Mr Randi - This is for you and your readers

[TENYEARS]

What makes you think that if proof was shown that a human being actually makes logical sense as opposed to what you have prooposed a human being is that anyone would give your show any credibility whatsoever? Can a million dollars buy truth? Make it a billion. If I hand a billion to someone and say yes they have shown what is possible, does that it makes it so. Who will prove the prover. In this day where disception is common from top to bottom, what make you think that handing over money makes it so? The truth is like subatomic particles first it's there and then it is not. Its realization or manifestation is fleeting in a relative format even for those where the envelope has been pushed to extremley high limits. Auditors, why should I believe them? They were paid off to say it is true. You can set up anything you wish, but to prove that such a thing would exist has no credibilty whatsoever even if you had 100 auditors. You do pay them all or their company does so anything is possible.

[uneasy]

I hear Johnny Depp was declared the sexiest man alive.

[Yahweh]

All the words are properly capitalized, the grammar is about 6.5/10 or so, I can plainly see complete sentences... unfortunately, I cant make anything out of the post.

[Iconoclast]

Translated into Italian, then back to English, then into French, then back to English, then into Portuguese and finally back into English, and your eloquent passage is NO LESS COMPREHENSIBLE than it was originally. I think a round of applause is in order for the fine folk at BabelFish.

"That thing innate to think of that if the tests it will be indicated that to be it of the human being really that it marks the logical the opposite felt it that what you have prooposed to be of the human being it is that it does not import who flow with its exposition all credibility? They can million dollar buy the truth? Rendagli billion. If the period of training billion with somebody and the opinion to indicate yes that what is possible, it has that has thus. Who will show gunner of the tests. On this day where disception raised it to the deep one, that what invites it to think of whom cosegna is common moneies thus it makes it? The truth is as particles subatomic initially that it is here and is not then. Realization or the relative demonstration is provisory in a relative provision also for those where the envelope was introduced the high limits of extremley. They would have revisers of the customers, why me believe it? They were payment the end to say them this with that you it external part must line up. You can install qualche.cosa that you desire, but sample that such thing would exist on it does not have credibilty exactly if revisers of the customers has 100. It paid all or its qualche.cosa done company it is possible."

[DarkPrimus]

Apparently, the person does not believe the money exists, but that if the offer were a billion dollars, the offer would somehow be more credible.

[De_Bunk]

TENYEARS...

Yeh...

Right...

If anyone on this planet understood what you meant....

Well...

Maybe your next post will reveal a little more about you..and the point you're trying to make...

But...If Randi declared that the paranormal existed...that certain people really could communicate with the dead...that God exists...etc..

Then i would, personally, look at the evidence presented to me and, using common sense, make my own judgement.

I would also gauge this declaration of Randi's against the lack of any kind of evidence, whatsoever, since the beginning of mankind, of the paranormal existing...

Also...if Randi did make such an annoucement...every reputable place of learning, Doctors, Scientists etc...would also examine the evidence..

Therefore...it would not just be Randi's word that the paranormal existed...it would be everybody i have ever trusted to talk common sense..

But seeing as your post makes hardly no sense...i doubt my post will...

Ask Pillory for a more detailed explanation..

Owning two cars doesnt mean you could reverse an Elephant...

Remember that..

DB

[shemp]

Agur made more sense than this guy.

[geni]

It makes perfect sense (I'm used to reading my lecture notes).

He is saying that even if Randi gives the $1000000 that proves nothing and that he thinks that the $1000000 don't exist.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by geni
It makes perfect sense (I'm used to reading my lecture notes).

He is saying that even if Randi gives the $1000000 that proves nothing and that he thinks that the $1000000 don't exist.

Is it possible he is insinuating that Randi may set up the whole thing and give the million away just to prove a paranormal phenomenon that would actually be a quack ?

This is an interesting theory...

[roger]

I bet it feels real good to post libelous accusations while hiding behind a screen name, TenYears.

