Friendships destroyed by drugs

[Cainkane1]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

[Cleon]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.


So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago.


What do you guys think?

Frankly, that you're a jerk.

[Monketey Ghost]

I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers.

In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is.

I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices.

[Vic Vega]

It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

Such as?

[fuelair]

So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago.



Frankly, that you're a jerk.
You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types

[Gate2501]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

PCP is pretty hardcore, but I smoke pot occasionally and I am a pretty good father, devoted to my kid. I also drink a 6 pack one or two nights out of the week. I know, I'm so bad.

I doubt that he was "willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk". That sounds a lot more like your opinion of his character, than the reality of the situation(unless he is different from the other addicts I have known). Most people who are addicted to hardcore drugs like meth/heroin/PCP(?) have had their will completely broken. I doubt he was "willing" to do anything at all.

[Cleon]

You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types

I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying.

But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off.

So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk.

[Gate2501]

I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers.

In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is.


Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

[Monketey Ghost]

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

[Monketey Ghost]

Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

Never work in a hospital setting? I can have sympathy for and be personally repulsed by people I feel are just useless. My taxes pay for a lot of the folks I have to handle, for their care, and housing, and meals... and after you've been spat on or cussed out because you wouldn't provide what the doctors said they can't have etc. etc. it wears very thin.

What would be wrong would be to refuse to care for them.

[Cleon]

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it.

You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really.


And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him.

I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though.

I have a cousin who is a former heroin addict. If people treated her the way Cainkain treated his former friend, she'd likely still be addicted and living in a cardboard box somewhere (or worse). Instead, she got help, and is now a well-respected journalist and author.

You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades.

[AJM8125]

The guy might be in some sort of recovery program like a 12 step. Sometimes part of the process is to mend fences with those they've hurt in the past.

Just a thought.

[Safe-Keeper]

I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion).

On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie.

I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices.Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you.

[Monketey Ghost]

You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really. *snip*
...You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades.

You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right.

In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies.

As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types.

I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one...

[Monketey Ghost]

I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion).

On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie.

Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you.

Saw what you first wrote, but I'll address this instead. I won't treat addicts as equal to me, ever. Not when they're in the throes of the addiction anyways; they've debased themselves so much I'd have to lose a lot of self-respect to be on the same level.

It's asking for an embarrassing, what-was-I-thinking situation.

[Cainkane1]

Such as?
Screaming in my face for no reason. Stealing property from me and some things so bad that I don't feel comfortable discussing them in this forum. It was not just me. It was his girlfriend, later on his wife and his own daughter. He borrowed money from me he never intended to pay back. He actually broke into my house and I had to have him arrested. Its been a long time but some things stick with you. He never kept his word and was in fact a liar. I don't care how long ago it was. I'm not going through that again.

[Personal Grudge]

Having experienced friendships with both addicts and former-addicts... I can certainly empathize with the lack of trust that develops. However, when confronted with someone who claims to have cleaned up, I see more than just the following two options:

1) Turn the person away, wanting nothing to do with them.
2) Welcome them into my home with open arms.

There is always the possibility of meeting with them in more neutral social settings on occasion... a dinner at a restaurant on occasion. I would make it known that proof is in the pudding... I don't accept this change and recovery until it is proven to me. My family and home would be off-limits until I was satisfied with the former-addict's behavior.

This, of course, depends entirely on previous experience with this individual. If a former friend had broken into my home as Cainkane relates, I imagine my reaction may be identical.

[Cleon]

You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right.

In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies.

As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types.

I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one...

Fair 'nuff.

[Cainkane1]

I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying.

But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off.

So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk.
Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision.

[Xulld]

Sounds like you had your answers before you made this thread.

[quixotecoyote]

There may be a slight difference between,

"guy was high all the time so I quit hanging around him and still don't want to even though he's clean"

and

"guy committed crimes of aggression against me and my loved ones and I don't feel comfortable resuming that relationship"

[Uncayimmy]

Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision.

Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend.

