Firefighters do not like the truth movement....

[debunker9145]

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457

Somebody asks about the group "firefighters for 9/11 truth" the guy who created the site logs in and gets chewed out by the rest of them. Including by a firefighter who was there at the WTC.

[Horatius]

That thread is also discussed in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140150

[twinstead]

That Koolaid guy creeps me out. He's spewing the same garbage that truthers here do, yet with an even more smarmy, patronizing, "just asking questions" attitude, if that's possible.

[beachnut]

Koolaid1 knows he is a fraud; what a name! I like this response from a rational human.

Because when you face the true facts you end up looking like just another conspiracy wack job. http://forums.firehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1047582&postcount=25

Maybe you and koolaid1 can get together and fold aluminum foil hats together for the next meeting of conspiracy wack jobs.

[johnny karate]

For those not aware, "koolaid1" is Eric Lawyer, the founder and, from what I can tell, the sole confirmed firefighter behind the shame site "Firefighters for 9/11 Truth".

[TexasJack]

I've followed the thread as well, there's a couple Seattle FF truthers that have been challenged to go to a FDNY station and present their case, so far none have taken them up on it.

[johnny karate]

I don't think it's been verified if any of those other Truthers are actually firefighters. The verified firefighters on the forum seem skeptical.

[TexasJack]

I don't think it's been verified if any of those other Truthers are actually firefighters. The verified firefighters on the forum seem skeptical.
Two have listed their name and station.

[johnny karate]

Two have listed their name and station.

Fair enough, but I don't think that proves anything. Those guys have all recently joined and haven't been established as properly vetted, as opposed to the actual firefighters on the forum who have been there for years and had no reason to lie when they joined.

[johnny karate]

Koolaid-Boy tried to reference AE911T as a "consensus" of "experts", and an actual engineer came in and gave him a smackdown. Man, this thread is great!

[parky76]

most americans do not like the truth movement. i would assume the FDNY are the same..or even more hateful of them.

but that's because they are all a bunch of government loyalist, Zionist-loving, income tax-paying, sheep.

:)

[TexasJack]

Fair enough, but I don't think that proves anything. Those guys have all recently joined and haven't been established as properly vetted, as opposed to the actual firefighters on the forum who have been there for years and had no reason to lie when they joined.

I understand, and I suspect that several recent posters are dressing up as fireman, but in reality are just low-life truthers. Those two at least listed pertinent information that can easily be verified. The fact that there are a few FF truthers doesn't suprise me, or the regular posters there. You're going to find nutcases in every profession, as pointed out by a couple firemen. They are truly embarrassed that they exist and telling them so in no uncertain terms.

[TexasJack]

Koolaid-Boy tried to reference AE911T as a "consensus" of "experts", and an actual engineer came in and gave him a smackdown. Man, this thread is great!

Yep, right here:

I was not going to waste my time responding to any more of this crap, but I saw this and could not resist.

I am a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE). ASCE has a worldwide membership of about 146,000. In my experience, about 1/3 of the engineers I have met in my 18 year career belong to ASCE. So, for the sake of argument, let’s assume there are 438,000 civil engineers in the world that would be eligible for ASCE membership (a low number).

The American Institute of Architects has a membership of about 86,000. I don't really know if their membership percentage is more or less then with ASCE, but, for the sake of argument, we will put their number at 2x their membership, 172,000.

That makes a total of 610,000 design professionals that do or would be eligible to belong to one of these organizations.

You are basing your BS on the opinion of less then 1/10 of 1% of the design professionals in the world.

And you are going to lecture me that you are right and I am wrong?

Not by a long shot there skippy.
__________________
Thomas Anthony, PE
Structures Specialist PA-TF1
Captain, ACVFD

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457&page=9

I can't believe he tried to play the AE911 card.

[Dog Town]

Two have listed their name and station.

Well a firefighter, ffbam24, of good standing in that forum, on the 13th post. Quoted this.
My buddy tells me, "Great guy and one hell of a fire fighter but that shift has been drinking the conspiracy cool aid from one of their officers."


It seems well known that the Wooo is strong there.

[parky76]

just cause you are FDNY...doesn't mean you can't be a conspiracy theorist. These guys have the highest rates of suicide and divorce of any job in the USA. its a very tough life..and seeing friends injured and die all the time can really get to you.

i wish 9-11 truthers would stay away from our brave firefighters. they deserve better then their lies and bs.

[3bodyproblem]

GeorgeWendtCFI: I watched it, heard it, smelled it and saw it fall. You are 100% completely, totally positvely wrong on every single count.

For the people who were there the topic doesn't appear to be up for debate. It's simply a matter of fact.

