Questions for theists re: Innocence, Ignorance, and Hell [Archive]

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 01:03 PM

Vic Vega

16th April 2009, 01:16 PM

Very interesting questions. I've thought about them from time to time. I can't wait to hear the responses.

MG1962

16th April 2009, 01:24 PM

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 01:30 PM

I cant speak for all faiths. But personally I can't see why these people would be subject to an exclusion clause. With the exception of the younger examples. It is more about how you live your life that will ultimately decide your fate
So what age is the cutoff?

And what if the older people lived a "moral" and "good" life, they just did not worship YOUR god? Will YOUR god punish somebody for all eternity because they were never told about YOUR religion?

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 01:57 PM

I'm sure this has been covered many times by people much more intelligent then me, but a conversation I had recently had brought this topic to my mind, and I just don't know the answer...

Basically, I want ot present a few scenarios, and have believers tell me if the person is question is going to heaven, hell, or "you don't know"...

6 month old aborted fetus
6 month old baby
2 year old child (parents are of YOUR religion)
2 year old child (of atheist parents)
7 year old child (parents are of YOUR religion)
7 year old child (of atheist parents)
7 year old child who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
13 year old child who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
21 year old adult who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)

If you said heaven to some and hell to others, can you explain the difference please?

In all of these cases, the person has never been given a chance, or the knowledge of YOUR god. So does YOUR god send somebody to hell for not accepting something they have no knowledge of?

If you said heaven to all, then for the sake of humanity, wouldn't it be best if NOBODY knew about YOUR religion, so that nobody would ever be condemned to hell again?

I think you also left off:
7 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
13 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
21 year old adult who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)

And also:
7 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted it.
13 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted it.
21 year old adult who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted it.

And also:
7 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and not accepted it.
13 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and not accepted it.
21 year old adult who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and not accepted it.

And also:
7 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted parts of it.
13 year old child who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted parts of it.
21 year old adult who has heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc) and accepted parts of it.

And then I suppose it would depend on what Hell is, what it's purpose is for, and why that Religion says someone goes there. Since your question is directed towards Theists in general I suppose that it's directed to all religions with a concept of a Hell.

Of course, judging from your last statement it seems you're not really wanting a discussion - just trying to setup your argument then answering it yourself.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:00 PM

So what age is the cutoff?

And what if the older people lived a "moral" and "good" life, they just did not worship YOUR god? Will YOUR god punish somebody for all eternity because they were never told about YOUR religion?

Just curious - in your above scenario what's that god your referring to punishing exactly?

For that matter - what's the point of the punishment? what's the goal of the punishment?

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:19 PM

I think you also left off:
<snip>
Nope, I did not leave those out. I gave the scenarios I am interested in.
If you'd like to answer those scenarios, I'd be happy to discuss your replies.
If you'd like to answer different questions, as long as they are related, perhaps we can discuss those ideas.

And then I suppose it would depend on what Hell is, what it's purpose is for, and why that Religion says someone goes there. Since your question is directed towards Theists in general I suppose that it's directed to all religions with a concept of a Hell.
I don't believe that "hell" exists, so it's up those those who do believe in it to define it as they understand it from their religion.
It would also be up to them to explain why their god would send somebody there, since each religion may have different reasons.

Of course, judging from your last statement it seems you're not really wanting a discussion - just trying to setup your argument then answering it yourself.
Actually I do want a discussion. My scenarios are leading to that discussion which is framed in the final questions.

Just curious - in your above scenario what's that god your referring to punishing exactly?

For that matter - what's the point of the punishment? what's the goal of the punishment?
Many religions make the claim that we are all sinners and all deserving of hell. Many of these religions also claim that non-believers will go to hell, and the only way to avoid hell is to accept their particular god and particular teachings.
Not believing in those gods, I can't say exactly what the purpose of the punishment is. Again, this is left ot the believers to state, not to me.

Basically it boils down to this:
Many believers say that people who do not accept their specific religion will go to hell
For those people (and if you're one of them, for you as well), I'm curious about these scenarios, and their answers to my questions.

If you believe in heaven and hell,
and you believe that god sends people to hell
Then I'd like to hear your answers.

If you don't, then I'm not sure what purpose you'll serve in this discussion.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:21 PM

If you said heaven to all, then for the sake of humanity, wouldn't it be best if NOBODY knew about YOUR religion, so that nobody would ever be condemned to hell again?

What if it's Heaven for All - whether they knew about it or not?

What if it's Heaven for Most?

What if either is optional - you get to choose?

Ralph

16th April 2009, 02:21 PM

I'm not a theist..but you'll see this issue fairly frequently over at Rapture Ready & other related sites.

Many of them are parents and while they are convinced that they are saved--they're not so sure about their children.

The general rule of thumb seems to involve a vaguely defined "age of awareness"....a point at which a child should be capable of thinking for himself....and making moral judgements including whether or not to believe in jesus.

It's usually felt it's around 9 or 10 so the 7 years olds & under in the OP would get a pass.

As far as being born in a culture where they are not exposed to Jesus---that doesn't seem to be a valid excuse. Tough cookies for the 13 year old and above. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

There's usually some fire-breathing,bible-quoting hardass involved who likes to bring up the fact that there is no mention in the bible that children get a pass. If the parent's are saved--they'll probably be OK...but otherwise-----into the pot for eternity.

For the life of me...I'll never understand why anybody would worship such a sadistic prick.....

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:22 PM

What if it's Heaven for All - whether they knew about it or not?
Then what is the purpose of religion?

What if it's Heaven for Most?
And who choose those who go to hell and those who don't?

What if either is optional - you get to choose?
Then what is the purpose of religion?

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:27 PM

I don't believe that "hell" exists, so it's up those those who do believe in it to define it as they understand it from their religion.
It would also be up to them to explain why their god would send somebody there, since each religion may have different reasons.

Why do you care if you don't believe it?

Actually I do want a discussion. My scenarios are leading to that discussion which is framed in the final questions.

OK

You're last statement seemed to be assuming that if NO was chosen for all your conditions then YES is only possible if they hear about it. That's why I was thinking you were missing some other variations.

Basically it boils down to this:
Many believers say that people who do not accept their specific religion will go to hell
For those people (and if you're one of them, for you as well), I'm curious about these scenarios, and their answers to my questions.

I'm not one of them as you describe above - so I doubt I can add anything more. Cheerio.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:29 PM

I'm not a theist..but you'll see this issue fairly frequently over at Rapture Ready & other related sites.

Many of them are parents and while they are convinced that they are saved--they're not so sure about their children.

The general rule of thumb seems to involve a vaguley defined "age of awareness"....a point at which a child should be capable of thinking for himself....and making moral judgements including whether or not to believe in jesus.

It's usually felt it's around 9 or 10 so the 7 years olds & under in the OP would get a pass.
Well isn't that generous of their god to not torture all children for eternity...

As far as being born in a culture where they are not exposed to Jesus---that doesn't seem to be a valid excuse. Tough cookies for the 13 year old and above. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Seems fair to me. A child grows up in china, never heaqrs about "the true god", and is automatically ****ed for all eternity, even if they live a "moral" and "good" life... That is certainly the hallmark of a loving god.\

There's usually some fire-breathing,bible-quoting hardass involved who likes to bring up the fact that there is no mention in the bible that children get a pass. If the parent's are saved--they'll probably be OK...but otherwise-----into the pot for eternity.
Why would the parent's staus tranfer to the child?

For the life of me...I'll never understand why anybody would worship such a sadistic prick.....
:clap:

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:32 PM

Then what is the purpose of religion?

Which one? There's lots. But generally I would think most Religions give people a sense of purpose, a moral framework to base their life and societies around, a God to pray to, hope for the future, a community to be part of and take part in. I'm sure there's plenty of other purposes of religion.

And who choose those who go to hell and those who don't?

I'm sure whoever the head honcho of that religion would be the one making that choice based on whatever criteria he/she wants.

Then what is the purpose of religion?

See above.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:33 PM

Why do you care if you don't believe it?
Curiousity

You're last statement seemed to be assuming that if NO was chosen for all your conditions then YES is only possible if they hear about it. That's why I was thinking you were missing some other variations.
I realize there are MANY other scenarios that I did not include. I chose the ones I did because they lead in a specific direction without too much sidetracking.

I'm not one of them as you describe above - so I doubt I can add anything more. Cheerio.
So you're a christian (based on your name, or perhaps you are a skeptic of christians) but don't believe in hell (or don't believe that some people are sent to hell)?
Out of curiousity, if you are a christian, what denomination?
And is Hitler in heaven?
How about Ghandi?

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:34 PM

Well isn't that generous of their god to not torture all children for eternity...

Seems fair to me. A child grows up in china, never heaqrs about "the true god", and is automatically ****ed for all eternity, even if they live a "moral" and "good" life... That is certainly the hallmark of a loving god.\

Why would the parent's staus tranfer to the child?

:clap:

Oh - so this is a Confirmation Bias thread. Oops.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:37 PM

Which one? There's lots. But generally I would think most Religions give people a sense of purpose, a moral framework to base their life and societies around, a God to pray to, hope for the future, a community to be part of and take part in. I'm sure there's plenty of other purposes of religion.
If nobody gores to hell (or everybody does), then there are many other ways to give people purpose without religion. There are also many other ways to derive morality, hope, and community.
If there is no affect on the afterlife, why would one religion be "better" than another religion (or no religion)?

I'm sure whoever the head honcho of that religion would be the one making that choice based on whatever criteria he/she wants.
And we're left with my scenarios, which apparently you're unable to answer...

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:38 PM

Curiousity

I realize there are MANY other scenarios that I did not include. I chose the ones I did because they lead in a specific direction without too much sidetracking.

If you're trying to lead it in a certain direction that doesn't seem like a discussion of curiosity - more like Confirmation Bias I think.

So you're a christian (based on your name, or perhaps you are a skeptic of christians)

Yes.

but don't believe in hell (or don't believe that some people are sent to hell)?

Sort of.

Out of curiousity, if you are a christian, what denomination?

None specifically. When I compare different theologies of churches I seem to tend towards somewhat Lutheran and somewhat Greek Orthodox. But there aren't either of those where I live so I don't attend them.

And is Hitler in heaven?
How about Ghandi?

Beats me I've never been there. But I sincerely hope they get exactly what they deserve - no more and no less.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:40 PM

Oh - so this is a Confirmation Bias thread. Oops.
Not at all.

Ralph gave some examples from his experience with people and I reponded to them. I'm unsure where you're seeing confirmation bias in this.

Personally I would expect MOST christians to say the children got to heaven, and a split about the adults who live a good life, but are not the "correct" religion.

Either way people answer is quite interesting to me, and I'm interested in the thought process to come to those conclusions.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:41 PM

we're left with my scenarios, which apparently you're unable to answer...

