Grad School?

[vitamin]

During my high school and college days, I wanted nothing more than for my schooling to be over. Class and homework were far less important than parties and chics.

But after having been out of school for about 5 years, I discovered a strong desire to pursue education (thanks in large part to the JREF). The problem is that my undergrad performance is less than stellar.

Have any of you had any experience recovering from an unimpressive undergrad and getting into a decent grad school?

[quixotecoyote]

During my high school and college days, I wanted nothing more than for my schooling to be over. Class and homework were far less important than parties and chics.

But after having been out of school for about 5 years, I discovered a strong desire to pursue education (thanks in large part to the JREF). The problem is that my undergrad performance is less than stellar.

Have any of you had any experience recovering from an unimpressive undergrad and getting into a decent grad school?

I networked my way in. Maybe you should try to reconnect with college friends who went to grad school.

[malbui]

I'm busily doing a part-time PhD, fully seventeen years after completing my MSc. With that kind of timelapse, the lack of impressiveness of my previous academic career is fortunately far less significant than the professional experience I've gained in so many years at the coalface. So much so that I'm getting roped in to teach more and more classes where my fund of war stories is deemed more interesting than a couple of hours of theory.

[ponderingturtle]

My plan is to try to take some non matriculated grad courses first, then apply based on how well I have done already at the school in question.

[truethat]

You might be interested in the MALS program at graduate school. They tend to appreciate students who have been out of school for a while and who have returned.

Here's a description

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Liberal_Arts

This was my degree.

[madurobob]

I networked my way in. Maybe you should try to reconnect with college friends who went to grad school.

Ditto. My undergrad work was minimal necessary to get by while still maintaining an adequate buzz. But, once in the workforce I woke up, applied myself and impressed a few people. A letter or two from trusted alumni go a long way to helping a grad school decide you might be an acceptable risk.

You can also, as already pointed out, take a few stand-alone courses in the field you wish to pursue. Do well, show an aptitude and a willingness to work hard and that will help sway the admissions folks.

Aren't there also various grad school aptitude tests depending on your area of study? Take a prep class, study hard and do well on one of those and doors may open.

[vitamin]

Here's a second layer to my problem:

I'm thinking about pursuing a degree in religion and would like to pad my grad school application with some field experience. The problem is that I'm not a member of the faithful and finding any kind of scholarly work that exists outside of the church is tricky (if not completely impossible).

Any ideas/suggestions would be terribly helpful.

[drkitten]

Here's a second layer to my problem:

I'm thinking about pursuing a degree in religion and would like to pad my grad school application with some field experience. The problem is that I'm not a member of the faithful and finding any kind of scholarly work that exists outside of the church is tricky (if not completely impossible).

Any ideas/suggestions would be terribly helpful.

Write. Write write write write write. Head to the library, do some research, write something up for a conference, and submit/present it. Most conferences are happy to accept manuscripts from "independent scholars."

Bonus points if you can get into a journal instead of a "mere" conference.

That's what grad school is all about anyway. Write write write write write. If you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the committee that you already have the necessary basic scholarly skills, they'll be more likely to accept you. Think of it as a football combine; the way to persuade the team that you are good enough to play for them is by showing them that you already know how to play the game.

[themusicteacher]

Grad schools are also interested in life experience. If what you've done since you left undergrad is impressive and worthwhile, they'll probably overlook some bad grades. Also, while all programs are not equal, there are a lot of good programs out there so don't think that you have to get into a "name" school or whatever. Do some research and find programs that may not get much press but do have good teachers, good students, good facilities and maybe are having to work harder to get students. It may be easier to get accepted and to get positions like GA/TA's or fellowships.

[blutoski]

You could consider taking some undergraduate credits.

The two benefits are that you would have demonstrated that you can get better grades now, and also you would be more up-to-date in the field.

This is probably more relevant for technical or science applicants.

[bpesta22]

I would be forgiving of a less than stellar gpa earned several years ago if the applicant had shown he'd grown up (make up some excuse for not doing better) and had high GRE scores.

In other words, do well on the GRE and your sins may be forgiven.

[Jeff Corey]

The last I saw, the GREs didn't predict a lot. I'm not complaining though, those and a high score on the Miller Analogies got me into grad schul.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/GRE.study.ssl.html

[bpesta22]

The last I saw, the GREs didn't predict a lot. I'm not complaining though, those and a high score on the Miller Analogies got me into grad schul.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/GRE.study.ssl.html

I got a lotta data on the GMAT which is essentially the same test. There's a massive literature on it showing it predicts grades about .50. That's pretty close to what I get with my data (though the 12 minute Wonderlic predicts almost as well, and judging line length predicts in the .30s). All this crap just measures g of course.

Sorry for the derail.

[bpesta22]

Lol, you cited Sternberg's study-- sorry, but what a weenie. The GRE doesn't predict which of his 9 graduate students do best at YALE and he wonders why. I wonder how an editor of that journal can get crap like that published in that journal.