[parky76]

there is wtc dust in my lungs. anyone wanna check them for thermite residue?

=)

[MarkyX]

I sooo want to register there just to show the Richard Gage cardboard box video.

[WildCat]

I sooo want to register there just to show the Richard Gage cardboard box video.
I might register there just to ask them to please not delete that thread (as some members seem to want) so we can reference it when some truther shows up fluffing Lawyer's site or claims they have the support of firefighters.

[16.5]

Wow, the guy in charge of that Firefighter v. 911 site is a real truther. Typical truther, absolute shot gun blather of repeatedly debunked garbage and cites to garbage sites like Patriots for Truth. He is now going on and on about Quintiere apparently unaware that he thinks 911 truthers are completely wrong.

This guy is borderline delusional

[Grizzly Bear]

He is now going on and on about Quintiere apparently unaware that he thinks 911 truthers are completely wrong.
What the? Am I reading this right... he's saying the guy is unaware of what he thinks? :eye-poppi

[ozeco41]

Borderline?????? :d ;)

[TexasJack]

This is one of my favorite lines:

Your serial dumbassery is astounding.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yowch. It's like the Charge of the Sock Brigade in there. You notice how a couple of the Seattle truthy 'firefighters' end all their diatribes with the last couple paragraphs in bold?

Methinks it's one person. They're all armed with the same information. Which makes me think, is there some sort of master text grimoire loaded with bullet-pointed 'facts' supporting the truther's cause? That would get tiresome typing all that out. It's gotta be some enormous 1.2MB text file just full of the bunk.

[WildCat]

Yowch. It's like the Charge of the Sock Brigade in there. You notice how a couple of the Seattle truthy 'firefighters' end all their diatribes with the last couple paragraphs in bold?

Methinks it's one person. They're all armed with the same information. Which makes me think, is there some sort of master text grimoire loaded with bullet-pointed 'facts' supporting the truther's cause? That would get tiresome typing all that out. It's gotta be some enormous 1.2MB text file just full of the bunk.
Truthers would be nothing if not for the copy/paste feature of computers.

[JoeyDonuts]

It also makes me never want to own any property in Seattle. If it burned down, they'd spend three weeks having Richard Gage look for explosives.

[johnny karate]

The monumental beatdown going on over there is ceaselessly entertaining. :D

I would like to echo the sentiment that that thread never be taken down to stand as a stark reminder of just how far removed from reality Truthers really are.

I for one will be linking to it every single time one of our neighborhood kooks so much as hints at a topic even remotely related to the FDNY. And I predict we will see an end to a such topics being broached by the Truthers here as their rampant intellectual cowardice forces them to avoid anything that might challenge their dogma.

[1337m4n]

I just hurt myself. I fell off the chair laughing. This friggin' moron is lecturing ME about NFPA 921. ME!

You may not be hear to name call and insult, but I am. You are a loser, pal. I challenge you to walk into anyf firehouse in NYC and spew this nonsense. Just make sure that you leave good info as to what you want done with your remains (not a threat, but a prediction).

And, just so I fit into your little model, here...I was standing with several hundred other fire fighters outside Manhattan Community College when 7 fell. I watched it, heard it, smelled it and saw it fall. You are 100% completely, totally positvely wrong on every single count.

http://macroblog.typepad.com/macroblog/images/win_button.jpg

[1337m4n]

That really is an excellent thread. Maybe Red-"the firefighters just accepted the official explanation because it sounded plausible"-Ibis would like to register at that forum and ask them some questions.

[Alt+F4]

The monumental beatdown going on over there is ceaselessly entertaining. :D

Indeed! In response to koolaid boy lecturing the firefighters on boxboys numbers:

I was not going to waste my time responding to any more of this crap, but I saw this and could not resist.

I am a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE). ASCE has a worldwide membership of about 146,000. In my experience, about 1/3 of the engineers I have met in my 18 year career belong to ASCE. So, for the sake of argument, let’s assume there are 438,000 civil engineers in the world that would be eligible for ASCE membership (a low number).

The American Institute of Architects has a membership of about 86,000. I don't really know if their membership percentage is more or less then with ASCE, but, for the sake of argument, we will put their number at 2x their membership, 172,000.

That makes a total of 610,000 design professionals that do or would be eligible to belong to one of these organizations.

You are basing your BS on the opinion of less then 1/10 of 1% of the design professionals in the world.

And you are going to lecture me that you are right and I am wrong?

Not by a long shot there skippy.
__________________
Thomas Anthony, PE
Structures Specialist PA-TF1
Captain, ACVFD

[BigAl]

Two have listed their name and station.

NY firefighters? If so, names, please.

