Can I save my friend from Jesus?

[Cavemonster]

I recently visited a friend who I haven't seen in years. It turns out that he married the first woman he ever dated who happens to be a very extreme Christian.

Take Kurious Kathy and double it, you'll get a sense of this woman. At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!

About half of the words out of her mouth were along these lines.

Now I know I can't "convert" my friend away from these dangerous and unsound beliefs. I know I can't change his mind about his wife. What I'm wondering is how I can be a good influence on this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful man. Is it worthless to engage either of them in debate?

My instinct was to pull him aside and whisper. "This woman you have married is insane *rule 10* insane. You need to run far away from her!"

I can already see the negative effect on his life, the people they shun because of their "wickedness". The insistence on biblically inspired gender roles. (She several times when he wasn't in the room, complained about ways in which he didn't fit a traditional "male" stereotype.)

So if you were in this situation, what could you do for your friend?

[Kevin_Lowe]

Stone her.

[Cavemonster]

If only life were that simple.

[quixotecoyote]

So if you were in this situation, what could you do for your friend?

Nothing.

To quote the great Percy Sledge:

When a man loves a woman, he can't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world for the good thing he's found
If she is bad, he can't see it, she can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend if he put her down

[The Norseman]

Once my friend told me to "run away. Run far away." with regards to my first girlfriend. He saw, I ignored it, to my detriment. He did what I'd do -- he stuck by me anyway, didn't denigrate her (while we were together) but continued to gently point out her icky behavior to me.

It's all you can do. Take him aside, explain the behaviors you've seen, explain how you see it as being harmful to himself, explain that you'll stand by him as his friend. Do not denigrate her or say insulting things about her to him. You definitely do not want any kind of knee-jerk reaction in him in "protecting" his wife or being defensive for he is probably quite aware of his mistake and perhaps feels that he can't change his mind.

I'm guessing, but that's kinda what I went through.

[Kopji]

Sorry, not much help here. I'd probably agree to a debate then start giggling at her partway through. My friend would get mad at me and do something like ask for the money back that he'd loaned me long ago and I'd totally forgotten about. He'd leave with her crying on his arm for my lost soul, and I'd be left with the check too.

[Fnord]

Once someone has partaken of the Blood and the Flesh, they are no longer of the World. Be at peace.

Seriously, once a man has fallen in love/lust with a woman, she can pretty well dictate his thoughts for him. Continue to be his friend, but know that you will forever be "That doomed Jew" to his wife, especially once he starts sneaking out on her to spend time having fun with his old friends like you.

[Fiona]

What was she doing being in the same room with you without her husband????

I think that is wicked!!

[steve s]

Ask her why she hasn't given up all her worldly possessions (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014:33;&version=31;).

Steve S.

[Cavemonster]

What was she doing being in the same room with you without her husband????

I think that is wicked!!

Like most of the most aggressive Christians, she actually hasn't read the entire bible.

She mentioned that since she found Jesus she couldn't stand to hang out with drunk or stoned people. I mentioned that the biblical Jesus made a point of hanging out with drunks and the wicked, she didn't seem familiar with those passages.

[NobbyNobbs]

The insistence on biblically inspired gender roles. (She several times when he wasn't in the room, complained about ways in which he didn't fit a traditional "male" stereotype.)

So if you were in this situation, what could you do for your friend?

I'd point out to her that it isn't a woman's place to denigrate her husband. And doing it as she did, behind his back, is almost certainly a sin of some kind, somewhere in the "lying" category, I'd imagine.

:D

[Minarvia]

Oh no, they've got you too!

It's like a zombie plague out there!

Yah, and with the "appeal to authority" fallacy built right in. :)

But as to the OP, sadly, I don't think your friend can be helped. He'll need to have enough time with her and likely he'll come to his senses sooner or later on his own. I think preaching gets old with most people rather quickly.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Shermer had a similar thing in his past.

Pray for divorce.

[Baby Nemesis]

I don't know if any of these suggestions would work, but:

It may be that she's a new Christian and her fanaticism will die down after a while.

Or you could learn the New Testament better than she knows it, and point out to her when she herself isn't living up to it, and also ask her questions to make her think about what she's saying. She may modify her beliefs in time. For instance:

At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Your possible answer next time:

"Yes, but if they had, they wouldn't have killed him so he couldn't have died for your sins, and you'd be a goner."

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!

Is God really cruel enough to send little children to hell? What kind of a God's that?

I can already see the negative effect on his life, the people they shun because of their "wickedness".

So if that topic comes up, ask whether it's really right to shun those people, or whether they should be emulating Jesus in "mixing with tax collectors and prostitutes".

(She several times when he wasn't in the room, complained about ways in which he didn't fit a traditional "male" stereotype.)

She complained about him behind his back? That was unbiblical! Next time she does that, quote Matthew 18:

15 "If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.

If you think she feels superior, she might not after having a few of her own faults biblically commented on.

Even if nothing you say makes her think, it might make him think, and he might carry on the debate with her later.

The important thing is that you don't discredit your arguments by saying things that are inaccurate; so resist the temptation to go overboard with what you say. Also, don't say anything inflammatory enough for it to turn into a heated argument, or she'll be too busy defending her position to take in anything you say. Just asking a few innocent-sounding questions here and there might work better.

[stilicho]

Now I know I can't "convert" my friend away from these dangerous and unsound beliefs.

Why do you feel your influence is worthless?

[Cavemonster]

If you think she feels superior, she might not after having a few of her own faults biblically commented on.


