Are Conspiracy Nuts..

[911kongen]

dangerous? I was thinking about this when I was making a youtube movie about Alex Jones. I now see the connection between Alex, Mcveigh, gun control and to the Militia. To me this looks extremely dangerous, and it will not surprise me if the next terror plot will be by american conspiracy nuts. Remember, the FBI have almost all there energy on exposing islamic terrorist. You americans may wake up one day, and be up for a surprise! Just like after the Oklahoma bomb..

[JihadJane]

If you're concerned just stick to hazel nuts.

[T.A.M.]

Yes, and it is quite disturbing that this latest killer, the one who killed the three officers, was, it seems, inspired, or at least internally guided by, the hate and fear mongering of Alex Jones.

TAM:)

[leftysergeant]

dangerous? I was thinking about this when I was making a youtube movie about Alex Jones.

Of course they are dangerous. They are at an age when a teenager starts to explosre sex and everything he does must enhance his sexuality.

Sooner or later, some idiot is going to deside that it is wrong to hold any remaining Nazis in prison or some wier ideas like that. You surely see where that might lead.

[fromdownunder]

Yes, and it is quite disturbing that this latest killer, the one who killed the three officers, was, it seems, inspired, or at least internally guided by, the hate and fear mongering of Alex Jones.

TAM:)

You would really need to establish that this was not just your garden variety nutter looking for a cause.

Had he not been (possibly) inspired by Jones, he may have looked for, and been equally inspired by another utter fruitcake to do the same thing. Maybe he just wanted to kill people anyway and needed an excuse.

Retrofitting his beliefs back to a specific cause when he was probably mentally unstable anyway and would have quite possibly done what he did for another "cause" - well, you do need to tread rather carefully.

Norm

[parky76]

most truthers are not dangerous, for they are too cowardly to ever act on their threats, let alone show up to a truther event.

now, combine truthism with white supremacy, paranoid schizophrenia, and guns, and you have a problem.

[JihadJane]

You would really need to establish that this was not just your garden variety nutter looking for a cause.

Had he not been (possibly) inspired by Jones, he may have looked for, and been equally inspired by another utter fruitcake to do the same thing. Maybe he just wanted to kill people anyway and needed an excuse.

Retrofitting his beliefs back to a specific cause when he was probably mentally unstable anyway and would have quite possibly done what he did for another "cause" - well, you do need to tread rather carefully.

Norm

Such retrofitting is bread and butter to JREF's social "scientists".

[parky76]

how many people have been murdered by truthers? so far 4.
how many people have been murdered by debunkers? zero.

[JihadJane]

how many people have been murdered by truthers? so far 4.
how many people have been murdered by debunkers? zero.

Great science! ;)

[fromdownunder]

Such retrofitting is bread and butter to JREF's social "scientists".

So is actually discussing a subject rather than simply making flippant one liners as replies. You ought to try it sometime.

norm

[MarkyX]

There is also Hitler, a conspiracy theorist that believed Jews ruined the German economy and blamed everything on the bankers.

You know, kind of like Alex Jones and We Are Change. Only difference between the two is Hitler had political power to do something about it.

[T.A.M.]

You would really need to establish that this was not just your garden variety nutter looking for a cause.

Had he not been (possibly) inspired by Jones, he may have looked for, and been equally inspired by another utter fruitcake to do the same thing. Maybe he just wanted to kill people anyway and needed an excuse.

Retrofitting his beliefs back to a specific cause when he was probably mentally unstable anyway and would have quite possibly done what he did for another "cause" - well, you do need to tread rather carefully.

Norm

Oh I agree, and that is why I have not made any statement concerning BLAME or CULPABILITY. What is disturbing, is that the loud, hateful, fear and anger provoking words of Alex Jones and the like, can influence, or at the least, fuel those who are predisposed to the same.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Such retrofitting is bread and butter to JREF's social "scientists".

So what is your take on the influence Alex Jones had on the PA Cop Killer, oh great one?

TAM:)

[chillzero]

how many people have been murdered by truthers? so far 4.
how many people have been murdered by debunkers? zero.

Jihad Jane has a point - how do you quantify that?

[Tweeter]

Why is this crap of a thread in the 911 conspiracy theories section?

[parky76]

Jihad Jane has a point - how do you quantify that?

the 3 cops killed in Pittsburgh, and the father that was killed by his nutty son many months ago.

[chillzero]

the 3 cops killed in Pittsburgh, and the father that was killed by his nutty son many months ago.

How do you quantify that none of the hundreds of murders that have occurred have not been undertaken by debunkers?