[roundhead]

Quote:
I was not going to waste my time responding to any more of this crap, but I saw this and could not resist.

I am a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE). ASCE has a worldwide membership of about 146,000. In my experience, about 1/3 of the engineers I have met in my 18 year career belong to ASCE. So, for the sake of argument, let’s assume there are 438,000 civil engineers in the world that would be eligible for ASCE membership (a low number).

The American Institute of Architects has a membership of about 86,000. I don't really know if their membership percentage is more or less then with ASCE, but, for the sake of argument, we will put their number at 2x their membership, 172,000.

That makes a total of 610,000 design professionals that do or would be eligible to belong to one of these organizations.

You are basing your BS on the opinion of less then 1/10 of 1% of the design professionals in the world.

And you are going to lecture me that you are right and I am wrong?

Not by a long shot there skippy.
__________________
Thomas Anthony, PE
Structures Specialist PA-TF1
Captain, ACVFD



Kindly point me to the poll that shows that every ACSE member has voted Anti truth ?

Link please???


The largest group i know of that has taken an official stance one way or the other is AE911

[debunker9145]

NY firefighters? If so, names, please.

No they are Seattle Firefighters. I think there was one Chicago firefighter that posted that believed this stuff.

[johnny karate]

Kindly point me to the poll that shows that every ACSE member has voted Anti truth ?

Link please???


The largest group i know of that has taken an official stance one way or the other is AE911

I know understanding things isn't your strong suit, but if you'll read carefully what Anthony had to say, you'll see he doesn't making any statements regarding what non-AE911 engineers do or do not believe. He merely points out the statistical insignificance of AE911's membership, thus making any claims that they have a "consensus" profoundly fraudulent. Kind of like every other claim made by you and the ridiculous "movement" you champion.

[TexasJack]

Kindly point me to the poll that shows that every ACSE member has voted Anti truth ?

Link please???


The largest group i know of that has taken an official stance one way or the other is AE911

That's like asking, show me a poll of scientitsts that think the earth is round.

[roundhead]

I know understanding things isn't your strong suit, but if you'll read carefully what Anthony had to say, you'll see he doesn't making any statements regarding what non-AE911 engineers do or do not believe. He merely points out the statistical insignificance of AE911's membership, thus making any claims that they have a "consensus" profoundly fraudulent. Kind of like every other claim made by you and the ridiculous "movement" you champion.


The truth likely is that 90% of those engineers arent aware of 9/11 in much of any way, since probably a week after it was over.


Heck i bet a sizeable portion of the population doesnt know North Carolina is the NCAA basketball champs less than two weeks ago.


The fact is, people are passionate about 9/11, those who are passionate about it, the largest group on one side or the other is AE911.

[firecoins]

That's like asking, show me a poll of scientitsts that think the earth is round.
100%

[TexasJack]

The fact is, people are passionate about 9/11, those who are passionate about it, the largest group on one side or the other is AE911.

Just like the people who are passionate, one way or the other, whether the earth being round or not, the largest group on either side, is the Flat-Earth Society.

[beachnut]

Kindly point me to the poll that shows that every ACSE member has voted Anti truth ?

Link please???


The largest group i know of that has taken an official stance one way or the other is AE911
ACSE said AE911 guys are dolts with no real evidence.

[johnny karate]

The truth likely is that 90% of those engineers arent aware of 9/11 in much of any way, since probably a week after it was over.

Yeah, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the world's engineer's simply aren't aware of the most significant engineering-related event in recent history (despite the fact that Richard Gage has been actively campaigning their industry for support for years).

Heck i bet a sizeable portion of the population doesnt know North Carolina is the NCAA basketball champs less than two weeks ago.

Great analogy. :rolleyes:

Now apply it to the population of people who are involved in and/or follow college basketball. I bet your numbers might go up a bit.

The fact is, people are passionate about 9/11, those who are passionate about it, the largest group on one side or the other is AE911.

Here's your chance to be a hero (http://www.asce.org/contact.cfm). Be sure and let us know the reply you get when you inform one of the world's largest engineering organizations that the reason they don't support your movment is because they must not follow engineering-related issues too closely.

[Tweeter]

just cause you are FDNY...doesn't mean you can't be a conspiracy theorist. These guys have the highest rates of suicide and divorce of any job in the USA. its a very tough life..and seeing friends injured and die all the time can really get to you.

i wish 9-11 truthers would stay away from our brave firefighters. they deserve better then their lies and bs.

Good points.
What kind of crazy would believe half of these drunken, cheating, ready to commit suicide people. Same for the police. Can you say drones? I really dont think any of you really know the mental state of these "heroes", but you`ll believe them anyways.

