Are you a Commie rat?

Certain folks here have come to the brilliant conclusion that since Communist groups are involved in the recent protests, that all the marchers are Communist sympathizers.

The fact that in many decades, the Communist party in America has utterly failed to become statistically significant doesn't seem to make it past the eyeballs; they honestly believe that suddenly millions of Americans are Communists.

I say BS, of course. So let's find out.

[arcticpenguin]

I didn't find a selection to my liking. I am ambivalent about the war.

Certainly Saddam Hussein is a Bad Person, and the world would be better off without him. But why is Bush in such an all-fired hurry? Is he trying to get it done before his approval ratings tank? Is he trying to fit it into the election cycle? Is he getting personal revenge for his daddy? And what about the oil? Why Iraq instead of North Korea?

I am certainly not a communist.

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I didn't find a selection to my liking. I am ambivalent about the war.


Sorry. Obviously the poll is tainted by my own beliefs!

[Barkhorn1x]

Why are you trying to paint me as some sort of anti-Commie kook when all I have done in that other post is point out the affiliations of the organizations who organize these protests?

Let me ask you a couple of questions;

Did you march this weekend?

Where?

Who "sponsored" this march?

Who spoke?

Do you believe that Bush = Hitler?

Do you believe that Bush = SH?

The reason I ask these questions is to understand how you - an unaffiliated ant-war protestor - view these activities.

Barkhorn.

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
Why are you trying to paint me as some sort of anti-Commie kook when all I have done in that other post is point out the affiliations of the organizations who organize these protests?

Let me ask you a couple of questions;

Did you march this weekend?

Where?

Who "sponsored" this march?

Who spoke?

Do you believe that Bush = Hitler?

Do you believe that Bush = SH?

The reason I ask these questions is to understand how you - an unaffiliated ant-war protestor - view these activities.

Barkhorn.

I am not arguing with the rather obvious fact that the Communists are involved. I completely reject your notion that this in any way invalidates the marches, the feelings of the protestors, or anything else.

You feel it is reasonable to draw assumptions about the opinions of millions of Americans based on the involvement of a few people. I am pointing out that this is ridiculous, by showing that very few people actually care who the heck is a fellow traveler.

Your anxiety about the Communists is completely pointless unless you are attempting to draw conclusions about the whole movement from their involvement, which you clearly are.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


I am not arguing with the rather obvious fact that the Communists are involved. I completely reject your notion that this in any way invalidates the marches, the feelings of the protestors, or anything else.

You feel it is reasonable to draw assumptions about the opinions of millions of Americans based on the involvement of a few people. I am pointing out that this is ridiculous, by showing that very few people actually care who the heck is a fellow traveler.

Your anxiety about the Communists is completely pointless unless you are attempting to draw conclusions about the whole movement from their involvement, which you clearly are.

I, for one, would like to see you answer his questions rather than offer another Mr. Rogers-style lesson on "tolerance."

So, care to answer or should I move on?

Originally posted by Jocko


I, for one, would like to see you answer his questions rather than offer another Mr. Rogers-style lesson on "tolerance."

So, care to answer or should I move on?

Why? They have nothing whatsoever to do with the point.

But for an answer, no, I did not march last weekend.

No, I don't believe that Bush = either Hitler or Hussein.

With what pertinent information did that answer to a completely off-topic set of questions supply you?

Incidentally, in no way can my position be twisted into a "Mister Rogers lesson on tolerance" (thanks for the ad-hom). You can hate the Commies all you want, for all I care. This is a lesson in logic.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


Why? They have nothing whatsoever to do with the point.

But for an answer, no, I did not march last weekend.

No, I don't believe that Bush = either Hitler or Hussein.

With what pertinent information did that answer supply you?

It supplies me with the impression that you are unaware of, or unwilling to name, organizers of other marches you have presumably participated in (since you indicated that you hadn't "last weekend" specifically- please correct me if I'm wrong).

For a group of people chanting that the US should not presume to "act in their name," protesters sure don't seem to care whose name they themselves ARE acting in.