[dudalb]

It says something that Conspiracy Theories are so attractive to nutcases.

[T.A.M.]

Parky is clearly overstating, and speculating.

I think a more accurate statement would be,

I know of 4 murders likely committed by people influenced by CTists and CT activists.
I know of no murders carried out by debunkers, or those influenced by debunkers.

But heh, thats just my opinion.

TAM:)

[parky76]

I know of 4 murders likely committed by people influenced by CTists and CT activists.
I know of no murders carried out by debunkers, or those influenced by debunkers.

exactly what I said, just with better English.

;)

[parky76]

How do you quantify that none of the hundreds of murders that have occurred have not been undertaken by debunkers?

because newspapers and reporters LOVE to spin a political angle to any murder or violent crime.

i think if a murderer was somehow influenced by a hatred of 9-11 truthes and this website, we would have known about it.

[chillzero]

Parky is clearly overstating, and speculating.


Agreed.

[LightinDarkness]

Not all CT is dangerous, although all CT is not good for mental health - I would love to do a study looking at the correlation between belief in CTs and mental health disorders. The problem is the CTs would never sign up for any medical study since they would think it was a way for the NWO to brain wash them or something equally absurd.

But there is a dangerous component to encouraging violence with CTers. My first thoughts were that even this was harmless because encouraging violence against non-existent entities like the NWO, ala Alex Jones, can't lead to anything because the opposition doesn't exist. But as we've seen, when there is no real opposition some CTers will create them by attributing the NWO to cops, masons, etc.

Its not clear that CT alone can be enough to drive someone to do dangerous acts, but I can certainly see how it would be enough to drive someone over the edge who was already looking for reasons to commit such acts. Given the very obvious influence CT had on the murder in the other thread I started, the evidence does point to some CT being dangerous.

[T.A.M.]

Not all CT is dangerous, although all CT is not good for mental health - I would love to do a study looking at the correlation between belief in CTs and mental health disorders. The problem is the CTs would never sign up for any medical study since they would think it was a way for the NWO to brain wash them or something equally absurd.

But there is a dangerous component to encouraging violence with CTers. My first thoughts were that even this was harmless because encouraging violence against non-existent entities like the NWO, ala Alex Jones, can't lead to anything because the opposition doesn't exist. But as we've seen, when there is no real opposition some CTers will create them by attributing the NWO to cops, masons, etc.

Its not clear that CT alone can be enough to drive someone to do dangerous acts, but I can certainly see how it would be enough to drive someone over the edge who was already looking for reasons to commit such acts. Given the very obvious influence CT had on the murder in the other thread I started, the evidence does point to some CT being dangerous.

I agree. I do not think that the JFK or other theories are neccesarily dangerous. However, AJ and his "NWO coming to take your guns, and put you in concentration camps" CT bullcrap, MOST DEFINITELY has the potential to be a promotional factor, that may be enough to throw the wrong person, over the edge.

TAM:)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Parky is clearly overstating, and speculating.

I think a more accurate statement would be,

I know of 4 murders likely committed by people influenced by CTists and CT activists.
I know of no murders carried out by debunkers, or those influenced by debunkers.

But heh, thats just my opinion.

TAM:)

Actually, I think only 3 murders are directly attributable to conspiracism. The 4th, the murder of Dr Fitzgerald by his son Sean, strikes me as something that had more to do with Seans existing mental issues. Sean Fitzgerald adopted Alex Jones style conspiracism because of his paranoia. I believe he would have done it if he wasn't a 9/11 quack.

A better question would be wether any murders or violent assaults have been directly linked to debunking conspiracy theories.

For example, how many people have followed Penn Jillettes suggestion to push twoofers down flights of stairs? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I)

[shawmutt]

I think some here are confusing CTists with the medically mentally ill. Yeah, I know the retorts, I actually laughed at myself when I read what I typed, but I think if everyone who believed in conspiracy theories was certifiable and/or dangerous, we'd live in a much more violent world.

[LightinDarkness]

I think some here are confusing CTists with the medically mentally ill. Yeah, I know the retorts, I actually laughed at myself when I read what I typed, but I think if everyone who believed in conspiracy theories was certifiable and/or dangerous, we'd live in a much more violent world.

I think that you are presuming a link between mental illness and violence. I do believe there is a high correlation between belief in CTs and mental illness. This is because to believe in CTs requires a basic disconnect from reality and an acceptance of "alternative" realities that are so unfounded that you almost have to have mental illness to accept them. That doesn't mean every CTer is mentally ill, just that if we could do a study I would bet my entire retirement portfolio that the percentage of mentally ill within the CT group is higher than it is in the general population.

