Truzzi on Randi & Geller

[Steve Knight]

Some of the late Marcello Truzzi's comments on the
Randi/Geller debate are now on-line @ www.zem.demon.co.uk/truzzi.htm

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Steve Knight
Some of the late Marcello Truzzi's comments on the
Randi/Geller debate are now on-line @ www.zem.demon.co.uk/truzzi.htm
Even more interesting comments can be accessed on the home page of that site under "Magicians and Uri Geller".

[Clancie]

Posted by Marcello Truzzi

At the same time that I don't believe in Uri's powers, I also do not believe his major claims have truly been disproved; that is, I don't think Randi and the others really have the smoking guns they imagine. Of course, I am talking here about his best effects...

The total situation with Uri is enormously complicated and probably involves some aspects of government disinformation, especially what happened at SRI
Wasn't Truzzi a founding CSICOP member who split with CSICOP (and Randi, too, I think) over what he felt was the mistaken belief that everything paranormal has to logically be untrue?

Didn't Truzzi still consider himself a skeptic, but repudiated CSICOP's/Randi's version of "skepticism" as being too dogmatic?

I wonder what he meant (in the above) about Geller's major claims for his abilities not being really debunked?


edited into past tense, thanks to JamesM flagging Truzzi's demise...:rs:

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey

Even more interesting comments can be accessed on the home page of that site under "Magicians and Uri Geller".

The fact remains, no one can actually do exactly what Uri does. As Peter Duffie says: "The very idea that one simply has to create a method that "resembles" the phenomenon = fraud, is totally silly. "

Or the account by Allan Slaight

"I am a true skeptic and had also read books and viewed videos on how magicians bend keys.

Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it. It was solid and hard to bend by force. He held it between one finger and thumb by the bowl and g-e-n-t-l-y rubbed it with a finger of his other hand. It began to bend!

Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described before. "

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Clancie



I wonder what he means about Geller's major claims for his abilities not being really debunked?

He's right. They haven't been properly debunked. Most people don't get much further than the slapstick which surrounds the whole story. But if you are prepared to do some unbiased research, you will discover that there is more to this than you may have been lead to believe. There was also a significant involvement with the CIA/Mossad back in the 70's, and this, no doubt has muddied the waters somewhat.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
The fact remains, no one can actually do exactly what Uri does.

Well, I'm still waiting for Uri to use his tremendous silverware-bending powers for the good of the world. Is that literally all he can do with his gift from (God/angels/aliens/Ba'al)?

I mean, that's a pretty lame-o superpower. I can bend spoons, too.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Clancie
Doesn't Truzzi still consider himself a skeptic, but repudiates CSICOP's/Randi's version of "skepticism" as being too dogmatic?
He's, erm, dead.

I suppose he could still be a skeptic. But that'd be pretty dogmatic.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


Well, I'm still waiting for Uri to use his tremendous silverware-bending powers for the good of the world. Is that literally all he can do with his gift from (God/angels/aliens/Ba'al)?

I mean, that's a pretty lame-o superpower. I can bend spoons, too.

It's not so much the effect, as the fact that it happens and cannot be sufficiently explained.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


It's not so much the effect, as the fact that it happens and cannot be sufficiently explained.

Hasn't he said that things can happen around him without him actually willing it to happen? That is the "after bending" thing, I believe.

[Clancie]

Posted by JamesM

He's, erm, dead.
Details, details...:p

Well, I guess I'll go change it into past tense...just for accuracy sake. :rs:

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
The fact remains, no one can actually do exactly what Uri does. As Peter Duffie says: "The very idea that one simply has to create a method that "resembles" the phenomenon = fraud, is totally silly. "

Or the account by Allan Slaight

"I am a true skeptic and had also read books and viewed videos on how magicians bend keys.

Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it. It was solid and hard to bend by force. He held it between one finger and thumb by the bowl and g-e-n-t-l-y rubbed it with a finger of his other hand. It began to bend!

Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described before. "

The fact remains that people can do exactly what Uri Geller does.

I have seen this trick performed by the Danish magician, Niels Krøjgaard. Up close. Real close. He has also done it on Danish TV.

It is a very cool trick, but I can't tell you how it is done (forum rules). However, a quick Google will do wonders...

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
It's not so much the effect, as the fact that it happens and cannot be sufficiently explained.

Sure, it can. The guy who sells the cutlery is on the Internet...

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen



Sure, it can. The guy who sells the cutlery is on the Internet...

Back of a match-box stuff. It is not the same thing at all.

"The visibly shocked Mayor said "I was just leaning forward to reach for the pepper when I heard and felt a rattle and found the back of the Jewel hanging outward and bending. It continued bending for a few minutes. My attendant David Ramsey, who has looked after the Jewel for more than 20 years, said he could not believe it had disintegrated because it had been as solid as a granite when he put it around my neck. I know some people say Geller is a magician but I don’t. I accept that he has psychic powers; he had not touched the jewel at any time.""

The Daily Post UK
12 Dec 2000

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Back of a match-box stuff. It is not the same thing at all.

Oh, it is exactly the same thing: A spoon bending while nobody is touching it. Very dramatic, not at all paranormal.

How do you explain that, Lucianarchy? How do you explain that magician Niels Krøjgaard can perform exactly the same trick on Danish TV that Uri Geller did before Allan Slaigh's eyes?

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
"The visibly shocked Mayor said "I was just leaning forward to reach for the pepper when I heard and felt a rattle and found the back of the Jewel hanging outward and bending. It continued bending for a few minutes. My attendant David Ramsey, who has looked after the Jewel for more than 20 years, said he could not believe it had disintegrated because it had been as solid as a granite when he put it around my neck. I know some people say Geller is a magician but I don’t. I accept that he has psychic powers; he had not touched the jewel at any time.""

The Daily Post UK
12 Dec 2000

What are you talking about? Link?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Oh, it is exactly the same thing: A spoon bending while nobody is touching it. Very dramatic, not at all paranormal.

How do you explain that, Lucianarchy? How do you explain that magician Niels Krøjgaard can perform exactly the same trick on Danish TV that Uri Geller did before Allan Slaigh's eyes?

He uses a trick spoon. Margolis provided his own. It bent in the hand of his son. He still has it. It is not a trick spoon.

[dharlow]

Steve, that's a great website. With all the lies, exagerrations, and distortions put forth by both Geller's supporters and detractors, it's nice to see that someone has taken the time to carefully sort out the facts.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
He uses a trick spoon. Margolis provided his own. It bent in the hand of his son. He still has it. It is not a trick spoon.

I wasn't talking about Margolis. I was talking about Allan Slaigh. The person you mentioned.

You want the story again? Sure, no problem:

"I am a true skeptic and had also read books and viewed videos on how magicians bend keys.

Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it. It was solid and hard to bend by force. He held it between one finger and thumb by the bowl and g-e-n-t-l-y rubbed it with a finger of his other hand. It began to bend!

Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described before. "

What happens here is exactly what happened when Niels Krøjgaard "bended" the spoon on Danish TV. Many, many thousands saw it, Lucianarchy.

I am waiting for your explanation.

[Thanz]

I bent a spoon once trying to serve some paranormally hard ice cream.... Does that count?

[TLN]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I am waiting for your explanation.

You'll never get it.

There's no way Lucianarchy is genuine. He's a small boy getting his jollies over pissing people off, nothing more.

[Bentspoon]

Quote by Lucian.......

"Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described beforeIt's my name sake.

Really - please !!!!

I have seen a few examples of Uri performances in the past (not live I should add) and he has never performed this trick for the cameras. Why not? Because he has never done it. His sleight of hand (you know after seeing hundreds of clever street magicians, it is an insult to them to use the term) is piss poor at best and there is always opportunity to exchange cutlery or he mysteriously loses his powers.

