Do you believe in an afterlife?

[malcolmxwarrior]

Yes
no

Do you take a sort of agnostic approach to it as in knowing is un-knowable. You will never know?

I see it that there is something after this. Therefore an after-life.

Whatever it is we are doing here, whatever you wanna call it, I think there is something after this.

I will be gone. The body, the brain, the face... all gone.

But I, whatever I am, will be somewhere else. I will not be back. I will be somewhere else. [/Rambling

[Hokulele]

No.

[MattusMaximus]

I don't know, because I've never been dead, but if I had to lay a big bet I'd say no.

In fact, I'm willing to bet my life on it :)

[Lensman]

I say "NO!" too.

[Galaxie]

Nope.

Is your afterlife infinite? If so, how will you deal with the inevitable boredom?

[SusanB-M1]

Decidedly No.

And may I just add something I've probably written before that if I'm wrong, I am going to establish an Escape Committee immediately.I hope all will join.)

[Mr Clingford]

Yes, but I may be wrong. I don't know what it might be like but I see eternity as an endless 'now' kind of thing, with no yesterday, no tomorrow so no boredom. Heaven, by its very nature, can't be boring or it wouldn't be heavenly.

[Mr Clingford]

Decidedly No.

And may I just add something I've probably written before that if I'm wrong, I am going to establish an Escape Committee immediately.I hope all will join.)If the afterlife is heavenly you wouldn't want to escape!

[godless dave]

No.

[Rasmus]

Yes
no

Do you take a sort of agnostic approach to it as in knowing is un-knowable. You will never know?

"No."

I do know that - at least in a world where "knowing" has a distinct and useful meaning.

I see it that there is something after this. Therefore an after-life.

Oh, there will be a lot after *this*. Only I won*t be there to notice it happening.

Whatever it is we are doing here, whatever you wanna call it, I think there is something after this.

Why? What evidence do you have for that assumption?

I will be gone. The body, the brain, the face... all gone.

But I, whatever I am, will be somewhere else. I will not be back. I will be somewhere else. [/Rambling

What are you, besides your brain?

[godless dave]

The "I" that "lives" is my human body. My experience of being I is in my brain. When it's gone, I'm gone.

[Third Eye Open]

If consciousness works the way i think it does, and there are infinite universes, then yes, I could imagine a type of afterlife. It isn't one I would want though...

[Rodibidably]

On Planet X there is no "Life"; All existance is ONLY an afterlife...

[Vic Vega]

No, and nothing I have yet seen or heard has caused me to doubt my belief.

[Ron_Tomkins]

The word itself is already an oxymoron, and thus one fundamental proof of the inability for most human beings to cope with the concept of death

[Nogbad]

On balance, probably not

[TX50]

If there is an afterlife and it is "heaven", why do we have to have this life
first? Why not just go straight to the heavenly stuff?

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I do think this "three-score-
and-ten" is absolutely all we get, though. So carpe diem, folks!

[malcolmxwarrior]

Nope.

Is your afterlife infinite? If so, how will you deal with the inevitable boredom?

I thought about that. Nothing is forever. That would be hell!

Atheists can believe in an afterlife FYI.

[godless dave]

The word itself is already an oxymoron, and thus one fundamental proof of the inability for most human beings to cope with the concept of death


Well put.

[malcolmxwarrior]

The word itself is already an oxymoron, and thus one fundamental proof of the inability for most human beings to cope with the concept of death

an afterlife means exactly that. After whatever this is. There is something else.

The mayan belief that there are no ends, just new beginnings.

If you believe that you die and rot in the ground and that's all, that's a pretty arrogant approach to the issue. Unless you take an agnostic approach.

[Lonewulf]

No.

[Lonewulf]

If you believe that you die and rot in the ground and that's all, that's a pretty arrogant approach to the issue.

Or an honest one.

And it's no more arrogant than saying "there's life after death".

[malcolmxwarrior]

"No."

I do know that - at least in a world where "knowing" has a distinct and useful meaning.



Oh, there will be a lot after *this*. Only I won*t be there to notice it happening.



Why? What evidence do you have for that assumption?


What are you, besides your brain?

I don't know. Like, where were you in 1825? Where was I in 1825?

like, what if mike tyson used to be george washington!

You know, George died but his soul? Came back as Iron Mike?

[godless dave]

If you believe that you die and rot in the ground and that's all, that's a pretty arrogant approach to the issue.

How is that arrogant? Life is biology. Cognition is biology. When an animal dies, it's no longer alive. When it's no longer alive, it's no longer thinking. How does "afterlife" even make any sense?

[godless dave]

I don't know. Like, where were you in 1825? Where was I in 1825?

I wasn't born yet.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Or an honest one.

And it's no more arrogant than saying "there's life after death".

I don't think so.

To say you know for sure is arrogant.

Besides, I never said there was "life" after death. I said there could be an after-life. Whatever we are doing here(living,killing time whatever), there is something after this. No ends, just new beginnings!

I die tomorrow for example. Not knowing what happens after this event, I believe that there is something after. A change so to speak.

[Lonewulf]

I don't know. Like, where were you in 1825? Where was I in 1825?

like, what if mike tyson used to be george washington!

You know, George died but his soul? Came back as Iron Mike?

Uh.... did you take your meds recently?

[Lonewulf]

I don't think so.

To say you know for sure is arrogant. I go by what the evidence shows. If you can show any evidence for the soul or the afterlife, please do so.

To my mind, saying "I don't have any reason to believe in something, but I still believe it as reality" seems more arrogant; like reality should cater to your whim.

Besides, I never said there was "life" after death. I said there could be an after-life. Whatever we are doing here(living,killing time whatever), there is something after this. No ends, just new beginnings!That's pretty much what I meant by "life after death". I didn't mean that it would be just like our life here.

I die tomorrow for example. Not knowing what happens after this event, I believe that there is something after. A change so to speak.

Why?

Why do you even believe in the whole "life after death" to begin with?

[Foster Zygote]

No. I don't know that there isn't, but I have no reason to believe that there is.

[malcolmxwarrior]

How is that arrogant? Life is biology. Cognition is biology. When an animal dies, it's no longer alive. When it's no longer alive, it's no longer thinking. How does "afterlife" even make any sense?

After being alive?

When an animal dies is there something after? does he come back as a spider?

Death is a natural part of life so it's all a biological plan.

[Ron_Tomkins]

an afterlife means exactly that. After whatever this is. There is something else.

You don't know that. You want that to be true, on the other hand

The mayan belief that there are no ends, just new beginnings.

The naturalistic belief is that there are no ends nor beginnings. Everything is a continuos stream of evolving matter

If you believe that you die and rot in the ground and that's all, that's a pretty arrogant approach to the issue. Unless you take an agnostic approach.

it is an agnostic approach. It is not based on any beliefs. Only acknowledge of our ignorance about certain matters and thus, far from being arrogant

[malcolmxwarrior]

I go by what the evidence shows. If you can show any evidence for the soul or the afterlife, please do so.

That's pretty much what I meant by "life after death". I didn't mean that it would be just like our life here.



Why?

Why do you even believe in the whole "life after death" to begin with?

It doesn't have to be life after death. It could be something that you can't even comprehend right now because you are a mere mortal. Not life. Something that is un-knowable that you can't understand until you do it.

[Third Eye Open]

To say you know for sure is arrogant.



Do you know for sure that your breakfast hasn't been poisoned? You may say no, but do you take precautions to check for poison? No, because the chance that your breakfast is poisoned is to small to waste time thinking about it.

The same goes for an afterlife. I live my life as if there is not one, because all evidence points to that conclusion.

If this is 'arrogant' then all rational humans are 'arrogant'.

[Foster Zygote]

The mayan belief that there are no ends, just new beginnings.
So? How is what the Mayans believed any more relevant than what any other culture believed?

If you believe that you die and rot in the ground and that's all, that's a pretty arrogant approach to the issue. Unless you take an agnostic approach.
Some might say it is arrogant to claim to know with certainty that leprechauns do not exist anywhere in the universe.

[malcolmxwarrior]

You don't know that. You want that to be true, on the other hand



The naturalistic belief is that there are no ends nor beginnings. Everything is a continuos stream of evolving matter



it is an agnostic approach. It is not based on any beliefs. Only acknowledge of our ignorance about certain matters and thus, far from being arrogant

Where were you in 1825?

But knowing what happens when you die must make you a god. You know for sure? You know that when you die, you rot in the ground?

But if you say knowing is un-knowable, than that is not arrogant.

[Lonewulf]

It doesn't have to be life after death. It could be something that you can't even comprehend right now because you are a mere mortal.It could be, but I don't have a tendency to bank on not understanding something, and thus saying I believe in it.

Good luck on finding what it's like to not be a "mere mortal". My money's on you rotting in a grave, though.

Not life. Something that is un-knowable that you can't understand until you do it.

Then I guess I'll understand when I do it. But until then, no point in discussing the matter, aye? Because ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think, how "arrogant" I am, or how "mere" I am. According to your own argument, discussion on the topic doesn't even matter. There's no way any of us could "understand", and it obviously won't affect the journey, so who cares?

