The End of Christianity

[Fnord]

A Newsweek article, recently posted on MSN, includes this quote by R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

"A remarkable culture-shift has taken place around us. The most basic contours of American culture have been radically altered. The so-called Judeo-Christian consensus of the last millennium has given way to a post-modern, post-Christian, post-Western cultural crisis which threatens the very heart of our culture. Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society,"

> LINK TO ARTICLE (http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002) <

Discuss...

[Safe-Keeper]

I loved the illustration. I instantly thought of a snake or some sort of projectile launcher aiming a strike at the cross in the background:D.

On the first paragraph, which discusses the doubling of nonreligious people admitting to being so in a survey, could it be that the number of atheists hasn't increased, but that the atheist publicity campaigns in the States, to the style of "don't believe in God? You're not alone" are making more atheists "come out of the closet"?

"That really hit me hard," he told me last week. "The Northwest was never as religious, never as congregationalized, as the Northeast, which was the foundation, the home base, of American religion (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=Religion). To lose New England struck me as momentous." Turning the report over in his mind, Mohler posted a despairing online column on the eve of Holy Week lamenting the decline—and, by implication, the imminent fall—of an America shaped and suffused by Christianity (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=Christianity). "Oh, boo-hoo. Christians dominate America and will continue to do so for many years still, I believe.

[kurious_kathy]

Christianity will never die as Christ is not dead!

Luke 21: 32-34 says 32"I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.

[Lisa Simpson]

Of course Christ isn't dead...he's a zombie.

[Ixion]

The body of christ, given for you :eek:

[Cavemonster]

A mind-reading magical, undead, split-personality, 2000 year old carpenter. Who grants wishes.

[Steelmage]

Of course Christ isn't dead...he's a zombie.

Oh darn, you beat me to it.

[Zygar]

This thread is misleading. The article hardly decries any death of christianity. It mostly mopes that christians are losing political power. Power which was squandered and I'm thrilled to see them lose.

[fullflavormenthol]

On the first paragraph, which discusses the doubling of nonreligious people admitting to being so in a survey, could it be that the number of atheists hasn't increased, but that the atheist publicity campaigns in the States, to the style of "don't believe in God? You're not alone" are making more atheists "come out of the closet"?


Bingo! I think you nailed it. I remember growing up in a small farming community, and going to church not because my parents forced me to go; but because of the overall social pressure. Admitting that you were an atheist in high school was asking for a beating in my community. It was with age that I decided it was time for me to stop playing Christian and accept my feelings about religion. Years later I would just publically admit that I was an atheist, partly because I left that farming community and that there isn't a threat of violence against me in the larger community. People I find are more willing to accept it, and since more of us our open about our feelings more atheists are willing to be public about it.

I find many religious people actually getting past the idea that I am out to destroy their way of life, and realizing that I really just want to be left alone. To paraphase Thomas Jefferson; I have never cared if my neighbor believes in one god or twenty gods, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

[CrikeyBobs]

The more Christianity is squeezed out of mainstream American life, the more entrenched, militant and extreme it will become in those pockets that remain. Who knows, Fred Phelps could become the subject of fond reminiscence.

And with that cheery thought, I'm off to bed.

[Fnord]

Christianity will never die as Christ is not dead!

Luke 21: 32-34 says 32"I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.
Have you any evidence that is not derived from the passages of an apocryphal book of questionable origins? Y'know ... something that actually supports your assertions, please.

[The Atheist]

Of course Christ isn't dead...he's a zombie.

I thought we were still undecided on whether he's a zombie or a vampire. I'm sure that walking on water is proof of him being a vampire, but I'm open to evidence.

[Phrost]

Jesus couldn't be a vampire since he appeared to his disciples in broad daylight.

Unless you're going by Twilight rules, which would explain his halo.

[Ladewig]

Christianity will never die as Christ is not dead!

Luke 21: 32-34 says 32"I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


So you quote a failed prophecy to show how relevant your religion is. C'mon, admit it. You are here to paint Christianity in a bad light.

[Steelmage]

I thought we were still undecided on whether he's a zombie or a vampire. I'm sure that walking on water is proof of him being a vampire, but I'm open to evidence.

I remember some underground books that brought up the issue of Christ being a vampire as the myth kind of follows the vampire one. I think it was called "Vampires or Gods".