Isn't it curious that this major publicity hound (remember him sniffing around Blaine) could do something so profound but never for the cameras or general public. Just for his closest friends.

Christ can't you smell hogwash

Bentspoon

[Paladin]

"...As regards the alleged spoon bending effect among conjurors from 1968, I, too, would like to see that. Randi has often talked of Uri's effects appearing on the back of corn flakes boxes. I very much doubt it, and I know Randi was desperately looking for some such box a few years back when Uri was suing him over that remark.
Randi's "cereal box" comments were in regard to Uri and Shipi's mentalism act, not spoonbending or metal bending. You can look it up in Randi's book, "The Magic of Uri Geller".


But I think that the effect of spoon bending was original with Uri. Interestingly, Uri recently shared with me some stuff he got about some very early metal bending reported in Japan by psychic researchers there. He just learned about this recently and was quite surprised by it, so I doubt it was an influence on him anymore than the early Japanese thoughtography experiments had any influence on Ted Serios's later PK photo productions. Nor, so far as I have been able to ascertain, are there any cereal boxes with similar effects as Randi once claimed.
Interesting...why is it that Truzzi felt Uri could be trusted on this subject? It's as if he accepted anything Uri said without question. Not exactly skeptical, was he?

Truzzi, btw, revived the term "zetetic" as opposed to "skeptic" -- "zetetic" being what the Pyrrhonists referred to themselves as.

Rest in peace, Marcello.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I wasn't talking about Margolis. I was talking about Allan Slaigh. The person you mentioned.



Slaight is not only a skeptic, he is an expert in magic. He examined the spoon to make sure no trickery was involved. Just like Margolis' spoon, which he even bought himself.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Slaight is not only a skeptic, he is an expert in magic. He examined the spoon to make sure no trickery was involved. Just like Margolis' spoon, which he even bought himself.

That's odd, because for such an expert in magic, Google seem to be blissfully unaware of his existence. In fact, the only hit that is relevant (out of a whopping 7!) is....you guessed it: From Uri Geller's own site!

Perhaps you can provide some more references for this "expert in magic"?

What happened with Slaight was exactly what happened when Niels Krøjgaard "bended" the spoon on Danish TV. Many, many thousands saw it, Lucianarchy.

I am still waiting for your explanation.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I am still waiting for your explanation.

I have given it. Slaight is a skeptic and expert in magic. He examined the spoon. It was not a trick spoon.

[Ed]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I am still waiting for your explanation.


HAHAHAAaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahahahahahaaaaaa

Well, at least you won't get an unedited googol search:D

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


That's odd, because for such an expert in magic, Google seem to be blissfully unaware of his existence. In fact, the only hit that is relevant (out of a whopping 7!) is....you guessed it: From Uri Geller's own site!

Perhaps you can provide some more references for this "expert in magic"?


Sure. I do wonder about your research skills, Claus. :rolleyes: It does explain your limited knowledge though.

"A Little Magic Helped

It's always surprising when Canadian history is described as dull, considering that the country has produced more than its share of colourful, dynamic iconoclasts; of these, Allan Slaight may safely count himself among the more prominent.
Slaight was born in 1931 in Galt, Ontario, only four years after the founding of the company that would one day become synonymous with his name. His first inclinations gave little or no clue with regard to his destiny as a radio tycoon for, in his early years, it looked as if he might have his heart set on becoming the next Harry Houdini.
As a young man, Slaight worked as a travelling magician throughout Western Canada. He never forgot his early profession, and, in 1989, published a book detailing the magic tricks of early 20th century illusionist Stewart James."

http://www.broadcastdialogue.com/article_view.asp?action=view&idnumber=366

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
I have given it. Slaight is a skeptic and expert in magic. He examined the spoon. It was not a trick spoon.

But you started out with claiming that:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
The fact remains, no one can actually do exactly what Uri does. As Peter Duffie says: "The very idea that one simply has to create a method that "resembles" the phenomenon = fraud, is totally silly. "

And then, you pointed to the example of Alan Slaight.

But the trick that Slaight witnessed, was also witnessed by many, many thousands on Danish TV, performed by a professional magician.

So, it is not a "fact" that "no one can actually do exactly what Uri does."

Does this make you change your opinion on Geller, Lucianarchy?

RE Slaight:
"Slaight was born in 1931 in Galt, Ontario, only four years after the founding of the company that would one day become synonymous with his name."
...
"As a young man, Slaight worked as a travelling magician throughout Western Canada."
...
"But another medium was clearly in his blood, and he was quick to discover his real passion - broadcasting.
He began his chosen career in 1948 as a news reporter/announcer with CHAB Moose Jaw, and his early public magic performances in 1948 in towns and villages in southern Saskatchewan served to help promote the station.
Says Slaight: 'In 1948, my dad, who then owned the Moose Jaw Times-Herald, and a friend in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, who owned a Prince Albert newspaper, got together and bought CHAB Moose Jaw. I'd never been inside a radio station before - it was on the fourth floor of the local hotel and I remember that I went there and met some of the people. I fell in love with radio and I've been in it ever since.'"

So, at the tender age of 17, he abandons the career as a magician and turns to broadcasting. And, at the tender age of 58, publishes a book on a magician.

Not exactly an "expert in magic", Lucianarchy. Or you could perhaps point to references where Slaight is mentioned not for his work in broadcasting, but in magic?

Do you think it is impossible for a magician to be fooled?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Not exactly an "expert in magic", Lucianarchy.

You may like to believe such a thing. However, a published, professional, travelling magician, is certainly expert in magic enough to detect trickery. But we are not just talking about one magician here anyway.:rolleyes: David Blaine has observed him up close and stated that Uri's genuine. This is the point, Claus. Uri has simply not been debunked.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Or you could perhaps point to references where Slaight is mentioned not for his work in broadcasting, but in magic?



Sure. Again, I am amazed at you lack of research skills. And it does increasingly explain why you appear to know little on the subjects you engage in.

"The Chronicles took from 1978 to 1988 to complete, and during those ten years, some of the finest close-up magic in the period was explained in its pages. The work was drawn from magic's best:

Mike Skinner, Sam Schwartz, Edward Victor, Jacob Daley, Al Baker, George Sands, Tom Sellers, Jack Avis, Roy Walton, Cardini, Stewart Judah, The Amazing Randi, Derek Dingle, Allan Slaight, Alex Elmsley, Herb Zarrow, Frank Garcia, Martin Gardner, Francis Haxton, Gene Maze, Fr. Cyprian, Phil Goldstein, Tom Gagnon, Stewart James, Slydini, Dai Vernon, Gene Finnell, Jack Chanin, Ken Krenzel, John Cornelius, Jeff Busby, Sid Lorraine, Harvey Rosenthal, J. K. Hartman, Larry Jennings, S. Leo Horowitz, and many, many more . . . including Fulves himself."

http://www.empiremagic.com/docs/book19.html

Did you recognise any other fellow experts in magic there, Claus?
:rr:

[Paladin]

The important question:

Who has the spoon?

Is it still available for inspection?

If not, why haven't these important artifacts been preserved? They are evidence of something incredible, yet even Uri treats them as mere nothings -- even to the point of gluing them to his car. There should be a Uri Geller Museum of the New Paradigm, where researchers can examine his artifacts in a true science environment. Instead, people seem to have walked off with valuable evidence, which is now sadly tainted and can't be relied upon.

Can anyone explain how to debunk an anecdote?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Ohrryp
The important question:

Who has the spoon?

Is it still available for inspection?

If not, why haven't these important artifacts been preserved? They are evidence of something incredible, yet even Uri treats them as mere nothings -- even to the point of gluing them to his car. There should be a Uri Geller Museum of the New Paradigm, where researchers can examine his artifacts in a true science environment. Instead, people seem to have walked off with valuable evidence, which is now sadly tainted and can't be relied upon.