(Well, such a discussion might be fun to dally about, and it could inspire some ideas for fictional stories; I've had plenty of ideas for stories about fictional views of the afterlife, all of them weirder than the last. I just mean, it's a conversation I can't really take seriously.)

[Foster Zygote]

When an animal dies is there something after? does he come back as a spider?
This is just baseless speculation. It falls into the same category as "What if our universe is just an electron in a bottle of peanut butter schnapps in another universe?" or "What if I'm just a consciousness dreaming this universe and everyone and everything in it?".

Death is a natural part of life so it's all a biological plan.
What plan?

[Ron_Tomkins]

Where were you in 1825?

I didn't exist. Why? Did I miss something

[malcolmxwarrior]

This is just baseless speculation. It falls into the same category as "What if our universe is just an electron in a bottle of peanut butter schnapps in another universe?" or "What if I'm just a consciousness dreaming this universe and everyone and everything in it?".


What plan?

Right.

Some things naturally take form. You can't say it you have to do it.

For someone that is 99 years old, he doesn't want anything, he just wants to die. He doesn't want an afterlife, but my sister who died when she was 4 hours you WANT an afterlife for her. You know?

[godless dave]

After being alive?

When an animal dies is there something after? does he come back as a spider?

How could he "come back" if his brain has stopped working and decomposed?

[Rasmus]

I didn't exist. Why? Did I miss something

Nah. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1825)

[malcolmxwarrior]

I didn't exist. Why? Did I miss something

Maybe you were Abraham Lincoln? and now you're ron?

[godless dave]

But knowing what happens when you die must make you a god.

No, it makes me a human with a basic understanding of biology.

[malcolmxwarrior]

How could he "come back" if his brain has stopped working and decomposed?

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

[malcolmxwarrior]

No, it makes me a human with a basic understanding of biology.

Everybody know what happens when you die in a literal sense, but if you come back as a spider, who knows?

[Foster Zygote]

Right.

Some things naturally take form. You can't say it you have to do it.
Ermm...?

For someone that is 99 years old, he doesn't want anything, he just wants to die. He doesn't want an afterlife, but my sister who died when she was 4 hours you WANT an afterlife for her. You know?
Reality isn't determined by our desires.

[Foster Zygote]

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

Look up Phineas Gage, or meet someone who has had a stroke.

[Lonewulf]

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

All of the evidence points towards it defining me.

[KingMerv00]

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

All of the information we have says it does. What says otherwise?

[Rasmus]

Maybe you were Abraham Lincoln? and now you're ron?

I know I wasn't. I am not Lincoln now, so Lincoln then (or at any other time) would be something different from me.

To say I could be a not-me is patently absurd.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Ermm...?


Reality isn't determined by our desires.

death is natural, they feel no pain. The body is great at that. Like right before you are about to get in a traumatic accident, you black out a few moments before impact. My friend was in a motorcycle accident and all he remember is going up the hill and waking up in a hospital.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Nah. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1825)

Ohmygawd! I have so much gossip to update myself with! Thank you!!

Maybe you were Abraham Lincoln? and now you're ron?

Nah. As long as we're fantasizing about random stuff with no evidence, I'd rather think I was sent here by Superman with a mission to save the earth and marry Marissa Tomei

[KingMerv00]

death is natural, they feel no pain. The body is great at that. Like right before you are about to get in a traumatic accident, you black out a few moments before impact. My friend was in a motorcycle accident and all he remember is going up the hill and waking up in a hospital.

How can you tell the difference between blacking out before the fact and having amnesia after the fact?

[Foster Zygote]

death is natural, they feel no pain. The body is great at that. Like right before you are about to get in a traumatic accident, you black out a few moments before impact. My friend was in a motorcycle accident and all he remember is going up the hill and waking up in a hospital.

That's called losing consciousness. My brother-in-law was in a traumatic accident involving jumping from a low altitude aircraft wearing 60 lbs. of gear that resulted in him shattering both legs. He remembers every agonizing moment.

[Foster Zygote]

How can you tell the difference between blacking out before the fact and having amnesia after the fact?

Now that I think of it, my cousin was in a motorcycle accident and he can't remember that entire day, along with a lot of other memories spread out over a span of many years that are now gone.

[KingMerv00]

Now that I think of it, my cousin was in a motorcycle accident and he can't remember that entire day, along with a lot of other memories spread out over a span of many years that are now gone.

I banged my head as a kid and I didn't even remember waking up in the hospital.

I remember the day before and I remember being aware I was in a hospital. That's it. Not bright line between the two. The
sensation is impossible to describe.

[LyTinWeedle]

The "I" that "lives" is my human body. My experience of being I is in my brain. When it's gone, I'm gone.

This definition can lead to a different definition of what "dead" means. Traditionally, "dead" refers to the functioning the physical body: is the heart beating, is there brain activy, etc. Using your definition, if you suffer brain trauma such that you lose all your memories but your body is capable of rebuilding a functioning consciousness, you would be "dead". This leads to the case where there could be life (the physical body) after death (the death of self).

I hope that I never have the death of self without death of body. I can't imagine having friends and family have to see a stranger wearing my face.

LTW

[godless dave]

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

I'm pretty confident it does.

[godless dave]

Everybody know what happens when you die in a literal sense, but if you come back as a spider, who knows?

How could I come back as a spider?

What is the "I" that's coming back? What about the spider is me?

[Fiona]

The part that is soured by the lack of opposable thumbs?

[MattusMaximus]

I don't know. Like, where were you in 1825? Where was I in 1825?

like, what if mike tyson used to be george washington!

You know, George died but his soul? Came back as Iron Mike?

You are assuming that a thing called a "soul" even exists, and we have no such evidence.

Just like you have no evidence that Mike Tyson used to be George Washington beyond wild speculation. I might point out that, using such logic, you could have been a ditch-digging loser in a past life - but for some reason, when people use this argument, they always make reference to themselves as having once been some great personality from history.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

[Marquis de Carabas]

You are assuming that a thing called a "soul" even exists, and we have no such evidence.

Just like you have no evidence that Mike Tyson used to be George Washington beyond wild speculation. I might point out that, using such logic, you could have been a ditch-digging loser in a past life - but for some reason, when people use this argument, they always make reference to themselves as having once been some great personality from history.
In my previous life, I was a goat. That should explain some things.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Well, that surely explains the poor taste for hats

[slingblade]

an afterlife means exactly that. After whatever this is. There is something else.



To say you know for sure is arrogant.

I see what you did there.

[malcolmxwarrior]

You are assuming that a thing called a "soul" even exists, and we have no such evidence.

Just like you have no evidence that Mike Tyson used to be George Washington beyond wild speculation. I might point out that, using such logic, you could have been a ditch-digging loser in a past life - but for some reason, when people use this argument, they always make reference to themselves as having once been some great personality from history.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

To make a point.

[malcolmxwarrior]

How could I come back as a spider?

What is the "I" that's coming back? What about the spider is me?

I don't know.

What do you think happens after life.

do you think that it is like going to sleep where you don't dream except you never wake up?

I believe that reincarnation (or something like it) has been scientifically proven.

http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm

[malcolmxwarrior]

That's called losing consciousness. My brother-in-law was in a traumatic accident involving jumping from a low altitude aircraft wearing 60 lbs. of gear that resulted in him shattering both legs. He remembers every agonizing moment.

No it's not.

There is a scientific term for it.

I don't remember the exact term.

Your body will go into shock and you will black out.

You hear it all the time. people in accidents only remembering a few seconds and then they wake up in a hospital.

[Pardalis]

I believe that reincarnation (or something like it) has been scientifically proven.

http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm

You got to be more specific than that.

BTW, if reincarnation is true, do spiders themselves reincarnate?

If there is an afterlife for us, is there an afterlife for ants, microbes and whales?

[schlitt]

No it's not.

There is a scientific term for it.

I don't remember the exact term.

Your body will go into shock and you will black out.

You hear it all the time. people in accidents only remembering a few seconds and then they wake up in a hospital.

Why did you just blatantly ignore the post you quoted, which gave you a specific example of the exact opposite of your assertion?

Can you recognize the above bolded as a statement of certainty, about something you cannot possibly know, and therefore deserving of the label "arrogant" you were throwing around earlier?

[malcolmxwarrior]

Why did you just blatantly ignore the post you quoted, which gave you a specific example of the exact opposite of your assertion?

Can you recognize the above bolded as a statement of certainty, about something you cannot possibly know, and therefore deserving of the label "arrogant" you were throwing around earlier?

what?

[Lonewulf]

I believe that reincarnation (or something like it) has been scientifically proven.

Uh, no.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Uh, no.

did you read the article?

[Pardalis]

did you read the article?

It's a website, not an article.

[Cainkane1]

no

[Wowbagger]

The question doesn't apply to me, 'cause I am immortal.

[Lonewulf]

did you read the article?

You mean the website about End of the World scenarios?