Originally posted by Jocko


It supplies me with the impression that you are unaware of, or unwilling to name, organizers of other marches you have presumably participated in (since you indicated that you hadn't "last weekend" specifically- please correct me if I'm wrong).

For a group of people chanting that the US should not presume to "act in their name," protesters sure don't seem to care whose name they themselves ARE acting in.

Read this slowly and carefully.

[Mr Rogers mode on]

I do not deny that the Communists are trying to make hay from this situation.

Got that ok? Now let's move on:

I am saying that it is irrelevant. Millions of Americans are not being mind-controlled by the evil Commies. We tend to think for ourselves, if you haven't noticed.

Now this is a critical bit. Read this several times:

No matter how involved the Communists are, the protestors are not "acting in their name". Such an assertion is moronic.

[/Mr Rogers mode]

All clear now?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


Read this slowly and carefully.

[Mr Rogers mode on]

I do not deny that the Communists are trying to make hay from this situation.

Got that ok? Now let's move on:

I am saying that it is irrelevant. Millions of Americans are not being mind-controlled by the evil Commies. We tend to think for ourselves, if you haven't noticed.

[/Mr Rogers mode]

All clear now?

Not in the least. A straight answer would go a long way towards clarifying the situation, however.

Who organized your last march?

Originally posted by Jocko


Not in the least. A straight answer would go a long way towards clarifying the situation, however.

Who organized your last march?

A campus antiwar group with no affiliation with the Communist Party. You could count the Communists in my city on one hand, probably.

Your bulldozer tactics are laughable. Even if they had been sponsored by Joseph Stalin himself, it would mean nothing. Americans are not sheep. We don't fall into line because some group says so.

All that is clear, is that you want to tar all antiwar protestors with the Commie brush. It won't fly. We're too smart around here for such Bubba-headed logic.

[Barkhorn1x]

Did you even read this article;

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6203

I don't know about you SD but if I were marching in a protest organized by Organization "A." - I would want to know what the hell Organization "A." was up to.

I don't know why you find this so hard to understand or why you find it illogical.

Barkhorn.

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x

I don't know why you find this so hard to understand or why you find it illogical.

Barkhorn.

I do, but you would find the explanation insulting.

Seriously. Do you REALLY think the MILLIONS of people opposed to the war are simply Communist dupes? Do you HONESTLY think the antiwar position is invalidated because a lot of political relics see a chance to promote their cause?

If so, you do a serious injustice to us all. Specifically, to the people in this board with antiwar sentiments. The reason for this poll is to show you that you are simply mistaken about the evil Commie influence. Keep watching the poll results: you'll see that no one cares about the evil Commies... nor should we. I'll worry about a zillion things before I worry about Commies again.

Me, I don't care if Bigfoot is marching beside me, I believe what I believe because I have thought about it and come to a conclusion. You seem to think only people supporting the war are capable of independent thought. I find that position indefensible.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


A campus antiwar group with no affiliation with the Communist Party. You could count the Communists in my city on one hand, probably.

Needlessly defensive, dog. I haven't mention the C-word once. I just asked you to answer the valid questions put to you, and half a page later, you obliged (sorta). A "campus antiwar group" is like telling someone "the kind with 4 wheels" when asked what kind of car he drives. But hey, if that's all the detail you feel like giving, I'm cool with that.

Your bulldozer tactics are laughable. Even if they had been sponsored by Joseph Stalin himself, it would mean nothing. Americans are not sheep. We don't fall into line because some group says so.

Bulldozer tactics? Asking you to not ignore pertinent questions qualify as bulldozer tactics? I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have never called this a communist conspiracy. Kindly read back to me the part where I called anyone a communist, overtly or by implication. Go, do it.

All that is clear, is that you want to tar all antiwar protestors with the Commie brush. It won't fly. We're too smart around here for such Bubba-headed logic.

I did nothing of the sort, but you seem to have accidentally spent the last half hour doing exactly that. Quit worrying about commie conspiracies, dog. I just hope you marched with people who believe in hygiene.

Bubba-headed logic, indeed. You're arguing with the wrong guy.