As mentioned above, we tried a little of that. She doesn't know the bible very well. It never ceases to amaze me that people who feel that this book contains the great wisdom of the universe and specific instructions for living the best way we can, have not bothered to read the whole thing in English, much less probe the Greek and Hebrew for deeper truths.

She was unaware of any stories involving Abraham, as an example.

[Minarvia]

Welcome, James, but yes, Cavemonster is right. Your long post is entirely off topic. There have been enough instances of this that moderator action takes place frequently. We all derail sometimes but try to get back to the OP. In this case, Cavemonster is worried about his friend and wants some feedback and/or advice.

Cavemonster, I hope your friend tires of his wife's preaching and tells her. She may let up once she feels more secure in their relationship. Have they been married long? If not, there may be hope!

[Cavemonster]

Why do you feel your influence is worthless?

I don't, but I haven't been a part of his life for a while, I can't presume to have the power to waltz in and change his most deeply help beliefs.

He isn't an idiot or unexposed to logic either. He's read Dawkins, I can't assume, like so many Christians do that he has never heard the arguments before.

We had several long long talks about his feelings on marriage, lifelong, unbreakable committment in the face of any fault it is something very central to his worldview. I wish I could wake him up and show him how dangerous she is, but barring that, I'd like to help him avoid getting fully swept up in her craziness.

[Fiona]

Cavemonster, it occurs to me to ask why you believe he is at risk? I think many people are married to folk who have strong views at odds with their own. Maybe they have to be views which do not directly violate one's value system but so long as that holds they can perhaps co-exist.

When there are no outsiders there it is possible this is not much of an issue between them? I do not know but I think that could happen. And if you have not seen your friend for a while then perhaps he is taking steps to build some balance in to his life and retain contact with those outside this religion?

[Hokulele]

I don't, but I haven't been a part of his life for a while, I can't presume to have the power to waltz in and change his most deeply help beliefs.

He isn't an idiot or unexposed to logic either. He's read Dawkins, I can't assume, like so many Christians do that he has never heard the arguments before.

We had several long long talks about his feelings on marriage, lifelong, unbreakable committment in the face of any fault it is something very central to his worldview. I wish I could wake him up and show him how dangerous she is, but barring that, I'd like to help him avoid getting fully swept up in her craziness.


Does he feel like he can disagree with her on anything? If not, I would say that this might be a sign of serious trouble. If so, maybe encouraging a sense of "agree to disagree" between you and his wife as well as between he and his wife can help to keep both the friendship (which you value) and his marriage (which he values) strong.

[Cavemonster]

Does he feel like he can disagree with her on anything? If not, I would say that this might be a sign of serious trouble. If so, maybe encouraging a sense of "agree to disagree" between you and his wife as well as between he and his wife can help to keep both the friendship (which you value) and his marriage (which he values) strong.

Interestingly enough, she asked me what I thought of the phrase "agree to disagree". I said I thought it could be very useful. She said that she hated it, because she believes in an absolute truth, which she thinks is obvious to everyone, but that some choose to deny.

Fiona,
You're right, that I don't know everything about the nature of their life. And there were clearly positive aspects to their shared beliefs, they both spoke about and seemed to practice scrupulous honesty, and a lot of other things informed by their faith and pretty clearly good things.

But the absolute and repeated condemnation of what goes against her faith seems to have some strong consequences. She seemed on the verge of leaving her job over the "wickedness" of her co-workers, which after a bit of pressing, seems to mean their non Christianness. She's very free with her condemnation of any other way of looking at the world. The "selfishness" of Buddhism came up a few times, the "perversion" of Catholicism. This isn't just a few offhand comments, this is a good part of her conversation.

They very well may have a great harmony between them, but in many ways she seems to smother many of their connections to the outside world.

[Baby Nemesis]

As mentioned above, we tried a little of that. She doesn't know the bible very well. It never ceases to amaze me that people who feel that this book contains the great wisdom of the universe and specific instructions for living the best way we can, have not bothered to read the whole thing in English, much less probe the Greek and Hebrew for deeper truths.

She was unaware of any stories involving Abraham, as an example.

Wow!

Then perhaps you could encourage her to read the New Testament for herself, starting with the gospels. She may be just repeating things her church has taught her. Reading the NT for herself might give her a more moderate perspective. After all, you say their faith has influenced them in good ways as well; so if she just got a different balance in her life, perhaps everything would be allright. ... (Or maybe I'm just the naive idealist).

But the absolute and repeated condemnation of what goes against her faith seems to have some strong consequences. She seemed on the verge of leaving her job over the "wickedness" of her co-workers, which after a bit of pressing, seems to mean their non Christianness.

Perhaps if she was asked questions that showed up inconsistencies in her thinking, she might reflect a bit on things, and her thinking would become a bit more moderate. For instance,

If she shut herself off from non-Christians, how could she ever witness to them, something she obviously feels is extremely important?

Having said that, maybe she ought to consider that witnessing when she's supposed to be working would be violating Jesus' admonition to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"; so by the same token, couldn't she get on with her work instead of dwelling on the non-Christian influence around her?

Is her work itself in keeping with the ethos of the New Testament - i.e. something that benefits others? If it is, isn't that more important than the fact that her colleagues are non-Christian?

If she left her job without another one to go to, would she not be in violation of the apostle Paul's instructions to people to work for their living?

Hopefully the more questions you ask her, the more she'll reflect on what she's doing.

She's very free with her condemnation of any other way of looking at the world. The "selfishness" of Buddhism came up a few times, the "perversion" of Catholicism. This isn't just a few offhand
comments, this is a good part of her conversation.

