www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com - Volunteers Needed

[wardenclyffe]

I think www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com is harmless. I also think it's pointless.

I was a big supporter of UncaYimmy's initial attempt at a moderated one-on-one thread with VfF. I took some heat for supporting it, but I felt that if both parties in the thread participated in the way it was originally presented, it had a chance of being beneficial. VfF chose to quit participating very early on. Others were worried that VfF would only post in the moderated thread with UncaYimmy. I knew she'd continue posting in the open threads. She likes posting too much to confine herself to a moderated interview. Frankly, we all do.

I think that's the main reason that UncaYimmy's site exists, because the moderators keep moderating. But it appears that the JREF Forum will always have an unmoderated thread about VfF. As soon as one thread is moderated or shut down, someone starts a new one. Right now, we have our choice between the split-thread from this one and the thread called "More Vision From Feeling Claims." Who knows? Those threads may end up being moderated, too.

On UncaYimmy's site, one gets the immediate satisfaction of posting something and being able to read it a second later. I don't know why this is so important, but it is. I feel it to. It's far less satisfying to post in a moderated thread, so UncaYimmy's site is there for instant gratification, but since there's always an open thread here, there's no need to go to UncaYimmy's.

Also, for now at least, it's like a private club for those who've followed all the VfF threads here. Yes, anyone can join, but the only place one will learn about it is here. Newcomers here are not treated particularly well in the VfF threads. They are told (not directly, but in no uncertain terms) that their opinions and suggestions don't matter unless they've read every post in every VfF thread. I can't believe how one member of the FACT Skeptics group began posting in the first thread and he was basically drummed out of the forum. He could have been a valuable tool, since he meets her face to face each month, but he did not feel welcome here. Aside from how VfF is treated, this is the bullying behavior of "meanies."

There's no one person to whom I'm referring. Some are guilty and some are not, but the impression I get is of a school of sharks waiting to attack. I think many more people would be open to skepticism and critical thinking if they encountered skeptics who were a little less abrasive.

I know that we've all gotten frustrated with VfF for very good reasons. I know a lot of posts were made out of frustration. But being frustrated and angry is not in and of itself a reason to post. VfF is not the only compulsive poster in these threads. We all like to be read, including me---I'm posting right now.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the new website will grow into something significant and important. I hope so. But it currently seems like a small club of folks who want to stop VfF, but fear they might succeed at the same time. They seem to love the game as much as she does. Everyone's name is all over the threads here, not just hers (and mine).

I don't know. I don't feel like I've made a single clear point here, but people are reading me, and sometimes that's all that matters.

Ward

ETA: For what it's worth, I've read every post by and about VfF. I don't believe that that means my opinion is more valuable.

[lionking]

Very good post ward.

[Uncayimmy]

I think www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com is harmless. I also think it's pointless.
LOL! That's how you open a post!

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the new website will grow into something significant and important. I hope so. But it currently seems like a small club of folks who want to stop VfF, but fear they might succeed at the same time. They seem to love the game as much as she does. Everyone's name is all over the threads here, not just hers (and mine).
I hope it grows well beyond where it's at today. We'll see how it goes. I would not disagree that we also like the game (at least I do). For me, at least, it beats the hell out of some of the silly threads over in Community.

ETA: For what it's worth, I've read every post by and about VfF. I don't believe that that means my opinion is more valuable.

I'd much rather argue with someone over the interpretation of facts than argue with someone who doesn't know the facts.

[wardenclyffe]

UncaYimmy said:
"I'd much rather argue with someone over the interpretation of facts than argue with someone who doesn't know the facts."

Yeah, me too. Unfortunately that limits your argument group to about a half dozen people who all basically agree with you anyway (except VfF). I also think there are ways to get people up to speed other than telling them to read thousands of posts. It's easier to say "read the posts," but we all know that no one's going to. It's more work to (gently) explain what roads we've already been down and what tests we've already suggested. It is more work, but I think it ultimately pays off.

This might be something that the new website can do. If the thread about VfF's many, many claims turns into a concise listing of what she claims and what tests she's rejected, then that will be a handy link for newcomers. If people can read a quick list of everything from communicating with Australian ghost-dinosaurs (outside of Australia) to seeing individual nitrogen atoms through a metal canister, they'll get caught up fairly quickly.

Again, I hope the website turns into something valuable, but right now I don't see what it offers that I don't already find here.

Ward

[Uncayimmy]

Again, I hope the website turns into something valuable, but right now I don't see what it offers that I don't already find here.


Volunteers are needed - that's why I posted here with a clearly unfinished site. It's a LOT to distill. Even if you took one piece, say the fiasco with arranging the "study" in the park, and broke it down into something manageable, that would be great.

[wardenclyffe]

I knew you were gonna turn this around and try to con me into doing work.

Ward

[Uncayimmy]

I knew you were gonna turn this around and try to con me into doing work.

Okay, that was sorta funny. But being a VFF fan, a better response would have been.

I intend to do that. Eventually.

[wardenclyffe]

I had forgotten that VfF always accuses you of trying to turn things around on you. I wasn't trying to imitate her. I'm just really lazy.

Ward

[desertgal]

Also, for now at least, it's like a private club for those who've followed all the VfF threads here. Yes, anyone can join, but the only place one will learn about it is here. Newcomers here are not treated particularly well in the VfF threads. They are told (not directly, but in no uncertain terms) that their opinions and suggestions don't matter unless they've read every post in every VfF thread.

My only objection is when they are unclear about the extent and nature of VfF's claims, and, yet, choose to armchair quarterback. That defies the principles of critical thinking.

I can't believe how one member of the FACT Skeptics group began posting in the first thread and he was basically drummed out of the forum. He could have been a valuable tool, since he meets her face to face each month, but he did not feel welcome here. Aside from how VfF is treated, this is the bullying behavior of "meanies."

Point taken. That WAS my fault, and I apologize.

There's no one person to whom I'm referring. Some are guilty and some are not, but the impression I get is of a school of sharks waiting to attack. I think many more people would be open to skepticism and critical thinking if they encountered skeptics who were a little less abrasive.

Point taken. I freely admit, I can be abrasive. I don't intend to "attack"-I simply have little patience when someone so intelligent, and has so much going for her, wastes so much time and energy with what is, essentially, a fantasy. There isn't anything wrong with fantasy, we all indulge in them to some degree or another, but I don't think anyone here would argue that Anita takes it way too far. I'd react much the same way if one of my kids did the same thing. She could be doing something far more productive and real. It's a waste. And, of course, her arrogance, even with a veneer of civility, is aggravating for everyone.

But, I will try to be less abrasive. :)

[Akhenaten]

There seems to have been some discussion on whether VfF wll eventually take her show on the road and start putting people at risk, and whether this should be stopped from happening.


Please don't refer to my ability as possibly being an "unusual processing error". It leads to very useful scientific hypotheses that I can use in my career and it has lead to very many interesting accurate observations.


What do my observations add to research? By doing what I described in an earlier post and call "vibrational algebra" I can suggest the new design of molecular structures of medicines for specific purposes.


As an instrument it would function independently of me. It would read the vibrational pattern that corresponds to the vibrational aspect of for instance the molecule. (Vibrational aspect is what I and many physicists believe to be the more fundamental composition of matter, on a scale deeper than the atoms.) Vibrational information from different sources could be combined to calculate a resulting vibrational aspect and make predictions, and is based on not numbers but on the natural interaction of vibrational patterns. I am headed toward taking a Masters in Optical Engineering and who knows, maybe I will build such an instrument.


Don't worry, by the time I have test with the IIG I am sure there will be some publicity and hey maybe you can see me on TV and tell everybody that you talked to me back in the days?


My knowledge in anatomy and medicine is much more vast from the perceptions of my ability, than they are based on knowledge that I've learned in the world.


The truth is that I receive accurate information about the health of people. The question is is this the case of extrasensory perception or are there other, down to earth explanations to this?


The information I receive contradicts with what my assumptions would have been. I can use cold reading when I use my ordinary senses but that only leads to assumptions, and I am always more confident in what I "have seen" with the ability.


The ability that I want to test is detection of medical information.


What's wrong with you is that you can not accept that I have to meet you in person in order to attempt a psychic medical diagnose.


My medical information from live persons is very reliable and always reliable.


My information from live persons is incredibly specific and never vague. Vasectomy. Not "you've had some sort of operation in your pelvic region, or is it maybe the abdomen?". Reproductive cysts. Not "there's something wrong with your reproductive system, is it perhaps that there is a pain, or that there might be cancer?" Cramp of the small intestine in a very specific region below the sternum, 1.5 x 4 cm. Not "it's like you have a cramp in your stomach sometimes, perhaps it is one of the intestines?"


I approach having a medical diagnose test with live persons very passionately.


I meet with a person for the very first time and we've only known each other for a few hours. I decide to confide in him that I perceive health information and ask if I could try with him.


I sense plenty of health issues with the little girl and will send the information to you in a private post, at which you are entirely free to post it here if you so choose.


*The baby's body contains more water than is normal for babies of her age and size. Normally babies contain more of the dense, yellow fat tissue than she does. She has water where fat should be. She is also lacking on nutrients, specifically the ones that build tissue (fat and protein) as opposed to vitamins and minerals. There is a lot of water in the front forehead part of the head, although not causing any pressure against the brain and is harmless.
*The liver has an issue that would probably be helped by certain vitamins. The liver is darker than normal and slightly denser and harder than normal.
*There may be a slight drawback in what her awareness and learning level should be, however as an older girl and grown woman she would be fine.


I am sorry to hear about the little girl's health problems. We conclude from my picture test with you that I am unable to detect health problems from pictures posted over the internet. Thank you for clarifying this, even though the results were as I had expected. And let's proceed toward medical diagnose with live persons.


I have made correct diagnose from pictures and television in the past, and whether truly so or due to confirmation bias I can not recall a single incorrect instance.I have verified information from television, for instance being from Sweden when I describe the health of lesser known American celebrities on television who I have never seen before, friends confirm the information. These aspects of the perceptions are less frequent and not as interesting as what I perceive from persons in life.


If there were a set of rules and regulations for psychic readings I would like to read them. How about you Forum members type up some rules? Even with the best of intentions I realize that dispensing medical information can be potentially harmful *, although I have my own idea of proper conduct I would love to read more about it.


Etcetera . . .


However, this post best sums up my concerns in this regard:



I am concerned with the possible risks involved and although I take all measures I can think of (except that of completely abstaining from giving out the information) I worry that I might cause some harm without intending or expecting it. *




I worry about it too. That's why I think Unca Yimmy's site is a good idea.


* Bolding provided by Por-Nepher, "The Rock", Amunsneffet. Contact us soon for all your quote mining and other quarrying needs.

[Moochie]

I think www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com) is harmless. I also think it's pointless.

I was a big supporter of UncaYimmy's initial attempt at a moderated one-on-one thread with VfF. I took some heat for supporting it, but I felt that if both parties in the thread participated in the way it was originally presented, it had a chance of being beneficial. VfF chose to quit participating very early on. Others were worried that VfF would only post in the moderated thread with UncaYimmy. I knew she'd continue posting in the open threads. She likes posting too much to confine herself to a moderated interview. Frankly, we all do.

I think that's the main reason that UncaYimmy's site exists, because the moderators keep moderating. But it appears that the JREF Forum will always have an unmoderated thread about VfF. As soon as one thread is moderated or shut down, someone starts a new one. Right now, we have our choice between the split-thread from this one and the thread called "More Vision From Feeling Claims." Who knows? Those threads may end up being moderated, too.

