Hillary Clinton leaves flowers for Our Lady of Guadalupe, asks ‘Who painted it?’

[shecky]

During her recent visit to Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made an unexpected stop at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe and left a bouquet of white flowers “on behalf of the American people,” after asking who painted the famous image.

OOPS (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15511).

Until now, I don't think Ms Clinton has ever done anything so endearing. Who painted it, indeed!

[Cainkane1]

I saw a program on the painting some years ago. The painting is removed and repainted every few years. Artist unknown.

[RobRoy]

Until now, I don't think Ms Clinton has ever done anything so endearing. Who painted it, indeed!

Wait, you're down on Mrs. Clinton because she doesn't know a particular woo origin?

[kittynh]

well it's pretty big woo in MExico. Our Lady is more a cultural icon, a symbol of Mexican pride and native rights.

I am dealing with an idiot that is sure she was an alien that some poor peasant did not KNOW was an alien from outerspace. Right...

Joe Nickell has a great write up about the image. yes it is a painting and we even DO know who painted it. A rather well known for the time folk artist.

[Elizabeth I]

So let me get this straight...first she tried to get cute with the Russian Prime Minister or ambassador or whatever he was and a "Reset" button with the word "Reset" mistranslated. Now she disses Mexico's cultural icon (no, I don't think it's a miraculous image. But I do know it's important to lots of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans for reasons which have little or nothing to do with religion.)

This is the smartest woman in the world? The one who's going to repair our international image?

[Minarvia]

Wait, you're down on Mrs. Clinton because she doesn't know a particular woo origin?

I think this too, even tho I'm no fan of Hilary's. How can someone know EVERYTHING about another country and all it's...woo? I don't think her question was unreasonable or dumb. I think it was actually flattering in that she was likely admiring the work.

[Ysidro]

Well hell, I don't know a damn thing about it. I mean, I've heard the name but that's about it. Kinda finding it hard to get all worked up about it.

[Wowbagger]

I'd probably ask the same question.

(Though, I would also probably try to find the right answer.)

[Ladewig]

This is the smartest woman in the world?

Where did that come from? I have never heard her called that by anyone.

[Puppycow]

Notice the last paragraph of that article (from the Catholic News Agency):

This evening Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is set to receive the highest award given by Planned Parenthood Federation of America -- the Margaret Sanger Award, named for the organization's founder, a noted eugenicist. The award will be presented at a gala event in Houston, Texas.


It doesn't bother me in the least that Clinton wasn't aware of this ridiculous trivial bit of woo.
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was miraculously imprinted by Mary on the tilma, or cloak, of St. Juan Diego in 1531. The image has numerous unexplainable phenomena, such as the appearance on Mary’s eyes of those present in the room when the tilma was opened and the image’s lack of decay.Oh, puh-leeze. :rolleyes:
After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!” O RLY? :rolleyes:

[Elizabeth I]

I think this too, even tho I'm no fan of Hilary's. How can someone know EVERYTHING about another country and all it's...woo? I don't think her question was unreasonable or dumb. I think it was actually flattering in that she was likely admiring the work.

Well hell, I don't know a damn thing about it. I mean, I've heard the name but that's about it. Kinda finding it hard to get all worked up about it.

I'd probably ask the same question.

(Though, I would also probably try to find the right answer.)

She is the U.S.'s highest-ranking diplomat. She didn't have to wax rhapsodic about the deep religious significance of the thing but she should have been aware of its national and cultural significance for Mexico. SHE'S THE FLIPPIN' SECRETARY OF STATE!

[Minarvia]

She is the U.S.'s highest-ranking diplomat. She didn't have to wax rhapsodic about the deep religious significance of the thing but she should have been aware of its national and cultural significance for Mexico. SHE'S THE FLIPPIN' SECRETARY OF STATE!

Perhaps. But if she should have known I think she would have. She's not stupid, imo.

[Bob Klase]

After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!”

To which Mrs. Clinton replied, "No, come on, who painted it really?".

(Not really, but that would have been cool).

[shecky]

She is the U.S.'s highest-ranking diplomat. She didn't have to wax rhapsodic about the deep religious significance of the thing but she should have been aware of its national and cultural significance for Mexico. SHE'S THE FLIPPIN' SECRETARY OF STATE!

Having grown up a Catholic Latino in Southern California, I am pretty well aware of the whole background. However, despite the iconic existence Our Lady of Guadalupe enjoys even around here, it's not surprising for folks to be unaware that this image, which commonly adorns candles, walls, t-shirts and skin, is actually believed to be of supernatural origin.

I might say Clinton was clueless if she didn't know the image was so iconic. Not so much for failing to know that the image is seriously believed to be of divine origin.