[beachnut]

Good points.
What kind of crazy ....
So you believe 911Truth? The FD forum made some good points. Why are 911Truth ideas from the pit of ignorance?

Good for you to spew junk from the safety of your mom's computer; why not take your ideas to FDNY?

[parky76]

Good points.
What kind of crazy would believe half of these drunken, cheating, ready to commit suicide people. Same for the police. Can you say drones? I really dont think any of you really know the mental state of these "heroes", but you`ll believe them anyways.

nice strawman arguments you got there.

[Grizzly Bear]

That's pretty damn offensive, not to mention mind-bogglingly retarded.
I've actually spoken with quite a few of my friends in the University Architecture design studios, and they are abundantly aware of this material. I've also been in conversation with a number of the studio instructors I've done my work under, and of course the instructor whom taught the materials in Structures I & II... The most witnessed event in history -- especially in the areas this deals with -- virtually any engineer, architect, studio instructor, & student I've been in conversation with on this puts that statement six ft under ....

[tsig]

The truth likely is that 90% of those engineers arent aware of 9/11 in much of any way, since probably a week after it was over.


Heck i bet a sizeable portion of the population doesnt know North Carolina is the NCAA basketball champs less than two weeks ago.


The fact is, people are passionate about 9/11, those who are passionate about it, the largest group on one side or the other is AE911.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.' (Yeats)

[Baby Nemesis]

Something seems rather strange. Firefighters are outraged by Truthers' claims, presumably because they're claiming that firefighters took part in the demolition of WTC7 while there were still people in it so they're guilty of manslaughter - is that the conspiracy story? Outraged that they're being accused of manslaughter, they ... snarl that if ever a Truther dares say that in the presence of the New York fire brigade, ... they will be gruesomely murdered.

You may not be hear to name call and insult, but I am. You are a loser, pal. I challenge you to walk into anyf firehouse in NYC and spew this nonsense.
Just make sure that you leave good info as to what you want done with your remains (not a threat, but a prediction).

Strange indeed.

[Fjolle]

Is there a group of engineers that does not support the conspiration theories? If there is I would be glad to sign up.

[atecom]

"Something seems rather strange. Firefighters are outraged by Truthers' claims, presumably because they're claiming that firefighters took part in the demolition of WTC7 while there were still people in it so they're guilty of manslaughter - is that the conspiracy story? Outraged that they're being accused of manslaughter, they ... snarl that if ever a Truther dares say that in the presence of the New York fire brigade, ... they will be gruesomely murdered."



The difference being that certain truthers are really accusing them of murder, Whereas the Fire department were not being serious

[lapman]

Is there a group of engineers that does not support the conspiration theories? If there is I would be glad to sign up.
I think their office is right next to the Round Earth Society's.

[johnny karate]

I think their office is right next to the Round Earth Society's.

Actually they've moved. They're now across the street from the Institute for Zoologists Who Publicly Proclaim Unicorns Don't Exist.

[Alt+F4]

Something seems rather strange. Firefighters are outraged by Truthers' claims, presumably because they're claiming that firefighters took part in the demolition of WTC7 while there were still people in it so they're guilty of manslaughter - is that the conspiracy story? Outraged that they're being accused of manslaughter, they ... snarl that if ever a Truther dares say that in the presence of the New York fire brigade, ... they will be gruesomely murdered.

What are you babbling about? How could "truthers" claim that the FDNY was guilty of manslaughter due to the destruction of WTC 7 when no one died in that building?

Please provide evidence that any member of the FDNY said they would "gruesomely murder" someone who accused them of manslaughter regarding a building in which no one died.

[lapman]

Actually they've moved. They're now across the street from the Institute for Zoologists Who Publicly Proclaim Unicorns Don't Exist.
Oh, isn't that next to the Hetero Pride building?

[Baby Nemesis]

What are you babbling about? How could "truthers" claim that the FDNY was guilty of manslaughter due to the destruction of WTC 7 when no one died in that building?

Please provide evidence that any member of the FDNY said they would "gruesomely murder" someone who accused them of manslaughter regarding a building in which no one died.

Wow! Interesting. Are you suggesting that people have "predicted" in so many words that the New York City fire brigade would gruesomely murder any Truther who met them and started talking about conspiracy theories, even though Truthers don't even generally accuse them of anything as serious as manslaughter? I thought that although no one was in WTC7 when it collapsed, some conspiracy theorists claimed there were people in there, and said the fire brigade helped demolish the building even though there were, and that's why the firefighters are angry with them. See my old thread: Irresponsible tabloid-style journalism and Barry Jennings. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=125090) Silly me, putting two and two together and making four and-a-half again!