Can anyone explain how to debunk an anecdote?



Professor John Hasted (University of London):

"We possess four numbered and weighed brass Yale keys which were bent through angles of between 10 and 40 degrees under light stroking action by Mr. Geller. If, under symmetrical four-point loading, force pulses of the order of 500N (say 50Kgs of weight) had been applied to the keys, similar bends would have been produced. No loss of surface brightness or change of weight, within the supernatural error of 1mg was observed. Mr. Geller applied a light, stroking action between forefinger and thumb, or by forefinger, with key placed on the table. In all cases, several witnesses watched the entire operation intently from within 1 metre. In one case, the key was not stroked but was simply, held under a cold water tap. In all cases the bending took a time of the order of minutes to complete, and it usually appeared to continue for a short while after the stroking had been terminated. No physical, or chemical explanation of these phenomena is readily apparent. The mean grain size at the bent surface has been compared with that in unbent and mechanically bent specimens by x-ray reflection and electron micrograph. No significant change in grain orientation or size was noted."

Dr. Kit Pedler (Head of the Electron Microscopy Department, University of London):

"I have personally witnessed and experienced on two occasions the metal bending abilities of Uri Geller. These experiments were conducted under rigorous laboratory conditions. In these two experiments the thick steel rod I was holding and observing carefully bent, and continued to bend, in my own hand. One rod bent to 90 degrees during a period of approximately six minutes while I was holding it. The other steel rod bent after Uri Geller stroked it and continued bending on a glass table without anyone touching it. The steel rods were provided by myself. I consider the Geller effect to be a phenomenon which should be studied seriously by science."

Eldon Byrd (Former scientist at the American Naval Surface Weapons Center, Maryland, USA):

"The metal Uri bends is not subjected to force. I have seen the electron microscope photos of several items Uri has bent without force--the grain structure is very even; whereas, like items bent by force had a chaotic grain structure both at the margins and internally. I had a shadowgraph done of one of the Nitinol wires Uri touched while I was holding both ends. He altered the shape memory at the molecular level and caused it to go to an angle so acute that a similar piece broke when an attempt was made to bend it to such an acute angle. Also, an electron microscope photo of the wire at the bend revealed that stress marks were apparent along the wire due to the extrusion process by which the wire was made; however, there were no stress lines apparent longitudinally at the bend. A density analysis showed that the material in the wire was more dense on TOP of the bend where stretching should have occurred, not underneath as one would expect where compression occurred. I not only have seen many items continue to bend after Uri had touched them (mostly knife blades and forks that he had stroked with ONE finger); I have also had cutlery in my hand spontaneously bend and continue to bend over a five or six second period while Uri was across the room and had never interacted with the item."

http://www.demo.technocom.co.uk/hpnet/aftereffect.htm

[Lucianarchy]

Here's the Margolis account:

"[...] 'Would you like me to bend a spoon for you?' he said. We would, we confirmed. 'I'll go and get one,' he said.

At which point David produced one we had selected from home. It was an oversized teaspoon, chosen because it was thicker and heavier than most.

Uri steered us over to a radiator, saying it sometimes worked better if he was touching metal. He put his right hand on the radiator (which meant he couldn't use it to bend the spoon illicitly) and held the spoon half way down its handle between the thumb and forefinger of his left hand.

I was amused to note that nothing happened. Fifteen or 20 seconds passed, the four of us in a huddle. 'Look, it's bending,' Uri said. If it was, my children and I could not see it. 'David, hold out your hand,' Uri said. He placed the spoon flat on David's hand.

I dipped my head to see if there was a slight bend, which I could at least be polite about. Viewed side on, there was a barely perceptible warp of perhaps a few millimetres.

What must have been three seconds passed, but seemed like much longer. Then, like a miniature Loch Ness Monster arching its back upwards, a couple of centimetres south of the spoon's bowl spontaneously rose, until it was bent at a 90-degree angle and standing up from David's hand in an upside-down V. We gasped.

To see a spoon bend in Geller's hand, as everyone has on TV, is one thing. It could be a special spoon of some sort, he could be in collusion with the TV people, anything. But to watch your spoon bending and without Uri touching it at the time was disturbing.

I picked up the spoon to feel if it was warm, or had some caustic chemical on it. There was no chemical. I touched the bend point to my upper lip, a heat-sensitive spot. It was cold."
http://66.221.71.68/margolis.htm

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
You may like to believe such a thing. However, a published, professional, travelling magician, is certainly expert in magic enough to detect trickery. But we are not just talking about one magician here anyway.:rolleyes: David Blaine has observed him up close and stated that Uri's genuine.

A genuine...what? References? What is Blaine's opinion of Geller today? Has he changed his mind?

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
This is the point, Claus. Uri has simply not been debunked.

*BEEP*. Yes, he has. You keep ignoring the many, many thousands who saw Niels Krøjgaard perform Uri's trick on TV.

How do you explain that? It was the exact same trick, Lucianarchy: The cutlery kept on bending, with no touching whatsoever.

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Sure. Again, I am amazed at you lack of research skills. And it does increasingly explain why you appear to know little on the subjects you engage in.

I was asking you for references. I am pleased to see you are finally beginning to this.

[Ladewig]

Lucianarchy-
Uri has simply not been debunked.

I'm unsure what your definition of debunked is, but if it involves photograaphic evidence of Uri cheating, then the June 1974 issue of Popular Photography is a good place to look.

On his website, Uri describes the article as showing that other people achieved a similar effect using trickery. His version of the magazine story leaves out that the magazine published photos of Uri cheating as he made images appear on unexposed film. He was not aware that the editors at the magazine had substituted a fisheye lens on the camera to show exactly what Uri was doing when he was alone and performing his slight of hand.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Ladewig


I'm unsure what your definition of debunked is, but if it involves photograaphic evidence of Uri cheating, then the June 1974 issue of Popular Photography is a good place to look.

On his website, Uri describes the article as showing that other people achieved a similar effect using trickery. His version of the magazine story leaves out that the magazine published photos of Uri cheating as he made images appear on unexposed film. He was not aware that the editors at the magazine had substituted a fisheye lens on the camera to show exactly what Uri was doing when he was alone and performing his slight of hand.

Frankly, given his personality, background and circumstances of his public profile, I'd be surprised to find out that he never cheated. This does not detract from the cases like Margolis, Slaight and many, many others.

Slaight is a magician mentioned alongside Randi in the literature of magic. Blaine, even more so. Margolis brought his own spoon... there are too many credible observations where cheating has been ruled out.

You could, of course, invoke a vast conspiracy of deception. Yet that alone would encompass a huge number of otherwise honest professionals, politicans, intelligence operatives, astronauts, etc,. and would be a phenomenal story in istself.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

You keep ignoring the many, many thousands who saw Niels Krøjgaard perform Uri's trick on TV.



No I don't. Niels has to provide his own spoon for the AB effect. Uri does not need to. See Margolis.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Frankly, given his personality, background and circumstances of his public profile, I'd be surprised to find out that he never cheated. This does not detract from the cases like Margolis, Slaight and many, many others.

So, how would you distinguish the cases of fraud from the cases of real paranormal abilities?

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Slaight is a magician mentioned alongside Randi in the literature of magic. Blaine, even more so. Margolis brought his own spoon... there are too many credible observations where cheating has been ruled out.

Do you think a magician can be fooled?

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
You could, of course, invoke a vast conspiracy of deception. Yet that alone would encompass a huge number of otherwise honest professionals, politicans, intelligence operatives, astronauts, etc,. and would be a phenomenal story in istself.

Not at all. It would only require a few gullible people, as well as deliberate cheating from Geller's part.

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
No I don't. Niels has to provide his own spoon for the AB effect. Uri does not need to. See Margolis.