Perhaps you could ask her just what the point of all her condemnation is. Paul condemned what he said was false teaching, but only to inform and warn people about it, not as an end in itself. If she's condemning purely for the purpose of condemning, perhaps it could be put to her that she's disobeying Paul's teaching:

Philippians chapter 4 (Living Bible)

8 Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely, and dwell on the fine, good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about.

Oh yes, Paul was in the business of cognitive behavioural therapy even then. :D

[Cavemonster]

Babynemesis,
I did encourage her to read the whole bible, but I feel that she is pretty firmly draped in her faith, and my suggestions don't count for much with her anyway.

I guess my biggest fear is that constant exposure to "Any view contrary to this particular blend of Christianity is wrong and doesn't even need to be considered" will beat down the thoughtful, inquisitive part of my friend.

[Fiona]

I think it is important to ensure he has links outside that mindset, Cavemonster. I do not think that kind of influence works if it does not achieve a measure of isolation. So I think the best you can do is to take him out for beers or whatever you both enjoy: and avoid the subject but have some fun absent god from time to time

[Baby Nemesis]

Babynemesis,
I did encourage her to read the whole bible, but I feel that she is pretty firmly draped in her faith, and my suggestions don't count for much with her anyway.

I guess my biggest fear is that constant exposure to "Any view contrary to this particular blend of Christianity is wrong and doesn't even need to be considered" will beat down the thoughtful, inquisitive part of my friend.

Perhaps you could help prevent that.

Regarding reading the Bible, she probably wouldn't take any notice if you put it to her that it might cause her to question her faith, because she wouldn't want to do that. But the idea of just reading the New Testament as a way of helping her in her faith might appeal to her.

Even if asking her questions doesn't have an effect on her, it might reduce the possibility of your friend being totally sucked into her way of thinking, because it might influence him to question it more.

And if he's interested in learning about logical fallacies, maybe you could pass on a few links to him, such as this one. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

[CasaRojo]

Stone her.

I was kinda lookin' forward to a crucifixion.

[MG1962]

I don't, but I haven't been a part of his life for a while, I can't presume to have the power to waltz in and change his most deeply help beliefs.

He isn't an idiot or unexposed to logic either. He's read Dawkins, I can't assume, like so many Christians do that he has never heard the arguments before.

We had several long long talks about his feelings on marriage, lifelong, unbreakable committment in the face of any fault it is something very central to his worldview. I wish I could wake him up and show him how dangerous she is, but barring that, I'd like to help him avoid getting fully swept up in her craziness.

My suggestion, stay out of it. Matters of the heart are like live mine fields. I understand your frustration, but the bonds of love and marriage are definately stronger than the advice of friends.

[hgc]

Show your friend this -- tell him it's his future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpva_iit-8

[Tricky]

I've moved several off-topic and bickering posts to AAH. It is possible that the derail deserves its own thread, but I cannot figure out what to call it, so I will leave it to James Redford to start such a thread if he wants to. I request that he does not repeat the derail here or in other unrelated threads.

Thank you.

[NobbyNobbs]

Interestingly enough, she asked me what I thought of the phrase "agree to disagree". I said I thought it could be very useful. She said that she hated it, because she believes in an absolute truth, which she thinks is obvious to everyone, but that some choose to deny.




Interesting.

Ask her what the best flavor of ice cream is. If she says "vanilla", tell her you think it's chocolate. See if she'll agree to disagree, or if she maintains it's an absolute truth that vanilla is better and that you simply choose to deny it.

If the former, it's a start, and shows that it's not really the "agree to disagree" concept she has a problem with.

If the latter, then there is no hope. Back away slowly and don't make any sudden movements.

[kurious_kathy]

I recently visited a friend who I haven't seen in years. It turns out that he married the first woman he ever dated who happens to be a very extreme Christian.

Take Kurious Kathy and double it, you'll get a sense of this woman. At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!

About half of the words out of her mouth were along these lines.

Now I know I can't "convert" my friend away from these dangerous and unsound beliefs. I know I can't change his mind about his wife. What I'm wondering is how I can be a good influence on this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful man. Is it worthless to engage either of them in debate?

My instinct was to pull him aside and whisper. "This woman you have married is insane *rule 10* insane. You need to run far away from her!"

I can already see the negative effect on his life, the people they shun because of their "wickedness". The insistence on biblically inspired gender roles. (She several times when he wasn't in the room, complained about ways in which he didn't fit a traditional "male" stereotype.)

So if you were in this situation, what could you do for your friend?
Have you asked your friend if he now accepts Jesus as the Messiah? I see a hopeful conversion for him myself. Praise God! Who knows maybe the Holy Spirit will open your eyes too! Boy do I pray so, In Jesus name! Jesus is LORD!!

[CasaRojo]

In 2002 a friend of mine came to me and said that he was getting married. This woman was wacked in a little different way than the one you speak of but wacked nevertheless. I said "you're a frickin' idiot! I'm sorry man and I'll never say that again to you but... you're a frickin' idiot!". Then I told him good luck and that was that. Five years later he'd lost literally everything, his house, his vehicle, his retirement, anything of value in pawn.... sad but true and I never said 'told ya so'. This guy is no idiot either. He had one of the top ten inventions of 2005 or 2006 in the US... I have no idea what you do other than be supportive when needed. Say your piece and then be supportive.

[Beerina]

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!

...

What I'm wondering is how I can be a good influence on this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful man. Is it worthless to engage either of them in debate?