[malcolmxwarrior]

It's a website, not an article.

go to the second one on the top.

[Lonewulf]

Oh yes, that was very informative and full of scientific data. :rolleyes:

Please make up for the time you made me lose.

[KingMerv00]

What do you think happens after life.

Here is an analogy: My body and brain are a calculator. My consciousness is the numbers on the screen.

What happens to the numbers when I turn the calculator off? Do they numbers float around for awhile and come back as a Pong cartridge?

[Elizabeth I]

Nope.

Is your afterlife infinite? If so, how will you deal with the inevitable boredom?

Here's what I don't understand (and I don't believe in an "afterlife," BTW): how can you say that? If there were some kind of survival or whatever-you-want-to-call-it after death, that would mean things are so different than we think that it's impossible to predict how they would be. Just because you think now you would be bored it doesn't follow that in a universe where there is an afterlife that you would be then.

[Lonewulf]

Yeah, the whole argument that relies on "You WILL grow bored" always suggests more of a lack of imagination in the arguer than anything.

I'm pursuing immortality, no matter who claims I'll grow bored and want to die. I'd rather death be my choice anyways.

[six7s]

I believe that on Planet X, there is only an après-vie

Bottoms up!

[brobradh77]

I'll be a dork and throw this out there to the wolves..lol

ok..I have seen poeple express the body as a ball of energy (in the literal sense not bouncing off the walls sense..lol) If that truly is the case then there would have to be some sort of after life or it would violate the 1st law of thermodynamics ..wouldn't it? Since in the majority in here death is it. game over

"Energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but it can neither be created nor destroyed."

I also believe in ghost..I have had face to face experience with one...If we truly do not have a soul or body thats a basic energy source how do you explain ghoss?

[Lonewulf]

I'll be a dork and throw this out there to the wolves..lol

ok..I have seen poeple express the body as a ball of energy (in the literal sense not bouncing off the walls sense..lol) If that truly is the case then there would have to be some sort of after life or it would violate the 1st law of thermodynamics ..wouldn't it? Since in the majority in here death is it. game over

"Energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but it can neither be created nor destroyed."Sure. The energy in me will live on after I die.

Have you ever heard of decomposition? That's it. You die, your body goes into the ground, and little critters start to feed on your body for sustenance (the energy that exists within your body). That breaks down and enriches the soil around your body, which would then give energy to a tree that would want to grow in that area. Then that is eaten by a herbivore and...

That's "energy". The thing is, the people that make the argument you just made, confuse "energy" for "information". To put it another way:

My computer is currently connected to a power cord. Electricity (energy) flows into my computer, and keeps it operating. Through this, I can make computations, play my video games, run programs, and communicate to you here.

Now I disconnect that cord. The energy is not destroyed or lost; but it's not going into the computer. What happens to the computer? Well, it's not functioning, right? But the only difference from "then" and "now" is that the power source is no longer connected to the computer.

But that's all it takes. Now my computer no longer makes computations. I cannot chat with you. I cannot run programs. My computer is essentially useless without that energy; it's a dead body. It doesn't decompose the same way we do, but eventually it would break down, and its own mass would be energy (E=MC^2), but that's it; the "information" only exists as long as the hard drive can function when connected to an energy source. So there's no "soul" to carry on.

(The brain isn't as lucky as a hard disk; almost as soon as you're dead, it's already decomposing in a rather less-than-survivable way... and it will rot and decay, the neurons being separated from one another, and all that information torn apart by the tides of biological life and death.)

I also believe in ghost..I have had face to face experience with one...If we truly do not have a soul or body thats a basic energy source how do you explain ghoss?

You're asking this on a Skeptic's Forum. Believe me, questions of ghosts have been dealt with over and over. General consesus is that it's very very unlikely that they exist as anything other than figments of the imagination, bad memory, and simply our brain going haywire and giving us false perceptions (which happens more often than you might think...)

Not to mention the occasional hoaxer or photo manipulation.

EDIT: And it's the "Wulves", not the "Wolves". :D

[six7s]

If that truly is the case then there would have to be some sort of after life or it would violate the 1st law of thermodynamics ..wouldn't it? No

Read up on:
compost
entropy
thermodynamics
reality



I also believe in ghost..I have had face to face experience with one...If we truly do not have a soul or body thats a basic energy source how do you explain ghoss?Read up on:

unicorns
goblins
intelligent design
leprechauns
weapons of mass destruction
fairies
elves
in-browser spell-checkers

[brobradh77]

Sure. The energy in me will live on after I die.

Have you ever heard of decomposition? That's it. You die, your body goes into the ground, and little critters start to feed on your body for sustenance (the energy that exists within your body). That breaks down and enriches the soil around your body, which would then give energy to a tree that would want to grow in that area. Then that is eaten by a herbivore and...

That's "energy". The thing is, the people that make the argument you just made, confuse "energy" for "information". To put it another way:

My computer is currently connected to a power cord. Electricity (energy) flows into my computer, and keeps it operating. Through this, I can make computations, play my video games, run programs, and communicate to you here.

Now I disconnect that cord. The energy is not destroyed or lost; but it's not going into the computer. What happens to the computer? Well, it's not functioning, right? But the only difference from "then" and "now" is that the power source is no longer connected to the computer.

But that's all it takes. Now my computer no longer makes computations. I cannot chat with you. I cannot run programs. My computer is essentially useless without that energy; it's a dead body. It doesn't decompose the same way we do, but eventually it would break down, and its own mass would be energy (E=MC^2), but that's it; the "information" only exists as long as the hard drive can function when connected to an energy source. So there's no "soul" to carry on.

(The brain isn't as lucky as a hard disk; almost as soon as you're dead, it's already decomposing in a rather less-than-survivable way... and it will rot and decay, the neurons being separated from one another, and all that information torn apart by the tides of biological life and death.)



You're asking this on a Skeptic's Forum. Believe me, questions of ghosts have been dealt with over and over. General consesus is that it's very very unlikely that they exist as anything other than figments of the imagination, bad memory, and simply our brain going haywire and giving us false perceptions (which happens more often than you might think...)

Not to mention the occasional hoaxer or photo manipulation.

EDIT: And it's the "Wulves", not the "Wolves". :D

No

Read up on:
compost
entropy
thermodynamics
reality



Read up on:

unicorns
goblins
intelligent design
leprechauns
weapons of mass destruction
fairies
elves
in-browser spell-checkers


LOL..I knew I could depend on y'all

I have seen a pigme(sp?) in my house once and it just stared at me..lol Maybe it was the medication?..lol

[malcolmxwarrior]

Here is an analogy: My body and brain are a calculator. My consciousness is the numbers on the screen.

What happens to the numbers when I turn the calculator off? Do they numbers float around for awhile and come back as a Pong cartridge?

I don't know but that's interesting.

If my brain no longer functions does that mean I am done?

I don't think so.

[malcolmxwarrior]

No

Read up on:
compost
entropy
thermodynamics
reality



Read up on:

unicorns
goblins
intelligent design
leprechauns
weapons of mass destruction
fairies
elves
in-browser spell-checkers



You can debate on reality for years.

What's to say what's real or not.

[Hokulele]

I don't know but that's interesting.

If my brain no longer functions does that mean I am done?

I don't think so.


Brain function and the concept of personal identity is even stranger than you may think. There are extreme cases of Capgras' syndrome where people will describe their younger self as being a completely different person. When shown a picture or video taken in the past, they will not associate that person with themself.

Body image is another odd place where the mind can play tricks, leading some people to believe their arm and legs do not belong to them (often claiming someone has put parts of corpses in their hospital bed), or viewing inanimate objects as being part of themselves. Read V.S. Ramachandran's Phantoms in the Brain for an excellent look at how you may not be who (or what) you think you are.

[KingMerv00]

I don't know but that's interesting.

If my brain no longer functions does that mean I am done?

I don't think so.

Why don't you think so?

[six7s]

If my brain no longer functions does that mean I am done?Yes

I don't think so.I suspect that, rather than thinking, you are hoping

Please note: as the Universe is not conscious, it can't care what you think, hope or believe

[six7s]

Read V.S. Ramachandran ... for an excellent look at how you may not be who (or what) you think you are.Read...

Or watch :)

NWIUa5cvjSo&feature=related
Beyond Belief '06 - V.S. Ramachandran (Clip 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIUa5cvjSo&feature=related)
Sunday, November 5th - Ramachandran on the inconsistency of beliefs in stroke patients.

[Lonewulf]

I don't know but that's interesting.

If my brain no longer functions does that mean I am done?

I don't think so.

Why do you not think so?

Show your work.

[Lonewulf]

You can debate on reality for years.

What's to say what's real or not.

You're perfectly able to say that reality is cheese donuts.

But until you can show your work, why should anyone take your claim seriously?

[six7s]

http://www.schau.com/pages/thenamiracleoccurs.png

[Hokulele]

Read...

Or watch :)



Pah, whatever happened to the value of hard-earned knowledge?


But seriously, thanks. I could listen to his lectures all day. :)

[Greediguts]

Maybe your brain doesn't define you?