But I would like to know, if they're not being accused of manslaughter/murder by most Truthers, what the heck is making them so angry they're threatening to murder Truthers - even if they're being hyperbolic.

[ElMondoHummus]

Is there a group of engineers that does not support the conspiration theories? If there is I would be glad to sign up.

It's not like there's any organized group on this topic. In the engineering world, the collapse happened because of the impact and fires, and the narrative set forth by NIST is so far the best supported one to date. Structural as well as fire safety engineers, tall structure architects, and other construction and safety experts don't appear to feel the need to organize against some fringe group using distortions and pseudoscience to peddle their delusions. It's sort of like geologists vs. Flat Earthers: Where's the group of geoscientists who are organized against that?

But you can get a sense of who's actually, openly siding with the fires plus impact narrative (and therefore opposing the conspiracy peddler's fantasies) by finding engineers who've actually discussed or done work on the topic. Truthers dismiss the NIST 9/11 research team (http://wtc.nist.gov/pi/) as "government employees" (or worse), but a rational individual should note their stance on the issue above and beyond their employment. Their mandate was to study the collapse, not support someone else's idea of what was involved, and truthers have yet to come up with a better argument than "employment" to support their implication of collusion in the supposed conspiracy.

It should be noted that no one from NIST has "whistleblown" regarding any supposed slanting or coverup. No, I'm sorry, that "Bob the Builder" idiot in that one thread here doesn't count.

The participants in the initial FEMA "Building Performance Study" (http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_cover-toc.pdf) (link is to PDF; page 3 lists the team members) should also be considered. Their work has been superceded by the NIST report, but the FEMA BPS provided the foundation for people to approach the collapse. Plus, as far as I know, it's still the only work detailing the damage to some of the peripheral buildings (WTC 4, 5, and 6, Bankers Trust, World Financial Center, etc.; I'm amenable to correction on that if I'm wrong).

Outside of NIST and FEMA are the engineers and fire safety experts who've talked to Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=9) for their article and book. They've directly spoken on specific conspiracy fantasies, and have yet to meet substantial rebuttal from the conspiracy fantasists (no, stupid dismissals about the publishers doesn't cut it. Nor does Hoffman's attempt at critique (I've never seen a "critique" contain so many points of agreement, and have so little support for their contradictory claims)).

Others have ignored (as far as I can tell) the conspiracy fantasies, and have instead done direct work on elements of the collapse. The Purdue team that simulated the impacts (http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/phase3/) is one example of this. The above listed University of Edinburgh researchers are others. MIT Civil and Environmental Engineering professors Oral Buyukozturk and Oguz Gunes have lectured on the Twin Towers collapse before (here's a link to a pdf of their PowerPoint presentation used at their lecture (http://web.mit.edu/istgroup/ist/documents/EFCA2004_Istanbul04.pdf)). Other MIT academics have written essays on the collapse (http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/Towers%20Lost%20&%20Beyond.pdf), but while they're far from being actual studies, they're far better supported and far more rigorous than anything from the truther's side.

Debunking 9/11 has some links to journal articles near the bottom of this link (http://debunking911.com/links.htm). And I know I haven't even scratched the surface of scholars and others who've researched and spoken about the collapses from a rational standpoint. There are more writings from just MIT on the subject, our posting member named Architect has mentioned Arup's company, I think Ryan Mackey has mentioned some other groups who've done studies on isolated elements... the list goes on.

Anyway, the ultimate point here is that you'll probably have no luck finding an organization created simply to oppose the engineering fantasies from the 9/11 "Truth" movement. There's not really any need for one, just like there's no real need for one opposing, say, Ptolemaic cosmology. The default position is already established, and the objections to the central thesis are disproven.

[Alt+F4]

But I would like to know, if they're not being accused of manslaughter/murder by most Truthers, what the heck is making them so angry they're threatening to murder Truthers - even if they're being hyperbolic.

Please provide evidence that any member of the FDNY has threatened to murder anyone from the "truth" movement.

No one died in WTC 7.

[Baby Nemesis]

Please provide evidence that any member of the FDNY has threatened to murder anyone from the "truth" movement.

No one died in WTC 7.

I didn't say any of them had personally threatened to kill someone. I quoted from that firefighters' thread, where one firefighter who'd watched one of the buildings collapse told the Truther who joined the thread that if he talked about his conspiracy theories to any of the New York City fire brigades, he'd better tell them first how he wanted his remains dealt with, and that he wasn't making a threat, but a prediction. The reason I used the word "gruesome" was because he used the word "remains" rather than "body".