You might be better served visiting Rapture Ready - but I'm sure you already know there answers, so not sure what the point would be - except if you just want argue with them or mock them or something. But you can do that from here and they won't even know.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:46 PM

If you're trying to lead it in a certain direction that doesn't seem like a discussion of curiosity - more like Confirmation Bias I think.
It's leading towards a specific topic. Any way people answer is acceptable (and interesting in quite different ways).
But there is obviously a specific topic which I am curious about and am trying to create a discussion on.
Perhaps somebody will provide an answer that goes against anything I had previously considered, or perhaps they will answer how I expect, but have reasons I had never considered before.
Either way, it's not confirmation bias to lead a discussion to a certain area, if it's that area you're interested in.

Sort of.
I'm curious. What are your thoughts on heaven/hell? Who goes to where? Is it for all eternity?

Beats me I've never been there. But I sincerely hope they get exactly what they deserve - no more and no less.
Most people can agree that Hitler was one of the most evil people in history.
But let's [picture somebody even MORE evil than him. Whatever in your mind would be the worst person in history.

Is there ANYTHING that a person could do in their 20-120 years on earth that would be deseriving of punishment for ETERNITY?

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 02:48 PM

You might be better served visiting Rapture Ready - but I'm sure you already know there answers, so not sure what the point would be - except if you just want argue with them or mock them or something. But you can do that from here and they won't even know.
I find the theists here are generally much more capable of rational and intelligent discussions than those typically found at Rapture Ready.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:53 PM

I'm curious. What are your thoughts on heaven/hell? Who goes to where? Is it for all eternity?

Heaven with God, Hell without God and apparently unpleasant. Of course, maybe some would prefer the unpleasantness. And maybe some will feel they deserve and will never forgive themselves let alone accept anyone elses forgiveness.

If you're really interested you might want to see some interesting fictional movies on the Afterlife topics. Watch:
What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams
The Others with Nicole Kidman
Flatliners with Kevin Bacon.

They'll give you some fun scenarios to think about.

Most people can agree that Hitler was one of the most evil people in history.
But let's [picture somebody even MORE evil than him. Whatever in your mind would be the worst person in history.

Is there ANYTHING that a person could do in their 20-120 years on earth that would be deseriving of punishment for ETERNITY?

Beats me - I'm not Omni-anything and definitely not a God. And I definitely dont know if there is some calculation out there with assigned values for certain sins to help you figure out the length of time or number of crimes to equal Eterenity.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:55 PM

It's leading towards a specific topic.
Either way, it's not confirmation bias to lead a discussion to a certain area, if it's that area you're interested in.

Why not just ask your real question then? Or make the point you want to make and ask for Theist feedback on it if anyone cares to comment on it?

theprestige

16th April 2009, 02:55 PM

For all the scenarios given in the OP: I don't know.

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 02:56 PM

I find the theists here are generally much more capable of rational and intelligent discussions than those typically found at Rapture Ready.

Are there many Rapture Ready Theists here or Theists who believe what you're questioning here? I haven't been here for a while, but when I was last here for any significant amount of time there weren't many at all.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 03:03 PM

Heaven with God, Hell without God and apparently unpleasant. Of course, maybe some would prefer the unpleasantness. And maybe some will feel they deserve and will never forgive themselves let alone accept anyone elses forgiveness.

If you're really interested you might want to see some interesting fictional movies on the Afterlife topics. Watch:
What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams
The Others with Nicole Kidman
Flatliners with Kevin Bacon.

They'll give you some fun scenarios to think about.
I've seen Flatliners (years ago). It was pretty decent as I recall.
Never seen the other two, but I may have ot check them out...

Beats me - I'm not Omni-anything and definitely not a God. And I definitely dont know if there is some calculation out there with assigned values for certain sins to help you figure out the length of time or number of crimes to equal Eterenity.
I'm asking for YOUR opinion here, not god's...
Do YOU personally believe that there is anything a person can do in their lifetime that is deserving of ETERNAL punishment?

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 03:06 PM

Why not just ask your real question then? Or make the point you want to make and ask for Theist feedback on it if anyone cares to comment on it?
I did ask my real question here already, and you've already pointed it out.
The various scenarios lead towards those questions.

If you said heaven to some and hell to others, can you explain the difference please?

In all of these cases, the person has never been given a chance, or the knowledge of YOUR god. So does YOUR god send somebody to hell for not accepting something they have no knowledge of?

If you said heaven to all, then for the sake of humanity, wouldn't it be best if NOBODY knew about YOUR religion, so that nobody would ever be condemned to hell again?
Those are the questions I am leading towards with my scenarios. I thought it was pretty clear by including those questions in the OP that they were what I wanted to discuss.

Are there many Rapture Ready Theists here or Theists who believe what you're questioning here? I haven't been here for a while, but when I was last here for any significant amount of time there weren't many at all.
There are at least half a dozen theists here that I know post "regularly". It's those people this post is intended for...

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 03:10 PM

I'm asking for YOUR opinion here, not god's...

Why? - I'm sure God's opinion is really what counts. But be that as it may ...

Do YOU personally believe that there is anything a person can do in their lifetime that is deserving of ETERNAL punishment?

Since we're here only a finite amount of time I don't know how what we do during that time would be infinite - but humans are rather creative in their ability to do evil so who knows?.

But I also think God will let you get exactly what you want and if you want hell forever - maybe your wish will come true.

An interesting book you might like is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. I agree with many of his thoughts. Especially the line (and I'm paraphrasing) "Sooner or later either you'll say to God 'Thy Will Be Done' or God will say to you 'Thy Will Be Done."

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 03:13 PM

There are at least half a dozen theists here that I know post "regularly". It's those people this post is intended for...

OK - I'll let any Theists who believe what you're asking answer. Good luck.

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 03:20 PM

Why? - I'm sure God's opinion is really what counts. But be that as it may ...
Well for me to agree that god's opinion counts, first we'd have to agree that god exists. So for now, I'd prefer your opinion, and your views on these subjects. I can't speak on behalf of others, and I can't expect you to speak on behalf of others either. But I can ask for your understanding of your religious beliefs and doctines.

Since we're here only a finite amount of time I don't know how what we do during that time would be infinite - but humans are rather creative in their ability to do evil so who knows?.
We are creative, that's true. But I personally am incapable of thinking of anything that can ever be done that is deserving either eternal punishment OR reward.
Maybe I'm just not creative enough?

But I also think God will let you get exactly what you want and if you want hell forever - maybe your wish will come true.
I suppose some mentally ill people would want eternal punishment in hell, but I doubt any atheists would (at least none of the ones I've ever met). I also doubt any hindus, muslims, christians, jews, buddihsts, etc would "want" to go to hell.
Me personally, I want to live my life, hopefully make the lives of those around me better, and not have other people's religious beliefs imposed on me and those I care about.
I really don't think too much about what will happen to me after I die, because I believe there is nothing after this life. If I end up in heaven (or hell), I'll obviously have to admit I was wrong (although if I personally end up in heaven there will be a fair number of christians and muslims that will have to admit they were wrong as well), but it's not something I put any thought into.

But I do put thought into what OTHERS believe, because in some cases those beliefs lead them to certain actions, and in some cases those actions have really bad effects on the rest of us (9/11 as one example).

An interesting book you might like is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. I agree with many of his thoughts. Especially the line (and I'm paraphrasing) "Sooner or later either you'll say to God 'Thy Will Be Done' or God will say to you 'Thy Will Be Done."
I read some of Lewis' stuff back long long ago. I don't really remember liking (or disliking) it, so maybe I'll have to give him another chance...

Malerin

16th April 2009, 03:25 PM

A Christian Sceptic

16th April 2009, 03:27 PM

I suppose some mentally ill people would want eternal punishment in hell, but I doubt any atheists would (at least none of the ones I've ever met).

There was an entertaining thread here a long while back about why people would prefer hell over heaven. Of course, whether they really meant it ...

Rodibidably

16th April 2009, 03:32 PM

There was an entertaining thread here a long while back about why people would prefer hell over heaven. Of course, whether they really meant it ...
There is of course the obvious joke I've used in the past when christians have told me they'd pray for me to "accept jebus into my heart so I can go to heaven"
My typical reply is "if you are going to be in heaven, I'd rather be in hell"

But if hell is as typically understood (Dante's Inferno type of deal) with eternal pain, I think it's safe to say that most people would prefer a different option.
Of course there may be other defiinitions of hell, and there may be some people who are into the "eternal pain" idea, but I'd guess they are far in the minority.

MG1962

16th April 2009, 05:12 PM

So what age is the cutoff?

And what if the older people lived a "moral" and "good" life, they just did not worship YOUR god? Will YOUR god punish somebody for all eternity because they were never told about YOUR religion?

The question is pointless without context. Just because a person worships a God, if they are still debased personalities, God's going to be pretty harsh on them.

What is the cut off?. What ever age a child learns or realises the consquences of good and bad choices.

schlitt

16th April 2009, 05:50 PM

The problem with these types of discussion is that theists think the choices people make come from some neutral woolly undefinable thing called free will. Ignoring different brain structure via genetics and life circumstances that actually cause the actions of people.

They therefore see choices defining people, and neglect the underlying reason why the person made the choice. It is all results based, and never tries to understand the why of the results.

Using this type of typical theist logic, a child gets off the hook if it dies before it has the chance to express it's physical makeup in society. A child with a brain that lacks the physical makeup for empathy and would have grown into an axe murderer, is judged on the fact that it never was an axe murderer.

I have often wondered, is this child allowed to mature to adulthood in heaven? If yes, what does god do with psychopaths in heaven who were let in via the child death loophole?

KarlG

17th April 2009, 04:45 AM

Heaven with God, Hell without God and apparently unpleasant. Of course, maybe some would prefer the unpleasantness. And maybe some will feel they deserve and will never forgive themselves let alone accept anyone elses forgiveness.

I've heard this a few times before, that heaven is to be in god's presence and hell is eternal separation from god. If god is omnipresent, how can there be a separation from god, a place where he isn't. Or is this just another contradiction that christians gloss over??

I've maybe oversimplified the argument. If so, can anyone explain it to me?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 04:57 AM

The question is pointless without context. Just because a person worships a God, if they are still debased personalities, God's going to be pretty harsh on them.
Many people claim that belief in THEIR god is all that is needed. I've heard from fundies in my family that god will forgive their sins, no matter what they do, because they are true christians. These same peopel have also stated that no matter how moral and good I live my life, that I will go to hell unless I accept jebus as my savior.

Personally I believe that is just delusional thinking, but I know for a fact that at least some segment of christians feel this way.

What is the cut off?. What ever age a child learns or realises the consquences of good and bad choices.
What about mentally disabled adults?
Or sociopaths?
If you're an adult, and you TRUELY do not realize the concequences between good and bad choices, are you treated like a child and let into heaven despite any acts you committed?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:02 AM

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:04 AM

sphenisc

17th April 2009, 05:27 AM

I have often wondered, is this child allowed to mature to adulthood in heaven? If yes, what does god do with psychopaths in heaven who were let in via the child death loophole?

Appoints them as Mods.