On UncaYimmy's site, one gets the immediate satisfaction of posting something and being able to read it a second later. I don't know why this is so important, but it is. I feel it to. It's far less satisfying to post in a moderated thread, so UncaYimmy's site is there for instant gratification, but since there's always an open thread here, there's no need to go to UncaYimmy's.

Also, for now at least, it's like a private club for those who've followed all the VfF threads here. Yes, anyone can join, but the only place one will learn about it is here. Newcomers here are not treated particularly well in the VfF threads. They are told (not directly, but in no uncertain terms) that their opinions and suggestions don't matter unless they've read every post in every VfF thread. I can't believe how one member of the FACT Skeptics group began posting in the first thread and he was basically drummed out of the forum. He could have been a valuable tool, since he meets her face to face each month, but he did not feel welcome here. Aside from how VfF is treated, this is the bullying behavior of "meanies."

There's no one person to whom I'm referring. Some are guilty and some are not, but the impression I get is of a school of sharks waiting to attack. I think many more people would be open to skepticism and critical thinking if they encountered skeptics who were a little less abrasive.

I know that we've all gotten frustrated with VfF for very good reasons. I know a lot of posts were made out of frustration. But being frustrated and angry is not in and of itself a reason to post. VfF is not the only compulsive poster in these threads. We all like to be read, including me---I'm posting right now.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the new website will grow into something significant and important. I hope so. But it currently seems like a small club of folks who want to stop VfF, but fear they might succeed at the same time. They seem to love the game as much as she does. Everyone's name is all over the threads here, not just hers (and mine).

I don't know. I don't feel like I've made a single clear point here, but people are reading me, and sometimes that's all that matters.

Ward

ETA: For what it's worth, I've read every post by and about VfF. I don't believe that that means my opinion is more valuable.


I'm in agreement with most of what you've said, wardenclyffe, with the exception being your statement about UY's site being pointless. To that portion of your post I've highlighted I would add that UY's site will grow into something significant and important when VfF's site (and VfF herself) grow into something significant and important. :)


M.

[Tricky]

I've just done another large cut-and-paste to AAH for some of the posts that were mostly insults and bickering. It wasn't surgery, it was butchery, so don't complain if you still find some fat clinging on.

Please folks, try to discuss this without becoming personal. I realize there are strong "feelings" involved, but that doesn't mean you have to start pointing fingers.

I'm trying to avoid handing out infractions like candy, but I will if I have to. Calm down. Quit insulting each other. Talk about the topic or don't post.

Thank you VERY much.
Tricky

[Jeff Corey]

I must say all this criticism of the criticizers is a whole load of pony I Adam and Eve.,.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I cannot stop what I am not doing. What I need you to stop doing is accusing me lying when you have have no basis for such an accusation.Jim Carr, you are wrong about many of the things you say about me with utter conviction. That "nobody ever accused you of not having synesthesia", "you call me brilliant because you always agree with me" (or was it someone else who said that?), "you are diagnosing people who are not your close family, friends, or local Skeptics" and making it sound as if I am offering psychic readings to people when I am not. Jim don't act this way.
The issue I was addressing was someone arguing that you are unknown outside of this forum and that you are doing nothing outside of this forum. That assumption is incorrect. Your Wall o' Text does not contradict my statement.If you realize that there is only one of me and there are some ten posters on the threads at any given time, then if I reply to everyone then of course that adds up to a wall of text. I have every right to reply to people's posts to me or about me.
Therefore, you must stop accusing me of lying.To stop accusing you of lying, because you state that I am writing walls of text? :confused: I'd still say you are wrong about many of the things you say with utter conviction!
UncaYimmy, it's not like I'm setting up a table and saying "come and get your psychic readings!" Stop it.
I never said you were. Stop it.
I also think it is irresponsible for VFF to medically diagnose people since she is not a qualified medical professional or even a layperson using reliable data as a source. VFF defends her actions by downplaying them. For example, she says that she only diagnoses "close friends" and family. When pushed she says that "close friends" includes people she just met that very same day. This surely implies what I asked you to stop doing and what you then denied having done.
I think FACT is foolish for engaging you in your "study" under conditions they do not endorse. It is all foolish isn't it. Everything. This whole investigation. :rolleyes:
Your study page (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/study.html) is littered with references to the group and how much they have helped you. In fact you mention Dr. Carlson's name 23 times. Waiver or not, you are using their credibility. Well excuse me for making an online documentary about my life as a paranormal claimant. I know that my study is not a scientific test and I have no expectation that working with certain people would promote it to being one. I am just giving credit where credit goes, and I would think that a Skeptics group would be proud in having been involved with either proving or falsifying a paranormal claim, which ever it will end up being. Just like I keep calling you Brilliant, UncaYimmy! :)

[VisionFromFeeling]

It is perfectly valid and also highly necessary to bring up the possible concern that a person who experiences medical perceptions might be tempted to begin to practice psychic readings and dispensing medical information and medical advice to persons, without having a license to do so and also charging lots of money (http://brentenergywork.com/SERVICES.htm). However, to come at me with full force as if I had already done this or as if I was planning on doing this is just not right.

[Cuddles]

There have been enough chances given. The bickering, personal attacks and derailing stop now.

There are three threads currently open to discuss these topics. this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138995) for general discussion about VisionFromFeeling's claims and study attempts, this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138746) for discussion about UncaYimmy's site, and this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=131343) for the original moderated interview should VisionFromFeeling choose to continue with it.

All threads on this topic have either ended up being moderated or closed due to the apparent inability of some people to stay civil and on topic. Do not create any more new threads in order to avoid the moderation in place on these threads.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I just realized something. Why is there a www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com when I do not publicly offer psychic medical readings nor have any intentions of doing so and when I say that if I did I would only charge $0.50 for it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4570308&postcount=183), and meanwhile there is THIS (http://brentenergywork.com/SERVICES.htm)?

UncaYimmy, please be so kind as to respond?

[Ashles]

I just realized something. Why is there a www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com) when I do not publicly offer psychic medical readings nor have any intentions of doing so and when I say that if I did I would only charge $0.50 for it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4570308&postcount=183), and meanwhile there is THIS (http://brentenergywork.com/SERVICES.htm)?

UncaYimmy, please be so kind as to respond?
Just because someone sets up a website dedicated to questioning a paranormal claim, does not mean they have to set up websites dedicated to challenging all paranormal claims.

I'm sure nobody here thinks the other site you link to should be charging what they are charging. I'm sure nobody here thinks they can do what they claim.
But Unca Yimmy's website is about your claims.

If you feel that strongly about the other person, set up a website questioning their claims.

[GeeMack]

I just realized something. Why is there a www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com when I do not publicly offer psychic medical readings nor have any intentions of doing so and when I say that if I did I would only charge $0.50 for it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4570308&postcount=183), and meanwhile there is THIS (http://brentenergywork.com/SERVICES.htm)?

UncaYimmy, please be so kind as to respond?


Here's an idea. Why don't you go over to UncaYimmy's place and read the FAQ (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/FAQ/tabid/295/Default.aspx)?

[Uncayimmy]

I just realized something. Why is there a www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com when I do not publicly offer psychic medical readings nor have any intentions of doing so and when I say that if I did I would only charge $0.50 for it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4570308&postcount=183), and meanwhile there is THIS (http://brentenergywork.com/SERVICES.htm)?

UncaYimmy, please be so kind as to respond?

If you think she is a fraud, then why don't you create a website to debunk her claims?

FYI, I contacted the NC Attorney General's Office about her a few months ago and announced my actions on this board. What have you done about her?

As for why nobody else on the planet has created a debunking website for her, I don't know, and I don't care. I chose to make a site to debunk your claims. Are you asserting that I am under some obligation to list out all actual and potential frauds in the world and justify why I chose you over all the others? Sorry, but I am not going to engage you in that discussion.

Besides, what I am writing on my website is no different than what I have written here. You refer to my site as a "fan site" on your own website. So, please don't play the victim here. Were it not for your very public actions, I would never have heard of you or felt the need to debunk your numerous fanciful claims (close to 20 claims are documented on my site (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/afv/topicsview/aff/2/Default.aspx)so far).

No Intention to do Pyschic Readings? Hah!
I don't believe you, and here's why.

For a while on your website you were offering to do drawings of fetuses inside the womb. You offered to sell drawings of your perceptions. Currently your website is soliciting people to pay your travel expenses to come out and do a "study" with them. You say that people can book you to check you out scientifically or "see me perform as a psychic."
http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/bookmeup.html

And then we have the things you have written on this site:

I have also saved a life because of my ability. I was working at a nursing home and without even knowing that one of our elders was a diabetic (since I was new to this building and working on the lowest level where I am not required to know all the health information of the residents), yet I detected dangerously low blood sugar which was then confirmed by the other staff and with a measurement of the blood sugar level.

I wish I had a radio show... Wouldn't be interesting though because I detect a lot of interesting health information in celebrities too (celebrities are people!) - but I respect their privacy and integrity and won't tell.

I can not discuss the personal health condition of persons here or in other ways in public. Surely celebrities have chosen a public life but surely there are things that rightly belong to their personal life. Now if a celebrity contacts me and wants to know what I sense I will tell them in person. None of us are going to rush to the celebrities and tell them that some psychic said this or that.

Now it sounds as if I meet with people and do this but I do not. If turns out I am really good at what I do, I am sure many people would be interested in meeting with me and finding out what is going on in their bodies. Also it is good for people to get confirmation for their pain and health problems, especially from someone who reaches the same conclusions on their own and independently.

And, since even if I pass a paranormal test of scientific standard and receive the title of "true medical psychic" it does not give me the licence to dispense medical information in the way that physicians do. Even if I were never incorrect, there would be a disclaimer and a reminder to continue placing your trust in conventional medicine.

I have to see the person to receive information. I detect information about the health of celebrities when I see them on television, but I'd prefer to meet with a person. My radio show would have me meet with people and describe what I see on radio to the listeners. I would love to try this with you anyway. Is there any way you could send me a video of yourself? Do you have a webcam?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that you have intentions well beyond keeping this a personal thing with close friends and family. Of course, that was obvious the day you created your website and told the whole world about your abilities.

[Farencue]

30th March 2009, 05:25 PM #21
VisionFromFeeling

First of all, UncaYimmy thank you for setting up www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com! It is such a beautiful nice and pink site, and up to what's posted there today I don't disagree with any of it! So, way to go! I'm thinking of not posting there, because I might ruin it. But I'll be reading it very closely.

[Uncayimmy]

For those interested, the site is starting to evolve. There is a discussion forum called The Claims (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/afv/topicsview/aff/2/Default.aspx)where 23 of VFF's claims have been described. The claims outlined so far are:


Being a Star Person (not human)
General Paranormal Claim
Remote Smelling
Remote Tasting
Chemical Detection (general)
Tasting What Others Taste
Color Blindness
Telepathy
Chemical Identification - Specific Chemicals
Full Bladder Detection
Recent Meal Detection
Some Specific Medical Conditions
Identifying Crystals via ESP
Revolutionary War Ghosts
Sensing Animals
Insects - Analyzing Chemicals and Communication
Bacteria - Analyzing via Vibrational Information
Plant Molecules - Analyzing via Vibrational Information
Seeing Specific Areas Inside the Human Body
Super Hearing
Synesthesia
Smelling Inside Human Body
Medical Diagnosis via Photo and Video


At the risk of speaking for the mods, this thread is not for discussing the specifics of the above claims. You can do that on the my site if you want or use the moderated thread here (if applicable). If you have other claims you'd like to see included, please stop by the site and offer your assistance.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Interesting how Jim has avoided answering my question. It's been awfully quiet here since I posted that. I see a pattern, and it's NOT based on vibrational information.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Interesting how Jim has avoided answering my question. It's been awfully quiet here since I posted that. I see a pattern, and it's NOT based on vibrational information.