I am not talking about Margolis. I am talking about Slaight. Where did that spoon come from? Who brought it?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it.
Ha! Not only is Uri a fraud and a liar, he's a thief as well.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Here's the Margolis account:

"[...] 'Would you like me to bend a spoon for you?' he said. We would, we confirmed. 'I'll go and get one,' he said.

At which point David produced one we had selected from home. It was an oversized teaspoon, chosen because it was thicker and heavier than most.

Uri steered us over to a radiator, saying it sometimes worked better if he was touching metal. He put his right hand on the radiator (which meant he couldn't use it to bend the spoon illicitly) and held the spoon half way down its handle between the thumb and forefinger of his left hand.

I was amused to note that nothing happened. Fifteen or 20 seconds passed, the four of us in a huddle. 'Look, it's bending,' Uri said. If it was, my children and I could not see it. 'David, hold out your hand,' Uri said. He placed the spoon flat on David's hand.

I dipped my head to see if there was a slight bend, which I could at least be polite about. Viewed side on, there was a barely perceptible warp of perhaps a few millimetres.

What must have been three seconds passed, but seemed like much longer. Then, like a miniature Loch Ness Monster arching its back upwards, a couple of centimetres south of the spoon's bowl spontaneously rose, until it was bent at a 90-degree angle and standing up from David's hand in an upside-down V. We gasped.

To see a spoon bend in Geller's hand, as everyone has on TV, is one thing. It could be a special spoon of some sort, he could be in collusion with the TV people, anything. But to watch your spoon bending and without Uri touching it at the time was disturbing.

I picked up the spoon to feel if it was warm, or had some caustic chemical on it. There was no chemical. I touched the bend point to my upper lip, a heat-sensitive spot. It was cold."
http://66.221.71.68/margolis.htm Here is the point of deception, Lucianarchy. The spoon originally provided was out of Margolis's sight for a short period of time, on some silly pretext or other. And it simply gets substituted for a similar "trick" spoon.

Misdirection is Geller's favourite pastime...

[Paladin]

http://www.grand-illusions.com/spoon/nitinol.htm

It looks just like an ordinary teaspoon. You hand it to someone to stir their tea or coffee with, they go to stir their drink and get... the shock of their life. The minute the teaspoon enters the boiling liquid, it bends in the middle. The bending isn't gradual, it is almost violent. Nervous people get quite a shock!
. . .

How does it work? Well, part of the handle of the teaspoon is made of the metal alloy Nitinol, sometimes also called 'memory metal' or more properly Shape Memory Alloy (SMA). This memory effect was originally discovered in the 1930s, but Nitinol itself was only discovered in 1962.


Another possible -- even plausible -- explanation.

Yeah, yeah, we know...Uri bent nitinol for Eldon Byrd. After he was allowed to have a cube of a different metal, that is.

[Peter Morris]

Truzzi is dead?

How? When?

Why does his university still have contact details for him?
https://ucinfo.emich.edu/secure/Directory/index.cfm?fuseaction=search_detail&type=FS&ID=25749&CFID=360133&CFTOKEN=66493303

(I was planning to write to him soon, what a shame)

[dharlow]

He passed away a little less than a year ago I believe. He had been ill for sometime, with cancer, though it was not widely reported. I had corresponded with him near the end of his life, and had planned on keeping it up. I was shocked to hear that he passed away. I am in correspondence with a good friend of his, George Hansen, who has been putting together a website in his honor which contains some of his works.

[SteveGrenard]

Marcello Truzzi died rather suddenly around three o'clock, local time, on the afternoon of February 2, 2003, in Michigan. As recently as a week before his death, he was talking with his friend Jerome Clark about his excitement in working on his planned personal autobiography. Truzzi's swift passing, thus, is a surprise to his friends and his family. He had been suffering from colon rectal cancer during the last seven years, but would go in and out of remission. His Michigan friends note that he fought his cancer so diligently that he actually bought about four extra years of life For more, see:

www.lorencoleman.com/marcello_truzzi_obituary.html

The index page of George Hansen's collection of tributes to Truzzi can be found at:

http://tricksterbook.com/truzzi/Tributes/

http://tricksterbook.com/truzzi/ZeteticScholarCartoons.html

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


So, how would you distinguish the cases of fraud from the cases of real paranormal abilities?


On these cases. I use my judgement based on the liklihood of fraud and credibility of the observer


Do you think a magician can be fooled?

Far, far less than most when it comes to the observation of supposed trickery. In this case Allan Slaight is an expert in magic and ranks alongside James Randi in the literature of magic, so the liklihood in this case is significantly low.


I am not talking about Margolis. I am talking about Slaight. Where did that spoon come from? Who brought it?

Slaight says the spoon came from the hotel and he inspected it with his own hands and eyes. He is an expert in spotting trickery.
Margolis supplied his own, distinctive " oversized, [...]chosen because it was thicker and heavier than most" tea spoon.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
On these cases. I use my judgement based on the liklihood of fraud and credibility of the observer

The "likelihood"? How do you determine the statistical data??

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Far, far less than most when it comes to the observation of supposed trickery. In this case Allan Slaight is an expert in magic and ranks alongside James Randi in the literature of magic, so the liklihood in this case is significantly low.

Let's check how many books on magic Slaight and Randi have written.

Slaight: 1 (not available on Amazon, though)
Randi: 4 (at least)

The Magic World of the Amazing Randi
Conjuring
Houdini, His Life and Art
The Magic of Uri Geller

I don't really think we can say that Slaight "ranks alongside" Randi in the literature of magic.

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Slaight says the spoon came from the hotel and he inspected it with his own hands and eyes. He is an expert in spotting trickery.

No, no, you are being very careless now:

"Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it."

So, Slaight never saw the spoon in the hotel. Geller claimed that it was from the hotel. Geller brought it!

Oops. Not good, Lucianarchy.

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Margolis supplied his own, distinctive " oversized, [...]chosen because it was thicker and heavier than most" tea spoon.

Did Geller hold the spoon before it was bended? Was it ever out of sight?

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


I have given it. Slaight is a skeptic and expert in magic. He examined the spoon. It was not a trick spoon.

You're sure going to milk this Ladybrook crud for all it's worth. Very sad indeed.

[thaiboxerken]

Luci's claim of "no one can do exactly what Uri does" begs the question. It assumes that Uri has superpowers and that all other people that can do the trick are simply using magician's tricks. Luci has made his position unfalsifiable with this statement. I will illustrate the absurdity of the position:

I can pull a quarter out of thin air. While magicians use sleight-of-hand to emulate my ability, they are not really materialising quarters out of thin air like I am. I will not allow myself to be tested, so you must believe it.

This is the absurdity of Luci's position.

[thaiboxerken]

I have given it. Slaight is a skeptic and expert in magic. He examined the spoon. It was not a trick spoon.

LOL. Slaight was either tricked himself OR he is a liar. Geller must submit himself to testing, until then, his claim of having superpowers is worthless.

[Lucianarchy]

Professor Victor Weisskopf physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr
worked on the A bomb and over saw the development of European atom
smashers.
"I was shocked and amazed how Mr Uri Geller bent my office key at MIT
while I was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can
not explain this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate
could relate to quantum chromo dynamics".