However, just because you suffer from mental illness doesn't mean you are violent. You could never harm a soul and still be mentally ill. Given the level of willful ignorance required to believe in CT though, I think there is likely to be a connection between the two.

[shawmutt]

I think that you are presuming a link between mental illness and violence. I do believe there is a high correlation between belief in CTs and mental illness. This is because to believe in CTs requires a basic disconnect from reality and an acceptance of "alternative" realities that are so unfounded that you almost have to have mental illness to accept them.

I disagree about the high correlation premise. A person can say these same things about every believer in religion, CAM, etc. I wouldn't say they were suffering from mental illness, in fact most are otherwise well-balanced and perfectly normal.

[LightinDarkness]

I disagree about the high correlation premise. A person can say these same things about every believer in religion, CAM, etc. I wouldn't say they were suffering from mental illness, in fact most are otherwise well-balanced and perfectly normal.

No, you cant.

Although there has been no study performed on this and none will ever be performed due to the group were talking about, the peer reviewed theory does indeed suggest a high correlation between the two. Can we confirm such a correlation? No, but none of the theoretical evidence backs up your belief, unless something has come out recently that I am not aware of.

Beck, A.T. & N.A. Rector. (2004). Cognitive approaches to schizophrenia: Theory and therapy. Annual Reviews, 1, 577-606.

And there are 50 more where that came from. All of them - some in small ways and some of them in large ways - proposing the theory that there is a link between conspiracy theory belief and mental illness. Particularity as an effect of mental illness, like schizophrenia.

[Malkuth]

Can we confirm such a correlation? No

So, you can't even confirm a correlation.

I know some of you really want to believe this idea, but I see this as a real far reach, restating your 'belief' as many times as it takes to convince yourselves and others less certain through repetition.

Threads like this are just rabble rousing.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I know some of you really want to believe this idea, but I see this as a real far reach...


There are psychologists that apparently disagree with you. You should talk to one of them, perhaps.

[LightinDarkness]

So, you can't even confirm a correlation.

I know some of you really want to believe this idea, but I see this as a real far reach, restating your 'belief' as many times as it takes to convince yourselves and others less certain through repetition.

Threads like this are just rabble rousing.

I see you've failed yet again to understand basic science.

Unlike you and other CTs, who suggest spurious correlations that can never even be theoretically examined, those of us in reality rely on science to examine our theories and submit them to the peer review process.

Please learn what theory means. Also, you should learn about the difference between correlation and causation - that will give you another pseudo-science line to throw around whenever the evidence is against you.

Now, where was your peer reviewed articles saying there is no theoretical link between mental illness and CTers like yourself? I'm waiting. You know, the more you show up to threads and post things like this the more you hurt your own cause of defending the woos. Keep it up! :)

[Malkuth]

There are psychologists that apparently disagree with you.

Try hard enough, scrape the bottom of enough barrels and you'll find someone willing to gleefully disagree with anything. it proves nothing accept that you have preconceived notions and will accept any flimsy scrap to support them.

[LightinDarkness]

Try hard enough, scrape the bottom of enough barrels and you'll find someone willing to gleefully disagree with anything. it proves nothing accept that you have preconceived notions and will accept any flimsy scrap to support them.

Oops, problem is all the literature disagrees with you. Not some, or just a few. And as usual, you can't provide any evidence to the contrary.

Because you have none. Because you are wrong.

[defaultdotxbe]

i think we have a chicken or the egg situation here

are anti-authority CTs making people antisocial and violent, or are antisocial, violent people simply more likely to get sucked into anti-authority CTs?

[JihadJane]

how many people have been murdered by truthers? so far 4.
how many people have been murdered by debunkers? zero.

How many debunkers are there in the US? 20?

[parky76]

How many debunkers are there in the US? 20?

um...we aren't the ones claiming to be a "movement".

most Americans just ignore you guys, wave their hands, and get on with living their lives.

but yes, we are the ones stupid enough to pay attention to your silly ideas, and rip them to shreds.

[parky76]

Try hard enough, scrape the bottom of enough barrels and you'll find someone willing to gleefully disagree with anything. it proves nothing accept that you have preconceived notions and will accept any flimsy scrap to support them.

wow......was that a Freudian slip there??????????????????

Holy guacamole Bat-Man...I think he is projecting!!!!

[Malkuth]

You're surprised that I'm using your own argument against you? Because it fits? All either side have is assertions and theories. You can't prove anything anymore than the truthers can. It's you guys using hateful and spiteful rhetoric though.