Holler Hoojer

17th April 2009, 05:29 AM

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:46 AM

Such scenarios miss the point of why a Korean Confuscist, no matter how exemplary his life, would want to spend eternity hanging out with Moses and Jesus, doing what they do, singing what they sing,...
If option A is eternal pain and torment
It ALMOST doesn't matter what option B is, it's likely to be an improvement

MG1962

17th April 2009, 05:47 AM

Many people claim that belief in THEIR god is all that is needed. I've heard from fundies in my family that god will forgive their sins, no matter what they do, because they are true christians. These same peopel have also stated that no matter how moral and good I live my life, that I will go to hell unless I accept jebus as my savior.

Personally I believe that is just delusional thinking, but I know for a fact that at least some segment of christians feel this way.

What about mentally disabled adults?
Or sociopaths?
If you're an adult, and you TRUELY do not realize the concequences between good and bad choices, are you treated like a child and let into heaven despite any acts you committed?

Ultimately I believe God expects us to take responsibility for our actions. Any person, man or child, who does not have the mental higher functions to do this would become a special case. If God is what I worship, I believe special cases will be made for these folks.

I really would not pay attention to fundies on this subject. They make up such a small percentage of the world's thesist population as to not even register on the radar.

Would all Americans like to be judged on the opinions offered by the Octomum, or Jessica Simpson, well it is the same for theisist. Because one extreme element says something, does not mean the rest of us fall into place behind them.

Nankay

17th April 2009, 05:55 AM

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:59 AM

Ultimately I believe God expects us to take responsibility for our actions. Any person, man or child, who does not have the mental higher functions to do this would become a special case. If God is what I worship, I believe special cases will be made for these folks.
So does somebody have to worship YOUR god to go to heaven?
Can an atheist who lives a "good" life go to heaven? If so, what is the purpose of your religion, if it has no effect on the afterlife?

I really would not pay attention to fundies on this subject. They make up such a small percentage of the world's thesist population as to not even register on the radar.
That is easier said than done, especially when those fundies are trying to control the political landscape of the US, and push their religion down the throats of others.

Would all Americans like to be judged on the opinions offered by the Octomum, or Jessica Simpson, well it is the same for theisist. Because one extreme element says something, does not mean the rest of us fall into place behind them.
I understand your point, and I agree with it (mostly). The difference is that while the octomom and jessica simpson may be ignorant fools, they are not trying to force their specific ignorance into science class rooms, marriages, stem cell research, etc...

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 05:59 AM

I've heard this a few times before, that heaven is to be in god's presence and hell is eternal separation from god. If god is omnipresent, how can there be a separation from god, a place where he isn't. Or is this just another contradiction that christians gloss over??

I've maybe oversimplified the argument. If so, can anyone explain it to me?

Well - I've probably over-simplified my thoughts on the matter. But I actually agree with you more than disagree with you. Some Christians think Hell is a place where God isn't and Satan rules - I've never heard how that could be apart from - "Hey, He's God, I'm sure He can figure it way."

Sometimes in my readings I actually think God's Presence is Hell (He is a Consuming Fire!) - to those who dislike Him or refuse Him or hate Him, while His Presence is Heaven to those who Love Him.

There is relatively little about Hell in the Bible, and the references seem to be tied to behavior. There's plenty of other verse people say are about Hell, but those aren't always that clear cut to me. You should do a study of the four Greek words that are commonly translated Hell even though they all seem to be different concepts being conveyed. I believe they are Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartaros (?).

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 06:02 AM

I asked the same question of a fairly conservative Christian and she said the non-believer would go to Hell. (good works don't count for anything) This is why it is so very important to them to spread The Good Word--so those people in remote parts of the world have a chance at Heaven. Now, as far as I know, the Catholic Church has a doctrine of "Divine Ignorance" or is it Divine Innocence where the person who has never heard of the Christian God gets a free pass.
I'm curious what this person would say about an innocent child... Babies are not capable of belief in god, so is hell filled with all of the miscarried babies and children who died throughout human history?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 06:07 AM

Well - I've probably over-simplified my thoughts on the matter. But I actually agree with you more than disagree with you. Some Christians think Hell is a place where God isn't and Satan rules - I've never heard how that could be apart from - "Hey, He's God, I'm sure He can figure it way."
If god is not in hell, he loses his omnipresence by definition...

Sometimes in my readings I actually think God's Presence is Hell (He is a Consuming Fire!) - to those who dislike Him or refuse Him or hate Him, while His Presence is Heaven to those who Love Him.
dislike god, nope I also don't dislike unicorns
refuse god, nope I've never been asked by any supernatural dieties to do anything
hate him, I think this would be covered by dislike, but I don't hate god, just as I don't hate bigfoot or nessie... Ok well maybe nessie, that bitch!!!

There is relatively little about Hell in the Bible, and the references seem to be ties to behavior. There's plenty of other verse people say are about Hell, but those aren't always that clear cut to me.
Most of what "we" typically think of as hell today comes from Dante's Inferno. But there are clear passage in the bible that refer to hellfire, etc...
And based on who is doing the reading, there are many interpritations of what will send somebody to hell (evil deeds, not accepting jebus, etc).

MG1962

17th April 2009, 06:20 AM

I understand your point, and I agree with it (mostly). The difference is that while the octomom and jessica simpson may be ignorant fools, they are not trying to force their specific ignorance into science class rooms, marriages, stem cell research, etc...

But again, the political landscape in America is irrelivent. God is not the exclusive providence of the United States. There are about 6.5 billion people in the world. About 300 million of them live in the US.

And the phenomena of fundelmentalist in the US is more a societial issue than any special attention of God. I am a new arrival in your country, but the thing that stands out to me is the extremism of opinions or actions.

No matter what the topic is, Americans only have two speeds, balls out, or no interest. And please that is not meant as an insult. You only have to look at WW2 or the space race to see the upsides of such attitudes.

And to answer your question about athiests, well actually I do think they would go to heaven. If you look at the New Testement, there is as much about loving our fellow man, and how to interact with them, as there is about worshiping God.

The only disclaimer I would put on that are those who are actively trying to damage the faith of others. And yes that door swings both ways. Those Fundementalists who claim the moral or intellectual high ground are in just as much trouble

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 07:04 AM

But again, the political landscape in America is irrelivent.
<snip>
There are about 6.5 billion people in the world. About 300 million of them live in the US.
That is true (to a point), and I could have referenced suicide bombers, etc, but I went with your examples of americans...
Yes, the US is a minor percentage of the world, but I live in the US, and the politics in the US affect me more than the politics in china, iran, egypt, brazil, etc... Therefor I am likely to be more concerned about the US politics than I am abut other places in the world.

God is not the exclusive providence of the United States.
And here is where we diverge...
You're assuming that YOUR god has a direct impact on the world. I am not.

And the phenomena of fundelmentalist in the US is more a societial issue than any special attention of God. I am a new arrival in your country, but the thing that stands out to me is the extremism of opinions or actions.
I personally feel the the reason the US is so fundamentalist in our religious beliefs is due to our youth (as a society) compared to most of the rest of the word, the foundations of our country having so much to do with religion (and the escape from religious persution), our isolation (two big oceans betwen us and most disenting thought), and our misguided belief that we are somehow "better" than the rest of the world.

Yes we seemingly have much more extreme opinions (Fre Phelps, etc), but we do not have the ONLY extreme opinions (Ray Comfort is an new zealander or aussie I believe).

No matter what the topic is, Americans only have two speeds, balls out, or no interest. And please that is not meant as an insult. You only have to look at WW2 or the space race to see the upsides of such attitudes.
Actually, I'd agree with this on almost all subjects.

And to answer your question about athiests, well actually I do think they would go to heaven. If you look at the New Testement, there is as much about loving our fellow man, and how to interact with them, as there is about worshiping God.
I'm actually happy top see this view from you. I belive that IF there is a god, and IF that god is generally "good" as we understand "good", then this woudl be true.

But, if an atheist is equally capable of going to heaven as a christian is, how would you respond to those who claim the ONLY way to heaven is accepting jebus?
And if religion does not affect the afterlife, is there any reason to be a christian as opposed to muslim or jewish or hindu or buddhist or atheist?

The only disclaimer I would put on that are those who are actively trying to damage the faith of others. And yes that door swings both ways. Those Fundementalists who claim the moral or intellectual high ground are in just as much trouble
I'm curious what you mean by "damage the faith of others"...
Does pointing out flaws in logic count?
Does pointing out contradictions within holy books count?
Does asking for evidence when people make claims count?
Does it count if the relgious belief being "damaged" is a false belief?

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 08:12 AM

If god is not in hell, he loses his omnipresence by definition...

OK

refuse god, nope I've never been asked by any supernatural dieties to do anything

Well when you are asked - probably how you respond will determine quite a bit, eh?

Most of what "we" typically think of as hell today comes from Dante's Inferno. But there are clear passage in the bible that refer to hellfire, etc...
And based on who is doing the reading, there are many interpritations of what will send somebody to hell (evil deeds, not accepting jebus, etc).

Dante's Inferno is the basis for all current ideas of Hell? I'm pretty sure there were plenty of other ideas about it floating around in the previous 1300 years (and probably longer!) before he wrote his book. But hey - after I play the game Dante's Inferno (http://www.dantesinferno.com/agegate.action) on Xbox maybe I'll change my mind!
ADDED: I have to say - I just watched the video of the game and I love the wispy smoke effects they are using. I hope some of that video was in-game captures and not just CGI for the advertisement.

Nankay

17th April 2009, 08:14 AM

I'm curious what this person would say about an innocent child... Babies are not capable of belief in god, so is hell filled with all of the miscarried babies and children who died throughout human history?

Yes innocent children are damned , I'm afraid according to this particular person. In Catholisism "limbo" was invented for those unbaptized babies that were stillborn or died before they were baptized. AND I remember being in 5th grade in Catholi school being taught to surreptitiously baptize ANYONE I came across in an accident and/or dying JUST IN CASE.... Ok, to be fair, she was a nutty nun who later had a nervous breakdown and was removed from the school. I also remember vividly the rage she showed me whenI asked, "What if they don't WANT to be baptized?" Yikes.

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 08:21 AM

And here is where we diverge...
You're assuming that YOUR god has a direct impact on the world. I am not.

So? Of course he believes his God impacts the world - it's His beliefs you are asking about. When you ask what someone believes and they tell you - you then adding "But I don't believe that." is irrelevant if all you're after is knowledge of what someone believes.

Have you ever taken a Cultural anthropology course? If not - I highly recommend it. You'll learn about lots of cultures and beliefs different then yours and you'll learn how to approach them to best learn about them without constantly having your own beliefs getting in the way of the learning.
I'm of course taking you on your word here that your "just curious" about other people's beliefs and don't have some other motive behind your questioning.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:23 AM

Well when you are asked - probably how you respond will determine quite a bit, eh?
If I am convinced that the being asking is indead supernatural and not a delusion of my mind, then honestly I'm not quite sure how I would respond.
If would expect that even if I was 100% convinced that is was a diety, if it asked me to do something I consider to be immoral (such as sacrifice my child, ala Abraham/Issac), I'd say no. If that is cause for me to spend enternity in damnation, then I guess I would have ot deal with that.

Dante's Inferno is the basis for all current ideas of Hell? I'm pretty sure there were plenty of other ideas about it floating around in the previous 1300 years (and probably longer!) before he wrote his book. But hey - after I play the game Dante's Inferno (http://www.dantesinferno.com/agegate.action) on Xbox maybe I'll change my mind!
ADDED: I have to say - I just watched the video of the game and I love the wispy smoke effects they are using. I hope some of that video was in-game captures and not just CGI for the advertisement.
Not the basis for ALL ideas, but certainy for many of the ideas that "we" generally associate with hell.

As for the video game, I have not seen it, but who knows...

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:30 AM

Yes innocent children are damned , I'm afraid according to this particular person.
That certainly doesn't fit with my concept of a "good and jest" deity... I guess that is just one more reason that chrstianity never "took" with me.

In Catholisism "limbo" was invented for those unbaptized babies that were stillborn or died before they were baptized.
Limbo always seemed to me to be a total cop-out.
They claim to be given a book by an all knowing deity, and when it doesn't make moral sense to them, they feel it's ok to make stuff up out of thin air. To me it would make me question the authorship of the book, not add to my beliefs.

AND I remember being in 5th grade in Catholi school being taught to surreptitiously baptize ANYONE I came across in an accident and/or dying JUST IN CASE.... Ok, to be fair, she was a nutty nun who later had a nervous breakdown and was removed from the school. I also remember vividly the rage she showed me whenI asked, "What if they don't WANT to be baptized?" Yikes.
GREAT question. I remember getting in a ton of trouble for calling Abraham a dick for being willing to kill his son when I went to various christian schools.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:47 AM

So? Of course he believes his God impacts the world - it's His beliefs you are asking about. When you ask what someone believes and they tell you - you then adding "But I don't believe that." is irrelevant if all you're after is knowledge of what someone believes.
If you notice I had pointed out MG and I agreed on the majority of his post, and I was pointing out one difference between his(?) views and mine.

Have you ever taken a Cultural anthropology course? If not - I highly recommend it. You'll learn about lots of cultures and beliefs different then yours and you'll learn how to approach them to best learn about them without constantly having your own beliefs getting in the way of the learning.
I have not, but I have read up on the topic a bit. Of course this post is about learning the views of others, as well as debating those views. If one is to debate effectivly you need to understand the views of the "other side", as well as be aware of your own views and reasons for those views.

I'm of course taking you on your word here that your "just curious" about other people's beliefs and don't have some other motive behind your questioning.
I'm not sure what other motive there could be.
It's not meant to be a "trick question", since I stated fairly obviously in the OP what questionsd my scenarios were leading to.

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 08:56 AM

If you notice I had pointed out MG and I agreed on the majority of his post, and I was pointing out one difference between his(?) views and mine.

You're missing the point MG was making - belief in God is not exclusively American and in fact most Christians are not American.

schlitt

17th April 2009, 08:58 AM

Well the other options are that we lose free will once we are in heaven, or that god sends truly innocent and good children to eternal damnation. I'm not sure most christians would be happy with either result.

Agreed.

Vic Vega

17th April 2009, 09:08 AM

Where in the heck is Kurious Kathy when you need her?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 09:09 AM

You're missing the point MG was making - belief in God is not exclusively American and in fact most Christians are not American.
First of all, I never claimed belief was an American only thing, or that most christians are from the US. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say that South America probably has the largest population of christians in the world (followed by Europe, Africa, and then finally North America just due to population density alone).

And actually I think you're mistaking his intent (althought I could be wrong). The point MG was making (I believe) is that we vcan't judge a large diverse population becasue of a few examples (i.e. judging all Americans based on the octomom and jessica simpson).

Even if you are right, and that was his point, I fail to see how my comments contradict that in any way (or even speak to that at all).

sphenisc

17th April 2009, 09:11 AM

Where in the heck is Kurious Kathy when you need her?

She moves in mysterious ways...

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 09:16 AM

Where in the heck is Kurious Kathy when you need her?
<really lame Craig Ferguson impression>
I KNOW!!!
</really lame Craig Ferguson impression>

She was one of the ones who's opinion I was really looking forward to actually.
I'm not sure how she'll respond, but I'm interested in her justification either way.

Really there are three options that my scenarios tend to lead towards:
1) god sends innocent children to hell
2) god lets innocent children into heaven, but sends adults who had no way of knowing about god to hell
3) god lets adults with no way of knowing into heaven

I would HOPE that most believers would at least WANT option 3 to be true (becasue I personally view option 1 and 2 as immoral), but I am interested in the opinions that would support option 1 and 2 (and if option 3 is "true" then I fail to see the purpose of religion).

Radrook

17th April 2009, 09:56 AM

Your question is unanswerable because the scenarios and god you describe are unbiblical.

Vic Vega

17th April 2009, 09:58 AM

She was one of the ones who's opinion I was really looking forward to actually.
I'm not sure how she'll respond, but I'm interested in her justification either way.

If she shows up, whatever her response is, I'm sure it will be evasive and preachy.

Hokulele

17th April 2009, 10:03 AM

Regarding the brief sidetrack over hell and the bible...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86948

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 10:05 AM

Your question is unanswerable because the scenarios and god you describe are unbiblical.
The scenarios are not biblical?
Babies don't die?
Young children don't die?
Adults don't die without ever learning about YOUR religion?

I'm confused...

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 11:25 AM

Your question is unanswerable because the scenarios and god you describe are unbiblical.
BTW, you realize that just because you're uncomfortable with the implications of a scenario, that does not make the scenario unbiblical.

Especially since I made no claims about god or the bible, I am ASKING theists to explain their understanding of what THEIR god would do in those situations.

Babies die EVERY DAY
Children die EVERY DAY
COUNTLESS adults who have never heard of YOUR god have died throughout history, and continue to do so today

Basically, I am trying to understand if theists believe that THEIR god will damn somebody to hell (which I understand to be everlasting punishment, but feel free to correct me if that understanding does not match your own) who is innocent, or somebody who is ignorant of THEIR religion.

You may not like the implications, but that does not mean the sceanrios do not apply to your own religion and your own god.

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 11:43 AM

Basically, I am trying to understand if theists believe that THEIR god will damn somebody to hell (which I understand to be everlasting punishment, but feel free to correct me if that understanding does not match your own) who is innocent, or somebody who is ignorant of THEIR religion.

Some do. Some don't.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 11:46 AM

Some do. Some don't.
And from those who do belive their god will damn somebody to hell who is either innocent or ignorant, I'm curious of the reasoning befhind this view.

And from those who don't believe this, I'm curious what is the purpose of religion in their view. It would seem logical that if ignorance allows one to get into heaven, then humanity would be better off being ignorant of the "one true religion".

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 11:52 AM

It would seem logical that if ignorance allows one to get into heaven, then humanity would be better off being ignorant of the "one true religion".

Why?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 11:58 AM

Why?
If a person know about the "true" religion
And they deny it (in favor of another religion or atheism), then many theists will say that alone is enough reason enough for them to go to hell, even if they lived a moral life

HOWEVER, if they can get to heaven by living that same moral life, because they were ignorant of the "true" religion, their "after-life" is better...

THEREFOR, if EVERYBODY on the planet is ignorant of the "true" religion, then everybody is judged on their actions, not on their supernatural beliefs.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 12:09 PM

Why?
There is also the issue that if therte is no more religion, that takes away one VERY BIG source of conflict with humanity that has cost countless lives throughout our history...

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 12:35 PM

If a person know about the "true" religion
And they deny it (in favor of another religion or atheism), then many theists will say that alone is enough reason enough for them to go to hell, even if they lived a moral life

But many don't say this.

HOWEVER, if they can get to heaven by living that same moral life, because they were ignorant of the "true" religion, their "after-life" is better...

You lost me here.

THEREFOR, if EVERYBODY on the planet is ignorant of the "true" religion, then everybody is judged on their actions, not on their supernatural beliefs.

Is believing something an action?

A Christian Sceptic

17th April 2009, 12:38 PM

There is also the issue that if therte is no more religion, that takes away one VERY BIG source of conflict with humanity that has cost countless lives throughout our history...

Ah yes, if we could only Imagine ...

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 12:43 PM

But many don't say this.
But perhaps one of those who DOES claim this is correct?

You lost me here.
If rejecting the "true" religion is an automatic "go to hell", but if ignorance is a valid "excuse", and one can live the same life and get to heaven due to that ignorance not counting against them, then this is as "better" option for humanity.

Is believing something an action?
I don't think we can force ourselves to believe or not believe something, so in that way, I'm not sure if beliefe can be called an action.

MG1962

17th April 2009, 04:46 PM

I'm curious what you mean by "damage the faith of others"...
Does pointing out flaws in logic count?
Does pointing out contradictions within holy books count?
Does asking for evidence when people make claims count?
Does it count if the relgious belief being "damaged" is a false belief?

Honest intellectual debate should not be discouraged. However a recent example that I consider willful damage was the claims that Pope Benedict was a Nazis when he was young. And the Catholic Church promoted holocaust denial.

The facts of the story were twisted by some to create an issue that really had no validity.

schlitt

17th April 2009, 04:48 PM

Is believing something an action?

It sometimes can be.

I personally lost my faith in Christianity, and I cannot believe it. For me it would be like believing in Santa Claus. If however if I chose to believe it on faith, then it becomes a chosen action.

I am sure a lot of people choose to believe because of reasons akin to Pascal's wager. Fear is the weapon of choice for monotheism.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:13 PM

It sometimes can be.

I personally lost my faith in Christianity, and I cannot believe it. For me it would be like believing in Santa Claus. If however I chose to believe it on faith, then it becomes a chosen action.

I am sure a lot of people choose to believe because of reasons akin to Pascal's wager. Fear is the weapon of choice for monotheism.
I don't think that I at least, am capable of choosing what to believe.
I think beliefs come from experience, knowledge, and logic.
I suppose on some level you can choose how to weight the evidence you are aware of, but the belief itself I am not sure you can say is a choice.

But then again, maybe that is just me. Perhaps other people CHOOSE what to believe.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:21 PM

Honest intellectual debate should not be discouraged. However a recent example that I consider willful damage was the claims that Pope Benedict was a Nazis when he was young. And the Catholic Church promoted holocaust denial.

The facts of the story were twisted by some to create an issue that really had no validity.
I believe it is true that the current pope was in some Nazi youth organization when he was younger. Perhaps I am wrong on that, but I thought it was a fairly established fact.
This does not mean that he was a nazi, but he certainly was involved in a nazi youth group.
I suppose this is an example of the truth being stretched to fit an agenda.

I've never heard that the catholic church promoted holocaust denial myself.
I have heard, and do belive that it is true that they "looked the other way" for far too long and did not do enough to stop the nazi regime in the '30 and early 40's.
I've also heard rumors that the church helped some nazis escape europe after the war, but as far as I know this is just rumor, and I am aware of the evidence (if there is any) to support these claims.
Since I've never heard the specific claim you're refering to, I'm unsure if it is another example of the truth being stretched, or if it's a lone wacko you heard this from.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:24 PM

schlitt

17th April 2009, 05:46 PM

I don't think that I at least, am capable of choosing what to believe.
I think beliefs come from experience, knowledge, and logic.
I suppose on some level you can choose how to weight the evidence you are aware of, but the belief itself I am not sure you can say is a choice.

But then again, maybe that is just me. Perhaps other people CHOOSE what to believe.

I agree with you that you cannot truly believe something if it does not make sense to you. What you believe is not a choice.

Such as choosing to believe 2 + 2 = 5.

What I am referring to is the choice to act in a certain way, aligning yourself with a belief system, despite the belief lacking credibility to you.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:54 PM

I agree with you that you cannot truly believe something if it does not make sense to you. What you believe is not a choice.

Such as choosing to believe 2 + 2 = 5.

What I am referring to is the choice to act in a certain way, aligning yourself with a belief system, despite the belief lacking credibility to you.
Well of course I could FAKE that I believe in god.
I could go to church weekly, say my prayers at bedtime, give thanks at meals, etc...

But if god truly is omnipotent, what's the point? Would lying about my beliefs be better or worse than being an honest atheist when it comes time to find out where I'll be spending the next few trillion years?

This is what has always made pascal's wager seem like such a crock to me. The idea that you can force yourself to actually believe something because of the chance of what may or may not happen after you die has always struck me as disingenuous.

schlitt

17th April 2009, 05:56 PM

Well of course I could FAKE that I believe in god.
I could go to church weekly, say my prayers at bedtime, give thanks at meals, etc...

But if god truly is omnipotent, what's the point? Would lying about my beliefs be better or worse than being an honest atheist when it comes time to find out where I'll be spending the next few trillion years?

This is what has always made pascal's wager seem like such a crock to me. The idea that you can force yourself to actually believe something because of the chance of what may or may not happen after you die has always struck me as disingenuous.

Yep, agreed. :)

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 05:59 PM

Yep, agreed. :)
Plus by being an open and honest atheist, I can get to Sunday brunch before the church crowd drinks all the champagne.

And I can catch the begining of the 1:00 NFL games without having to wake up to get ot early church services...
I hate waking up early, ESPECIALLY on the weekends.

Radrook

17th April 2009, 08:12 PM

The scenarios are not biblical?
Babies don't die?
Young children don't die?
Adults don't die without ever learning about YOUR religion?

I'm confused...

Yes, these things happen.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:17 PM

The answer is yes to all three questions.
Really?
I know that as a religious believer you and I don't see eye to eye on many things

But that you can't acknowledge a simple statement of fact such as "people of all ages die" is astonishing.

Are you HONESTLY trying to claim that babies, young children, and adults (specifically adults that have never heard of YOUR religion) NEVER die?
:jaw-dropp

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:19 PM

Yes, these things happen.
Ok now I am TOTALLY confused.
Your first reply (quoted in my previous reply) was "yes" which would imply that these groups NEVER die

Now you edit your reply so that it is the EXACT opposite?

I'm seriously confused...

Radrook

17th April 2009, 08:24 PM

Ok now I am TOTALLY confused.
Your first reply (quoted in my previous reply) was "yes" which would imply that these groups NEVER die

Now you edit your reply so that it is the EXACT opposite?

I'm seriously confused...

I had to edit it because that's not what I intended to say. Sorry about the inconvenience.
Should have explained why I was changing my answer.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 08:32 PM

I had to edit it because that's not what I intended to say. Sorry about the inconvenience.
Should have explained why I was changing my answer.
Ok, so if these things are possible (babies, children, and adults dying)

Can you answer the scenarios in the OP?
Can you answer the related questions in the OP?

And if not, why is that?

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 09:28 PM

Also, if these scenarios are possible (as you now admit), what did you mean when you said:
Your question is unanswerable because the scenarios and god you describe are unbiblical.
I never described YOUR god. I asked the theists to describe what they believe their god would do under various scenarios.

Radrook

17th April 2009, 09:36 PM

Also, if these scenarios are possible (as you now admit), what did you mean when you said:

I never described YOUR god. I asked the theists to describe what they believe their god would do under various scenarios.

OK. I understand. To describe the choices from their particular viewpoint. Since my viewpoint doesn't allow for a hell of torment established by a sadistic god for the sole purpose of inflicting eternal agonies via devils and demons, or an unqualified imediate transportation to heaven upon death based on the certain belief in an immortal soul, or bodies infused with spirits called souls which are babies?, then that explains my inability to answer your questions.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 09:45 PM

OK. I understand. To describe the choices from their particular viewpoint. Since my viewpoint doesn't allow for a hell of torment established by a sadistic god for the sole purpose of inflicting eternal agonies via devils and demons, or an unqualified imediate transportation to heaven upon death based on the certain belief in an immortal soul, or bodies infused with spirits called souls which are babies?, then that explains my inability to answer your questions.
So your reading of the bible does not include hell?
I guess your version has edited out a few passage then: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400

I never claimed a sadistic god or deamons, devils, etc... In fact I don't presume to know what you believe hell is.

You can define hell in any way you want. If your definition of hell is not that which is typically understood in society today (roughly the version from Dante's Inferno), then please feel free to describe it...

If you don't belive in the typically understood ideas of heaven and hell, then:
What happened to Hitler after he died?
What happens to an innocent baby after they die?
What will happen to you after you die?
What about my other scenarios of people who die? What will happen to them if not heaven or hell?

For the record, my understanding of hell is:
eternal punishment, pain, suffering, etc

Radrook

17th April 2009, 10:06 PM

So your reading of the bible does not include hell?
I guess your version has edited out a few passage then: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400

Not at all. My version doesn't arbitrarily use the word"hell;" for the Greek word Gehenna which was merely an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem where criminals thought unworthy of a resurrection were thrown. It doesn't arbitrarily use "hell" as a substitute for the Hebrew word "sheol" which refers to the common grave of mankind, and it doesn't arbitrarily use the word "hell" for the Greek word Tartarus which is a place reserved for punishment of disobedient angels and not humans. So it's not a question of editing out original expressions but resrtoring the original words as they were written and editing out the
substitution of the word hell instead.

I never claimed a sadistic god or deamons, devils, etc... In fact I don't presume to know what you believe hell is.

You can define hell in any way you want. If your definition of hell is not that which is typically understood in society today (roughly the version from Dante's Inferno), then please feel free to describe it...

If you don't believe in the typically understood ideas of heaven and hell, then:
What happened to Hitler after he died?
What happens to an innocent baby after they die?
What will happen to you after you die?
What about my other scenarios of people who die? What will happen to them if not heaven or hell?

For the record, my understanding of hell is:
eternal punishment, pain, suffering, etc

In reference to your questions about the dead:

If not heaven or hell two other possibilities have been suggested by some:

1. Total eternal oblivion
2. A rest or sleep in death until a resurrection to a paradise earth.

Rodibidably

17th April 2009, 10:10 PM

Not at all. My version doesn'yt arbitrarily use the word"hell;" for the Greek woird Gehenna which was merely an incinerator outside the walls of Jesrsalem where creiminals thought unworthy of a ressurection were thrown. It doesn't arbitrarily use "hell" as a substitute for the Hebrew word "sheol" which refers to the common grave of mankind, and it doesn't arbitrarily use the word "hell" for the Greek woird Tartarus which is a place reserved for punishment of disobedient angels and not humans. So it's not a question of ediuting out original expressions but resrtoring the origina words as they were written and editing out the
substitution of the word hell instead.
Fair enough. In all honesty, I don't know enough about the original words for "hell" to say if those comments are legit or not, so for now I'll have to let it go until I can look up more info on the subject....

In reference to your questions about the dead:

If not heaven or hell two other possibilities have been suggested by some:

1. Total eternal oblivion
2. A rest or sleep in death until as ressurection to a paradise earth.
Ok that is what "some" peope have said.
But what do YOU believe?

How would YOU respond to the scenarios based on YOUR understanding of your religion...

Radrook

17th April 2009, 10:31 PM

Fair enough. In all honesty, I don't know enough about the original words for "hell" to say if those comments are legit or not, so for now I'll have to let it go until I can look up more info on the subject....

Here is an informative article. I haven't read it completely so there might be some things which I don't agree with. However, it covers the gist of what I previously said concerning the words Hades Tasrtarus, Sheol and Gehenna which were translated as hell.

The Bible Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

Ok that is what "some" peope have said.
But what do YOU believe?

How would YOU respond to the scenarios based on YOUR understanding of your religion...

That's a question I need to give more thought to before responding. But I'll get back to you on it tommorow.

schlitt

18th April 2009, 01:21 AM

Forget the sophistry.

Revelation 14:11

MG1962

18th April 2009, 02:04 AM

BTW, since you mention the catholic church:

Do you think it's "fair" to point at the sex scandal as a MAJOR issue?
Do you think it's "fair" to say that in some cases the church harbored priest they knew to be pedophiles?
Do you think it's "fair" to say that those involved in hiding the pedophiles should be brought up on charges?
Do you think it's "fair" for a parent to say they would not feel comfortable for their child to be alone with ANY priest?

Yep I have no problem at all with the first three. The Church made some exceeding poor choices. But context needs to be provided, example the role of John Paul II, and the current Pope (before he became the Pope) in creating new guidelines for what is meant to happen in the US when such cases arise.

I have seen first hand these revised polices in action

On point three. I need to plead ignorance. I dont know what the law says on such matters, and the potential the case would need to be handled through Interpol adds elements I can't comment on with any confidence

As for children and priests, while I can understand the disquiet, I am comforted by the fact the vast numbers of priests, pastor, monks etc are good people and do the right thing.

To briefly touch on the Church and Jewish persecution, some Jewish scholars have suggested the Church saved somewhere in the region of 800,000 Jews during WW2 operating an underground railway to get them from harms way.

Often people who critise the Church for its actions leading up to WW2 are often poorly read on the Nazis rise to power. Depending on sources, anywhere from a 1 million to 3 million Catholics lost their lives during the war.

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 09:48 AM

I have seen first hand these revised polices in action
I'm still waiting to see the church impose a zero tolerance policy. Until that happens, I will continue to look upon this organization as one which has not learned from it's mistakes, and puts it's own well-being above the well-being of innocent children (which I find indefensible).

On point three. I need to plead ignorance. I dont know what the law says on such matters, and the potential the case would need to be handled through Interpol adds elements I can't comment on with any confidence
Would YOU personally want to see somebody who moved a priest they believed to be guilty of pedophilia to another parish, serve jail time.
Even if the law does not cover this situation, do YOU feel this is an action worthy of puinishment?

As for children and priests, while I can understand the disquiet, I am comforted by the fact the vast numbers of priests, pastor, monks etc are good people and do the right thing.
I'm not sure if you have children, but for the sake of argument, let's go with the hypothetical situation that you do.
Would YOU (knowing abpout the scandals in the past) leave your child alone with a priest that you don't personally know?
If not, doesn't this say something to you, about your personal level of trust of those who are supposed to speak for god?

To briefly touch on the Church and Jewish persecution, some Jewish scholars have suggested the Church saved somewhere in the region of 800,000 Jews during WW2 operating an underground railway to get them from harms way.
I don't think anybody disputes that some catholics did great humanitiarian things during the war.

Often people who critise the Church for its actions leading up to WW2 are often poorly read on the Nazis rise to power. Depending on sources, anywhere from a 1 million to 3 million Catholics lost their lives during the war.
Of those 1-3 million, how many were killed in battle, and how many were killed due to their religion? I may be wrong, but my understanding is that MANY plish people were killed by both german and russian forces. Those people HAPPENED to be catholic, but were not killed due to their religion, but due to where they happen to live (in the middle of germany and russia).

This is nowhere near the same as people being killed specifically because of their jewish faith. And to imply it is, is highly offensive (and I'm not jewish).

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 09:51 AM

Forget the sophistry.

Revelation 14:11
Seems pretty clear cut to me, but I can already see how Radrook will attempt to wiggle out of that one.

Radrook

18th April 2009, 10:42 AM

Forget the sophistry.

Revelation 14:11

Quaint that you should single me out for an accusation of purposeful deception since all I am doing is trying to respond to the thread subject like everyone else. Are such accusations necessary?

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Care to explain? What is the beast? What is its image? How could people still be worshipping while in torments of hell? Is worshipping of a wild beast allowed in hell? Is that during recess?
What is its name and what is the mark? If worshipping of a beast is allowed in hell, why punish the worshippers for worshipping it? I thought that hell was supposed to be all torment and no worship. Any explanation? Why are only the ones worshipping a beast depicted as bein in torment. Isn't the torment supposed to be for all unrepentant sinners and not just for those choosing to worship a beast? If the worship of this beast is so popular as to warrant special mention-can you please identify it. If you do, what is the justification for your identification?

BTW
There are many different interpretations given the images and language of Revelation. Some outlamndish while others scripturally justified. However, what isn't justified is a literal understanding since the author himself tell us that the language is symbolic in the introduction. Of course we are free to ignore that. But it leads to unwarranted conclusions. But some readers don't care one way or the other so what the heck!

Some ignore the satements that the things shown are to take place in the future and start claiming it describes past events. It's all part of the anything goes and anybody can if it's in the Bible mentality which leads to sloppy scholarship..

MG1962

18th April 2009, 10:44 AM

I'm still waiting to see the church impose a zero tolerance policy. Until that happens, I will continue to look upon this organization as one which has not learned from it's mistakes, and puts it's own well-being above the well-being of innocent children (which I find indefensible).

Well I know a local priest a few years ago was acussed of intefereing with a young girl. He was removed from his duties, and the local police began their investigation. As far as I am aware he confessed, but I dont know the ultimate outcome of the court case

Would YOU personally want to see somebody who moved a priest they believed to be guilty of pedophilia to another parish, serve jail time.
Even if the law does not cover this situation, do YOU feel this is an action worthy of puinishment?

Of course I believe some action should be taken. My point was I dont know wether such a law exists in the first place

I'm not sure if you have children, but for the sake of argument, let's go with the hypothetical situation that you do.
Would YOU (knowing abpout the scandals in the past) leave your child alone with a priest that you don't personally know?
If not, doesn't this say something to you, about your personal level of trust of those who are supposed to speak for god?

Yes I do have children, and no I have no hesitation allowing them to interact with a priest

I don't think anybody disputes that some catholics did great humanitiarian things during the war.

Yeah they do dispute the role of the Church. A quick google will show the number of books and opinions

Of those 1-3 million, how many were killed in battle, and how many were killed due to their religion? I may be wrong, but my understanding is that MANY plish people were killed by both german and russian forces. Those people HAPPENED to be catholic, but were not killed due to their religion, but due to where they happen to live (in the middle of germany and russia).

No that is civilian deaths. Many people dont realise that once Hitler gained control his first target was the communists, then the trade unions, then Catholic organisations. In pre war Germany the Catholic Church and the trade unions were tied pretty close together. His attacks on the Jews really only ramped up after he had disposed of the demographics that actually had enough power to challenge him

Also Hitler was upset that the largely Catholic south of Germany was not supportive of him, and he and his goons reacted accordingly. It was the same in Berlin, were the communists were strongest, his people were most active

This is nowhere near the same as people being killed specifically because of their jewish faith. And to imply it is, is highly offensive (and I'm not jewish).

I am not comparing the Catholic experience with what was inflicted on the Jews. Catholics along with Slav, Gypsies etc combined made up about the same numbers as the Jews on their own

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 11:12 AM

Well I know a local priest a few years ago was acussed of intefereing with a young girl. He was removed from his duties, and the local police began their investigation. As far as I am aware he confessed, but I dont know the ultimate outcome of the court case
"intefereing"? What does that mean exactly? She had to go pee, and he would not step out of the doorway to the bathroom?
I'm not sure why the courts would be invovled in that type of issue...
Do you mean that he was accused of molestation or rape, but for some reason you chose a different word?

Also, one example does not show the church has a zero tolerance policy.
The OFFICIAL catholic church guideline for dealing with preists accudes of misconduct, is STILL not a zero tolerance policy.
Until the church OFFICIALLY puts a zero tolerance policy into effect, any criticism of them is still warranted.

Of course I believe some action should be taken. My point was I dont know wether such a law exists in the first place
If no law dcurrently exists (which I do believe this would fall under the idea of "accessory after the fact") then if I was a catholic, I would be protesting my church to hold those who helped hide the pedophiles accountable.

Yes I do have children, and no I have no hesitation allowing them to interact with a priest
Including the priest you mentioned above who was accused of "interfering"? This was a person you perswonally knew. Did you believe him to be the type of person that would molest a child? Would you leave your child in this man's care?
Do you believe that priests are less likely than the general public to harm a child?

Yeah they do dispute the role of the Church. A quick google will show the number of books and opinions
I've also seen books that claim aliens built the pyramids. There are delusional people who will say almost anything.
I am not aware of any RESPECTED person who would make the claim that no catholics did good deeds during WW2. That would contradict obvious evidence, and anybody making such claims wouldd be ridiculed as a kook (and rightly so).

No that is civilian deaths. Many people dont realise that once Hitler gained control his first target was the communists, then the trade unions, then Catholic organisations. In pre war Germany the Catholic Church and the trade unions were tied pretty close together. His attacks on the Jews really only ramped up after he had disposed of the demographics that actually had enough power to challenge him

Also Hitler was upset that the largely Catholic south of Germany was not supportive of him, and he and his goons reacted accordingly. It was the same in Berlin, were the communists were strongest, his people were most active

I am not comparing the Catholic experience with what was inflicted on the Jews. Catholics along with Slav, Gypsies etc combined made up about the same numbers as the Jews on their own
Yes hitler was a madman. And yes he killed many civilians (both intentionally and unintentionally). And if you have evidence that he intentionally slaughtered 1-3 million catholics BECAUSE of their religion, please provide this evidence.
I don't doubt that some catholics were taken to concentration camps, and slaughtered. When you make the claim that 1-3 million catholics were killed during WW2, the implication is that they were killed systematically for their beliefs (much like jews were). Without evidence to support this position, I find it dishonest, and offensive to those who WERE systematically slaughtered.

Radrook

18th April 2009, 11:59 AM

If you don't believe in the typically understood ideas of heaven and hell, then:
What happened to Hitler after he died?
What happens to an innocent baby after they die?
What will happen to you after you die?
What about my other scenarios of people who die? What will happen to them if not heaven or hell?

For the record, my understanding of hell is:
eternal punishment, pain, suffering, etc

I tend to believe that if not heaven or hell then it's eternal unconsciousness or nonexistence. That applies to all the situations you mention above.

BTW
From a biblical standpoint we are born sinners. Defective vessels, as it were unworthy of eternal life. Also, from a biblical standpoint those who receive a heavenly reward are those who accept Jesus' ransom sacrifice. So under that scenario it seems that the conceived but unborn would need to wait for a resurrection, in order to be given the opportunity to decide what they want to do-accept or reject. Only the can there be a reward or punishment in their case. As for Hitler, if indeed he was fully responsible for his crimes [not criminally insane] and still justifies them upon being resurrected, then he has chosen death.

MG1962

18th April 2009, 12:35 PM

"intefereing"? What does that mean exactly? She had to go pee, and he would not step out of the doorway to the bathroom?
I'm not sure why the courts would be invovled in that type of issue...
Do you mean that he was accused of molestation or rape, but for some reason you chose a different word?

I used that word beause that was said by both the local bishop and law enforcement agency involved. I know he underwent physc evaluation and therapy before the case went to trial, so I would guess it had to be serious.

Including the priest you mentioned above who was accused of "interfering"? This was a person you perswonally knew. Did you believe him to be the type of person that would molest a child? Would you leave your child in this man's care?

Seriously if I had an impecable abliity to judge human character, do you honstly think I would be wasting my time chatting on this forum

Do you believe that priests are less likely than the general public to harm a child?

I have absolutely no idea, given the broad description peodophillia has in the US, I doubt anyone could realistically find out

I've also seen books that claim aliens built the pyramids. There are delusional people who will say almost anything.
I am not aware of any RESPECTED person who would make the claim that no catholics did good deeds during WW2. That would contradict obvious evidence, and anybody making such claims wouldd be ridiculed as a kook (and rightly so).

But to live in a perfect world. Many people believe many things without foundation. The credentials of an author or commentator count little these days. Virtually this entire forum exists because of this pheomena

Yes hitler was a madman. And yes he killed many civilians (both intentionally and unintentionally). And if you have evidence that he intentionally slaughtered 1-3 million catholics BECAUSE of their religion, please provide this evidence.
I don't doubt that some catholics were taken to concentration camps, and slaughtered. When you make the claim that 1-3 million catholics were killed during WW2, the implication is that they were killed systematically for their beliefs (much like jews were). Without evidence to support this position, I find it dishonest, and offensive to those who WERE systematically slaughtered.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

Feel free to be offended or emotive all you like. Dead is dead

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 12:59 PM

I tend to believe that if not heaven or hell then it's eternal unconsciousness or nonexistence. That applies to all the situations you mention above.
And I assume you have evidence to support this position, and not just wishful thinknig?

From a biblical standpoint we are born sinners. Defective vessels, as it were unworthy of eternal life.
To hold an infant accountable for crimes committed by it's anscestors would not be acceptable in human morality.
So clearly god's morality is not humanity's morality.
So I assume you're arguing that we do not get our morality from god?

Also, from a biblical standpoint those who receive a heavenly reward are those who accept Jesus' ransom sacrifice. So under that scenario it seems that the conceived but unborn would need to wait for a resurrection, in order to be given the opportunity to decide what they want to do-accept or reject. Only the can there be a reward or punishment in their case. As for Hitler, if indeed he was fully responsible for his crimes [not criminally insane] and still justifies them upon being resurrected, then he has chosen death.
So if somebody lives their entire life and never learns of jesus and YOUR god, there is no chance they could ever get into heaven? Even if that person lives an otherwise sin free life?

Radrook

18th April 2009, 01:11 PM

And I assume you have evidence to support this position, and not just wishful thinknig?

Are you asking just me for evidence or is everyone else who has responded to your questions included? Notice that I qualified my statement with the word "tend". Or I have a tendency to think along such lines. That gives me leeway. In other words, I am avoiding being dogmatic about it.

To hold an infant accountable for crimes committed by it's anscestors would not be acceptable in human morality. So clearly god's morality is not humanity's morality.
So I assume you're arguing that we do not get our morality from god?

1. Well, the explanation I have heard is that it is a question of heredity.

2. Socialization plays a huge part in how we acquire moral values.

So if somebody lives their entire life and never learns of jesus and YOUR god, there is no chance they could ever get into heaven? Even if that person lives an otherwise sin free life?

I didn't say that. A ressurection from the dead could grant the ignorant person a chance.
As for living a sin free life- biblically that's impossible for fallen humans.

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 01:11 PM

I used that word beause that was said by both the local bishop and law enforcement agency involved. I know he underwent physc evaluation and therapy before the case went to trial, so I would guess it had to be serious.
Have you learned since then what he was actually accused of? Would YOU refer to those actions (whatever they may be) as "interfering"?

Seriously if I had an impecable abliity to judge human character, do you honstly think I would be wasting my time chatting on this forum
You did not answer my question...
Including the priest you mentioned above who was accused of "interfering"? This was a person you perswonally knew. Did you believe him to be the type of person that would molest a child? Would you leave your child in this man's care?

I have absolutely no idea, given the broad description peodophillia has in the US, I doubt anyone could realistically find out
You seem to think it's ok to leave your child alone with a priest you do not know. I assume you either believe that priests are less likely to be peophiles then the general public, or you'd ALSO be willing to leave your child alone with any random person.

But to live in a perfect world. Many people believe many things without foundation. The credentials of an author or commentator count little these days. Virtually this entire forum exists because of this pheomena
You made the claim that "people" are unwilling to admit the church did ANY godo during WW2. You also claim that "people" have made other claims against the church related to WW2, but you don't think it;'s relevant to look at the credentials or respectability of the people making these claims.

By this logic, any claim ever made by anybody are all of equal weight and validity? That just seems liek a set-up for problems to me.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

Feel free to be offended or emotive all you like. Dead is dead
The way you stated the claim of 1-3 million catholics being killed in WW2 implied (either intentionally or unintentionally) that they were systematically killed for their beleifs in a similar manner to the jewish holocaust.

Even your own links states (bolding mine):
Though the scale of Christian persecution cannot be compared to the Jewish Holocaust of 1941-1945, except perhaps in Poland, the ultimate destruction of Christianity was one of the Nazis long-term aims.
Yes his end goals may have been to kill off catholics in the same manner, but nothing in your link shows that he had done this yet.

And to imply otherwise is dishonest.

Rodibidably

18th April 2009, 01:19 PM

Are you asking just me for evidence or is everyone else who has responded to your questions included? Notice that I qualified my statement with the word "tend". Or I have a tendency to think along such lines. That gives me leeway. In other words, I am avoiding being dogmatic about it.
I have not personally heard of the concept of a true end of existence from christians previously. So when somebody who seemingly is a christian makes a claim that I have never heard before, I'd like evidence to support that.

If you were to claim that jesus walked on water I would know already where you got this concept from.
If you were to claim that jesus flew, I'd ask for evidence (because I have never heard such a claim before).

In this way when you claim an end to existence, while my understanding of christian doctrine is all souls go to heaven or hell (or limbo, hehe), that is quite different from any previous claim I've ever come across, I'd like to see where this idea comes from.

1. Well, the explanation I have heard is that it is a question of heredity.
My biological mother was not married when I was conceived
My biological father was married when I was conceived (obviously not to my mother)
Am I guilty of adultery (or any other sins of my mother of father) through hereditary from the two of them? If not, why I am guilty of Adam and Eve's sin?
Let's say a man rapes a woman, and she gives birth to a child. Is that child a rapist due to the circumstances of it's conception?

2. Socialization plays a huge part in how we acquire moral values.
We agree on something.
STOP THE PRESSES!!!

I didn't say that. A ressurection from the dead could grant the ignorant person a chance.
As for living a sin free life- biblically that's impossible for fallen humans.
If a baby dies during infancy, what sin has it commited?

MG1962

18th April 2009, 01:30 PM

Have you learned since then what he was actually accused of? Would YOU refer to those actions (whatever they may be) as "interfering"?

I dont know what the outcome of the case was. He may been found not guilty for all I know. I was responding to the changes the Catholic Church made when such issues arise.

I have already said two posts ago that I did not know result of the court action.

Well I know a local priest a few years ago was acussed of intefereing with a young girl. He was removed from his duties, and the local police began their investigation. As far as I am aware he confessed, but I dont know the ultimate outcome of the court case

You did not answer my question...

I can't answer the unanswerable. I cant evalute with precision a persons personality. So any attempt to answer your question is a guess. Something I prefer not to do

You seem to think it's ok to leave your child alone with a priest you do not know. I assume you either believe that priests are less likely to be peophiles then the general public, or you'd ALSO be willing to leave your child alone with any random person.

Not at all. A priest has an expectation to live up to a moral code. But that was not the question you asked. I do not have statisical information to suggest wether priests are more prone to such behaviour than the general population or not. Intuitively the answer would no. Same as police officers who commit crime. Sure there are bad cops, but as a percentage of the 43,000 law enforcement officers in the US, I doubt it

You made the claim that "people" are unwilling to admit the church did ANY godo during WW2. You also claim that "people" have made other claims against the church related to WW2, but you don't think it;'s relevant to look at the credentials or respectability of the people making these claims.

Again this is not the question I responded to. You asked for examples of willfully damaging a persons faith. I gave one. If people paid attention to the qualifications of people to make claims, the world woud not be awash with fear about 2012

By this logic, any claim ever made by anybody are all of equal weight and validity? That just seems liek a set-up for problems to me.

I really have no idea what you are talking about

The way you stated the claim of 1-3 million catholics being killed in WW2 implied (either intentionally or unintentionally) that they were systematically killed for their beleifs in a similar manner to the jewish holocaust.

Even your own links states (bolding mine):

Yes his end goals may have been to kill off catholics in the same manner, but nothing in your link shows that he had done this yet.

And to imply otherwise is dishonest.

Directly ignoring the statement I made 2 posts ago - I have highlighted here for you

I am not comparing the Catholic experience with what was inflicted on the Jews. Catholics along with Slav, Gypsies etc combined made up about the same numbers as the Jews on their own

schlitt

18th April 2009, 07:53 PM

Quaint that you should single me out for an accusation of purposeful deception since all I am doing is trying to respond to the thread subject like everyone else. Are such accusations necessary?

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Care to explain? What is the beast? What is its image? How could people still be worshipping while in torments of hell? Is worshipping of a wild beast allowed in hell? Is that during recess?
What is its name and what is the mark? If worshipping of a beast is allowed in hell, why punish the worshippers for worshipping it? I thought that hell was supposed to be all torment and no worship. Any explanation? Why are only the ones worshipping a beast depicted as bein in torment. Isn't the torment supposed to be for all unrepentant sinners and not just for those choosing to worship a beast? If the worship of this beast is so popular as to warrant special mention-can you please identify it. If you do, what is the justification for your identification?

BTW
There are many different interpretations given the images and language of Revelation. Some outlamndish while others scripturally justified. However, what isn't justified is a literal understanding since the author himself tell us that the language is symbolic in the introduction. Of course we are free to ignore that. But it leads to unwarranted conclusions. But some readers don't care one way or the other so what the heck!

Some ignore the satements that the things shown are to take place in the future and start claiming it describes past events. It's all part of the anything goes and anybody can if it's in the Bible mentality which leads to sloppy scholarship..

I am not sure why you think I was purposefully singling you out. But since you responded to my post, lets discuss.

You ask me to explain key concepts in revelation?
In my opinion it appears to be the apocalyptic ramblings of a madman. I will leave the contortion of otherwise unambiguous language into new, cognitive dissonance reducing meanings, to the theologians.

The overall meaning of the verse is clear enough to anyone who is willing to be honest. The details of who the beast may be (Caesar Nero) etc, are irrelevant to what the verse is stating in terms or torment and timescale.

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Do you really need Lee Strobel or some other vapid idiot to tell you how to think about this verse? It is pretty self explanatory.

The question should not be what the verse is trying to say. A more pertinent question should be; "Is what it is saying true, or is it just the ramblings of someone who is deluded?".

The implications of these types of verses causes inconsistency in character to arise in the concept of Yahweh. This is the reason for the rampant sophistry i referred to in my previous post.

A Christian Sceptic

18th April 2009, 08:42 PM

The overall meaning of the verse is clear enough to anyone who is willing to be honest. The details of who the beast may be (Caesar Nero) etc, are irrelevant to what the verse is stating in terms or torment and timescale.

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Do you really need Lee Strobel or some other vapid idiot to tell you how to think about this verse? It is pretty self explanatory.

Just wondering - how high does something have to rise to qualify as rising forever and ever?

schlitt

18th April 2009, 08:48 PM

Just wondering - how high does something have to rise to qualify as rising forever and ever?

Since time becomes meaningless, so then does measurement of something which never ceases. Thus in this instance length/height etc is irrelevant. :)

bpesta22

18th April 2009, 09:15 PM

If god is not in hell, he loses his omnipresence by definition...
.

Just because you're in hell and not aware of god's presence doesn't mean he aint there. He is everywhere, so he is in hell. He chooses not to reveal himself to you because you're in hell.

Rodibidably

19th April 2009, 12:45 PM

DAMN. I had well thought out, spell-checked, responses written, and hit the wrong key and closed my browser and lost them...

So I'll try again, but it may not be quite as well written as my first take was...

I dont know what the outcome of the case was. He may been found not guilty for all I know. I was responding to the changes the Catholic Church made when such issues arise.

I have already said two posts ago that I did not know result of the court action.

Well I know a local priest a few years ago was acussed of intefereing with a young girl. He was removed from his duties, and the local police began their investigation. As far as I am aware he confessed, but I dont know the ultimate outcome of the court case

Silly me. I thought it was possible to know the charges without knowing the verdict.

I can't answer the unanswerable. I cant evalute with precision a persons personality. So any attempt to answer your question is a guess. Something I prefer not to do
I'm not asking you to evaluate his personality. I'm asking YOUR opinion.
Did you at the time you knew him, think him to be the type of person who would molest a child? This is a simple yes or no question.
I have personally met one person who I would say "yes" to that question, and they creeped me out big time, from the moment I met them.

The second question was, would you allow your child to be alone with this person? You don't need to define their personality to use your judgement as a parent. Every parent makes this choice many times while raising their children (baby-sitters, relatives, teachers, etc).

I am not asking you to evaluate his personality to tell me why why he molested children (if he did), but I am asking for YOUR views of him, and your willingness to leave your child with him.

Not at all. A priest has an expectation to live up to a moral code. But that was not the question you asked. I do not have statisical information to suggest wether priests are more prone to such behaviour than the general population or not. Intuitively the answer would no. Same as police officers who commit crime. Sure there are bad cops, but as a percentage of the 43,000 law enforcement officers in the US, I doubt it
Everybody living in a society has an expectation to live up to a moral (and legal) code.
It may not be illegal, but if I continually lie to people, eventually I will be ostracized by society. This is true if my job is in IT, house keeping, clergy, or CEO.

When you claim that you'd be willing to leave your child with a random priest you do not know, you're claiming you believe your child would be safe with them (or you don't care about the safety of your child, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt).

Again this is not the question I responded to. You asked for examples of willfully damaging a persons faith. I gave one. If people paid attention to the qualifications of people to make claims, the world woud not be awash with fear about 2012
When one asks for examples, one generally excepts mainstream sources, not the fringe of the fringe. To equate your example with people who believe in the 2012 nonsense just further shows the validity of your examples (which is the fringe of the fringe).

On a quick aside: If you do know anybody who believes the 2012 crap, try what I have tried:
Offer them $100 cash right now
In exchange, they sign over all of their possessions to you, effective Jan 1 2013
If they really believe it, they'll sign and get something for nothing
If they're just saying **** to get a reaction (which is most of them), they'll refuse

I really have no idea what you are talking about
You claimed that some "people" are unwilling to acknowledge any positive aspects of catholics during WW2 and the church promoted holocaust denial
The only people known to make these claims are obvious cranks

to use the claims of cranks to help make your original point, implies that the claims of cranks are of equal weight or validity to claims made by less insane people.

If you truly take all claims to have equal meaning, then I believe your life must be amazingly confrontational, because it's not hard to find at least one whack-job online that will hold some f'd up belief, that you'll then seemingly take seriously.

Directly ignoring the statement I made 2 posts ago - I have highlighted here for you

I am not comparing the Catholic experience with what was inflicted on the Jews. Catholics along with Slav, Gypsies etc combined made up about the same numbers as the Jews on their own
Your original post gave the impression (either intentionally or unintentionally) that you were claiming 1-3 million catholics were killed in the same manner as jews were killed.
Each time you've responded to this line of inquiry, you've failed to acknowledge this fact, and you've even tried to post links to defend your (indefensible) position.

If you continue to try to defend the position that implies 1-3 catholics were killed in a manner similar to the jews during WW2, I will continue to call you out on it.

Rodibidably

19th April 2009, 12:46 PM

Just because you're in hell and not aware of god's presence doesn't mean he aint there. He is everywhere, so he is in hell. He chooses not to reveal himself to you because you're in hell.
The quote you're refering to was about somebody's claim that "hell is where god is not".

Please try to keep up...

kurious_kathy

23rd April 2009, 04:02 AM

I'm sure this has been covered many times by people much more intelligent then me, but a conversation I had recently had brought this topic to my mind, and I just don't know the answer...

Basically, I want ot present a few scenarios, and have believers tell me if the person is question is going to heaven, hell, or "you don't know"...

6 month old aborted fetus
6 month old baby
2 year old child (parents are of YOUR religion)
2 year old child (of atheist parents)
7 year old child (parents are of YOUR religion)
7 year old child (of atheist parents)
7 year old child who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
13 year old child who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)
21 year old adult who has never heard of YOUR god/religion (perhaps living in a remote part of africa, asia, etc)

If you said heaven to some and hell to others, can you explain the difference please?

In all of these cases, the person has never been given a chance, or the knowledge of YOUR god. So does YOUR god send somebody to hell for not accepting something they have no knowledge of?

If you said heaven to all, then for the sake of humanity, wouldn't it be best if NOBODY knew about YOUR religion, so that nobody would ever be condemned to hell again?

I believe all children up to 7 and even possibly 13 will be saved and go to heaven. The reason I believe this is because the Bible seems pretty clear to make known it's when a person reaches the age of accountability he is responsible for receiving the truth of Christ.

As for the 6 week old fetus, very much a person even though not fully born so God I believe saves these little ones as again the Bible teaches us all life begins at conception.

As for the 13 year old not sure, could be not yet held accountable but I believe most teens are very smart so they are already accountable to accept Christ.

As for the 21 year old yes they need to know Jesus to be saved! If God needs to send a angel to even the remotest places I'm sure he can and does as he did in the book of Romans to save a Roman guard and his whole family. Do you remember this teaching?

We are told to go and preach the gospel to the whole world so they can know the truth and accept Jesus. I heard an alarming statistic today on the satellite radio I was listening to that said there is estimated over 1 billion people living today that still haven't heard of Jesus, Do you think this # is correct? I want to know how they come up with this # and where these people are if anyone can offer some insights?? If I can find a place that need people to hear of Jesus then I want to go share with them as this is what I know we are called of God to do. Only what we do for Christ will last so be a God pleaser more than a humanitarian. Jesus afterall is the one who loves and sacrificed for all people. Isn't He the ultimate humanitarian? Remember all his miracles of healing and how he fed and taught people? Jesus loves more than anyone ever can or did.

As for the differences betwenn heaven and hell it's pretty obvious if you read your Bible that hell will be a permanent separation from God where everyone will constantly be reminded of all the times they had the chance to accept Christ but didn't so they sent themselves there by their denial of the truth. Heaven is a place where God will make all things new including us so we won't ever have a sin problem again. Once we get this new beginning it will be awesome but for those who are persihing outside of Christ we must tell them who Jesus is and why he died so they have a chance to go to heaven too. Jesus is the only way to the Father! Is this clear enough to you?

Professor Yaffle

23rd April 2009, 04:59 AM

I'm not a christian now, but I can tell you my views on hell before I stopped believing in it all. I couldn't bring myself to believe that God particularly cared whether you believed in him or not - it was how you lived your life that mattered. Being of a particular (or no) religion didn't matter at all, but I believed it helped to guide you and give you strength to do the right thing even when it was difficult and painful for you. By that point, I believed that all religions were "inspired" by the same god, but that we fallible humans had twisted his words and revelations in different ways to further our own ends, and hence the difference between the religions. As to what hell was - I thought it might be that you got to live as the weakest member of a society that would have existed if everyone behaved like you did. If your behaviour changed as a result of this experience, you moved to the corresponding reality. I hadn't really given much thought to the issue of children and where they would "start", and whether they would grow up or not.

On the aside about paedophile priests, this was my parish priest when I was a teenager/young adult:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1472200.stm
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-evening-chronicle/2001/07/06/priest-s-abuse-shame-72703-11139343/

I knew the victim and was really shocked when I found out about it.

roger

23rd April 2009, 08:08 AM

We are told to go and preach the gospel to the whole world so they can know the truth and accept Jesus. I heard an alarming statistic today on the satellite radio I was listening to that said there is estimated over 1 billion people living today that still haven't heard of Jesus, Do you think this # is correct? Well, ya, roughly. Who knows exactly, plus or minus 300 million? ANd that is just the people alive right now. Think of all the people throughout history that haven't heard of Jesus. Several billion. Condemned to hell for something they couldn't control. Not wouldn't, but couldn't.

And you worship the being who condemns them to this eternal torment?

supercorgi

23rd April 2009, 09:13 AM

We are told to go and preach the gospel to the whole world so they can know the truth and accept Jesus.

But Kathy, you're not preaching the gospel, you are repeatedly hitting people over the head with it. People who have already informed you that they are exceedingly familiar with the Bible. All you're giving us are concussions in the name of Jesus.

(Just had a thought, being hit in the head enough times with a Bible could lead to brain damage - maybe that's KK's goal? If we're brain-damaged we might end up believing in her god.)

kurious_kathy

24th April 2009, 02:25 AM

Well, ya, roughly. Who knows exactly, plus or minus 300 million? ANd that is just the people alive right now. Think of all the people throughout history that haven't heard of Jesus. Several billion. Condemned to hell for something they couldn't control. Not wouldn't, but couldn't.

And you worship the being who condemns them to this eternal torment?

Now wait a minute, how do you know how many God did not save? We do not have a way to know this # of souls that are lost or saved, but we can try to reach out to all areas in the world to make the gospel known. My question is does anyone know of any specific places right now on the earth today where the gospel message is not getting to?

And as for your last sentence, I worship the God I know who has loved me and given himself to me so I can be redeemed and on my way to heaven. The song Amazing Grace really does state it all. I once was lost, but now I'm found. For those who accept and love the truth we now know the promise of God is true and all is forgiven. If you knew one simple prayer to Jesus could save you from the pit of hell wouldn't you want that assurance?

KarlG

24th April 2009, 03:54 AM

As for the differences betwenn heaven and hell it's pretty obvious if you read your Bible that hell will be a permanent separation from God where everyone will constantly be reminded of all the times they had the chance to accept Christ but didn't so they sent themselves there by their denial of the truth. Heaven is a place where God will make all things new including us so we won't ever have a sin problem again. Once we get this new beginning it will be awesome but for those who are persihing outside of Christ we must tell them who Jesus is and why he died so they have a chance to go to heaven too. Jesus is the only way to the Father! Is this clear enough to you?

I've asked this before - how can there be a separation from god if god is omnipresent? If god is everywhere, how can there be somewhere god isn't?

My question is does anyone know of any specific places right now on the earth today where the gospel message is not getting to?

From adherents.com, the number of people who believe in a particular religion -

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

So there's nearly 5 billion people who the message isn't getting to or who have heard the message and don't believe. Although christianity may be the largest religion, it is small compared to the number of people who don't believe it. And just look at this number -

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Give it a few more years at the current rate of growth and this will overtake christianity.

A Christian Sceptic

24th April 2009, 07:50 AM

I've asked this before - how can there be a separation from god if god is omnipresent? If god is everywhere, how can there be somewhere god isn't?

I've wondered this too. How's your denomination answer it Kurious Kathy?

A Christian Sceptic

24th April 2009, 07:55 AM

dafydd

26th April 2009, 12:26 PM

The British press has long used the word interfering'' as a euphemism for 'diddling''.

kurious_kathy

27th April 2009, 05:00 PM

I've asked this before - how can there be a separation from god if god is omnipresent? If god is everywhere, how can there be somewhere god isn't?

From adherents.com, the number of people who believe in a particular religion -

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

So there's nearly 5 billion people who the message isn't getting to or who have heard the message and don't believe. Although christianity may be the largest religion, it is small compared to the number of people who don't believe it. And just look at this number -

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Give it a few more years at the current rate of growth and this will overtake christianity.
Jesus went below to hell to tell those there when he overcame sin, but he is not there. Hell was created for the demons and I suggest all learn from Satans mistakes. No one wants to end up in hell but if you do not seek the Lord while he can still be found I do fear for your eternal souls.

And where did those stats. come from?