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ruth Montgomery

"There is no question in my mind that Uri's talents are for real".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ON 19/9/01 I tuned into the Spanish television programme "Tiempo al
Tiempo" and had the marvellous experience of placing a teaspoon on the
television set. Following your instructions the spoon jumped from the
set and remained in the direction of the screen. I was surprised and
after this experience no doubts about your mental powers remained to
me.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have spent my life in neuropsychiatry and have been interested in
strange mental states and odd phenomena for a number of years. I first
met Uri three years ago and was able to watch him bend a spoon on a
colleagues's outstretched hand. I took a spoon from the table. Uri did
not touch it, I put it on my colleagues's hand and asked Uri to bend
it. Uri ran his finger above the spoon and stood back. Nothing
happened. We expressed some dissapointment, still watching the spoon.
He said, Wait and Watch. Slowly, as we watched, with Uri standing well
away, the spoon started to curl in front of us, and within four
minutes the tail of the spoon had risen up like a scorpions sting. I
then took the spoon, the first time I had handled it since I put it
there, and sure enough, it remained a normal spoon with a marked bend.
"

Dr. Peter Fenwick. MB, BChir, DPM, FIRCPsych

Dr. Fenwick is a senior lecturer at the institute of psychiatry,
London, Consultant Neuropsychiatrist at John Radcliffe infirmary in
Oxford, and Honorary consultant in Neurophysiology to Broadmoor
Special Hospital. He has published numerous scientific papers on brain
function and also several papers on meditation and altered states of
consciousness. His most recent book is "The Truth of Light". Dr.
Fenwick is also chairman of ths scientific and Medical network, a
group of doctors and scientists seeking to deepen understanding in
science and medicine by fostering intuitive as well as rational
insights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I was in Scientific laboratories at Stanford Research Institute
investigating a rather amazing individual Uri Geller. Uri's ability to
perform amazing feats of mental wizardry is known the world over. We
in Science are just now catching up and understanding what you can do
with exercise and proper practise. Uri is Not a magician. He is using
capabilities that we all have and can develop with exercise and
practise."
"After the Geller work, I was asked to brief the director of the CIA,
Ambassador George Bush (Later to become President of the United
States), on our activities and the results. In later years during the
Brezhnev period, I met with several Russian scientists who not only
had documented results similar to ours, but were actively using
"psychic" techniques against the U.S. and its allies."
Dr Edgar D. Mitchell S.C.D. (Apollo 14 Astronaut and 6th man to walk
on the moon)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can attest to the same type of incident, but in a different venue. I
was with Uri when he held a session in the US Capitol. With few
exceptions, only Congressional members and their staff were there. Uri
wanted to talk about how the Soviets were exploiting Jews with psychic
ability. This was based on his interviews with many people who had
left the Soviet Union and gone to Israel.

The group asked him to bend something. While he wanted to address the
problem, he did agree and ask for a spoon. One was finally found in a
guard's coffee cup. Uri bent the spoon with minimal contact. He then
laid it down on a chair about three feet in front of me and went back
to talking. As he talked, the spoon continued to bend and fell on the
floor. I still have the spoon.

Col. John Alexander
Former Staff Officer
National Security Agency
and Part of the Army's Intelligence
and Security Command (INSCOM)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Geller has bent my ring in the palm of my hand without ever touching
it. Personally, I have no scientific explanation for the phenomena."
Dr. Wernher von Braun (NASA scientist & father of the Rocket - U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Professor Gerald Schroeder, who earned his doctorate at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T) in two fields, the
planetary sciences and nuclear physics and served as advisor to the
Atomic Energy Commission and to countries such as the People's
Republic of China. He earned his BSc, MSc and PhD all at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Following that he was seven years on the staff of the M.I.T. physics
department, continuing his research at the Weizmann Institute of
Science in Israel and the Volcani Research Institute with labs at the
Hebrew University.

He is the Author of Genesis And The Big Bang (Bantam Doubleday) The
Science of God (Free Press of Simon & Schuster; and Broadway Books of
Bantam Doubleday)

"Uri Geller appears to have concentrated energy. What makes me accept
Geller at face value is that unlike a magician, he does not have a bag
of tricks. He bends spoons. The one he bent with me peering over his
shoulder continued to bend even after he placed it on the ground and
stepped away.

The Talmud claims there are two types of "magic." One is the "catching
of the eye," an optical illusion. The other is the real thing, a
mustering of the forces of nature. With Uri, I opt for the latter,
though he claims he has no idea how these are mustered".



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Geller altered the lattice structure of a metal alloy in a way that
cannot be duplicated. There is no present scientific explanation as to
how he did this." (This is the first research related to
parapsychology conducted at a US Government facility to have been
released for publication by the US Department of Defence).
Eldon Byrd (US Naval Surface Weapons Centre, Maryland - U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We feel that if similar tests are made later, enough instances of
this kind will probably accumulate, so that there will be no room for
reasonable doubt that some new process is involved here, which cannot
be accounted for or explained in terms of the present known laws of
physics. Indeed, we already feel that we have gone some distance
toward this point."
Prof. David Bohm and Prof. John Hasted(Professors of Physics, Birkbeck
College, University of London, England)
David Bohm is the author of Wholeness and the Implicate Order and
worked with Albert Einstein.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In an interesting interview for Free Inquiry magazine, April 2000,
Arthur C. Clarke surprisingly stated that he has his own door key that
was bent by Uri Geller. Furthermore, he indicated that he does not
rule out the possibility of all sorts of remarkable mental powers. He
went on to say that there are even things like telekinesis etc,
summing up by proclaiming that there are many things we do not know
about."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late Anthropologist Margaret Mead suggests Geller may be real
"psychic"
From a filmed interview at the Museum of Natural History

New York, February 18, 1974

"...Then there is another problem, that I think is very important to
realise, and that is that everywhere in the world almost, where one
has sensitives that are put in a public position, that is, they may be
diviners, they may be seers, they may be theatrical performers - but
whenever an individual with particular powers is put into a
conspicuous position, we have a tendency to find trickery also. Now
this does not mean that the sensitive is only a trickster, but it does
mean that sensitives are very doubtful of their own powers, of the
reliability of their own powers.

For instance, Uri Geller will not perform if he feels hostility from
the audience. If he were a performer who was being paid, he might feel
that he needed a few appurtenances (props) to make it work so this
curious association between various forms of magicianship with
sensitive behaviour occurs in many parts of the world. It doesn't mean
that the sensitive does not believe in his powers. It does mean he
doesn't trust them very thoroughly, and he feels that certain
conditions could disrupt them."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The evidence based on metallurgical analysis of fractured surfaces
(produced by Geller) indicates that a paranormal influence must have
been operative in the formation of the fractures."
Dr Wilbur Franklin (Physics Department, Kent State University -
U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have observed certain phenomena with the subjects [including Uri
Geller] for which we have no scientific explanation. "
"As a result of Geller's success in this experimental period, we
consider that he has demonstrated his paranormal, perceptual ability
in a convincing and unambiguous manner." (The results of these
experiments were published in the respected British journal Nature,
Vol. 251, No. 5).
Dr Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ (Stanford Research Institute -
California, U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Laser physicists Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff of Menlo Park's
Stanford Research Institute admit their kind of research invites
chicanery and trickery. They have taken special precautions, they
said, to conduct the Stanford Research experiments under doubly strict
laboratory conditions."
"Under these conditions, they said, no magician has been able to
duplicate through trickery the psychic feat performed by Uri Geller
and others. Some won't even try."
Los Angeles Times, Monday July 28, 1975