We will weigh your statements with just as much commitment as you are showing by posting anonomously. So, I think..

Oh look, a kitty!

[TENYEARS]

Originally posted by geni
It makes perfect sense (I'm used to reading my lecture notes).

He is saying that even if Randi gives the $1000000 that proves nothing and that he thinks that the $1000000 don't exist.

I first part is correct, but the second is not. I do not believe or disbeive the million is there. I do not know.

Is it possible he is insinuating that Randi may set up the whole thing and give the million away just to prove a paranormal phenomenon that would actually be a quack ?

I not saying that the individual would be a quack, I am saying it would be real, but just because 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 was paid out does not give it any validity whatsoever. I also conteneded with the possibiility of the other scenerio(quack) which is also a possibility.

Billions have been doled out on lies, the truth and facts have been altered throughout history. So where would the credibility come from other than direct experience of the that which you are attemping to prove. Anyone outside of that experience would be a believer and nothing more. I can take any set of combine facts and say it is true or untrue either conciously or unconcously.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by TENYEARS

I can take any set of combine facts and say it is true or untrue either conciously or unconcously.
You can say it's true (or untrue), but that doesn't make it true (or untrue).

[El Greco]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Billions have been doled out on lies, the truth and facts have been altered throughout history. So where would the credibility come from other than direct experience of the that which you are attemping to prove. Anyone outside of that experience would be a believer and nothing more. I can take any set of combine facts and say it is true or untrue either conciously or unconcously.

Ok, I get it now, but I think we should start worrying about it *IF* anyone manages to grab the million, which my psychic powers tell me is not going to happen anytime soon.

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by TENYEARS


I am saying it would be real, but just because 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 was paid out does not give it any validity whatsoever. I also conteneded with the possibiility of the other scenerio(quack) which is also a possibility.

Billions have been doled out on lies, the truth and facts have been altered throughout history. So where would the credibility come from other than direct experience of the that which you are attemping to prove. The awarding of the million is not what gives validity to the phenomenon that passes the test. The validity arises from the fact that the phenomenon passed under proper observing conditions. When a phenomenon passes under proper observing conditions that means that anyone who reproduces those conditions should be able to observe the phenomenon.

No, the million is simply The Carrot and The Carrot requires The Stick. In this case The Stick is the apparent truth to materialism/physicalism. Because of this particular stick, don’t hold your breath for any phenomenon to be awarded The Carrot.

[TENYEARS]

I am not debating the fact or wheather it is real or not. I am presenting the fact the the maner of credibility of Randi or a host of audits or auditors does not make it real under any circumstances if one was presented. I do not think the scientific community would give two carps about what Randi finds or any of his auditors say is real. It would just be paper. The whole thing could have been staged or not. The world would not know the truth. One might as well go to the circus.

Ah yes, there are also arms in Iraq, JFK shot himself, the president is an honest man, large companies project billions in statements which are all true. All by auditors all by truthful people. The truth of such a thing is greater than all of these things. If randi will only attract that which like himself. If he wants the truth, he will have to beg like dog for scraps from the table.

This is the truth, if you apply logic you will understand. If you stop short of your capacity, you will not.

[LightPiercingDarkness]

...where did the money (1 million) originate from? Who saved/made it. Who put it, where it is now?

[JimTheBrit]

...where did the money (1 million) originate from? Who saved/made it. Who put it, where it is now?

"Randi first challenged professed practitioners of the paranormal in 1968, offering $1,000 to anybody who could prove they have psychic powers. No one claimed it. So he upped the prize to $10,000, then to $1 million. It wasn't real money at first, just an amount pledged by hard-nosed skeptics from around the world. Then "a very wealthy gentleman in one of the northern states" made a donation of $1 million to Randi's cause. The money now sits in an investment account in New York City..." Source (http://www.clevescene.com/issues/1999-11-04/feature.html)

"One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account," as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail." Source (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
...where did the money (1 million) originate from? Who saved/made it. Who put it, where it is now?

