help - my boss thinks Reiki good for treating torture survivors

[Tanja]

My supervisor thinks that Reiki, homeopathy, aromatherapy and acupuncture are relevant in treating torture survivors

This is my first thread – and I really need some help here.

I work for an organisation which is helping victims of crime, many of who are torture survivors. We are organising a seminar for local mental health professionals, charitable organisations and NGOs as we are trying to establish a referral network for our clients.

I realised today that in addition to psychiatrists and psychologists, there will be a guy representing a “holistic healing” organisation which specialises in “complementary therapy” and has “experts” in acupuncture, Reiki, osteopathy (don’t know what that one is) and aromatherapy.

I talked to my supervisor today expressing my surprise that such an organisation was invited. She told me she thought that “alternative medicine” has its place in the treatment of torture survivors, and she thought they were more effective than psychiatry as ”the worst you can do to a traumatised person is just prescribe him a drug”. She also pulled that old argument that “acupuncture is more than a 1000 years old” – I said so was astrology, and that does not make astrology true. She also said there might be something in homeopathy as “it has been proven that water retains memory of the diluted substance and that as a consequence it forms ice crystals differently”. I said that to my knowledge homeopathy is just giving people water, and I referred to the study in England, which showed it had no effect (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml).

I accepted that it is possible to find some positive effect in some of these “therapies” on some clients due to placebo effect (and I do think placebo effect is a wonderful thing), and due to factors not related to the claims of the practice – a Reiki practitioner can be a good supportive listener, so that might have some positive effect, which has nothing to do with Reiki. I pointed to her that the danger with taking such treatment always lies in not getting real medical assistance or treatment instead - I gave her an example of bacterial infection – and how it would go if she opted for a Reiki session instead of a course of antibiotics.

Anyway, my supervisor told me “gee, if you are so narrow-minded now how will you be when you grow old” (I will be a grumpy old skepchic).

So what arguments do you think I could present to her? I always think of all the good answers a couple of days or weeks after a debate takes place. Please help.

PS. By the way, I googled about the ice crystals and only found claims by some Japanese guy claiming that water crystals deform when you say to it “I will kill you”, mention Hitler or play Heavy Metal, but form happy crystals when you say “I love you” or pray (I am not making it up, someone is really making those claims, e.g. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/water4.php).

[geni]

well I assume that you know about this site (http://www.homeowatch.org/)

There is the clasic eating an entire bottle of homeopathic pills aproach but that can be expensive.

Edited to add: is there anyone else being invited who might be opposed to alturnative treatments?

[Nyarlathotep]

I don't know that ther is much more yoou can do than that which you have already tried. Generally, you can't use logic to get someone to give up a position that they didn't use logic to get into in the first place. Your boss seems to have arrived at her position due to wishful thinking rather than logic, so ther isn't much more you can do to change her mind. You could try going over her head, if that's possible, but as I don't know your work situation, I don't know if that would be advisable.

[Corey]

The "water reacts to emotions/music" guy has been brought up before, he is indeed fairly wacky...and doesn't do any of his "studies" under any sort of controls. I find your experience to be fairly similar to my own, trying to disuade my mother from getting acupuncture for her vertigo. My father called me narrow minded and told me I had "no honor" for my mother because I showed him a collection of data from medical studies showing that acupuncture in general had little to no consistent effect and that it had no measurable effect on her specific condition, according to 6 seperate clinical trials. I explained to him I didn't want her to give up on getting real medical treatment in favor of "alternative" medicine that would empty her wallet and leave her with same sense of disappointment and sadness (or more) she has now. (The thread is here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30813) if you want to take a look).


Honestly, if you belong to an organization with ties to medicine and your supervisors operate off of quack data and anecdotal evidence with no basis in real science for treatments, I'm not sure what you could do. Except perhaps go higher up the chain of command, write a letter or send an email with some links to medical studies on the subject. If your motives are the well being of the people your institution gets treatment for, it shouldn't be viewed as negativity on your part.

The reasons why people continue to support homeopathic remedies and work up such an ellaborate and emotional series of defenses for it are beyond me personally. The whole "well, if it doesn't hurt them and they feel a little better, why not?" argument seems really irresponsible from the point of view of someone responsible for getting treatment to torture victims, not to mention collecting and allocating funds for that purpose. If I was supplying money for those treatments I dont' think I'd want to hear that they didn't do much, but didn't hurt the patient and made them feel a little better within the realm of the placebo effect. Plus, I notice a tendency for people who are for homeopathy to discount bonafied medicine as being more harmful and emotionally negative to the patient, which is ironic and terribly ignorant.

[Corey]

By the way, welcome to the forum, hopefully (for you) not all your posts in the future will rise out of crisis.

[Tanja]

Originally posted by Corey

I find your experience to be fairly similar to my own, trying to disuade my mother from getting acupuncture for her vertigo.