[qayak]

Wait a minute! Skeptics on a skeptics list are dissin' Hilary Clinton for being skeptical?

[NorfolkAtheist]

She is the U.S.'s highest-ranking diplomat. She didn't have to wax rhapsodic about the deep religious significance of the thing but she should have been aware of its national and cultural significance for Mexico. SHE'S THE FLIPPIN' SECRETARY OF STATE!

Agreed! There is no possible way Hillary Clinton can be an effective Secretary of State without knowing this! :rolleyes:


This is nothing more than a mildly amusing anecdote; to make it into a serious criticism is lame.

[Foolmewunz]

Can anyone find a legitimate news source for the quote? Everything I can find cites the Catholic News article.

Who was with the Clinton entourage from CNA? They don't seem to say. Not that they have anything against Hillary or want to discredit her in any way, I mean look at the fair treatment in their last paragraph.

[qayak]

Agreed! There is no possible way Hillary Clinton can be an effective Secretary of State without knowing this! :rolleyes:


This is nothing more than a mildly amusing anecdote; to make it into a serious criticism is lame.

At best it would be lame assuming Hilary didn't know the paintings background. Suppose she did know but refused to be bamboozled by a religious icon. Asking the question is the polite way to say "I think this is ************!"

Perhaps she is the smartest woman in the world! :p

[a_unique_person]

OOPS (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15511).

Until now, I don't think Ms Clinton has ever done anything so endearing. Who painted it, indeed!

:)

[six7s]

OP LINK (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15511)
After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!”There's no such thing as a stupid question

But they are the easiest to answer

[qayak]

OP LINK (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15511)
There's no such thing as a stupid question

But they are the easiest to answer

Well, when the answer can be as wrong as that one (he could have said, "table lamps" and been as accurate) any question is easy to answer.

[six7s]

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:7XV3fMbcZ086mM::http://www.arkpilot.com/images/our%2520lady%2520of%2520guadalupe.jpg'
www.arkpilot.com/quatlasupe.html (http://www.arkpilot.com/quatlasupe.html)

he could have said, "table lamps" and been as accurateIf I was in Hillary's shoes, my next comment would have been 'God huh? Crap at art then, ain't he?'

[qayak]

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:7xv3fmbcz086mm::http://www.arkpilot.com/images/our%2520lady%2520of%2520guadalupe.jpg'
www.arkpilot.com/quatlasupe.html (http://www.arkpilot.com/quatlasupe.html)

if i was in hillary's shoes, my next comment would have been 'god huh? Crap at art then, ain't he?'

:D

ETA: My God! Is that the baby Jesus looking up her dress?!?!

ETA: I guess he can't believe she's a virgin either.

[Puppycow]

To which Mrs. Clinton replied, "No, come on, who painted it really?".

(Not really, but that would have been cool).

Or, "You mean that someone was inspired by their belief in god to paint it?"

If I was in Hillary's shoes, my next comment would have been 'God huh? Crap at art then, ain't he?'

For the Almighty, it is a rather pedestrian rendering. Clearly several mortals have done much better work than that. Da Vinchi, Michelangelo, etc.

[Skeptic]

The point is not that the painting is really by God. The point is Clinton's ignorance of the claim that it is. It's like going into a church and asking the priest, "Gee, that guy there on the cross -- who is he supposed to be again?"

If the priests says "God", that might not be true, but it's hardly the priest that's being an idiot here.

[arthwollipot]

Wait a minute! Skeptics on a skeptics list are dissin' Hilary Clinton for being skeptical?The point is, she wasn't being skeptical. She was being ignorant. There's nothing inherently wrong with this - we're all ignorant of many things - so I don't think it's terribly worth lampooning except for the fact that she's a very famous person.

[six7s]

It's like going into a church and asking the priest, "Gee, that guy there on the cross -- who is he supposed to be again?"No... it isn't


Every Catholic church has a crucifix

Heaps of 'em have portraits and/or statues of Teh BVM
Many of those portraits and statues are 'famous' works of art

[Puppycow]

The point is not that the painting is really by God. The point is Clinton's ignorance of the claim that it is. It's like going into a church and asking the priest, "Gee, that guy there on the cross -- who is he supposed to be again?"

If the priests says "God", that might not be true, but it's hardly the priest that's being an idiot here.

I know who the guy on the cross is supposed to be, but I didn't know about this obscure fairy tale until reading this thread.