It is right here:

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/investmentaccount.gif

[LightPiercingDarkness]

wondering larsen....where did you get that from?

[Zep]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
I am not debating the fact or wheather it is real or not. I am presenting the fact the the maner of credibility of Randi or a host of audits or auditors does not make it real under any circumstances if one was presented.

Randi does not have "auditors". The applicants for the JREF $1M are tested by scientists. Not "auditors," scientists. Real, live scientists who use care and caution and have enormous credibility, not to mention putting their own reputations at risk if they make silly pronouncements.

I do not think the scientific community would give two carps about what Randi finds or any of his auditors say is real. It would just be paper. The whole thing could have been staged or not. The world would not know the truth. One might as well go to the circus.

(Are we smelling a conspiracy theorist, anyone?) TENYEARS, you have the cart before the horse. The scientists would be the ones doing the examination of any claims for paranormal, and Randi would then award the JREF prize if such a claim was upheld. You should really read the relevant parts of this site MUCH more closely and not listen to inflammatory rhetoric from the paranormal sensationalist loonies.

Ah yes, there are also arms in Iraq, JFK shot himself, the president is an honest man, large companies project billions in statements which are all true. All by auditors all by truthful people. The truth of such a thing is greater than all of these things. If randi will only attract that which like himself. If he wants the truth, he will have to beg like dog for scraps from the table.

Yep, conspiracy theorist, I feel. Trolling too? We'll see how this goes on.

This is the truth, if you apply logic you will understand. If you stop short of your capacity, you will not.

Does this sound like anyone we know?

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
wondering larsen....where did you get that from?

Just a wild guess here, but maybe:

Goldman, Sachs & Co.
Mellon Bank Center
1735 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103

?

[LightPiercingDarkness]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Just a wild guess here, but maybe:

Goldman, Sachs & Co.
Mellon Bank Center
1735 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103

?

I went to that site.
You have to be a member to even sign on there. Which means you have to have an account to do so.

So...how did he get it? I'd like to see it for my self

Lyndale

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness


I went to that site.
You have to be a member to even sign on there. Which means you have to have an account to do so.

So...how did he get it? I'd like to see it for my self

Lyndale I believe the JREF makes these account statements available upon request.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Zep
Randi does not have "auditors". The applicants for the JREF $1M are tested by scientists. Not "auditors," scientists. Real, live scientists who use care and caution and have enormous credibility, not to mention putting their own reputations at risk if they make silly pronouncements.Just to clarify, I think TENYEARS may have been using the term "auditor" in its lesser-used but more general sense of someone whose task is to scrutinize or verify.

At any rate, I don't believe that JREF Challenge applicants are exclusively tested by scientists. I think the makeup of the review panel depends on the nature of the applicant's claim. Randi has previously indicated his lack of confidence in the ability of scientists to test certain paranormal claims, pointing out that (for example) only a professional magician can reliably detect the work of another professional magician.

(As a side comment, it sounds as though you are comparing the independent judgment of financial auditors unfavorably to that of scientists. In fact, there are substantially greater and more sophisticated safeguards in place to ensure the independence and competence of financial auditors than of scientists - and the penalties for breaches are considerably more severe.)

[Zep]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Just to clarify, I think TENYEARS may have been using the term "auditor" in its lesser-used but more general sense of someone whose task is to scrutinize or verify.

At any rate, I don't believe that JREF Challenge applicants are exclusively tested by scientists. I think the makeup of the review panel depends on the nature of the applicant's claim. Randi has previously indicated his lack of confidence in the ability of scientists to test certain paranormal claims, pointing out that (for example) only a professional magician can reliably detect the work of another professional magician.

(As a side comment, it sounds as though you are comparing the independent judgment of financial auditors unfavorably to that of scientists. In fact, there are substantially greater and more sophisticated safeguards in place to ensure the independence and competence of financial auditors than of scientists - and the penalties for breaches are considerably more severe.) I suspect the term most suitable would be "referee" or perhaps "umpire".