I was guilty of generalising/using careless wording in my previous post where I used the word "they" as if they all felt that way. But I've not only read that sentiment there, but also on the board here, more than once. So my question was for anyone who feels that way about what the firefighters would do, not just firefighters themselves.

And I didn't say there was anyone in WTC7 when it collapsed. Never have I said that. I said, in my latest feat of putting two and two together and making four-and-a-half, that I'd assumed Truthers claimed that, and that was what was making the firefighters angry. Perhaps most Truthers don't claim that at all. But then I'm baffled as to just what would make any firefighter so angry he'd prophesy death to any Truther who started talking about conspiracy theories to any NYC firefighters.

[boloboffin]

The Seattle Fire Department is fast becoming the byword that the Dallas police were in the Kennedy assassination.

[beachnut]

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457

Somebody asks about the group "firefighters for 9/11 truth" the guy who created the site logs in and gets chewed out by the rest of them. Including by a firefighter who was there at the WTC.
Good post by the rational; silly posts by the dolts pushing the lies of 911Truth.

They are talking now about the site. Some interesting ideas.

I want to thank the FDNY for working hard on 911 and going into the unknown to save lives.

I want to remind the terrorist they are stupid and dead, but they were smarter than 911Truth.

[Tricky]

I've selected about 25 posts to move to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140480) from this thread which were personal attacks, bickering or replying to same. If you wish to continue to discuss this topic, then please discuss this topic, not each other.

[Slayhamlet]

Something seems rather strange. Firefighters are outraged by Truthers' claims, presumably because they're claiming that firefighters took part in the demolition of WTC7 while there were still people in it so they're guilty of manslaughter - is that the conspiracy story? Outraged that they're being accused of manslaughter, they ... snarl that if ever a Truther dares say that in the presence of the New York fire brigade, ... they will be gruesomely murdered.



Strange indeed.

Not strange. Many people here have expressed the exact same sentiment. Asking someone what they want done with their remains is a common hyperbolic expression that means little more than "you will get beat up bad".

[Comsat Angel]

The truth likely is that 90% of those engineers arent aware of 9/11 in much of any way, since probably a week after it was over.


Heck i bet a sizeable portion of the population doesnt know North Carolina is the NCAA basketball champs less than two weeks ago.


The fact is, people are passionate about 9/11, those who are passionate about it, the largest group on one side or the other is AE911.

Sir, in the long history of Stupid, I find that your post is the #1.

I could debunk it, but there would be not sport in it.

[Alt+F4]

But then I'm baffled as to just what would make any firefighter so angry he'd prophesy death to any Truther who started talking about conspiracy theories to any NYC firefighters.

What are you baffled about? No FDNY firefighter has threatened any "truther" with violence. Provide evidence or please stop with this nonsense.

[Baby Nemesis]

What are you baffled about? No FDNY firefighter has threatened any "truther" with violence. Provide evidence or please stop with this nonsense.

I don't believe you're even reading properly. I suspect you haven't read anything I've written properly from the beginning, judging by your offbeat and unnecessarily defensive responses.

I provided the quote before. You obviously didn't like to hear it. But stop pretending it doesn't exist. That's just silly. Other people have behaved in a more mature way by explaining that yes, people did say it, but they were being hyperbolic, or weren't being serious. Slayhamlet has explained that yes, that kind of thing gets said a lot on this very site, I mean this kind of thing - "Try saying that at a New York City fire station and see if you come out in one piece" - that kind of thing. He said the thing about asking people what they wanted done with their remains wasn't really a threat that they'd be killed, but a common hyperbolic expression that they were going to be "beat up bad". While that's better than murder, obviously, I still wonder why firefighters would be angry enough to do that to them.

Still, at least some people aren't actually trying to deny the quote exists.

It's stupid of you to pretend the quotes don't exist when they clearly do. It certainly doesn't do anything for your credibility! Far better to try to explain them, as others have, or be quiet and let others do so if you can't.

Again, as I said, I wasn't claiming it was a one-on-one personal threat, as you seem to imagine. ... More like a prediction of several dozens onto one. :/

And please don't say anything else without actually reading what I've written first. You can't possibly hope to get through to me if you just keep up with this silly "Just stop this nonsense" line.

[Alt+F4]

I provided the quote before.

That quote was not made by a member of the FDNY. Epic failure on your part trying to prove that any member of the FDNY has threatened a "truther" with death.

If OTHER persons say that a member of the FDNY said something that doesn't mean that a member of the FDNY said it. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

No "truther" has ever claimed they were threatened with death by a member of the FDNY for anything having to do with 9/11.

[ULTIMA1]

Weren't firefighters the fisrt group to demand a REAL investgation into 9/11?

[Dog Town]

Weren't firefighters the fisrt group to demand a REAL investgation into 9/11?