Originally posted by Jocko


Needlessly defensive, dog. I haven't mention the C-word once. I just asked you to answer the valid questions put to you, and half a page later, you obliged (sorta). A "campus antiwar group" is like telling someone "the kind with 4 wheels" when asked what kind of car he drives. But hey, if that's all the detail you feel like giving, I'm cool with that.

[B]

Bulldozer tactics? Asking you to not ignore pertinent questions qualify as bulldozer tactics? I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have never called this a communist conspiracy. Kindly read back to me the part where I called anyone a communist, overtly or by implication. Go, do it.

[B]

I did nothing of the sort, but you seem to have accidentally spent the last half hour doing exactly that. Quit worrying about commie conspiracies, dog. I just hope you marched with people who believe in hygiene.

Bubba-headed logic, indeed. You're arguing with the wrong guy.

I have patiently (OK, not so patiently) explained why they are NOT pertinent questions, and yet I answered them completely and honestly, don't pretend otherwise. You keep trying, Franko-like, to change the subject to something you feel more comfortable discussing.

You are being deceitful. What is it that you are hinting at, then, when you ask who sponsored the march? Aliens? Of course you are talking about the Communists. If not, then YOU answer THIS question: What is the point of your insistence on an answer, if it is not to support the idea that the Communists were behind all the protest marches?

If you are NOT discussing whether or not the Commies are involved, then you are indeed arguing with the wrong person, since in that case your post is completely off topic.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


I have patiently explained why they are NOT pertinent questions, and yet I answered them completely and honestly, don't pretend otherwise.

They are pertinent to me, which is why I asked you to answer them.
Your "complete and honest answers" are on par with Bill Clinton's finest efforts, but since that's all you feel like sharing, then God bless and have a nice life. That's what I said. You're being unnecessarily defensive here, dog.

You are being deceitful. What is it that you are hinting at, then, when you ask who sponsored the march? Aliens? Of course you are talking about the Communists. If not, then YOU answer THIS question: What is the point of your insistence on an answer, if it is not to support the idea that the Communists were behind all the protest marches?

I said nothing of the kind, and it is "deceitful" for you to put words in my mouth.

The questions were pertinent because I don't think you'd attend a peace rally sponsored by the KKK or NAMBLA, would you? All of a sudden, it would actually matter who was running the show, wouldn't it?

It is naive of you to proclaim that your presence cannot be construed as a form of endorsement of whoever sponsors the march. It's not an accusation of any kind, and there's no need to get snippy about it and calling me "deceitful." My words are up there, unedited. Show me where I am "deceitful," please.

If you are NOT discussing whether or not the Commies are involved, then you are indeed arguing with the wrong person, since in that case your post is completely off topic.

I disagree. Your premise (a very defensible premise, I might add, if you lay off the paranoia) is that people think commies are running the anti-war movement.

You claim they are not.

So who is?

"A campus antiwar group." A nice, vague, and totally unsatisfying answer. So you started a thread to prove some point that you don't exhbit the candor to actually PROVE.

Looks like you're off-topic on your own thread.

**edited to fix an HTML glitch, not to feed certain people's conspiracy-driven feelings of paranoia and persecution.

Originally posted by Jocko


They are pertinent to me, which is why I asked you to answer them.


Sorry, I don't have time to argue with intellectually dishonest people. Have a nice life yourself.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


Sorry, I don't have time to argue with intellectually dishonest people. Have a nice life yourself.

I just like to know which dogs I'm lying down with, so I won't be ashamed to mention them by name if someone should happen to ask me.

If you have a problem with intellectually dishonest people, then I have a hard time believing you'd willingly march with a group you don't even know. All I did was ask who, and you inferred all sorts of reasons to feel persecuted.

I can imagine you getting a driver's license....

Sundog : I'd like to renew my license.

DMV person : Sure. Is this your current address?

Sundog : Who wants to know?

DMV person : Er, I just want to confirm...

Sundog : Confirm WHAT? Who are you really working for?!

DMV person : Sir, there's no need to get so...

Sundog : You sure do ask a lot of questions! THEY sent you, didn't they? Get me a lawyer!