Look up Phineas Gage, or meet someone who has had a stroke.

Foster makes a good point. I worked in traumatic brain injury rehab for about a decade and it was heartbreaking at times. I worked with a young man, recently engaged, working on his master's degree. He was struck by a car. He lost large portions of his long-term memory and his short-term memory would come and go as well. He would have moments of being terribly paranoid (barricading himself in his room, using his closet as a toilet) because he couldn't remember why he was at the care facility. Other times, he would become violent and lash out. His fiancée left him because he wasn't the same person. He barely remembered her or showed any emotion towards her.

I worked with another gentleman who lost the ability to speak (besides screaming), could not control his bladder, would not use a toilet when he had a bowel movement, and would punch, kick, squeeze, and even attempt to strangle his care workers. He had a motorcycle accident and was not wearing a helmet. He had a wife and 3 kids. They stopped visiting. The wife eventually divorced him.

Malcomxwarrior, would you say their "souls" were broken????

[fromdownunder]

In my previous life, I was a goat. That should explain some things.

Well, here's looking at you kid

Norm

[plumjam]

My uncel says iff you don't get a degree you can't go on to the afterleif.

[Niggle]

For someone that is 99 years old, he doesn't want anything, he just wants to die. He doesn't want an afterlife, but my sister who died when she was 4 hours you WANT an afterlife for her. You know?

I understand perfectly. My mother died a year and a half ago. She survived a liver transplant, breast cancer, and lymphoma (caused by the anti-rejection drugs) and finally succumbed to the Hepatitis C (that came in either with the new liver or with one of the transfusions she had at that time) that killed the new liver. She was a high school teacher of math and chemistry, a logical and practical woman who almost never lost her cool, even while dealing with the results of five teenagers simultaneously (Catholic family; LOTS of kids born close together). Her response to losing her hair to chemo (after losing it during the transplant) was to get excited wondering what color it would come back this time and if it would be curly, too (it was, and red; her original hair was black and straight as an arrow). She spent her time in chemo knitting prayer shawls for other cancer patients. She died ten days before Christmas, less than a week after I and my roommate took her shopping for the groceries to make all the special holiday treats for our family.

I hate to think of her beautiful mind being gone from the world forever. I can't bear to think of her rotting uselessly in the cemetery. I prefer to think of her as my older brother eulogized her; giving Saint Peter a piece of her mind because she wasn't done yet. IT'S NOT FAIR, DAMMIT!!!!

I'm not ready to commit to being an atheist, at least not yet. I've turned my back on the Catholicism I was raised in and chosen a healthier path (for my self-respect, anyway), but I tend to view it more as a mental self-help plan instead of a religion. I have to admit I don't really believe in it, either, and I've never seen any other path that makes any more sense from a religious viewpoint. Logically, I know my mother is gone, and her physical remains are, indeed, decomposing as we speak. I will never see her again, never talk to her again. I can dream otherwise to comfort myself and stop the tears (eventually). But I'm a grown-up now, and I know the difference between dreams and reality, even when it hurts.

I know my mother loved me. But I've neither seen nor heard nor felt any trace of her since her death. Not even when I screwed up the dough for one of those family recipes (I'm the only one left who knows them all). That would CERTAINLY have warranted a ghostly intervention. Just another piece of evidence (or lack thereof; yes, I know you can't prove a negative) for there not being anything after this. If there is, it doesn't matter. She's not my mother any more. She's not concerned with things here any more. In any way that would matter to this world, she's gone.

If you want to believe that there's something left after death, you're free to do so. But without evidence, it's just another religious-type belief. Since you're pinning your belief on the existence of a soul, another piece of unproven dreaming taken on faith, I don't see any difference between your belief and a religion. I've never seen any belief in a soul outside of a religion (that doesn't mean there isn't one, but there isn't in my experience). So, no, I don't think you can be an atheist and believe in an afterlife, not by the mechanism you're defining it (the soul).

[six7s]

My uncel says iff you don't get a degree you can't go on to the afterleif.Ill drink too that

[fatewilleatyou]

I agree with those who believe that death will be exactly the same as pre-birth.

[lionking]

My uncel says iff you don't get a degree you can't go on to the afterleif.

The "comedy" section has not been up to par lately, but this thread's a beauty.

To the OP, no.

[fromdownunder]

There are two forms of potential immortality that I can think of (apart from "fame" of course:

1. The atoms I am made from (which obviously change during my lifetime) will exist until the Universe dies an heat death Billions of years from now.

2. Genetically I could live on through my children etc... in a diminishing degree until either their descendants have no more children, of the human race dies out.

As far as coming back as an "ant", a Dropbear, or a future well, I don't care what- it would not be "me", nor would I have any knowledge of the "now me" if it were to happen. So that is irrelevant, whether it happens or not.

As far as being human (or otherwise) in the past, there is no valid evidence for this (no, Bridey Murphy was not evidence for anything) so I have no reason to accept that it is even possible.

I will be cremated, but my children have kybered my request to be flushed down the toilet, and are insisting that I go under a rose bush in a garden of remembrance - with NO plaque (my compromise with them). Once my brain ceases to function, that's it as far as I am concerned, because nobody has ever produced anything remotely close to evidence about a "soul". My memories are all I have. Once they are gone, I am gone, making reincarnation irrelevant..

I will die, my memories will die, and I will be completely forgotten within a couple of generations. Why are some people so arrogant that they need to think that it is improtant that they "live on"? Live with what you have, and don't dream of what might be in some form of cloud cuckoo land.

Norm

[SusanB-M1]

LOL..I knew I could depend on y'all

I have seen a pigme(sp?) in my house once and it just stared at me..lol Maybe it was the medication?..lol
There is also the Charles bonnet syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet_syndrome) which I found out about recently. This is experienced by some people with vision impairments, but it seems reasonable that it could be experienced bysighted people too.

[SusanB-M1]

Why don't you think so?
Well, I know why I didn't think so, when there was still this small point in my brain that said God was out there somewhere and that of course my soul would go on. It was because I had been told, and taught, and deflected from the actual truth by people whom I respected and trusted. It had minimal effect on my life, because someone said to me a very long time ago, 'This isn't a rehearsal, you know,' which made sense to me.

[SusanB-M1]

Niggle #100

Thank you for your honest and very moving post.
I'm not quite sure where the 'hug' emoticons are, but put several here...

fromdownunder #104

Exactly right.

[brobradh77]

There is also the Charles bonnet syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet_syndrome) which I found out about recently. This is experienced by some people with vision impairments, but it seems reasonable that it could be experienced bysighted people too.

Very interesting....I have only experiencded hallucinations once..it was at night..and he didnt scare me he just annoyed the crap out of me because all he did was stare at me...lol

[ToddH]

There are two forms of potential immortality that I can think of (apart from "fame" of course:

1. The atoms I am made from (which obviously change during my lifetime) will exist until the Universe dies an heat death Billions of years from now.

2. Genetically I could live on through my children etc... in a diminishing degree until either their descendants have no more children, of the human race dies out.

As far as coming back as an "ant", a Dropbear, or a future well, I don't care what- it would not be "me", nor would I have any knowledge of the "now me" if it were to happen. So that is irrelevant, whether it happens or not.

As far as being human (or otherwise) in the past, there is no valid evidence for this (no, Bridey Murphy was not evidence for anything) so I have no reason to accept that it is even possible.

I will be cremated, but my children have kybered my request to be flushed down the toilet, and are insisting that I go under a rose bush in a garden of remembrance - with NO plaque (my compromise with them). Once my brain ceases to function, that's it as far as I am concerned, because nobody has ever produced anything remotely close to evidence about a "soul". My memories are all I have. Once they are gone, I am gone, making reincarnation irrelevant..

I will die, my memories will die, and I will be completely forgotten within a couple of generations. Why are some people so arrogant that they need to think that it is improtant that they "live on"? Live with what you have, and don't dream of what might be in some form of cloud cuckoo land.

Norm

Well said Norm.

[Pardalis]

2. Genetically I could live on through my children etc... in a diminishing degree until either their descendants have no more children, of the human race dies out.

I somewhat disagree. After only a few generations, the "I" will vanish, as to become meaningless. Your genes would be spread out too much, and there wouldn't be any recognizable "you" left.

The genes would be immortal, but not you, as an individual or as a particular DNA signature.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Foster makes a good point. I worked in traumatic brain injury rehab for about a decade and it was heartbreaking at times. I worked with a young man, recently engaged, working on his master's degree. He was struck by a car. He lost large portions of his long-term memory and his short-term memory would come and go as well. He would have moments of being terribly paranoid (barricading himself in his room, using his closet as a toilet) because he couldn't remember why he was at the care facility. Other times, he would become violent and lash out. His fiancée left him because he wasn't the same person. He barely remembered her or showed any emotion towards her.

I worked with another gentleman who lost the ability to speak (besides screaming), could not control his bladder, would not use a toilet when he had a bowel movement, and would punch, kick, squeeze, and even attempt to strangle his care workers. He had a motorcycle accident and was not wearing a helmet. He had a wife and 3 kids. They stopped visiting. The wife eventually divorced him.