[parky76]

It's you guys using hateful and spiteful rhetoric though.

I'm sorry...who calls folks on the other side "traitors", "co-conspirators", "agents", "Mossad moles", "dual-citizens", etc?

Who says that those who disagree must be killed or tried for treason???

Its surely not our side. Its your side.

[SmartyPants]

Malkuth,

What's your definition of a theory? If we can't prove anything more than Truthers can, why are you taking a side?

[Malkuth]

It might seem like I'm taking a side, but I'm really not, despite the rabid debunkers desire to paint me as an idiot truther.

I've stated repeatedly on this forum that I don't buy the whole 'nwo rules everything' idea.

The problem I have with some people here is that they seem to be unable to admit even to themselves that there is, and always has been, an element of conspiratorialism present in human power structures. it's been a consistent fact of life ever since humans began to organise societies. Take a brief look at history and you will see example after example after example.

The modern conspiracy theoy 'movement' as some like to call it does take this idea to the extreme in some of it's conjectures. I never even began to dispute that.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It might seem like I'm taking a side, but I'm really not, despite the rabid debunkers desire to paint me as an idiot truther.

I've stated repeatedly on this forum that I don't buy the whole 'nwo rules everything' idea.


Umm... The label "truther" specifically applies to those conspiracy theorists that believe that there is a conspiracy surrounding 9/11. It's derived from their unofficial group name: The 9/11 Truth Movement. A truther is not necessarily someone that believes in the NWO.

The problem I have with some people here is that they seem to be unable to admit even to themselves that there is, and always has been, an element of conspiratorialism present in human power structures.


My God... You're absolutely wedded to the strawman fallacy, aren't you? You clearly haven't done your homework regarding the members of this forum.

[Malkuth]

I've tried to be moderate in suggesting support for some elements of conspiracy theory, yet I've been derided as an 'idiot truther' alongside more violent terms of ridicule many times here.

Don't try to backpedal by suggesting that the term 'truther' only applies to a small section of people who believe in a certain conspiracy theory to some degree. It may have started that way, but it's used as a general epithet by many people here, not a specifically targetted term.

[LightinDarkness]

I've tried to be moderate in suggesting support for some elements of conspiracy theory, yet I've been derided as an 'idiot truther' alongside more violent terms of ridicule many times here.

Don't try to backpedal by suggesting that the term 'truther' only applies to a small section of people who believe in a certain conspiracy theory to some degree. It may have started that way, but it's used as a general epithet by many people here, not a specifically targetted term.

My my, someone is trying desperately to play the victim.

You have tried - and failed - to act like you weren't a conspiracy theorist. You may or may not be a truther - I don't spend enough time in the 9/11 forums to know. But you are most definitely a conspiracy theorist, and there is nothing - despite all the evidence that has debunked you - that has led you even once to moderate your position. You have tried to throw up the illusion that you are somehow straddling both sides of the fence, but have failed in a spectacular fashion.

You take evidence and information that debunks you personally and turn them into insults. You seem to have a innate problem accepting who you are - you want to believe and support conspiracy theories despite any evidence that shows they are wrong, and at the same time try to act like you somehow don't believe in them.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I've tried to be moderate in suggesting support for some elements of conspiracy theory, yet I've been derided as an 'idiot truther' alongside more violent terms of ridicule many times here.


Have you reported these posts to a moderator?

Don't try to backpedal by suggesting that the term 'truther' only applies to a small section of people who believe in a certain conspiracy theory to some degree. It may have started that way, but it's used as a general epithet by many people here, not a specifically targetted term.


Type "truther" into Google and tell us what you get. Type "truther" into Wikipedia and tell us what you get.

[Malkuth]

Have you reported these posts to a moderator?

No I haven't, nor do I have any desire to. I've asked many times in threads for the personal attacks to stop and for people to get back to the topic, yet it keeps going for as long as I continue to post in threads.

The lack of moderator action in these instances speaks volumes to me about the level of acceptance of abusing and derailing any serious discussion of conspiracy theory or differing views of history here.

This whole section of the forum seems to me to be little more than a dedicated playground for making fun of and attacking people who take a view of history that deviates in any way from the officially sanctioned versions.

[LightinDarkness]

No I haven't, nor do I have any desire to. I've asked many times in threads for the personal attacks to stop and for people to get back to the topic, yet it keeps going for as long as I continue to post in threads.

The lack of moderator action in these instances speaks volumes to me about the level of acceptance of abusing and derailing any serious discussion of conspiracy theory or differing views of history here.

This whole section of the forum seems to me to be little more than a dedicated playground for making fun of and attacking people who take a view of history that deviates in any way from the officially sanctioned versions.