Link: http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/books/vog.htm

and there is The Last Days of Christ the Vampire

http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/books/cv.htm

[Steelmage]

Jesus couldn't be a vampire since he appeared to his disciples in broad daylight.

Unless you're going by Twilight rules, which would explain his halo.

In folklore, vampires can attack during any time of the day or night. But preferred the night as it is easier to attack humans during the night. It was Bram Stroker who put in the idea of "vampires being susceptible to sunlight".

[Tricky]

A Newsweek article, recently posted on MSN, includes this quote by R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:



> LINK TO ARTICLE (http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002) <

Discuss...
I read that article, and it was quite good, but the magazine headline was a little misleading. The article really didn't suggest that the end of Christianity was near, only that it is losing some of the muscle it has had in the past, particularly the past thirty years or so since the Moral Majority (A double-misnomer) became a force in American politics.

The evangelical and fundamentalists movements have lost a number of recent battles, including Kitzmiller vs. Dover, the Texas School board decision on textbooks, the defeat of the Huckabee and Romney, the preferred candidates of most right-leaning Christians, the mention of "non-religious Americans" by Obama in some of his speeches, and of course, the several recent decisions to recognize gay marriage. Abortion is not the issue it used to be. Creationism and Intelligent Design have their backs against the wall. Even things like "In God We Trust" on the currency cause more eye-rolling than genuine concern.

But Christianity is, and will be for some time to come, the predominant religious force in America, and the fact that the largest growing segment of the population is Hispanics, who are traditionally quite Christian, will assure that Christians will have a large voice in American culture for many generations to come. What may start to fade is the hateful, anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-evolution, anti-secularity rhetoric that has served the right wing, and the Republican party in general, for so many years now. It appears that Americans are getting a little tired of having to hate so many things. A new era of acceptance seems to be nascent, and I, for one, welcome it wholeheartedly. But I don't have any illusions that Christianity as a force in America is on the way out.

[LarianLeQuella]

Man, and here I got my hopes all up...

[korenyx]

In folklore, vampires can attack during any time of the day or night. But preferred the night as it is easier to attack humans during the night. It was Bram Stroker who put in the idea of "vampires being susceptible to sunlight".


I just re-read Dracula and he is seen in daylight at least four times.

[NorfolkAtheist]

There is video documentation (http://www.filmthreat.com/index.php?section=reviews&Id=3134) showing that Jesus is not a vampire; he is a vampire hunter. Big difference, folks.

[Third Eye Open]

I just re-read Dracula and he is seen in daylight at least four times.

But did he sparkle?

[Third Eye Open]

I thought we were still undecided on whether he's a zombie or a vampire. I'm sure that walking on water is proof of him being a vampire, but I'm open to evidence.

I was pretty sure that in the folklore legends, vampires were not able to cross over moving water.

[Phrost]

But did he sparkle?

It figures that a movie targeted at teens would have vampire skin decorated like a MySpace page.

[six7s]

I loved the illustration. I instantly thought of a snake or some sort of projectile launcher aiming a strike at the cross in the background:D.This illustration?

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:KLXm9JUAeiwgfM:http://ndn3.newsweek.com/media/88/post-christian-america-NA01-vl-vertical.jpg (http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583)

Me too, but for another reason...

A blurry JC hangin' around in a cold venue with nothing to amplify his message

[Skeptic Ginger]

Gees, can no one read? The article's title is, "The End of Christian America", not the end of Christianity.

I, for one, am pleased to see the Falwell 'Moral Majority' political movement finally being addressed in the media for the failure that it was obviously doomed to be.

[six7s]

...the largest growing segment of the population is Hispanics, who are traditionally quite Christian, will assure that Christians will have a large voice in American culture for many generations to come.I'm a gazillion miles away and hear next to nothing from Hispanic USians...

Tricky, you're in TX, right? Is the (audible) volume even close to being in proportion with the masses attending masses?

[MattusMaximus]

This thread is misleading. The article hardly decries any death of christianity. It mostly mopes that christians are losing political power. Power which was squandered and I'm thrilled to see them lose.

Exactly. The thing that is really going on here is that many Christians, such as our friend KK here, have enjoyed an unchallenged status, of sorts, in U.S. society for a long time. But now that the demographics of the nation are changing and diversifying, with the emergence of more and more non-believers (atheists, agnostics, secuarlists, "nones", etc) among this shift, these hard-line Christians are going to lose their special status. And they don't like the fact that they'll basically be like the rest of us.