Its no different that "others" not answering questions or talking in circles.

[Cuddles]

Interesting how Jim has avoided answering my question.

He has answered it. See post #270.

[dafydd]

Contrary to Vision,I have experienced synesthesia during acid trips in the 1960's. Seeing sounds,hearing colours,all grist to the mill of the psychedelic voyager.Synesthesia is not about seeing people's internal organs and diagnosing diseases. (I posted this on thread thread that was curtailed)

[Chimera]

Interesting how Jim has avoided answering my question. It's been awfully quiet here since I posted that. I see a pattern, and it's NOT based on vibrational information.

But he did answer your question.

[VisionFromFeeling]

OBVIOUSLY I posted my comment (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4591382&postcount=267) before UncaYimmy's response to it had been made available by the Moderators!

[VisionFromFeeling]

A comment that is most relevant to the topic of this thread: UncaYimmy demonstrates his biased manner of forming conclusions regarding me and my investigation once again by saying,
Comparing notes with the controls? Talking to the volunteers? Huh? I am very disappointed in the FACT members who participated. I expect this nonsense from Anita, but they should know better than to be giving her feedback or allowing deviation from the protocol.
And started an entire thread based on this, titled "First Study and She Violates Protocol (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/39/afv/topic/Default.aspx)". Just so happens, the study protocol clearly stated that there is to be no speaking between claimant, controls, and volunteers during the time of the reading. This condition was followed perfectly, as there was no speaking during the time of the readings.

I chose to speak with the controls after some of the readings mainly to learn more about the study and from their perspective. In other words, the study procedure was not violated.

I have made this point clear to UncaYimmy many times but he refuses to give any comment. I have asked him to correct this error on his webpage, but obviously he refuses to. That leads me to suspect that his webpage is not an objective analysis of my investigation but that it presents misconceptions as well as selectively choosing certain aspects all to show an incomplete and incorrect version of the investigation that fits with certain Skeptics' preconceived ideas of what a paranormal claimant would be.

[Uncayimmy]

A comment that is most relevant to the topic of this thread: UncaYimmy demonstrates his biased manner of forming conclusions regarding me and my investigation once again by saying,
And started an entire thread based on this, titled "First Study and She Violates Protocol (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/39/afv/topic/Default.aspx)". Just so happens, the study protocol clearly stated that there is to be no speaking between claimant, controls, and volunteers during the time of the reading. This condition was followed perfectly, as there was no speaking during the time of the readings.

I chose to speak with the controls after some of the readings mainly to learn more about the study and from their perspective. In other words, the study procedure was not violated.

I have made this point clear to UncaYimmy many times but he refuses to give any comment. I have asked him to correct this error on his webpage, but obviously he refuses to. That leads me to suspect that his webpage is not an objective analysis of my investigation but that it presents misconceptions as well as selectively choosing certain aspects all to show an incomplete and incorrect version of the investigation that fits with certain Skeptics' preconceived ideas of what a paranormal claimant would be.

In your most recent "study" you spoke with the controls during the experiment. You can pretend that the time spent between readings is not "part of the experiment" but it is. You exchanged information about what each of you "detected" in the participants. Once you did that, they no longer became controls. They learned from you, and you learned from them.

Very soon after your arrival here on the JREF Forums, you posted results of your alleged tests to find cups with bacteria. Turns out you were checking your answers after each trial. You were told repeatedly that this not the proper way to run an experiment. We explained why. In your most recent "study" you got similar feedback from the people you were reading. Not only is this bad for the data, it provided information about your reading to the participants, something you said you would not do.

Nothing I wrote on my website was incorrect. You did what I said you did. You "deviated" from the protocol because the protocol didn't say, "Anita and the controls will exchange information between readings." You did things in your study that were not outlined in the protocol. By definition that is a deviation.

If you are not permitted to "see" what the controls filled out, why are you permitted to hear them tell you what they filled out? You gave information to the people being read. How you can claim those things are not violations of protocol is beyond me.

You have been invited repeatedly to register on my site and make your comments there. You have not offered the same to anyone else on your site. In fact your website lists my website as a "fansite" which is clearly misleading.

More importantly, I repeatedly asked you not to associate my name with your study in any way because I do not endorse it. In response you added the following paragraph after the section where you repeatedly use my name in a fashion that implies I somehow endorse what you are doing.

UncaYimmy wanted me to emphasize that he does not support my claim and that he is not working with me. He does not want his name to be associated with the study procedure that I have designed. However I choose to continue giving him recognition for the contributions he is responsible for since it is his advice that allowed a study design that allows the volunteers to remain perfectly anonymous with regard to their health information, so I continue referring to him as "Brilliant" for this reason, even though he kindly declines it.

I think your claim is bunk. I think your study is a waste of time. I have told you this repeatedly, but all you write is the above?

I think it's pretty clear here who is being misleading and evasive.

[Uncayimmy]

I just stumbled across this page (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/foodperceptions.html) on Anita's site about her perceptions of food. For those wondering why I created www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com, read on.

When it comes to apricots she perceives "a chemical in the stone that destroys some forms of cancer, but that it (like with many anti-cancer chemicals I perceive) is also toxic and might cause cancer." Could she be more irresponsible? It took me all of 10 seconds to Google Apricot Seeds Poisonous (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/193/are-apricot-seeds-poisonous) to find, "Fruits of the rose family--including cherries, apples, plums, almonds, peaches, apricots, and crabapples--contain in their seeds substances known as cyanogenetic glycosides, which on ingestion release hydrogen cyanide gas through an enzymatic reaction. They can most certainly do you in."

When it comes to carrots she writes, "I perceive that the inner stem of carrots contains chemicals that, when eaten raw (uncooked), protect against the form of lung cancer that results from smoking cigarettes. Because the information I perceive from inside carrots merges automatically with the perception I have of what smoking does, and annihilates it. I would love to recommend smokers to drink home-made, uncooked (unheated) carrot juice." Love to recommend? She just did. I can see it now: The Marlboro man and the Jolly Green Giant sharing a smoke and some carrot juice.

She also writes, "I perceive that cheese that has been heated until it has melted into a liquid and heated that way for long enough time would be cancerous to the colon." I guess I'm killing my kids with grilled cheese sammiches and mac & cheese.

She opines on grapefruit with, "I perceive that yellow grapefruits contain chemicals that destroy pathogens (virus and bacteria) and parasites (such as insects or fungal) all across the intestinal tract, and that most of this strength is in the white stuff between the fruit and the peels. This is another fruit that I experience as highly medicinal." She couldn't also take the time to mention the known effects (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00413) on real medicine?

Anita also goes on to link American dairy to breast cancer and chocolate to sagging of the face. Oh, and she used her Vibrational Algebra to explain how garlic fights cancer throughout the body.

She is irresponsible and dangerous. She's taking little tidbits available in the news (garlic does seem to have effects on certain types of cancer) to lend her "perceptions" credibility. I don't know or really care if it's deliberate or not. I'm just glad my site is there to examine these claims skeptically.

[Pup]

When it comes to apricots she perceives "a chemical in the stone that destroys some forms of cancer, but that it (like with many anti-cancer chemicals I perceive) is also toxic and might cause cancer."

A more relevant google, I'd suggest, would be laetrile (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html). It would seem she's heard about it and is imagining, perhaps subconsciously, a distorted version of what she's read.

[wardenclyffe]

Lest we forget, Pup sent VfF some crushed pills in the mail at the beginning of the year. VfF was supposed to use her powers to identify what the pills were and what effect they would have. She never made the attempt. Now, she can look at a carrot and declare it has curative powers when it comes to cancer. And it's not the whole carrot, it's specific parts that are effective. And it's not all cancer, just a certain type. That's all pretty specific. But she can't tell the difference between an aspirin and an antacid? That seems a bit odd.

Ward

[jhunter1163]

Anita also goes on to link American dairy to breast cancer and chocolate to sagging of the face.

I eat chocolate by the pound, the POUND I tell you, and I'm 45 and look 35. No face sagging anywhere.

I also drink milk by the gallon. I'll have to have Mrs. JHunter1163 conduct an exam, but it seems unlikely to me that I have breast cancer.

[Moochie]

I just stumbled across this page (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/foodperceptions.html) on Anita's site about her perceptions of food. For those wondering why I created www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com (http://www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com), read on.

When it comes to apricots she perceives "a chemical in the stone that destroys some forms of cancer, but that it (like with many anti-cancer chemicals I perceive) is also toxic and might cause cancer." Could she be more irresponsible? It took me all of 10 seconds to Google Apricot Seeds Poisonous (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/193/are-apricot-seeds-poisonous) to find, "Fruits of the rose family--including cherries, apples, plums, almonds, peaches, apricots, and crabapples--contain in their seeds substances known as cyanogenetic glycosides, which on ingestion release hydrogen cyanide gas through an enzymatic reaction. They can most certainly do you in."

When it comes to carrots she writes, "I perceive that the inner stem of carrots contains chemicals that, when eaten raw (uncooked), protect against the form of lung cancer that results from smoking cigarettes. Because the information I perceive from inside carrots merges automatically with the perception I have of what smoking does, and annihilates it. I would love to recommend smokers to drink home-made, uncooked (unheated) carrot juice." Love to recommend? She just did. I can see it now: The Marlboro man and the Jolly Green Giant sharing a smoke and some carrot juice.

She also writes, "I perceive that cheese that has been heated until it has melted into a liquid and heated that way for long enough time would be cancerous to the colon." I guess I'm killing my kids with grilled cheese sammiches and mac & cheese.

She opines on grapefruit with, "I perceive that yellow grapefruits contain chemicals that destroy pathogens (virus and bacteria) and parasites (such as insects or fungal) all across the intestinal tract, and that most of this strength is in the white stuff between the fruit and the peels. This is another fruit that I experience as highly medicinal." She couldn't also take the time to mention the known effects (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00413) on real medicine?

Anita also goes on to link American dairy to breast cancer and chocolate to sagging of the face. Oh, and she used her Vibrational Algebra to explain how garlic fights cancer throughout the body.

She is irresponsible and dangerous. She's taking little tidbits available in the news (garlic does seem to have effects on certain types of cancer) to lend her "perceptions" credibility. I don't know or really care if it's deliberate or not. I'm just glad my site is there to examine these claims skeptically.

Like many people still alive today, thanks to medications that lower blood pressure and treat high cholestorol, I'm on meds which require I don't eat grapefuit or drink grapefruit juice. Fortunately for me, I have the smarts to see through this idiot's "advice," but I fear for those who don't.

Good job, UY.


M.

[Dave_46]

<snip>
I'll have to have Mrs. JHunter1163 conduct an exam, but it seems unlikely to me that I have breast cancer.


Men can get breast cancer. Its incidence is less in men I believe, but it does happen.