You: Well, if we don't tell them about Jesus, then they will have never had a chance to Make A Decision, and thus God won't throw them into Hell the way he doesn't throw people in China from the year 3000 BC into Hell.

[sphenisc]

Interesting.

Ask her what the best flavor of ice cream is. If she says "vanilla", tell her you think it's chocolate. See if she'll agree to disagree, or if she maintains it's an absolute truth that vanilla is better and that you simply choose to deny it.

If the former, it's a start, and shows that it's not really the "agree to disagree" concept she has a problem with.

If the latter, then there is no hope. Back away slowly and don't make any sudden movements.

However if you really think it's vanilla then you'll have proved her point.

[HansMustermann]

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to delude itself.

E.g., a good friend of mine married some years ago, and his wife is normal. But he did acquire a fundie mother-in-law in the process. One of her chief arguments (from what I hear) is that domestic disputes are God's punishment, and that my friend and his wife would be much happier and would have a much better marriage if they'd only go brain-dead about religion too.

Now here's the funny part, though:

A) My friend and his wife seem actually happy together, and they don't seem to actually have many arguments. I mean, nothing bigger than what colour the curtains should be.

B) The fundie mother-in-law, however, did have a crappy marriage and made her husband even unhappier than he made her. Better yet: I should say ex-husband, because she did leave him a couple of years ago.

So, you know, you'd think she wouldn't need that much to notice the huge difference between what she preaches and what the reality is. Needless to say, it seems to go right over her head.

So basically I wouldn't set my hopes too far about converting someone by pointing out any such discrepances. Whether between their fairy-tale-world and reality, or between their beliefs and the bible, or whatever.

[JetLeg]

I think it is important to ensure he has links outside that mindset, Cavemonster. I do not think that kind of influence works if it does not achieve a measure of isolation. So I think the best you can do is to take him out for beers or whatever you both enjoy: and avoid the subject but have some fun absent god from time to time

I think it was the best advice so far.

Make sure that he has enough things to be interested in, that he wouldn't fall into this mindset.

By the way, you can always give him some books to read. What about "The True believer" By Eric Hoffer? (Eh... I have not read it, but I have seen excrepts from it that have impressed me very much). It could be something like 'The end of faith' by Sam Harris.

It could also be a fiction book that has a good psychological profile of a woman that is similar to your friend's wife. Maybe, when such a profile is described in a book, he can relate it to his wife.

-----

I have another idea. Maybe this woman believes in something really really absurd \ immoral that your friend doesn't know about. Find out such a thing, research a bit her belief system. And then innocently ask her about this issue, just so your friends knows what she thinks. Maybe it might shock him a bit.

[JetLeg]

I recently visited a friend who I haven't seen in years. It turns out that he married the first woman he ever dated who happens to be a very extreme Christian.

Take Kurious Kathy and double it, you'll get a sense of this woman. At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!

About half of the words out of her mouth were along these lines.

Now I know I can't "convert" my friend away from these dangerous and unsound beliefs. I know I can't change his mind about his wife. What I'm wondering is how I can be a good influence on this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful man. Is it worthless to engage either of them in debate?

My instinct was to pull him aside and whisper. "This woman you have married is insane *rule 10* insane. You need to run far away from her!"

I can already see the negative effect on his life, the people they shun because of their "wickedness". The insistence on biblically inspired gender roles. (She several times when he wasn't in the room, complained about ways in which he didn't fit a traditional "male" stereotype.)

So if you were in this situation, what could you do for your friend?

If your friend is smart and rational (and nice), why do you think he marries this woman?

[Baby Nemesis]

I think it was the best advice so far.

Make sure that he has enough things to be interested in, that he wouldn't fall into this mindset.

By the way, you can always give him some books to read. What about "The True believer" By Eric Hoffer? (Eh... I have not read it, but I have seen excrepts from it that have impressed me very much). It could be something like 'The end of faith' by Sam Harris.

It could also be a fiction book that has a good psychological profile of a woman that is similar to your friend's wife. Maybe, when such a profile is described in a book, he can relate it to his wife.

Encouraging him to have a variety of interests sounds like a good idea, and should protect him from being sucked into the worldview too thoroughly.

What you don't want to do, though, is make him feel antagonistic towards his wife. Reading too much hostile literature might cause needless conflict. After all, what's more important here, that he becomes a good sceptic, or that he has a harmonious relationship with his wife? Conflict won't make either of them happy.

I guess my biggest fear is that constant exposure to "Any view contrary to this particular blend of Christianity is wrong and doesn't even need to be considered" will beat down the thoughtful, inquisitive part of my friend.

You could always encourage him to join an Internet forum where matters of religion are debated. As Fiona said, he'd probably need to be isolated from alternative points of view to get totally sucked into her worldview. ... Unless, of course, the alternative points of view are put offensively, so she just has to say, "See what I mean about those ... whatevers?" :p If you're going to recommend him books, that's what you need to be careful of as well. Recommending a hostile book might backfire, making him defensive and more entrenched in her worldview.

But when he tells you about the things she says, maybe you could ask questions that sound more curious than hostile, to raise doubts about it, which might keep him open-minded, even if it doesn't change her views at all.

[timhau]

Does this couple have kids?

[Ysidro]

A Christian who hasn't read their own Holy Book? Will wonders never cease? :rolleyes:

I say we find your friend a nice stripper to date. No really, why not? Also, we force the wife to actually READ THE DAMN BOOK SHE PROFESSES TO BE HOLY!!!!!!! :flamed:

[Baby Nemesis]

Does this couple have kids?