[subgenius]

Its hard to believe anyone feels threatened by Communists in this country.
The FBI doesn't even mention them in its threat assessment,
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm
and they only cite the damage done at the WTO meeting in Seattle as having anything to do with "leftists" in general.

They believe right-wing fanatics pose a much greater risk.
Let's have a reality check please.

I thought Joe McCarthy was dead. I guess he was only sleeping.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by subgenius
Its hard to believe anyone feels threatened by Communists in this country.
The FBI doesn't even mention them in its threat assessment,
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm
and they only cite the damage done at the WTO meeting in Seattle as having anything to do with "leftists" in general.

They believe right-wing fanatics pose a much greater risk.
Let's have a reality check please.

I thought Joe McCarthy was dead. I guess he was only sleeping.

I totally agree, which is the point I was trying to make to Sundog before he dove back into his bunker. I think it would be an equally valid question if some right-wing group sponsored such a march, as I believe I mentioned above with a KKK reference.

The impression around here is that commies prefer to lurk and plot quietly, whereas fascists tend to make a lot of noise to appear bigger than they are.

To be honest, I find the changes on McDonald's value menu of more interest, though. If I can't get my Big 'N Tasty for $1, then the terrorists have already won (props to the Onion).

[Barkhorn1x]

...nobody ever said that Commies were a serious threat to the US.

I did point out - and will continue to point out - that these protests are organized by Marxist organizations to a large degree. These organizations are stridently anti-American - not merely "anti-war" - hey, who isn't anti-war?

And, further, that those who are willfully ignorant of this fact are acting as "useful idiots" to further aims that they may not actually share. It matters not that the full achievement of these goals is problematic at best.

Please spare me the Joe McCarthy nonsense. They - the Marxists - have a right to spout what they will (except in most middle eastern nations, including Iraq) and I have a right to call them on it.

Finally, as Jocko pointed out, my gut tells me that the reaction to the nature of the organizers would be much different on the part of Sundog if they were the KKK or NAMBLA.

Barkhorn.

[subgenius]

If they pose no real threat then why concern yourself at all?
They're quite irrelevent.

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by subgenius
If they pose no real threat then why concern yourself at all?
They're quite irrelevent.

...they;

1. Give aid and comfort to a scumbag like SH
2. Continue to spread myths like it's "all about oil"
3. Promote reprehensive moral relativisms like Bush = Hitler or Bush = SH - these lies work on some people - sad :(

Regards,
Barkhorn.

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
...nobody ever said that Commies were a serious threat to the US.

Finally, as Jocko pointed out, my gut tells me that the reaction to the nature of the organizers would be much different on the part of Sundog if they were the KKK or NAMBLA.

Barkhorn.

The fact that you lump the terrible, rotten Commies in with NAMBLA and the KKK speaks not only volumes, but complete libraries. I don't know how to make clear to you how ridiculous such a position is, and - here's the kicker - how much apparently the McCarthy era ISN'T over, if persons like yourself see poor hapless Communists as next-of-kin to child molesters and murderers. (Spare me the Stalin statistics please, I know they're coming.)

This either shows an incredible insensitivity to the seriousness of the evil represented by hate crimes and child abuse, or it shows that indeed the Communists are a complete bogeyman to you, absolutely blinding you to any other data.

And no, I have no problem with marching side by side with the awful Commies in this particular case. I know that to you, that makes me as pink as Oscar Wilde's underwear, but I can't help that.

I rest my case, you have made it for me far better than I could.

Originally posted by Jocko


All I did was ask who, and you inferred all sorts of reasons to feel persecuted.


Nice little sketch there. The simple fact is that I don't know the name. I tried to find out and couldn't. I do remember that it was sponsored by a campus organization. Our town is too small to merit attention from the evil Commies.