[Tiktaalik]

You have a right to be friends or not be friends with whoever you want and you don't have to have a reason. If a person makes you uncomfortable and you don't get anything out of the relationship, why be friends? It's nice to give people chances and it's nice to try & help them, but it's not a requirement (unless you work in certain jobs).

[Miss_Kitt]

Boy, this thread is loaded for me.

I come from a family with alcoholism in the older generations and drug use in the younger. So I've walked on several of the "how do I handle him/her now?" roads with people much closer than friends.

First of all, cainkane, you do not ever have to open up yourself and your family/friends to a former abuser--whether the excuse for the abuse was drug-related, or not. You have the right to protect yourself. You don't need to apologize for refusing to take that risk, any more than you have to apologize for refusing to drive on a road that you consider too icy--even if some other people are comfortable with driving on it. You are responsible for making the choices on whom you choose to trust and deal with; and you must be (and seem to have no problem being) willing to live with the results of those choices.

On the other hand, if this person had/has positive qualities that make their company worth having, you could try the "Okay, let's meet for coffee on Thursday lunchtime" approach. That's a big If, and I recognize that. I have a former friend whom I am civil to if our paths cross, but I'd never turn my back on her for 14 seconds. (And she didn't even use anything, she's just a head case.) I have, conversely, regained a relationship with my brother, who still drinks more than I'd like, and probably gets high sometimes as well. But he has managed to get himself employed, a stable living situation, and a consistant phone number for several years, so I know this isn't just one more "I'm different now" talking. I cherish every time I hear his voice, because when he's straight he's one of the coolest people I've ever met.

It's one of those sticky, unhappy, "it all depends" situations in life. There are no simple answers. That you have a history of him doing awful things to those he claimed to love and value gives you some good impetus to say, "No thanks."

Don't feel bad about venting, either! Sometimes all you can do about these things is vent. You have just been reminded of a lot of bad memories, and of the loss of a friend you once had. That can stir up a lot of mixed feelings.

I belong to the "talk through it" school of thought, can you tell?

Regards, Miss Kitt

@ Magnifico: I know where you're coming from. My sister is an ICU/CCU nurse, and the amount of money, time, medicine and knowledge they spend on people who are going to do their level best to kill themselves when they get out can make you weep. She, like you, gives them the best medical care she can--but because of her professionalism, not because they have a warm place in her heart. I see nothing wrong with drawing those lines, in medicine or any other field!

[Cainkane1]

Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend.
I am superior to this person I once called friend. I'm not a thief and I never have been. I'm not obnoxious and I never have been. If I had had a wife and a child be damned if I would drink and pill pop it away. By the way his wife and daughter won't have anything to do with him either. I'm not entirely sure what all he did to them but to them he's history also. No one wants him around. His younger brother won't speak to him. I don't know what he did to him either. I do know that he was able to retire form the government working as an army chef after he left the army. He then became a butcher for a supermarket so he is gainfully employed but be that as it may. I never want to speak to him again and I told him so.

[Cleon]

I'm not obnoxious and I never have been.


:whistling

[shandyjan]

I can forgive people, but it doesnt mean I'd want to socialise with them years down the line. Not only for past mistrusts, but you also change yourself over the years and don't always want to go there again. Although maybe a few phone chats or emails would be ok., as I'm always interested to know what someone from my past is now up to.
The experiences I had with heroin addicts, 3 or 4 I knew died, two of them being nice people before their addictions. My friends partner was a speed user and turned psychotic, I wonder what happened to him but I would always have mistrust as he did some nasty things. I wouldnt give him my address even now.

[luchog]

Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him.

I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though.

Or simply self-preservation. I come from a family full of addicts, mostly junkies. Seen too many others. I have one uncle who got cleaned up, turned his life around, and is now an addiction-recovery counsellor. Have a lot of other relatives who are still junkies. I'm always suspicious of "recovered" addicts, because I've seen too many of them destroy their families. I have a "cleaned up" cousin who is currently in jail because of his addiction, ruining a decent career and alienating the entire non-junkie contingent of his family in the process.

