High Order Damage

[roundhead]

From this site......

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/


Quote:

HIGH-ORDER DAMAGE”

NFPA 921

18.3.2 - “High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

We see all signs of “high-order damage” in all three building collapses. There is no arguing this. And, it’s very clearly stated “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”



Is this NFPA that is being quoted something that should be taken to heart and followed on fire investigations in the US??

[roundhead]

And this, from the above site as well:


NFPA 921 14.3 “Preservation of the Fire Scene and Physical Evidence” we find the following “the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation. Therefore, the evidentiary or interpretative value of various pieces of physical evidence observed at the scene may not be known until, at, or near the end of the fire scene examination, or until the end of the complete investigation. As a result, the entire fire scene should be considered physical evidence and should be protected and preserved.”

[parky76]

Is there a point here?

[roundhead]

Is there a point here?


I think its pretty evident

[HannibalGroup]

I think its pretty evident...

... that there isn't a point.

[T.A.M.]

You had me (leaving) at the link...

TAM:)

[Bobert]

Nothing to see here folks...

[UNLoVedRebel]

Nothing to see here folks...
I beg to differ.

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/ff4911truth02.jpg

[Kesha]

And this, from the above site as well:


NFPA 921 14.3 “Preservation of the Fire Scene and Physical Evidence” we find the following “the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation. Therefore, the evidentiary or interpretative value of various pieces of physical evidence observed at the scene may not be known until, at, or near the end of the fire scene examination, or until the end of the complete investigation. As a result, the entire fire scene should be considered physical evidence and should be protected and preserved.”

Agreed. A normal procedure.

In this case, evidence has been destroyed. A mayor fault, as the relevant persons in charge are now not able to protect new buildings.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Investigation? What investigation?
35zZeNcIAZ8
WARNING! VIEWING MAY RESULT IN TRUTHER COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!

[leftysergeant]

As a result, the entire fire scene should be considered physical evidence and should be protected and preserved.”

Have you been payiung attention? I am sure you were a member here when I pointed out that the first and foremost priority on any fire scene is the extinguishment of the fire and rescue and recovery of victims. You can't do that with thousands of tons of steel sitting there on top of the fire.

Even in an ordinary fire, extinguishment is part of "preserving" the evidence.

Please learn a little more about the principles of fire fighting and investigation before you misapply them further.

[leftysergeant]

We see all signs of “high-order damage” in all three building collapses. There is no arguing this. And, it’s very clearly stated “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

Dropping several hundred tons of stuff down an enclosed space kind oif causes a sudden rise in pressure within that space.



Is this NFPA that is being quoted something that should be taken to heart and followed on fire investigations in the US??

In cases where the cause of an event was not observed on live TV by several million people, yes.

[WildCat]

Most truthers seem to suffer from high order brain damage, that is indisputable.

[stateofgrace]

Roundhead,did you ask any real fire-fighters what they think about http://firefightersfor911truth.org/ ? Or the guy who runs it ?No?

Maybe you should have...............

Truth be told the only firefighters that I give a damn about what they have to say about 9-11 is the ones that were there. In my mind the FDNY guys have said what they have to say about it and that is good enough for me.

To me the continual conspiracy nonsense serves only to dishonor those that died heros AND innocent victims that day. That a firefighter is responsible for another conspiracy website is simply despicable to me.

I just hurt myself. I fell off the chair laughing. This friggin' moron is lecturing ME about NFPA 921. ME!

You may not be hear to name call and insult, but I am. You are a loser, pal. I challenge you to walk into anyf firehouse in NYC and spew this nonsense. Just make sure that you leave good info as to what you want done with your remains (not a threat, but a prediction).

And, just so I fit into your little model, here...I was standing with several hundred other fire fighters outside Manhattan Community College when 7 fell. I watched it, heard it, smelled it and saw it fall. You are 100% completely, totally positvely wrong on every single count.


Most of us here prefer not to waste our time with people like you that simply prefer to stir the pot and dismiss the word of the true Brothers that were there that day have to say. Show me the masses of FDNY firefighters that stand with you. Come on I'll wait. there are roughly 12,000 of them. Why aren't they lined up en masse to back your position? Because when you face the true facts you end up looking like just another conspiracy wack job.
I dare you to walk into an FDNY firehouse and spew this vile nonsense. Please do report how that goes for you.
There is no NFPA or other National, or any other standard for investigating a terrorist attack with fire involving an aircraft. It was an unprecedented event, how could there be a manual for investigating it?? You moron!