[six7s]

I know who the guy on the cross is supposed to be, but I didn't know about this obscure fairy tale until reading this thread.As a collapsed catholic, I have a vague recollection that the Guadalupe madonna is 'super-duper-natural'

Apart from big arsey RCs, trivia fans, art buffs and other eccentric weirdos, I have a hunch that few people do know/remember that the portrait is supposed to be mucho-mucho-woo

[PixyMisa]

The point is, she wasn't being skeptical. She was being ignorant. There's nothing inherently wrong with this - we're all ignorant of many things - so I don't think it's terribly worth lampooning except for the fact that she's a very famous person.
Well, and Secretary of State. I wouldn't necessarily expect her to know stuff like this, but I'd certainly expect her staff to have done their homework and given her the 5-minute briefing.

Still not worth the fuss that's being made in some quarters.

[RobRoy]

As a collapsed catholic, I have a vague recollection that the Guadalupe madonna is 'super-duper-natural'

Apart from big arsey RCs, trivia fans, art buffs and other eccentric weirdos, I have a hunch that few people do know/remember that the portrait is supposed to be mucho-mucho-woo

Same here. I was born in raised in the Western United States (mostly Utah and Nevada) with some heavy Latino populations. The first time I came into contact with the Lady of Guadualupe legend was when I was in college in New Mexico and I was taking an anthropology class which specifically dealt with religion. At that time, it was only mentioned in passing in regards to how a religious icon could also become culturalry revered.

[Dragonrock]

When the Secretary of State goes anywhere she would be surrounded by staff who's jobs are to know things. Every visit involves several people covering government, religion, culture, traditions, and just about anything else you can imagine. The reason for this is that little mistakes like this can be extremely offensive to locals and can embarrass the American government. Someone should have briefed her on this and explained the background of the painting. Either this briefing didn't occur and someone is now out of a job or the briefing did occur and Hillary forgot.

[RobRoy]

Either this briefing didn't occur and someone is now out of a job or the briefing did occur and Hillary forgot.

There are additional events that might have taken place:

A briefing occured, but no one thought it necessary to update Mrs. Clinton on every aspect of woo that she might encounter.
A briefing occured, and it was thought that Mrs. Clinton was already aware of this particular religious/cultural belief.

It wasn't a gaffe for Clinton to ask the origin of the painting, it was arrogant presumption on the part of the monsignor to respond in an indignant manner to an informational query, rather than see it as a chance to share the "origin" myth of this particular event. It's only being picked up because the monsignor made this response as a kind of outraged, shocked, how-could-you-not-know-this, which is a very lame.

[Dragonrock]

There are additional events that might have taken place:

A briefing occured, but no one thought it necessary to update Mrs. Clinton on every aspect of woo that she might encounter.
A briefing occured, and it was thought that Mrs. Clinton was already aware of this particular religious/cultural belief.

It wasn't a gaffe for Clinton to ask the origin of the painting, it was arrogant presumption on the part of the monsignor to respond in an indignant manner to an informational query, rather than see it as a chance to share the "origin" myth of this particular event. It's only being picked up because the monsignor made this response as a kind of outraged, shocked, how-could-you-not-know-this, which is a very lame.

First, to be open and honest, I HATE Hillary Clinton with a passion. I earned this hatred by seeing how badly she treats people when the cameras are off, not once but dozens of times over a 4 year period. So, I doubt that I would be able to unbiasedly consider anything she has done.

But, my point is that gaffes like this should never happen. If the president says something stupid in a speech to the local Shriner's club then it's late night TV fodder. If the secretary of state unintentionally insults someone in another country then it's an international incident. So there are procedures in place to prevent problems like this. Even spur-of-the-moment visits by cabinet officials are scripted to some degree and either Mrs. Clinton went off script or she wasn't given the information she needed.

The main attribute of this particular artifact is its supposed divine creation. The briefing should have started with "This is a picture of the Virgin Mary that supposedly magically appeared on some guy's coat." Whether it is really how it was formed is not an issue. Her not knowing of the picture's origin is the equivalent of asking "Who's that an image of?" when viewing the Shroud of Turin.

[Sunstealer]

Blimey - doesn't the US of A provide a cultural adviser or two, so that Hillary can get some background info on where she is visiting? I think Gordon Brown should present Obama with a set of Lonely Planet guides in return for the region 1 DVD boxset Obama gave him. Cringe.

[Elizabeth I]

The point is not that the painting is really by God. The point is Clinton's ignorance of the claim that it is. It's like going into a church and asking the priest, "Gee, that guy there on the cross -- who is he supposed to be again?"

If the priests says "God", that might not be true, but it's hardly the priest that's being an idiot here.

When the Secretary of State goes anywhere she would be surrounded by staff who's jobs are to know things. Every visit involves several people covering government, religion, culture, traditions, and just about anything else you can imagine. The reason for this is that little mistakes like this can be extremely offensive to locals and can embarrass the American government. Someone should have briefed her on this and explained the background of the painting. Either this briefing didn't occur and someone is now out of a job or the briefing did occur and Hillary forgot.