I was just reading your thread actually (must be telepathy ;) )

I think that it is sad that many people just fall for the pseudo-scientific jargon. Most people I know would assume that something is a "scientific study" just because someone claims it is, or that something is a "branch of medicine" just because someone claims it is. Not to mention that if something has a really long name derived from greek/latin, it must be something very serious and professional.

[Tanja]

Originally posted by geni

Edited to add: is there anyone else being invited who might be opposed to alturnative treatments?

I certainly hope so, but I am afraid most people's attitude is "let them do their work, it can't do any harm, maybe there is something in it".

I have an urge to write the word nonsense. Nonsense. Nonsense. Nonsense. Nonsense.

[LFTKBS]

Go over your supervisor's head. Surely there's someone over there who rightly thinks that this is a misappropriation of funds.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Go over your supervisor's head. Surely there's someone over there who rightly thinks that this is a misappropriation of funds.
Damn right. If you're spending enough to provide 1000mg /day of thorazine, give it to 'em. None of this touchy/feely placebo (and/or homeopathic) dose nonsense.

Surely that's all torture victims would need? Well, maybe 2000mg for awhile. :p

[Tanja]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Go over your supervisor's head. Surely there's someone over there who rightly thinks that this is a misappropriation of funds.

The only funds involved are bringing the organisation to the seminar. Their "therapeutic work" is voluntary. Which my boss thought was another argument in their favour.

And homeopathy was mentioned by my boss just as an example of "proven" "alternative" approach. I am not sure if this organisation actually practice homeopathy - but they do practice Reiki and aromatherapy.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Tanja
My supervisor thinks that Reiki, homeopathy, aromatherapy and acupuncture are relevant in treating torture survivors


I'd recommend speaking with a compentent MD about specifics of complementary modalities.

[wayrad]

Perhaps you could point out that this sort of thing damages your organization's credibility. Are they dependent on donations? Do they depend on time and/or resources donated by the legitimate medical community? Will their presentation get any local news coverage? Just some ideas.

[Zep]

I would ask your boss to provide to HER boss all the supporting documentation she could that supports her position on homeopathy in this situation, and see how that goes down with them. That way it will be her word against her boss's, not hers against you (which you will NEVER win).

And you can stack the deck (influence the outcome) by having a private word in the big boss's ear in advance telling him/her all the stuff you have found already that shows this is bunkum. Just drop it into conversation if you like - make sure you mention that your boss is pushing for it, but do indicate that the staff think it makes the organisation look extremely silly, it is not supported by science, it's not effective for patients, and finally it's a waste of funds (it diverts paid staff from real work, so it DOES waste funds).

Good luck!

Good luck!

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Torture surviviors should be treated with rational and skeptical criticism or else they are doomed!

:crazy:

[Beleth]

Q: What do they call "alternative medicine" that works?


A: Medicine.

[Rolfe]

You could also go look at Bandolier (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/index.html). This site is specifically dedicated to evidence-based medicine. It is run by a very eminent professor at Oxford University, who is a consultant at the John Radcliffe Infirmary (I think) in the speciality of chronic pain management.

The site looks at the evidence for lots and lots of things, and it is intended as a patient resource. Most of it is work on genuine medicine, intended to guide patients to make the best informed choice for their situation. However, there is a very good "complementary medicine" section which tells it like it is regarding homoeopathy, acupuncture and quite a lot of other stuff. It's a very reputable site and you should find some help there.

Rolfe.

[RichardR]

Originally posted by Tanja
Anyway, my supervisor told me “gee, if you are so narrow-minded now how will you be when you grow old” Ask her if she is open minded enough to admit that maybe these therapies don't work, if there is no evidence that they do. If not then suggest that she withdraws the closed minded accusation from you and applies it to herself.

There has to be a reason to believe in something – some evidence. Would she consider that these alternative therapies might be false, if there is no evidence they are true (or in some cases evidence they are false)? If not, she is closed minded. Believers don't like to be asked to think this way. But remember, it was not an "open minded" believer who thought "daemons" caused disease, who discovered the germ theory. It was a scientist who only accepted what he had evidence for.

[Rose]

The only appeal to emotion I could think of here, is pointing out that torture survivors are not the group I'd want to be experimenting with in terms of alternative treatments. It sounds like in the venue you're talking about, that a number of people could be diverted from modalities of proven efficacy to treatments that do nothing. If someone wants to test their "alternative treatments" on a group of torture survivors, they need to do so with the clear understanding that those treatments have not been utilized or the utility of the treatments verified scientifically. If you have to, evoke the image of nazi scientists using concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes. It may be a cheap shot, but it's better than seeing this travesty go on.

[patnray]

That's a good point, Rose. And it brings up another issue: these treatments could be considered experimental. Will your organization have to get informed consent forms before providing unproven treatment methods to these people. Could you be subject to lawsuits if you do not?

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

**** it! Rational thinking is the only cure!