A split-up would certainly be a lot less painful if they didn't. But even if they don't now, if their marriage was to become much more conflictual, it would probably take time for it to split, by which time, they might have.

Or if they didn't, more conflict would be caused if they'd ended up by then with opposing ideas of what kind of belief system the child ought to grow up influenced by. That would be a problem if each felt strongly.

Still, given that the man's read people like Dawkins and still apparently risks being sucked into her very exclusivist worldview, chances are that that wouldn't happen. Too much pushing to change his worldview might instead risk the friendship between Cavemonster and this man. After all, his friend and her wife have started "shunning" others. The influence would need to be subtle, probably aimed at just modifying the worldviews of both of them, rather than at causing radical change in either of them.

[Cavemonster]

I'd just like to be a good influence. I wouldn't dream of ever thinking of breaking up a marriage, or that any amount of debate could convert her into a skeptic.

She's apparently a fairly recent convert (about a year or so) so the fervor could die down, who knows. I really do believe it isn't my place to "change" either of them to the "right" way of thinking, that's what I dislike about that kind of faith after all. I guess I'm just a bit worried.

As much time as I may spend reading and thinking about arguments for a rational view of the world, when she started slamming other religions and proclaiming Christ is the only way, my instinct was not to argue, but to try to understand where her faith came from. I don't like to engage people starting with the presumption that they're wrong and I have to change them. I guess what truly bugged me was how single tracked she was. She may have been talking about fashion choices, or environmentalism for all it was worth. What bugged me was that she spent more time pressing the values of a book she hasn't read than talking about anything else.

[Egg]

I'd just like to be a good influence. I wouldn't dream of ever thinking of breaking up a marriage, or that any amount of debate could convert her into a skeptic.

She's apparently a fairly recent convert (about a year or so) so the fervor could die down, who knows. I really do believe it isn't my place to "change" either of them to the "right" way of thinking, that's what I dislike about that kind of faith after all. I guess I'm just a bit worried.

As much time as I may spend reading and thinking about arguments for a rational view of the world, when she started slamming other religions and proclaiming Christ is the only way, my instinct was not to argue, but to try to understand where her faith came from. I don't like to engage people starting with the presumption that they're wrong and I have to change them. I guess what truly bugged me was how single tracked she was. She may have been talking about fashion choices, or environmentalism for all it was worth. What bugged me was that she spent more time pressing the values of a book she hasn't read than talking about anything else.
That seems like a sensible approach to me. It sounds like it would be all too easy to be picking holes in her theology, but I suspect it would be more likely to cause a rift than to do any good. Such challenges may as well be coming from "Satan" if it's coming from a non-Christian and you'd just be viewed as a bad influence.

I think if you want to keep your friendship you might have to bear with her fervour for a while. You may find that actually it's other Christians who will set her straight on much of this stuff. Perhaps she could do with a good bit of missionary work to get it out of her system.

My advice would be to try to steer clear of the religious discussions and just try to have fun together - play games, go to the movies and talk about other things. From what you describe, it's probably far too easy to get on the "shun" list right now.

[Baby Nemesis]

I wonder if it's your friend's church that could be putting unhealthy ideas in their heads, Cavemonster. It might be worth suggesting to your friend that it might be worth thinking about whether the church they go to is really healthy, or whether it might be worth changing churches. There's an article about abusive churches (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html) that says:

... Another means of control is isolation. Abusive churches may cut off contact between a new member and his family, friends, and anyone else not associated with the church. ...

Let us now take a look at the fifth characteristic: abusive churches usually denounce all other Christian churches. They see themselves as spiritually elite. They feel that they alone have the truth and all other churches are corrupt. Therefore, they do not associate with other Christian churches. They often refer to themselves as some special group such as, "God's Green Berets," "The faithful remnant," or "God's end-time army." There is a sense of pride in
abusive churches because members feel they have a special relationship with God and His movement in the world. In his book Churches That Abuse, Dr. Ron Enroth quotes a former member of one such group who states, "Although we didn't come right out and say it, in our innermost hearts we really felt that there was no place in the world like our assembly. We thought the rest of Christianity was out to lunch." ...

[Zim]

I equate Christianity to Psychosis, All Religion for that matter, Psychosis means your a danger to yourself and others, I know cause I had "Doctors" telling me I'm Psychotic for years (Christian Doctors) My Grandma is this woman from what I've read.
He Married a younger version of my Grandma, People who are stooped in religious belief are more dangerous then a drunk Driver in my opinion, They Ruin the lives of everyone around them with no hesitation or guilt, Much less Remorse.
I'd say your completely justified in your concern for your old friend, even as much as your worry that he may be cut off to the outside world making it worse, It's called Brainwashing! He has a form of Stockholm Syndrome in my non professional opinion, My Friend Mike has it bad, his Ex wife brainwashed him into thinking he's a worthless looser who can't do anything right and can't live up to her expectations as a man. This sounds very similar to me, Mike was left in the Nevada National Forest in a bus for 10 months while his wife was in California divorcing him without him knowing, she left him in the middle of nowhere with nothing in the end, and he had to hitch hike back to L.A. from literally the middle of nowhere (no running water for 60 miles in all directions) So I am going to go out on a limb here and agree that your friend is in a seriously bad situation, The people he will alienate in the course of pleasing his wife will ruin what ever sort of life he may want to salvage when he (we can only hope) wises up and splits. I feel for you and your situation.
I had a girlfriend get brainwashed by some room mates she lived with, they wanted her to be their 3 way sex partner so they drugged her up and convinced her to break up with me and cut off all ties. I didn't let her go, and I don't think you should let him go either, at the very least try to talk to him about it in a secure open place where she isn't around, I had to stop my Ex on her way to work and force her to talk to me in a public park to even get to find out why she dumped me, then when I got her side of the story I told her she'd been brainwashed by those people and to get away from them, it took a week before she saw it was true and I'll never forget her breakdown while trying to apologize to me. So.. before I blather off on some Aspergers rant.