I would say though, if you're applying to a Yale-like program, the GRE won't predict success, but don't bother applying unless you're in the 95% or so.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4TXDXBK-4&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4f45cca7c844fc93152280fced2c854e

[Jeff Corey]

Right, the truncated range problem. http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/stat/7/i45.gif

[Lilith]

The last I saw, the GREs didn't predict a lot. I'm not complaining though, those and a high score on the Miller Analogies got me into grad schul.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/GRE.study.ssl.html

Regardless - if you have a good GRE score, it could help offset the poor undergrad record.

More (or at least as) importantly, if you get a research assistant position in ANY lab in the field of your choice, with good recommendations from the PI in charge of the lab, this will give you an edge in applying for grad school.

[bpesta22]

Right, the truncated range problem. http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/stat/7/i45.gif

That graph looks very Freudian, and coming from a behaviorist too!

[Tiktaalik]

Yeah, I had a mediocre undergrad GPA, less than a B, but got into grad school no problem 2 years later. It was contingent on GREs & based mostly on an interview with the research coordinator for the project I was interested in. I did way better in grad school, was way more interested, had a much closer & better relationship with the profs, etc. - I actually really enjoyed it. Way different from undergrad...

[mhaze]

During my high school and college days, I wanted nothing more than for my schooling to be over. Class and homework were far less important than parties and chics.

But after having been out of school for about 5 years, I discovered a strong desire to pursue education (thanks in large part to the JREF). The problem is that my undergrad performance is less than stellar.

Have any of you had any experience recovering from an unimpressive undergrad and getting into a decent grad school?A lot depends on the field that interests you.

One thing to do is pick the field and school you want, then go there and read every thesis or dissertation done in the last couple of years. Make notes and commit key points to memory. Then go talk to one or several of the profs who seem to be of interest.

[ponderingturtle]

A lot depends on the field that interests you.

One thing to do is pick the field and school you want, then go there and read every thesis or dissertation done in the last couple of years. Make notes and commit key points to memory. Then go talk to one or several of the profs who seem to be of interest.

How does this change if you are going there to learn skill to apply in business as opposed to become an academic? I am looking at going from my recently completed BA in physics(I dropped out for 6 years a semester before graduating). And I want to go to school for industrial automation. I don't see that being published or reading the dissertations is necessarily a route I want to take.

My girlfriend on the other hand wants to be an academic and is looking for Phd programs in psychology or neuroscience.

[LightinDarkness]

I think there is a large difference between "professional" graduate programs and "academic" graduate programs. I got to experience both because in my field (Public Administration), the masters level is largely practitioner/professional training and the PhD level is completely academic - even though Public Administration is one of the rare fields where you almost have to have a master's degree to get into a PhD program (you can't just go straight from undergrad to the academic PhD in most cases).

Getting into a professional graduate (MBA, MPA, and others) program has a completely different emphasis than a academic one - while people care about your undergraduate GPA and GRE scores more emphasis is put on work or internship experience and looking for leadership characteristics that make you a good candidate to excel in that profession. Academic programs care only about your ability to do research and how that fits with faculty interests, and your academic scores next.

Its going to be more difficult to spin a lackluster undergraduate record into a (highly ranked) academic graduate school program, unless your work experience can specifically inform your or a faculty members research interests. In a professional program, years of appropriate work experience can be a positive thing and while it won't erase the undergraduate record it will lessen the impact.

[LightinDarkness]

You might be interested in the MALS program at graduate school. They tend to appreciate students who have been out of school for a while and who have returned.

Here's a description

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Liberal_Arts

This was my degree.

Have you found that the MALS has actually helped you get a job? I've seen a lot of schools with these recently and they seem to major money makers (limited/no funding, big red flag in graduate degrees although I know this depends on the school) - but since its a liberal arts degree, its unclear that there is any way you can get a job with it.

I ask because when I get done with my PhD I want to do a MALS in Religious Studies or MA in Religious Studies as its always something that I wanted to study for fun but haven't bothered with since it doesn't pay anything. I never looked at the MALS as anything but that extra degree for people like me who just want to study something different than what they get paid to do, but maybe I'm wrong...

[ponderingturtle]

I think there is a large difference between "professional" graduate programs and "academic" graduate programs.

Would technical feilds like engineering be a mix of both?

[drkitten]

Would technical feilds like engineering be a mix of both?

In my experience, the M.S and Ph.D. are academic degrees, the M.Eng. and D.Eng. are professional degrees. Depending upon which you want, you will apply to different programs or even different schools.

There's a similar difference between an Ed.D. and a Ph.D. in education, or for that matter, between the M.D. and the Ph.D. that you can often get at the same medical schools.

[LightinDarkness]

Would technical feilds like engineering be a mix of both?

From what I know through friends in engineering programs I would agree with drkitten - yes, engineering is a mix of both and you can usually tell by the degree offered. Generally, a MS (and always the PhD) will be sheer academic.

However, some schools stick to certain degree naming conventions so the degree type alone may not be enough to tell. Usually in that case the best way to tell is either looking at their website (if they stress practical training its practitioner, if they stress research only its academia) or calling the graduate program director and asking about their focus.