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Based on preliminary investigations of Uri Geller, I cannot establish
fraud. The powers of this man are a phenomenon which theoretical
physics cannot yet explain."
Dr Friedbert Karger (Max Planck Institute for Plasma Physics, Munich,
Germany)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Geller asked me to put my hand over a spoon supplied by me, we could
allsee the spoon clearly. Geller then put his own hand over mine and
began concentrating. It was just ashe stopped that we all saw the
handle of the spoon begin to distort."
Dr Edward W Bastin (Holds doctorate degrees in both physics and
mathematics. He won an Isaac Newton studentship to Cambridge
University, and for a time was visiting fellow at Stanford University,
California)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The bends in metal objects (made by Geller) could not have been made
by ordinary manual means."
Dr Albert Ducrocq (Telemetry Laboratory, Foch Hospital Suren, France)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Geller method of breaking is unlike anything described in the
(metallurgical) literature, from fatigue fractures at -195 degrees to
brittle fractures at +600 degrees C. Why is metal bending important?
Simply because we do not understand it."
Prof. John Hasted (Professor of Physics Birkbeck College, University
of London, England)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have failed to conceive of any means of deception in the static PK
tests with Geller, nor have magicians I have consulted."
William E. Cox (Institute of Parapsychology, Durham, North Carolina -
U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Metal objects were bent or divided (by Geller) in circumstances such
as to prove conclusively ... that the phenomena were genuine and
paranormal."
Dr A. R. G. Owen (New Horizons Research Foundation, Toronto, Ontario -
Canada)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There is no logical explanation for what Geller did here. But I don't
think logic is what necessarily makes new inroads in science."
Dr Thomas Coohill (Western Kentucky University, Physics Dept., Bowling
Green, Kentucky - U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Geller Effect is one of those "para" phenomena which changed the
world of physics. What the most outstanding physicists of the last
decades of this century could grasp only as theoretical implication,
Uri brought as fact into everyday life.."
Dr. Walter A. Frank (Bonn University - Germany)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have conducted research on Mr. Uri Geller at Freiburg University's
laboratory. The results substantiated and proved my conviction and
belief in his powers of metal bending. I have written extensively
about his psychokinetic powers in my book Our Sixth Sense 1982 "
Prof. Dr. Hans Bender (Freiburg University - Germany)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I tested Uri Geller myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and
saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by
Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the
experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an
angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific
laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and
found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved
in the bending of the key."
Professor Helmut Hoffmann (Department of Electrical Engineering,
Technical University of Vienna, Austria)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Through intense concentration, Uri was able to bend a 3/8" cold
rolled steel bar under controlled conditions, as he rubbed the top of
it with his forefinger. I was sitting very close to him during this
experiment. On another occasion, a radish seed sprouted and grew 1/2"
as he held it in his hand. I watched this very closely as well. "
Jean Millay PhD. (Saybrook Institute U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Uri Geller is extraordinarily gifted in telepathy."
Professor Erich Mittennecker (Professor of Psychology, University of
Graz, Austria)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Uri Geller was tested in my laboratory at UCLA. During the
experiments in Kirlian photography and after hundreds of trials, he
produced three extraordinary photographs in which flashes of energy
were clearly visible. What wonderfully welcome sights they were! I
have also tested Uri's watch-fixing and metal-bending abilities. He
has demonstrated these to me under controlled scientific conditions,
in a most convincing manner".
Dr. Thelma Moss (Professor of psychology at UCLA and one of the first
U.S. researchers to experiment with Kirlian photography - U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Uri bent a strong heat-treated alloy bar held by myself and my
assistant at each end. There was absolutely no pressure exerted by Uri
while the bar was bending. All the controlled experiments I conducted
with Uri Geller have been described in Sciences et Avenir, No. 345,
pp. 1108-1113."
Professor Charles Crussard (Professor of Metallurgy, School of Mines,
Paris, and Scientific Director of Pecheney, France)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I put the spoon that Uri bent into my pocket and kept checking it
every 3-4 minutes. It gradually bent to about 90 degrees in 15 minutes
while in my own possession with no-one around me. The spoon was later
examined by electron beam scattering. In my opinion, shared by my
physicist colleagues, the phenomenon cannot be induced by our present
laboratory means. It cannot be explained with our present knowledge."
Professor George Egeyly (Physicist, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Central Research Institute for Physics, Budapest - Hungary)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your coming to the University of California, Berkeley and conducting
your demonstrations was instrumental in setting up the conditions for
me to bring together the group of forty physicists to start and
conduct the Fundamental 'Fysiks' Laboratory that met weekly from 1974
to 1979. The purpose of the FFL was to explore the nature of reality
and the use of physical models to explain the space-time attributes of
consciousness and remote connection models of Bell's Theorem. The key
is that psychokinesis and psi in general, related powers of the mind,
can be studied with the scientific method and you have had a key
influence on scientists in their research and knowledge of PK and you
have been instrumental in getting people to explore the power of the
mind. The purpose of life, and scientific exploration is to learn what
is."
Dr Elizabeth A. Rauscher (Theoretical physicist, Lawrence Berkeley
Laboratory, University of California, Berkeley - U.S.A.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Science is at last recognising that quantum mechanics and relativity
do predict some form of information laws, which may go a long way
towards explaining the effects surrounding Uri Geller, one of the most
powerful men alive today."
D. Robertson BSc. (Physicist and metal bending researcher -England)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Professor Victor Weisskopf physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr
worked on the A bomb and over saw the development of European atom
smashers.
"I was shocked and amazed how Mr Uri Geller bent my office key at MIT
while I was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can
not explain this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate
could relate to quantum chromo dynamics".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Uri Geller, as a psychic genius, has been able to demonstrate the
repeatability of controlled scientific psychic experiments. Thereby he
has proved the reality of psychic phenomena (such as telekinesis,
clairvoyance and telepathy)."
Professor P. Plum, MD (Emeritus Professor of Pediatrics, University of
Copenhagen, former chairman of the Danish Medical Research Council -
Denmark)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In our presence and in the presence of numerous eye-witnesses, Uri
Geller demonstrated the following telekinetic effects: he bent at our
request metal keys and teaspoons, the spoons bending to an angle of 90
degrees over a period of five minutes after his influence had been
exerted on them. Before the eyes of those present he germinated a
radish seed to a small sprout in 8 minutes. He reproduced target
pictures exactly to the nearest millimetre (square, triangle with a
dot in the centre, etc.) and also wiped the information from an IBM
cassette. He also correctly described a dome-shaped building that
formerly stood in the Moscow river basin, the destruction of which was
linked to the name of Stalin."
Professor V. G. Lukes (Director of the Ministry of Health Protection
of the Russian Federation, Institute of Traditional Medicine, Moscow -
Russia)
A. A. Karpeyev (Deputy Director)
R. Yu. Volkov (Department Head)
A. P. Dubrov (Chief Scientific Collaborator)

WHAT MAGICIANS SAY ABOUT URI GELLER
"You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many
things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are
illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to
everything."

David Copperfield


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Uri,

May I say what a pleasure it was to meet you last week and how
impressed I was by your exceptional and frankly unexplainable
abilities. I have been a prominent member of the magic circle for many
years and performed as a professional magician and am therefore aware
of most 'illusions' and what I witnessed as you bent the spoon was not
in my opinion an 'illusion' more a phenomenon which I found quite
remarkable. You have my respect and awe for your abilities which I am
sure has its skeptics but I am certainly not one of them.Yours
sincerely,

James Youngson
Papion


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geller is perhaps the world's most successful psychic entertainer but
why?"
by Andy Fisher

Drew McAdam

"I will say only this: I have seen Uri do things that, even as a
mentalist and amateur conjuror of some 30 years, I cannot explain. I
know how mind-magicians obtain the effects they do... I know the
illusionist's mechanics of producing so-called psychic effects that
look incredibly convincing to the layman. However, I can categorically
say that Uri Geller uses none of these methods. Quite simply, the man
is a phenomenon."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:"Geller has shown us that the limits of our understanding are not the
limits of all there is to understand" and "Geller has demonstrated
that the power of belief is greater than the power of skepticism" by
Lee Earle, one of America's leading lights in the mentalism field.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I HAD A MOST amazing experience at a private party in London a few
weeks ago. Uri Geller asked if I had ever seen him bend a spoon and I
said only on television. He picked up a large spoon form the table and
asked me to join him at the bar. He placed the spoon down and began to
stroke it.
A small bend appeared. He held it up for me to see and then placed it
down again.
I looked at it closely and the bend was more pronounced. I was
astonished since this happened without any misdirection. He asked if I
would like the spoon as a souvenir and I said "sure". He took out a
felt tipped pen and signed it. As I walked back to the room I was
really taken by surprise.
The spoon was now bent at a 75-degree angle. When I tried to bend the
spoon, it was too strong for me to move in my bare hands. The bend was
not at the weak spot near the spoon but a few inches up from that
spot. Uri is 54 and looks 35. He is clearly a man apart.."
Barrie Richardson
Barrie Richardson is a professor of management and Dean of The Frost
School of Business at Centenary College, USA. He is also one of the
most prominent magicians in the world - his speciality being Mind
Magic, or Mentalism, in which he excels and is one of the most highly
respected and influential practitioners. His top-selling book Theatre
of the Mind (Hermetic Press, 1999) is crammed with ingenious ideas and
presentations and has become a source of learning for magicians &
mentalists world-wide.