[TENYEARS]

ceo_esq, you understand the nature of some of what I have said here. The most important factor which I have not apparently got accross is that I am still a believer even if all of nasa says it's true and I believe without experience. What has changed for me under these circumstances? Nothing. Would the transfer of paper or a video tape be prove to the world that it was real. No. Would a display, no. It could be a magicians trick, masquareding to take peoples cash right.

Maybe the right question is, can the world handle the truth?

[Brown]

I have to say that I have no idea what the initiator of this thread is talking about.

[Eos of the Eons]

I think he is confused. He figures we're woo woos...who will give money to a woo woo to prove wooism is true...

And he says the truth is fleeting, which of course is true in woo woo land.

So, he doesn't seem to get that noone has won the money yet because no woo woo can prove what they say is true.

So, he doesn't have to worry about validity, we won't validate anything that is not valid.

So, I think he should calm down and join the group in showing wooism for its true colors.

Unless I have it @ss backwards...

And it's that old argument that noone is bothering with the million, cause it ain't a billion, and therefore not worth trying to win the million. So wooism is true because noone is bothering with trying to win the paltry million...cause wooism is never about the money ya know.
[/sarcasm]

[Zep]

Brown, I think TENYEARS means is that, despite ALL evidence to the contrary, despite his own eyes and senses, despite ALL arguments, despite ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, if something does not match up to his own belief of how the world operates then it is all just some effort to deceive him using sleight-of-hand and smoke and mirrors.

There's no sane response to that, I feel.

[UnrepentantSinner]

After reading the frist TEN WORDS of the OP my eyes started glazing over. The replies made sense, but it seems like TENYEARS beef is the same tired crap we hear about the Challenge - even if it's won, it proves nothing, and if it's not won that proves nothing as well.

Zero sum statements are hardly worth making TY.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Zep
Brown, I think TENYEARS means is that, despite ALL evidence to the contrary, despite his own eyes and senses, despite ALL arguments, despite ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, if something does not match up to his own belief of how the world operates then it is all just some effort to deceive him using sleight-of-hand and smoke and mirrors.

There's no sane response to that, I feel.


Yeah, cause Santa Clause is real, and anyone who says he's not is mean. So there.

[xouper]

Zep: There's no sane response to that, I feel.Which leaves insane responses, like perhaps sneaking up behind him and introducing the back of his head to some significant 1/2 mv² in the form of a hockey stick.





Just kidding. I don't advocate or condone such violence or cruelty to innocent hockey sticks. :)


Eos of the Eons: ... noone ... noone ... noone ...Wow, three times in one post. A new record. :D

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by xouper


Wow, three times in one post. A new record. :D

Man, I'm never gonna learn. You have some kind of hone in ability for things like that...

Or you're actually the type who reads all of my post, cool :D

[Zep]

Originally posted by xouper
Which leaves insane responses, like perhaps sneaking up behind him and introducing the back of his head to some significant 1/2 mv² in the form of a hockey stick.Actually, that's still sane, in my book.

I fear that no-one has no one answer...

I'll run away now...

[TENYEARS]

Eos of the Eons, just wanna know if that's your real picture.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Damn, hitting on skepchicks before your 10th post? No that's a pair you got there mister.

[xouper]

Eos of the Eons: You have some kind of hone in ability for things like that...That may be one way to describe it, but unfortunately, when I read "noone" in a sentence, my mind automatically pronounces it like Peter Noone's last name, and this brings a bit of semantic disharmony to the rest of the sentence, which then makes the misspellign stick out like a turd in a bowl of peanuts. I'm cursed that way, I guess. :)

[Zep]

Originally posted by xouper
...stick out like a turd in a bowl of peanuts.It sounds like you have actually seen ...


No, I won't pursue that. Erky thoughts. Gack! Gack! Pthhht!