(Anecdote alert. My neighbours parents BOTH had breast cancer)

Dave

[Kariboo]

In between all the nonsense is this little pearl of wisdom:

Fish
I perceive that fish <snip> contains a surprisingly large percentage of water.

Well, color me surprised.

[William Smith]

VFF's perceptions remind me of an old Dave Attell bit, in which he complains that in our present time one simply has to repeat something already known to achieve stardom. He then names Al Gore's film as an example
Edited for public section.


UncaYimmy, I'm still torn about whether your site is the optimal way to counter VFF's oeuvre.

I find your initiative commendable but I still wonder if it is breaking a fly on the wheel. If this were a vote I would be like 55/45, under the corollary that it is better to do something than to passively let things happen.

[Uncayimmy]

I've heard that objection before, but I have yet to hear any justification for that position. Specifically, how is creating a website the equivalent of a wheel? How is it any different than the thousands of posts here discussing her claims? Why were my posts here seemingly acceptable, but my website is not? All I did was move the discussion elsewhere and organize essentially the same information.

We regularly see people come to this site asking questions like, "I heard about <whatever> and the only information I can find is a website supporting it. Anybody know anything about this?" What I have done is taken a step to answer that question in advance. If somebody searches for Vision From Feeling, my website comes up. I'm not pushing it on anybody - it's a pull for interested people. It's not like I'm taking out ads in a newspaper. The only people who find my site are those interested in VFF's claims, which includes 23 visitors this month coming to my site from her site (she lists my site as a "fan site" for some reason).

It's pretty clear that the JREF website is no longer sufficient because VFF no longer posts her new claims here (and the moderated status has killed much of the discussion). That hasn't stoppped Anita, though. She keeps making new claims, some of which are silly while others are potentially dangerous. My website keeps up with her claims and addresses them as she posts them. Furthermore, my website organizes her vast number of claims whereas on this site you have to sift through several threads containing literally thousands of posts. I address more information in a better way.

Then we have the matter of timing. Sure, she's a fly now. They all start out as flies. Should I have waited until Anita had a large following before attempting to debunk her claims? What I have done is made it much harder for her to dupe people in the future. If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal. Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me. Thing is, the more she tries spread her nonsense, the more useful my site becomes. I think it's better to lock the barn door before the horses get out.

In a nutshell she created a website where she makes all sorts of claims. I created a website that debunks those claims. How that's a fly on a wheel is beyond me.

[William Smith]

I've heard that objection before, but I have yet to hear any justification for that position. Specifically, how is creating a website the equivalent of a wheel? How is it any different than the thousands of posts here discussing her claims? Why were my posts here seemingly acceptable, but my website is not? All I did was move the discussion elsewhere and organize essentially the same information.

We regularly see people come to this site asking questions like, "I heard about <whatever> and the only information I can find is a website supporting it. Anybody know anything about this?" What I have done is taken a step to answer that question in advance. If somebody searches for Vision From Feeling, my website comes up. I'm not pushing it on anybody - it's a pull for interested people. It's not like I'm taking out ads in a newspaper. The only people who find my site are those interested in VFF's claims, which includes 23 visitors this month coming to my site from her site (she lists my site as a "fan site" for some reason).

It's pretty clear that the JREF website is no longer sufficient because VFF no longer posts her new claims here (and the moderated status has killed much of the discussion). That hasn't stoppped Anita, though. She keeps making new claims, some of which are silly while others are potentially dangerous. My website keeps up with her claims and addresses them as she posts them. Furthermore, my website organizes her vast number of claims whereas on this site you have to sift through several threads containing literally thousands of posts. I address more information in a better way.

Then we have the matter of timing. Sure, she's a fly now. They all start out as flies. Should I have waited until Anita had a large following before attempting to debunk her claims? What I have done is made it much harder for her to dupe people in the future. If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal. Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me. Thing is, the more she tries spread her nonsense, the more useful my site becomes. I think it's better to lock the barn door before the horses get out.

In a nutshell she created a website where she makes all sorts of claims. I created a website that debunks those claims. How that's a fly on a wheel is beyond me.

I mostly agree with your reasoning for your point of view.

However, a lot of people make a lot of claims - on the net, in books, newspapers, any medium - every day which are not rebutted by a specific website.

What filter do people use to deal with said claims? Common sense.



In short: When someone without credentials says things like "I perceive that yellow grapefruits contain chemicals that destroy pathogens (virus and bacteria) and parasites (such as insects or fungal) all across the intestinal tract, and that most of this strength is in the white stuff between the fruit and the peels. This is another fruit that I experience as highly medicinal." that's it for me, then and there.

Will that strategy work in all cases. Probably not.

Will it work in most cases: I have experienced it like that.

Just update your common sense once in a while and you should do fine. Simply remember to update it with Stuff That Has Been Repeatedly Proven To Actually Work, or STHBRPTAWAMBLA.

[Uncayimmy]

Here's another justifciation for www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com:

In this thread (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/2/aft/83/afv/topic/Default.aspx), Anita claims that she can now heal the sick. She said, "we know somebody who was about to kill himself because his migraines were unbearable and there was no help. So I had to try, I just had to." After all, "If someone is suffering to the point of suicide, and I think I have helped persons in the past with pain, then I must try."

She then goes on to describe a whole bunch of unverified nonsense about using Vibrational Algebra to clear the dark spots she saw on his brain. She said she applied a "different "voltage"/vibrational pattern" to his nerves and veins. The next month he only had two headaches, and they were less severe. This lead her to conclude, "And it worked."

I don't know about you, but if somebody was about to kill himself, I would take him to get professional help. Suicide is not a trivial matter. What Anita did was incredibly irresponsible. What if her unproven "healing" didn't work or made him worse? Was she willing to risk the poor man becoming even more despondent? Sure, she gave the standard self-contradictory disclaimer about not relying on unproven alternative medicine, but those are just words. She tried to cover her own ass, but she didn't make any mention of recommending that he get professional help for his suicidal thoughts.

Could she be using the term "kill himself" as a figure of speech? No. She specifically used a second reference to suicide. She also said, "his condition had been serious enough for me to put my selfish needs aside." So, either she is lying about the suicide thing or he really was suicidal. We have no idea if the event really happened at all, much less as she described.

She did tell us she gave him a second "treatment" and "will need to see him a third time to complete what I was working on, it is still not finished." I guess this poor guy's "common sense filter" is clogged.

[desertgal]

I have to point out that, if this really happened, according to Anita, in order to make herself appear more knowledgeable, she gave the gentlemen a medical description of migraine that does not match any true medical description of migraine. This wars with her alleged oral disclaimer. "Don't take my word for it, but here's what is really going on with you <insert medical terminology here>". She also mentioned that the gentleman had visited a neurologist, who had failed to help him, so it was Anita to the rescue, instead of encouraging hm to visit a specialist again.

The suicide issue aside, although Anita claims that she didn't 'perceive' a serious brain problem, one has to ask, what if there is? The man's migraines had supposedly increased since his visit to the neurologist, which certainly indicates that any medical cause might be increasing as well.

I don't think many of us would want our father/brother/husband/son goofing around with this wackjob over a potential neurological problem.

Totally irresponsible, and downright stupid.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Jim Carr, I appreciate and honor your effort in suppressing what should here seem like a possible psychic fraud beginning to express a non-existing talent and probably intending to financially exploit, and to expose patients to possible harm, as in recommending them against conventional medicine or in giving them false hopes. I fully acknowledge those dangers, however you must not let your worst expectations cloud your judgement since none of this applied to what took place when I attempted to treat a man who suffered from migraines.

My suspicion that I might be able to heal is not something that originates from my own interpretation of events. All past cases where I have attempted to heal people were with loved ones who were helplessly in great pain. And in all cases I had not told them that I was attempting to heal them, nor was it by any means obvious that I was. And after long periods of suffering without any sign of improvement there was great relief immediate to my treatment.

My boyfriend was waking up every night for years with excrutiating pain in his shoulder. I would wake up with him and was of course very concerned. One night I decided I had to fix it so I used my "vision from feeling" to look inside the shoulder. I found a black vibrational substance lodged among the ligaments and muscles and removed it without telling him what I was about to do nor making it obvious what I was doing. I never told him I was attempting to heal him, so there was no introduction of placebo that could have changed his actual condition or changed the way he experiences or describes the condition. From that night on he no longer wakes up with shoulder pain.

Am I a good luck charm that coincidentally sets people into a state of sudden and immediate, lasting dramatic recovery? Or does what I do have effect? All that matters is that people recover.

When I heard about a man who is suffering from migraines that are constant, unbearable and debilitating to the point of him feeling like ending his life I was of course very concerned. Remembering past events that had had apparent results, I knew I had to at least try, and you can not blaim me for wanting to help someone.

I met with him in early June and told him about my "vision from feeling" and how I see images of tissue and feel things about people and about a few past experiences where I've seemed to have helped. I was very thorough in my questions to ensure that he has sought all the conventional help that is available. He said he has been tested by all sorts of doctors and taken all available medication. He has even tried alternative medicine such as acupuncture, and alternative herbal medicines. Some had given temporary relief but the migraines would always become resistant and return.

Since age 6 his migraines had continually gotten worse to a point where now at 56 they were constant. A migraine would last one and a half to two days after which there was a difficult recovery period of a few days. He was unable to have a normal job and works from home and his family life was greatly affected. He had at least 3 or 4 migraines a week, and with the difficulties during the recovery periods in between, he was in a state of constant suffering.

He said he had been given an option of operating electrodes into him but it would cost tens of thousands of dollars and he could not afford it.

I carefully explained that I do not have any evidence that I could be able to heal, but that past experiences compelled me to want to try. Neither of us were expecting any results but we both agreed that it is worth a try.

By seeing me, he was by no means being withheld from his other forms of treatment. Seeing me, he was not choosing not to take a medication, or choosing not to make an appointment with a medical specialist. I only took half an hour to an hour of his time, and I was not cause of any distress to him.

When I met him he was having an on-set for another migraine.

I looked into his body and found areas of black vibrational substance, which looks like a solid colored material across the tissue. Most more serious health problems that I see with my "vision" have black associated to them. The black was sitting above the optical nerves and seemingly affecting nerves and blood vessels, causing a feeling of cramp and compression and leading to migraines.

I treated him by working in the image that I was seeing of the inside of his brain near the optical nerves. Directly in that image, I cut the black into smaller sections and removed them by force applied by my mind. That way I removed the entire black section and it resulted in that I felt the tissues more relaxed this time and I no longer felt or saw the sensation of cramp in the blood vessels and nerves as before. The changes I made in my mind to the image, became lasting changes such that when I looked again, the image from his tissues was updated and changed.

As soon as I had finished removing the black, he said that the compression he was feeling across the forehead, that always gets worse and ends as a migraine, was completely gone all of a sudden.

I then gave some manual treatment by pressing against the top of his head and neck with my fingers, in ways that I felt was adding "balance" to the feeling of pain across his head. By adding and removing into the way the tissues feel I am balancing it from a feeling of pain into a feeling of health.

I told him that I was unable to finish what I was working on in one time and would like to see him again to complete what I was working on.

He had another migraine that same night. During the month that followed, had he followed the same trend, he would have had at least 12 migraines, or at least 3 or 4 migraines a week. For many years he had been having more frequent and more intense migraines on a continual upward slope. I heard from him a month later and he had only had two migraines within a month since the one that same night.