Even when actually not using, too many "recovered" addicts are still manipulative bastards who care only about themselves.

[godofpie]

This thread needs a group hug:grouphug5:
If you want to know what an AA'er thinks, PM me.

[politas]

There comes a point where past actions can poison the well sufficiently that a friendship is just not possible. Even if this guy has completely cleaned up and is now a different person, Cainkane is likely to always be wondering when he'll flip out and start acting up again.

I think reformed junkies are much better off finding new friends so they can build relationships that don't have that kind of messed up past.

[Ysidro]

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

IAWTC. So much so that I can't add to it, just repeat it.

[Morrigan]

At first I thought he sounded like a jerk, too, until he pointed out what the guy had done, in which case, I'd go so far as to call him a fool for befriending someone like that again.

[Autolite]

I will afford Cainkane1 the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes one has no other option than to cut someone out of their life if they are a destructive influence. I've been there and done that with family. It's not an easy thing to do.

In any case, it's been my observation and experience that people never really change anyway. At best, they just become better at masking their true nature...

[Whiplash]

I think some may being too hard on Cainkane1. But he probably should have given more info in about the problems in the initial post to avoid it.

But I have at least one similar experience with a "friend". He was a drunk. Bad. We were friends for a long time. But as his alcholism got worse, so did his behavior. Stealing. Lying. Cheating. And saying some awful and vicious things to me when he was drunk. Many times.

One day when he called me, I laid it on the line and told him I didn't want to be friends anymore. He was sad and apologetic, but I told him firmly I was done. I haven't talked to him in at least 10 years.

If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times.

[luchog]

If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times.

I've given junkies the benefit of the doubt before, after they'd gone through rehab and were supposedly reformed and sober. I got burned for it (not badly, fortunately, but that's because I took precautions to limit the amount of damage that could be done). I won't do it again unless I have a very very good reason to believe that they've truly straightened themselves out. So far, I've only seen that happen once.

[Brainster]

Yes, the con-man type seldom reforms, he just graduates to more elaborate cons, and believe me, junkies are terrific con artists.

I had a roommate just after college who was amazing; we'd catch him time after time pulling some scam and he always had some great excuse and he was such a nice guy after all that we couldn't get angry about it. But I did get a padlock for my room.

The best was when he claimed to have won $2,000 in some sort of contest on the box of Little Friskies catfood. And of course won't show anybody the winning ticket, but boy he got people to buy him drinks for a couple months on the basis of how once he got paid he was going to hold a big party for all his buddies.

Years later I bumped into him and guess what? He had won the NJ lottery just recently and he could write me a check for $1,000 if I gave him $500 cash and just held onto it for a week or two while he collected his winnings. No kidding.

[Cainkane1]

I apologise. I should have been specific about the things he said and did. I do feel a bit sorry for him. His family is gone and his friends are gone. He's 61 and he looks 81 while I'm 62 and I look my age. He still has to work while I'm retired working a very easy job close to home. I've been told that his fellow workers dislike him because of his physical appearance. He looks like a drunk. I'm an atheist but the bible does say one thing I agree with. You reap what you sow.

[James Redford]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

You mention that he "apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army" and "When he got back from Vietnam ..." His military experiences would be enough to severely damage him psychically.

[James Redford]

I apologise. I should have been specific about the things he said and did. I do feel a bit sorry for him. His family is gone and his friends are gone. He's 61 and he looks 81 while I'm 62 and I look my age. He still has to work while I'm retired working a very easy job close to home. I've been told that his fellow workers dislike him because of his physical appearance. He looks like a drunk. I'm an atheist but the bible does say one thing I agree with. You reap what you sow.

From the information you provided, it sounds like the worst things that he sowed in his life were his military activities.

[Puppycow]

I wouldn't let him back into my life.
Better safe than sorry.

[Dancing David]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

Your choice, your call.

Personally it would depend on what he had done to hurt me. War is FUBAR and really messes people up. I tend to have my own boundaries and judge people on their behavior.

But there are some people I will not hang out with, they are very few and very specific.