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by xouper

Eos of the Eons: ... noone ... noone ... noone ...

Wow, three times in one post. A new record. :D

You know, she's Canadian, so I suspect her No one sounds like Noone anyway.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes, no one does sound like noone...what else does it sound like :confused: nooooowon

sigh. at least that might explain it :)


Originally posted by TENYEARS
Eos of the Eons, just wanna know if that's your real picture.

Nah, if you go in the poster pictures (or really peruse my web site) in the community, you can find a real pic of me or two...some really sweet skeptics say I look better than my avatar :c2:

[TENYEARS]

Pretty lady, and nice family.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Pretty lady, and nice family.
AW, thank you much :) Now where's your picture...we gotta keep the poster picture thread full of fresh new faces, specially ones dressed up in neat costumes and brandishing weapons! Not a requirement of course though.

Mr Randi readers are awesome ;)

[Schizobunny]

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
...where did the money (1 million) originate from? Who saved/made it. Who put it, where it is now?

I can tell you who made it. The U.S. Treasury Department.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Pretty lady, and nice family.

At last...a statement that makes sense...(And he/she/it is right!)

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Chaos


At last...a statement that makes sense...(And he/she/it is right!)

Aw, like I said, JREF folks are the sweetest :)

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Nah, if you go in the poster pictures (or really peruse my web site) in the community, you can find a real pic of me or two...some really sweet skeptics say I look better than my avatar :c2: ...the ones with eyes say that, anyway. Can't speak for the others. :D

[Eos of the Eons]

Hey Merc, who has no eyes? How's your sexy diva anyway :) You lucky guy!
I guess the thread starter isn't going to give up his identity that easy, oh well, I tried :)

[NightG1]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
What makes you think that if proof was shown that a human being actually makes logical sense as opposed to what you have prooposed a human being is that anyone would give your show any credibility whatsoever?
Wow!!!! I've read this 5 times and I still haven''t a clue as to its meaning. Is this like some kind of Zen or something?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by shemp
Agur made more sense than this guy.

Whatever happened to Agur? At least he was an entertaining loon.

[roger]

I liked Agur. I was particularly impressed, after Bjorn and I pressed him and posted post after post proving that he was not affecting the weather, that he admitted that he did not succeed, and was confused why.

Last I saw he posted that his girlfriend Sophie was sick. He came back for a few posts a while later, but quickly disappeared. i sure hope he brought her to a real hospital, and didn't try to cure her himself.

I haven't seen him on other forums, since the sophie's sick post, either in English or Japanese (he posted the same stuff in Japanese to Japanese boards, getting pretty much a WTF? response)

[Temporal Renegade]

I've just come across this thread, and thought I might be able to throw my 2p in...

Wasn't there an addendum to the challenge years ago, where if someone tried and failed, they had to claim in public that they didn't really have any psychic abilities, and sign a paper to that effect? I seem to remember that, for some reason.

Of course, it could be Randi's Nega-Vibes at work and screwing with my memory...

[TENYEARS]

I guess he would have to make another adendum then, because regardless of what anyone thinks, I know what I know and I see what I see. I would sign no such foolishness and such a statement is the most rediculous thing I have ever freeking herd of. What is this some type of ego horse s**t. If this challange is real it is concerned with truth and finding it or is it about living in the ??????? haze you all live in. Everybody wants to protect their little tower of power. Amazing or not. Burn off the dam fog and live. Whats the matter, the truth to freeking painful you don't need to come into the light, you can learn to see in the dark.

Logic here think about it. One can say such abilities were not displayed durning a F?????? test, but does that mean they do not exist. I know you have the ability to think, use it please this is GD embarssing. After that statement I now question the credibility of the whole setup. If I do not recieve anything worth while in the next few messages, I am done with your forum and even thinking about this so called million dollar holy grail challange.

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#cc6666 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#cc6666><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>edited by hal:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=2>Please don't cuss</font></td></tr></table>

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I've just come across this thread, and thought I might be able to throw my 2p in...