Malcomxwarrior, would you say their "souls" were broken????


I don't know.

We are merely just specks living out a tiny tiny existence and to think one puny speck has all the answers to all things is rather arrogant.

But if you are implying your brain is your soul, I say...no.

[malcolmxwarrior]

As far as coming back as an "ant", a Dropbear, or a future well, I don't care what- it would not be "me", nor would I have any knowledge of the "now me" if it were to happen. So that is irrelevant, whether it happens or not.

I agree with this.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Yes

I suspect that, rather than thinking, you are hoping

Please note: as the Universe is not conscious, it can't care what you think, hope or believe

You have to say who am I?

That is a question for the ages.

[malcolmxwarrior]

You're perfectly able to say that reality is cheese donuts.

But until you can show your work, why should anyone take your claim seriously?

You have to ask yourself...Who am I?

[Foster Zygote]

Foster makes a good point. I worked in traumatic brain injury rehab for about a decade and it was heartbreaking at times. I worked with a young man, recently engaged, working on his master's degree. He was struck by a car. He lost large portions of his long-term memory and his short-term memory would come and go as well. He would have moments of being terribly paranoid (barricading himself in his room, using his closet as a toilet) because he couldn't remember why he was at the care facility. Other times, he would become violent and lash out. His fiancée left him because he wasn't the same person. He barely remembered her or showed any emotion towards her.

I worked with another gentleman who lost the ability to speak (besides screaming), could not control his bladder, would not use a toilet when he had a bowel movement, and would punch, kick, squeeze, and even attempt to strangle his care workers. He had a motorcycle accident and was not wearing a helmet. He had a wife and 3 kids. They stopped visiting. The wife eventually divorced him.

Malcomxwarrior, would you say their "souls" were broken????
What I take issue with regarding the "Maybe their souls are still there but just can't control their bodies" argument is that it is just as defensible as solipsism, like so many other "what if?" arguments.

I've also met a brick wall trying to get dualists who claim out of body experiences as evidence that the soul is distinct from the body to explain why, if the above is the case, souls are able to see, hear and even feel while they are "out of body". If the soul has the same capacities of sensory interpretation that the body does, then why has no blind person ever been able to replace their lost physical vision with whatever sensory ability the disembodied souls must be using.

[Z]

Yes. There will definitely be something after my life. I won't know what it is, though, since I'll be dead.

Besides, all my molecules and atoms and energies and stuff will still be floating around the ol' universe - if time goes on long enough, they just might reorganize into me yet again. Preferably, though, I'll get a sexier tush next time.

[Foster Zygote]

I don't know.

We are merely just specks living out a tiny tiny existence and to think one puny speck has all the answers to all things is rather arrogant.

But if you are implying your brain is your soul, I say...no.
No one has claimed to have all the answers. No one can know for sure, but at least we are offering some actual evidence in favor of our position. All that you have offered is your desire to believe.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Yes. There will definitely be something after my life. I won't know what it is, though, since I'll be dead.

Besides, all my molecules and atoms and energies and stuff will still be floating around the ol' universe - if time goes on long enough, they just might reorganize into me yet again. Preferably, though, I'll get a sexier tush next time.

Exactly!

[Foster Zygote]

You have to say who am I?

That is a question for the ages.

That's the sort of thing that seems really deep when an emo kid writes it on the back cover of his English Lit notebook, but in reality it is a simple and entirely subjective question that will lead to no answers beyond the obvious. Any revelations about the supernatural or unobservable are just tacked on out of desire.

[Personal Grudge]

I certainly do not believe in the existence of an afterlife, as all available evidence would indicate that death is the end.

However, I do not exactly have a problem with "hoping" for something after death. I do not hang any of my expectations upon this hope. I do not waste my time with religion, I make no decisions based upon an idea of an afterlife. However, a certain amount of imaginitive dreaming can be quite entertaining. In particular, I wouldn't mind the concept presented in the Robin Williams film "What Dreams May Come".

But, it is important to always remember that hopes and wishes have absolutely no influence upon reality. If an afterlife exists (unlikely), then great! If an afterlife does not exist, I doubt I'll be disappointed. ;)

[cgordon]

Odds (not to mention science and medicine) seem to be pointing directly at no afterlife, but if there is something resembling rebirth, the you that you'd become would very likely be so NOT you that it'd be moot anyhow ...

[Z]

If an afterlife does exist, I have a bad feeling a LOT of us will be disappointed, actually.

I wish this question had been worded differently. I loved Mrs. White's answer in Clue: "It's a matter of life after death; now that he's dead, I have a life."

[six7s]

I suspect that, rather than thinking, you are hoping

Please note: as the Universe is not conscious, it can't care what you think, hope or believeYou have to say who am I? Nope

I do not have to ask such questions

You might feel an irresistible urge to...

There is no requirement for you to do so, esp in public


That is a question for the ages.
http://www.gardenofpraise.com/images/72955.gif
Ages 3 to 5. (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1026183&item_no=72955)

[Agatha]

No, I don't believe there's anything after this life other than in the memories of people who knew me, my genes in my children, and in the difference I made to the world while I was here.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Nope

I do not have to ask such questions

You might feel an irresistible urge to...

There is no requirement for you to do so, esp in public



http://www.gardenofpraise.com/images/72955.gif
Ages 3 to 5. (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1026183&item_no=72955)

I'm sure you're familiar with the rhetoric of the question of ones self.

I think therefore I am blah blah blah.

That's why I say it is a question for the ages.

Who am I?

The *I* part is the question.

[Locutus]

There'd better not be. I haven't packed or anything.

[Miss_Kitt]

There is also the Charles bonnet syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet_syndrome) which I found out about recently. This is experienced by some people with vision impairments, but it seems reasonable that it could be experienced bysighted people too.

Susan -- Thank you!! This is so amazingly cool!! I definitely have to read up on this.

I like the dry, professorial way of explaining that people don't talk about it because they don't want to be locked up as crazy!!!

Regards, MK

[six7s]

I'm sure you're familiar with the rhetoric of the question of ones selfYep

I'm also familiar with Dr Seuss

However, I don't quote excepts from 'Green Eggs and Ham' in R&P discussions

[Foster Zygote]

No, I don't believe there's anything after this life other than in the memories of people who knew me, my genes in my children, and in the difference I made to the world while I was here.
I agree wholeheartedly. When I think of my wife's grandfather and what a wonderful person he was, and then I look at my four year old son whom we named after him, I think about how beautiful the above sentiment really is.

[Foster Zygote]

I'm sure you're familiar with the rhetoric of the question of ones self.

I think therefore I am blah blah blah.

That's why I say it is a question for the ages.

Who am I?

The *I* part is the question.

Do you know what Descartes was on about?

[Lonewulf]

I don't know.

We are merely just specks living out a tiny tiny existence and to think one puny speck has all the answers to all things is rather arrogant.

But if you are implying your brain is your soul, I say...no.
And yet, you're claiming to have an idea about souls, without any evidence for doing so, and acting like this isn't arrogant behavior.

[Pardalis]

I'm sure you're familiar with the rhetoric of the question of ones self.

I think therefore I am blah blah blah.

That's why I say it is a question for the ages.

Who am I?

The *I* part is the question.

"Blah blah blah"?

You're not giving much thought to your own responses do you? :rolleyes:

[Miss_Kitt]

six7s -- You're a testy guy these days! A little sharper edge on your posts than I am used to, hope that your life IRL is going smoothly and it's just poking the Woos to see them jump...

At the OP: I think "who am I" is the biggest question each of us faces; and we answer it by how we live our lives. By what we say, and what we choose not to say; by what we do, and choose not to do, or forget to do, or mean to do but fail at; by what we think, and what kind of action those thoughts leads us to. Who "I" am is the sum of my life experience, as assessed, remembered, and reviewed by my own consciousness.

You spoke earlier about people blacking out just before horrible accidents. I think there is overwhelming evidence that that does not often happen; instead, there is retrograde amnesia where the brain has been damaged enough that the person cannot recall what happened before the event. For example, others may have been interacting with the person right before the trauma, and they recall that the victim said certain things--but the victim has no memory of the conversation or indeed of that time period at all.

Similarly, people in ICU often talk, ask questions, and cry with their family members--then do not remember these conversations later. Interestingly, there is evidence that suggests that some of the processing from these talks does stay in place, since patients who have such conversations seem to recover their psychological functioning faster than those that don't.(I'll try to find the reference and link it later.)

I have also personally experienced someone having antegrade amnesia from a drug injection. He seemed to be perfectly coherent as you exchanged sentences; but three minutes later, he would ask the same questions and not remember you'd talked to him. This led--most amusingly--to him singing "Puttin' on the Ritz" on and off for most of 2 hours, since he didn't remember he'd already sung it. After a couple of hours, he started remembering what had happened since the drug wore off; but the period just after the injection and surgery remained a mystery to him. (I understand this particular anesthestic is no longer in use in the US, perhaps its impacts on mental processing were not always so benign.)