[Dancing David]

Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

Um, it is rather a burden and nuisance in the hospital ED. I used to do mental health screenings in an ED setting. The addicts do clog up the system, they are whiny and demanding, they do chew up resourcses. And some create a real threat to ED staff.

But maybe, they get the same level of servive, they get the same care and concern, they are just a nuisance.

I got to know certain individuals fairly well.

[Dancing David]

Screaming in my face for no reason. Stealing property from me and some things so bad that I don't feel comfortable discussing them in this forum. It was not just me. It was his girlfriend, later on his wife and his own daughter. He borrowed money from me he never intended to pay back. He actually broke into my house and I had to have him arrested. Its been a long time but some things stick with you. He never kept his word and was in fact a liar. I don't care how long ago it was. I'm not going through that again.


Yup he would probably be on my short and specific list.

[Eddie Dane]

There comes a point where past actions can poison the well sufficiently that a friendship is just not possible. Even if this guy has completely cleaned up and is now a different person, Cainkane is likely to always be wondering when he'll flip out and start acting up again.

I think reformed junkies are much better off finding new friends so they can build relationships that don't have that kind of messed up past.

What he said.

I've been through a similar situation (theft, having the guy arrested, finding out what kind of crap he pulled on people who loved him, including a stunt I won't relate here because I don't think anyone would believe me).
You cannot repair that kind of history. You can forgive, but you cannot become buddy-buddy again.

[GreyICE]

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?
Your the person who knows the situation best. No matter how thorough of a description you give us, we'll never know the situation as well as you.

So the real question is "do we think your judgment is sound?" Since we certainly can't tell anything about the quality of the friendship, the person he was before he got hooked on drugs, the sincerity of his desire to hook up with an old friend versus the immense emotional burden such people can place on you (and I have a family member who was such - trust me, I know).

I don't know if your judgment is sound. I can't tell you anything about him, about you, about your emotional effects. I can tell you that the effects of long-term drug use vary from person to person in terms of emotional damage. I can tell you it's completely dependent on the person.

If I were to armchair psychologist this, I would say you feel guilty about it, and are looking to discuss the guilty feeling. We are probably the wrong people. Do you know anyone else who knew him?

[TX50]

You mention that he "apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army" and "When he got back from Vietnam ..." His military experiences would be enough to severely damage him psychically.

How do you know what his "military experiences" were? Military service per
se is not "psychically" damaging. I personally resent that implication. And
even if he did do a tour in S.E. Asia the odds are hugely against him actually
having been anywhere near the enemy.

[arimaic1]

I have made so many mistakes of one sort of another in my life that getting to understand where I was made a great deal of letting in other people possible. I have been labeled as someone who is "emotionally flat" sometimes and my view of friendship is maybe the reason I have few friends.

First. I do not associate with anyone who presently smokes cigarettes on an up close and personal basis. At work, I will befriend them and I will get along and if I was asked a favor, everyone gets one. But, to take someone in as a friend who smokes is accepting the choice they make and even taking on some of the personal values that person has.

I do not talk nice to my friends. I do not pry in their business but if they are out of line, I wait (as Dale Carnegie teaches) and avoid an arguement. Instead, I try to understand what or where something is coming from. Once I have an understanding of what is going on, I call them out on it. For instance, a friend I have had for over twelve years I have lost because he got married. That was not the problem. While he was married, he decided to have a double life. He got another woman pregnant. He did not tell his present wife. As a friend, he has broken some cardinal "guy code" rules I believe in. It is my belief. Not his. I told him. You do not commit to one person who is also giving her all to you and then go behind her back and do it with someone else too. If you should do this, the only right course of action is to come clean. Because it is a breaking of interpersonal integrity and you have betraying the trust and faith of another for your gain, but you also made a baby. You are responsible for your actions involving the faith, belief and trust another person puts into you. You are responsible for being honest. However, that is the value I subscribe to. If he does not, that is his business and I have no need of him ever again in my company.

There are too many great people who do live by some creed or code. I have known several addicts who are recovering or what not. Many of them have broken the "cycle of addiciton" which is more the root cause of why they are doing something wrong in the first place which usually has nothing directly to do with the drugs.