Moderators don't address imaginary issues.

[T.A.M.]

I have seen, on an occasion, posters here use the word "truther" incorrectly to apply to a general CTist.

I always, ALWAYS, use the term truther to refer to someone who is an active promoter of the theories associated with the 9/11 truth movement.

TAM:)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

No I haven't, nor do I have any desire to. I've asked many times in threads for the personal attacks to stop and for people to get back to the topic, yet it keeps going for as long as I continue to post in threads.

The lack of moderator action in these instances speaks volumes to me about the level of acceptance of abusing and derailing any serious discussion of conspiracy theory or differing views of history here.


This is bizarre to me. The alleged insults don't bother you enough to report them, yet you still expect a moderator to do something about them? What is this; passive aggressive whining?

This whole section of the forum seems to me to be little more than a dedicated playground for making fun of and attacking people who take a view of history that deviates in any way from the officially sanctioned versions.


You should spend some time on truther forums in the role that you try to play here. You'd already be banned. Believe or not, you have it good here (comparatively).

[T.A.M.]

No I haven't, nor do I have any desire to. I've asked many times in threads for the personal attacks to stop and for people to get back to the topic, yet it keeps going for as long as I continue to post in threads.

The lack of moderator action in these instances speaks volumes to me about the level of acceptance of abusing and derailing any serious discussion of conspiracy theory or differing views of history here.

This whole section of the forum seems to me to be little more than a dedicated playground for making fun of and attacking people who take a view of history that deviates in any way from the officially sanctioned versions.

If there were PERSONAL attacks (against you), point the mods to them. You have to report them, if you want them dealt with.

This section of the forum, in particular the 9/11 CT section, has seen the same silly nonsense 100's of times. As a result, tolerance for spewing the same crap is very limited. Honest questions get honest answers. Attempts to bait, or socratize people into your line of thinking will be dealt with in a less than cozy manner.

TAM:)

[dudalb]

I have seen, on an occasion, posters here use the word "truther" incorrectly to apply to a general CTist.

I always, ALWAYS, use the term truther to refer to someone who is an active promoter of the theories associated with the 9/11 truth movement.

TAM:)

Agreed. Although I think I am near the mark when I saw that probably a bug majority of CTists buy into the 9/11 theories/
For me I like the term "Tin Foiler" as a general term for Conspiracy Theorists.

[dudalb]

This whole section of the forum seems to me to be little more than a dedicated playground for making fun of and attacking people who take a view of history that deviates in any way from the officially sanctioned versions.

Mainly because the "unofficial" versions are 99% pure nonsense,unsupported by any evidence that stands up to any real challenge.
If you do not like the tone of the forum I will quote Harry Truman:
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

[T.A.M.]

Mainly because the "unofficial" versions are 99% pure nonsense,unsupported by any evidence that stands up to any real challenge.
If you do not like the tone of the forum I will quote Harry Truman:
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

exactly. If you have come for Cum bi ya (spelling?) there are threads for that, but the CT Subforum, nor many of the others, are not those threads.

That said, we should still try to keep it civil

TAM:)

[Peace]

how many people have been murdered by truthers? so far 4.
how many people have been murdered by debunkers? zero.

Depends if you class everyone who doesn't believe in the truth, as a debunker.

[defaultdotxbe]

Depends if you class everyone who doesn't believe in the truth, as a debunker.
i dont see why anyone who knows the definition of "debunk" would do that

ETA: it just occurred to me that most truthers do the opposite, anyone who isnt a debunker is classed as questioning the "government story"

[Aidoneus]

i dont see why anyone who knows the definition of "debunk" would do that

ETA: it just occurred to me that most truthers do the opposite, anyone who isnt a debunker is classed as questioning the "government story"

Really? I thought that debunkers were paid shills, or evidence of Government brainwashing, and anyone who isn't a debunker is part of the sheeple.

[1337m4n]

It might seem like I'm taking a side, but I'm really not

http://th06.deviantart.com/fs38/300W/f/2008/341/4/b/awesome_face___HD_by_ConnorJones2610.png

[Erigena]

The greatest danger that comes from portraying any conspiracy theory or pseudoscience as fact is the variable which accompanies the equation. You don't know who of the believers will act upon their misguided notions in a violent manner and who will simply continue to infect the minds of other susceptible lambs. Their methodology is an incurable virus.

[Erigena]

I agree with those who said not all CTs are mentally ill and not all mentally ill CTs are violent. They are all, however, deluded. That in itself can be dangerous because their delusions can influence the masses.