First, to be open and honest, I HATE Hillary Clinton with a passion. I earned this hatred by seeing how badly she treats people when the cameras are off, not once but dozens of times over a 4 year period. So, I doubt that I would be able to unbiasedly consider anything she has done.

But, my point is that gaffes like this should never happen. If the president says something stupid in a speech to the local Shriner's club then it's late night TV fodder. If the secretary of state unintentionally insults someone in another country then it's an international incident. So there are procedures in place to prevent problems like this. Even spur-of-the-moment visits by cabinet officials are scripted to some degree and either Mrs. Clinton went off script or she wasn't given the information she needed.

The main attribute of this particular artifact is its supposed divine creation. The briefing should have started with "This is a picture of the Virgin Mary that supposedly magically appeared on some guy's coat." Whether it is really how it was formed is not an issue. Her not knowing of the picture's origin is the equivalent of asking "Who's that an image of?" when viewing the Shroud of Turin.

What Skeptic and Dragonrock said. She didn't have to fall to her knees and worship the thing, just avoid being ignorant about it.

[six7s]

Can anyone find a legitimate news source for the quote? Everything I can find cites the Catholic News article.Ahaaaa! Apply critical thinking! What a novel idea! :)

As far as I can tell, it seems little more than a storm in a teacup

Google News: Results 1 – 4 of about 50 for Hillary-Clinton Our-Lady-of-Guadalupe (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Hillary%20Clinton%22%20%22Our%20Lady%20of%20G uadalupe%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn)

Canada Free Press - A Conservative Free Press Hillary’s Mexico Visit Blunders Ignored by Old Media (http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9754)
By Warner Todd Huston Monday, March 30, 2009
Thus far, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has made two diplomatic blunders during her visit to Mexico that the U.S. Old Media are shockingly uninterested in highlighting. One was a policy blunder and the other a cultural/religious one.

[RobRoy]

But, my point is that gaffes like this should never happen. If the president says something stupid in a speech to the local Shriner's club then it's late night TV fodder. If the secretary of state unintentionally insults someone in another country then it's an international incident.

Who did she insult by asking the origin of the image? The monsignor too umbrage where none was needed or intended.

I don't give two damns about Clinton myself, but all this assumed outrage over a gaffe is just silly.

[six7s]

People who are easily offended should be, often

:)

[ponderingturtle]

It just seems a little strange, I mean she is not even catholic. I suspect the catholics would be equaly angry at any failure to understand any particular local saint(an ever growing number since the last pope).

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

....

This is the smartest woman in the world? The one who's going to repair our international image?


It's unwise to confuse intelligence with education.

Hillary's very smart (I'll omit the, "in a predatory, feral kind of way," for the sake of the more sensitive in the audience) (Oops! Did I say that out loud?!?!?). She's just been uninformed, misinformed, or ill-advised.

I'd say that she needs some better... or at least more rigorous... researchers on her briefing staff: It's spelled, 'G', 'O', 'O', 'G', 'L', 'E', guys!

[six7s]

I suspect the catholics would be equaly angry at any failure to understand ...Angry? Maybe some... Others would bask in a perverse self-satisfied patronising smugness that comes from being in the know

[Foolmewunz]

Ahaaaa! Apply critical thinking! What a novel idea! :)

As far as I can tell, it seems little more than a storm in a teacup

Google News: Results 1 – 4 of about 50 for Hillary-Clinton Our-Lady-of-Guadalupe (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Hillary%20Clinton%22%20%22Our%20Lady%20of%20G uadalupe%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn)

Canada Free Press - A Conservative Free Press Hillary’s Mexico Visit Blunders Ignored by Old Media (http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9754)
By Warner Todd Huston Monday, March 30, 2009

Well, call me a cynic, but I just can't find any article confirming her faux pas other than the one from a rather biased source.

Hillary had been there once before. Do we really think that she wouldn't have learned, in two visits, that this was a relic and icon in Mexico? And the only report is from a blatantly anti-Hillary source? (Any article that reports it either cites the source directly, or uses words from it in their own article.)

Oh, well, ..... Why let the facts get in the way of ranting, eh?

[Minarvia]

Who did she insult by asking the origin of the image? The monsignor too umbrage where none was needed or intended.

I don't give two damns about Clinton myself, but all this assumed outrage over a gaffe is just silly.

Absolutely. If every gaffe by some political figure in the world was monitored the news would be full, I'm sure. No-one can know everything. Also, I'm sure there is always a bit of "stage fright" that occurs and people can't always think or recall things on the spur of the moment. But regardless of the reason, this IS just silly. She clearly meant no offense and that is what is important, imo.