With the information you provided about this person. You have held on to be yelled at in the face, turned away from and wrongly criticized by someone you might have been trying to help. This person has been using people to enable himself in what he might say is friendship to cover that. You were certainly being used as an enabler when he was screaming at you. Here is the way I feel on addiction, it is a choice at some point. You can judge people on the choices they make because it predisposes an outcome that is going to be good or bad. Just because someone "gets religion" and gets right in their life does not at all require you to accept them back. Nor does it make you a jerk. It makes you cautious, and if you have been the good steward of a friendship like that in the past where the other person fouls it up. It was their fault.

However, in keeping with the ancient Persian tradition of taarof, never let anyone know your true intentions or misgivings. Much like the Miranda rights, what you say can and will be used against you. Rather than seemingly turn the guy away overtly, use this to your advantage by saying very little and committing to nothing. All the while, let only the words you say to another person be the words of accomplishment, of being can-do and of what you want to occur. To be positive when your nature would tell you to be negative is a good thing. Never be a chump though. You are not taking this person in, but by not directly rejecting them, you do not turn this person into a potential enemy seeking some petty revenge on your "rejection".

Rather, things will just cool down without you having to explain or justify yourself to this person.

[Eddie Dane]

Woomp!

Return of the zombie thread part two.

I've been thinking and I think I should add one more comment to this discussion.

Previously I told you about a friend who got into heroin and did some things that make it completely impossible to ever be friends with him again.

However, I also know a counter example and I think that I should share it.

At the time I had two friends who got into drugs in a bad way. The started using heroin and lived together in reeeealy dirty dirty apartment down the street from me.

Friend number one I described above, but I was much closer to friend number two.

I was angry at him for letting himself be dragged into this mess by number One. So as soon as I understood where this was going, I dropped them like a hot potato.
Meaning: I still talked to them, but I made no effort to talk them out of doing drugs. I mean it was obvious that it was bad idea. I had no insight to share apart from 'Are you guys nuts, or what?'.

Obviously they both had serious issues they wanted to get away from.

I'll skip the whole really dramatic and turbulent period they went through for brevity.


Now. Friend number Two at some point intimated that he wanted out of this crap and we had a long talk. I had recently been on a trip to Israel, where I worked as a volunteer on a Kibbutz.

So, we decided that the best thing to do was put a big distance between him and his psycho buddy, his dealer, and his home town in general.

He went cold turkey, borrowed money from his dad, got a ticket and disappeared to Jewland. But not before relapsing and scoring heroin right before he got on the plane.

He dropped of the radar for a few years.

Then I went to a huge new years party in Rotterdam in 1996. And there on a packed dance floor I spot him, he sees me. We immediately shook hands, started patting each other on the back and shoulders and hugged.
That's when I noticed he'd changed from a stick figure into a barrel chested lad.

We still hang out. He's a great guy. Married with two children now.

The thing is: In hindsight I was quite ashamed that I'd given up on him just like that.

The other guy is a bastard. If he was drowning, I'd throw him a cinder block.

I didn't want to leave this thread with the idea that druggies are never worth the trouble. He certainly was, and I didn't do enough.

[Cainkane1]

I have made so many mistakes of one sort of another in my life that getting to understand where I was made a great deal of letting in other people possible. I have been labeled as someone who is "emotionally flat" sometimes and my view of friendship is maybe the reason I have few friends.

First. I do not associate with anyone who presently smokes cigarettes on an up close and personal basis. At work, I will befriend them and I will get along and if I was asked a favor, everyone gets one. But, to take someone in as a friend who smokes is accepting the choice they make and even taking on some of the personal values that person has.