Once again, if you paid attention, you would know that is what started this thread. Some analyst! Pfffttt....

ETA:Wow you edited it while I was checking messages.
You originally had a link to 911firefighters! Bizarre!
Why did you change your entire post?

[ULTIMA1]

Once again, if you paid attention, you would know that is what started this thread. Some analyst! Pfffttt....

Then why are their disagreements?

[Alt+F4]

Weren't firefighters the fisrt group to demand a REAL investgation into 9/11?

No.

[Baby Nemesis]

That quote was not made by a member of the FDNY. Epic failure on your part trying to prove that any member of the FDNY has threatened a "truther" with death.

If OTHER persons say that a member of the FDNY said something that doesn't mean that a member of the FDNY said it. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

No "truther" has ever claimed they were threatened with death by a member of the FDNY for anything having to do with 9/11.

Epic failure on your part in not actually reading what I said properly ... again. Stupid hyper-defensiveness on your part in that you assume, with absolutely no evidence, that I'm trying to "prove" anything at all. I was simply commenting on something in hopes of an explanation. Most people here seem to have gathered that.

Whether he's a member of the New York fire department or not, I don't know, and I don't care. I didn't claim he was. If you go back and read what I originally said, carefully this time, then you'll realise that. All I know is that the one who made the dire prediction is a firefighter who actually saw one of the WTC buildings collapse, although he wasn't helping on the day, and that for some reason, he apparently feels absolutely certain that if the Truther who started Firefighters for 9/11 Truth starts saying what he said on the forum under discussion in this thread to any of the New York City fire brigades, he'd better tell them first what he wants done with his remains.

You haven't explained how you know the person who said that wasn't actually a member of the FDNY. I won't demand you provide evidence of your claim as per your own style, because Whether he was or not is actually irrelevant. What would matter is whether he's spoken to many people who are; and judging by the facts that his location is in the near vicinity, that he was close enough to watch a WTC building collapse, and he's spent years on a forum for firefighters where the discussion of Truthers has come up before, he might well be echoing a sentiment he's heard expressed before. But since I never claimed that anyone who was actually in the FDNY is threatening someone with death - again, a detail you'll grasp if you go back and read more carefully, it may be that he knows no one and he was just pulling an empty comment out of his hat. But most of the firefighters in that thread seemed rather angry.

Still, if he was just talking empty bluster, all that needs to happen is that someone here politely suggests that. If you have evidence that that's the case and you'd done that instead of engaging in your current behaviour, this discussion could have remained reasonable and polite, and you would have actually managed to get a decent point across, rather than just being antagonistic. I don't know why you want to turn this into an adversarial argument. There's no need. I simply wondered why any firefighter would think that would happen. A couple of people gave me explanations. I was satisfied. But then you come along and have to turn it into a quarrel.

Frankly, if the man who made those predictions of harm wasn't a member of the FDNY and has never spoken to anyone who is, then he's doing them rather a disservice in suggesting they're the kind of people who'd beat up a Truther just for talking about their beliefs.

And that's just how I feel when I read such sentiments on this board. Why do some people here, - debunkers at that, - do the FDNY such a grave disservice as to warn dire physical consequences to any Truther who wanders in and starts talking about their theories? I thought you lot were supposed to be defending them.

[johnny karate]

If you truly want to understand why a member of the FDNY would be offended by Truthers and their "theories" you would have read the thread linked in the OP. There you will find many of examples of Truthers basically telling FDNY firefighters they are wrong about the traumatic events those firefighters experienced, and positing alternative explanations that imply cowardice, stupidity, or complicity on the part of the FDNY.

Anger is a normal human response. Threats of violence, whether serious or not, tend to often accompany anger. Again, a normal human response. I'm not saying this is wrong or right, just that it is. Whatever "strangeness" you read into this scenario is just something with which you'll have to learn to live.

[johnny karate]

Then why are their disagreements?

"Firefighters for 9/11 Truth" is basically one guy from Seattle, and maybe a couple of others.

There are 12,000 firefighters in the FDNY alone. Not one of them supports the Truth Movement.

In a large enough population, you'll always find someone irrational and delusional enough to believe in nonsense.

So far, maybe a half dozen firefighters (none of whom were anywhere near New York on 9/11) are on record as being in "disagreement".

How anyone could interpret this as even being remotely significant is beyond me.


ETA: Besides, you've previously accused the FDNY of complicity in the destruction of WTC7 ( http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4097553&postcount=24). Why are you suddenly so concerned with what they think?

