[Closed]Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center

[GregoryUrich]

Well I think that the elemental Al issue is still up for debate - They only say that they picked a region of the sample for the EDS and don't give and exact area nor the corresponding SEM photo. It might sound a bit picky, but i'd like conformation.

Isn't paramagnetism only present in a magnetic field? The material doesn't exhibit magnetic properties outside of the field. I'm just trying to see if it might explain why the elemental aluminium concentrated during the 55 hours in MEK with agitation.

Correct as far as I know. That's the difference between paramagnetic and magnetic materials (Dare I cite Wikipedia?). I think Dr. Greening only brought up magnetism related to why the chips were attracted to a magnet and wasn't thinking of the paramagnetic properties of Al.

[lapman]

dude, this is a science forum. There is no such word as "twoofer" in science. The paper is being supported by other experts, contrary to your false assertions. Show me a qualified scientist who have published an article that tears apart the paper. If you can't that makes you a liar as well.
False.

No qualified scientist would want to waste the $600 fee to get the rebuttal published or even have their name associated with a junk journal. Dr. Greening is a qualified scientist and Dr. Jones refuses to answer his questions or provide him with the data he asks for. Over a year ago, Dr. Greening asked for Jones' full EDS data. IIRC, it was never sent. Why is Jones keeping is data secret? Why is this ok with you? Why doesn't he disclose what paint he used for comparison?

[GregoryUrich]

dude, this is a science forum. There is no such word as "twoofer" in science. The paper is being supported by other experts, contrary to your false assertions. Show me a qualified scientist who have published an article that tears apart the paper. If you can't that makes you a liar as well.

The qualifications in this context are quite low due to all the inconsistancies that can be caught by laymen. Mackey is a published scientist (in real journals) and he has pointed out a number of problems.

I am only simple engineer but I can calculate the effects of the energy output which would require 100 times the thickness of the observed chips to do any damage. This alone is enough to rule out any sinister implications.

If you mean that someone needs to publish to challenge the paper you are simply appealing to authority, which, as we all know does not convince a critical thinker.

[Galileo]

AE911Truth is one of the organizations behind the paper, Galileo. They're listed on the front page.

Famous Authority Figure Endorses Own Paper

So what?

[bill smith]

It looks like Steven Jones made a more powerful impact at BYU than we were led tobelieve.


The nine co-authors are Niels H. Harrit, Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Denmark, Jeffrey Farrer, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Steven E. Jones, S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, Kevin R. Ryan, 9/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN, Frank M. Legge, Logical Systems Consulting, Perth, Western Australia, Daniel Farnsworth, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Gregg Roberts, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Berkeley, CA, James R. Gourley, International Center for 9/11 Studies, Dallas, TX, and Bradley R. Larsen, S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT.

[T.A.M.]

More bad news for the JREFers. Another famous authority figure has endorsed the findings of the International Team of Experts:

Exotic High Tech Explosives Positively Identified in World Trade Center Dust

— Editor

A ground-breaking scientific paper confirmed this week that red-gray flakes found throughout multiple samples of WTC dust are actually unexploded fragments of nanothermite, an exotic high-tech explosive.

The samples were taken from far-separated locations in Manhattan, some as early as 10 minutes after the second tower (WTC 1) collapsed, ruling out any possible contamination from cleanup operations.

Authored by an international team of physicists, chemists, and others, the research paper was titled "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe." It was published in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, Vol. 2., and is available online for free download. The lead author is Niels H. Harrit of the Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen.

READ THE REST, AND FOREVER REST YOUR PEACE!

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/51

Who is the famous authority figure? certainly you don't mean Richard "Cardboard Box WTC" Gage?

TAM:)

[Pardalis]

The truthers have set the bar very high for their paper, maybe a little too high?

"it's a ground-breaking scientific paper"
"It's unrebutted!"
"The days of the debunkers are numbered"
"This is a very important paper!"

Be careful truthers to not over do it. The way you're bragging and making noise about it, Jones and company have to suceed, they can't fail. Something has to happen now.

If they indeed succeeded in publishing a paper in a true peer-review journal, and if they do have something in their paper that is evidence for their cause, then shouldn't we expect that very soon this will make waves in the scientific community, and attract the media's attention? Won't this make as much of an impact as Einstein's papers on special and general relativity?

Let's just wait and see. ;)

[T.A.M.]

I could really care less what they are up to. I want to see the paper scientifically debunked, or not debunked. If it stands unrebutted scientifically, its extremely important work.

Then I assume you will not be one of the many truthers here bragging endlessly about how the "peer reviewed quality" in an "established journal" gives this paper true merit, right?

Good to know.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

I suspect it will remain unrebutted.

lol, don't mistake unrecognized, and unnoticed, for unrebutted.

TAM:)

[Galileo]

The qualifications in this context are quite low due to all the inconsistancies that can be caught by laymen. Mackey is a published scientist (in real journals) and he has pointed out a number of problems.

I am only simple engineer but I can calculate the effects of the energy output which would require 100 times the thickness of the observed chips to do any damage. This alone is enough to rule out any sinister implications.

If you mean that someone needs to publish to challenge the paper you are simply appealing to authority, which, as we all know does not convince a critical thinker.

I have been visiting the JREF forum for three years. The people here do not respond to arguments about evidence. They only respond to arguments based on appeals to authority. That is why I try to confine myself to what is most persuassive here.

Mackey is not a qualified scientist regarding these matters. He has published nothing on the WTC dust. Everything he has posted here was already considered by the science team and the referees. Mackey has not even studied the dust so he simply does not know what he is talking about! Also, Mackey is a rabid debunker. He has reached a conclusion in advance, and then just spins whatever comes his way. I am not into spin, whether it be by Sean Hannity or Mackey.

You are one of the few JREFers here that I pay any attention to, along with Gravy. You are on record saying that the insulation would have protected the WTC for two hours, so the Towers could not have fallen in an hour or an hour and a half.

I ask you to speak up, now that hard evidence of exploisves has been found.

If you have any real questions, I will run them by my friends Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. If you are going to blend into the JREF herd and throw out your brain then so be it, but I have higher expectations of you.

Sincerely,

Galileo

[T.A.M.]

If you have any real questions, I will run them by my friends Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. If you are going to blend into the JREF herd and throw out your brain then so be it, but I have higher expectations of you.

Sincerely,

Galileo

What is it they say about birds of a feather.

lol

TAM:)

[Pardalis]

They only respond to arguments based on appeals to authority.

Hey, Mr. clone of Galileo Galilei, your persona here isn't an appeal to authority?

[MikeW]

Be careful truthers to not over do it. The way you're bragging and making noise about it, Jones and company have to suceed, they can't fail. Something has to happen now.
No, it doesn't. They have the perfect self-reinforcing world view: any apparent success shows they're right, any apparent failure (such as nothing happen as a result of this article) will just be blamed on a conspiracy to cover it up, which they'll say also shows they're right.

[Pardalis]

It looks like Steven Jones made a more powerful impact at BYU than we were led tobelieve.


The nine co-authors are Niels H. Harrit, Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Denmark, Jeffrey Farrer, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Steven E. Jones, S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, Kevin R. Ryan, 9/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN, Frank M. Legge, Logical Systems Consulting, Perth, Western Australia, Daniel Farnsworth, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Gregg Roberts, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Berkeley, CA, James R. Gourley, International Center for 9/11 Studies, Dallas, TX, and Bradley R. Larsen, S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT.

Haven't you been paying attention? All these guys are already truthers. They already have a vested interest for this to be proof of government complicity, not what I would call impartial objective researchers.

[boloboffin]

So what?

That's my point -- so what?

[twinstead]

I am not into spin, whether it be by Sean Hannity or Mackey.



I can't believe you have the balls to actually say this. You are the greatest spinner of them all.

[Pardalis]

No, it doesn't. They have the perfect self-reinforcing world view: any apparent success shows they're right, any apparent failure (such as nothing happen as a result of this article) will just be blamed on a conspiracy to cover it up, which they'll say also shows they're right.

Exactly, they just want to get their foot a little bit in the door, have their paper be published in some ambiguous scientific journal to appear to be legitimate. That's all they want, really. After that they always can come back to this paper and say: see, it's been published in a peer reviewed journal.

[Galileo]

Exactly, they just want to get their foot a little bit in the door, have their paper be published in some ambiguous scientific journal to appear to be legitimate. That's all they want, really. After that they always can come back to this paper and say: see, it's been published in a peer reviewed journal.

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse psuedo-science.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

[Pardalis]

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

If anything, you've only got his genes, not his genius.

What the hell am I doing talking to this guy, he's nuts! :boggled:

[nicepants]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse psuedo-science.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

Then why do you endorse Jones' paper? He doesn't even specify the source of the paint sample used as a control. Do you not believe that is important?

[Galileo]

Haven't you been paying attention? All these guys are already truthers. They already have a vested interest for this to be proof of government complicity, not what I would call impartial objective researchers.

You are not paying attention. The only people who think the WTC fell down from fire are already archie debunkers and defenders of mass murder who hate our freedoms. They have a vested interest in claiming fire took down the WTC and covering up mass murder by the US government.

[roundhead]

Then I assume you will not be one of the many truthers here bragging endlessly about how the "peer reviewed quality" in an "established journal" gives this paper true merit, right?

Good to know.

TAM:)

No..

I figure that if the work is shoddy, it will be scientifically debunked in another peer reviewed paper.If it is , so be it.

Hey, if i watched Magglio Ordonez play all 162 games this year and hit 320, and the NY times says he hit 280, and the Bugtussle tribune says he hit 320, i go with Bugtussle every day of the week.

In other words, its a scientific paper, your relenteless efforts to diminish the medium this paper was put out on means nothing, if its not rebutted somewhere else, scientifically.

[Galileo]

If anything, you've only got his genes, not his genius.

What the hell am I doing talking to this guy, he's nuts! :boggled:

You violate the JREF rules by making personal attacks against members here.

[lapman]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse psuedo-science.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.
We're still waiting for the peer-reviewed paper that shows that thermite was found. Not some made-up "nanothermite" that is based on an exremely biased testing that only resulted in speculation.

[Galileo]

Then why do you endorse Jones' paper? He doesn't even specify the source of the paint sample used as a control. Do you not believe that is important?

Do you think that the paint sample had military grade thermite in it? If so, write up a peer reviewed science paper and get it published.

[Pardalis]

I figure that if the work is shoddy, it will be scientifically debunked in another peer reviewed paper.If it is , so be it.

And if it is accurate and if its data is ideed important, then it has to make an impression on the scientific community and the world.

You understand that?

[bill smith]

Haven't you been paying attention? All these guys are already truthers. They already have a vested interest for this to be proof of government complicity, not what I would call impartial objective researchers.

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ? I think most people would give almost anything for it to really have been Bin Laden and the 19 Muslims. How much easier it would be only to have to worry about an outside enemy.

[Pardalis]

You violate the JREF rules by making personal attacks against members here.

I'm sorry, I've never spoken to clones before. I don't know about clone etiquette.

[Galileo]

We're still waiting for the peer-reviewed paper that shows that thermite was found. Not some made-up "nanothermite" that is based on an exremely biased testing that only resulted in speculation.

The paper has already been published, they found thermite. Sorry, you lose. There were explosives in the WTC.

[leftysergeant]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

There is no way that the substrances typical of expended thermite would NOT be found in a collapsed office building, even one known to have fallen due to an earthquake, so what would you test for by chemical analysis?

Only a physical examination of the thermite-cut metal would reveal anything, and those would have been obvious to any of the fire fighters on the pile.

Get a clue.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

Right now you are endorsing the prejudices of the ignorant.

[nicepants]

Do you think that the paint sample had military grade thermite in it? If so, write up a peer reviewed science paper and get it published.

I never said that...I said that Jones didn't identify the source of the control. Do you believe that the source/composition of his control sample is unimportant or irrelevant?

[RedIbis]

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ? I think most people would give almost anything for it to really have been Bin Laden and the 19 Muslims. How much easier it would be only to have to worry about an outside enemy.

Excellent point and I've tried to make it here many times before.

[gc051360]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse psuedo-science.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

You think they should have looked for thermite specifically? And if they didn't...it's a case of pseudo science?

You want them to write papers on everything that was not present?

[Pardalis]

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ?

The mind of conspiracy theorists and denialists is very complex.

They know they can't change the world, so they rely instead on making people doubt, by fear mongering. They know that's as much they can do, and it's really all they want.

[roundhead]

And if it is accurate and if its data is ideed important, then it has to make an impression on the scientific community and the world.

You understand that?

I think its very hard to argue that if the paper is correct, its mighty important. I think that is very safe to say and 100% true.

As the above is in fact the case, why do you suspect not one network has touched it??

I mean, if this paper turns out to be true, why would that not be huge news at any TV station.

[T.A.M.]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for thermite, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse psuedo-science.

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for pixie dust, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse pseudo-science.

I am the Dragon in the Garage and endorse real science.

TAM;)

[gc051360]

Why would anybody want it to be the government?

Because in that case, at least there is order.

[Galileo]

The mind of conspiracy theorists and denialists is very complex.

They know they can't change the world, so they rely instead on making people doubt, by fear mongering.

Sure it is. The JREFers believe in the gigantic multi-continent cave conspiracy, with boxcutters.

[Galileo]

show me a peer reviewed science paper, where WTC was tested for pixie dust, and none was found.

You don;t have one because you only endorse pseudo-science.

I am the Dragon in the Garage and endorse real science.

TAM;)

For a guy who claims to have an education, that is a pretty pathetic arguments. So far, all scientific tests for thermite in WTC dust have found it.

[T.A.M.]

No..

I figure that if the work is shoddy, it will be scientifically debunked in another peer reviewed paper.If it is , so be it.

Hey, if i watched Magglio Ordonez play all 162 games this year and hit 320, and the NY times says he hit 280, and the Bugtussle tribune says he hit 320, i go with Bugtussle every day of the week.

In other words, its a scientific paper, your relenteless efforts to diminish the medium this paper was put out on means nothing, if its not rebutted somewhere else, scientifically.

No, we are trying to show you that the only "journal" stupid, desperate, and sleazy enough to print the BS that is Jones paper, is the Bentham Journal in question.

If Jones paper had REAL merit, it would have been picked up by DOZENS of NON "PAY TO PLAY" Journals with editorial boards full of true peers, that were NOT obtained through viral marketing to UNQUALIFIED people.

TAM:)

[nicepants]

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ?

Because they dislike authority?
Because they dislike Bush?
Because they dislike the government?
Because it sells more dvds/books/bbq aprons?
Because they want to feel important?

There has to be some reason that truthers reject evidence, logic, and reason in order to cling to their paranoia-based beliefs. Most truthers fall into one or more of the categories above.

[T.A.M.]

You violate the JREF rules by making personal attacks against members here.

No, if he has evidence to prove his comment is correct, it is allowed.

I think the very fact that you think you are the reincarnation of Galilio is evidence enough to prove his description of you is true.

TAM:)

[debunker9145]

It was not published in a established journal. It only had 2 volumes. It was a journal ran by a company out of.....wait for it.....Pakistan.

[Pardalis]

I think its very hard to argue that if the paper is correct, its mighty important. I think that is very safe to say and 100% true.

As the above is in fact the case, why do you suspect not one network has touched it??

I mean, if this paper turns out to be true, why would that not be huge news at any TV station.

So let's see what happens, because something has to, right?

[Galileo]

There is no way that the substrances typical of expended thermite would NOT be found in a collapsed office building, even one known to have fallen due to an earthquake, so what would you test for by chemical analysis?

Only a physical examination of the thermite-cut metal would reveal anything, and those would have been obvious to any of the fire fighters on the pile.