[Vitnir]

I tried to locate several of the people on you list Lucianarchy but either they don't seem to exist on the web apart from on the Uri Geller website where you took it from, they were dead or working on free energy machines themselves. Is any of them alive and able to answer a simple question whether their quote is real or made up?

[Paladin]

Anecdotal evidence is crap. There exists no credible evidence that Uri Geller can deform metal with the power of his mind. There is, however, credible evidence that he can do it with his fingers.

[Darwin'sGoat]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Then, like a miniature Loch Ness Monster arching its back upwards, a couple of centimetres south of the spoon's bowl spontaneously rose, until it was bent at a 90-degree angle and standing up from David's hand in an upside-down V. We gasped.

I like the idea of them comparing the bending spoon to a creature that doesn't exist.

[Vitnir]

I don't believe anecdotal evidence is crap, it can be collected scientifically. If any of these stories can be corraborated by interviewing the persons again, do they still stand by them 20 years later? Do they still think it's impossible they could have been tricked?

This kind of confirmation can lend anecdotal evidence more weight although they might not be enough to convince a sceptic.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Vitnir
I don't believe anecdotal evidence is crap, it can be collected scientifically. If any of these stories can be corraborated by interviewing the persons again, do they still stand by them 20 years later? Do they still think it's impossible they could have been tricked?

This kind of confirmation can lend anecdotal evidence more weight although they might not be enough to convince a sceptic.


What they think they remember 20 years later makes the story -stronger- as evidence?

I have seen audience members relate what happened during magic effects relate what happened after the effect, and a large number of them -- even just a few minutes after the effect -- simply get things wrong. I have had people announce that I 'never went near' objects that I handled, and even handed to them, in fact. The speed at which things happened and the order in which it occurred are often changed materially.

If people are not aware of the techniques involved and do not know specifically what to look for, their accounts of what happened may be interesting, but they are never going to be strong evidence of anything.

Their memories 20 years later (and whether they -think- that they could have been fooled) are even less reliable.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Vitnir
I don't believe anecdotal evidence is crap, it can be collected scientifically. If any of these stories can be corraborated by interviewing the persons again, do they still stand by them 20 years later? Do they still think it's impossible they could have been tricked?

This kind of confirmation can lend anecdotal evidence more weight although they might not be enough to convince a sceptic.

"I am a true skeptic and had also read books and viewed videos on how magicians bend keys.

Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it. It was solid and hard to bend by force. He held it between one finger and thumb by the bowl and g-e-n-t-l-y rubbed it with a finger of his other hand. It began to bend!

Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described before. "- Allan Slaight

"Uri bent a spoon for me. The first time he did it, you know, I thought there must be a trick. The second time, I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person." - David Blaine

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


"I am a true skeptic and had also read books and viewed videos on how magicians bend keys.

Uri got in my car, pulled a spoon from the hotel from his pocket and asked me to examine it. It was solid and hard to bend by force. He held it between one finger and thumb by the bowl and g-e-n-t-l-y rubbed it with a finger of his other hand. It began to bend!

Then he placed it on the dashboard near the windshield and as I watched, the spoon bent by itself until it was at a ninety degree angle. I was later told that this is referred as "after bending" although I had not heard of it or had it described before. "- Allan Slaight

"Uri bent a spoon for me. The first time he did it, you know, I thought there must be a trick. The second time, I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person." - David Blaine

Yes, yes, we've been through this before.

Blaine did not provide the spoon.
Geller provided the spoon.
It is possible for a spoon to bend this way.
I have seen it, both on TV and less than 1 m. away.
The cutlery is sold on the Internet.

Lucianarchy, please explain what happens here:
http://hanklee.org/hankievision/
(Click on "Spoon bend")

Please explain what this is:
http://www.hanklee.net/extras/extra0201/extra0201.html

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Yes, yes, we've been through this before.

Blaine did not provide the spoon.
Geller provided the spoon.
It is possible for a spoon to bend this way.
I have seen it, both on TV and less than 1 m. away.
The cutlery is sold on the Internet.

Lucianarchy, please explain what happens here:
http://hanklee.org/hankievision/
(Click on "Spoon bend")

Please explain what this is:
http://www.hanklee.net/extras/extra0201/extra0201.html

Back of a matchbox type of trick, not the same thing at all. Both Blaine and Slaight are experts in the world of magic, trickery, illusion and deception and are quite capable of detecting such props. Morgolis even brought along his own distinctive spoon.

[Disbeliever]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
LOL. Slaight was either tricked himself OR he is a liar. Geller must submit himself to testing, until then, his claim of having superpowers is worthless.

Thank you. The point is that if Uri makes a supernatural claim, he must prove, scientifically, that it is the real thing. No one's testimonial under non-scientific grounds is valid, and it is not the responsibility of anyone to prove it incorrect. It is his responsibility to prove it is the real thing, and he has not done this, despite all of the secondhand witnesses and vouching for reputations that Luci is supplying.

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
The fact remains, no one can actually do exactly what Uri does.

The fact remains, if you make a supernatural claim, it is your responsibility to prove it right, not everyone else's to prove it wrong.

[SteveGrenard]

Disbeliever wrote:
Thank you. The point is that if Uri makes a supernatural claim, he must prove, scientifically, that it is the real thing. No one's testimonial under non-scientific grounds is valid, and it is not the responsibility of anyone to prove it incorrect. It is his responsibility to prove it is the real thing, and he has not done this, despite all of the secondhand witnesses and vouching for reputations that Luci is supplying.

I agree.

-----------------------------------------------

FRACTURE SURFACE PHYSICS INDICATING TELENEURAL INTERACTION

(The word teleneural stems from the Greek prefix tele, meaning "far" or "distant", and the Greek word neuron which has to do with the nervous system in the broadest sense.)

by Wilbur M. Franklin, Ph.D., Department of Physics, Kent State University, Kent, Ohio.

Wilbur M. Franklin is Chairman of the Department of Physics, Graduate Division, at Kent State University. He holds degrees in biology, metallurgical engineering, and solid state science and technology. His publications include articles on such subjects as diffusion theory, the properties of liquid crystals, and the nature of fractures in metals; and many papers on teleneural physics. His interest in this last area began in 1972, when he first met and worked with Uri Geller. Since then he has initiated a course in teleneural physics at Kent State, the course is funded in part by a grant from the Ford Foundation. Dr. Franklin is a member of the American Physical Society and is listed in American Men of Science.
Many of the metallic objects bent or broken by Uri Geller have been subjected to analysis under the scanning electron microscope - a device of extremely high magnifying power that gives fine resolution of detail. Almost all of the fractures Geller has induced in metals resemble "fatigue fractures" - ruptures that result from excessive wear and tear. This is true even when the metal object Geller has affected was brand new. However, Dr. Franklin has discovered a remarkable exception. A platinum ring spontaneously developed a fissure in its surface in Geller's presence, but without his having touched the ring. Two breaks, only a hundredth of an inch apart, seem to have been produced by two very different conditions. One of the breaks resembles a cleavage that typically occurs at the temperature of liquid nitrogen, -195 degrees C; the other fissure is typical of platinum melting at a temperature of 1773 degrees C. Dr. Franklin concludes that it would be difficult, even under the best laboratory conditions, to produce such totally different fractures at sites so close to one another.