All in all, that seems to indicate that the brain's ability to recall events is quite readily interrupted; and the cases of people speaking and acting in the last seconds before their accident also suggests that they are indeed conscious and functioning, even though they do not necessarily remember that later.

Just my thoughts, MK

[six7s]

Do you know what Descartes was on about?
PFFXQ6iz3jE

The Philosophers Drinking Song
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFFXQ6iz3jE)
... And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

[Miss_Kitt]

PFFXQ6iz3jE

The Philosophers Drinking Song
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFFXQ6iz3jE)
... And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.


"...who was just as schloshed as Schlagel!" surely one of the finest uses of alliteration in lyric history. Anyone who drinks to the Philosopher's Song is a friend of mine!

[AkuManiMani]

I neither believe or disbelieve in an afterlife, tho I strongly suspect that there isn't.

[cwalner]

Yep

I'm also familiar with Dr Seuss

However, I don't quote excepts from 'Green Eggs and Ham' in R&P discussions

More Science than R&P but Jump off the Cliff Notes (don't remember authors) had a cute bit where they analyzed 'One Fish Two Fish/Red Fish Blue Fish' as a dissertation on evolution

[fromdownunder]

Do you know what Descartes was on about?

Combining Descartes with reincarnation, and I come back as a pig, do I go from

I think therefore I am

to

I stink therefore I'm ham?

Norm

[ParanoidAndroid]

Similar to many perspectives offered to this point...


“Do you believe in an afterlife?”
Yes
no
...inclusion of original question and bolding by PA...

Yes. I believe in the only 'afterlife' for which there is evidence: death, decomposition, and fertilization. There’s no alternate evidence of which I'm aware.

Do you take a sort of agnostic approach to it as in knowing is un-knowable. You will never know?


I don’t think it’s necessarily unknowable. An afterlife (other than a lack of life) is highly improbable given the current and utter lack of evidence to the contrary.

I see it that there is something after this. Therefore an after-life.

Whatever it is we are doing here, whatever you wanna call it, I think there is something after this.


If by ‘afterlife’ you mean death, decomposition, and fertilization, I agree; otherwise, not so much.

I will be gone. The body, the brain, the face... all gone.

But I, whatever I am, will be somewhere else. I will not be back. I will be somewhere else. [/Rambling


This is very likely the act of your imagination or wildly hopeful speculation; nothing wrong here unless you want to (or want others to) deem it as more substantive than that. IMO, Imagination and such are healthy so long as reasonable perspective is maintained; “keeps one young” (along with a sense of humor).

[malcolmxwarrior]

six7s -- You're a testy guy these days! A little sharper edge on your posts than I am used to, hope that your life IRL is going smoothly and it's just poking the Woos to see them jump...

At the OP: I think "who am I" is the biggest question each of us faces; and we answer it by how we live our lives. By what we say, and what we choose not to say; by what we do, and choose not to do, or forget to do, or mean to do but fail at; by what we think, and what kind of action those thoughts leads us to. Who "I" am is the sum of my life experience, as assessed, remembered, and reviewed by my own consciousness.

You spoke earlier about people blacking out just before horrible accidents. I think there is overwhelming evidence that that does not often happen; instead, there is retrograde amnesia where the brain has been damaged enough that the person cannot recall what happened before the event. For example, others may have been interacting with the person right before the trauma, and they recall that the victim said certain things--but the victim has no memory of the conversation or indeed of that time period at all.

Similarly, people in ICU often talk, ask questions, and cry with their family members--then do not remember these conversations later. Interestingly, there is evidence that suggests that some of the processing from these talks does stay in place, since patients who have such conversations seem to recover their psychological functioning faster than those that don't.(I'll try to find the reference and link it later.)

I have also personally experienced someone having antegrade amnesia from a drug injection. He seemed to be perfectly coherent as you exchanged sentences; but three minutes later, he would ask the same questions and not remember you'd talked to him. This led--most amusingly--to him singing "Puttin' on the Ritz" on and off for most of 2 hours, since he didn't remember he'd already sung it. After a couple of hours, he started remembering what had happened since the drug wore off; but the period just after the injection and surgery remained a mystery to him. (I understand this particular anesthestic is no longer in use in the US, perhaps its impacts on mental processing were not always so benign.)

All in all, that seems to indicate that the brain's ability to recall events is quite readily interrupted; and the cases of people speaking and acting in the last seconds before their accident also suggests that they are indeed conscious and functioning, even though they do not necessarily remember that later.

Just my thoughts, MK


I wasn't talking aobut amnesia. The term is some long mumbo jumbo word.

Simply put, right before the wreck happens, you KNOW it is happening and then.. you wake up in a hospital only remembering 3-5 seconds before impact. I am not talking about the after-effects of such trauma such as not remembering you spouse Etc. Etc.

Just that little gap of black-out. I guess I could look up the term. But you get the gist of it.

[fuelair]

I had to vote No - but I do believe in life after birth!!

[Autolite]

Afterlife??? Sometimes I have doubts that I'm goin' to make it past next Thursday!!!

[longtimewatcher]

Help me debunk Life Between Lives hypnotherapy. Past lives is easy, but there have now been thousands of people "taken" between lives, and they "report" very similar stuff. The practitioners say it doesn't matter who the facilitator is, or what background the individual has. Supposedly, people report a similar sequence of events, tasks performed, and goals set. Can thousands of people be induced to say the same thing to many different hypnotists?

[Lonewulf]

Help me debunk Life Between Lives hypnotherapy. Past lives is easy, but there have now been thousands of people "taken" between lives, and they "report" very similar stuff. The practitioners say it doesn't matter who the facilitator is, or what background the individual has. Supposedly, people report a similar sequence of events, tasks performed, and goals set. Can thousands of people be induced to say the same thing to many different hypnotists?

If thousands of people read similar accounts by other people, it's very easy for them to copy one another, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Many people are surprisingly... not very original.

Penn and Teller did a ******** episode on the topic. One thing they brought up is, how many people adopt noble or higher-up positions in past lives, or knew famous people. It's amazing how so many people were not 99.99% of the "lesser" population, but instead that barely-a-hundredth% of the REALLY famous people.

[malcolmxwarrior]

What about the "plane" theory?

My friend was telling me this plane theory. He was in a car wreck about 20 years ago and he survived and lived on his life Etc. But, what he says, is that he died right there 20 years ago and on another "plane" his family lives without him etc. But he is on a different "plane" where he has all his loved ones Etc.

My experience, about 10 years ago I almost drowned but I got to shore and survived. But, the theory would go I died right there and that plane keeps going where I am dead. But I was transported to another plane.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Penn and Teller did a ******** episode on the topic.

Who cares?

Penn and Teller are COMPLETE Bulls**t.

[Lonewulf]

What about this "plane" hypothesis? What evidence does it have going for it?

[Lonewulf]

Who cares?

Penn and Teller are COMPLETE Bulls**t.

Nice to know you're not practicing the arrogance you accuse others of. And engaging in an ad hominem! Classy!

Okay. Give us your evidence of "past lives" then?

[Foster Zygote]

If thousands of people read similar accounts by other people, it's very easy for them to copy one another, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Many people are surprisingly... not very original.

This is very pervasive factor in UFO abduction claims. Years ago I saw a clip from a debate between a UFO abduction believer and a skeptic. At one point the abduction proponent held up a drawing of the typical "gray alien" and said something like "Oh yeah, then how come most everybody who's had an abduction experience says the aliens look like this?". He seemed completely oblivious to the notion that, by holding up that simple illustration in front of a camera on a nationally televised program, he was actually answering his own question.

[Foster Zygote]

Nice to know you're not practicing the arrogance you accuse others of. And engaging in an ad hominem! Classy!

Okay. Give us your evidence of "past lives" then?

Well I was Catherine The Great and her horse.









Yes, I am aware that the horse story is, well, horse-****.

[hamelekim]

Yes, I believe there is an after life. I also believe that we know almost nothing about the nature of the universe and of existence.

[Mr Clingford]

Well I was Catherine The Great and her horse.









Yes, I am aware that the horse story is, well, horse-****.I bow before your ability to incarnate as two species at the same time.

At least if she was getting to know her horse then no poor peasants were biting the dust instead as entertainment.

[six7s]

Well I was Catherine The Great and her horse.Sounds like you and Hokulele's "Rodeo Jesus" (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4491940#post4491940) would make a great double act

Yes, I am aware that the horse story is, well, horse-****.Make that 'a perfect double act'

[Tricky]

What about the "plane" theory?

My friend was telling me this plane theory. He was in a car wreck about 20 years ago and he survived and lived on his life Etc. But, what he says, is that he died right there 20 years ago and on another "plane" his family lives without him etc. But he is on a different "plane" where he has all his loved ones Etc.

My experience, about 10 years ago I almost drowned but I got to shore and survived. But, the theory would go I died right there and that plane keeps going where I am dead. But I was transported to another plane.