[Zim]

And this Psycho, kathy, or whatever you call yourself, we in the world of reality have a word for people like you, We call your sort Lemmings!

[Zim]

for a humorous suggestion, I suggest next time your in their company, and she starts in about her imaginary friend, Start talking about your imaginary friend Sid or Fritz, choose whatever name you want! Be polite and say that your imaginary friend disagrees with hers and to let them settle their differences!

[Madalch]

I've been known to tell fundamentalist friends, "If you do not wish to show any respect for the religious beliefs of other people, then you cannot expect anyone else to respect yours."

[Thunder]

Take Kurious Kathy and double it, you'll get a sense of this woman. At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Thats funny..I think its the only thing that has kept us sane.

[Miss_Kitt]

And this Psycho, kathy, or whatever you call yourself, we in the world of reality have a word for people like you, We call your sort Lemmings!

Zim -- I recommend you be more respectful of other posters, even -- perhaps especially -- those you disagree with. It will make others take your arguments more seriously. Learning to spell, punctuate, capitalize correctly, and how to construct a paragraph will also encourage others to assess your arguments. Getting a reputation for Wall O' Posts that are unreadable will get your input skipped, and it sounds like you would like to be part of the conversation.

Welcome to the Forum, and I hope to hear your (somewhat more organized) thoughts on a number of subjects.

Yours in Atheism, Miss Kitt

ETA -- And to the OP question: Hang in there; stay in touch; and hope for the best. I've had a dear friend sucked into the Mormon church twice over the last 20 years, but he has emerged both times with a better understanding of his own psychology. Just stay in touch, in case the Missus is a member of one of those cult-like churches that try to isolate their members from anyone in the outside world.

Good luck to you, and them!

[MattusMaximus]

Stone her.

And then pass the bong around to room to make sure everyone else gets a hit :D

Seriously, I would be tempted to ask her if she's so high on getting to see Jesus, why doesn't she just kill herself and get on the fast track? But then, I can be a real jerk that way.

ETA: Miss_Kitt's advice is good.

[Zim]

I've obviously been singled out, so incoming bad grammar and sentence construction for you. I am autistic, I was tossed out of school in the 9th grade because they didn't have programs for autistic kids and they weren't able to tolerate or teach me like they do every other kid, Blind kids had it easier, at least they had books made for them so they could learn... I'm sorry if you think I disrespected kathy. I don't make excuses as much as I offer explanations. I use spell check, I use paragraphs rather then a sentence with 2 inches of blank space between the next one, I was taught to do that in school, So tell my language Art's teacher he taught me wrong, cause I Don't care what you think about my grammar, I come to this web site to learn about reality and science, not to give you some body to pick on, if it is the nature of this web site to act like jerks and pick on people for trying to communicate beyond their mental range of skill, then you have succeeded.
I thought from what I had learned about Mr. James Randi that this was a place for people to learn and teach and cooperate, but so far every time I try to be a part of the cooperation I get ridiculed, put down and shame cast upon me for my lack of grammar skills and sentence construction that I never achieved because I was cheated out of a peasants education, Because I was borne different I get to put up with a minimal understanding of my surroundings and when I try to understand it I get met with this BS of grammar and sentence construction ridicule and told that I'm not respecting others because I return a crackpot statement with a realistic one, if my contradicting kathy is considered disrespect, then I guess I need to delete my Websters Dictionary link and stop using Wikipedia because it is all Bad information. I Suppose I should refer to the Urban Dictionary for my facts from now on? Oh well, I came to the JREF to learn and all I've gotten so far is negativity belittling and an overall lack of any remote understanding. So I conclude that I've been wasting my time in thinking there is any place for an autistic person to relate to others in a social manner, and I will remove myself from this community of AOL and yahoo Jerry Springer style bullies of the internet, All you've proven to me is that Christian Atheism Pagan all behave the same, there is no difference only different out look, Thank you James Randi for being you and thank you to those who know I'm not talking about them!
I'll go cut myself off from the outside world again and leave you Poor Grammar devoted people in peace from my attempts to relate to the so called Critical Thinking world aka another web page full of power trippers.

[timhau]

I've obviously been singled out

If by 'singled out' you mean 'given friendly advice' then yes, you have indeed been singled out.

[MIKILLINI]

[QUOTE=Zim;4607619 I'll go cut myself off from the outside world again and leave you Poor Grammar devoted people in peace from my attempts to relate to the so called Critical Thinking world aka another web page full of power trippers.[/QUOTE]

Don't get to frustrated here, you're being given constructive criticism that is meant to help you, not demean you.
People can be very understanding here and I myself encourage you to not give up on this forum, just give us a chance. By the way, welcome to the forum.:)

[YeahDude]

If by 'singled out' you mean 'given friendly advice' then yes, you have indeed been singled out.

I almost spit my coffee out... ha.

To The OP, As someone who once tried brute force to show a friend what his woman was like.... I would like to say I now know to never do that again. I am 29 and haven't talked to him since then, 10 years ago! A gentle nudge might get the ol' hamster wheel moving. Unless you are willing to lose a friend that is all you can really do.

[Wildy]

If your friend is smart and rational (and nice), why do you think he marries this woman?