Get a clue.



Right now you are endorsing the prejudices of the ignorant.

Hey smarty pants. What you say was already considered by the distiguished team of international scientists, who specialize in chemistry, physics, and mathematics. The referees already considered this as well.

If you are really looking for the truth PM me and I will have my friend Steven Jones answer your question. If you are just a knee-jerkerer debunking the straw man, with no interest in the truth, then don't bother.

[Pardalis]

Are you friends with the clone of Sarah Bernhardt too? I'd like to meet her.

[gc051360]

Hey smarty pants. What you say was already considered by the distiguished team of international scientists, who specialize in chemistry, physics, and mathematics. The referees already considered this as well.

If you are really looking for the truth PM me and I will have my friend Steven Jones answer your question. If you are just a knee-jerkerer debunking the straw man, with no interest in the truth, then don't bother.

Ok. So it's settled.

What now?

[T.A.M.]

Excellent point and I've tried to make it here many times before.

Bullcrap. Most of the truth movement is full of government/authority hating young men. They WANT IT TO BE THE GOVERNMENT more than anything.

TAM:)

[Galileo]

No, we are trying to show you that the only "journal" stupid, desperate, and sleazy enough to print the BS that is Jones paper, is the Bentham Journal in question.

If Jones paper had REAL merit, it would have been picked up by DOZENS of NON "PAY TO PLAY" Journals with editorial boards full of true peers, that were NOT obtained through viral marketing to UNQUALIFIED people.

TAM:)

you don't think that science papers with controversial political overtones might not get picked up even if they are worthy?

[Sunstealer]

Correct as far as I know. That's the difference between paramagnetic and magnetic materials (Dare I cite Wikipedia?). I think Dr. Greening only brought up magnetism related to why the chips were attracted to a magnet and wasn't thinking of the paramagnetic properties of Al.The problem I have with this elemental Al is if there is sufficient quantity to exhibit paramagnetism and be picked up by a magnet then where the hell is it?

Those SEM photo are going down to 1µm at 50,000x magnification (modern SEMs will do 100,000). This is enough resolution to clearly determine Fe2O3 rhomboidal crystals with the addition of EDS spectrum data. It's also sufficient to clearly determine platelets of a crystalline material that are rich in C, Al, Si and O. Where is the elemental aluminium? It should be there but it's not. They are claiming that these platelets contain elemental Al that is not bonded to anything. How are they determining that? The platelets look like a single structure, why are they not attempting to go to a higher resolution and determine what these platelets are?

There isn't a clear indication of what these platelets are - there is no discussion in the paper on this issue.

They then use MEK and claim that elemental Aluminium particles are released and that they do some EDS analysis on them.

They are not even doing the MEK experiment with any of the chips a-d that they have analysed in the first section but another chip taken from dust sample 2. It has a completely different spectra (for the red layer) than the original four samples!

Why are they using a different chip that hasn't been magnified 50,000x to 1µm? There is no correlation between the chip that went through the MEK test and the chips that had more detailed SEM analysis.

They should do the MEK test with one of the 4 samples a-d, and then do a post MEK SEM analysis to show where this elemental Aluminium could possibly come from.

Why have they done this? Jones even has the cheek to claim that their MEK test was used because it wouldn't attack any aluminosilicates yet the chip they used had never been examined to 1µm to see what sort of particles were present. That is unforgivable.

[Grizzly Bear]

Has Jones worked out that little issue of the quantity of this supposed thermite material required to make good use in an NWO style demolition... Urich seems to have nailed that one... I don't recall seeing it answered by anyone directly involved with the paper.

[T.A.M.]

I think its very hard to argue that if the paper is correct, its mighty important. I think that is very safe to say and 100% true.

As the above is in fact the case, why do you suspect not one network has touched it??

I mean, if this paper turns out to be true, why would that not be huge news at any TV station.

oh it will be. What we are pointing out, is that in truther land it does not matter.

If the paper is not picked up and publicized by the MSM, rather than in a sane fashion, deduce that the paper is a fraud, the truthers will determine that the paper is being supressed by the MSM...you watch and see.

TAM:)

[phunk]

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ? I think most people would give almost anything for it to really have been Bin Laden and the 19 Muslims. How much easier it would be only to have to worry about an outside enemy.

Because some people already hate the government, and something like this would get more people on their side.

[Galileo]

Bullcrap. Most of the truth movement is full of government/authority hating young men. They WANT IT TO BE THE GOVERNMENT more than anything.

TAM:)

The Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution, most who were middle age or old men, wrote the Constitution to protect the people from government.

I suggest you read some James Madison.

[Thunder]

Why on Earth would anybody want it to be the government ? .

because some of them actually hate the United States, and want to see a revolution destroy all that we know and love.

[T.A.M.]

you don't think that science papers with controversial political overtones might not get picked up even if they are worthy?

And there it is, like clock work. See Roundhead.

TAM:)

[debunker9145]

Hey Galileo- has Jones done research to see if there were any natural
"non thermite" source for them being there in the chemical ridden WTC. Like SUlphur=Drywall, Iron=paint and electronics. Fluorine=freon, Magnesiusm and manganese, and also=paint. ALl are ingredients in thermite and yet all would be found in the WTC's construction.

[Thunder]

The Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution, most who were middle age or old men, wrote the Constitution to protect the people from government.

.

sorry to dissapoint you, but the Government IS the people..and the people IS the government.

[phunk]

The referees already considered this as well.


How do you know? Are their comments posted somewhere?

[T.A.M.]

The Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution, most who were middle age or old men, wrote the Constitution to protect the people from government.

I suggest you read some James Madison.

I suggest you see a psychiatrist, but I doubt that will happen.

TAM:)

[Sunstealer]

And the thread rolls on with 75% of it being bickering without any discussion of the actual paper and the data that it contains. Why do we let these threads deteriorate whereby the OP is completely forgotten and anyone who wants to discuss the data has to wade through a mountain of off-topic and pointless posts?

If we want a decent discussion concerning this paper and it's data then it will have to be a new one with heavy moderation to keep those who only want to post dross from doing so. /sigh.

[bill smith]

Hey smarty pants. What you say was already considered by the distiguished team of international scientists, who specialize in chemistry, physics, and mathematics. The referees already considered this as well.

If you are really looking for the truth PM me and I will have my friend Steven Jones answer your question. If you are just a knee-jerkerer debunking the straw man, with no interest in the truth, then don't bother.

I am very curious about the grey material. Do you think it might have formed some kind of capsules for the nanothermite ? Could it be a nano material itself ? It seems to be mgnetic, containing only iron an oxyen according to the Danish scientist which would put you in mind of a red colour like rust rather than a grey.

[T.A.M.]

How do you know? Are their comments posted somewhere?

No I am sure his close friends Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan told him...lol

TAM:)

[Thunder]

'twoofer' is just an unclever name made up by somebody with no wit or imagination to mislabel the true Stalwart 9/11 Truthers. I was relieved that the name was so clueless. With a little application they could have come up with something much better. Too late now though. You are stuck with 'twoofer' which is just fine by us.

whats worse? us calling them "twoofers"..or them calling us "agents", "traitors", "shills", and "Mossad spies"????

[T.A.M.]

And the thread rolls on with 75% of it being bickering without any discussion of the actual paper and the data that it contains. Why do we let these threads deteriorate whereby the OP is completely forgotten and anyone who wants to discuss the data has to wade through a mountain of off-topic and pointless posts?

If we want a decent discussion concerning this paper and it's data then it will have to be a new one with heavy moderation to keep those who only want to post dross from doing so. /sigh.

I apologize, but in this area I am sometimes weak. Report the posts, as I have no problem with mine, and the others like it, being sent to AAH.

TAM:)

[beachnut]

Sure it is. The JREFers believe in the gigantic multi-continent cave conspiracy, with boxcutters.
19 terrorists did 911; Why is the plot too complex for Galileo from the pit of 911Truth ignorance? Why is the plot to kill pilots, fly planes into buildings is too complex for someone who prefers pure moronic lies and delusions on 911?

Explain why Jones ignores and make excuses for other elements not found in thermite in his samples? Explain why the samples do not match the heat release of thermite when he claims they are thermite? Explain why you have nothing to offer save moronic claptrap about being the Galileo who now can’t do science to save his own delusions on 911.

[GregoryUrich]

I have been visiting the JREF forum for three years. The people here do not respond to arguments about evidence. They only respond to arguments based on appeals to authority. That is why I try to confine myself to what is most persuassive here.

Mackey is not a qualified scientist regarding these matters. He has published nothing on the WTC dust. Everything he has posted here was already considered by the science team and the referees. Mackey has not even studied the dust so he simply does not know what he is talking about! Also, Mackey is a rabid debunker. He has reached a conclusion in advance, and then just spins whatever comes his way. I am not into spin, whether it be by Sean Hannity or Mackey.

You are one of the few JREFers here that I pay any attention to, along with Gravy. You are on record saying that the insulation would have protected the WTC for two hours, so the Towers could not have fallen in an hour or an hour and a half.

I ask you to speak up, now that hard evidence of exploisves has been found.

If you have any real questions, I will run them by my friends Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. If you are going to blend into the JREF herd and throw out your brain then so be it, but I have higher expectations of you.

Sincerely,

Galileo

I don't believe I am on record saying "that the insulation would have protected the WTC for two hours, so the Towers could not have fallen in an hour or an hour and a half." I haven't looked at time/temperature issues in detail and am quite rusty on my thermodynamics so I don't feel I could even make an uneducated guess. Please refer me to the source if I am cited somewhere.

I have looked at insulation removal due to airplane impact and do have issues with NIST's work in that area. However, partial removal may in fact be worse, at least in the columns, due to warpage caused by uneven heating which causes eccentricities which contribute to buckling.

If I thought this work was convincing I would support it. My impression of Sunstealer, Mackey and Dr. Greening is that they are good scientists. They are bringing up important issues that should be resolved before getting to far along with acting on any perceived implications.

The simple issue of determining the thickness of a thermite coating required to reduce a columns strength by 1/2 would be a good start. The column would need to be heated to 600 deg C, which by gross estimation would require at least thickness of 15mm or 150 times the thickness of the observed samples. If someone wanted to be sure the columns would fail, they would probably use twice that.

Can these micro thin layers be remnants of that kind of attack? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

And then there is the problem of applying what is now 300 coats if painted on. And if it's not painted on, how do you get hundreds of pounds of the material to adhere to steel? Superglue? Did they find that in their analysis?

Truth first, then justice.

[RedIbis]

Bullcrap. Most of the truth movement is full of government/authority hating young men. They WANT IT TO BE THE GOVERNMENT more than anything.

TAM:)

Keep telling yourself that.

[T.A.M.]

Keep telling yourself that.

final derail...

I don't have to. Surveys have been done, and posted here that prove the average age of the truther is young. Certainly from the exposure I have seen on the internet, they are also mostly male. As for angry, well you can read their comments for yourself.

TAM:)

[Galileo]

sorry to dissapoint you, but the Government IS the people..and the people IS the government.

No it isn't. I don't work for the government, nor am I the government.

[T.A.M.]

Sunstealer:

My suggestion is that you take some brief notes of the posts you feel worthy of your original vision of the thread, and then start a new thread with those posts placed in it (quoted or originals) and then have the mods make the new thread a moderated one right from the get go.

TAM:)

[Galileo]

I don't believe I am on record saying "that the insulation would have protected the WTC for two hours, so the Towers could not have fallen in an hour or an hour and a half." I haven't looked at time/temperature issues in detail and am quite rusty on my thermodynamics so I don't feel I could even make an uneducated guess. Please refer me to the source if I am cited somewhere.

I have looked at insulation removal due to airplane impact and do have issues with NIST's work in that area. However, partial removal may in fact be worse, at least in the columns, due to warpage caused by uneven heating which causes eccentricities which contribute to buckling.

If I thought this work was convincing I would support it. My impression of Sunstealer, Mackey and Dr. Greening is that they are good scientists. They are bringing up important issues that should be resolved before getting to far along with acting on any perceived the implications.

The simple issue of determining the thickness of a thermite coating required to reduce a columns strength by 1/2 would be a good start. The column would need to be heated to 600 deg C, which by gross estimation would require at least thickness of 15mm or 150 times the thickness of the observed samples. If someone wanted to be sure the columns would fail, they would probably use twice that.

Can these micro thin layers be remnants of that kind of attack? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

And then there is the problem of applying what is now 300 coats if painted on. And if it's not painted on, how do you get hundreds of pounds of the material to adhere to steel? Superglue? Did they find that in their analysis?

Truth first, then justice.

Excuse me, you are correct in that you questioned how much insulation was removed from the airplane impact. I apologize for the error.

If the uneven removel of insulation could be worse, why wouldn;t NIST just use that hypothesis, since claiming all of it was removed on 4 ot 8 floors is impossible?

Regarding the nano-thermite, the scientists only found what remained in the dust.

Gordon Ross has shown that explosives were placed on the core columns next to the elevator shafts. This could have been big chunks of thermite, that could have supplimented painted on thermite.

[phunk]

Excuse me, you are correct in that you questioned how much insulation was removed from the airplane impact. I apologize for the error.

If the uneven removel of insulation could be worse, why wouldn;t NIST just use that hypothesis, since claiming all of it was removed on 4 ot 8 floors is impossible?

Regarding the nano-thermite, the scientists only found what remained in the dust.

Gordon Ross has shown that explosives were placed on the core columns next to the elevator shafts. This could have been big chunks of thermite, that could have supplimented painted on thermite.

How do you account for the survivors in the core, or the large amount of the core that was the LAST thing to fall, if explosives were used in the core to cause the collapse?

[Dog Town]

I too would like to know more about said "referees", and what they had to say, to Dr.Jones!

Then I remembered a post (Redibis)on page 2 of this wild fire of a thread.
[REVIEWING AND PROMPTNESS OF PUBLICATION: All manuscripts submitted for publication will be immediately subjected to peer-reviewing, usually in consultation with the members of the Editorial Advisory Board and a number of external referees. Authors may, however, provide in their Covering Letter the contact details (including e-mail addresses) of four potential peer reviewers for their paper. Any peer reviewers suggested should not have recently published with any of the authors of the submitted manuscript and should not be members of the same research institution.All peer-reviewing will be conducted via the Internet to facilitate rapid reviewing of the submitted manuscripts. Every possible effort will be made to assess the manuscripts quickly with the decision being conveyed to the authors in due course.

NVM Red using this to defend Bentham. The bold interests me.
Any chance Dr.Jones knew his"referees"?
The plot thickens...

[Sunstealer]

I am very curious about the grey material. Do you think it might have formed some kind of capsules for the nanothermite ? Could it be a nano material itself ? It seems to be mgnetic, containing only iron an oxyen according to the Danish scientist which would put you in mind of a red colour like rust rather than a grey.Why are you bothering to ask him? He won't know.

The "gray layer" looks more and more likely to be a flake of oxidised A36 steel - they are making excuses for the amount of Carbon present and if it is correct that there is an Mn peak at just under 6KeV in samples a,b and d then that's the clincher right there.

I've also spent considerable time in response to your last post regarding the "gray layer" here http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4598864&postcount=908.

Instead of dreaming about nano this and nano that and coming up with the most ridiculous and laughable theories such as a nano-capsule :eek: you be better off thinking a bit more down to earth and reading some of the comments that actual look to analyse the paper.