The problem with this theory is that it requires an infinite number of planes. Each time one thing happens when another thing could have happened, then that requires a new plane. And these nodes happen constantly in your life. You get caught by a red-light when you might have made it through. You order cake when you might have had pie. However minor, these change your life slightly. And of course, you're just one person. There must be planes for every individual who is affected by anything with potential multiple outcomes.

Also, you must consider all the people who came before you. They must have all had their planes too. Are you born in one of their planes or all of them? Was there a plane where one of your parents died before you were conceived? There must have been.

Quite a bit of science fiction relys on these "alternate histories" but to try to put it together as a "theory" is simply impossible. You cannot show the existence of any other planes. You cannot decribe the occurrances under which a "new plane" is generated. It is simply and elaborate game of "What if?"

[fatewilleatyou]

Preferably, though, I'll get a sexier tush next time.

Your comment begs a photograph for public evaluation.

[Z]

Your comment begs a photograph for public evaluation.

You mean for public humiliation. Sorry, I no longer have a camera that can safely take a picture of my rumpus without shattering the lenses.

[blobru]

Yes
no...


I do not believe in an afterlife, especially the sort of afterlife you get to go to if you do not believe in an afterlife.

[SusanB-M1]

Yes, I believe there is an after life. I also believe that we know almost nothing about the nature of the universe and of existence.
I am quite surprised to see that. I am not in any way a scientist, but having subscribed to this web site for several years and to a weekly (CD version) 'New Scientist' for two years, I have been made far more aware of the vast amount of research and information that is available nowadays, an which seeks to find the truth.

[kurious_kathy]

Yes, absolutely 100%. It's either heaven or hell for everyone!

[Nogbad]

Yes, absolutely 100%. It's either heaven or hell for everyone!

Who would have thunk it :boggled:

[ParanoidAndroid]

Yes, absolutely 100%. It's either heaven or hell for everyone!


See...this is what I was saying earlier. Excellent use of imagination! Why, I bet you're as young at heart as you are devout in your reason.

[Radrook]

Talking about ideas of afterlives....

Ever hear of the fellow who went to a psychiatrist to help him get rid of the feeling that in his previous existence he had been Napoleon Bonaparte?


"Rest assured my friend-you definitely never were Napoleon Bonaparte!" the psychiatrist kept telling him until the man felt a bit relieved. But before leaving he wondered why the psychiatrist could be so sure."

"How can you be so sure I was never Napoleon Bonaparte in a previous life?" the patient asked.

After removing his bifocals and smiling broadly the doctor responded:

"Because I was Napoleon Bonaparte!"

[longtimewatcher]

Lonewulf, there were two components to your response:
"If thousands of people read similar accounts by other people, it's very easy for them to copy one another, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Many people are surprisingly... not very original."
and
"Penn and Teller did a ******** episode on the topic. One thing they brought up is, how many people adopt noble or higher-up positions in past lives, or knew famous people. It's amazing how so many people were not 99.99% of the "lesser" population, but instead that barely-a-hundredth% of the REALLY famous people."

Regarding the former, my understanding is that most of this work was done prior to any publication. As for the latter, remember, I am not talking about "prior lives." I'm wondering how they can get consistent reports out of people queried about between lives.

IMHO, the LBL (Lives Between Lives) crowd cannot be dismissed out of hand. To do so would seem to require some other form of supernatural personage or series of events, a non-starter for us.

Look at Michael Newton's Journey of Souls. He admittedly leads his patients, at times, asking the same questions of each person. But how can it be that the answers they gave him, over a twenty year period, are reportedly consistent. His work is replicated by others. I can't figure out how to debunk this stuff.

[Foster Zygote]

Regarding the former, my understanding is that most of this work was done prior to any publication. As for the latter, remember, I am not talking about "prior lives." I'm wondering how they can get consistent reports out of people queried about between lives.

IMHO, the LBL (Lives Between Lives) crowd cannot be dismissed out of hand. To do so would seem to require some other form of supernatural personage or series of events, a non-starter for us.

Look at Michael Newton's Journey of Souls. He admittedly leads his patients, at times, asking the same questions of each person. But how can it be that the answers they gave him, over a twenty year period, are reportedly consistent. His work is replicated by others. I can't figure out how to debunk this stuff.
First of all we need to know what questions he is asking and how he is "leading" the subjects. It may be that the consistency is due to some artifact of human psychology. For example: The "tunnel of light" reported by those who have experienced oxygen starvation of the brain. This phenomenon is well documented as a result of reduced blood flow to the brain. Military pilots are very familiar with the effect. Yet many people have interpreted such experiences as supernatural. If they start from a position that they are looking for something supernatural then the consistency of the "near death" experience might be seen as supporting evidence for the hypothesis.

Another example goes back to the UFO abduction culture. Sleep paralysis is common and is pretty well understood as a result of brain function. But it can be quite terrifying. I know because I've experienced it about half a dozen times in my life. We can see from history that this phenomenon was once attributed to supernatural causes in the form of demon visitation (and still is in many parts of the world). The culture assigned an explanation for these experiences and people interpreted what was happening to themselves based on these themes. Those affirming UFO abduction claims often point to the consistencies of sleep paralysis experiences as evidence of their veracity.

In the end we really need to know the details of the questions being asked as well as the details of the responses. And we need to know what, if anything, is being left out of the published results.

[Mashuna]

Well I was Catherine The Great and her horse.


Yes, I am aware that the horse story is, well, horse-****.

I'm sorry, but trying to give evidence that you, whatever you are comprised of, was once Catherine the Great's steed is just putting Decartes before the horse.

[Foster Zygote]

i'm sorry, but trying to give evidence that you, whatever you are comprised of, was once catherine the great's steed is just putting decartes before the horse.

badump-bump!

[Marcus]

Look up Phineas Gage, or meet someone who has had a stroke.
It seems so obvious that there is no "I" without a functioning brain, you don't have to look any further that a brain damaged person to see this.

I'm still amazed when I come across Believers who buy this, it takes even more credulity than believing there is an invisible daddy in the sky.

[longtimewatcher]

"In the end we really need to know the details of the questions being asked as well as the details of the responses. And we need to know what, if anything, is being left out of the published results."

Actually, one of the practitioners has provided these details. Michael Newton's Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls both document his work over 20 years with thousands of clients. Both the "reporting" his clients provide and the conclusions Newton draws are disturbing. The fact that other regression hypnotherapists are hearing the same things from their clients makes it difficult to dismiss this out of hand. I get the feeling no one here is even familiar with life between lives hypnotherapy. That is worrisome. The "LBL" community has yet to be vetted. A little bit of science here might shed light on just what is going on, because it is significant.

[Niggle]

Niggle #100

Thank you for your honest and very moving post.
I'm not quite sure where the 'hug' emoticons are, but put several here...


Aw, shucks.

I can't seem to get the posting box to work right, but picture the blushing smiley here.

[godless dave]

Hasn't hypnotic regression been completely discredited?

[longtimewatcher]

"Hasn't hypnotic regression been completely discredited?"

Not as it relates to LBL (Life Between Lives) research. Hardly. They are getting consistent bell-curve quality responses, and I cannot find anyone who can explain why, other than using some form of the supernatural (eg: its the work of the devil).

[six7s]

They are getting consistent bell-curve quality responsesPlease: explain who they are
cite examples of such bell curves

Thank you

[longtimewatcher]

They are the people I cited above. By bell curve quality, I meant there are outliers, but generally they are not reporting sensations and thought patterns totally inconsistent with the norm. ie, they see a church vs a school, or they meet a group of souls rather than a soul-mate or guide.

As I have mentioned, the opportunity is there for statistical analysis to take place, but I have not seen any attempt to do so. Despite thousands of client-reports, no one has quantified the results.

The thing that is of most concern to me is that I cannot find a way to explain this in purely material terms, and feel that dismissing it out of hand is like sticking one's head in the sand.

Let me know if you learn anything.

[Foster Zygote]

A few troubling things I found at the Newton Institute website www.spiritualregression.org

In the section describing hypnotic regression I came across this statement:
You may choose to read Dr. Newton's books in advance of your session, but this is not required.
This casts real doubt as to the level of suggestion that may be going on prior to, or during, these sessions. If someone has read Newton's books they are far more likely to have expectations about the experiences and sensations that they report. It doesn't look like Newton is very diligent concerning controls in his data gathering procedures.


Then there's this bit from the "what an LBL session offers you" section:
Life-Between-Lives (Spiritual) Regression is a means to consciously experience our own permanent identity and the realm in which our soul resides, while answering the fundamental questions..."Who Am I?" and "Why Am I Here Now?". This procedure requires entry into a deep trance during a single 3 to 4 hour session. LBL assists individuals in realizing themselves as spiritual beings...not through belief, but through an actual conscious experience of that heritage. As a result of a deepened perception of one's own immortal soul, values - and the priorities, emotions, and actions that spring from them - change. For this reason, before being guided into an LBL session, it is highly recommended that prospective clients first experience a Past Life Regression (PLR), with a qualified hypnotherapist.
What Newton is doing is clearly not science. He's telling subjects what they are going to experience during a session. No wonder people report similar experiences. They're being primed to do so. This is no different than telling someone who has had frightening sleep paralysis experiences all the details of the archetypal alien abduction scenario prior to a hypnotic session.