I know that's not as fun as your conspiracy theories, but real life is often a lot less dramatic than your paranoia drives you to think.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x


...they;

1. Give aid and comfort to a scumbag like SH
2. Continue to spread myths like it's "all about oil"
3. Promote reprehensive moral relativisms like Bush = Hitler or Bush = SH - these lies work on some people - sad :(

Regards,
Barkhorn.
So what?
"Aid and comfort"? If they are funding terrorism they will be prosecuted.
As far as any other "aid and comfort" what are you talking about, and so what?
"Spread myths"? Its a free (or used to be) country. You have heard of the 1st Amendment.
"Promote moral relativisms"? Same response, and a big so what?
You didn't address the point that if they aren't a threat why care about them at all? You don't need a boogeyman to focus your energy do you. You have enough to stand for that you don't need something illusory to be against don't you?

[Barkhorn1x]

Dude - you gotta learn to relax!!

The "poor hapless Communists" bahawawwaaa - that's rich Comrad! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Barkhorn.

[Aoidoi]

Sundog: sorry, I missed it... what was your case? It seems to me that the 2 positions are
1) Marching with communists makes you a communist sympathizer
2) Agreeing with communists in a particular issue is fine.

I suppose "communist sympathizer" has a bad connotation, but I'm not quite seeing these positions as dramatically opposed. Perhaps I'm simply not reading enough into it. :)

And what's wrong with NAMBLA? Cartmen likes them! Come to think of it, he dressed up as a very suspect looking ghost in one episode as well... :D

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
Dude - you gotta learn to relax!!

The "poor hapless Communists" bahawawwaaa - that's rich Comrad! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Barkhorn.

I'll bet you've never even met an American Communist.

The ones I have known bore a great deal more resemblance to Woodie Guthrie than to Karl Marx. They tended to lurk in bookstores, not firing ranges.

OK, I'm relaxed.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


Nice little sketch there. The simple fact is that I don't know the name. I tried to find out and couldn't. I do remember that it was sponsored by a campus organization. Our town is too small to merit attention from the evil Commies.

I know that's not as fun as your conspiracy theories, but real life is often a lot less dramatic than your paranoia drives you to think.

Then why not just ADMIT it, instead of becoming a self-appointed star witness at some imaginary HUAC hearing?

I have no conspiracy theories, but the fact that you draw a line between marching with communists and marching with NAMBLA proves... not support, but PROVES... that sometimes it matters who's pulling the strings, which is the only reason I asked in the first place.

Thank YOU for proving MY point. I don't care who you march with, I only wondered if you bothered to find out for yourself. Apparently you didn't.

Which makes me wonder how you can be so certain that they WEREN'T communists- not that it's wrong to march with communists- but your whole premise is based on your assertion that they WEREN'T communists. And now you say you're not sure who the heck they were.

For all you know, you were marching at a cannibalism rally.

Originally posted by Jocko


Then why not just ADMIT it, instead of becoming a self-appointed star witness at some imaginary HUAC hearing?

I have no conspiracy theories, but the fact that you draw a line between marching with communists and marching with NAMBLA proves... not support, but PROVES... that sometimes it matters who's pulling the strings, which is the only reason I asked in the first place.

Thank YOU for proving MY point. I don't care who you march with, I only wondered if you bothered to find out for yourself. Apparently you didn't.

Which makes me wonder how you can be so certain that they WEREN'T communists- not that it's wrong to march with communists- but your whole premise is based on your assertion that they WEREN'T communists. And now you say you're not sure who the heck they were.

For all you know, you were marching at a cannibalism rally.

OK, last try, so don't bother replying.

Read slowly and carefully.

I know that the recent rally here was sponsored by a campus group. I don't remember the name. There was no association with any Communists. They aren't active here at all.

If it had been, I would support it just the same.

Your NAMBLA argument is preposterous. It is relevant ONLY if you equate the Communists with NAMBLA (oh, but you can't do that, because you're dishonestly claiming that this isn't about the Communists at all). Otherwise, it is wildly off topic.

"Sometimes it matters who's pulling the strings..." Why? Who is this evil group you are afraid will start organizing peace rallies? We know it's not the Communists, because you staunchly claim your argument isn't about them.

Everyone can see how your point has shifted into something that's not even REMOTELY on topic. NOW you claim your point is that one should make sure who organizes any protest rally because they might be.... WHO? Who is this mystery group that in your mind is as bad as murderers and child molesters?