I am a fire investigator but George has forgot more about investigation than I will ever know, plus he was actually on site at the World Trade Center. I think he knows what he is talking about.

WTF??? What witnesses to explosions? What recordings of so-called explosions? Elaborate on your alleged breakthrough on fire temps.

I've only been around one other FF you swallows what you swallow. He is generally considered possibly the oddest and most foolish guy guy in the 600-person dept., even without the 9/11 crap.

I ashamed of you.

Feel free to read the rest of the thread to find out how real fire-fighters view this "stuff".

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457

[JamesB]

Was there ever a debate about the cause of the fire at the WTC? I think several people saw a plane hit or something.

[ozeco41]

So, a major disaster scene needed clearing and was cleared.

In the context of what is being suggested (again) the only valid reason to preserve the Ground Zero scene would be to rule out demolition if there was any realistic suggestion that there had been demolition.

There never was any realistic claim for demolition which was ruled out from the outset - the later furore is only the creation of the truther movement and others who do not understand.

The only reasons these demolition claims are debated here and on similar forums is so that the "true truth" can be explained for the benefit of well meaning but gullible people who have been deceived by the "truther" movement.

...and possible the forlorn hope that the deliberate liars of the truther movement will accept facts.

As with committed religious creationists it is a rare day when one of the committed believers "sees the light". I do not post for them but for the gullible and misled genuine enquirers.


Plus my own amusement. ;)

[Drudgewire]

I beg to differ.


Poor pedobear. How long must he suffer from this blatant NWO oppression? :(

[dudalb]

So, a major disaster scene needed clearing and was cleared.

In the context of what is being suggested (again) the only valid reason to preserve the Ground Zero scene would be to rule out demolition if there was any realistic suggestion that there had been demolition.

There never was any realistic claim for demolition which was ruled out from the outset - the later furore is only the creation of the truther movement and others who do not understand.

The only reasons these demolition claims are debated here and on similar forums is so that the "true truth" can be explained for the benefit of well meaning but gullible people who have been deceived by the "truther" movement.

...and possible the forlorn hope that the deliberate liars of the truther movement will accept facts.

As with committed religious creationists it is a rare day when one of the committed believers "sees the light". I do not post for them but for the gullible and misled genuine enquirers.


Plus my own amusement. ;)

Jihad Jane has been known to carry on about how all the physical evidence from Ground Zero was "contaminated" and how all the evidence for the "Official Theory" was faked.

[KDLarsen]

Poor pedobear. How long must he suffer from this blatant NWO oppression? :(
I'm just slightly baffled at how P. Bear made it from /b/ to the JREF :D

[johnny karate]

Roundhead,did you ask any real fire-fighters what they thought about http://firefightersfor911truth.org/? Or the guy who runs it ?No?

roundhead is very contemptuous of firefighters (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4413684&postcount=164). Any opinions they have that disagree with his I'm sure he would write off to them being cowards too afraid to tell the truth (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4413684&postcount=164).


Feel free to read the rest of the thread to find out how real fire-fighters view this "stuff".

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457

Great stuff!

I wonder if roundhead has the courage of his convictions to share with them his wonderful theory (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4413684&postcount=164).

How about it, roundhead? The link is right there. We know you're not man enough to actually do it face-to-face, but do you at least have the stones to go to a firefighter forum and explain to the members from the FDNY you think they chose to participate in covering up the deaths of their comrades to protect their pensions?

[johnny karate]

Jihad Jane has been known to carry on.

More to the point. ;)

[Fjolle]

Roundhead,did you ask any real fire-fighters what they think about ? Or the guy who runs it ?No?

Maybe you should have...............

Feel free to read the rest of the thread to find out how real fire-fighters view this "stuff".



That is pretty much the reaction i've seen from any firefighter that i know when someone questions 9/11...

[beachnut]

From this site......

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/


Quote:

HIGH-ORDER DAMAGE”

NFPA 921

18.3.2 - “High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

We see all signs of “high-order damage” in all three building collapses. There is no arguing this. And, it’s very clearly stated “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”



Is this NFPA that is being quoted something that should be taken to heart and followed on fire investigations in the US??