There are also a few that try and balance both - in my case at the master's level the faculty were expected to advise practitioners and keep up all the hallmarks of what you would expect at a research intensive program (numerous publications, low teaching loads, etc.). All of the faculty also had several years of practitioner experience before they went into doctoral programs. If your on the fence about which way to want to go upon graduation, finding one of those is always a good idea (although it is admittedly hard to find one that balances both sides WELL).

[truethat]

Have you found that the MALS has actually helped you get a job? I've seen a lot of schools with these recently and they seem to major money makers (limited/no funding, big red flag in graduate degrees although I know this depends on the school) - but since its a liberal arts degree, its unclear that there is any way you can get a job with it.

I ask because when I get done with my PhD I want to do a MALS in Religious Studies or MA in Religious Studies as its always something that I wanted to study for fun but haven't bothered with since it doesn't pay anything. I never looked at the MALS as anything but that extra degree for people like me who just want to study something different than what they get paid to do, but maybe I'm wrong...

If you are going for your PhD anyway I'd just focus your content in MALS in a religious, theology, mythology bent and be done with it.

It is hard to assess job availability. I've gotten an adjunct position but that is a stretch. But since teaching budgets have been sucked dry, I am lucky to have that.

[Sefarst]

I will be starting law school in the fall and am coming straight out of my undergrad. I don't know how MBA, Med, and PhD programs do it, but law schools only care about your GPA if you recently got out of school. The longer you have been out of college, the more forgiving they are regarding your GPA (consider that Obama supposedly didn't graduate with honors from Columbia but still got into Harvard five years later).

The best indicator in your case will be work experience. You don't want the work experience to just be some hourly temp job, but actual career work experience. If you have ever done Teach for America, the Peace Corp, or other forms of social activism, that's a big plus as well.

What caliber of school are you looking for? There are degrees you can get through internet courses that you can work for from home. Are you looking at just a part-time program or do you want total immersion?

[shuize]

I will be starting law school in the fall and am coming straight out of my undergrad...


You poor bastard.

[Sefarst]

You poor bastard.

Have you tried it? Was it that bad?

[Iconoclast08]

I got a lotta data on the GMAT which is essentially the same test. There's a massive literature on it showing it predicts grades about .50. That's pretty close to what I get with my data (though the 12 minute Wonderlic predicts almost as well, and judging line length predicts in the .30s). All this crap just measures g of course.

Sorry for the derail.

Actually, I think there is also a literature showing that the GRE subject test is superior to the GRE General in predicting grad school success as measured by grades/GPA.

And careful about reifying g... :mad::)

Gould mentioned correlating galactic distances, the price of cheese, his age, and the population of Mexico to yield a strong principal component.

Let's call that component "Pigasus."

[shuize]

Have you tried it? Was it that bad?


Sorry for the long delay. Yes. I went through law school in the States, passed the bar and worked as an attorney for several years.

I hated law school. Although I knew a few odd birds who claimed to enjoy it. Of those I stayed in touch with who claimed to like it both said they hated the practice of law.

Myself, I didn't mind the practice of law so much but, then again, I was happy to move on to other things when the opportunity presented itself. In addition, unlike many of my classmates, I usually only worked 50 ~ 60 hour weeks back then.

Have fun.

[shuize]

While looking up another older post, I came across this thread. How was the first semester of law school?

[daenku32]

And how do you pay for this kind of deal? I've been doing work and school at the same time for my BS, and I don't know if I want to try to manage a MS the same way. Maybe the MS will have to way until the kids themselves get through college.

[shadron]

One of my daughters decided to go back to school, after earning about 15 hours with a GPA of 1.8 about five years ago. The school require her to take the first semester without declaring a goal, and allowed her to have the usual loans, subject to raising her GPA. Getting As and Bs allowed her to fully join in at the end of that semester, and her loans became permanent after a second gaining semester.

The moral is to establish a trend. If you do, then the school will almost certainly work with you. The cliche that "Nothing succeeds like success" has at least that much truth within it.

I also support DrKitten's advice. Anything that shows a will to succeed in studies will quickly bring them onto your side. (If it doesn't, find another school. Wasamatawhit U doesn't have that many extensions that you cannot avoid them if you try. :) )

[HumanityBlues]

I went to law school, so perhaps this is going to be a little biased, as we tend to be negative.

If you want an advanced degree, don't just get one simply for the sake of learning. That's too much money for something you can do on your own. (Although, I know in Europe the way education is paid for is different, so if you're not American, my mistake).

Here would be my advice. Have a clear idea of the kind of program you want to do, and what kind of career you want after you are done.

Believe me, you aren't the first to **** up in college. I just had a friend get into Grad School for Occupational Therapy. He had terrible grades in undergrad and was a general studies major. I also have another friend who just got into grad school for teaching at a good school. She also had bad grades.

Honestly, the length of time since you last went to college can actually be a benefit because you're so far removed from it. Unlike law school, where it is mostly about your numbers, I think most grad schools are more holistic in their application process. But doing well on your GREs (if applicable) would be a huuuuuuge benefit. Take as many practice exams as you can and don't take it until you are ready.

[shuize]

The more I hear about how much law school tuition has increased since I attended (approx. 100%) and how terrible the legal market is now (very bad) the more I think law school is a bad deal.