Camera emits rays

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.randi.org/jr/112103.html

From the seance report involving Montague Keen, reported by Tony Youens:


Cadwell's spirit: I understand: any form of electrical equipment that is used for infra-red photographic images of any sort does exude a type of ray, I believe the right word is, but of what consistency I do not know, but this type of ray that is exuded from the photographical equipment has a burning sensation upon the ectoplasm.
Woo woo woo! Some infrared photography may involve illumination with infrared light (light emitting diodes are generally used nowadays), but passive IR cameras emit nothing, they will only record the IR light (heat) emitted by people and objects in the scene.

This is like saying that vision happens by people emitting light from their eyes.

[Keneke]

I'm surprised Randi didn't catch that.

[geni]

If the camra is eletronic then there is going to be some livel of EM radition given off.

[arcticpenguin]

"some level". Negligible. Certainly less than is given out by a talking coffee pot.

[Stumpy]

geni wrote:

If the camra is eletronic then there is going to be some livel of EM radition given off

I'm not sure of the levels of EM radiation given off by a battery powered Thermal imaging camera, but I can't imagine that the levels would be that much different from the electronic tape recorder and microphone which Keen mentions using to record the seance. The recorder was placed right in the circle of sitters. Similarly there is frequent mention of music being played, I am guessing that some sort of EM emitting electronic device was used to play this. Under these circumstances, I can't see a problem with the Thermal Imaging camera.

[geni]

On the basis that the tape recorder contains a motor to drive it I would expect it to give out quite a bit more EM radiation than the camera.

[LTC8K6]

You mean we can keep ectoplasmic spirits at bay with a cheap little IR led?

Cool! :D

[Hamish]

Yep, you can zap 'em with your TV remote control!:D

[xouper]

LTC8K6: You mean we can keep ectoplasmic spirits at bay with a cheap little IR led? Cool! :D

Hamish: Yep, you can zap 'em with your TV remote control! :D:cs::cs::cs:

[Ove]

I'm not sure of the levels of EM radiation given off by a battery powered Thermal imaging camera, but I can't imagine that the levels would be that much different from the electronic tape recorder and microphone which Keen mentions using to record the seance. The recorder was placed right in the circle of sitters. Similarly there is frequent mention of music being played, I am guessing that some sort of EM emitting electronic device was used to play this. Under these circumstances, I can't see a problem with the Thermal Imaging camera.


Take the word from one that :

1. Uses thermal imaging professionally.
2. Has office 20m. from the EMC departement

A thermal imaging camera emits MUCH less "radiation" than a tape recorder. He must be thinking off theese ancient cameras with IR-sensitive film and IR emitting flashbulbs. I saw those in my uncle's old "Popular Mechanics" magazines from the 50's. :D

Typical Pseudosience.

[patnray]

You are all being too logical. This is a woo-woo claim. He is obviously stating that the very act of capturing IR light emits a "ray", unknown to science and thus unmeasurable, that "burns ectoplasm". No amount of EM measurement will convince him otherwise. It is a very convenient excuse for banning IR cameras that no amount of evidence or logic can penetrate...

But I'm keeping my remote control handy. Gives a new meaning to Universal Remote!

[patnray]

It just occured to me that if IR cameras emit "rays" that "burn ectoplasm", then an IR camera should be in every "ghost buster's" tool box. Just turn on the IR camera until all the poltergiests are toast...

[geni]

Wouldn't it be posible to make a camera that used IR film and was driven by clockwork?

[rustypouch]

IR film is available in 35mm and sheet flim. There are all types of 35mm cameras that are totally mechcanical, and I have yet to see a large format camera with any electronics at all in it.

So the solution is to go ghost hunting with a large format camera!

[nick]

Originally posted by patnray
You are all being too logical. This is a woo-woo claim. He is obviously stating that the very act of capturing IR light emits a "ray", unknown to science and thus unmeasurable, that "burns ectoplasm". No amount of EM measurement will convince him otherwise. It is a very convenient excuse for banning IR cameras that no amount of evidence or logic can penetrate...


I wonder if everyone was told to turn their cellphone off too ? Oh, and was the cell company told to turn off all transmitting masts within "range" ? And what "range" would that be ? And how would the "range" be determined ? As a function of milliwatts of power ?

When the woo-woos use words like "burn", we should jump on them. Define burn. Oxidise ? Change of chemical nature ? Exothermic or endothermic reaction ? How much heat given off/taken in ?

[kuroyume0161]

Originally posted by nick


I wonder if everyone was told to turn their cellphone off too ? Oh, and was the cell company told to turn off all transmitting masts within "range" ? And what "range" would that be ? And how would the "range" be determined ? As a function of milliwatts of power ?

When the woo-woos use words like "burn", we should jump on them. Define burn. Oxidise ? Change of chemical nature ? Exothermic or endothermic reaction ? How much heat given off/taken in ?