Not only was there a significant reduction in the frequency of migraines (from a minimum of 12 to 2), but he also reported that these two lasted for shorter amounts of time, that they were less intense, and that there was no nausea associated with them anymore. He explained how his whole life had changed, all the activities he was now able to do, how his wife did not have to suffer with him anymore and how he had much of his family life back.

I was so pleased that he was doing better, however I was - and remain - skeptical that I was the cause of the improvement. I asked him thoroughly whether there had been any other changes to his life since meeting with me. He had not made any changes to his other forms of treatment or medication and the only change in lifestyle was that he had started rowing. I said that rowing and exercise might improve migraines, he said he didn't think so because he has exercised in the past and without any improvement.

The reason I have chosen to share this story has got nothing to do with me. If - for any reason - I were able to help migraine sufferers, either by being a good luck charm that sets people into a coincidental immediate recovery or by actually having some effect, then I will definitely help people and nothing in the world can stop me. I don't care if I am attacked for having wanted to help someone. I also think that Jim Carr's comments and arguments are strongly disrespectful to the man and his experience.

I definitely did not keep him from attempting any other forms of help. I was by no means irresponsible, I was attempting to help someone, and whether it was because of the treatment or because I am a good luck charm that puts people into a coincidental healthy period, doesn't matter.

What matters is that the man has greatly improved.

It would have been irresponsible of me to not want to try.

[Apology]

She did tell us she gave him a second "treatment" and "will need to see him a third time to complete what I was working on, it is still not finished." I guess this poor guy's "common sense filter" is clogged.
I'd assume his judgment is a little off, if he's really suicidal. Either that, or he's not suicidal at all; he's a typical college student and willing to humor Anita and endure her "treatments" because he thinks she's really hot.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I did not withhold the man from any conventional medicine, diagnostics or medicine. In fact I suggested to him that his symptoms could suggest a brain tumor, and he said that he has taken all the tests. Meeting with me was by no means harmful to him.

Don't forget the improvement. He was at a constant worsening of his symptoms, and after seeing me there was dramatic improvement. Good luck charm, or actual effect? Doesn't matter. What matters is that he has his life back.

[VisionFromFeeling]

One month after first treating him, but before commencing with the second treatment, I had this interview with the man I had attempted to treat for migraines. I had a more thorough interview with him before the first treatment but did not write that down. From my notes on our conversation, based on my questions to him and what he chose to add:

He is male, 56 years old, and suffers from migraines.
The migraines began when he was 6 years old.
Since the past 10-15 years the migraines have increased in frequency (to occur more often) until he was a chronic migraine sufferer with a constant condition.

He has seen several neurologists. Tried all the medicines, even profylactic, and in all doses. They will work only for a while and then taper off. He has tried all the medicines.

One month after the first treatment with me he was still taking the same medicines as he did before seeing me. Butterbur herbal medicine at first seemed to work in reducing the frequency and severity of migraines but had started not to work too.

He was given the option of implanting electrodes on a nerve as a possible form of treatment, but it would cost $50,000 to $75,000 to do so.

Everyday life was a headache, he couldn't work or think clearly, got depressed and was on antidepressants.

So I ask him to tell me more about the time before he met me:

He was getting at least 3 or 4 migraines a week. The medicine Zomig would take the major pain away but still leave a headache, but it too was becoming less effective. Drugs were becoming less effective.

Since meeting me he has only had 3 migraines which includes the one on the same night he had seen me. They have been less severe. He says, "Something changed, and fairly dramatically from a 3 a week to 3 in a month, that's pretty good, that's pretty dramatic."

I ask him to describe what the migraines used to be like:

It starts with a pressure like a band around the forehead that constantly tightens until the pain centers behind the left eye. He then becomes very sensitive to light and sounds. Taste, smell, all of his senses would intensify.

He would feel pain pulse almost like a heartbeat. Half the time the pain would be so intense he would throw up.

I ask him how long the migraines would last:

If the medicine works, they would last half an hour to an hour. If the medicine didn't work, they'd last one and a half to two days and afterward he'd have a "migraine hangover" and couldn't think clearly the day after that.

He says, "The migraines had an effect on my life that was debilitating."

And, "My life was headaches. Anything else would be fitted around the headaches." He couldn't work for anyone and was considered disabled if he had to work for someone else so he works from home.

From the way he was speaking, it sounded like he was using past tense to describe what the migraines were like, and he agreed that he was. Like there was a before and after.

"Suddenly I got my life back, I am able to do things I couldn't do before, and can go places." His wife's life was also affected because they can do more things together now and she no longer has the concern or burden of worry.

The first of the three recent migraines that he had since seeing me was on the same night and he says it was oncoming from before he met me.

I ask when the other two were. They were a week apart and not back to back.

These past two migraines were not as severe, the pain was milder. No nausea. Last for shorter amounts of time. The first of the three lasted a day, the other two were short lived, about half a day.

I ask him if there were any other changes to his lifestyle since seeing me. He does more exercise now, rowing. No changes in medication. He started rowing about a week after the first treatment. He has exercised rigorously in the past but still had frequent migraines.

I ask him what he thinks might have caused this dramatic improvement, and I tell him that I am skeptical that I had anything to do with it. He thinks that what I did was the cause of the change.

Next time I meet him I will audio record an interview with him and make that available from my website www.visionfromfeeling.com. He allows me to share his story and I am promoting this because I'd love to meet with other migraine patients to see whether I could be of any help to them. It has got nothing to do with me. These people are suffering and if there is any chance that I could be of any help then it's worth a try.

[Audible Click]

This has become quite frightening, at least from my perspective. This recent claim she put forth could actually hurt someone. I hope that Anita would, take a step back, and really examine the potential damage she could do with her supposed healing technique.

[wardenclyffe]

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

I have not seen that info anywhere else. I assume that this information came from a private conversation between VfF and UncaYimmy. She attended the most recent F.A.C.T. meeting (http://www.meetup.com/f-a-c-t/calendar/10466099/) and I have not heard anything disparaging from her about them. She seems, or seemed, to have admired Dr. Carlson who helps head up the group.

I hope UY is mistaken and she stays in touch with F.A.C.T.. This group (or individual members of it) can be of great assistance in her future studies. If she hopes to claim the IIG's (www.iigwest.org) $50K prize, I think she'll probably have to go through F.A.C.T. first. They were the only people who seemed to be able to convince VfF that she was not making a testable claim. They made progress where no one on this board or at IIG seemed to be able to.

I think the report of her coming in third out of four was made before last month's meeting (I could be wrong), and she still went to the meeting.

So if anyone has further information about the reported "break-up" between VfF and F.A.C.T., please let us know.

Thanks,
Ward

[Cuddles]

Good luck charm, or actual effect?

Neither. The fact that those are the only possibilities you consider, neither of which are actually possible (that is, you have no abilities and there is no such thing as a good luck charm), is rather telling. Again you prove that not only do you have no idea about the scientific method and no knowledge in the relevant field, you clearly have no interest in actually educating yourself.

There are numerous other far more likely possibilities. Firstly, there's the placebo effect. Contrary to what you probably think, that does not mean you did anything, it simply means that a person might feel better (but not actually have any physical improvement) when they think something has been done. It could be regression towards the mean, which is when normal variation in the severity of an ailment can appear to be improvement attributed to a specific treatment that happened to done when the ailment was at its worst. A related problem is confirmation bias - maybe you tried treating him several times and only on the one time there appeared to be an
effect did you report it.

Of course, by far the most likely explanation is that you are just lying. You certainly don't have the best track record for honesty. You claim to be investigating your nonsense scientifically yet constantly make up new, ever more impressive, superpowers for yourself. We went from seeing some pretty colours to medical diagnosis to meeting with ghosts to being an alien to magically curing illnesses. Of course, this is not amazingly unusual, there are frauds and liars all of the place claiming similar things. What does seem odd, however, is that you persist in this nonsense despite the fact that not a single person appears to actually believe you. Even the most obvious frauds usually manage to get some kind of following after this length of time, how exactly do you manage to be so unconvincing?

Doesn't matter. What matters is that he has his life back.

Actually, it matters quite a lot. This is why we use the scientific method to study medicine instead of the VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

[desertgal]

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

Thanks,
Ward

Sorry, but no, UncaYimmy did not say that Anita has ceased communicating with FACT. He said (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/2/aft/72/afv/topic/afpg/1/Default.aspx) that she hasn't not mentioned them since Dr. Carlson stated his conclusions:

"They also evaluated her data from the study and concluded she came in third place out of four people when guessing what ailments people had in her study. She still refuses to publish this data as promised, but we all know the conclusions: she failed. Once again, she didn't like that, so she's not talking about F-A-C-T anymore."

[desertgal]

Actually, it matters quite a lot. This is why we use the scientific method to study medicine instead of the VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

Excellent points.

Do you understand, Anita, that what you claim to have done with this man, and what you are proposing to do with others in the future is illegal? Not only fraudulent and potentially harmful, but also a violation of the medical practice statutes nationwide. You are putting an awful lot at risk here, including your academic career and your right to remain in the United States. You say it "has nothing to do with you", but that isn't the way the authorities would view it.

[wardenclyffe]

Thanks, desertgal. I had mis-read what UncaYimmy wrote. In the phrase "Once again, she didn't like that, so she's not talking about F-A-C-T anymore," I mis-read the word "about" as "to." Big difference.

Thanks and sorry,
Ward

[Uncayimmy]

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

First off, if you think something I wrote on the website is incorrect, I encourage you to make an account and post as much in the appropriate thread.

Second, you're wrong about what I wrote. What I wrote was, "Once again, she didn't like that, so she's not talking about F-A-C-T anymore." I stand behind this statement. I never said she wasn't talking to them or not attending meetings. I said she is not talking about them. For a while there it was F-A-C-T this and Dr. Carlson that. Now there's nothing.

Once the Dr. Carlson revealed the results of the study, she became very quiet about them. She promised to post the results of her study, but kept making excuses about not having both sets of papers. She's had them for a while now, but still nothing. It's all new stuff about detecting a person's hand in a bucket of ice or healing migraines by applying voltage to the veins.

This is part of a larger pattern where she makes a big production out of things until it becomes uncomfortable for her fantasies/delusions/lies.

* First it was the IIG ("they can't figure out how to test me").

* Then it was detecting lactobacillus ("oh, but now it makes my head hurt").

* Then it was reading photos ("that's not my main claim anyway").

* Then it was the moderated Interview thread ("Oh, I'm just too busy to respond now even though I have responded to hundreds of other posts").

* Then it was identifying the chemicals in crushed pills ("I spent two hours, but I need more time and I'm just too busy for all these months. Besides, I need uncrushed pills and can't possibly get them from the drugstore myself.").

* Then it was working with F-A-C-T on a big study ("four months is not enough time for me to post the results. Besides, I really did detect Dr. Carslon's missing kidney - I was just too scared to say anything even though when it comes to readings I have never been wrong before in my whole life.").

Part of what my site does is point out these patterns.

[VisionFromFeeling]

This has become quite frightening, at least from my perspective. This recent claim she put forth could actually hurt someone. I hope that Anita would, take a step back, and really examine the potential damage she could do with her supposed healing technique. Thank you for your concern, and I am concerned also of fraud psychics who exploit people in need. However my motives are not greed or scamming, and I am very careful in my approach.