Wasn't there an addendum to the challenge years ago, where if someone tried and failed, they had to claim in public that they didn't really have any psychic abilities, and sign a paper to that effect? I seem to remember that, for some reason.

Of course, it could be Randi's Nega-Vibes at work and screwing with my memory...

Must be [the Nega-Vibes]. Not a part of the test, never was, and Randi has expressly stated the opposite -- not passing the agreed test conditions does not and could not equal disproof of any claimed powers or phenomenon. People can re-rest after one year - not much point if they've already admitted they have no powers.


edited to add material in brackets for clarity.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Logic here think about it. One can say such abilities were not displayed durning a F?????? test, but does that mean they do not exist. I know you have the ability to think, use it please this is GD embarssing. After that statement I now question the credibility of the whole setup. If I do not recieve anything worth while in the next few messages, I am done with your forum and even thinking about this so called million dollar holy grail challange.

See above.

These people, including me, are just posters on this web site. They/we are not officially with the JREF and most have no more knowledge about the challenge that you do.

If you've read the rules carefully, I daresay that you have more knowledge than half the people posting on this board (at least a large percentage).

The site itself has the posted rules and how to apply. You will need a clear statement of what you can do or demonstrate. It would be helpful if you can be as specific as possible. If you have a suggested method of testing, include that -- if not, the JREF may have suggestions that you can then look at and decide if they need to be used, modified, or scrapped.

If an agreement can be reached, then there will be the test(s).

If you want to try to succeed, you will need to send in the application. The posters on here can offer advice on the process, but untimately the JREF itself would be a far better source for answering questions.

Apply; don't apply. Whichever you'd like. Good luck, either way.

N/A

[Eos of the Eons]

Whats the matter, the truth to freeking painful you don't need to come into the light, you can learn to see in the dark. :D


Take it from me, Don't judge Randi by the Boards, I don't remember him ever posting since I've been around.

AGAIN though-WHAT TRUTH??

You have yet to come up with ANY hint of what the heck you are talking about. We admit we are not mind readers, so out with it already.

I for one love pushing ambiguous buttons, so by all means-just ignore me, but your little game is far from convincing thus far.

You asked for one thing...a rule change.

Not going to happen, so have a fit, so what, it's amusing.
It's been fun, thanks for laughs, have a nice life.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Must be [the Nega-Vibes]. Not a part of the test, never was, and Randi has expressly stated the opposite -- not passing the agreed test conditions does not and could not equal disproof of any claimed powers or phenomenon. People can re-rest after one year - not much point if they've already admitted they have no powers.


edited to add material in brackets for clarity.

Thanks for clearing that up!:)

[Zep]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
I guess he would have to make another adendum then, because regardless of what anyone thinks, I know what I know and I see what I see. I would sign no such foolishness and such a statement is the most rediculous thing I have ever freeking herd of. What is this some type of ego horse s**t. If this challange is real it is concerned with truth and finding it or is it about living in the ??????? haze you all live in. Everybody wants to protect their little tower of power. Amazing or not. Burn off the dam fog and live. Whats the matter, the truth to freeking painful you don't need to come into the light, you can learn to see in the dark.

Logic here think about it. One can say such abilities were not displayed durning a F?????? test, but does that mean they do not exist. I know you have the ability to think, use it please this is GD embarssing. After that statement I now question the credibility of the whole setup. If I do not recieve anything worth while in the next few messages, I am done with your forum and even thinking about this so called million dollar holy grail challange. Let's try that again with spelling and grammar corrected as best I can, and see if we have any more sense.

I guess he [Randi] would have to make another addendum then, because regardless of what anyone thinks, I know what I know and I see what I see. I would sign no such foolishness, and such a statement is the most ridiculous thing I have ever freaking heard of.