In the first of the two papers printed here, Dr. Franklin gives an easily readable and abbreviated account of Geller's influence on the platinum ring and other metallic objects. His second paper is a rigorous treatment of his analysis of the surfaces fractured by Geller, and it presents a theoretical model to account for the observed events.

(truncated - visit URL for rest of study:

http://www.uri-geller.com/books/geller-papers/g7.htm

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Back of a matchbox type of trick, not the same thing at all. Both Blaine and Slaight are experts in the world of magic, trickery, illusion and deception and are quite capable of detecting such props. Morgolis even brought along his own distinctive spoon.

Not the same thing?? Lucianarchy, we have a trick where a spoon bends without people touching it!! Exactly what Geller claims to be doing, only by paranormal means!

And you said that Geller's spoon bending act could not be replicated. Well, it can. By anyone, for $700.

Are you saying, that it is impossible for Slaight not to have known about this trick?

Can you find a reference, where Slaight specifically states that he knew about this trick? If you cannot (and I am using your own logic here), then you cannot prove that Slaight could not have been fooled.

[Disbeliever]

^ Thank you. This is the reason Lucian has been getting to me, because he always clearly states that no one can prove him/Uri/ anyone doing something supernatural wrong, when it is their responsibility to prove themselves right. This is why Mr. Randi has this website, offering his million dollars. And this is also why vaious deluded people will not accept his offer, because they think the same exact way.

Talk your way out of that, my friend.

EDIT: About Steve's post, to Lucianarchy.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Disbeliever
^ Thank you. This is the reason Lucian has been getting to me, because he always clearly states that no one can prove him/Uri/ anyone doing something supernatural wrong, when it is their responsibility to prove themselves right. This is why Mr. Randi has this website, offering his million dollars. And this is also why vaious deluded people will not accept his offer, because they think the same exact way.

Talk your way out of that, my friend.

EDIT: About Steve's post, to Lucianarchy.

:jaw:

Did you even read it?!

"Dr. Franklin concludes that it would be difficult, even under the best laboratory conditions, to produce such totally different fractures at sites so close to one another."

[Disbeliever]

If the article is in fact truly emulating a scientific procedure (which I seriously doubt) how do you account for the almost inane amount of times Uri has cheated under various "experiments", and the evidence to provide his trickery is succinct?

EDIT: Because of the poster's line over his quote, it appeared to be his signature.

[kookbreaker]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy

"Dr. Franklin concludes that it would be difficult, even under the best laboratory conditions, to produce such totally different fractures at sites so close to one another."

"Professor Wilbur Franklin, a Matallurgist at Kent State University, who had declared strong support of Geller's abilities before meeting me and seeing sevearl demonstrations of psychic tricks - including spoon bending and key-bending- reversed his opinion of the famous "platinum ring fracture" and finally decided that it was, as others had known all along, simply a bad barzing job."

James Randi, The Truth about Uri Geller p. 3

"A hasty electron microscope test proves little. A tragic demonstration of this occurred in 1972, when Will Franklin, a professor at Kent State University, reported that a ring Geller had allegedly bent psychically showed "unusual fracture surfaces" when examined under an electron microscope. These "provided evidence that a paranormal influence function was probably operative." Five years later Franklin publicly confessed he'd misinterpreted the test results; the fracture surfaces on the ring were easily explained. (He persisted in the belief that other items had been bent psychokinetically.)"

Cecil Adams, The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_062.html)

[Disbeliever]

^ And even if that scientific "study" was acceptable (which it so obviously isn't), why then would Uri not accept Randi's challenge?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by kookbreaker
Five years later Franklin publicly confessed he'd misinterpreted the test results; the fracture surfaces on the ring were easily explained.

And yet another paranormal claim goes down the drain....

Lucianarchy, did you know about this?

What do you think about it?

Originally posted by kookbreaker
(He persisted in the belief that other items had been bent psychokinetically.)"

Yeah, well....it is tough to give up your beliefs....

[kookbreaker]

Incidently, the admission came in a letter from Franklin to The Humanist magazine. Sept/Oct, 1977

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by kookbreaker
Incidently, the admission came in a letter from Franklin to The Humanist magazine. Sept/Oct, 1977

More than 26 years ago? I am not surprised to see a retraction this old, yet the claim being recycled more than a quarter of a century later.

Just shows how the mind of believers work.

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

[Disbeliever]

You'd expect as much, since nearly all of said claims posted here by Lucian are being displayed on Geller's website.

And he's not biased at all.... :rolleyes:

[SteveGrenard]

Its a partial retraction about one small part of the experiment. The rest stands.
Its weird why Franklin would publish a correction in a secular humanist publication now aint it? I think some more research is in order.

[Disbeliever]

A small refraction that easily explained the fractures.

I'd say it doesn't stand very well after that.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Its a partial retraction about one small part of the experiment. The rest stands.

Frankling admits that he misinterpresed the test results. How can you possibly call the test results "a small part of the experiment"??

The experiment in itself is evidence of the phenomenon?

It would not be the first time we have seen this.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Its weird why Franklin would publish a correction in a secular humanist publication now aint it? I think some more research is in order.

What do you mean by this? Why do you cast doubt on a publication that does not believe in a divine being?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

What do you mean by this? Why do you cast doubt on a publication that does not believe in a divine being?

You believe publications can believe?? :eek:

[SteveGrenard]

quote:Originally posted by CFLarsen

What do you mean by this? Why do you cast doubt on a publication that does not believe in a divine being?



TaiChi: You believe publications can believe??


Er, yeah, publications do not believe in a divine being. I would agree with that
TC. But I think he was referring to the fact that I said the publication was a secular humanist publication. What I clearly did not say is that secular humanists are ALL atheists. They may be but there is nothing, I am told, in secular humanism that requires followers of the cult of secular humanism to be atheists. Many believe in divine beings or other deities.
What I found weird and still do is that a journal devoted to secular humanist philosophy would be the only place this scientist would decide to publish a correction or re-assesment of a metallurgical procedure.

But what I may not have mentioned, and this has nothing to do with religion, is that the cult of secular humanism is embraced by the leadership of CSICOP such as Paul Kurtz and he goes to great lengths to prosletyize their tenets. But I still do not see their relationship to debunking Uri Geller or re-assesing scientific procedures designed to provide evidence supporting Geller's claims. That's whats weird.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
You believe publications can believe?? :eek:

...that supports a belief...

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Er, yeah, publications do not believe in a divine being. I would agree with that
TC. But I think he was referring to the fact that I said the publication was a secular humanist publication. What I clearly did not say is that secular humanists are ALL atheists. They may be but there is nothing, I am told, in secular humanism that requires followers of the cult of secular humanism to be atheists. Many believe in divine beings or other deities.

What is so "cult"ish about secular humanism?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
What I found weird and still do is that a journal devoted to secular humanist philosophy would be the only place this scientist would decide to publish a correction or re-assesment of a metallurgical procedure.

Surely you are jesting.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
But what I may not have mentioned, and this has nothing to do with religion, is that the cult of secular humanism is embraced by the leadership of CSICOP such as Paul Kurtz and he goes to great lengths to prosletyize their tenets. But I still do not see their relationship to debunking Uri Geller or re-assesing scientific procedures designed to provide evidence supporting Geller's claims. That's whats weird.

What is not weird is your incessant desire to slam those you disagree with. You never waste an opportunity to throw in a demeaning jab at people you hate.