Secret trials breeds distrust of the government...

[headscratcher4]

Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico.

"Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6346960.html

Irony meter slamming hard against limit.

[Lonewulf]

But they're crime figures, not civilian-clothed stateless terrorists! Totally different -- they actually have human rights.

[WildCat]

Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico.

"Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6346960.html

Irony meter slamming hard against limit.
If it's ironic you must have a secret trial in mind the US has conducted?

[headscratcher4]

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

[Upchurch]

The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.
And that, my friend, does nothing but encourage trust of the government.

[FireGarden]

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.

[DC]

:jaw:

[quixotecoyote]

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.

Well, he can do whatever he wants to Gonzales, but we're not going to sit here and listen to him badmouth the United States of America!

(Ohhhh say can you seeeee)

[headscratcher4]

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.


Actually, I was criticising Gonzo. While there is much to criticize in the American legal system...as there would be in any vast establishment...there is much more that is worthy, ethical and to be proud of. Our system, for its many manifest failures, is a correcting system. It takes time, but wrongs are addressed. And, let us not forget that some of the greatest social progress made in the United States was made because courts could no longer sustain political fictions -- for example, "seperate but equal..."

But, back on topic, Gonzo, Addington, Cheney, Libby and Yoo are a particular problem. They are, by the very meaning of the word: subversive. I would argue dangerously so. However, if you want a good sense of how a system begins to right-itself, I would recommend the book "Angler." There is a great chapter in the book describing how the Bush/Chaney/Gonzo over-reach in the assertion of the so-called "unitary" executive and its right to, for example, spy domestically and without warrents, was checked. It wasn't checked by fringe activists, but by conservative lawyers who supported George Bush and his goals but who also understood that the law and power were being abused and drew a line in the sand, forcing the Bush Administration to begin reversing its over-reach.

[WildCat]

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.
Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

[DC]

Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

not in the case of War on Terrorism, IMHO.

[FireGarden]

More power to you, HeadScratcher.

[Lonewulf]

Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

Yes.

Should a legal government detain people in foreign prisons, so that they may do to prisoners what would be illegal to do in their own home country, in prisons kept secret from its own citizens? Yes or no?

If American soldiers are imprisoned and tortured in secret prisons, do you find this acceptable treatment? Yes or no?

Is it alright to say "We do not torture", when it's obvious that you do indeed torture? Yes or no?

Is it alright to say "We do not torture", and declare a method under questioning as "not torture", after attacking another country for that very same action as "torture" decades earlier? (see: Waterboarding)

[headscratcher4]

Yes...and we should also apply civilized standards to their incarceration...because, ultimately, the rule of law and respect for basic human rights is what separates us from the forces of chaos that would destroy us, IMO.

Our policies toward Gitmo detainees is the manifestation of that old delusion from the Vietnam war...we have to burn the village to save it. If what we end up with is ashes (our Constitution, our principles, our honor, our ethics, our rule of law destroyed), how is that different than what AlQeda wishes for us?