This is funny! Gravity accounts for over 350 TONS of TNT energy released on 911. Your failure to understand physics shines through.

Do you understand one tower collapse energy release was over 150 TONS of TNT? This is why the WTC after collapse looks like it was bombed with 150 2000 pound bombs twice.

Energy; got physics?

It was a crime scene and evidence was collected. You must of missed the outcome! 19 terrorist killed 8 pilots and flew 3 planes into buildings; at 75 percent success the terrorist out scored you by 75 percent compared to your understanding of 911; you stand at zero; 0 percent.

[ozeco41]

Jihad Jane has been known to carry on about how all the physical evidence from Ground Zero was "contaminated" and how all the evidence for the "Official Theory" was faked.

As a newcomer to this forum I have not engaged with Jihad Jane. I am aware that her posts often seem rational and target the higher level issues with clarity BUT she is treated with insults and large measures of ignore.

I will form my own opinion in due course.

However both those claims can be shown to be not relevant.

If the question in debate is "Demolition or not?", i.e. the primary technical question for WTC, then that question can be satisfactorily answered without recourse to either "contamination" OR "faked evidence".

My own experience (1000 plus posts on the topic on another forum plus extensive off line debate with a committed conspirisist) is that these claims are deployed as "red herrings" by most truthers to avoid coming to grips with real evidence against demolition. Sometimes the tactic is deliberate mendacity others it is genuine confusion.

A specific example is the question of "thermate residue" as deployed by Jones et al. several members here are doing great work to rebut the idea. I do not have access to the dat nor the technical expertise. Nor am I all that interpreted in matters which are irrelevant. There is simply no way that thermate was deployed as a technology to assist the collapse. My position in "bold assertion" - support and justification available if required. Used here as illustration. So my position on "no demolition" does not depend on the proof or disproof of Jones claims. The matter is at best circumstantial evidence which is totally outflanked by other technical evidence.

Even if Jones claims were true it would not prove demolition - merely open another side track for speculation. (Maybe "They planned to do it but it fell too soon" :):rolleyes: )

As for the "Official Theory" I have never relied on it. One reason being that on another forum it was treated as unreliable and I sought to answer "Demolition or not" so I did so without relying on NIST etc.

There is sufficient evidence available for a civil/structural engineer to form a conclusion. Mine is "no demolition either needed or used in a way which contributed to the collapse". That is carefully constructed. there are still "loopholes" which are not relevant to the technical issue of demolition related to the actual collapse.

So, if JihadJane or some other member were to engage me in debate I would not be red herringed down dead end side roads. But I would be prepared to go around obstructions on the logical highway.

EDIT One typo

[Grizzly Bear]

From this site......

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/


Quote:

HIGH-ORDER DAMAGE”

NFPA 921

18.3.2 - “High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

We see all signs of “high-order damage” in all three building collapses. There is no arguing this. And, it’s very clearly stated “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”
So does this mean that they, and yourself by extension, believe that super powerful explosives capable of creating enough blast pressure to launch several-ton sections of structure 600 ft yet delicate enough to not blast out every window within a half mile radius of the site, and quiet enough to avoid blowing out the eardrums of nearly every bystander within a mile of the site were responsible for all of this? Or could it be in fact that this group is intentionally misleading readers by calling expected characteristic of structural failure and progressive collapse something it is not?

[Drudgewire]

:words:


Stay out of the park!! http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/fist4su.gif

[ozeco41]

So does this mean that they, and yourself by extension, believe that super powerful explosives capable of creating enough blast pressure to launch several-ton sections of structure 600 ft yet delicate enough to not blast out every window within a half mile radius of the site, and quiet enough to avoid blowing out the eardrums of nearly every bystander within a mile of the site were responsible for all of this? .....

On another forum I was confronted by a claim for "silent explosives" - which I added to my list of oxymorons.

Think about it - (if you need to :rolleyes: )!

What is sound? Pressure waves usually in air.

What is an explosion? Duh! a pressure wave in air (with a damped tail off of reflections etc.)

So soundless sound anyone? OR explosionless explosions?

Reminds me of the preparation I did for "Cracker Night" many years ago. Tested all my fireworks the day before to make sure they would work...but that is potentially a derail.