I'm in love. :0P Keep talking like that, nick, it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside - that would be endothermic, correct? :)

The moment one of these woo-woos actually starts being technically and accurately specific about "vibration", "energy", "field", "aura", or any other generic, scienfikic-sounding term, I'll eat my horses...raw!

Kuroyume

[Zep]

Forget the IR cameras. Just light a match at the right time...

A thought: How does Keen know that IR or some other "ray" actually burns ectoplasm? Has he tried it? Which "rays" has he tested this with? How does he know it's some "unknown" ray zapping the ectoplasm if he hasn't even tried it? If he HAS, how come the ray is still "unknown"? And where are his research results that confirm all this? It would be most illuminating, scientifically!

Or - Ed forfend - is this just another instance of Keen talking through his hat* again...as per usual?

* I was going to say "talking out of his arse," but thought better of it.

[patnray]

Look again. It is the "spirit" telling him that some type of "ray" causes a burning sensation to the ectoplasm. Not an EM ray, or any kind known to science, because that could be measured. And, as pointed out, we are awash in EM rays. No. It is an unknown ray that can't be detected by science, so he can't be proven wrong...

No fact or logic can penetrate the fantasy.

[Beanbag]

Originally posted by geni
Wouldn't it be posible to make a camera that used IR film and was driven by clockwork?

It's a common mistake to think that IR film will let you take pictures in the dark. There has to be some IR source to record. For room-temperature handleable IR films, for an image to register on the film for any reasonable exposure time, the object being photographed would have to be very hot, like well over boiling. As one expert I read in the 70's put it (sorry, no source to quote, too long ago), if you can take IR pictures in a totally dark room, you need to get out fast, because something's about to catch fire. There ARE some IR films that could do the trick, but they have to be kept cold (like below freezing) and are a cast iron bitch to use. If you let them warm up at all, they fog up just like they've been left out in the sun.

Considering the inexpensive IR viewers available these days, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that hoaxsters might be using them already. It wouldn't be difficult at all to string a few hi-intensity IR LED sources around the room, powered by a couple of D cells, hidden in common objects. They'd easily run for at least four hours, and there'd be no wires. The technology's gotten really better than the old Korean war era image converters that used to show up from time to time in the Man from U.N.C.L.E. series. The last thing a hoaxster would want is another viewer or camera betraying the fact that the room's lit up like xmas.

Regards;
Beanbag (who used to piddle around a bit with IR film -- not too much, though)

[Zep]

Originally posted by patnray
Look again. It is the "spirit" telling him that some type of "ray" causes a burning sensation to the ectoplasm. Not an EM ray, or any kind known to science, because that could be measured. And, as pointed out, we are awash in EM rays. No. It is an unknown ray that can't be detected by science, so he can't be proven wrong...

No fact or logic can penetrate the fantasy. Then how can it be anything "unknown" if he says it's some spirit telling him about it in detail? Wouldn't that now mean that it is now "known," at least by him? Why can't the spirit tell him more about this, having got as far as specifically telling him that it is unmeasurable by science and it burns only ectoplasm.

Really, it's obvious that Keane is a grade-A, card-carrying, tuberculin-free, polyunsaturated, certifiable LoOnEy!

[patnray]

A Looney, yes. But you can't prove him wrong by facts or logic.

You'd have to smuggle an IR camera into a seance and trick him into saying the spirits did not experience any burning sensations before you revealed that the session was recorded in IR.

Caught in such a contradiction, I'm sure he'd invent an equally untestable excuse to explain it.

Perhaps the IR recording would provide a more telling reason....

[Zep]

Alas, patnray, you are being reasonable in our sense of the word. In Keane's situation, anything we might do to prove him wrong is "unreasonable," and anything he says or does that supports his own view of reality is completely reasonable. If I'm not mistaken (psychologists feel free to jump in at any time here!), a distorted view of reality is known as "schizophrenia".

[patnray]

That is so true. But one wonders... The fantasies are sooo carefully crafted to avoid any statement that could actually be tested and proven wrong that they clearly understand the rules of logic and evidence in the real world...

Hopefully the hoaxes will eventually be uncovered, but Keane and the others will make any excuse to avoid any test that could reveal their secrets...

[TheBoyPaj]

I could never understand why they used video cameras as part of the Scole experiments (the "spirits" put images on the tape), but did not allow anyone else to film the lights and apparitions which they claim to have appeared.

Well, I do understand why they didn't allow it, of course. But I don't understand how they have fooled so many supposedly rational people.

[Zep]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj Well, I do understand why they didn't allow it, of course. But I don't understand how they have fooled so many supposedly rational people. The "supposedly rational people" of which you speak are, more often than not, the junk media, who would cheerfully kill and skin their own grandmothers to put their words and pictures on the front page tomorow or tonight's 11pm TV news.

In other words, most GENUINELY rational people think that Scole is woo-woo lunacy too, but they just don't get to say it in public.