[Baby Nemesis]

If you truly want to understand why a member of the FDNY would be offended by Truthers and their "theories" you would have read the thread linked in the OP. There you will find many of examples of Truthers basically telling FDNY firefighters they are wrong about the traumatic events those firefighters experienced, and positing alternative explanations that imply cowardice, stupidity, or complicity on the part of the FDNY.

Anger is a normal human response. Threats of violence, whether serious or not, tend to often accompany anger. Again, a normal human response. I'm not saying this is wrong or right, just that it is. Whatever "strangeness" you read into this scenario is just something with which you'll have to learn to live.

Fair enough. I read the beginning of the post by that Truther from Firefighters for 9/11 Truth who joined the forum to put his point of view, and it seemed polite and innocuous enough, but it seemed long and boring, so I didn't read most of it. Perhaps it got more controversial after I stopped reading. I'll have another look.

[triforcharity]

I submitted a FOIA request some time ago, and have found that those two idiots from Seattle are in fact firefighters for SFD. BUT, at the bottom, was this disclaimer.

SFD does not support the ideas of these firefighters. We do not support their ideas in any way, shape, or form.

[TexasJack]

I submitted a FOIA request some time ago, and have found that those two idiots from Seattle are in fact firefighters for SFD. BUT, at the bottom, was this disclaimer.

SFD does not support the ideas of these firefighters. We do not support their ideas in any way, shape, or form.

There are nut jobs in every profession, but if you look at the percentage in each, it is very minuscule.

[johnny karate]

Have those Seattle firefighters who publically disagree with the official version lost their pensions yet? If not, I think it's fair to say the NWO Seattle Branch is not pulling their weight.

[johnny karate]

After perusing the thread linked in the OP (man, is it great... I'm so glad they didn't delete it), I noticed there's been some activity since this thread fizzled out. Most notable are a few posts by "RainierTruckie", identifying himself as Lance Fisher of the Seattle Fire Department. He joined in with the usual tripe about the "North of Citgo" claim one of the CIT water-carriers showed up to push, and scolded a few of the "professional debunkers" (an odd, and insulting, moniker to assign your fellow firefighters, some of whom were actually there on 9/11) for their lack of decorum.

After a few posts by him, GeorgeWendtCFI, one of the leading smackdown dispensers in the thread, chimes in with this:

I have done something that I have never done before. But these mutts called me out.

I just fired off an email to the Chief of the Seattle FD inviting him to visit this forum. I asked him, that since these mutts were representing themselves as Seattle Fire Fighters, is their behavior condoned and endorsed by the Seattle Fire Department?

I generally would discourage someone from doing this. But, since they called me out, I thought that the admin. of the Seattle FD ought to be aware of the manner in which these three mutts are representing the other 1,000 members who serve proudly.

I realize that some of you won't like what I did. Too bad.

And guess what?

There were no more posts by RainierTruckie after that.

:D

[dropzone]

In regular life, outside of work, your beliefs and opinions shouldn't matter. At work or regarding work is a different story, so I usually use a pseudonym. No need for either my bosses or me to apologize.

[triforcharity]

But, if you are using your company name to lend credibility to your cause, and that company does NOT support that cause, than it should be dealt with. Just like with Richard Gage and the AIA logo on his stuff. It INSINUATED that AIA supported him, when in fact they did not. See where I am going??

Its a little different when you work in the public sector. Everything that you do, or don't do, with that uniform on, is representing that department. You do not disgrace your department, that is one of the rules. They did not abide by it, and most likely received a stern "KNOW IT OFF" from the LT or the Capt.

[triforcharity]

Have those Seattle firefighters who publically disagree with the official version lost their pensions yet? If not, I think it's fair to say the NWO Seattle Branch is not pulling their weight.


No, in fact, they are still employed, and they have had no formal discipline levied against them. I FOIA'ed that also.

[johnny karate]

No need for either my bosses or me to apologize.

But, if you are using your company name to lend credibility to your cause, and that company does NOT support that cause, than it should be dealt with.

Exactly. Even more egregious than these chowderheads going around using their positions on the Seattle Fire Department as an implied appeal to authority is the outright fraud of starting a website called "Firefighters for 9/11 Truth" and pretending it represents some kind of consensus.

[scott.in.taiwan]

In regular life, outside of work, your beliefs and opinions shouldn't matter. At work or regarding work is a different story, so I usually use a pseudonym. No need for either my bosses or me to apologize.

This isn't the same as expressing a difference of opinion on current events. If an educator advocates child sex or drug use, I doubt they'll last long. I doubt any of us could openly be members of racist groups, either. The mentally ill are barred from numerous jobs. I can on and on like this.

Firefighters who openly support 911 Truth by claiming they have some moral position as firefighters do not have a right to that job.