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

I have not seen that info anywhere else. I assume that this information came from a private conversation between VfF and UncaYimmy. She attended the most recent F.A.C.T. meeting (http://www.meetup.com/f-a-c-t/calendar/10466099/) and I have not heard anything disparaging from her about them. She seems, or seemed, to have admired Dr. Carlson who helps head up the group.

I hope UY is mistaken and she stays in touch with F.A.C.T.. This group (or individual members of it) can be of great assistance in her future studies. If she hopes to claim the IIG's (www.iigwest.org) $50K prize, I think she'll probably have to go through F.A.C.T. first. They were the only people who seemed to be able to convince VfF that she was not making a testable claim. They made progress where no one on this board or at IIG seemed to be able to.

I think the report of her coming in third out of four was made before last month's meeting (I could be wrong), and she still went to the meeting.

So if anyone has further information about the reported "break-up" between VfF and F.A.C.T., please let us know.I am still attending every FACT meeting and intend to ask them to be involved in a local test once I get that far in the investigation. Before that I wish to have more experience with reading people so that a trend would become more obvious. Of course I admire Dr. Carlson, he is a wonderful scientist, excellent skeptic, and a lovely person. :)

The fact that I came third out of four in the point scale system of the first study is no reason for me to not attend a FACT meeting. I am not opposed to falsification of the claim, no matter how passionately some JREF Forum Skeptics here would love to insist that I should be, as a paranormal claimant.

As a science student I should know better. I mean, you could be in the chemistry lab and months of work could be "ruined" because you ended up falsifying what had seemed to be a promising hypothesis. No scientist would continue to waste time and resources in pursuing the claim further, trying to ignore the truth of the matter. However, I truly believe that the claim has not been falsified quite yet. And trust me if there is no ability then that will become obvious as I gather more data. No conclusion can be made from just five readings that involved scattered forms of information and flaws in the study procedure.

There are numerous other far more likely possibilities. Firstly, there's the placebo effect. Contrary to what you probably think, that does not mean you did anything, it simply means that a person might feel better (but not actually have any physical improvement) when they think something has been done. It could be regression towards the mean, which is when normal variation in the severity of an ailment can appear to be improvement attributed to a specific treatment that happened to done when the ailment was at its worst. A related problem is confirmation bias - maybe you tried treating him several times and only on the one time there appeared to be an
effect did you report it.You are right there could be any number of possibilities. I do not take credit for his improvement, yet I want to explore whether other migraine sufferers would experience the same dramatic improvement after seeing me. And even if all I did were to introduce a placebo, I'd be happy to be the source of such a good placebo that really helps. The vast improvement occurred after the first and only treatment that I had given him. I had not even met him prior to that.

Of course, by far the most likely explanation is that you are just lying. You certainly don't have the best track record for honesty. I might come across as unfocused or incompetent in my investigation, but one thing I am not is a liar, but of course you are entitled to questioning my honesty. After all, you are a skeptic. And skeptics must remain skeptical. ;)
We went from seeing some pretty colours to medical diagnosis to meeting with ghosts to being an alien to magically curing illnesses. The investigation started with medical perceptions and continues with the same. Later I added description of synesthesia into the search for an explanation. As for communication with ghosts, that was mentioned in other threads where I was discussing my experiences with that topic, and it does not form another claim that I want investigated here.

As for being a Star Person (alien), that is a personal characteristic and should be of not much more interest than my political or religious denomination. Star People are simply individuals who feel a strong connection with outer space on a personal level. It doesn't necessarily mean that we are going to insist that we are from outer space, but we feel that we are. To explain some of what Star People are like, you might like to see http://www.drboylan.com/starkididqstnr.html. I scored between 51 to 60 on the questions, 9 of which are unknown and relate to my early childhood and I would have to ask my mother about them, and 3 no, out of a total possible of 67. It was only brought up since there was a Skeptic site that asks "Are you human?" before you can register and one would have to answer yes. At first I said no and couldn't register. Then I said yes, but then I emailed them and asked them to withdraw my registration and that's where all this mess came from. :) And as for curing illnesses, we don't know that yet but I am intending to find out if I can. I'm just expressing #24, #25, #26 and #27 on the questionnaire. ;)

Of course, this is not amazingly unusual, there are frauds and liars all of the place claiming similar things. What does seem odd, however, is that you persist in this nonsense despite the fact that not a single person appears to actually believe you. Even the most obvious frauds usually manage to get some kind of following after this length of time, how exactly do you manage to be so unconvincing? I am not here to gain followers. I am sharing my investigation with skeptics because "psychics" rarely offer any insight and scrutiny into their claims. We are arguing because there is a lack of data.

VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. Actually, what I call "vision from feeling" are things similar to synesthetic perceptions, I am describing what I perceive and I am not making them up. In the same way as I perceive the number 2 is orange. I don't make it up, I just describe what I see.

If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud. I know that. I totally agree, and that is what I am working on. :)

Do you understand, Anita, that what you claim to have done with this man, and what you are proposing to do with others in the future is illegal? No I don't understand that. I visualized colored light into the perception I had of the inside of a man's brain. And then I gave a gentle (and quite comfortable and relaxing) massage with my fingertips. Most people would love to sit down and get a massage. Desertgal, just cool down.
Not only fraudulent and potentially harmful, but also a violation of the medical practice statutes nationwide. You are putting an awful lot at risk here, including your academic career and your right to remain in the United States. I am aware that the incident of attempting to heal a man who was suffering from constant migraines and experiencing a coincidental dramatic improvement in his condition after the treatment might stir things up in my career or VISA status, however, all it was was visualization and a gentle massage and neither of those things are illegal. I charged no money and emphasized that he continue to rely on conventional medicine and medications and that what I do must be considered as nonsense and useless. Yet it either coincided with a dramatic healing or it had some effect, whether placebo or otherwise. A foreign student wanting to give headache sufferers a relieving head massage is definitely not grounds for not granting them employment or for having them deported. It should show that I am a caring individual. Besides, something happened, and I intend to find out whether it can happen again.

[Tricky]

It is not very surprising that some of this discussion has drifted away from the discussion of the website. That might be expected when you discuss items on the website. However, there is a thread for VFF's general claims right here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138995
Please try to confine discussions that in no way relate to the www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com (http://www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com) website to that thread, not this one.

Thank you
Tricky

[Audible Click]

Thank you for your concern, and I am concerned also of fraud psychics who exploit people in need. However my motives are not greed or scamming, and I am very careful in my approach.

I remain concerned,Anita, because what you are doing could actually hurt you and the person/people that you are going to "heal". Can't you see that no matter what you tell them about continuing their medical treatment and meds, that it is entirely possible that someone would not do those things and have a disaterous result? Can you not see you are risking your future both academic and personal?



The fact that I came third out of four in the point scale system of the first study is no reason for me to not attend a FACT meeting. I am not opposed to falsification of the claim, no matter how passionately some JREF Forum Skeptics here would love to insist that I should be, as a paranormal claimant.

You agreed to post the raw data from your FACT study on this forum. I've asked you this question numerous times and I'll ask again: Why have you not posted this data? Not posting it puts you in a very bad light as regards to your honesty and the ability to stand by what you said you would do. Please reply to the question in my post.

[William Smith]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.

People motivated by desperation or imminent death do not seem a counterargument because they may have abandoned common sense a while ago.

Phrased a bit more direct: Can you really reach people who are willing to listen to VFF in the first place?

I think you have the resources to come with more than "One has to try."



You saying this struck me:

...
Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me.
...

A Freudian Slip or a manifestation of your motivation, Agent Smith?

[Apology]

Neither. The fact that those are the only possibilities you consider, neither of which are actually possible (that is, you have no abilities and there is no such thing as a good luck charm), is rather telling. Again you prove that not only do you have no idea about the scientific method and no knowledge in the relevant field, you clearly have no interest in actually educating yourself.

There are numerous other far more likely possibilities. Firstly, there's the placebo effect. Contrary to what you probably think, that does not mean you did anything, it simply means that a person might feel better (but not actually have any physical improvement) when they think something has been done. It could be regression towards the mean, which is when normal variation in the severity of an ailment can appear to be improvement attributed to a specific treatment that happened to done when the ailment was at its worst. A related problem is confirmation bias - maybe you tried treating him several times and only on the one time there appeared to be an
effect did you report it.

Of course, by far the most likely explanation is that you are just lying. You certainly don't have the best track record for honesty. You claim to be investigating your nonsense scientifically yet constantly make up new, ever more impressive, superpowers for yourself. We went from seeing some pretty colours to medical diagnosis to meeting with ghosts to being an alien to magically curing illnesses. Of course, this is not amazingly unusual, there are frauds and liars all of the place claiming similar things. What does seem odd, however, is that you persist in this nonsense despite the fact that not a single person appears to actually believe you. Even the most obvious frauds usually manage to get some kind of following after this length of time, how exactly do you manage to be so unconvincing?



Actually, it matters quite a lot. This is why we use the scientific method to study medicine instead of the VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

These are all good possibilities. I thought of another one that should be added to the list.

The man could have had a brain vascular malformation---basically, a weak capillary. The stress on the capillary (or capillaries) could have caused his headaches. Since Anita's "treatments", one or more of the capillaries could have burst on their own. While this would relieve the headache pain, which would make him feel better, in actuality, his condition would be much worse.

Malformations of this type can be so small that they can't be seen using conventional clinical testing, which explains why a neurologist didn't find anything.

[Uncayimmy]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.
It seems to me that people unwilling/unable to listen to common sense are actually much more likely to listen to someone with zero, repeat, zero professional credentials. It would be my perfect audience, wouldn't it? As it is I prefer my logic and observations to stand on their own. One need not be a professional to do what I have done, so I don't see where that plays into it.

Phrased a bit more direct: Can you really reach people who are willing to listen to VFF in the first place?
Answered directly: Yes.

I've never met anyone who says that all psychics are real, which is another way of saying that I've met plenty of people willing to listen to someone like VFF who think that there are genuine pyschics/healers/prophets along with some level of (a lot, a few) fake/fraudulent/deluded ones.

And let's say she starts marketing herself and trying to get in the local paper. When the reporter does 10 minutes of research, he finds my site. Most likely he's one of those, "Some are frauds but a few are real" guys. After looking at my site, what do you think he concludes? I'm hoping fraud.

You saying this struck me:

Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me.

A Freudian Slip or a manifestation of your motivation, Agent Smith?

Not a Freudian slip by any means. Right before that I wrote, "If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal." To sum it up:

A) I wasted my time - big deal.
B) I did not waste my time - good for me.

I certainly do want to "block her path" when it comes to duping people in the future. Are you saying you're okay with her duping people?

[LightinDarkness]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.

Because people ignore Sylvia Brown because she has zero, repeat: zero credentials.

[Cuddles]

As noted by Tricky, this is not the thread for general discussion of VisionFromFeeling's claims. Please take such posts to the general discussion thread created for that. I apologise for my part in the derail.

[William Smith]

It seems to me that people unwilling/unable to listen to common sense are actually much more likely to listen to someone with zero, repeat, zero professional credentials. It would be my perfect audience, wouldn't it? As it is I prefer my logic and observations to stand on their own. One need not be a professional to do what I have done, so I don't see where that plays into it.

Ah, you probably misunderstood: I meant VFF being the one with zero credentials.

If your site is done properly from a journalistic point of view - and so it seems to me so far - you will reveal the sources for your information and make it possible and easy for anyone to retrace your steps. That would be professional enough in my book.