Because he, like many other men before him, was using his other brain when he made that decision.

[Baby Nemesis]

I've obviously been singled out, so incoming bad grammar and sentence construction for you. I am autistic, I was tossed out of school in the 9th grade because they didn't have programs for autistic kids and they weren't able to tolerate or teach me like they do every other kid, Blind kids had it easier, at least they had books made for them so they could learn... I'm sorry if you think I disrespected kathy. I don't make excuses as much as I offer explanations. I use spell check, I use paragraphs rather then a sentence with 2 inches of blank space between the next one, I was taught to do that in school, So tell my language Art's teacher he taught me wrong, cause I Don't care what you think about my grammar, I come to this web site to learn about reality and science, not to give you some body to pick on, if it is the nature of this web site to act like jerks and pick on people for trying to communicate beyond their mental range of skill, then you have succeeded.
I thought from what I had learned about Mr. James Randi that this was a place for people to learn and teach and cooperate, but so far every time I try to be a part of the cooperation I get ridiculed, put down and shame cast upon me for my lack of grammar skills and sentence construction that I never achieved because I was cheated out of a peasants education, Because I was borne different I get to put up with a minimal understanding of my surroundings and when I try to understand it I get met with this BS of grammar and sentence construction ridicule and told that I'm not respecting others because I return a crackpot statement with a realistic one, if my contradicting kathy is considered disrespect, then I guess I need to delete my Websters Dictionary link and stop using Wikipedia because it is all Bad information. I Suppose I should refer to the Urban Dictionary for my facts from now on? Oh well, I came to the JREF to learn and all I've gotten so far is negativity belittling and an overall lack of any remote understanding. So I conclude that I've been wasting my time in thinking there is any place for an autistic person to relate to others in a social manner, and I will remove myself from this community of AOL and yahoo Jerry Springer style bullies of the internet, All you've proven to me is that Christian Atheism Pagan all behave the same, there is no difference only different out look, Thank you James Randi for being you and thank you to those who know I'm not talking about them!
I'll go cut myself off from the outside world again and leave you Poor Grammar devoted people in peace from my attempts to relate to the so called Critical Thinking world aka another web page full of power trippers.

The criticism did sound a bit harsh in context, since it ignored the heartfelt substance of what you said. But perhaps she didn't read everything you said, but just what you said about Kathy, and the beginning of your post that said you equate religion as a whole to psychosis, and seemed to be exaggerating the dangers of it. At first glance, that made you look like the kind of bigoted rabid Atheist who goes onto forums to demean religious people. Reading the rest of what you said made it clear your post wasn't like that at all. Perhaps she was too harsh in her criticism and only focused on grammar because she didn't read much of it. I think she's the kind of person who'll apologise if she realises her mistake, and that you were discussing serious things that needed to be treated with sensitivity and not just ignored as if grammar was far more important.

But try to get a more balanced view of religion, and try not to jump to hasty conclusions that people are "psychos" or things like that, or this kind of thing might happen again. Your experiences of a few dangerous religious people doesn't mean every religious person is a danger.

[JetLeg]

I think that you can try to give your friend "The true believer" by Eric Hoffer. Maybe he will see then what this woman is like.

[six7s]

I've obviously been singled outIf the cap fits...

I use paragraphs rather then a sentence with 2 inches of blank space between the next oneSerious questions:

Do you acknowledge that in communication, responsibility for comprehension rests with the sender (not the recipient)
the benefit of 'extra' white space is increased comprehension
the cost of 'extra' white space - on screen - is zip, nada, nothing

TYIA :)

[dann]

But the absolute and repeated condemnation of what goes against her faith seems to have some strong consequences. She seemed on the verge of leaving her job over the "wickedness" of her co-workers, which after a bit of pressing, seems to mean their non Christianness. She's very free with her condemnation of any other way of looking at the world. The "selfishness" of Buddhism came up a few times, the "perversion" of Catholicism. This isn't just a few offhand comments, this is a good part of her conversation.

They very well may have a great harmony between them, but in many ways she seems to smother many of their connections to the outside world.

Consider the possibility that the problem isn't one of religion. Your friend may be married to a psychopath, who uses religion as an excuse for isolating him from others. A real friend would tell him how he felt about the woman.
Recommended reading: Susan Forward's (http://www.susanforward.com/author.htm) Emotional Blackmail and Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them (the majority of psychopaths are men; just reverse the gender).

[Baby Nemesis]

Consider the possibility that the problem isn't one of religion. Your friend may be married to a psychopath, who uses religion as an excuse for isolating him from others. A real friend would tell him how he felt about the woman.
Recommended reading: Susan Forward's (http://www.susanforward.com/author.htm) Emotional Blackmail and Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them (the majority of psychopaths are men; just reverse the gender).

Psychopath might be a bit of a hasty suggested diagnosis based simply on the fact that she wants to isolate him from others, and that she's condemning. But maybe he knows more about her that fits. Here's something that might help him clarify whether the book's worth looking into for him.

From an Amazon review of that book: (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Hate-Women-Love-Them/dp/0553381415)

You must definitely buy this book if...,
... your partner always blames you for everything that goes wrong in your relationship - including his infidelities; he plays Gaslight-type mind games; he tries to isolate you from your friends and family; you have to "rehearse" everything you need to say to him carefully to try to avoid "setting him off"; you excuse the inexcusable; he is entitled to be upset by what you say or do, but you have no such reciprocal rights; you want to raise an issue of his
bad behaviour and end up having to apologise to him; and most telling of all, if everyone who knows him superficially tells you how charming he is and how lucky you are, and you can't understand why you are so miserable!