I do not talk nice to my friends. I do not pry in their business but if they are out of line, I wait (as Dale Carnegie teaches) and avoid an arguement. Instead, I try to understand what or where something is coming from. Once I have an understanding of what is going on, I call them out on it. For instance, a friend I have had for over twelve years I have lost because he got married. That was not the problem. While he was married, he decided to have a double life. He got another woman pregnant. He did not tell his present wife. As a friend, he has broken some cardinal "guy code" rules I believe in. It is my belief. Not his. I told him. You do not commit to one person who is also giving her all to you and then go behind her back and do it with someone else too. If you should do this, the only right course of action is to come clean. Because it is a breaking of interpersonal integrity and you have betraying the trust and faith of another for your gain, but you also made a baby. You are responsible for your actions involving the faith, belief and trust another person puts into you. You are responsible for being honest. However, that is the value I subscribe to. If he does not, that is his business and I have no need of him ever again in my company.

There are too many great people who do live by some creed or code. I have known several addicts who are recovering or what not. Many of them have broken the "cycle of addiciton" which is more the root cause of why they are doing something wrong in the first place which usually has nothing directly to do with the drugs.

With the information you provided about this person. You have held on to be yelled at in the face, turned away from and wrongly criticized by someone you might have been trying to help. This person has been using people to enable himself in what he might say is friendship to cover that. You were certainly being used as an enabler when he was screaming at you. Here is the way I feel on addiction, it is a choice at some point. You can judge people on the choices they make because it predisposes an outcome that is going to be good or bad. Just because someone "gets religion" and gets right in their life does not at all require you to accept them back. Nor does it make you a jerk. It makes you cautious, and if you have been the good steward of a friendship like that in the past where the other person fouls it up. It was their fault.

However, in keeping with the ancient Persian tradition of taarof, never let anyone know your true intentions or misgivings. Much like the Miranda rights, what you say can and will be used against you. Rather than seemingly turn the guy away overtly, use this to your advantage by saying very little and committing to nothing. All the while, let only the words you say to another person be the words of accomplishment, of being can-do and of what you want to occur. To be positive when your nature would tell you to be negative is a good thing. Never be a chump though. You are not taking this person in, but by not directly rejecting them, you do not turn this person into a potential enemy seeking some petty revenge on your "rejection".

Rather, things will just cool down without you having to explain or justify yourself to this person.
I like this. Good sound advice. Incidentally I love your writing style.

[Cainkane1]

Woomp!

Return of the zombie thread part two.

I've been thinking and I think I should add one more comment to this discussion.

Previously I told you about a friend who got into heroin and did some things that make it completely impossible to ever be friends with him again.

However, I also know a counter example and I think that I should share it.

At the time I had two friends who got into drugs in a bad way. The started using heroin and lived together in reeeealy dirty dirty apartment down the street from me.

Friend number one I described above, but I was much closer to friend number two.

I was angry at him for letting himself be dragged into this mess by number One. So as soon as I understood where this was going, I dropped them like a hot potato.
Meaning: I still talked to them, but I made no effort to talk them out of doing drugs. I mean it was obvious that it was bad idea. I had no insight to share apart from 'Are you guys nuts, or what?'.

Obviously they both had serious issues they wanted to get away from.

I'll skip the whole really dramatic and turbulent period they went through for brevity.


Now. Friend number Two at some point intimated that he wanted out of this crap and we had a long talk. I had recently been on a trip to Israel, where I worked as a volunteer on a Kibbutz.

So, we decided that the best thing to do was put a big distance between him and his psycho buddy, his dealer, and his home town in general.

He went cold turkey, borrowed money from his dad, got a ticket and disappeared to Jewland. But not before relapsing and scoring heroin right before he got on the plane.

He dropped of the radar for a few years.

Then I went to a huge new years party in Rotterdam in 1996. And there on a packed dance floor I spot him, he sees me. We immediately shook hands, started patting each other on the back and shoulders and hugged.
That's when I noticed he'd changed from a stick figure into a barrel chested lad.

We still hang out. He's a great guy. Married with two children now.

The thing is: In hindsight I was quite ashamed that I'd given up on him just like that.

The other guy is a bastard. If he was drowning, I'd throw him a cinder block.

I didn't want to leave this thread with the idea that druggies are never worth the trouble. He certainly was, and I didn't do enough.
I understand your reaction to both druggie one and two.