Answered directly: Yes.

I've never met anyone who says that all psychics are real, which is another way of saying that I've met plenty of people willing to listen to someone like VFF who think that there are genuine pyschics/healers/prophets along with some level of (a lot, a few) fake/fraudulent/deluded ones.

And let's say she starts marketing herself and trying to get in the local paper. When the reporter does 10 minutes of research, he finds my site. Most likely he's one of those, "Some are frauds but a few are real" guys. After looking at my site, what do you think he concludes? I'm hoping fraud.


You and me both.


Not a Freudian slip by any means. Right before that I wrote, "If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal." To sum it up:

A) I wasted my time - big deal.
B) I did not waste my time - good for me.

I certainly do want to "block her path" when it comes to duping people in the future. Are you saying you're okay with her duping people?

Classic CFLarsen strategy. You will certainly forgive me if I don't bite, yes? ;)

[Cuddles]

Have to say, I think I'm starting to change my mind on this. I originally thought it was rather a pointless waste of time to create a whole website dedicated to someone with a few silly beliefs that she has superpowers. However, given the direction her claims now seem to be going, I'm not so sure. She's gone from making a few silly claims and vaguely thinking about testing them to making claims (probably actually illegal ones) about healing people, on websites other than here and her own, as well as outright refusing to actually test anything or provide the results of previous tests.

I think the turning point was here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4899373#post4899373).
Anita has now joined a migraine support group to give treatments to other migraine sufferers
When she confined her silly claims to here and her personal website that was one thing. When she starts not only making dangerous claims, but also spreading them around to make sure people who could be harmed will see them, that's rather different. Of course, if she never makes it big we'll never know if UncaYimmy's website had anything to do with it. In any case, I no longer consider it to be a bad idea.

[Audible Click]

You're welcome to join UY's forum. We're doing our best to get Stop VfF to be near the top on search engines.:)

[wardenclyffe]

Have to say, I think I'm starting to change my mind on this. I originally thought it was rather a pointless waste of time to create a whole website dedicated to someone with a few silly beliefs that she has superpowers. However, given the direction her claims now seem to be going, I'm not so sure......Of course, if she never makes it big we'll never know if UncaYimmy's website had anything to do with it. In any case, I no longer consider it to be a bad idea.

I don't know what has happened at www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com that couldn't have happened here. Its major attribute is that it organizes her claims into an easy to view list. That will be a help for people when they first discover VfF. Any new information it provides could have been provided here. However some of that information seems to come from direct communication between UncaYimmy and VfF. Perhaps that communication exists because of his website.

I never felt his website was harmful. I just didn't see the point. The organization of her claims is a valid point, but even that could probably have been accomplished here. Moderation would have slowed it down, though.

I confess that I read every post and blog entry on his site.

Ward

[William Smith]

... (probably actually illegal ones) ...

Contact the proper authorities then.

[Uncayimmy]

I don't know what has happened at www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com that couldn't have happened here. Its major attribute is that it organizes her claims into an easy to view list. That will be a help for people when they first discover VfF. Any new information it provides could have been provided here. However some of that information seems to come from direct communication between UncaYimmy and VfF. Perhaps that communication exists because of his website.


Anita was contacting me privately long before I started my site. Where appropriate I have shared that information here and on StopVFF. You might recall how she publicly chastized me here for not responding to her private messages in a timely manner and how she publicly announced that she was "de-friending" me on Facebook.

The original VFF thread was closed on March 3rd. My site was started on March 28th. I remember the exact thing that Anita wrote on her website that made me pull the trigger:
"One FACT member said that based on what's been taking place a the JREF Forums he doesn't see why I keep going there because it doesn't do me any good, and I said that well, I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them."

I found that incredibly disrespectful to everyone here. She has since "clarified" what she "really" meant, but I don't believe her spin on it. Reading that quote is when I realized that this board was not adequate to address her. I figured that the new thread she had started would quickly be set to moderated status, and I was right. Moderated threads suck, but I understand why the JREF uses them.

As you pointed out, the big advantage of my site is organization. The first VFF thread is longer than a Harry Potter novel and has no organization. In 10 minutes on my site you can learn all you need to know about VFF. And if you want to discuss things more freely, you can do it.

[wardenclyffe]

I remember that you and VfF were privately communicating long before your website. I think your interview thread with her here was an outgrowth of that private communication. Correct me if I'm wrong on the timeline.

My point about your website's relationship to the private messages is this:

We all provoke her with our posts here and on your website. You probably provoke her the most since it's your site. I cannot know the full extent of your private communication with her, but I'm willing to bet it spikes after you or someone else posts some sort of public provocation.

It's harder to provoke her here because of the moderation. Your website allows for faster and more barbed posts, which increases the private communication, which increases the number of her claims. I can only imagine what you know that you are unwilling (for ethical reasons) to share.

So, although you had a private correspondance with her before your website, the moderated status of the threads was not conducive to continuing that relationship. I know the relationship has had its ups and downs both earlier (when she said she was going to unfriend you) and later after you created your website (when she kept trying to contact you over and over after you asked her not to). I assume she has to pay more attention to you when you are a webmaster than when you are one of many posters here. That puts you in a unique position with her---you, to a certain extent, control what the world knows of her.

I'm perfectly willing to be told I'm full of it.

Man, it's late. I gotta hit the sack,
Ward

[desertgal]

Contact the proper authorities then.

And then what? One alleged case is not sufficient for the authorities to act upon. It's simply a starting point, and the dissection of Anita's claims on UY's site does and will continue to provide a clearer picture to aid the authorities in conducting an investigation.

[William Smith]

And then what? One alleged case is not sufficient for the authorities to act upon. It's simply a starting point, and the dissection of Anita's claims on UY's site does and will continue to provide a clearer picture to aid the authorities in conducting an investigation.

The point is: If you believe an illegal action took place, the JREF Forum is not the first address to go to.

[desertgal]

The point is: If you believe an illegal action took place, the JREF Forum is not the first address to go to.

Of course not. But, observing that something may be illegal here doesn't mean that this is the only place the issue has been addressed.

[Uncayimmy]

My point about your website's relationship to the private messages is this:

We all provoke her with our posts here and on your website. You probably provoke her the most since it's your site. I cannot know the full extent of your private communication with her, but I'm willing to bet it spikes after you or someone else posts some sort of public provocation.
There's really no pattern to when she contacts me. There have been a couple of times where she was clearly reacting to something on the site, such as when her claims about detecting significant biological differences based on "race" (skin color, actually) were examined closely. More often than not it's just whether she feels like contacting me or not.

I just took a cursory look at my Skype log for the last 30 days. She initiated Skype chats on 14 different days. On some of those days she initiated more than one chat. Furthermore, I had her blocked for several days so she couldn't initiate any chats at all.

It's harder to provoke her here because of the moderation. Your website allows for faster and more barbed posts, which increases the private communication, which increases the number of her claims. I can only imagine what you know that you are unwilling (for ethical reasons) to share.

I would say you have a reasonable hypothesis, but I don't believe the facts bear that out. Since I started the site there has only been one new claim: healing. You could argue that sensing a hand being dunked in ice is a new claim, but it was really her attempt to "study" what she already thinks she can do.

So, although you had a private correspondance with her before your website, the moderated status of the threads was not conducive to continuing that relationship. I know the relationship has had its ups and downs both earlier (when she said she was going to unfriend you) and later after you created your website (when she kept trying to contact you over and over after you asked her not to). I assume she has to pay more attention to you when you are a webmaster than when you are one of many posters here. That puts you in a unique position with her---you, to a certain extent, control what the world knows of her.

Another reasonable hypothesis, but I don't believe the facts support it.

[Uncayimmy]

He was jumping the gun, and because of that is now actually contributing to the problem; see VFF's above statement.

What's happening is that she's taking the website as encouragement, as a challenge, and she's redoubling her efforts to _do something_, rather than just poke around idly. She is also using his website as a resource to publicize her claims and services -- nothing like free advertising via Google, right?

StopSylvia was a much different circumstance as it addressed a person who was already famous. I have a real concern, reading these threads, that paying this much attention to Anita is simply aggravating the circumstances.

I'm glad that you have a "real" concern rather than a fake one. I would hate to think that after 8 months of not posting in any of the VFF discussion threads and 4 months after the start of my website that your "concern" was somehow related to our recent personal issues (you publicly announced that you were putting me on ignore).

There seems to be misconception as to the scope of Anita's activities. Allow me to recap what happened before I started my site.

* Long before she arrived here, her website was on-line.

* Long before she arrived here, she was in protracted and public negotiations with the IIG to take their $50K challenge.

* She has contacted other skeptic boards

* She did "readings" of people she "just met"

* She gave medical advice about a heart condition

* She very seriously discussed the possibility of winning a Nobel.

* She wrote a letter to the local parks office describing her abilities and soliciting "permission" to do a study on park property.

* She wrote a letter to the owner of a local mall describing her abilities and asking permission to do a "study" in the mall where she solicited patrons.

* She joined a local skeptics group and did "readings" with them.

* She solicited volunteers from that group to help conduct a "study"

* She conducted a study on the sidewalk in the city by soliciting strangers

* She contacted Dr. Emoto and volunteered to help him conduct his water crystal studies.

* She contacted at least one other woo practitioner to share her experiences.

* She told a few professors about her abilities.

* She joined the local Star Seed Meetup group

* She wrote on her website that she was making fun of people here and only visited this site to "have fun" with the skeptics.

This is all based on what she has told us publicly before I created my site. We have no idea what else she might have done. The notion that she's just harmlessly talking about her claims here is a misconception. People are welcome to argue that it's not enough to "justify" creating the site, but I feel it necessary to remind everyone what has actually happened.

As for spurring her on, that's nonsense. My website lists over 30 separate claims. By my estimate all but a couple were made before I created the site. The only ones I am sure that are new are the following:

* Healing

* Survived without water for a week or more on three different occasions. That's not really a paranormal claim - it's really just a grab for attention.

* Detecting a hand dunked in ice or making a fist, but that's really an extension of her previous claims. And she never actually said she could do it. She was just "studying" to see if she could.

So, where do you get off saying that she's "redoubling her efforts" as a result of my website? Where's your evidence?

As for your claims of publicity, that's nonsense. Nobody finds my site unless they are looking for it or see the link here. And that's exactly my goal. If she tries to expand her scope, like with contacting the Migraine Support Group, there's a resource beyond her website and the thousands of unorganized posts here. Most people seem to believe in woo. However, most of those people acknowledge that many are frauds or misguided. I believe I can reach those people should they choose to do the research.

If Anita wants attention, all she has to do is post here. And that's exactly what she does. Her story about going without water was posted here. She's made references to being an alien in other threads. I was not involved in any of those threads before she posted her fantasies.

She wrote the migraine story knowing I would post it. So, if your objection is that I acted as a middle-man, fine. Based on past behavior, I argue that she would have posted it here or on her website anyway. Furthermore, she told me she was contacting the Migraine Support Group before I posted her story. My actions had nothing to do with that decision.

So, where is your evidence that I am, as you put it, contributing to the problem? For that matter, why don't you define what the problem is in the first place?

[VisionFromFeeling]

I remember that you and VfF were privately communicating long before your website. I think your interview thread with her here was an outgrowth of that private communication. Correct me if I'm wrong on the timeline.