And here's another suspicious bit: A "cast of characters" list.
This list will introduce your LBL therapist to the most significant people who have touched your life. This familiarization will be helpful for your therapist to reference should some of these people from your present life "show up" (in a different body or spiritual state, of course) while you are experiencing the past-life or between-life portions of your regression session.

The Cast of Characters List consists of a typed sheet listing the first names and relationship to you of people who have significantly impacted your life. These individuals may have had a significantly positive or negative influence; they may be alive or dead at the time of your session; they may be individuals whom you knew at an earlier stage of your life but are no longer interacting with you. Such a list typically includes relatives, lovers, best friends (or antagonists), and teachers. The list should be as condensed as possible, including only the most significant people, rarely consisting of more than ten names. Also, include four adjectives that describe their personality as you percieve them.
Not only does this information make it too easy for the therapist to make suggestions to, and manipulate the subject, but it also suggests to the subject what he or she should expect to experience.

The Michael Newton Institute seems little more than another New Age religious institution. I'd put him in the same category as Ramond Moody and Egar Cayce.

[Foster Zygote]

What I found really interesting at the Michael Newton Institute site was the section on training and certifying LBL therapists. Click on Professional Hypnotherapists.

[ExMinister]

They are the people I cited above. By bell curve quality, I meant there are outliers, but generally they are not reporting sensations and thought patterns totally inconsistent with the norm. ie, they see a church vs a school, or they meet a group of souls rather than a soul-mate or guide.

As I have mentioned, the opportunity is there for statistical analysis to take place, but I have not seen any attempt to do so. Despite thousands of client-reports, no one has quantified the results.

The thing that is of most concern to me is that I cannot find a way to explain this in purely material terms, and feel that dismissing it out of hand is like sticking one's head in the sand.

Let me know if you learn anything.

I agree with and second what Foster Zygote said, and just want to add that I was trained to do past life/between life regression, and one of the key things to keep in mind is that most people coming to these appointments are already solidly immersed in New Age philosophy, even if not familiar with Newton's work in particular. In my case, most were familiar with Sylvia Browne's ideas about the afterlife. But it can be argued that there is a New Age version of what happens "between lives" that is pretty consistent among New Agers (James van Praagh, Edward, Altea and other mediums who have published books all have adopted a similar view), based loosely on Raymond Moody's books which came out in the 70s. Most of the New Age writers have adopted a similar view, and so people are pretty saturated with it.

ETA: Oops, just realized I missed the whole last page of posts, where Lonewolf and others pretty much had this point covered! Ah well, early senility, what else can I say.

[ExMinister]

I do not believe in an afterlife, especially the sort of afterlife you get to go to if you do not believe in an afterlife.

:D Just couldn't let this pass without expressing my appreciation as to that second part.

Speaking of the afterlife, the brain versus the soul and all that, has anyone heard the Edgar Cayce argument that the brain is basically a tool that the soul uses in order to express itself through a human body? The theory goes that the soul can only function well depending on the condition of the brain. So, if the brain is damaged, the soul can no longer express itself through it well, but the soul, which is eternal, remains undamaged. Always made a certain amount of sense to me and it's a common rebuttal among New Agey types when confronted with the arguments that brain damage studies indicate that brain function is all we have/are. Just wondered if anyone has come across it and if there are any obvious flaws to it I might have missed.

[kurious_kathy]

Brain function and the concept of personal identity is even stranger than you may think. There are extreme cases of Capgras' syndrome where people will describe their younger self as being a completely different person. When shown a picture or video taken in the past, they will not associate that person with themself.

Body image is another odd place where the mind can play tricks, leading some people to believe their arm and legs do not belong to them (often claiming someone has put parts of corpses in their hospital bed), or viewing inanimate objects as being part of themselves. Read V.S. Ramachandran's Phantoms in the Brain for an excellent look at how you may not be who (or what) you think you are.

Funny Hokulele. I felt my lower body parts recently were not my own when I was struck with a brief case of edema. I am not good at drinking enough water and had all the classic causes as far as I know but it did freak me out a bit. I really just could not see these were my feet and legs as they did get 3x's bigger than normal. I felt really weird and was happy when the symptoms were gone by the morning. I also think the Lord helped me get over it faster after praying a lot but now I must follow up some other tests and stuff on the health care side. Has anyone else here ever had edema? It is one of the weirdest things I think I have ever experienced. It was my body but it sure did not look or feel like it for while. I just hoped it wasn't anything more serious that could cause death suddenly like heart or liver failure. I look forward to meeting my maker one day but I still feel even with my health issues it is too soon to die. I really hope I live to see the rapture.

[Hokulele]

Funny Hokulele.


So, did you read Ramachandran's book?

[kurious_kathy]

:D Just couldn't let this pass without expressing my appreciation as to that second part.

Speaking of the afterlife, the brain versus the soul and all that, has anyone heard the Edgar Cayce argument that the brain is basically a tool that the soul uses in order to express itself through a human body? The theory goes that the soul can only function well depending on the condition of the brain. So, if the brain is damaged, the soul can no longer express itself through it well, but the soul, which is eternal, remains undamaged. Always made a certain amount of sense to me and it's a common rebuttal among New Agey types when confronted with the arguments that brain damage studies indicate that brain function is all we have/are. Just wondered if anyone has come across it and if there are any obvious flaws to it I might have missed.

No I haven't heard of this theory but it does sound interesting, I may just have to check it out since I am always interested in the topic of souls. The best teaching I have heard to date on this topic was taught by the late, Adrianne Rogers. Now there's a man who served the Lord well and his teachings were very good. Have you ever heard this teaching I'm talking about? He even did a segment on animals having souls which I believe was very insightful.

[kurious_kathy]

So, did you read Ramachandran's book?No I am afraid not. Who is this author and what is his backround or expertise?

P.S. Have you ever experienced edema??

[Hokulele]

No I am afraid not. Who is this author and what is his backround or expertise?


He is a neurologist/neuroscientist from a Hindu background. He is probably best known for his work with phantom limbs and has written a book on consciousness (as well as his general work on neuroscience) and has given many lectures on the brain and how it works. Here is a link to the Reith lectures from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecture1.shtml

One of my favorite chapters of the book I mentioned in the post you originally quoted (Phantoms in the Brain) has to do with what is sometimes known as neurotheology, or the way the human brain generates religious experiences. It is called "God and the Limbic System" and is fascinating stuff.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Phantoms-in-the-Brain/V-S-Ramachandran/e/9780688172176


ETA: No, I have not experienced edema. I am one of those lucky people who have never experienced any major health problems, not even a cavity. Between good genes and a healthy lifestyle (plenty of veggies and exercise), I should be good for decades to come. :)

[kurious_kathy]

He is a neurologist/neuroscientist from a Hindu background. He is probably best known for his work with phantom limbs and has written a book on consciousness (as well as his general work on neuroscience) and has given many lectures on the brain and how it works. Here is a link to the Reith lectures from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecture1.shtml

One of my favorite chapters of the book I mentioned in the post you originally quoted (Phantoms in the Brain) has to do with what is sometimes known as neurotheology, or the way the human brain generates religious experiences. It is called "God and the Limbic System" and is fascinating stuff.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Phantoms-in-the-Brain/V-S-Ramachandran/e/9780688172176


ETA: No, I have not experienced edema. I am one of those lucky people who have never experienced any major health problems, not even a cavity. Between good genes and a healthy lifestyle (plenty of veggies and exercise), I should be good for decades to come. :)

He sounds like a rather intersting fellow, I may need to look at some of his stuff too. I once went to a nuerologist and all they found was some scar tissue on the back of my brain due to probably a fall I had on my head in the 8th grade. I fell off an 8+ foot fence while playing ditchem with my friends. They said I flopped around like a fish for about a minute but then I woke up. They kept a watch on me til the pupils went down so I am again knowing how blessed I am I did not die at that point in my life. I could have split open my head quite easily but I did not. Thank God. That's just one of the many episoldes in my life I feel God protected me from possible death.

Be thankfull Hokulele for good health. People just do not realize what a true blessing it is until they lose it. I hope you never have to know the challenges bad health brings to a persons life.

[bobcarp]

Since there is no proof one way or the other if there is or is not an afterlife, an educated person using logic should default on the most non-fantastic choice and not be swayed by mere human emotion. The normal response would be the most emotionally satisfying to the human mind, which of course is a very pleasant after-life with your dead relatives, which is why every type of afterlife has been created, 99% of which believers would reject immediately.

It’s like the saying, “I’m not worried about going to your version of hell for the same reason you’re not worried about going to the other guy’s version of hell.”

[Belz...]

Nope. No afterlife.

For there to be an afterlife there'd have to be a soul.

If souls exist they either can't interact with physical things or are detectable.