What is this? Some type of ego horse-****? If this challenge is real, it is concerned with truth and finding it. Or is it about living in the f???ing haze you all live in? Everybody wants to protect their little tower of power, amazing or not. Burn off the damn fog and live. What's the matter [with you]? [Is] the truth to freaking painful? You don't need to come into the light, you can learn to see in the dark.

[There is] logic here - think about it. One can say [that] such abilities were not displayed during a f???ing test, but does that mean they do not exist? I know you have the ability to think. Use it, please. This is God-damned embarassing. After that statement I now question the credibility of the whole setup.

If I do not receive anything worthwhile in the next few messages, I am done with your forum, and even thinking about this so-called million-dollar holy-grail challenge.

[Zep]

TENYEARS, has it ever occured to you that YOU may be the one living in your own "tower of power" and trying to protect it from the outside world? Perhaps you could let the blinkers fall from your own eyes...

What exactly is this "foolish condition" from Randi that makes you so upset?

[TENYEARS]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I've just come across this thread, and thought I might be able to throw my 2p in...

Wasn't there an addendum to the challenge years ago, where if someone tried and failed, they had to claim in public that they didn't really have any psychic abilities, and sign a paper to that effect? I seem to remember that, for some reason.

Of course, it could be Randi's Nega-Vibes at work and screwing with my memory...

I was responding to this lack of logic statement and if it was true at any point in time would give little credibility to the whole process of the million dollar challange or that it is a search for anything at all.

[Dancing David]

TENYEARS:
I came to this thread late and I hope you will consider me neutral if not sympathetic. I think that it is very likely that the conditions of the test could be a factor in someone's powers operating, assuming that they exist. Especialy given the fact that the human psyche is a delicate thing.

What I would ask is the following:
the goal of the test is to prove that there is no chicanery involved in producing the result, many people do fake extra-ordinary power.
Which I am not saying is you!

So how could you demosntrate your power in a way that could be demonstrated to not be chicanery?

Would you agre to be examined by Randi?
Would you agree to put your written description of a vision in an envelope that would be sealed and kept by Randi?
I don't know much about visions, the ones I have a more colorful emotions than predictors of the future:
Would you vision be specific enough that an impartial jury could agree that the vision was an accurate prediction of the future?

Which gets to a cool question, do visions show a future that MUST be or a future that MIGHT be, that could be crucial to the test.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Which gets to a cool question, do visions show a future that MUST be or a future that MIGHT be, that could be crucial to the test.

If it's the latter then it's useless as a test. I can't imagine anyone paying out for a vision of the future that has not actually happened. The writers of Space 1999 would have got it years ago!

[diddidit]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
One can say such abilities were not displayed durning a F?????? test, but does that mean they do not exist.

The point of the tests is not to disprove such abilities - it is to prove them in a scientific, repeatable setting. I assume you've heard the phrase, "you can't prove a negative." It applies in this situation.

The million dollar prize is simply a carrot to attract people to the test.

did

[davefoc]

I thought TENYEARS was asking a philosophical question about how can we be sure of anything except that which we experience directly.

I think he is saying that he has personally experienced paranormal phenomena and that is enough to confince hime of its validity. This is as opposed to a Randi test where his lack of direct experience with the testing would leave him skeptical of any positive results.

So from this follows the logic that the tests are useless. If the results are negative all that can be inferred is that at the particular moment of the test with the particular subject a paranormal effect was not detected which says little about the overall validity of paranormal phenomena. If the results are positive, the possibility of fraud, or improper procedure, etc. are such that one can't infer much about the existence of the paranormal from the test.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by diddidit


The point of the tests is not to disprove such abilities - it is to prove them in a scientific, repeatable setting. I assume you've heard the phrase, "you can't prove a negative." It applies in this situation.