So, although you had a private correspondance with her before your website, the moderated status of the threads was not conducive to continuing that relationship. I know the relationship has had its ups and downs both earlier (when she said she was going to unfriend you) and later after you created your website (when she kept trying to contact you over and over after you asked her not to). I assume she has to pay more attention to you when you are a webmaster than when you are one of many posters here. That puts you in a unique position with her---you, to a certain extent, control what the world knows of her.Anyone can contact me and have a live chat over Skype (VisionFromFeeling) with me or even PM me for my phone number. There is no particular reason why UncaYimmy seems to be in that unique position.

[Audible Click]

I'd like to add, that if you type "Anita Ikonen" into the Google search engine the Stop VfF forum shows up as the second link, this at least gives anyone who is researching her claims an opposite point of view from her website.

[VisionFromFeeling]

* She did "readings" of people she "just met"They are friends.
* She gave medical advice about a heart conditionHe confirmed that he has a heart condition and has had heart pains.
* She very seriously discussed the possibility of winning a Nobel.Only after you told me that if I pass the test someone else will get the Nobel prize for the discovery of my paranormal ability, and when I said that it belongs to me, you said, "that's not how I'm going to play it". I remember that. Of course I want to be entitled to any rewards for my work and for my ability, however I am not expecting a Nobel prize.
* She contacted Dr. Emoto and volunteered to help him conduct his water crystal studies.I am very interested in most things dealing with light matter interaction and even like to look into pseudoscientific claims related to it.
* She contacted at least one other woo practitioner to share her experiences.I am investigating.
* She wrote on her website that she was making fun of people here and only visited this site to "have fun" with the skeptics.That is a misunderstanding of what I meant.
* HealingThose that I have attempted to heal think that I have healed them, whereas I remain skeptical, and that is why things are getting interesting now.
* Survived without water for a week or more on three different occasions. That's not really a paranormal claim - it's really just a grab for attention.It was the truth and I mentioned it to correct when someone said that humans can't survive for four days without drinking. I don't talk about it because it is dangerous to promote it.

[desertgal]

It was the truth and I mentioned it to correct when someone said that humans can't survive for four days without drinking. I don't talk about it because it is dangerous to promote it.

Nonsense. Someone mentioned in a thread, five years ago, an old saying about "four days without water". They did not state it, nor did anyone accept it, five years ago, as an established fact that applies to every member of the human race. You posted your claim to draw attention to yourself. Period. If you "don't talk about it", then you wouldn't have brought it up at all.

And your claim:
"What it is is not the same as simply "not eating". I have tried "simply not eating and drinking" and it does not produce the same results. If I simply don't eat and drink I will get hungry, will feel thirsty, will quickly within one day develop all the signs of needing and wanting to eat and drink, and of course would cancel it. However what this is, is a choice...Call it fully placebo, if you will, and if that's what it is, but something happens. There is no sensation of thirst, no hunger, no feeling of need to eat or drink. The obvious signs of starvation and dehydration that are very apparent if simply "not eating/drinking" - are not there."
is simply more delusional fantasy.

None of it happened. Ever. The events you describe exist only in your mind.

[Uncayimmy]

They are friends.

So what I said is true.

He confirmed that he has a heart condition and has had heart pains.
So what I said is true.

Only after you told me that if I pass the test someone else will get the Nobel prize for the discovery of my paranormal ability, and when I said that it belongs to me, you said, "that's not how I'm going to play it". I remember that. Of course I want to be entitled to any rewards for my work and for my ability, however I am not expecting a Nobel prize.

So what I said is true.

I am very interested in most things dealing with light matter interaction and even like to look into pseudoscientific claims related to it.
So what I said is true.

I am investigating.
So what I said is true.

That is a misunderstanding of what I meant.
So what I said is true.

Those that I have attempted to heal think that I have healed them, whereas I remain skeptical, and that is why things are getting interesting now.
So what I said is true.

It was the truth and I mentioned it to correct when someone said that humans can't survive for four days without drinking. I don't talk about it because it is dangerous to promote it.
So what I said is true.

What was the point of picking certain things I wrote to confirm them? What about the others?

[Uncayimmy]

Below is a Skype "chat" (not really a chat since I didn't respond) with VFF. I don't know if her story is true, but she claims that somebody e-mailed her requesting VFF use her Super Powers to diagnose an illness. I guess it was only a matter of time. Read what she wrote yourself. It sounds like she's going to decline, but she doesn't come right out and say it. Actually, what she says she's going to write is the same type of disclaimer she told us she gives people before doing readings.

[9/1/2009 2:48:12 PM] Anita Ikonen: I received an e-mail from a woman who is asking for my help! She says that conventional medicine has been unable to diagnose her illness.
[9/1/2009 2:48:47 PM] Anita Ikonen: If my medical perceptions aren't reality based, there is no way I could go meet with a woman and tell her nonsense about her medical condition. I don't think I will do it.
[9/1/2009 2:50:20 PM] Anita Ikonen: Medical instruments must be tested and approved before use, and that would include any medical intuitive. And I don't have my certification yet.
[9/1/2009 2:50:33 PM] Anita Ikonen: If I ever will.
[9/1/2009 2:58:11 PM] Anita Ikonen: I am writing to her to advise her to keep her confidence in conventional medicine even though conventional medicine is not always perfect, and to explain that I am not a licenced health practitioner.
[9/1/2009 2:58:30 PM] Anita Ikonen: How's THAT for not being Brent Atwater!

[Ashles]

[9/1/2009 2:48:47 PM]Anita Ikonen: If my medical perceptions aren't reality based, there is no way I could go meet with a woman and tell her nonsense about her medical condition. I don't think I will do it.


"I don't think I will do it"??? She hasn't completely ruled it out???

I hope she mentioned to this woman that she was in effect asking to be dignosed by someone who thinks they might have nothing more than synesthesia.

And thanks to Anita we are once again graphically reminded of the reason for the existence of Unca Yimmy's site - StopVisionFromFeeling (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/).

[Audible Click]

I really,really, hope that this e-mail is just a fiction of hers, if it's not then this could be very scary.

[TheSkepticCanuck]

I really,really, hope that this e-mail is just a fiction of hers, if it's not then this could be very scary.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[krelnik]

(Perhaps this is off-topic for this thread, moderators please move to appropriate spot if need be...)

Vision From Feeling has agreed to be tested for IIGWest's $50,000 paranormal challenge. Press release: Psychic ‘Eyes’ $50,000 Prize! Hollywood skeptics to determine if applicant can “see” inside the human body (http://www.iigwest.org/investigations/2009/20091025_pressrelease.html)


Anita Ikonen — a 26 year old student from University of North Carolina at Charlotte — claims she can see inside the human body without the aid of an MRI or X-Ray machine. During this preliminaryAnita Ikonen demonstration Ms. Ikonen will be presented with multiple human test subjects and asked to identify those who are missing internal organs. If she is successful Anita will move on to the formal test for the IIG’s “$50,000 Challenge,” and potentially go for a one million dollar prize offered by the godfather of skepticism — James Randi. The demonstration will be conducted at the offices of the Center for Inquiry in Hollywood on November 21, 2009.

[William Smith]

(Perhaps this is off-topic for this thread, moderators please move to appropriate spot if need be...)

Vision From Feeling has agreed to be tested for IIGWest's $50,000 paranormal challenge. Press release: Psychic ‘Eyes’ $50,000 Prize! Hollywood skeptics to determine if applicant can “see” inside the human body (http://www.iigwest.org/investigations/2009/20091025_pressrelease.html)

Off-topic or not, it is valuable information to have. Thanks.

If you like, you could start a thread in the MDC subforum. It should be on-topic since it is aimed at the MDC itself.

Thanks again.

[JoeTheJuggler]

(Perhaps this is off-topic for this thread, moderators please move to appropriate spot if need be...)

Vision From Feeling has agreed to be tested for IIGWest's $50,000 paranormal challenge.

Not exactlly.

She and IIG have agreed to a preliminary test protocol, but they have postponed discussions or negotiations on a protocol for a test for the $50K.

As it stands, no matter what she does on this test, there is no chance of her winning $50K.

I think it's worse than not doing a test, since the results are meaningless. (And the protocol is being kept secret because apparently it's important that the subjects be kept in the dark, which makes me suspect that the protocol allows for cold reading techniques.)

[William Smith]

Not exactlly.

She and IIG have agreed to a preliminary test protocol, but they have postponed discussions or negotiations on a protocol for a test for the $50K.

As it stands, no matter what she does on this test, there is no chance of her winning $50K.

I think it's worse than not doing a test, since the results are meaningless. (And the protocol is being kept secret because apparently it's important that the subjects be kept in the dark, which makes me suspect that the protocol allows for cold reading techniques.)

Did some browsing, found nothing. Where did you get that from? Thanks.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Did some browsing, found nothing. Where did you get that from? Thanks.

Yeah, I couldn't get that from reading the IIG press release. It came out from people who are privy to more information (include Anita). See the other active VFF thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=157453&page=2).

[alleracsum]

I'm new around here and coming in late but it sounds to me like Joe the Juggler and others do not have all the information and are engaging in a lot of speculation and theorizing based on, well... nothing. Are you criticizing the IIG protocol (which you have not seen) or criticizing the IIG for not letting you see it? :confused:

[Uncayimmy]

FYI, I have taken the step of revoking Anita's posting privileges on my board because she started a thread threatening to be bring "charges" against one of the participants in the chat room, Lex, who works at UNCC. She is falsely accusing her of leading some sort of hate campaign and is once again lying about things that have been done.

http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/197/afv/topic/Default.aspx

[William Smith]

FYI, I have taken the step of revoking Anita's posting privileges on my board because she started a thread threatening to be bring "charges" against one of the participants in the chat room, Lex, who works at UNCC. She is falsely accusing her of leading some sort of hate campaign and is once again lying about things that have been done.

http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/197/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Great you worked things out. I'm glad you're back.

Engage.

[wardenclyffe]

UncaYimmy,

Thank you for removing the inappropriate post that someone recently made to your website. It's nice that you allow a little more venting at your site than is allowed around here, but it's also nice to know that you won't let it go too far.

Ward

[wardenclyffe]

So, is www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com dead? I tried checking it a week or so ago and it didn't seem to work. I just tried again and I still get an error. Are we done?

Ward

[wardenclyffe]

She's gone. Is there still a reason for this thread to be moderated?

Just askin',
Ward

[Uncayimmy]

So, is www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com dead? I tried checking it a week or so ago and it didn't seem to work. I just tried again and I still get an error. Are we done?

Ward

I should have announced it here. Sorry. I host several sites on a virtual private server. The VPS went down. Turns out a drive went bad, but after getting things almost back up and going through a long integrity check, they found out the RAID controller was bad. They then went to provision a new VPS, couldn't pull the data from the old system (so much for redundant array of independent disks. Then they found out the other backups were corrupt as well. Then there were problems with Plesk. It's been one nightmare after another. I'm still trying to get things back up, with StopVFF being near the bottom of the list being a DNN site.

I've been with these people 11 years now, and never has anything like this happened. I know they do backups because I've had things get hinky before. They are being very good to me to make up for all the trouble.

Sigh...Too bad I can no longer pull all-nighters. My sleep doc says it's a major no-no when it comes to delayed sleep phase syndrome.

[Locknar]

I have removed this thread from Moderated Status; play nice!

[wardenclyffe]

Looks like it's back: www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com

Glad it didn't disappear forever.

Ward