[Symbol]

1. Your most important priority is you, your lifestyle, your happiness. "Next Thursday lunchtime" is precious to you because it's the only one you'll ever have.

So although my own tendency would probably be to do the occasional lunch thing (mostly out of curiosity, an academic exercise, to be honest), if there are more important people who have earned their place in your life to whom you should rather dedicate that time, then don't give that time to someone who hasn't earned a place in your social calendar.

2. But... thinking back to what drew you to him 30 years ago - is there a chance that some of that still remains? Perhaps if you don't give him a chance you'll never know the answer, never know whether he could once again contribute something of value to your life.

3. Do you have any idea why he's making contact now? Is it part of a 12-Step programme, or is it really about you? If it's just one of the steps then you've played your part. Walk away with no guilt.

[Cainkane1]

Your the person who knows the situation best. No matter how thorough of a description you give us, we'll never know the situation as well as you.

So the real question is "do we think your judgment is sound?" Since we certainly can't tell anything about the quality of the friendship, the person he was before he got hooked on drugs, the sincerity of his desire to hook up with an old friend versus the immense emotional burden such people can place on you (and I have a family member who was such - trust me, I know).

I don't know if your judgment is sound. I can't tell you anything about him, about you, about your emotional effects. I can tell you that the effects of long-term drug use vary from person to person in terms of emotional damage. I can tell you it's completely dependent on the person.

If I were to armchair psychologist this, I would say you feel guilty about it, and are looking to discuss the guilty feeling. We are probably the wrong people. Do you know anyone else who knew him?
Yes I know his ex wife and his daughter. I know other ex friends of his. No one will have anything to do with him even though he's clean and sober and has been for several years. His presence reminds me of the things he put all of us through. He needs to find other relationships. None of us ever want to see him again.

[Cainkane1]

1. Your most important priority is you, your lifestyle, your happiness. "Next Thursday lunchtime" is precious to you because it's the only one you'll ever have.

So although my own tendency would probably be to do the occasional lunch thing (mostly out of curiosity, an academic exercise, to be honest), if there are more important people who have earned their place in your life to whom you should rather dedicate that time, then don't give that time to someone who hasn't earned a place in your social calendar.

2. But... thinking back to what drew you to him 30 years ago - is there a chance that some of that still remains? Perhaps if you don't give him a chance you'll never know the answer, never know whether he could once again contribute something of value to your life.

3. Do you have any idea why he's making contact now? Is it part of a 12-Step programme, or is it really about you? If it's just one of the steps then you've played your part. Walk away with no guilt.
1. Life is short. Why waste time with him?

2. He was a decent enough guy when I knew him in school. A bit bossy but he was overall good company.


3. He's contacting a lot of people he used to know. He was living in Colorado for many years and now he's back here in Georgia. I thought I'd never see him again and that suited me just fine. It still does. Other people in his life feel the same way.

[Dogdoctor]

One has to look out for ones self however addicted people often have to lose everything before they recognize the seriousness of their own problem. Once they do they need to reestablish a social support network. The question is "Is this for real or will he just go back to the old ways?" There is always a chance he will go back. It's your choice if you want to be a part of that or not.

[Cainkane1]

One has to look out for ones self however addicted people often have to lose everything before they recognize the seriousness of their own problem. Once they do they need to reestablish a social support network. The question is "Is this for real or will he just go back to the old ways?" There is always a chance he will go back. It's your choice if you want to be a part of that or not.
I hate to be brutally blunt but I don't care if he has changed.

[Dogdoctor]

I hate to be brutally blunt but I don't care if he has changed.

In which case why did you start this thread?

[Cainkane1]

In which case why did you start this thread?
I wanted other people to share similar stories with me.

[Dogdoctor]

I wanted other people to share similar stories with me.
So this really belongs in the community forum.

[applecorped]

:whistling

Stop beingacting like a jerk.

[GreyICE]

Stop beingacting like a jerk.

Do as I SAY! Not as I DO!

[applecorped]

Do as I SAY! Not as I DO!


:rolleyes: - okay.