[Bobert]

Roundhead,
This is a bit off OT but I wanted to commend you and the CIT CULT and Craig's fine thread poking fun at a stoke victim.
I see you posted to that thread.
We can now add stroke victims to the list of people that the truth movement will now go after.
Well done RH!

[A W Smith]

I think its pretty evident

Why not take this to the firehouses of the FDNY? Go on. I dare you.
Coward
http://www.nycfire.net/mnfiremap

[R.Mackey]

On another forum I was confronted by a claim for "silent explosives" - which I added to my list of oxymorons.

Think about it - (if you need to :rolleyes: )!

What is sound? Pressure waves usually in air.

What is an explosion? Duh! a pressure wave in air (with a damped tail off of reflections etc.)

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Around here (and in Frostbite Falls) we call it "Hushaboom (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62850)," although here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=105423) we had a more technical discussion of silent explosives, if you could call it that.

I also should point out that during the collapses, we predict momentary forces from the collapse itself of up to 100,000 PSI, or possibly even higher. Think that could produce "high order damage?" Yup.

[Minadin]

Roundhead,did you ask any real fire-fighters what they think about http://firefightersfor911truth.org/ ? Or the guy who runs it ?No?

Maybe you should have...............


Feel free to read the rest of the thread to find out how real fire-fighters view this "stuff".

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457


That thread in the firefighters forum had some links back to this forum - pretty cool.

[AZCat]

Fortunately for all of us, NFPA recently made all their codes and standards available for free viewing (but not printing) online. If anyone is interested in checking out the context of roundhead's references, you can go to here (http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=921) and click the "View the 2008 edition of this document" link. You'll need to register, but it's pretty benign. You'll just get the NFPA catalog in the mail a couple times a year.

[ozeco41]

.... Around here (and in Frostbite Falls) we call it "Hushaboom (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62850)," although here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=105423) we had a more technical discussion of silent explosives, if you could call it that.... thanks - as a newbie late to this party I don't know the historic (or hysteric) threads on this forum. (I'm here on a sabbatical from "another place" ;) )
Two valuable threads to restore my faith in forumkind.

[jaydeehess]

And this, from the above site as well:


NFPA 921 14.3 “Preservation of the Fire Scene and Physical Evidence” we find the following “the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation. ...............”

Big frickin large, fast aircraft seen by hundreds if not thousands, hit the building. In this case is it really 'unknown'?

[Minadin]

Again from the fireman forum:

I would have to say that the sad thing about when you argue with idiots, from a distance it is hard to tell who the idiot really is.There is absolutely no problem telling who the idiots are when this issue comes up, regardless of how far away one may be.


Got me rolling.

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457&page=7

[tsig]

Poor pedobear. How long must he suffer from this blatant NWO oppression? :(

Yeah, why can't a bear ride a bicycle?

[tsig]

On another forum I was confronted by a claim for "silent explosives" - which I added to my list of oxymorons.

Think about it - (if you need to :rolleyes: )!

What is sound? Pressure waves usually in air.

What is an explosion? Duh! a pressure wave in air (with a damped tail off of reflections etc.)

So soundless sound anyone? OR explosionless explosions?

Reminds me of the preparation I did for "Cracker Night" many years ago. Tested all my fireworks the day before to make sure they would work...but that is potentially a derail.

You need military grade nano hushaboom. It's characteristics are both protean and unknown.

[ozeco41]

Yeah, why can't a bear ride a bicycle?

I'm the newbie so I don't know the local one. I do remember News Headlines saying "Bear Chases Woman on Bicycle" so they must be able to do it. :D

[Alt+F4]

What a joke! The NFPA in no way believes in any type of 9/11 conspiracy theory. Epic fail roundhead.

[jaydeehess]

You need military grade nano hushaboom. It's characteristics are both protean and unknown.

You spelled 'protein' wrong.:D

[Drudgewire]

Yeah, why can't a bear ride a bicycle?

He can drive car!

QliI9ZRUIKg

HOW CAN THAT BE??

[Sunstealer]

Yeah, why can't a bear ride a bicycle?They couldn't because their paws would slip off the pedals. That's why bear traps were invented.

It's alright, I'm on my way out and my coats near the door. :)

[Pardalis]

Keep looking, Roundhead.

:run:

[johnny karate]

Keep looking, Roundhead.