The million dollar prize is simply a carrot to attract people to the test.

did


I'd still probably bypass the JREF prize & hit Las Vegas, if I had psychic powers. That way you could hide your skills and still make some money from them!:)

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by davefoc
So from this follows the logic that the tests are useless. If the results are negative all that can be inferred is that at the particular moment of the test with the particular subject a paranormal effect was not detected which says little about the overall validity of paranormal phenomena. If the results are positive, the possibility of fraud, or improper procedure, etc. are such that one can't infer much about the existence of the paranormal from the test.

But that's not what the test is about. The point of the test is to give someone a million dollars if they can do exactly what they claim to do. If they get a positive result, they're not expected to explain how they did it or demonstrate the process further. They get the million, and that's all.

Again, Randi never claims that the lack of any positive results proves the non existence of these phenomena. But the fact that no one can perform under proper scrutiny says a great deal, doesn't it?

[JimTheBrit]

Temporal Renegade: Wasn't there an addendum to the challenge years ago, where if someone tried and failed, they had to claim in public that they didn't really have any psychic abilities, and sign a paper to that effect? I seem to remember that, for some reason.

Change the word 'any' to 'the tested' and I'll agree with you ;)

AFAIAA, a declaration by the applicant that they do not possess the paranormal powers that had been tested for - after failure - has always been part of the challenge agreement.

From the (presumptive) challenge rules when the amount offered was $10,000:
"12. CLAIMANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT HE OR SHE DOES NOT POSSESS THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This rule must be accepted by the claimant without reservation."
Source: ftp://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pub/Randi>challenge.gz

This has since been amended to the more reasonable:
"12. EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of what will constitute the demonstration." Source (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html)

[Temporal Renegade]

You'd still have to wonder, though...

If you *knew* you were a fraud, and took the test to try & put one over on Randi et.al., why would you get upset if it didn't work?

Talk about guts!!

[NullPointerException]

TENYEARS if you could do something paranormal I would know about it already so stop playing with these nice people. =) If you do have one, and I don't know about it, than you are practicing without a license and are very naughty! The fact that you did not PM me your methodology when requested shows you have something to hide.

[Kopji]

I'd have a quite a bit more respect for an honest believer who tries the test and fails, than the believers who pass up this opportunity to do so much good with their psychic gift. After all, the award money could be donated to their charity of choice.

To be given the opportunity to do good and instead do nothing, (even out of fear), seems the choice of a lesser path.

[TheBoyPaj]

I have a friend who believes she may have some psychic ability, but she won't agree to even be tested by me. I think it's fear of failure and a sense that she might not be as important as she currently imagines herself to be.

[Suezoled]

I once told a man I never met before he was 37 (true at the time), in his last year of undergrad work at college (also true) and he was majoring in mathematics after he tried liberal arts (also true).

How did I know this? Just plain freakin' lucky. But dang didn't it sound good? That guy's eyes just about bugged out of his head. :D

[NullPointerException]

I was playing poker with the ghosts of Lincoln, George Washington, and Orwell and Orwell had an ace of spades, the seven of spades and the jack of spades on the flop so I was like, it will be spades. Next two cards? Spades... obviously I'm clairvoyant.

http://www.drunkandretired.com/dogs/
Bottom picture
*edit* just incase you don't believe me I toke pictures. Note that the camera is really bad so the ghosts look like dogs. From left to right: in the picture iis Orwell, Lincoln(who is trying to see if Orwell is bluffing) and George is to the far right. I am off to the left out of frame.

[citytom]

Ten Years,
Did you read what you wrote before you posted it?
It makes no sense.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by uneasy
I hear Johnny Depp was declared the sexiest man alive.

I'm skeptical for the following reasons;

What are the odds that the sexiest man alive is someone famous? And yet, it happens every year! (Unless fame contributes to the sexiness, which is possible I suppose)

And why has it never been the same person two years in a row? Are say, Will Smith and George Clooney so close in sexiness that one year can put one over the other?

[Prester John]

Just an observation but TY's written english seems to change style and sometimes its actually quite natural/native. Additionally his(?) comprehension of the replies is perfectly fine. Yanking chain are.