It can't be the evil Commies, you have made that denial a central plank in your argument.

THAT is why you are intellectually dishonest. Your misrepresentation of your position has led you straight into a very entertaining reductio ad absurdum.

At least Barkhorn is upfront and doesn't use dishonest debating tactics. Peace and farewell.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog


OK, last try, so don't bother replying.

Couldn't resist, sorry.

Read slowly and carefully.

Like the way you type?

I know that the recent rally here was sponsored by a campus group. I don't remember the name. There was no association with any Communists. They aren't active here at all.

If it had been, I would support it just the same.

And how many times have I said marching with communists is perfectly okay with me? I just find it funny that you're essentially saying, "I don't know who they were, but I'm sure that they weren't communists." Pardon me for finding that humorous.

Your NAMBLA argument is preposterous. It is relevant ONLY if you equate the Communists with NAMBLA (oh, but you can't do that, because you're dishonestly claiming that this isn't about the Communists at all). Otherwise, it is wildly off topic.

I did not equate anything with anything. Again you're reading far too much into everything said here, both by me and others.

The point is, you're saying the sponsor doesn't matter. I said, what if it was sponsored by someone with an agenda like the KKK or NAMBLA, and then all of a sudden it matters. Your premise is prima face hypocritical. Calling you on a double standard doesn't mean I'm out hunting for nefarious commies, no matter how much you try to cast it in that light.

Your inferences are wrong.

"Sometimes it matters who's pulling the strings..." Why? Who is this evil group you are afraid will start organizing peace rallies? We know it's not the Communists, because you staunchly claim your argument isn't about them.

Who said anyone was evil? I only got you to finally admit they were unidentified. And it matters because the organizers choose the speakers, not because you're going to catch communism like a communicable disease or anything.

Now go on, try to make hay of my offhand comparison between communism and a disease. I know you're itching for another reason to feel persecuted for your beliefs (whatever the hell they may be).

Everyone can see how your point has shifted into something that's not even REMOTELY on topic. NOW you claim your point is that one should make sure who organizes any protest rally because they might be.... WHO? Who is this mystery group that in your mind is as bad as murderers and child molesters?

NAMBLA? Child molesters? Not according to them. Stop spreading an agenda of hate.

I don't know who the mystery group was, be they good, evil or otherwise. Neither do you.

That is the point.

It can't be the evil Commies, you have made that denial a central plank in your argument.

I did no such thing, nor did I call them evil. FOR THE THIRD TIME, I ASK YOU TO POINT TO AN EXAMPLE TO SUPPORT THIS BASELESS ACCUSATION.

THAT is why you are intellectually dishonest. Your misrepresentation of your position has led you straight into a very entertaining reductio ad absurdum.

Oddly, your condemnation of my thought processes really doesn't faze me too much.

Just remember, you don't know who I am. I might be marching right beside you tomorrow.

CANNIBALS FOR PEACE!

At least Barkhorn is upfront and doesn't use dishonest debating tactics. Peace and farewell.

It was your dishonest non-answers to his simple questions that brought me into this thread. The funniest thing of all is that the final answer, far from being shocking, was a rather anticlimactic "I don't know."

Again, if you can back up any of your assertions of this "dishonesty," I invite you to provide them. Or you could just retreat to your political bomb shelter and hide from your imaginary tormentors.

Sorry Jocko, you are just too stupid to deal with. Welcome to my ignore list. Keep Franko company there.

I live in england and therefore I am a communist. hey thats sombody elses logic not mine. :D

[Reginald]

See you at the next meeting of "The Croydon Popular Front". We shall rise up and incite the local newsagent to stock socialist worker. If he dosn't we shall take our business elsewhere. Which will Upset Comrade Dave "Stalin" Smith since his tobacco is 2p for half an oz more expensive at the co-op.

:)

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog
Sorry Jocko, you are just too stupid to deal with. Welcome to my ignore list. Keep Franko company there.

You know who's on your ignore list? Good for you!

That puts you one up on your politics.

[Frank Newgent]

Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?