One testimonial says the book's for "women who are in relationships with angry, intimidating, and controlling men."

Nothing in this thread so far has clearly indicated that that fits. But who knows.

[A Christian Sceptic]

My instinct was to pull him aside and whisper. "This woman you have married is insane *rule 10* insane. You need to run far away from her!"


<sarcasm>I vote for this! Do it before they start shunning you.</sarcasm>

[dann]

One testimonial says the book's for "women who are in relationships with angry, intimidating, and controlling men."

Nothing in this thread so far has clearly indicated that that fits. But who knows.

Nothing?!
But the absolute and repeated condemnation of what goes against her faith seems to have some strong consequences. She seemed on the verge of leaving her job over the "wickedness" of her co-workers, which after a bit of pressing, seems to mean their non Christianness. She's very free with her condemnation of any other way of looking at the world. The "selfishness" of Buddhism came up a few times, the "perversion" of Catholicism. This isn't just a few offhand comments, this is a good part of her conversation.

They very well may have a great harmony between them, but in many ways she seems to smother many of their connections to the outside world.

[Baby Nemesis]

Nothing?!

That's why I said clearly indicated. Those things might have been indicative of anger, but they might not have. Cavemonster's the only one who can judge that. Her almost leaving her job, for instance, might be motivated by church-fuelled distress rather than anger. Her constant condemnation of other religions could have been motivated by church-infused horror rather than anger, or pride at thinking she's one of the elite. Her attempts to isolate her husband might be motivated by misguided obedience to her church that tells her the outside world is bad and it should be shunned. But Cavemonster will probably have more of an idea than us. If the book seems to speak to their situation, maybe he can give it a read.

[dann]

A test:
Emotional Abuse Checklist (http://thingsarelookinup.com/Abuse/test.shtml)
The best thing about it is that it makes you think about all aspects of the relationship you're in.

[Beerina]

I recently visited a friend who I haven't seen in years. It turns out that he married the first woman he ever dated who happens to be a very extreme Christian.

Take Kurious Kathy and double it, you'll get a sense of this woman. At dinner, after I mentioned I was raised Jewish, she literally waved a bible in my face and twice told me "How sad and terrible" it was that "The Jews" refuse to accept Jesus.

Me:I have a niece and a nephew.
Her: Well, you have to tell them about Jesus.
Me: They're smart kids, they can figure out their own path.
Her: But what if they die tomorrow? There's no time! They need to be washed in His blood!


As a male I feel ashamed that men invented this crap so they could dominate other men and thus be more likely to get with the ladies.

On the other hand, women evolved (as did men to a certain extent) to find success sexy in and of itself. We're all pathetic and shallow, regardless of the fancy nobility we build for ourselves in our own mental models of reality.

[Baby Nemesis]

A test:
Emotional Abuse Checklist (http://thingsarelookinup.com/Abuse/test.shtml)
The best thing about it is that it makes you think about all aspects of the relationship you're in.

I like that checklist - it's very detailed.

[Belz...]

Can I save my friend from Jesus?

Impossible. Jesus is like a super-zombie-leech. Once it latches on...

[Beerina]

Look, it's called a mace of disruption, and a critical hit forces the undead to make a save or die.

All melee should have one (or two, if two weapon fighting) in their golf bag.

When He was incorporeal, "ghost touch" weaponry will fit a similar role.

[Belz...]

Unfortunately this particular zombie is immune to turning. Silly Jesus.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Don't say anything. Never, ever, ever get between a husband and a wife. As a matter of fact, never, ever, ever get between SOs, boyfriend/ girlfriend, fiancée/fiancé, parents and kids, siblings, friends, relatives, whatever the relationship is.

If your friend is made to choose between hanging out with you and his wife, guess what he'll choose. That's right.

And that's the way it should be. Your spouse is way more important than your friend, especially not even a very close one.

Speaking as a woman, I'd choose my husband over everyone but my own flesh and blood. A casual boyfriend, though, that's another story.

Then it's the reverse: your friend is always more important.

[quarky]

You could try praying to Jesus.
Ask Jesus to save your friend from Jesus.

It would be very Jesusy to do this, and it might just work.

[slingblade]

You must definitely buy this book if...,
... your partner always blames you for everything that goes wrong in your relationship - including his infidelities; he plays Gaslight-type mind games; he tries to isolate you from your friends and family; you have to "rehearse" everything you need to say to him carefully to try to avoid "setting him off"; you excuse the inexcusable; he is entitled to be upset by what you say or do, but you have no such reciprocal rights; you want to raise an issue of his bad behaviour and end up having to apologise to him; and most telling of all, if everyone who knows him superficially tells you how charming he is and how lucky you are, and you can't understand why you are so miserable!


Wow. I had no idea she knew my ex-husband, nor that she had observed my first marriage so carefully. Especially that last, "most telling of all." That's all I ever heard, and I wanted to choke everyone who said it to me.

[kurious_kathy]

And this Psycho, kathy, or whatever you call yourself, we in the world of reality have a word for people like you, We call your sort Lemmings!

Thant's funny I think of myself as a Jesus person. I am spiritually alive! You may want to try Jesus sometime and see what you are missing? He truly is the way, truth, and light of the world!

[MIKILLINI]

Thant's funny I think of myself as a Jesus person. I am spiritually alive! You may want to try Jesus sometime and see what you are missing? He truly is the way, truth, and light of the world!

:faint: And the brainwashed programming is still functioning in your non-thinking world.