Boo hoo, indeed :rolleyes:


But Christianity is, and will be for some time to come, the predominant religious force in America, and the fact that the largest growing segment of the population is Hispanics, who are traditionally quite Christian, will assure that Christians will have a large voice in American culture for many generations to come. What may start to fade is the hateful, anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-evolution, anti-secularity rhetoric that has served the right wing, and the Republican party in general, for so many years now. It appears that Americans are getting a little tired of having to hate so many things. A new era of acceptance seems to be nascent, and I, for one, welcome it wholeheartedly. But I don't have any illusions that Christianity as a force in America is on the way out.

Well said, Tricky. Amen to that :)

[Fnord]

My take is that old Gamaliel was right concerning human-motivated religious teachers...


[38] "Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.

[39] But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."


That's from Acts 5, verses 38 and 39. Luke was quoting Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin.

[Nogbad]

Religion is an idea and ideas rarely die. There are still Zoroastrians, Pagans and goodness knows what else. However, Christianity ceased to be a hegemony on Western culture and thinking sometime after WW1. Since then there have been a plurality of ideas. This is very unlikely to change without someone resorting to guns.

[fuelair]

Christianity will never die as Christ is not dead!

Luke 21: 32-34 says 32"I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.What never lived can never die.

[fuelair]

I remember some underground books that brought up the issue of Christ being a vampire as the myth kind of follows the vampire one. I think it was called "Vampires or Gods".

Link: http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/books/vog.htm

and there is The Last Days of Christ the Vampire

http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/books/cv.htmSorry, visual evidence here:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311361/
he's not a vampire - he hunts them.

[Fnord]

What never lived can never die.

Of course, this begs the question of the validity of the Bible, no matter how righteously it is quoted.

[six7s]

My take is that old Gamaliel was right concerning human-motivated religious teachers...

[38] "Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.

[39] But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."


That's from Acts 5, verses 38 and 39. Luke was quoting Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin.

Is it just me... or does this sound like an out-take from The Lord of the Rings?

[Fnord]

I was thinking Chronicles of Narnia ... but then, both Lewis and Tolkein were Christians, and they were close friends, as well.

[Cainkane1]

I just re-read Dracula and he is seen in daylight at least four times.
How about his reflection in a mirror?

[six7s]

Dracula

a vampire hunter

The Lord of the Rings?

Chronicles of Narnia

How about his reflection in a mirror?

Yeah... I'm guilty, too...

But... how about we head back towards reality:

» The End of Christianity

[Darth Rotor]

I thought we were still undecided on whether he's a zombie or a vampire. I'm sure that walking on water is proof of him being a vampire, but I'm open to evidence.
I strongly recommend the following book to you:

Dracula, Asylum. Author = Paul Witcover.

You'll love it, it's in paperback, and it somewhat addresses that question.

DR

[korenyx]

But did he sparkle?

No, but his eyes looked like somebody forgot to hit the no red eye button on the camera.

[kmortis]

I thought we were still undecided on whether he's a zombie or a vampire. I'm sure that walking on water is proof of him being a vampire, but I'm open to evidence.

Jesus couldn't be a vampire since he appeared to his disciples in broad daylight.

Unless you're going by Twilight rules, which would explain his halo.

That and vamps only drink the blood. Both Zombies and Jesus, apparently, eat the brains too.

[kmortis]

What never lived can never die.

" That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-Nec. 12:25

[Roadtoad]

The fallacy was in the assumption that there was some sort of unified "Christian America" which could be lost. That was never the case, and if you have any question regarding that, just take a look at our colonial history. This sort of spiritual Eden, an oasis in the secular desert, simply never existed because people by their nature are fractious and prone to disagreement, as we learned from Roger Williams' decision to found the colony of Rhode Island, (as cited in the article), and from even a cursory examination of what happened in the southern colonies of the Carolinas and Georgia.

I think the greater presumption here is this notion that, somehow, there's a definite beginning and end to Christian influence on the nation, just as there's a definite point in time where we ended slavery. The reality is more muted, more subtle: like all intellectual and social ideas, it goes through phases. It will reassert itself at some point, but over time, it will begin to fade into the background. It will recede, and assume a more rational position in our national fabric.

And contrary to what Kathy might believe, that's probably a better thing.