I know that a layer of surface rust from a steel beam that's been further oxidised to Fe3O4, flaked away from the parent material (carrying paint with it) isn't mildly glamorous or have the same appeal as nano-capsules, but that's the real world - I suggest you join it sometime. ;)

[Sunstealer]

And then there is the problem of applying what is now 300 coats if painted on. And if it's not painted on, how do you get hundreds of pounds of the material to adhere to steel? Superglue? Did they find that in their analysis?I can picture the poor NWO operative now, paint brush in hand as his supervisor comes over and says "how many layers is that now?". "Err, 10 boss". NWO supervisor says "only another 290 to go then", turning away with a wry smile.

[T.A.M.]

What we need now is Crazy Chainsaw to return and conduct some Spetral Analysis on 010 Tnemec Red Primer, to show us as a comparison...lol

TAM:)

[Galileo]

How do you account for the survivors in the core, or the large amount of the core that was the LAST thing to fall, if explosives were used in the core to cause the collapse?

Are you talking about before or after the towers fell?

[bill smith]

Professor Niels Harrit said the following:-

''The red part of the splinter contain carbon, oxygen, aluminum, silicon and iron, while the gray only contains iron and oxygen. Splinter are magnetic.''
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090406135508204


Does he mean that the grey material contains only iron and oxygen or is composed of only iron and oxygen ?

If it's the last one it is a recipe for rust and if it's the first one then what is the grey material itself ?

[Thunder]

Sure it is. The JREFers believe in the gigantic multi-continent cave conspiracy, with boxcutters.

you, my friend, are a JREFer.

[Thunder]

No it isn't. I don't work for the government, nor am I the government.

you vote...don't you? you elect people in your state legislature? your senator? your congressmen?

you elect your judges and sheriff?

the governmant is not an inherited monarchy. the people put them there. we choose the government, and we are intern ultimately responsible for their decisions.

[phunk]

Are you talking about before or after the towers fell?

I think it should be obvious that I meant after. How did people survive the collapse in the core stairwell if the core was destroyed with explosives? How was the core the last thing to fall if the collapse was triggered by the core being blown up?

[The Platypus]

Gee, why isn't this front page of every newspaper, top story of every news website and tv news program in the world?

Why aren't they preparing the ticker tape parade for these guys that have single handedly saved the world and foiled and exposed the most dastardly evil people in the world?

Why isn't it everywhere by now!!!

Maybe it's because, it quickly becomes obvious that it's the same old regurtitated nonsense from a fringe group of delusional people that have a history of dishonest and unethical tactics and behaviour, and another lack of any real evidence?

Or maybe it's because it's being covered up by the NWO, Illuminati, Bilderberg, Reptilian, Zionists, Freemason, Rockefeller, Satanic, Banker, Jews, Skull & Bones, The Elites with Immortality, Vatican, Trilateral Commision, Council of Foreign Affairs, Wallstreet, Federal Reserve, Professional Wrestlers that all control the world's governments which is all planned when they all get together at Bohmeian Grove to have gay male only sex parties and worship an owl god?

Hmmm, i wonder which one it could be...

[thewholesoul]

Can we please stop turning this into a Pile-on-Red thread? I'm as aggravated as the next guy here that he tends to want to avoid the obvious, but in this case, he's presenting a legitimate point to discuss, and he's doing it politely.

hey good for you El, well said

[KDLarsen]

As a dane i have had the opportunity to read an interview with Niels Harrit, one of the authors to the article.
( http://www.videnskab.dk/content/dk/teknologi/dansk_forsker_eksplosivt_nanomateriale_fundet_i_st ovet_fra_world_trade_center/niels_harrit_videnskabeligt_bevis_for_gammel_viden _om_911
That article/interview is a joke, and even though I consider myself a complete novice on the subject of 9/11 debunking, I posted my reply in the comments (their comment system sucks major noodles).

The very first reply he gives kind of gives away a lot, when he claims that they had no intention of looking specifically for thermite :rolleyes:

[Dog Town]

The very first reply he gives kind of gives away a lot, when he claims that they had no intention of looking specifically for thermite :rolleyes:

Nice catch!
Too bad they weren't looking for paint. They were successful at finding that, at least!

[bill smith]

More press reports.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Scientists_find_active_superthermite_in_WTC_0404.h tml

[Thunder]

"The study, however, shows that the dust was collected from four different sites, three of which were not in the immediate area surrounding the fallen towers. Most of the samples are collections of dust taken from blocks away."

Hmmmmm........planted "evidence"? Tampered with "evidence"? I smell an inside job.

[bill smith]

"The study, however, shows that the dust was collected from four different sites, three of which were not in the immediate area surrounding the fallen towers. Most of the samples are collections of dust taken from blocks away."

Hmmmmm........planted "evidence"? Tampered with "evidence"? I smell an inside job.

I smell a nervous editor. lol

[Pardalis]

Be careful truthers to not over do it. The way you're bragging and making noise about it, Jones and company have to succeed, they can't fail. Something has to happen now.

I guess some people chose not to take my advice.

[GodisEnergy]

bentham is an open peer reviewed paper, which doesnt mean anyone can post a paper. It means its open to the public to view. Otherwise everyone in the world would have to pay 30 dollars to see the truth.
Independent universities laboratories HAD to test the stuff using the same methods to peer review.

[KDLarsen]

ive read some of the lies you spew here like bentham is not a well known peer reviewed journal, im happy to take any of your names so you are liable for slander.
<-

And good, I was running out of legaltainment to read.

Oh, and what is your opinion on the issues raised in the thread so far?

ETA:
bentham is an open peer reviewed paper, which doesnt mean anyone can post a paper.
No, Bentham is the publisher, the actual journal is called The Open Chemical Physics Journa. And in fact, anyone can post a paper, provided they can provide the $600 required for publishing.

[bill smith]

"The study, however, shows that the dust was collected from four different sites, three of which were not in the immediate area surrounding the fallen towers. Most of the samples are collections of dust taken from blocks away."

Hmmmmm........planted "evidence"? Tampered with "evidence"? I smell an inside job.

I'm beginning to think that this might go mainstream. The next few days will tell.

[GodisEnergy]

<-

And good, I was running out of legaltainment to read.

Oh, and what is your opinion on the issues raised in the thread so far?

ETA:

No, Bentham is the publisher, the actual journal is called The Open Chemical Physics Journa. And in fact, anyone can post a paper, provided they can provide the $600 required for publishing.

where does it say that

[KDLarsen]

where does it say that
http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/MSandI.htm
& http://www.bentham.org/open/oaMembership.php

[phunk]

bentham is an open peer reviewed paper, which doesnt mean anyone can post a paper. It means its open to the public to view. Otherwise everyone in the world would have to pay 30 dollars to see the truth.
Independent universities laboratories HAD to test the stuff using the same methods to peer review.

$100 says absolutely none of jones' experiments were repeated by bentham's reviewers.

[Thunder]

i am willing to bet $200 that NO samples will be submitted to an independent lab for independent verification of the thermite's presence.

come on truthers, take me up on my bet.

[Thunder]

I'm beginning to think that this might go mainstream. The next few days will tell.

um.....yeah....right....sure.

not gonna happen buddy. this will end up like ALLLLLL the other 9-11 "smoking guns".

into the trash bin of history and memory.

you guys have lost.

[GodisEnergy]

and where does it say it will be published without going through peer reviewe nowhere. Quote mining typical debunkers

[1337m4n]

Wow, 28 pages already.

Is this thread going to become the new "Realistice"?

[Pardalis]

and where does it say it will be published without going through peer reviewe nowhere. Quote mining typical debunkers

So you were wrong about Bentham being an "open peer review paper"?

[GodisEnergy]

no its open to the public to view.

[Pardalis]

no its open to the public to view.

It's a public peer-review journal? :confused:

BTW, yes you were wrong about Bentham, Larsen just showed you.

[The Platypus]

no its open to the public to view.

Don't worry, nobody at all is noticing your dodging, after you were proven wrong and it is a pay to be published journal...

LMAO...

[GodisEnergy]

proven wrong when you send in a peer review paper.good luck because it wont be peer reviewed.theyll probally still charge you though

[alienentity]

OK truthers, you win. It's a fact that thermite brought down the twin towers, and also building 7 for some reason.
How the nanothermite got into all these dust samples collected 'randomly' is a question not even worth asking I guess. Just lucky?

So where do you go from here? Do you need to demonstrate that this stuff could actually work in a full-scale test? I guess you can apply for a government grant to do that, or maybe BYU will fund it.

Then what? A few years hence, once that's all done, you start going after the perps right? Bring 'em to justice!
Where you gonna start? Interrogate the guys who did the insulation upgrades on the towers, or security guards? If they don't talk, send 'em to a secret CIA prison to waterboard confessions out of 'em?

I don't see where this is all going. I think it's a dead end for you guys. You'll have to show something concrete soon or your cries of wolf will get old FAST.

9/11 was an inside job? Really? You'd better get your asses in gear and prove it. Time waits for no one.

The really hard work still lies ahead of you. I mean that sincerely and honestly.

And a note to Galileo: you wrote 'The only people who think the WTC fell down from fire are already archie debunkers and defenders of mass murder who hate our freedoms. They have a vested interest in claiming fire took down the WTC and covering up mass murder by the US government.'

You really should retract that ghastly attack on other fellow citizens, sir. I don't know if you realize just how ugly you are when you accuse a skeptic of being a defender of mass murder, or a hater of freedoms.
That doesn't belong in a civilized place. If you really are a friend of Mr. Jones and Mr. Ryan, as you claim, I hope they step away from you. Or ask you to offer an apology to this forum.

Is this a scientific inquiry or just another hate-filled witch hunt? I can't tell.

[Sparky]

I'm beginning to think that this might go mainstream. The next few days will tell.

Oh, God, I hope so! Jones and his twoofer sheep will get SHREDDED by the mainstream scientific community and the MSM. Where's the popcorn?

[GodisEnergy]

http://www.bentham.org/open/oaMembership.php

""Membership is exclusively for scientists and researchers who publish in Bentham Open journals""

[AJM8125]

http://www.bentham.org/open/oaMembership.php

""Membership is exclusively for scientists and researchers who publish in Bentham Open journals""

And how do you earn the privilege of membership?:rolleyes:

[GodisEnergy]

Oh, God, I hope so! Jones and his twoofer sheep will get SHREDDED by the mainstream scientific community and the MSM. Where's the popcorn?

this is the mainstream scientific community, now jref is considered psuedoscientists lead by a magician
and thats why our 3 other peer reviewed papers havent been replied to by any peer reviews either.

[Sparky]

this is the mainstream scientific community, now jref is considered psuedoscientists lead by a magician
and thats why our 3 other peer reviewed papers havent been replied to by any peer reviews either.

I don't see any peer-reviews of MAD magazine either. I find its contents to be just as earth-shattering as Bentham.

[GodisEnergy]

when are you going to publish a peer reviewed paper discrediting jones,never you cant your not even a scientist lmao lol lol
how does it feel to be complicit in a coverup of a murder of 3000 people

[beachnut]

this is the mainstream scientific community, now jref is considered psuedoscientists lead by a magician
and thats why our 3 other peer reviewed papers havent been replied to by any peer reviews either.
Why do you make idiotic posts without supporting evidence? The work of Jones is pure nut case delusion and you can’t prove otherwise. Why? The beginning and the end of 911Truth occurred on 911. You are over 7 years late figuring out 911 and you have zero clue that Jones made up the thermite scenario with his friends help explaining the insanity case of thermite in the ceiling tiles. Those who lack knowledge on 911 issues have fallen for Jones’ delusion. You are not alone; you are just another 911 knowledge deficient Kool-aid drinking thermite believer.

You lack supporting evidence that you will never have.

when are you going to publish a peer reviewed paper discrediting jones,never you cant your not even a scientist lmao lol lol
how does it feel to be complicit in a coverup of a murder of 3000 people
How does it feel to be too knowledge deficient and not have a clue on 911; after 7 years? You could have had a PhD by now, but you have dirt dumb delusions paid to be published by frauds. Cool

[dtugg]

when are you going to publish a peer reviewed paper discrediting jones,never you cant your not even a scientist lmao lol lol
how does it feel to be complicit in a coverup of a murder of 3000 people

How does it feel to have the writing ability of a fourth grader?

[Sparky]

when are you going to publish a peer reviewed paper discrediting jones,never you cant your not even a scientist lmao lol lol
how does it feel to be complicit in a coverup of a murder of 3000 people

Haven't lost any sleep over it.

[AJM8125]

this is the mainstream scientific community, now jref is considered psuedoscientists lead by a magician
and thats why our 3 other peer reviewed papers havent been replied to by any peer reviews either.

Stundied.

[GodisEnergy]

beachnut stop making a fool out of yourself ,we have concrete evidence you cant debunk just give up and get over it , i got over the fact our govt murdered 3000 years ago like 3 years ago it was tough.

[AJM8125]

beachnut stop making a fool out of yourself ,we have concrete evidence you cant debunk just give up and get over it , i got over the fact our govt murdered 3000 years ago like 3 years ago it was tough.

You can get over that? I could not. I would be screaming bloody murder. I would not be on an internet board demonstrating that I couldn't get over english class.

[beachnut]

beachnut stop making a fool out of yourself ,we have concrete evidence you cant debunk just give up and get over it , i got over the fact our govt murdered 3000 years ago like 3 years ago it was tough.
Why lie about our government? Can't you find evidence to support your delusional rant about the government? Got some math, physics, or chemistry to back up your failed talk and fraudulent apologies for the terrorists?

Why is calcium in the sample of Jones new load gun? lol

Come on super chemist tell me what the calcium is in the sample? Any clues?

You have pure opinion based on lies, hearsay, and fantasy spews by dolts like Jones. No need to debunk the self-refuting idiots at 911s4tj. Scholars? Not and you have nothing to support them with but your failed posts filled with all your evidence you have on 911.

Any clue why the samples had zinc in them? Bring on your pile of evidence... oops, you have zero evidence? darn

[GodisEnergy]

have to find strength in god

[Thunder]

how does it feel to be complicit in a coverup of a murder of 3000 people

Feels good actually. Feels really really good.

What ya gonna do about it?

[GodisEnergy]

only atheists cant comprehend the evil of evil people

[Pardalis]

have to find strength in god

Yes, you go and do that...

[Senenmut]

this is interesting. i was reading on 911 blogger emails between prof jones and greening. i think prof jones likes the word indeed!! hahaha....anyway, i found this interesting when one talks about these chips. they can be multiple layers.....
im wondering if that pic sunstealer has been posting would be valid with these chips that are 6 layers deep!!!! the born at birth pic with the dark layer on the bottom of the primer. from a controlled demo line of thought, maybe these were premade in sheets and one could just wrap multiple layers of this stuff depending upon the thickness of the steel one wished to attack??

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19761

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."

[The Platypus]

have to find strength in god



LMAO, he didn't just say what i think he did, did he? He's bringing a god into this...

[The Platypus]

only atheists cant comprehend the evil of evil people

And then you seriously wonder why people think your crazy?

WOW... lol

[16.5]

this is interesting. i was reading on 911 blogger emails between prof jones and greening. i think prof jones likes the word indeed!! hahaha....anyway, i found this interesting when one talks about these chips. they can be multiple layers.....
im wondering if that pic sunstealer has been posting would be valid with these chips that are 6 layers deep!!!! the born at birth pic with the dark layer on the bottom of the primer. from a controlled demo line of thought, maybe these were premade in sheets and one could just wrap multiple layers of this stuff depending upon the thickness of the steel one wished to attack??

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19761

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."

Awesome cut and paste. Has he explained why he did not publish the results from the independent tests in 2007?

[AJM8125]

only atheists cant comprehend the evil of evil people

Yes, evil is a christian concept. What does that have to do with the OP?

[GodisEnergy]

because satanists are evil only they could have done it

[George152]

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."