Poor little guy. He suffered such a major embarrassment, he was forced to run away from his own thread.

[roundhead]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.

BTW, i work for a living and dont spend my whole life on here like some of you parrots seem to.

[16.5]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.

That I wholly agree with! You do a fine job at it yourself. Shoveling on a couple more tons of dirt on you will probably make you cleaner than the manure you roll around in all day.

[dtugg]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.

BTW, i work for a living and dont spend my whole life on here like some of you parrots seem to.

Wow, you got us there, champ.

I'm not surprised that you don't feel embarrassed. You would have to be somewhat aware of your extreme ignorance for that to occur.

[Alt+F4]

I am a way higher life form...

Are you one of those David Icke reptilian humanoids?

[johnny karate]

Notice he didn't address the fact that actual FDNY firefighters have completely savaged the site he referenced as supposedly supported by firefighters.

[Grizzly Bear]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.
Needless to say why go through the effort when your own suffices?

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.
I'm certainly happy you're honest about your opinion of me, but frankly I don't really care if you think I'm inferior for what ever twisted reasons you have in store. In the sight you provided I looked for honesty, and what I found was essentially a regurgitation of incompetent design analysis and dishonest quote mining of a standardized document to twist it into whatever pre-fit agenda they had. There's no reason for me to look at them or yourself as credible because the information being provided by both of you is deliberately distorted...

BTW, i work for a living and dont spend my whole life on here like some of you parrots seem to.
Congratulations, I'm finishing college and entering the master's program this year. As you can well tell making unjustified assumptions doesn't help your credibility.


Notice he didn't address the fact that actual FDNY firefighters have completely savaged the site he referenced as supposedly supported by firefighters.

I wonder if he's seen the thread (http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457) yet

[jaydeehess]

Notice he didn't address the fact that actual FDNY firefighters have completely savaged the site he referenced as supposedly supported by firefighters.

I note he also ignored my comment that goes directly to this OP.
RH writes:
NFPA 921 14.3 “Preservation of the Fire Scene and Physical Evidence” we find the following “the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation. ...............”

I wrote;
Big frickin large, fast aircraft seen by hundreds if not thousands, hit the building. In this case is it really 'unknown'?

In fact of course the answer is that the cause of the fires was absolutly known. They were caused by the ignition of thousands of gallons of accellerant that entered the structures, over several floors at once, by way of the crash of large aircraft travelling at hundreds of MPH.
The largest 'explosions' were the a) impact itself which would reverberate throughout the entire building, and b) the ignition of that partially aerosolized fuel.

[kookbreaker]

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.


I've said it before, I'll say it again: Conspiracy Theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.

[jaydeehess]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.

BTW, i work for a living and dont spend my whole life on here like some of you parrots seem to.

A higher life form that does not display any better skills at typing than the vast majority of posters here.

Curious.:D

[beachnut]

Nothing you lie slurpers say on here can embarrass me.

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.

BTW, i work for a living and dont spend my whole life on here like some of you parrots seem to.
lie slurpers? That is higher life form all right; sounds like a Hitler complex to me. You need physics and you act like a NAZI superior being like the NAZIs that failed. Oops. The infest make you sound so Hitler like. Don’t you think those NAZI dolts were dirt dumb?

You work best at getting everything about 911 wrong. You are the best at that.

Most people who post here can type fast and actually have jobs and do other things. The old adage the more you do, the more you do.

But you lack the skill to understand 911. You should ask for help from the slurpers? What is a slurper? Do you superior beings; the higher life forms get a special vocabulary to make you feel more superior? Way higher?

[dudalb]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Conspiracy Theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.

Oh, you have noticied how often The CTs seem to see themselves as Neo in The Matrix waging a lone battle against a massive, evil conspiracy?

[Bobert]

Roundhead thanks for the quote in my sig that you made over at the CIT treefort.
PRICELESS!
:crazy:
Suck on one weenie, you are a weenie sucker for life

[kookbreaker]

Oh, you have noticied how often The CTs seem to see themselves as Neo in The Matrix waging a lone battle against a massive, evil conspiracy?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/xp-1.png

[parky76]

I am a way higher life form that most of the OCT slurpers that infest this place.

.

wow, do all truthers think like this? do they all think non-truthers are a lower form of life???

:confused: