Jews as a special people?

[Gangularis]

Recently I was having a debate with my fundie christian father. As a fundamentalist Christian, he believes that Jews are god's chosen people. In our debate, he sent me an email with a list of all of these jews that are either great scientists like Einstein was, or people in power, and rich in finance like George Soros.. numerous famous comedians and actors, as well.

And basically, his point was, that for not holding a large chunk of the world population, with regards to race/ethnicity, they stand out as the dominant group when it comes to the realm of the elite.

First of all, I'm wondering, is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena?

And if so, why? Is it because they're particularly inclusive with one another? Are they just inherently more intelligent, witty, and better at making fortunes? Does it have something to do with how they're raised, in their culture? Or is it, like my father suggests, because they're god's chosen people? ( :p )

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Ah, Jews are just folks like the rest of us.

[Gangularis]

Ah, Jews are just folks like the rest of us.

I don't doubt that, entirely... but why are they so prominent in areas of such high social standing? Is it all coincidental? Or is there something more to it? And no.. i'm not talking about conspiracy..

[Cavemonster]

Well, Malcolm Gladwell gets into a bit of it in Outliers.
He talks about why the grandchildren of Jewish immigrants are so often doctors and lawyers and why Jewish Lawyers are so successful.

A lot of it seems to be a combination of education and exclusion. Jews have been excluded from careers of high influence at various points in history. Since they often came from a culture that valued literacy and education, they pursue employent in those realms that are open to them because of a social stigma to gentiles.

When Christians were forbidden to lend money at Interest, Jews became moneylenders. When hostile takeovers and other less polite facets of law were looked down on by the old Guard of Christian lawyers, Jews became those lawyers.

When social tides shift and suddenly those positions that would be very profitable or powerful if not for the social stigma become enviable positions when the stigma is removed.

To me, this explains a lot of financial success, how does that relate back to success in the arts and sciences? I'm not sure.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

There's only one Jewish family that I know of in town. They own the bowling alley/restaurant. They've done well for themselves, you know, financially. I'm just sayin'.

[Gangularis]

There's only one Jewish family that I know of in town. They own the bowling alley/restaurant. They've done well for themselves, you know, financially. I'm just sayin'.

What are you just saying? This has what to do with my post? Absolutely nothing. Where did I say that all Jews are all powerful and all members of a more elite realm in society? Again.. what is your point? Don't waste my time with "i'm just sayin"..

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I'm joking. Calm yourself.

[Gangularis]

I don't get the joke. It sounds like you're cheaply trying to invalidate my assertion, instead of approaching it with sincere sources that quantify it.

[six7s]

I don't get the joke. It sounds like you're cheaply trying to invalidate my assertion, instead of approaching it with sincere sources that quantify it.

Your assertion?

Which assertion?

The only assertion you have made so far is "i'm not talking about conspiracy"

:confused:

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Since I need to explain it, I suppose the humour has failed. It was a joke based on the idea that Jews control the media, the banks, and so on.


So in answering seriously, I would say that there are many reasons why there are many successful Jews. One would be that they have long been excluded and persecuted in many societies, so they've decided to stick together, and in some places live in close geographic proximity to each other, meaning that they support each others businesses (that's a guess). There may also be strong family pressures to do well in school, and not be satisfied with a "regular" job.

[Gangularis]

Your assertion?

Which assertion?

The only assertion you have made so far is "i'm not talking about conspiracy"

:confused:

I'm sorry.. I gave a question; which, in order to have that question, required an assertion from my father. Pay attention. My father made the assertion. Simply saying "you've made no assertion so far" does not make it true. My assertion is, at present, somewhat hypothetical - and is part of my first question. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to extrapolate that my first question, if given a certain answer, will result in an obvious assertion. It's a supposition that's based on an assertion, which becomes even more of an assertion if the first question is determined to have a "yes" answer. Your zionist colors are already showing. Too bad I can't just get an honest debate about this, without the Zionists jumping in, trying to discredit me.

[six7s]

What is this? 'Just Say No To English' week?

[WildCat]

Special Jews is special.

[Gangularis]

Since I need to explain it, I suppose the humour has failed. It was a joke based on the idea that Jews control the media, the banks, and so on.


I never put forth such an idea. You're twisting it. My father didn't put forth that idea, even though he's the one that was making these statements. He does not believe the Jews control the world, and neither do I. It's amazing how much people are already reading into this, and getting their own "ideas" of what I'm talking about. Does your mind think, exclusively, in caricatures?

[Gangularis]

What is this? 'Just Say No To English' week?

Good one. Second strike.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I never put forth such an idea. You're twisting it. My father didn't put forth that idea, even though he's the one that was making these statements. He does not believe the Jews control the world, and neither do I. It's amazing how much people are already reading into this, and getting their own "ideas" of what I'm talking about. Does your mind think, exclusively, in caricatures?

I know you didn't say that. Some people do think that way though. It was poking fun at the conspiracy theorist mindset.

If I've upset you or caused offense then I apologise.

[Cavemonster]

I never put forth such an idea. You're twisting it. My father didn't put forth that idea, even though he's the one that was making these statements. He does not believe the Jews control the world, and neither do I. It's amazing how much people are already reading into this, and getting their own "ideas" of what I'm talking about. Does your mind think, exclusively, in caricatures?

He's not suggesting you put forth that idea, he is mocking the very popular conspiracy theories about Jews.

[Gangularis]

I know you didn't say that. Some people do think that way though. It was poking fun at the conspiracy theorist mindset.

If I've upset you or caused offense then I apologise.

I'm not going after that, and I know it's really easy to blur that line, and that's all the more reason I'm offended. I'm looking for a serious discussion about something, and people are just trying to be clowns. It's something that's, unfortunately, all too common among the "friendly skeptics" of the forum.

He's not suggesting you put forth that idea, he is mocking the very popular conspiracy theories about Jews.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that I was posting in the section for amature, unoriginal, comedy. I should've expected this, with that being the case. My bad, for hoping people would give mature, informed, responses.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Well, again, I'm sorry that I appear to have derailed this thread.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Cavemonster provided the best explanation thus far. Another one to consider is that these success stories are almost exclusive to Ashkenazim and aren't really shared by their brothers anywhere else in the world. A good possibility of that is when the Holocaust occured many of the financially well-to-do families managed to survive by being able to afford fleeing the country while others were not. As a result the US, where most of these Jews are now from, managed to pick up a large number of the Jewish scientists from Germany who were not murdered. Many of the Jews today would be descended from these groups and would have most likely been raised in a home that valued education, intelligence, and creativity.

[six7s]

Good one. Second strike.Get off your high horse for a minute and think.

It won't hurt

My assertion is, at present, somewhat hypothetical - and is part of my first question. FAIL(1)

You might like to pretend that you have made an assertion

You haven't

I'm sorry it's so hard for you to extrapolate that my first question, if answered correctly, will result in an obvious assertion.FAIL(2)

Your first question:
First of all, I'm wondering, is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena?
No assertions

Rather, all you have done is post ambiguous, fence-sitting waffle

Think about it, from the perspective of those who have never heard of you before*:

Are you asserting that:

it is NOT true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena
it IS true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena


Your zionist colors are already showing. FAIL(3)

I am not a zionist

Too bad I can't just get an honest debate about this, without the Zionists jumping in, trying to discredit me.FAIL(4)

You aren't debating

You are merely abusing yourself, in public

__________________________
* Please note that, outside of your bedroom, 'those who have never heard of you before' equates to pretty much everyone on the planet

[Cavemonster]

I'm not going after that, and I know it's really easy to blur that line, and that's all the more reason I'm offended. I'm looking for a serious discussion about something, and people are just trying to be clowns. It's something that's, unfortunately, all too common among the "friendly skeptics" of the forum.



Thanks. I wasn't aware that I was posting in the section for amature, unoriginal, comedy. I should've expected this, with that being the case. My bad, for hoping people would give mature, informed, responses.

If you'd laughed it off or ignored it, it would've been one tiny post easily ignored. Threads here have a tendency to become heated quickly, and having a little humor, even bad humor, very often cuts the tension. In that way it is very useful to productive conversation.

Now Robin and I (above) have both answered your question very earnestly. If you are so concerned that the thread stay on topic, why not respond to those instead of deepening the derail?

[Gangularis]

Cavemonster provided the best explanation thus far. Another one to consider is that these success stories are almost exclusive to Ashkenazim and aren't really shared by their brothers anywhere else in the world. A good possibility of that is when the Holocaust occured many of the financially well-to-do families managed to survive by being able to afford fleeing the country while others were not. As a result the US, where most of these Jews are now from, managed to pick up a large number of the Jewish scientists from Germany who were not murdered. Many of the Jews today would be descended from these groups and would have most likely been raised in a home that valued education, intelligence, and creativity.

Thank you. This is the exact kind of stuff I'm looking for. As I said, my father simply believes it's because "they are a chosen people".. I'm looking for the reality of the matter.

[Gangularis]

Get off your high horse for a minute and think.

It won't hurt

FAIL(1)

You might like to pretend that you have made an assertion

You haven't

FAIL(2)

Your first question:

No assertions

Rather, all you have done is post ambiguous, fence-sitting waffle

Think about it, from the perspective of those who have never heard of you before*:

Are you asserting that:

it is NOT true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena
it IS true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena


FAIL(3)

I am not a zionist

FAIL(4)

You aren't debating

You are merely abusing yourself, in public

__________________________
* Please note that, outside of your bedroom, 'those who have never heard of you before' equates to pretty much everyone on the planet

Wow, you never heard of me means what? What a garbage statement to make. You have to hear of me before you can do what, exactly? My questions and assertions rely on your knowledge of who I am for what reason, exactly? What drivel.

I obviously made the supposition that Jews hold a dominant position in the elite crowd. That's not "waffle fence sitting" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), that's asking a question. If given a yes answer to my first question, you will have an assertion to address my second question. I also stated my father's assertions which I posed here as assertions for you to argue for or against. You're nitpicking, instead of addressing the topic. Pathetic. You're very obviously pro-Zion, or so pro-Jew, and that's why you're taking such an apprehensive approach to my question. It's like I can't ask a question about Jews, without getting this anti-anti-Semite wrath.. Instead of addressing my very straight forward question, you try to attack any flaws in my method, no matter how minuscule.

Why don't you stop addressing contrivances and address the question? Other SANE people here have been able to figure out what I was asking, so far. Only an exceptionally agenda driven person would go off the deep end in the direction you're headed..

[DC]

I dont think Jews are choosen by God, because there is no God.
They often, if not mostly, maintain their culture and are all? very well educated (At least every single one i know personally) they are mostly good businessmen.
this seem to make em often a target for outrage and conspiracy theories.

[six7s]

you're very obviously pro-ZionThis shows me, all by itself, what an idiotic, ridiculous load of ignorant wank your so-called position is

FYI:

I am an atheist, born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and culture

I spend so little time thinking about Judaism, Israel, Palestine, etc that I have to pause and think which is which when I hear the terms anti-semitism and/or anti-Zionism

[Gangularis]

This shows me, all by itself, what an idiotic, ridiculous load of ignorant wank your so-called position is

FYI:

I am an atheist, born and raised in a Roman Catholic family and culture

I spend so little time thinking about Judaism, Israel, Palestine, etc that I have to pause and think which is which when I hear the terms anti-semitism and/or anti-Zionism

My position that Jews aren't god's chosen people is an idiotic, ridiculous load of ignorant wank? And there's other reasons as to why they're so prominent in higher levels of social status, even though they're somewhat of a minority "race"? Okay. Instead of looking for minuscule reasons to hate.. why not give me your opinion or answer? Or are you just in flame mode?

[six7s]

My position that Jews aren't god's chosen people is an idiotic, ridiculous load of ignorant wank? Ok.No

Your position that you are intellectually capable of participating in "an honest debate about this"

[Gangularis]

No

Your position that you are intellectually capable of participating in "an honest debate about this"

I haven't found anything to disagree with from anyone else that provided some insight on the matter.. Do you have something to add, or are you just interested in attempts at ridiculing petty contrivances, as opposed to addressing the obvious questions I put forth?

[Cavemonster]

Ok, the both of youse.
I'm sure you both realize that you're arguing about nothing.
The only content of your exchanges here is strange misunderstandings and rudeness.

May I suggest that any new rounds of argument will simply add layers of misunderstanding and rudeness, and that the best course of action for all involved, and for any possibility of a meaningful thread, is to drop it.

[Gangularis]

Ok, the both of youse.
I'm sure you both realize that you're arguing about nothing.
The only content of your exchanges here is strange misunderstandings and rudeness.

May I suggest that any new rounds of argument will simply add layers of misunderstanding and rudeness, and that the best course of action for all involved, and for any possibility of a meaningful thread, is to drop it.

fine by me. :p

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I dont think Jews are choosen by God, because there is no God.
They often, if not mostly, maintain their culture and are all? very well educated (At least every single one i know personally) they are mostly good businessmen.
this seem to make em often a target for outrage and conspiracy theories.

Eh...I have my own theory on it. Much of conspiracy theory concerning Jews here in the West is a result of Christian hysteria in the old world. Jews were not only outsiders, they were outsiders in a continent full of people who were held under a church who was utterly hostile to anyone who wasn't of their faith in a time in which xenophobia was a virtue. Not to mention that they trained whole sections of the clergy to be paranoid about the influence of any slight deviation in doctrine and were utterly violent in their means of aquiring confession and punishment, some of the torture devices of the Spanish Inquisition make The Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition look like a frakking slumber party! Let alone no one ever expecting them!

Now that I've referanced pop culture thrice I can continue on with my explanation. These facts are why we have conspiracy theories about the Jews. Namely that there have ALWAYS been conspiracy theories about the Jews! It's well-known that the Jews were accused of poisoning wells in Catholic Europe during the plague, and allegations of blood libel were never in short supply. The culture permeating within the Jews saw them become bankers and lawyers as others mentioned. When the law and banking became more important in the economy and daily life is when we saw the birth of modern Jewish paranoia. By the way, this is why I consider the Protocols to be so unrealistically impossible. If they are true, and they aren't, then the Jews would have had to have been planning this massive take over for at least a thousand years and shown a remarkable ability to predict future trends!

Previously it was based solely on religious grounds, even that destable piece of **** Martin Luther opposed the killing of Jews so long as they were Christian (but abhorred the fact that we hadn't obliterated those who wouldn't convert). And, IMO, this is where we get Jewish conspiracy theories from.

[Gangularis]

I would like to help put some of those conspiracy theories to rest, in this thread..

But to start, is there anyone that takes issue with my first question/supposition?

i.e.: "is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena? " I think you know what I mean by elitist.. If not, maybe we need to flesh that definition out, more?

The only reason I want to be clear on this is because I don't want to go into the second part of my question if the first question/supposition is patently untrue.

[Cavemonster]

I could add that the more closed and self sufficient nature of traditional jewish communities pre-dated Europen Christianity and probably compounded Christian suspicion of the "outsiders"

[portlandatheist]

Recently I was having a debate with my fundie christian father. As a fundamentalist Christian, he believes that Jews are god's chosen people. In our debate, he sent me an email with a list of all of these jews that are either great scientists like Einstein was, or people in power, and rich in finance like George Soros.. numerous famous comedians and actors, as well.

And basically, his point was, that for not holding a large chunk of the world population, with regards to race/ethnicity, they stand out as the dominant group when it comes to the realm of the elite.

First of all, I'm wondering, is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena?

And if so, why? Is it because they're particularly inclusive with one another? Are they just inherently more intelligent, witty, and better at making fortunes? Does it have something to do with how they're raised, in their culture? Or is it, like my father suggests, because they're god's chosen people? ( :p )

I think what you are looking for is nothing more complicated that your simple, ordinary, run-of-the-mill confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) in action. No matter how you define "elite" there are plenty of Jews that don't fall in that category and plenty of non Jews that do...but for reasons that are beyond me, some people have a a fixation on Jewishness and seek correlations where there are none to be found. There are plenty of great physicists, other than Einstein, who are not Jewish. There are plenty of Jews who are neither rich, famous, or otherwise particularly talented or special in any way.....just like the rest of us.

[Gangularis]

I think what you are looking for is nothing more complicated that your simple, ordinary, run-of-the-mill confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) in action. No matter how you define "elite" there are plenty of Jews that don't fall in that category and plenty of non Jews that do...but for reasons that are beyond me, some people have a a fixation on Jewishness and seek correlations where there are none to be found. There are plenty of great physicists, other than Einstein, who are not Jewish. There are plenty of Jews who are neither rich, famous, or otherwise particularly talented or special in any way.....just like the rest of us.

I understand that there are plenty of non-jews in the elite crowd.. there are also plenty of Jews that don't get into the elite crowd.. but it seems that the highest percentage of people, based on race, in the upper echelon of society, are Jews. And it's not only that.. but that Jews aren't a predominant race on the planet.. So it's notable that, although they aren't the most populous a race, they're quite significant in the top tier of society.. My question is; "Why is that?".. And, just to reiterate this again.. I don't mean to make this into some conspiracy theory crap.. I'm only interested in the reality of the matter, because I believe there has got to be some solid reasons for this.

[portlandatheist]

I understand that there are plenty of non-jews in the elite crowd.. there are also plenty of Jews that don't get into the elite crowd.. but it seems that the highest percentage of people, based on race, in the upper echelon of society, are Jews. And it's not only that.. but that Jews aren't a predominant race on the planet.. So it's notable that, although they aren't the most populous a race, they're quite significant in the top tier of society.. My question is; "Why is that?".. And, just to reiterate this again.. I don't mean to make this into some conspiracy theory crap.. I'm only interested in the reality of the matter.

Its and interesting proposition but I think you will find it fruitless. To carry this argument further, we would need hard data and remember that correlation is not causation. For example, if we looked at the 100 richest individuals on the planet, and calculate what percentage is Jewish, we may indeed find that Jews are over represented as a group, in terms of the world's population, but may fall into step with the percentage of the American population(implying that its linked to nationality and not Jewishness)....now I have no idea if that is true or not, its just an examle. So I think you need a specific metric....like wealth, individuals that have a PhD in physics, career comics, or whatever criteria you wish and then calculate if they are an overrepresented group or not. I have no numbers but my gut tells me you would be chasing butterflies.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Is Jewish a race? I know this could lead to a derail about race is/is not a real thing, but I've always considered it a religion. I can convert to Judaism, but I can't convert to black.

[dann]

I had an uncle with the same ideas as Gangularis's father, not a Jew himself but unlike G's father not even a Christian. I never heard him express any religious sentiments at all.

When social tides shift and suddenly those positions that would be very profitable or powerful if not for the social stigma become enviable positions when the stigma is removed.

To me, this explains a lot of financial success, how does that relate back to success in the arts and sciences? I'm not sure.


The irony is that the persecutions of Jews probably contributed to making them successful businessmen and scientists. You mention their role as moneylenders when Christian merchants weren't allowed to demand interests for loans. (The Merchant of Venice)
The persecution also meant that Jews weren't allowed to be landowners, which would otherwise have been a way of investing their money, and in some countries they were also excluded from the guilds. So what's left? Theoretical educations, which also, like money, gold, travel well when you are forced to leave a country and settle down somewhere else. So you have a group of people who, when secularised, make an impact in fields of academia as diverse as those of Einstein, Freud and Marx.
I guess that the compulsion to adapt to suspicious/hostile surroundings may also have contributed to the attitude of Jewish mothers you see parodied in sitcoms like The Nanny or in Woody Allen movies - and the consequent neuroses in their children - if the whole thing is actually more than a myth ...

A weird professor of psychology (specialty: IQ) in Denmark once vented the idea that the alleged higher IQ average of [/url] was a result of Nazi persecutions, of Holocaust: Only the smartest (= high IQ) Jews managed to escape and reproduce!
I don't subscribe to his ideas.
[url=http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/iq1.htm]The Democratically Purified Racism (Ashkenazi Jews)
How Intelligent Is the Average IQ-Test Designer? (http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/iq2.htm)
Their tendency to get higher educations is a better explanation.

[Cavemonster]

I think what you are looking for is nothing more complicated that your simple, ordinary, run-of-the-mill confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) in action. No matter how you define "elite" there are plenty of Jews that don't fall in that category and plenty of non Jews that do...but for reasons that are beyond me, some people have a a fixation on Jewishness and seek correlations where there are none to be found. There are plenty of great physicists, other than Einstein, who are not Jewish. There are plenty of Jews who are neither rich, famous, or otherwise particularly talented or special in any way.....just like the rest of us.

But I think there truly is a dispropotionate representation.
Jews make up around 1% of world population, yet-
20% of nobel prizes for physics have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine

The clear majority of major producers in Hollywood.

This isn't to say that all great scientists or producers are Jewish, or that all Jews are successful practitioners in these fields. But there is a very clear difference from a random distribution that is not confirmation bias.

[Cavemonster]

I guess that the compulsion to adapt to suspicious/hostile surroundings may also have contributed to the attitude of Jewish mothers you see parodied in sitcoms like The Nanny or in Woody Allen movies - and the consequent neuroses in their children - if the whole thing is actually more than a myth ...


Having been brought up by a Jewish Mother, I can assure you, the mythology is accurate.

[Gangularis]

I think you need a specific metric....like wealth, individuals that have a PhD in physics, career comics, or whatever criteria you wish and then calculate if they are an overrepresented group or not. I have no numbers but my gut tells me you would be chasing butterflies.

Yes, I would like a specific metric. As of now, I'm going based on the fact that I see evidence backing the idea that Jews (why does that always sound like i"m just trying to insult when I use that word) are the majority culture/race in the upper tier of society. I'm very drunk, and tired right now.. so I probably won't be much use on this matter. Hopefully someone else can put forth something constructive that either demolishes this supposition, or reinforces it with more solid numbers.

ETA.. still drunk.. but after rereading, not sure i should've posted this last post. :p

[dann]

20% of nobel prizes for physics have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine ?

Having been brought up by a Jewish Mother, I can assure you, the mythology is accurate.

And I can assure you that many goy mothers exhibit the same kind of behaviour! :)

Correction of a sentence in post 39: A weird professor of psychology (specialty: IQ) in Denmark once vented the idea that the alleged higher IQ average of Ashkenazi Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews) was a result of Nazi persecutions, of the Holocaust:

[Cainkane1]

Recently I was having a debate with my fundie christian father. As a fundamentalist Christian, he believes that Jews are god's chosen people. In our debate, he sent me an email with a list of all of these jews that are either great scientists like Einstein was, or people in power, and rich in finance like George Soros.. numerous famous comedians and actors, as well.

And basically, his point was, that for not holding a large chunk of the world population, with regards to race/ethnicity, they stand out as the dominant group when it comes to the realm of the elite.

First of all, I'm wondering, is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena?

And if so, why? Is it because they're particularly inclusive with one another? Are they just inherently more intelligent, witty, and better at making fortunes? Does it have something to do with how they're raised, in their culture? Or is it, like my father suggests, because they're god's chosen people? ( :p )
I worked for Sportime for several years and there were a lot of jewish people working there including the owners. I do feel Jews are special, especially cool.

[hgc]

Since I need to explain it, I suppose the humour has failed. It was a joke based on the idea that Jews control the media, the banks, and so on.

...


I laughed out loud when I read it. The humor did not fail, except in the ears of some listeners. Not all good jokes are understood by all people.

[applecorped]

Yes, I would like a specific metric. As of now, I'm going based on the fact that I see evidence backing the idea that Jews (why does that always sound like i"m just trying to insult when I use that word) are the majority culture/race in the upper tier of society. I'm very drunk, and tired right now.. so I probably won't be much use on this matter. Hopefully someone else can put forth something constructive that either demolishes this supposition, or reinforces it with more solid numbers.

ETA.. still drunk.. but after rereading, not sure i should've posted this last post. :p


:rolleyes: - drunk posting. Oy vey!

[firecoins]

I am Jewish. I do stand up and no one has heard of me. I am unsucessful. I do not have alot of money. I am just saying.

[Cavemonster]

But I think there truly is a dispropotionate representation.
Jews make up around 1% of world population, yet-
20% of nobel prizes for physics have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine


Whoops, typo there, the 20% rate should have said Chemistry
Source (http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html)

[Holler Hoojer]

Recently I was having a debate with my fundie christian father. As a fundamentalist Christian, he believes that Jews are god's chosen people. In our debate, he sent me an email with a list of all of these jews that are either great scientists like Einstein was, or people in power, and rich in finance like George Soros.. numerous famous comedians and actors, as well.

And basically, his point was, that for not holding a large chunk of the world population, with regards to race/ethnicity, they stand out as the dominant group when it comes to the realm of the elite.

First of all, I'm wondering, is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena? No.

And if so, why? Is it because they're particularly inclusive with one another? Are they just inherently more intelligent, witty, and better at making fortunes? Does it have something to do with how they're raised, in their culture? Or is it, like my father suggests, because they're god's chosen people? ( :p ) N/A

In a word, no.

[Bikewer]

One has to wonder why Yahweh or Jehovah or whoever would have settled on this rag-tag group of itinerant desert-dwellers as his "Chosen People"?

I mean, there were plenty of other candidates...The Chinese were advanced technologically at that time, and any of a number of other civilizations would have welcomed a nice, potent deity who told them to chuck the old guys out...

[Cavemonster]

One has to wonder why Yahweh or Jehovah or whoever would have settled on this rag-tag group of itinerant desert-dwellers as his "Chosen People"?

I mean, there were plenty of other candidates...The Chinese were advanced technologically at that time, and any of a number of other civilizations would have welcomed a nice, potent deity who told them to chuck the old guys out...

Ah, but if you read the OT closely, you'll note that Yahweh happens to have a penchant for burnt goat. In fact, I think "The smell shall be pleasing to the lord" or something like it is mentioned a couple times. The nomadic herders just happend to have a decent supply of goats and a willingness to burn them.

[Mark6]

But I think there truly is a dispropotionate representation.
Jews make up around 1% of world population, yet-
20% of nobel prizes for physics chemistry have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine

The clear majority of major producers in Hollywood.

This isn't to say that all great scientists or producers are Jewish, or that all Jews are successful practitioners in these fields. But there is a very clear difference from a random distribution that is not confirmation bias.
Very likely comes from the fact that nearly all Jewish parents insist that they children get as high formal education as possible, while percentage of non-Jewish parents which are similarly determined is much lower.

Chinese culture puts similar emphasis on the value of formal education, and it shows among Chinese in US. The difference is that vast majority of Chinese children in China had (and still have) no access to higher education, no matter how much they parents may want them to.

[Gangularis]

Ah, but if you read the OT closely, you'll note that Yahweh happens to have a penchant for burnt goat. In fact, I think "The smell shall be pleasing to the lord" or something like it is mentioned a couple times. The nomadic herders just happend to have a decent supply of goats and a willingness to burn them.

rofl

:dl:

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I could add that the more closed and self sufficient nature of traditional jewish communities pre-dated Europen Christianity and probably compounded Christian suspicion of the "outsiders"

Quite right

Is Jewish a race? I know this could lead to a derail about race is/is not a real thing, but I've always considered it a religion. I can convert to Judaism, but I can't convert to black.

They're considered a non-exclusive ethnic group (similiar to the Cossacks and the Habiru) and an ethnoreligious group (similiar to the Amish)

[six7s]

Wow, you never heard of me means what? It means I can't guess what you mean when - as in the OP - you make vague, ambiguous statements

I obviously made the supposition that Jews hold a dominant position in the elite crowd.Obvious to you, perhaps

Please, in your vain attempt to over-sell your inadequate communication skills, don't be in such a rush to insult my intelligence... I ain't stoopid

In keeping with the title of this thread including a question mark, your 'suppositions' and 'assertions' are those of an uncertain fence-sitter; on a critical thinking forum this ain't a problem

What is a problem is your refusal to consider criticism and your subsequent inability to think


You're very obviously pro-Zion, or so pro-JewSeriously... your are SO wrong on this

If anything, I'm anti Israel... but, as all I only know is that I don't know much about the whole Zion/Palestine/etc thing, I try to avoid forming illogical opinions... being human, I fail... so I am (at least slightly and certainly 'illogically') anti Zion

Anyhoo...

You are WRONG in your ass-umptions

[Cavemonster]

Very likely comes from the fact that nearly all Jewish parents insist that they children get as high formal education as possible, while percentage of non-Jewish parents which are similarly determined is much lower.

Chinese culture puts similar emphasis on the value of formal education, and it shows among Chinese in US. The difference is that vast majority of Chinese children in China had (and still have) no access to higher education, no matter how much they parents may want them to.

And there's also a lot of strange reasons why Chinese (and many asians) do better at Math and science when they have the opportunity of higher education.

1. The metric system makes math more logical. While we have a base 10 system for numbers and money, a base 12 system for inches to feet, 3 feet to the yard and all kinds of crazy variations for volume. It all requires a superfluous level of processing.

2. Also their words for numbers are shorter. Studies have shown that the average ability to remember a string of numbers is limited by the time it takes to say them. And while we've got our freaky "7" and penchant for using three syllable to say "One hundred" Most Asian cultures squeeze all numbers down to one syllable.

3. Cultures rooted in rice farming are based on constant care and perfect attention to a small area. European farming a thousand years ago was more of a brute force sprint through the planting and harvesting seasons, and then almost hibernation. American and European children tend to give up sooner when faced with a hard problem when compared to Chinese or Japanese children. It isn't an issue of intelligence, but persistence.

[six7s]

Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 188 for "Communist China is technologically underdeveloped because they have no alphabet and therefore cannot use acronyms to communicate ideas at a faster rate" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Communist+China+is+technologically+underdevel oped+because+they+have+no+alphabet+and+therefore+c annot+use+acronyms+to+communicate+ideas+at+a+faste r+rate%22&btnG=Search)

It must be true!

[Father Dagon]

But I think there truly is a dispropotionate representation.
Jews make up around 1% of world population, yet-
20% of nobel prizes for physics have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine

The clear majority of major producers in Hollywood.

This isn't to say that all great scientists or producers are Jewish, or that all Jews are successful practitioners in these fields. But there is a very clear difference from a random distribution that is not confirmation bias.Whoops, typo there, the 20% rate should have said Chemistry
Source (http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html)But that's only one factor. Consider differences between the Soviet Union and the USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country). And even if you toy around and omit the "soft" prizes (economics, literature and peace), the Soviet Union is still a bleak figure.

Also if your ancestors had been hounded from town to town for generations, it's not rational to seek sustentation in areas that requires that you own land. And old attitudes and practices (call them prejudicies if you want) tends to be diehards. Enter the jewish family that have run a liquor store in six generations but wouldn't even consider to buy stocks in wine producers, hurr durr.

[Cavemonster]

Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 188 for "Communist China is technologically underdeveloped because they have no alphabet and therefore cannot use acronyms to communicate ideas at a faster rate" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Communist+China+is+technologically+underdevel oped+because+they+have+no+alphabet+and+therefore+c annot+use+acronyms+to+communicate+ideas+at+a+faste r+rate%22&btnG=Search)

It must be true!

Apparently all of these instances are reprintings of the same mass forwarded joke email.

[six7s]

Apparently all of these instances are reprintings of the same mass forwarded joke email.Sorta like the reprintings of the same mass forwarded joke theologies, philosophies and conspiracy theories, no?

[Father Dagon]

Regarding China: The other day I saw a chinese typewriter on the museum of technology here in Stockholm (the one with types in a tray (http://collateraldamage.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/what-language-do-chinese-cellphones-text-in).) It was clearly the most alien-yet-familiar object in the museum.

So given the hard intellectual conditioning it takes just to read, it's no wonder that the chinese learned russian before the russian learned chinese.

[Region Rat]

But I think there truly is a dispropotionate representation.
Jews make up around 1% of world population, yet-
20% of nobel prizes for physics have gone to Jews
42% for economics
26% for physics
28% for medicine

The clear majority of major producers in Hollywood.

This isn't to say that all great scientists or producers are Jewish, or that all Jews are successful practitioners in these fields. But there is a very clear difference from a random distribution that is not confirmation bias.

Not to mention 100% of the original Three Stooges.

[six7s]

Not to mention 100% of the original Three Stooges.And 0% of the Taliban

[Beerina]

One has to wonder why Yahweh or Jehovah or whoever would have settled on this rag-tag group of itinerant desert-dwellers as his "Chosen People"?

I mean, there were plenty of other candidates...The Chinese were advanced technologically at that time, and any of a number of other civilizations would have welcomed a nice, potent deity who told them to chuck the old guys out...

Well, Yahweh, mountain god of the Israelis, and born of the Canaanite pantheon, or something, or something, in any case, even from the top of the mountain, couldn't see the world was vastly larger than He was claiming, to them, to have made. Yahweh had no idea the world wasn't a few thousand miles across, much less round like a ball instead of round like a pancake.

And so, by picking some local yokels to lord over, He missed the Chinese, which He had no idea even existed, much less the New World.


It's too bad, too, because then most people would be arguing about Jephisaphatz or whoever was the river god in eastern Hungaria, who would have made it Big Time had it not been for Yahweh, who must surely see by now that He really lucked out big time.

Well, big time, thanks to other people slapping a whole new religion atop Judaism, and that's the one that really took off.


Next lesson: From Roman days to the pseudo-religion of modern politics.

[Father Dagon]

Well, Yahweh, mountain god of the Israelis, and born of the Canaanite pantheon, or something, or something, in any case, even from the top of the mountain, couldn't see the world was vastly larger than He was claiming, to them, to have made. Yahweh had no idea the world wasn't a few thousand miles across, much less round like a ball instead of round like a pancake.

And so, by picking some local yokels to lord over, He missed the Chinese, which He had no idea even existed, much less the New World.


It's too bad, too, because then most people would be arguing about Jephisaphatz or whoever was the river god in eastern Hungaria, who would have made it Big Time had it not been for Yahweh, who must surely see by now that He really lucked out big time.

Well, big time, thanks to other people slapping a whole new religion atop Judaism, and that's the one that really took off.


Next lesson: From Roman days to the pseudo-religion of modern politics.Well, He didn't really need the chinese, as they had a work ethic of their own. It was only until the protestant work ethic was invented that the work ethic had a global impact. And as we all know, protestantism is the crown of civilization.

[six7s]

Well, He didn't really need the chineseDidn't really need them? For what?

To hammer home some bizarre, circularly-illogical message of a people choosing a god that chooses a people that choose a god etc? Maybe...
To prove omniscience? Hah!

[SezMe]

But to start, is there anyone that takes issue with my first question/supposition?

i.e.: "is it true that Jews are the most dominant race/ethnic group in the elitist arena? " I think you know what I mean by elitist.. If not, maybe we need to flesh that definition out, more?
Yes, me. But an aside to begin with: Ignore six7s; his specialty is thread Derailment by Inanity. Starve the beast.

Your father has his own definition of the ellite but it is not universal. For example, in black USA culture, the elite might be sports heros or music superstars. If so, then Jews are a damn poor lot and blacks are god's chosen people.

So I think you should force your father to justify his ethnocentric definition of elite first. He'll fail.

[Darth Rotor]

I will venture forth for you, Mister OP crafter, the modest argumet that the Jews must be special people, but it is based on the following assumption.

God exists.
God chose the Jews as His People provided Abraham and all the men trimmed their schlongs.

They so trimmed, so He embraced them as His special people.

They then proceeded to piss Him off mightily, time and again, if the OT is any indication or evidence of a talent for pissing off the Almighty.

They pissed off the Romans enough to get royally pillaged and plundered, then variously dispersed.

The Jewish people survived, and are still around as a more or less coherent cultural / ethnic group two thousand years later.

If nothing else, a special sort of survival skil is passed down from one generation to the next.

So yes, the Jews are special.

Next week, we discuss the Basques.

DR

[Skeptical Greg]

...As I said, my father simply believes it's because "they are a chosen people".. I'm looking for the reality of the matter. You might point out that being " chosen " , obviously has it's downside .. We should all be so lucky ..

I never really understood the " promised land ", thing, either ...

[hgc]

I will venture forth for you, Mister OP crafter, the modest argumet that the Jews must be special people, but it is based on the following assumption.

God exists.
God chose the Jews as His People provided Abraham and all the men trimmed their schlongs.

They so trimmed, so He embraced them as His special people.

They then proceeded to piss Him off mightily, time and again, if the OT is any indication or evidence of a talent for pissing off the Almighty.

They pissed off the Romans enough to get royally pillaged and plundered, then variously dispersed.

The Jewish people survived, and are still around as a more or less coherent cultural / ethnic group two thousand years later.

If nothing else, a special sort of survival skil is passed down from one generation to the next.

So yes, the Jews are special.

Next week, we discuss the Basques.

DR


I am more and more convinced that the special "skill," such as it is, and mentioned already by others in the thread, is literacy. It's worth looking into how the Jewish diaspora happened to inbue study of Torah and Talmud as a basic requirement of Jewish manhood. Because of this Jews have tended to be near universally literate (among men) in the midst of cultures where literacy was restricted to aristocrats, bureaucrats, clergy and some merchants. This, according to Douglas Rushkoff, is the reason that Jews have tended less toward farming over the centuries -- if you can read & write, you always have better economic opportunities than tilling the soil.

Of course much of the world has recently changed in this regard. Literacy if very common among the masses.

[NewtonTrino]

It's interesting to ask the opposite question. Why are some cultural groups like the blacks for example doing worse than average.

[TriskettheKid]

I am more and more convinced that the special "skill," such as it is, and mentioned already by others in the thread, is literacy. It's worth looking into how the Jewish diaspora happened to inbue study of Torah and Talmud as a basic requirement of Jewish manhood. Because of this Jews have tended to be near universally literate (among men) in the midst of cultures where literacy was restricted to aristocrats, bureaucrats, clergy and some merchants. This, according to Douglas Rushkoff, is the reason that Jews have tended less toward farming over the centuries -- if you can read & write, you always have better economic opportunities than tilling the soil.

Of course much of the world has recently changed in this regard. Literacy if very common among the masses.

It's not just literacy.

It's knowledge.

The desire/drive for education runs pretty strong through the Jewish community. I can't speak to everyone's experiences, but one of the points really hammered home when I went to Hebrew school was the need to be well educated.