Well if the conspiracy theorists were to get the original building specs for the WTC they would be then able to identify the layers of anti corrosion paints, primers and topcoats that make up these 'paint chips'.
Or would that be to much of a strain for their pendantic natures ?

[beachnut]

this is interesting. i was reading on 911 blogger emails between prof jones and greening. i think prof jones likes the word indeed!! hahaha....anyway, i found this interesting when one talks about these chips. they can be multiple layers.....
im wondering if that pic sunstealer has been posting would be valid with these chips that are 6 layers deep!!!! the born at birth pic with the dark layer on the bottom of the primer. from a controlled demo line of thought, maybe these were premade in sheets and one could just wrap multiple layers of this stuff depending upon the thickness of the steel one wished to attack??

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19761

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."
All this and Jones made this entire scenario (what is his scenario and way, not a single clown in 911Truth can explain the amount of termite used or how it worked) up from scratch; why did he do it? So he could get fired? Why does Jones make up the dumbest ideas and why are there gullible people who believe him?

I remind you that you are chasing a delusion by Jones. Good luck and keep those nut case ideas of Jones coming.
Ask them what calcium was for in the thermite samples?

[GodisEnergy]

yea paint which is two times more explosive than rdx, made from nanoscaled aluminium elemental and iron oxide layers.

[GodisEnergy]

there are even calcium sulphate aluminotheric reactions.

CaSO4 + 2 Al -> Al2O3 + CaO + S

[Senenmut]

Awesome cut and paste. Has he explained why he did not publish the results from the independent tests in 2007?

of coarse i cut and paste the part on 911blogger???? what is your point. why dont u ask prof jones on that webpage about those tests?

what do u think about the multiple layers of gray? would that rule out the born at birth pic since there is only one layer of that black grayish black material on the underside of the primer.

[Thunder]

only atheists cant comprehend the evil of evil people

Ah, so if we had the grace of God upon us, we would be 9-11 Truthers.

Fascinating.

:D

[beachnut]

yea paint which is two times more explosive than rdx, made from nanoscaled aluminium elemental and iron oxide layers.
Did you fail to read the paper? Two sets were less and two sets were more; meaning they are not thermite. How sad. Now you can go back to your evidence free world of super nano thermite minds who make up lies about 911 to fool people with zero knowledge about 911 and science.

What was the Ca for in the sample? Is that in thermite too?

Better check and make sure it was not chocolate chip cookies which are even more energy than RDX and thermite combined.

You guys are so gullible; why? Did you take any science or chemistry? What did dan rather say?

[GodisEnergy]

yes nanothermites are tunable for energy release, so some are faster some are slower, my guess is the lower sets you talk of were used for weakening of steel causing the core to melt ,while the heavier sets were used to pulversise concretes.

calcium sulpate aluminotheric reactions are well known

[Senenmut]

All this and Jones made this entire scenario (what is his scenario and way, not a single clown in 911Truth can explain the amount of termite used or how it worked) up from scratch; why did he do it? So he could get fired? Why does Jones make up the dumbest ideas and why are there gullible people who believe him?

I remind you that you are chasing a delusion by Jones. Good luck and keep those nut case ideas of Jones coming.
Ask them what calcium was for in the thermite samples?



this might give u a rough idea:
from the paper

"1. How Much of the Energetic Red Material Survived
During the WTC Destruction?
In the sample provided by collector J. MacKinlay the
fraction of red/gray chips was roughly estimated. Fifteen
small chips having a total mass of 1.74 mg were extracted
from a 1.6 g sample of dust from which readily identifiable
glass and concrete fragments had been removed by
hand. Thus the fraction of red/gray chips was approximately
0.1% by weight in the separated dust Another sampling
showed 69 small red/gray chips in a 4.9 g sample of separated
dust. Further samples are being analyzed to refine this
estimate. The fall of the WTC Towers produced enormous
clouds of dust whose total mass is difficult to ascertain; but
clearly the total mass of red/gray chips in the WTC dust
must be substantial given the fraction observed in these samplings."


as for the calcium:
"The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings."

[GodisEnergy]

no beachnut being gullible would be beleiving you, rather than a world expert of nanochemistry at the university of denmark i should beleive a random unqualified debunker on the net.

[The Platypus]

because satanists are evil only they could have done it

You sound more and more nuts with every post.

[The Platypus]

no beachnut being gullible would be beleiving you, rather than a world expert of nanochemistry at the university of denmark i should beleive a random unqualified debunker on the net.

Funny coming from a guy that dismisses the vast majority of experts that disagree with 911 conspiracies...

[Thunder]

Ah....believing NIST= gullible.

believing the American Society of Civil Engineers= gullible.

believing Prisonplanet and Steven Jones and David Icke= having an open mind.

Fascinating. Your logic is undeniable.

[GodisEnergy]

Funny coming from a guy that dismisses the vast majority of experts that disagree with 911 conspiracies...

name some then, brent blanchard or leslie robertson :rolleyes:

anyone with a basic understanding of satanism, just go to your local occult bookstore, can easily see the 911 was satanically produced.
9,11,77,93,175 are there favourite numbers, so is sacrifices on pentagrams woops i mean pentagons.

[GodisEnergy]

beleiving nist = gullible for sure.

one of the peer reviewers was a head of physics for american society of physics.

engineers dont know squat about nanochemistry.

[Thunder]

anyone with a basic understanding of satanism, just go to your local occult bookstore, can easily see the 911 was satanically produced.
9,11,77,93,175 are there favourite numbers, so is sacrifices on pentagrams woops i mean pentagons.

Oh.....my....God!!!!!!!!

Is this really what we are up against???

You have got to be kidding me. Why have I been wasting my time all these years?

Got in Himmel!!!!!

[beachnut]

this might give u a rough idea:
from the paper

as for the calcium:
"The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings."
MAY BE? May be contaminated? Why can’t the sample be contaminated with thermite elements instead of the other way around? Oh, that is right the paper conclusion is thermite. They made up their conclusion and eliminated the other elements with excuses. How truthy of the dolts. Are any 911Truth believers capable of thinking for themselves? Do you see any problems with the paper?

Jones made up thermite with no evidence and now used dust that is made up of many other elements besides Al Fe and O to form a delusion. Why does he make up lies? Oh, he can’t understand how gravity works, fire, and terrorists. He is mentally deficient. A very personable fraud, Jones will not be the last personable fake you meet.

How did they wash out the zinc and calcium? Why is calcium in paint or coatings? Did you research this or are you just going along with the idiots on the internet who fall for this tripe without using their own minds?

[J. Edward Tremlett]

I am Galileo and endorse real science.

Dude, seriously, who writes your material - Timecube?

[DavidJames]

I am curious why you guys keep entertaining them, because that's exactly what you are doing. The lurkers will either also be bat **** crazy and agree with them or recognize them for the trolls or loons they are.

The only thing being accomplished here is they are getting exactly what they crave, attention.

[Sparky]

Dude, seriously, who writes your material - Timecube?


ET Corn Gods (http://www.etcorngods.com/).

[J. Edward Tremlett]

There has to be some reason that truthers reject evidence, logic, and reason in order to cling to their paranoia-based beliefs.

What I've found, going toe-to-toe with them over at Op Ed News, is that they have a very deep distrust in the American government as a whole, either because they've had really bad personal experiences and assumed the whole world is out to get them, or they've latched on to the conspiratorial view of history, whereby just about everything done by the governments is the (in)visible hand of one or more shadowy cabals who are out to crush ordinary folks, steal their money, keep them down, and institute evil Nazi mind control to create total subservience.

There's really no reasoning with either view. Of course, it doesn't help that, at times, the American government has provided them with examples of the kind of conspiracies they think they're up against (MK-Ultra, Cointelpro, etc)

[beachnut]

name some then, brent blanchard or leslie robertson :rolleyes:

anyone with a basic understanding of satanism, just go to your local occult bookstore, can easily see the 911 was satanically produced.
9,11,77,93,175 are there favourite numbers, so is sacrifices on pentagrams woops i mean pentagons.
:rolleyes:, and this is your best piece of evidence yet besides those massive clues with Satan’s numbers. We have 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and of course a 0 and a 2 for 2001. We are missing 4, 6 and 8 the nice numbers so you are right.

Number stuff, with only 0-9 to choose from how can you go wrong making up stupid idea about numbers. How anti-intellectual of you; it matches your knowledge of math, physics and chemistry.

This is your entire evidence; some numbers, idiotic Satanism junk and :rolleyes:?

Nothing to add about Robertson, or finding the shift key, or chemistry in the woo paper paid to be published? No supporting evidence?

[The Platypus]

name some then, brent blanchard or leslie robertson :rolleyes:

anyone with a basic understanding of satanism, just go to your local occult bookstore, can easily see the 911 was satanically produced.
9,11,77,93,175 are there favourite numbers, so is sacrifices on pentagrams woops i mean pentagons.

The American Society of Civil Engineers, which has 120,000 members alone.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
National Institute on Standards and Technology, which consulted thousands of experts in varioius fields.
ImplosionWorld: The leading demolition journal in the world.
Perdue University.
Professor Bazant (Northwestern Dept of Civil Engineering) is one of only 14 people to win the Prager Award in engineering.
FEMA along with American Society of Civil Engineers, did an extensive analysis of the WTC collapse.
Popular Mechanics published a huge article citing 300 renowned experts in demolition & engineering.
Columbia University.
The American Society of Civil Engineers & the Structural Engineering Institute also investigated the Pentagon.

and that's a short list...

As for all your satanism stuff, it's only showing how nuts you really are...

[Drudgewire]

name some then, brent blanchard or leslie robertson :rolleyes:

anyone with a basic understanding of satanism, just go to your local occult bookstore, can easily see the 911 was satanically produced.
9,11,77,93,175 are there favourite numbers, so is sacrifices on pentagrams woops i mean pentagons.


In case anyone is wondering how the crap 175 is an evil number, it's because 1+7+5 = 13.

Who uncovered this nugget? Why David Icke of course. I've never in my life seen so much Stundie Material (http://www.scribd.com/doc/903679/David-Icke-Occultic-Numerology) in one article and think I just lost 9+11+13 IQ points reading it. :drool:

[16.5]

of coarse i cut and paste the part on 911blogger???? what is your point. why dont u ask prof jones on that webpage about those tests?

what do u think about the multiple layers of gray? would that rule out the born at birth pic since there is only one layer of that black grayish black material on the underside of the primer.

Oh, I'm sorry, you see I am a No Planer at the Pentagon so I m not allowed to post at 911 Blogger.

But you! You have to be curious, aren't you. Hell, Jonesey has been lurking this thread for five days.

You ask him: what happened to the independent lab tests from 2007?? Heck, I'd think that is something that would make any truther go: Hmmm?

Oh my gosh, hmmm has four letters! 4+3+2 = 9 and 2 ones means 9/11! GIE is right!

[The Platypus]

beleiving nist = gullible for sure.

one of the peer reviewers was a head of physics for american society of physics.

engineers dont know squat about nanochemistry.

I guarantee he hasn't even read the NIST report... most of the cult minions haven't. They only hate it because their leaders tell them too.

Engineers know how building are built and how they will collapse... nanochemists don't know squat about that.

[J. Edward Tremlett]

and that's a short list...

But see, they're in on the con!

If you're respectable, and your opinion and expertise carry weight, you're in the government's pocket.

But if you're a lone loony with a website full of weirdness, you're "alternative media," and therefore more worthy of being listened to.

I'm half tempted to make a webpage proving that Cookie Monster shot JFK, and get a petition going, just so I can outnumber the Patriots for Truth sites.

[The Platypus]

I find it mind boggling that they really seriously wonder why people think they are nuts... WOW

[Thunder]

I guarantee he hasn't even read the NIST report... most of the cult minions haven't. They only hate it because their leaders tell them too.

Engineers know how building are built and how they will collapse... nanochemists don't know squat about that.

my co-worker majored in chemistry. i will ask her about "nano-thermite".

[Senenmut]

MAY BE? May be contaminated? Why can’t the sample be contaminated with thermite elements instead of the other way around? Oh, that is right the paper conclusion is thermite. They made up their conclusion and eliminated the other elements with excuses. How truthy of the dolts. Are any 911Truth believers capable of thinking for themselves? Do you see any problems with the paper?

Jones made up thermite with no evidence and now used dust that is made up of many other elements besides Al Fe and O to form a delusion. Why does he make up lies? Oh, he can’t understand how gravity works, fire, and terrorists. He is mentally deficient. A very personable fraud, Jones will not be the last personable fake you meet.

How did they wash out the zinc and calcium? Why is calcium in paint or coatings? Did you research this or are you just going along with the idiots on the internet who fall for this tripe without using their own minds?


what do u mean how did they was out zinc and calcium? im guessing u are talking about this:
"Prior to soaking the chip in MEK an XEDS spectrum was
acquired from an area of the red-layer surface. The resulting
spectrum, shown in Fig. (14), produced the expected peaks
for Fe, Si, Al, O, and C. Other peaks included calcium, sulfur,
zinc, chromium and potassium. The occurrence of these
elements could be attributed to surface contamination due to
the fact that the analysis was performed on the as-collected
surface of the red layer. The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings."

this is from the nist: is there calcium in there somewhere? i do see zinc.
composition of primer paint

pigment:
iron oxide 35.9%
zinc yellow 20.3%
tnemec pigment 33.7%
(proprietary compostion)
diatomaceous silica 10.1%

vehicle:
soya alkyd resin solids 16.5%
hard resin 2.8%
raw linseed oil 35.1 %
bodied linseed oil 6.4%
suspension agents 2.2%
driers and anti skin 4.8%
thinners 32.3%

source sramek 1967
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCST...3C%20Appxs.pdf

[Senenmut]

beechnut-
i see a few things i would like for the authors to clear up.
1. during the dsc, it looks as though it only went up to 700C. it would be nice if they know exactly how hot this stuff got.
2. i would like to know if aluminum oxide was formed and collect some during or after the material reached 430C and started to react. that would be a big piece of evidence IMO.
3. test the damn primer on the steel from the wtc (primer from the original and the upgraded regions) with the same tests!!!!!!
4. list what kind of paint they did test.


im sure i can come up with some more

[dtugg]

OMG guys. So I was playing with the formula for the thermite reaction.

Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3 + Heat

Lets put the atomic numbers for each atom there and add it all up.

Atomic number for Iron (Fe) = 26
Atomic number for Oxygen (O) = 8
Atomic number for Aluminum (Al) =13

So...
(I only added up the reactants since the number will be the same for the products anyway)

2(26) + 3(8) + 2(13)
=52 + 24 + 26
=102

What is the significance of 102? Well, 102 is the same amount of time, in minutes, between the first plane hitting the North Tower and it collapsing. OMG!!!111!1111111!!!!!! If you think this is a coincidence, you are a sheeple. The NWO did this on purpose. Just to **** with us! It's so obvious, sheeple! Open your eyes!

[AJM8125]

OMG guys. So I was playing with the formula for the thermite reaction.

Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3 + Heat

Lets put the atomic numbers for each atom there and add it all up.

Atomic number for Iron (Fe) = 26
Atomic number for Oxygen (O) = 8
Atomic number for Aluminum (Al) =13

So...
(I only added up the reactants since the number will be the same for the products anyway)

2(26) + 3(8) + 2(13)
=52 + 24 + 26
=102

What is the significance of 102? Well, 102 is the same amount of time, in minutes, between the first plane hitting the North Tower and it collapsing. OMG!!!111!1111111!!!!!! If you think this is a coincidence, you are a sheeple. The NWO did this on purpose. Just to **** with us! It's so obvious, sheeple! Open your eyes!

Minor quibble with your arithmetic; At which point did you divide by eleventy?

[dtugg]

Minor quibble with your arithmetic; A which point did you divide by eleventy?

OMG, you made me realize there is even more to it! 102/eleventy = (approximately) 9. 9 and eleventy is 9/11. Coincidence? I think not, sheeple!111!!!!!!111!11!!!!!!1

[beachnut]

what do u mean how did they was out zinc and calcium? im guessing u are talking about this:
"Prior to soaking the chip in MEK an XEDS spectrum was
acquired from an area of the red-layer surface. The resulting
spectrum, shown in Fig. (14), produced the expected peaks
for Fe, Si, Al, O, and C. Other peaks included calcium, sulfur,
zinc, chromium and potassium. The occurrence of these
elements could be attributed to surface contamination due to
the fact that the analysis was performed on the as-collected
surface of the red layer. The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings."

this is from the nist: is there calcium in there somewhere? i do see zinc.
composition of primer paint

pigment:
iron oxide 35.9%
zinc yellow 20.3%
tnemec pigment 33.7%
(proprietary compostion)
diatomaceous silica 10.1%

vehicle:
soya alkyd resin solids 16.5%
hard resin 2.8%
raw linseed oil 35.1 %
bodied linseed oil 6.4%
suspension agents 2.2%
driers and anti skin 4.8%
thinners 32.3%

source sramek 1967
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCST...3C%20Appxs.pdf
Zinc yellow is ZnCr04 Zinc and chromium.

Do you look up anything besides regurgitating the delusions of Jones? He made this up. There was no thermite planted at the WTC by some 3rd party dolts to bring down the towers. Robertson the chief engineer would love to have some excuse like evildoers Jones and Bush see everywhere plot to take down his towers, but he understands the impacts and fires destroyed the towers and the dolt Jones can't grasp physics or fire to understand reality.

Not to discourage your curiosity but 911Truth is only lies, hearsay, and delusions. There are interesting aspects to study but never has 911Truth or Jones had a rational conclusion to change 19 terrorists and a gravity collapse of the towers.

You should be able to see where the calcium is in coatings. Jones can’t.

The only CT here is Jones and his fringe group making up delusions to fool those who lack knowledge. The chips are most likely products of fire and material in the WTC and have nothing to do with the demise of the WTC but a product of the collapse and fires. There will be no formal papers to rebut the delusions of Jones because everyone have other things to do beside do formal rebuttals to insanity claims by dolts who paid to have implications of lies published.

diatomaceous silica - did you look up this? Do you think calcium can be in this? What about Si?


calcium silicates and aluminates - are in, or can be in tnemec pigment (as are the rest of the elements found; look it up)


I have seen chips like Jones has from products left from fires. Forget about paint, the stuff Jones has are products from the disaster at the WTC and not from idiots planting thermite, painting thermite to blow up the WTC, or planted thermite in the Ceiling tiles. It takes an insane person to ignore logic and imply the lies Jones makes up.

If you check out what Jones says, you find the stink of stupid. Pure delusions since the day he woke up and wrote his first letter/paper on 911 4 years after 911 so he could join the weak-minded who apologize for terrorists. What a great American.

Go talk to Jones, he can be emailed, and or you can go to 911blogger and ask him when he posts to his dumbed-down on 911 audience. Jones is the most personable dolt on 911Truth issues you will find.

[tsig]

Ah, so if we had the grace of God upon us, we would be 9-11 Truthers.

Fascinating.

:D

There but for the grace of god go I.

[1337m4n]

30 pages and no new evidence. Is this a record?

[bill smith]

Professor Niels Harrit said the following:-

''The red part of the splinter contain carbon, oxygen, aluminum, silicon and iron, while the gray only contains iron and oxygen. Splinter are magnetic.''
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090406135508204


Does he mean that the grey material contains only iron and oxygen or is composed of only iron and oxygen ?

If it's the last one it is a recipe for rust and if it's the first one then what is the grey material itself ?

Maybe this is a crazy question but can somebody enlighten me ?

[wowest]

Professor Niels Harrit said the following:-

''The red part of the splinter contain carbon, oxygen, aluminum, silicon and iron, while the gray only contains iron and oxygen. Splinter are magnetic.''

[the JREF software made me delete the URL in order to reply]

Does he mean that the grey material contains only iron and oxygen or is composed of only iron and oxygen ?

If it's the last one it is a recipe for rust and if it's the first one then what is the grey material itself ?

Maybe this is a crazy question but can somebody enlighten me ?

===============================

What does grey mean? I think you can probably call it rust. If you think about it a bit, I think you'll realize that " contains only iron and oxygen" and "is composed of only iron and oxygen" mean exactly the same thing due to the meaning of the word "only."

I've never been that kind of scientist, by any stretch of the definition, but I'm seeing descriptions of two kinds of "rust" out there. Go to ebay (or elsewhere) and look up "thermite," "hematite" and "magnetite." Look at the pictures.

It appears (also from JREF posts) that hematite is Fe2O3, also called "ferric oxide," and is not magnetic. It appears that magnetite is Fe3O4 and is magnetic. Someone pointed out that there is another form of Fe2O3 which is magnetic, due to its structure.

In biology, at one point in time a species of white moths was identified in England. Following a series of mutations and environmental changes, the same species were identified as black moths. Eventually, they renamed them "gray moths," noting that normal variations would cause some of them to appear as black and some as white, and that when industrialization turned previously white tree trunks black, the white moths stood out and were eaten by predators so that only the darker moths survived to have offspring. Well, that's probably off-topic, but I'm just talking about the words "gray" and "black" here. There are different shades of gray.

[GregoryUrich]

Excuse me, you are correct in that you questioned how much insulation was removed from the airplane impact. I apologize for the error.

If the uneven removel of insulation could be worse, why wouldn;t NIST just use that hypothesis, since claiming all of it was removed on 4 ot 8 floors is impossible?

Regarding the nano-thermite, the scientists only found what remained in the dust.

Gordon Ross has shown that explosives were placed on the core columns next to the elevator shafts. This could have been big chunks of thermite, that could have supplimented painted on thermite.

Not to make excuses for NIST, but they certainly had time and budget constraints. They also made other mistakes that worked against their conclusions.

Gordon's theory is pure conjecture and is refuted by the sound recordings (on videos) of the collapses. Any explosive that could sever steel would be heard clearly and blow out windows. Neither was observed. I cover this in my Open Letter to Richard Gage and compare sound levels to actual demolitions...easy to find on google.

[alienentity]

Hi Gregory,

I read your papers btw, good work. I find it perplexing that people don't seem to notice the overwhelming agenda which guides the work of Dr. Jones and his associates, and if they do, that it doesn't bother them.

I would ask truthers to be careful what they wish for, because by setting up the narrative of an evil force at work in your midst, all around you, eventually it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong, the narrative will take over your better judgment.
This has happened before in various societies, which fell into the trap of demonizing identifiable groups and punishing them for perceived sins.

The mere fact that many truthers seem to regard skeptics as part of the 'conspiracy', and supporters of mass murder (as we saw Galileo spewing on about earlier on this forum) points to the direction the 'truth' movement could take if this keeps up.

I really have no idea what Dr. Jones really wants, but I suspect he has become hopelessly obsessed with his quest and has lost all objectivity. Because he is eloquent and intelligent, he could do a lot of damage to his country. I hope that doesn't happen.

Dr. Jones has demonstrated a willingness to exaggerate and mislead, in my view, based on his lectures and various statements he's made. I see no reason to believe he is not continuing this pattern in a realm I just don't understand as well.

Thank you to those scientists out there who are taking the time to digest the info for us laymen.

[alienentity]

I still don't understand how, if this alleged material was applied strategically, not universally within the towers, it would wind up in 100% of the dust samples Jones had.

Doesn't that mean the material HAD to be something very common in the buildings?

It doesn't add up for me.

[KreeL]

...and that is the crux of your problem, alien. You are assuming that the material was not universally applied.

Once you crack the means with which the towers were demolished, the evidence discovered by Jones becomes insurmountable.

Government hacks - like the majority of posters in this thread - simply lack the power to deduce how the towers were demolished.

[bill smith]

If the analysis of the grey mterial and the thermite residue shows that the particles are at the nanometer scale (one billionth of a meter) that is almost as suspicious as the thermite itself. Apparently 100% of the dust samples contain the chips eith this thermite . In 2001 from what I have picked up the technology to produce this size of particle was virtually unknown in the wider world - but maybe not to the military.

[metamars]

this is interesting. i was reading on 911 blogger emails between prof jones and greening. i think prof jones likes the word indeed!! hahaha....anyway, i found this interesting when one talks about these chips. they can be multiple layers.....
im wondering if that pic sunstealer has been posting would be valid with these chips that are 6 layers deep!!!! the born at birth pic with the dark layer on the bottom of the primer. from a controlled demo line of thought, maybe these were premade in sheets and one could just wrap multiple layers of this stuff depending upon the thickness of the steel one wished to attack??

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19761

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."

Well, obviously because some columns had layers of primer, then paint, then primer, then paint, then primer, then paint.

This is known, amongst painting cognoscenti, as the 'club sandwich' style of painting.

[KreeL]

The American Society of Civil Engineers, which has 120,000 members alone.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
National Institute on Standards and Technology, which consulted thousands of experts in varioius fields.
ImplosionWorld: The leading demolition journal in the world.
Perdue University.
Professor Bazant (Northwestern Dept of Civil Engineering) is one of only 14 people to win the Prager Award in engineering.
FEMA along with American Society of Civil Engineers, did an extensive analysis of the WTC collapse.
Popular Mechanics published a huge article citing 300 renowned experts in demolition & engineering.
Columbia University.
The American Society of Civil Engineers & the Structural Engineering Institute also investigated the Pentagon.

and that's a short list...

As for all your satanism stuff, it's only showing how nuts you really are...

Interesting. Yet I wonder how many on your list are on the government payroll in some way, shape, or form? Gee - appears to be all of them. If you can't spell 'Perdue{sic}' then look up their government grants and educate yourself.

[ozeco41]

...and that is the crux of your problem, alien. You are assuming that the material was not universally applied.

Once you crack the means with which the towers were demolished, the evidence discovered by Jones becomes insurmountable.

Government hacks - like the majority of posters in this thread - simply lack the power to deduce how the towers were demolished.

I can agree with that - "...the majority of posters in this thread - simply lack the power to deduce how the towers were demolished..."

No one has the "power to deduce" something that simply and blatantly obviously did not happen.

I can readily work out why the collapse happened as a consequence of aircraft crash damage plus fire effects interacting with a uniquely vulnerable structural design. And that is not too hard for anyone with a modest level of technical aptitude to understand even if they could not work it out themselves.

But I cannot work out how I would demolish the towers to cause them to fail the way they did actually fall as the result of collision damage; fire and a cascading failure.

And, despite the millions of words written and spoken by the leading pro demolition conspirisists NOT ONE OF THEM has suggested a viable scheme of demolition which could cause the actual method of collapse which occurred.

Sure they fool the unqualified lay people with their lies and innuendo BUT never has any "truther" or "pro-demolition" person posted a workable hypothesis that would not fall apart if put to a normally qualified civil/structural engineer like me (I also have help from a bit of Military Demolitions and forensic experience)

So could you tell us what "evidence" by Jones explains how a demolition could occur? And it has to be one which causes/results in the form of collapse which actually happened. Because Jones never has.

If you cannot do it please say and I may give you a few clues.

Cannot be much fairer than that can I?

[KreeL]

You can't think of a way to demolish the towers in a way that would give us the result we witnessed?

Can you believe that if thermate were used it would leave evidence in the dust?

Look at the entire episode of 9/11. You would have to be daft to actually believe that some guys that were working out on a jungle-gym in the desert suddenly became capable of piloting heavy commercial aircraft and defeated the air defenses of the United States.

Every location is fuzzed up. The hole in PA - the impact at the Pentagon - the destruction of the WTC. The government nutters want us to believe that everything was normal. Perhaps Randi can come on here and explain to you how illusions work. In the meantime you can ponder how the Patriot Act was ready to go, and how congress was intimidated by anthrax made in the good ol' USA.

[bill smith]

Well, obviously because some columns had layers of primer, then paint, then primer, then paint, then primer, then paint.

This is known, amongst painting cognoscenti, as the 'club sandwich' style of painting.

If there are very few of those multi-layered chips it could be that they are a series of bi-leyered ones that are stuck together.

I can't imagine an application for a chip with six alternating layers of incediary...non-ondiary...incendiary...non-incendiary and so on. Or IS the grey stuff also eplosive/incendiary ?

[metamars]

If I thought this work was convincing I would support it. My impression of Sunstealer, Mackey and Dr. Greening is that they are good scientists. They are bringing up important issues that should be resolved before getting to far along with acting on any perceived implications.


All the more reason to show the Jones, et. al. paper to additional domain experts. Re Greening's expertise (http://the911forum.freeforums.org/active-thermitic-material-in-wtc-dust-t150-30.html#p2635)

Please note that I worked in an analytical laboratory for 23 years. I used SEM, EDAX, Auger, SIMS, XRD, and optical microscopy on a daily basis. I also used GCMS, FTIR and DSC, etc, etc.



The simple issue of determining the thickness of a thermite coating required to reduce a columns strength by 1/2 would be a good start. The column would need to be heated to 600 deg C, which by gross estimation would require at least thickness of 15mm or 150 times the thickness of the observed samples. If someone wanted to be sure the columns would fail, they would probably use twice that.

Can these micro thin layers be remnants of that kind of attack? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

And then there is the problem of applying what is now 300 coats if painted on.



Nanofoils can have thousands of nanolayers. (At least nowadays.) RNT (http://the911forum.freeforums.org/active-thermitic-material-in-wtc-dust-t150-15.html#p2627), which, I believe, is the first company to create nanofoils, was founded in 2001.


And if it's not painted on, how do you get hundreds of pounds of the material to adhere to steel? Superglue? Did they find that in their analysis?



Wait, it's Superthermite, it's superglue, it's Superman!

But seriously, if you have a naked section of column, you could wrap that puppy with a nanofoil the same way that you can wrap a baked potato - before or after it's baked. OK, I'm not really sure that nanofoils are as flexible as the aluminum foils we have in our kitchens, but it's something to check out. Of course, you also have to check out whether thermitic nanofoils could be created, which are consistent with the red/gray chips' structure. From the descriptions, they seem to be essentially alloys with alternating, simple, elemental layers. (I first heard about such alloys 30 years ago.) The thing that bothers me most about the Jones, et. al. paper is that, on the one hand, I've never heard of elemental Al ( + Si ) in platelet form, while all nanothermite powders that I am aware of have elemental Al in spherical particles. Not saying it can't be done, but how on earth could Jones, et. al, not have anticipated this issue, and at least noted that they hadn't resolved it, yet? I'm not a material scientist, but my money is on material scientists demanding more proof that elemental-Al/Si platelets can even exist.

As nanofoils can be used as both soldering agents and ignition devices, I wonder if hybrids could be constructed that are used to solder nanofoil-demolition layers to steel beams via intervening nanofoil-solder layers? One can imagine strips of the stuff, where the layer used for soldering extends beyond the demolition layers. (Allowing you to expose electrodes.) Or maybe just one end longer, since some nanofoils can be ignited via laser (mostly mentioned for the benefit of Max Photon fans :) )

[bill smith]

The grey chips contain only iron and oxygen- two of the major ingredients of thermite. Could the grey stuff have been there to provide extra oxygen and iron for the reaction which I believe is much more energetic with nano-thermite ?

[metamars]

If there are very few of those multi-layered chips it could be that they are a series of bi-leyered ones that are stuck together.

I can't imagine an application for a chip with six alternating layers of incediary...non-ondiary...incendiary...non-incendiary and so on. Or IS the grey stuff also eplosive/incendiary ?

Jones, et. al., suggest that only the red layer is thermitic, but it sure looks to me like the grey layer gets consumed much more than the red layer. (Judging by their photo of a chip after they ignited it.) Perhaps the grey layer is used to conduct the melt process laterally faster than the red layer, alone, can achieve. In so doing, it would react with some of the Al in the red layer, but spare most of it for reacting with the iron oxide which is also within the red layer.

[bill smith]

Are nano-materials relatively heavier than their standard counterparts ? If the particles are ground so fine that they can enter even mcro-structures such as the human cell you could get an awful lot of them in a cubic inch.

[T.A.M.]

Boy this thread has brought out all the little truther children. Like I said before, it is not surprising. I mean this feeble bit of pseudoscience Jones has produced is the only distant point of light the truthers have had since 2006.

When it falls flat on its face (AND I GUARANTEE it will), will you all scury back under your rocks as quickly?

TAM:)

[KreeL]

I'm just wondering what you are going to do after your shill job is over.

[dtugg]

I'm just wondering what you are going to do after your shill job is over.

There is going to be another false flag attack. The NWO will pay us to shill their story for that one too.

[metamars]

The thing that bothers me most about the Jones, et. al. paper is that, on the one hand, I've never heard of elemental Al ( + Si ) in platelet form, while all nanothermite powders that I am aware of have elemental Al in spherical particles.

I should have said "all aluminothermic nanothermite powders that I am aware of have elemental Al in spherical particles"

[Senenmut]

Well, obviously because some columns had layers of primer, then paint, then primer, then paint, then primer, then paint.

This is known, amongst painting cognoscenti, as the 'club sandwich' style of painting.

from what sunstealer says about the gray layer:
"The "gray layer" looks more and more likely to be a flake of oxidised A36 steel - they are making excuses for the amount of Carbon present and if it is correct that there is an Mn peak at just under 6KeV in samples a,b and d then that's the clincher right there."

so if there are layers and layers of oxidised A36 steel then i can see the what u are saying but i highly doubt that.

so since some chips are multiple layered (6 layers), could that rule out oxidised A36 steel between each layer? and would the picture sunstealer posts "seperated at birth be void when speaking of these multiple layered chips?

[KreeL]

There is going to be another false flag attack. The NWO will pay us to shill their story for that one too.

Don't worry, dtugg. Purdue {spelled correctly} will have an animation ready to go in a couple weeks showing guys jumping off a jungle-gym in the desert, donning laboratory coats, and whipping up vats of this stuff in their top-secret Bora Bora facilities.:D

[leftysergeant]

I'm just wondering what you are going to do after your shill job is over.

You show a remarkable lack of understanding of what is occurring here.

We have been presented with a paper written by a gang of half-baked failed scientists, all operating either outside their areas of expertise or on inadequate information. I have not even been able to determine whether some of them are even actual scientists. Two of them strike me as odd because one might actually by an opthamologist, and another a lawyer.

As a fire fighter, I would invite both of them to go paly on the freeway while the adults with some idea of how these things work discuss the holes the size of grey whales through Jonesie's paper.

Now, unless you can give us some indication that you have some particular knowledge of what a crash scene should look like, or what the damage done by thermite would look like, you will just have to excuse my dismissing your snide comments as more obfuscation.

Your debating style is too reminiscent of what we have to put up with from the WACoffs.

[twinstead]

Shill? Jesus that's boring. That's just code word for "somebody who disagrees with me whom I have no response to". I personally liked being called a "Bush lover". Good times.

Double entendres ROCK!

[Drudgewire]

Shill? Jesus that's boring. That's just code word for "somebody who disagrees with me whom I have no response to". I personally liked being called a "Bush lover". Good times.

Double entendres ROCK!


I'm partial to "duh-bunker" myself. Must admit it made me giggle the first time I saw it. :)

[bill smith]

Physical Structure of the Chips:-

Chips having distinctive and similar physical features were found in all four of the dust samples, ranging in length from from about 0.2 to 3 mm. Each chip has stratified layers of two types: a red layer and a lighter gray layer, where each layer is between roughly 10 and 100 microns in thickness. Despite their small size, the chips are readily visible in the samples because of their flat shapes, distinctive color, and layered structure. The chips are tough despite being as thin as eggshells.

Magnification reveals that the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material, whereas the red layers have small particles embedded in a matrix of slightly translucent material.

At magnification of 50,000 the structure of the two types of particles is clear: small bright particles having a faceted shape and measuring about 100 nm in diameter, and larger particles having a flat and often hexagonal shape and measuring about 1000 nm across and 40 nm thick.

The particles are held in place and in close proximity to each other by the porous matrix. Soaking the chips in methyl ethyl ketone, a solvent that dissolves paint, caused the red layer to swell while remaining intact.

Up to this point, I have reviewed only characteristics of the chips revealed by macro- and micro-scopic visual examination, but already the implications are stunning: the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogenous material. The student of energetic materials will appreciate that this description matches exactly that of a super-thermite in which the reactant particles are suspended in a sol-gel matrix applied to a substrate.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html#chip_structure

[Wolrab]

Now that all the truthers are in this thread, can we lock it and keep them here?

[A W Smith]

regardless of how many layers of Jonesies nanunanuthermite were allegedly painted onto the steel back in 1970. **cough*before this compound ever existed***cough*** Jonesie still has failed to demonstrate this alleged destructive effect on steel. Even with a small piece of discarded steel bed frame angle you can pick up off the curb on any garbage day. And Jonesie still has to show us how the alleged perpetrators prevented this compound from simply sloughing off the vertical members when this alleged reaction took place. The more layers you have. the further it gets from the steel. two layers twice removed, three layers thrice, and so on. Like motorists at a toll plaza, You cant throw your quarter into the basket at the toll booth when your the tenth car in line. Your not reaching the basket. This "paper" fails on its face simply because its implausible. You cant get this imaginary device to its target. And there simply aint enough of it. Its like expecting the steel wire of fourth of july sparkler to fold over during its reaction. to use a truther argument, Its never happened. Not in the history of ever.

[GlennB]

".... already the implications are stunning: the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogenous material. The student of energetic materials will appreciate that this description matches exactly that of a super-thermite in which the reactant particles are suspended in a sol-gel matrix applied to a substrate."


Reminds me of "buzz-word bingo", once a great source of amusement during dull meetings in my days in the I.T. industry :)

sol-gel matrix ... check
substrate ... check
laminated ... check
nano-engineered ... check

Ah, the fun we have .

[A W Smith]

Reminds me of "buzz-word bingo", once a great source of amusement during dull meetings in my days in the I.T. industry :)

sol-gel matrix ... check
substrate ... check
laminated ... check
nano-engineered ... check

Ah, the fun we have .


Oh please dont leave out my new favorite
"nanofoil"
:dl:

[BenBurch]

Interesting. Yet I wonder how many on your list are on the government payroll in some way, shape, or form? Gee - appears to be all of them. If you can't spell 'Perdue{sic}' then look up their government grants and educate yourself.

You do realize that you are in a board entirely of paid government shills, right?

Hell, if you think Blackwater ripped off Uncle Sugar you should see the JREF Payroll! Woo!

We all drive classic European roadsters and live in mansions that HAVEN'T lost their value because we paid for them in good, solid AMEROS.

And wow do we get the chicks, man! Of course the Mata Hari training academy has to send their students out for internships, and, well, we reluctantly take them on - for the CAUSE, you know.

And speaking of being government shills here, why do YOU feel so safe coming in here? You know we have control of at least 5 cameras in your home right? I bet you thought that cell phone never sent pictures unless you asked it to, right? LOL!

But you know, you are safe for now; We always play a fish for a while before reeling him in - seems only sporting.

:sarcasm:

[T.A.M.]

I'm just wondering what you are going to do after your shill job is over.

It isn't a "job" when you don't get paid for it...

What are you going to do when your paranoid delusions of percecution are over?

TAM;)

[lapman]

You do realize that you are in a board entirely of paid government shills, right?

Hell, if you think Blackwater ripped off Uncle Sugar you should see the JREF Payroll! Woo!

We all drive classic European roadsters and live in mansions that HAVEN'T lost their value because we paid for them in good, solid AMEROS.

And wow do we get the chicks, man! Of course the Mata Hari training academy has to send their students out for internships, and, well, we reluctantly take them on - for the CAUSE, you know.

And speaking of being government shills here, why do YOU feel so safe coming in here? You know we have control of at least 5 cameras in your home right? I bet you thought that cell phone never sent pictures unless you asked it to, right? LOL!

But you know, you are safe for now; We always play a fish for a while before reeling him in - seems only sporting.

:sarcasm:
You got a car AND a mansion!?!?!?!? Oh, my handler's going to hear about this one! All I got was a Yugo and a hotel room. Sheeze.

[T.A.M.]

You do realize that you are in a board entirely of paid government shills, right?

Hell, if you think Blackwater ripped off Uncle Sugar you should see the JREF Payroll! Woo!

We all drive classic European roadsters and live in mansions that HAVEN'T lost their value because we paid for them in good, solid AMEROS.

And wow do we get the chicks, man! Of course the Mata Hari training academy has to send their students out for internships, and, well, we reluctantly take them on - for the CAUSE, you know.

And speaking of being government shills here, why do YOU feel so safe coming in here? You know we have control of at least 5 cameras in your home right? I bet you thought that cell phone never sent pictures unless you asked it to, right? LOL!

But you know, you are safe for now; We always play a fish for a while before reeling him in - seems only sporting.

:sarcasm:

Hey, what is with the sarcasm smilie? He might think you are joking!

TAM;)

[twinstead]

You got a car AND a mansion!?!?!?!? Oh, my handler's going to hear about this one! All I got was a Yugo and a hotel room. Sheeze.

Wow. I have underwear bigger than a Yugo.

[The Platypus]

Interesting. Yet I wonder how many on your list are on the government payroll in some way, shape, or form? Gee - appears to be all of them. If you can't spell 'Perdue{sic}' then look up their government grants and educate yourself.

According to your cult, everyone, no matter who is it, that doesn't play along with your cult, is on the gov't payroll. All the vicitims, every expert that disagrees, every person on the internet that disagrees, even me. We are all accused constantly of being paid off by the gov't.

Paranoid delusions and ridiculous nonsense like that don't cut it and only proves that your cult is full it.

[GlennB]

You got a car AND a mansion!?!?!?!? Oh, my handler's going to hear about this one! All I got was a Yugo and a hotel room. Sheeze.

When I retired my deepest regret was losing the Black Helicopter.

[bill smith]

************************************************** *********************
''...The chips are tough despite being as thin as eggshells.''
'' Magnification reveals that the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''

'' the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogenous material.''

'' The particles are held in place and in close proximity to each other by the porous matrix.''
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html#chip_structure.
************************************************** ******

the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''--Hoffman
'' while the gray only contains iron and oxygen--Danish Professor ''

Surely he iron would have oxidised over the last seven years ? Rusted away even. There has to be more to this ?

[metamars]

Oh please dont leave out my new favorite
"nanofoil"
:dl:

I've got another buzzword for your list: structural nanofoils, p. 6, here (http://www.rntfoil.com/technology/documents/MicroNano-Heian4_07.pdf).


Structural energetics. Formed in thick
sheets and rods, this material can bear loads
and act as structural members. The material
can be designed to ignite on impact or ignite
with high heat for use in applications that
include missile skins and frames, shell casings,
and shape-charge liners.
(emphasis mine)

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact, giving a spectacular fireball. In this case, there'd be no need to mess with the buildings at all.

[Pardalis]

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact

Why on earth would they do that?

[Sunstealer]

i found this interesting when one talks about these chips. they can be multiple layers.....
im wondering if that pic sunstealer has been posting would be valid with these chips that are 6 layers deep!!!!Firstly let me say that I appreciate the questions and you asking them. The real loonytunes have turned up spouting nonsense and debasing the thread so I'm now only going to read and reply to anything sensible and I'll look to correlate some of the data in the paper using my posts on this thread.

Are you talking about Fig 31 on page 28 with regard to the 6 layers. (It would help if you could be more specific and lay your posts out a bit better so I can answer quicker - thanks).

People have to realise that there are a number of different chips in Jones' paper, that they are not all the same, nor did they have the same testing performed on them.

Samples and the tests performed.

a-d - Photo - EDS red - EDS gray - 1µm SEM analysis of red layer - BSE (one chip) - DSC
Unknown paint - MEK
Chip from sample 2 - Photo - EDS red - MEK - BSE
Chip Fig 31 - Photo - SEM photo - EDS gray layer (showing no Fe only C and O)

When you look at the data and compare the chips it's fair to say that samples a-d (c has a slightly different EDS red layer spectrum) are identical.

Chip from sample 2, we have no idea about because no detailed SEM work was performed and the EDS spectrum of the red layer (Fig 14) is completely different to samples a-d (Fig 7). They sidestep the issue by claiming S and Ca might be drywall contamination but don't show this. Therefore Sample 2 cannot be considered to be part of the same group as samples a-d.

Fig 31 chip. Again this is clearly different from the other samples - the optical photographs show this.

An example is shown in Fig. (31) which shows significant Pb along with C, O, Fe, and Al and displays multiple red and gray layers.No other sample in the paper is showing significant Pb (Lead) in the red layer yet this chip was not considered for any testing in the DSC or with MEK.

Look at Fig 33 - EDS of the "gray layer" of chip in Fig 31. Now compare that with Fig 6 spectra. Notice the massive difference? The "gray layer" shows no Fe and a substantially higher C peak. This means that the "gray layer" in this chip is not an iron oxide.

So we have two clear distinctions between samples a-d and chip in Fig 31 - Significant Pb in the red layer, significant C in the "gray layer" but without Fe

Therefore this chip cannot be classified as being part of the samples a-d. Subsequently it cannot be claimed to be thermite.

And that neatly answers your question with regard to the "at birth photo". That photo is exactly what it is - a direct comparison between NIST experiment and the 4 chip samples a-d in Jones' paper. Nothing else, it does not compare to anything else. The chip in Fig 31 with the multiple layers does not compare to anything else. This fact should set alarm bells ringing because the two cannot both be thermite yet Jones is claiming they are.

So why do we have these discrepancies?

Well when we look at the source of the samples and then how these chips where separated then it's not hard to see that not all of the particles/chips come from the same source, namely the WTC columns.

This is blindingly obvious to anyone who has more than 2 minutes to think about it. How many sources of paint or other material are there in this New York area? Dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions? Could some samples not be from the WTC but for example the Brooklyn bridge or other skyscrapers? Only if you start off with the premise that all of the chips in Jones' paper are thermite will you have a problem with realising that there are significant discrepancies between chips in the paper therefore one of them cannot be what Jones claims.

What Jones et al should have done before they even started any experiment was to characterize the chips they have from each of the different dust samples - give each one a label and then group them by visual characteristic. This would also help to determine exactly which chips should go for further testing. Instead it looks like they have picked identical chips for SEM/EDS/DSC. I would have wanted that chip with the multiple layers as part of the samples a-d without a shadow of a doubt because it's different.


from a controlled demo line of thought, maybe these were premade in sheets and one could just wrap multiple layers of this stuff depending upon the thickness of the steel one wished to attack??I'll give you the courtesy you deserver and not be rude even though I find the idea, well lets say strange. The gray layer in the red chips is brittle in nature - you can tell this by looking at Fig4 and Fig 5 b) and d). It's not going to transport well and certainly would not be able to be rolled up without cracking all of it into tiny pieces. At 20µm thick they are going to be incredibly fragile and prone to damage - infact they'll just fall apart. Which rules it out completely.

Have a think about the logistics of using that method - how big are the sheets? How do you transport them? They are around 20µm thick so how are they going to support their own weight and not get damaged in the handling process? How do you attach them to columns? etc, etc.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19761

"Indeed, not all the chips are bi-layered as we noted in the paper!
See Fig. 31 for an example. Note that there is gray material on both
sides of the red material in the upper right area; I count six
distinct layers in this chip. Dr. Basile has independently noted such
chips also, with multiple layers of red and gray. Why do such
multi-layered chips appear? There seems to be an important clue here,
worth exploring IMO."Answered above. Yes it's an important clue and there is a precise, easily understood, down to earth explanation.

These multi-layered chips are not the same as samples a-d, therefore not thermite, they come from who knows where and are more likely to be paint on a sealant or epoxy that anything else. Do you scrape of all the paint to bear metal or wall everytime you paint something? No? Well how many layers do you think will build up over the years?

It's not hard to work out now is it?

[dtugg]

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact, giving a spectacular fireball. In this case, there'd be no need to mess with the buildings at all.

So UA and AA are in on it? They would have to be for your little fantasy to work.

[Pardalis]

The conspiracy keeps on getting bigger and bigger everyday.

[phunk]

If a thermite coating was all over the columns, and could be ignited by the heat of the plane crash, wouldn't all of the little chips knocked loose in the impact and ignited by the fireball be easily visible? Thermite burns very bright white, the impact would have looked like a starburst firework (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2241/1874964319_69e5271220_o.jpg).

[A W Smith]

I've got another buzzword for your list: structural nanofoils, p. 6, here (http://www.rntfoil.com/technology/documents/MicroNano-Heian4_07.pdf).



(emphasis mine)

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact, giving a spectacular fireball. In this case, there'd be no need to mess with the buildings at all.


Go ahead boy genius, lets see you weld it into tanks/tubes/structural shapes

:dl:
Still waiting for a steel destruction demonstration.

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils,No sorry. we cant imagine, we are not psyco/delusional. Your conspiracy grows by leaps and bounds. I can imagine thick nanofoil hats for moron truthers.


The Inflationary Model of Conspiracy Theories

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2320446#post2320446

part two

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2323813#post2323813

[Sunstealer]

Professor Niels Harrit said the following:-

''The red part of the splinter contain carbon, oxygen, aluminum, silicon and iron, while the gray only contains iron and oxygen. Splinter are magnetic.''
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090406135508204


Does he mean that the grey material contains only iron and oxygen or is composed of only iron and oxygen ?

If it's the last one it is a recipe for rust and if it's the first one then what is the grey material itself ?

Maybe this is a crazy question but can somebody enlighten me ?No the sample doesn't just contain Fe and O - look at Fig 6 and tell me what the peak with the C is?

Page 12 states

The four spectra in Fig.(6) indicate that the gray layers are consistently characterized by high iron and oxygen content including a smaller amount of carbon.

Why do you consistently fail to read this paper? What is it about the majority of truthers and their inability to read. Harrit is incorrect - his own bloody data and text in his own report that he co-wrote shows him to be incorrect - stop quoting people who can't read their own paper and quote from the report or comment on Fig 6. I'm almost of the opinion that the SEM and EDS data for samples a-d, along with some of the language was actually written by a materials engineer/metallurgist/SEM operator and then Jones et al changed some of it and added their own comments such as "intimate mixing" which no-one with a clue would ever use.

I can't find the specific reference as to why they dismiss the Carbon peak. But Fe and C is likely to be steel. Add in the O and it looks like oxidised steel. There is the possibility on an Mn peak at 5.9KeV on smaples a), b) and d) in fig 6. That would indicate steel without any doubt.

What are the alloying elements of A36 steel?

by wt% 0.29C max, 0.80–1.2Mn, 0.04P, 0.05S, 0.15–0.3Si, bal Fe. (P and S are always quoted because they are considered impurities and are detrimental to the properties of steel and are removed as much as possible in the steel making process - Mn is added so that Manganese Sulphide (MnS is formed) rather S segregating and forming FeS at grain boundaries (recognise the FeS anyone?) - Si is either for fluidity or grain refinement)

There is the issue of colour and magnetism of this "gray layer", but when you understand that steel exposed to high temperatures like those seen in the WTC that the oxidised layer becomes hematite which is dark in colour and magnetic. See here for details http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~mprlh/

So what is the most likely conclusion?

[metamars]

If a thermite coating was all over the columns, and could be ignited by the heat of the plane crash, wouldn't all of the little chips knocked loose in the impact and ignited by the fireball be easily visible? Thermite burns very bright white, the impact would have looked like a starburst firework (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2241/1874964319_69e5271220_o.jpg).

If, by "little chips", you mean chips the size of Professor Jones' sample, certainly not. They're hard to see with the naked eye - how could you see them in photos taken hundreds of feet away? Also, their range will be tiny, due to air resistance (drag).

Even thicker ones would have, I would guess, a range more like DIME weapons. Good for igniting kerosene fuel, perhaps, but lousy for emulating fireworks.

[A W Smith]

If, by "little chips", you mean chips the size of Professor Jones' sample, certainly not. They're hard to see with the naked eye - how could you see them in photos taken hundreds of feet away? Also, their range will be tiny, due to air resistance (drag).

Even thicker ones would have, I would guess, a range more like DIME weapons. Good for igniting kerosene fuel, perhaps, but lousy for emulating fireworks.

So you allege chips and reactions which cannot be seen with the naked eye took out columns a man cannot wrap his arms around?

[Sunstealer]

as for the calcium:
"The large Ca and S peaks may be
due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard
material in the buildings."Please make an effort to at least make your posts easier to read - cutting and pasting with no formatting makes your posts almost unintelligible and it would be handy to put the page number of the report when you quote from it so we can find it easily (thanks), however, you ask good questions (a truther exception) and deserve a civil response.

One of the most ironic things about this paper is the lack of S in the majority of spectra. Truthers have been screaming about how S in thermite is able to liquefy steel (I wonder who that could be ;)) yet there is no significant quantity of S in the data.

We have had people saying that the only source of S is thermite and dismiss wall board and gypsum out of hand. Now we have Jones et al claiming that the S in their samples is not part of the thermite but possible contamination with gypsum!!

Truthers - which is it?

The whole point of adding S to thermite is to produce a higher flame temperature and make ignition easier, but guess what it's not in this 10µm layer of "thermite" - why not? It's been a crucial component of the thermite theory for ages. Why is it not there?

If they think that the Ca and S is contamination then they have the very tool to find out - a SEM. What they should do is go in at a higher resolution and find these particles they think are gypsum and confirm, not lazily wave it away with a possibility. It's these possibilities that alot of truthers then take up as definites when they are clearly not. What other sources of Ca and S could there be?

Well Ca is most likely Calcium Carbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate) - it's widely used in a huge number of applications (including paint). Zinc Sulphate is also very common.

This is the exact reason why EDS/EDX/XEDS is not good for determining compounds and finding out what a material is. It does not distinguish between crystal types and only picks out elements. Using this data for any conclusion is not advised. With simpler samples you can determine compounds but it's best to use the built in semi-quantitative EDS/EDX/XEDS software. Jones et al have not done this.


What we really want is XRD analysis - this will tell us EXACTLY what this material is. I've found a place in the USA that will take posted samples from around the world and charge $40 for the service. These samples need to have that test performed.

Screwing around with the SEM is a pointless exercise with these samples, because it can only give so much information.

[Pinch]

Mods:

Please move this to the mental pygmies section.

The people here have no interest in rational or scientific discussion.

I am very disappointed in the quality of the James Randi forum.

This person's argument reminds me of the guy who said he was going to launch a rocket to the sun. When told he's burn up before he got there, he replied that he already thought of that and he would launch at night.

He then asked if the discussion could be moved to the mental pygmies section.

[metamars]

These multi-layered chips are not the same as samples a-d, therefore not thermite,


I don't understand this. According to you, samples a-d are not thermite. Call this set A. Therefore, according to you, yet another chip, not a member of A, cannot be thermite.

If U is the universal set, then the multilayer chip is in U - A. But U - A contains thermite chips (well, I suppose that's debatable : - ), including a subset of multilayer thermite chips . Thus, U - A contains multilayer thermite chips, but you are claiming that the fact that Jones' multilayer thermite chip is in U - A is the reason that it is not thermite.

Contradiction

(Unless you are now going to claim that multi-layer thermite chips did not even exist on 9/11 - good luck proving that.)


they come from who knows where and are more likely to be paint on a sealant or epoxy that anything else. Do you scrape of all the paint to bear metal or wall everytime you paint something? No? Well how many layers do you think will build up over the years?


Would you be good enough to create a 6 layer paint chip, and take SEM pictures, and so on, to show to the world that you can create 6 layer paint chips that are dead ringers for Jones' ?

[metamars]

So you allege chips and reactions which cannot be seen with the naked eye took out columns a man cannot wrap his arms around?

This is so dumb a question that I am going to give you the opportunity to figure out what exactly is so dumb about it.

[boloboffin]

I don't understand this. According to you, samples a-d are not thermite. Call this set A. Therefore, according to you, yet another chip, not a member of A, cannot be thermite.

Would you mind not being so obtuse in this discussion?

[alienentity]

Wow. I have underwear bigger than a Yugo.

Overshare:covereyes

[Sunstealer]

The thing that bothers me most about the Jones, et. al. paper is that, on the one hand, I've never heard of elemental Al ( + Si ) in platelet form, while all nanothermite powders that I am aware of have elemental Al in spherical particles. Not saying it can't be done, but how on earth could Jones, et. al, not have anticipated this issue, and at least noted that they hadn't resolved it, yet? I'm not a material scientist, but my money is on material scientists demanding more proof that elemental-Al/Si platelets can even exist.Excellent post. I'll apologise now for having a go earlier (I was a bit tired and irritable from work) because with this post it's obvious that you have the ability to think and reason clearly, and come up with very good questions.

This is something that I have been meaning to get on about but haven't had a chance but seeing as you mention it.

All of the materials that I have seen for particulates of either Fe2O3 or Al have been crystals or spheres in the order of magnitude of 1µm. I haven't seen platelets of Al. I have no idea how you can manufacture platelets that small and have them contain both SiO2 and elemental Al and keep the platelet as a structure. Surely we would see individual particles of (elemental) Al just as clearly as we see sub-micron rhomboidal crystals of Fe2O3 in the red layer.

If as Jones claims the elemental Aluminium separates from these Al/Si/O platelets then he should be able to demonstrate, a before and after, 50,000x resolution shot, of the degradation (shape change) of theses platelets and clear distinct shapes of the now freed elemental Aluminium.

Why has he not done so?

Edit: Also note that the chip he claims the Al separated from is not one of the samples a-d, it's red layer spectrum is distinctly different and it did not have any detailed SEM work or photos produced (which would show Rhomboidal Fe203 and these platelets) before or after immersion in MEK.

[GregoryUrich]

...and that is the crux of your problem, alien. You are assuming that the material was not universally applied.

Once you crack the means with which the towers were demolished, the evidence discovered by Jones becomes insurmountable.

Government hacks - like the majority of posters in this thread - simply lack the power to deduce how the towers were demolished.

KreeL, if it was universally applied to the extent that it would effect the stability of the entire structure, you are talking about nearly the same mass as all the steel. On the order of 100,000 tons per building. I hope you can see that implementing your theory in practice would be an impossibility. This would also reduce the safety factor to a dangerously low level, at least in the core.

[phunk]

If, by "little chips", you mean chips the size of Professor Jones' sample, certainly not. They're hard to see with the naked eye - how could you see them in photos taken hundreds of feet away? Also, their range will be tiny, due to air resistance (drag).

Even thicker ones would have, I would guess, a range more like DIME weapons. Good for igniting kerosene fuel, perhaps, but lousy for emulating fireworks.

A chip the size of jones' sample, if it was thermite, would be easily visible from a long distance when ignited (thermite burns brighter than the sun) and air resistance wouldn't be an issue as the small chips would easily be blown out of the building by the large fireball.

[Unsecured Coins]

good. tell Jones to ignite it and see what happens.

[A W Smith]

This is so dumb a question that I am going to give you the opportunity to figure out what exactly is so dumb about it.

Well go ahead and spell it out. How thick does this layer have to be to take out a column??? Go ahead !! Explain!

[Sunstealer]

Are nano-materials relatively heavier than their standard counterparts ? If the particles are ground so fine that they can enter even mcro-structures such as the human cell you could get an awful lot of them in a cubic inch.Look up particles size distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_size_distribution) and packing density. That will answer your excellent question.

This is very relevant because for example if you were using 2 powders then you can never achieve full density because the particles will always leave gaps - packing density is a way of measuring a giving how dense a powdered material is.

Couldn't find a decent article on "Packing Density" so here's a quick

For example - get an ice cream tub. Fill it with marbles (of the same size) in the most efficient way possible (so most space is taken up). Now pour water into the tub. Take the marbles out. Pour the water into a measuring jug and take the reading. Put water back into the ice cream tub and fill to the top with water and then pour that into a measuring jug and take the reading.

The ratio between the two is the packing density of the marbles.

Now use marbles of different sizes. Does the packing density increase or decrease?

[beachnut]

I've got another buzzword for your list: structural nanofoils, p. 6, here (http://www.rntfoil.com/technology/documents/MicroNano-Heian4_07.pdf).



(emphasis mine)

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact, giving a spectacular fireball. In this case, there'd be no need to mess with the buildings at all.
No nanofoil needed for your doltish paranoid claim.

FUEhNKBi4DY

Why do you display such stupid statements? The impacts of flight 11 and 175 had large fireballs because that is what happens when the engines are running the jet is smashed while smashing the ground or a building. At least you have a delusion as big as Jones' paper.

Before you get your mind in overdrive the nanofoil is real, but your idea is pure poppycock save for adding to the idiotic scenarios of the dirt dumb 911Truth movement as you add more people responsible for 911.

Sorry, a jet at 470 and 590 mph with the engines running at and above cruise as they were on 911 give you a giant fireball. I can prove it, but I was beat by reality, and studies, and experience. At least you like to apologizes for the terrorist by implying other people beside 19 terrorists are murderers. Sad pathetic people makes up lies like Jones and 911Truth to satisfied some perverted bias they have. What is your anti-intellectual bias to make you spew delusions and make up lies?

Thermite? What a bunch of crap; standard products from a large building destroyed on 911 have been found and Jones leaves out all the possibilities so he can back in his nut case evidence to make his delusion real to those who lack knowledge and the capacity to think for themselves. At least you are making up your own perverted ideas on 911.

[Pinch]

Look at the entire episode of 9/11. You would have to be daft to actually believe that some guys that were working out on a jungle-gym in the desert suddenly became capable of piloting heavy commercial aircraft and defeated the air defenses of the United States.

Its funny when Truthers post things that emphasize and underscore their level of ignorant with regards to how things work.

"...piloting heavy commercial aircraft..."? You think that's difficult? You are a fool if you do.

"...defeated the air defenses of the United States?" Now THAT was a brilliant statement. My dog makes an equally brilliant statement every morning when I let him out. "Defeating" 4 NORAD alert aircraft in an air defense system that I'll admit had become lazy and complacent and accustomed to watching an ocean radar horizon that hadn't even had Soviet bombers fly past for a number of years is not my idea of anything special, especially when you consider hijacking an aircraft and killing the pilots to take over the cockpit would have been the most difficult part of the evolution. After that, your only enemy is time and when your intentions are to crash the aircraft into some skyscraper or a military headquarters, you don't need much time for that with a weapon that travels 7 miles a minute.

[dudalb]

Moderators, please take note: Galileo outright admits that his intention is to troll.

Uh, the Mods have stated that the rules of JREF do not forbid trolling.therefore Trolling a permitted within certain limits.
I strongly disagree with this policy, but the Mods call the shots.

[Sunstealer]

If the analysis of the grey mterial and the thermite residue shows that the particles are at the nanometer scale (one billionth of a meter) that is almost as suspicious as the thermite itself.No and thrice no. Please stop with this silly insinuation that nano is somehow special or that only thermite or some super special material can contain material of a nano-scale. It's blatantly not true.

We have been producing powders and other materials that have a nano-scale for decades, it is nothing out of the ordinary. Stop being sucked in by this nano-obsession and go and look at materials in the real world. There are thousands of applications that when you look at them very closely with a SEM have structures on the nano-scale.

I used to work for a company in the satellite industry and they were always at teh cutting edge of micro-electronics. We had a program of looking at the best method for attaching "fine wire gold bonds" - wires between electrical components http://electronicmaterials.usask.ca/images/photos/photo13.gif - they were forever reducing the size of these things and we had to make sure that the bond on the bottom of the foot was solid. Foot - http://archive.evaluationengineering.com/archive/articles/0406/images/xrayFIG2.jpg. The wire was only 17.5µm thick.

Now we had to mount, grind and polish these sections in order to get a view through the foot like a cross-section, examine it under the microscope. http://www.emeraldinsight.com/fig/2180250106005.png which is astoundingly difficult to do and takes great skill.

That was a nano-sized material and that was in 1997. There is nothing special about nano.

What size does a material have to be before it's classified as a nano material? I'm after a general figure Bill.

[bill smith]

If these two statements are true what can be the explanation ?

the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''--Hoffman
'' while the gray only contains iron and oxygen--Danish Professor ''

Sunstealer says there was also some Carbon though I'd say it was likely to have been very little given that the Danish guy did not think it worth mentining in his statement above.

We know that properties can change at nano-levels including a change in colour. So maybe the grey stuff IS actualy iron and oxygen- just a nano variety.

If that is true the jig is up.

[Lenbrazil]

Please forgive me if this has been covered already but I posted the following on another forum comments?

The tests performed by Harrit et. al. to eliminate the possibility the chips were ordinary paint were inadequate, they only performed two

I] –

We measured the resistivity of the red material (with very little gray adhering to one side) using a Fluke 8842A multimeter in order to compare with ordinary paints, using the formula:

Specific resistivity = RA / L
where R = resistance (ohms); A = cross-sectional area (m2); L
= thickness (m).

Given the small size of the red chip, about 0.5 mm x 0.5 mm, we used two probes and obtained a rough value of approximately 10 ohm-m. This is several orders of magnitude less than paint coatings we found tabulated which are typically over 10*10 ohm-m [31].

There a few problems:

1) though they had several chips they only tested one, since they reported a six fold variance for energy output there is no reason to expect other characteristics to be consistent.
2) The chip as they noted was very small, the size of a grain of sand. They reported having much larger ones. No explanation was given as to why the only chip tested was one of the smallest ones they had or if this could if have led to an erroneous reading
3) The title of the cited paper is “Zinc-ferrite pigment for corrosion protection” which suggests the table in it only covers a very specific class of paint. It costs GBP £14.50 “and VAT where applicable” if anyone is willing to spend the money OR has free access. The title also indicates no one should be surprised to find iron on paint.

emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContentItem.do;jsessionid=8C534FEDD35CAB1C15D0 85260A224173?contentType=Article&hdAction=lnkhtml&contentId=876638

4) They never explain why resistivity to electrical current should be considered a defining characteristic of paint. A Google search for: "specific resistance" paint omhs turned up only 2 hits. Though the terms were on the same pages the specific resistance of paint wasn’t discussed in either.
5) They never explain why low resistivity should be considered indicative of the material being a thermitic compound

II] –

Another test, described above, involved subjection of red chips to methyl ethyl ketone solvent for tens of hours, with agitation. The red material did swell but did not dissolve, and a hard silicon-rich matrix remained after this procedure. On the other hand, paint samples in the same exposure to MEK solvent became limp and showed significant dissolution, as expected since MEK is a paint solvent.

This is also problematic because they never tell their readers what types of paint were tested. Thus they fell fall short of demonstrating that MEK dissolves all types of paint. I just e-mail someone who sells the solvent and asked and will report back either way.

[Sunstealer]

from what sunstealer says about the gray layer:
"The "gray layer" looks more and more likely to be a flake of oxidised A36 steel - they are making excuses for the amount of Carbon present and if it is correct that there is an Mn peak at just under 6KeV in samples a,b and d then that's the clincher right there."

so if there are layers and layers of oxidised A36 steel then i can see the what u are saying but i highly doubt that.

so since some chips are multiple layered (6 layers), could that rule out oxidised A36 steel between each layer? and would the picture sunstealer posts "seperated at birth be void when speaking of these multiple layered chips?I think I've answered that in another post - see page 31 of this thread.

What people have to realise is that the samples that Jones has are not all of the same type. This is an indicator that all of his samples are not thermite.

The NIST photo that i refer to ONLY relates to samples a-d in Jones' paper - nothing more nothing less. So yes it is void when talking about the other chips but I think I covered that in the earlier post - page 31.

You have to start looking very closely at each individual chip and the EDS data associated with each one. Only then will you see that the chips are indeterminably different - you cannot take them as a whole.

[Sunstealer]

Physical Structure of the Chips:-

Chips having distinctive and similar physical features were found in all four of the dust samples, ranging in length from from about 0.2 to 3 mm. Each chip has stratified layers of two types: a red layer and a lighter gray layer, where each layer is between roughly 10 and 100 microns in thickness. Despite their small size, the chips are readily visible in the samples because of their flat shapes, distinctive color, and layered structure. The chips are tough despite being as thin as eggshells.

Magnification reveals that the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material, whereas the red layers have small particles embedded in a matrix of slightly translucent material.

At magnification of 50,000 the structure of the two types of particles is clear: small bright particles having a faceted shape and measuring about 100 nm in diameter, and larger particles having a flat and often hexagonal shape and measuring about 1000 nm across and 40 nm thick.

The particles are held in place and in close proximity to each other by the porous matrix. Soaking the chips in methyl ethyl ketone, a solvent that dissolves paint, caused the red layer to swell while remaining intact.

Up to this point, I have reviewed only characteristics of the chips revealed by macro- and micro-scopic visual examination, but already the implications are stunning: the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogenous material. The student of energetic materials will appreciate that this description matches exactly that of a super-thermite in which the reactant particles are suspended in a sol-gel matrix applied to a substrate.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html#chip_structureDross - it's already been shown in the paper that

Fe-rich grains and Al/Si plate-like particles and that these particles are embedded in a carbon-rich matrix. in the paper. There is no need to quote the whole of that section. It does not match exactly the nature of nano-thermite, far from it. Stop going to truther sites and learn about the word nano.

The person who wrote what you quote has never ever sat in on an SEM session otherwise they wouldn't be so wowed. I do a facepalm everytime I see people with zero experience start waxing lyrical about this and that - they plainly have no clue.

[Sunstealer]

************************************************** *********************
''...The chips are tough despite being as thin as eggshells.''
'' Magnification reveals that the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''

'' the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogenous material.''

'' The particles are held in place and in close proximity to each other by the porous matrix.''
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html#chip_structure.
************************************************** ******

the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''--Hoffman
'' while the gray only contains iron and oxygen--Danish Professor ''

Surely he iron would have oxidised over the last seven years ? Rusted away even. There has to be more to this ?It is rust most likely in the form of Hematite, see postings on this page and all my others. For rust to occur you need oxygen and water. These samples will have been kept in bags away from water hence why the rust hasn't completely vanished.

Opaque homogenous material! WTF! Opaque! Is he saying the "gray layer" is see through? Honestly these people have absolutely no clue, the last thing you can describe that material as is bloody opaque!

He doesn't even comment on the cracks and their morphology in the "gray layer", clearly indicating a brittle material. oh /facepalm, it's too much stupid to comprehend.

:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

[Galileo]

you, my friend, are a JREFer.

personal attacks are not allowed in this forum. You can go after my ideas if you want to.

[bill smith]

Is the paint argument holding it's own ? I'm not sure that it is. The paint s all there is though as far as I can see. Concerned citizens reading this thread might be starting to form conclusions.

[Galileo]

Not to make excuses for NIST, but they certainly had time and budget constraints. They also made other mistakes that worked against their conclusions.

Gordon's theory is pure conjecture and is refuted by the sound recordings (on videos) of the collapses. Any explosive that could sever steel would be heard clearly and blow out windows. Neither was observed. I cover this in my Open Letter to Richard Gage and compare sound levels to actual demolitions...easy to find on google.

Greg;

Thank you for the thoughtful comments.

I would say that the discovery of the nano-thermite shows that the explosions might not be picked up on tape, if that is really the case that they weren't. I heard a lot of loud noises that day.

Many windows were blown out by steel beams that flew 500 feet through the air.

[Pinch]

One can imagine fuel tanks incorporating thick nanofoils, which "ignite with high heat" on impact, giving a spectacular fireball. In this case, there'd be no need to mess with the buildings at all.

No nanofoil needed for your doltish paranoid claim.

]Why do you display such stupid statements? The impacts of flight 11 and 175 had large fireballs because that is what happens when the engines are running the jet is smashed while smashing the ground or a building. At least you have a delusion as big as Jones' paper.

Reminds me of the argument/claims by some of the Truthers of a missile that was fired a nanosecond before impact with the WTC to help open a hole for the aircraft.

What a 500 or 1000 lb blast frag warhead is going to do to "open a hole" for a 90-ton compilation of aluminum and titanium and steel and fuel and people traveling at 7 miles a minute is really pretty funny to even think of.

But, that is the Truther Way.

[Sunstealer]

I don't understand this. According to you, samples a-d are not thermite. Call this set A. Therefore, according to you, yet another chip, not a member of A, cannot be thermite.

If U is the universal set, then the multilayer chip is in U - A. But U - A contains thermite chips (well, I suppose that's debatable : - ), including a subset of multilayer thermite chips . Thus, U - A contains multilayer thermite chips, but you are claiming that the fact that Jones' multilayer thermite chip is in U - A is the reason that it is not thermite.

ContradictionSorry I wasn't clear enough. Chip seen in Fig 31 is significantly different to samples a-d, therefore he cannot claim that both are thermite. He is claiming that both are thermite. It's a no go.

Bearing in mind I have shown beyond any reasonable doubt that samples a-d are hematite and red paint then sample from Fig 31 must be looked at in more detail. Having done that then I can conclude that that one is even further away from what thermite can be.

The chips are obviously paint, but from different sources. Why is it so hard to imagine that amongst the dust samples collected are flecks of paint from many different sources.

The largest element reported in the dust was Titanium iirc (must find the link to the substantial report) due to all of the white paint present in the samples (TiO2)

(Unless you are now going to claim that multi-layer thermite chips did not even exist on 9/11 - good luck proving that.)No, obviously not but how hard is it to realise that some one paints an item once every year, producing 5 layers of primer and 5 layers of paint and that a tiny bit of this flecks off and is collected in the sample? There are literally thousands of sources for this material to have come from or are truthers suggesting that the only building painted in NY is the WTC? One of the samples was collected from close to the Brooklyn Bridge - I bet there is a hell of alot of paint flaking off of that each year.

Would you be good enough to create a 6 layer paint chip, and take SEM pictures, and so on, to show to the world that you can create 6 layer paint chips that are dead ringers for Jones' ?Why - any layered substance is going to show layers in a SEM.

Infact I'll do it and that's a promise. I will use the exact same paint that Jones used in the MEK test.......

...... damn, metamars, be a good chap will you and find the bit in Jones' report where it details what paint he used. Thanks.

[lapman]

Greg;

Thank you for the thoughtful comments.

I would say that the discovery of the nano-thermite shows that the explosions might not be picked up on tape, if that is really the case that they weren't. I heard a lot of loud noises that day.

Many windows were blown out by steel beams that flew 500 feet through the air.
Oh. Super-Sekrit-Nano-Therm*te can blow steel beams weighing many tons 500 feet, yet only make a little sound.

:dl::dl::dl::dl::dl:

[boloboffin]

Someone at DU has asserted that they can tell a difference between the NIST photograph of peeling paint and Jones' pictures of red/gray chips.

So I thought a little experiment would be in order:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/911/Comparison.jpg

[Sunstealer]

If these two statements are true what can be the explanation ?

the gray layers are composed of an opaque homogenous material,''--Hoffman
'' while the gray only contains iron and oxygen--Danish Professor ''

Sunstealer says there was also some Carbon though I'd say it was likely to have been very little given that the Danish guy did not think it worth mentining in his statement above.No, it's clearly in the EDS data with a significant peak - please tell me how you or him can dismiss it. It's far too significant - originally I thought it might have been an over lap but looking at the other EDS traces this isn't possible. That material definitely contains Carbon and there is the possibility of Mn too. So that statement is false.

The opaque statement is bananas.

We know that properties can change at nano-levels including a change in colour. So maybe the grey stuff IS actualy iron and oxygen- just a nano variety.

If that is true the jig is up.No the gray layer is likely to be oxidesed steel. Forget the nano. There is nothing special about the word nano. We deal with polycrystalline materials (metals and alloys to you) that have structures in the order of nanometres all of the time. There is nothing special about them. Please desist with the "nano noona nonsense".

[Galileo]

Not to make excuses for NIST, but they certainly had time and budget constraints. They also made other mistakes that worked against their conclusions.

Gordon's theory is pure conjecture and is refuted by the sound recordings (on videos) of the collapses. Any explosive that could sever steel would be heard clearly and blow out windows. Neither was observed. I cover this in my Open Letter to Richard Gage and compare sound levels to actual demolitions...easy to find on google.

btw

I your open questions to Gage when you posted it here.

While your debunking is better than any other person here at JREF, it fails to undermine the claims of Gage.

[Galileo]

Oh. Super-Sekrit-Nano-Therm*te can blow steel beams weighing many tons 500 feet, yet only make a little sound.

:dl::dl::dl::dl::dl:

What explosive did blow the columns 500 feet?

[Galileo]

Uh, the Mods have stated that the rules of JREF do not forbid trolling.therefore Trolling a permitted within certain limits.
I strongly disagree with this policy, but the Mods call the shots.

I do not know what a "troll" is. It does not appear in my dictionary, except as to describe it as something like a gremlin or other fantasy creature.

Whatever it is, I am not. I am a truth-seeker and defender of human liberty!

[beachnut]

When I retired my deepest regret was losing the Black Helicopter.
I lost access to the big jet with nanofoil fuel tanks.

Jones paid how much to publish his tripe?

And all Jones says is he found some iron rust and Al; but he leaves out the Si, Ca, Cr, Na, and other elements that foil his super thermite day. Do the kool-aid drinking 911Truth delusions believers understand these elements are present without the super thermite scenario?

[BCR]

I do not know what a "troll" is. It does not appear in my dictionary, except as to describe it as something like a gremlin or other fantasy creature.

Whatever it is, I am not. I am a truth-seeker and defender of human liberty!

Try looking in a mirror.

[lapman]

What explosive did blow the columns 500 feet?
There weren't any explosives. The audio recordings is irrefutable proof of that.

Can you present any explosive that can do that silently? Include real experiments that have been done.

[Galileo]

For those who haven't seen it, this will probably convince you:

Thermite Experiment!

Some clips of Thermite from Brainiac science abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrCWLpRc1yM

Looks like the Twin Towers, doesn't it?