Homeland Security Blimps?

[EGarrett]

Alex Jones claims in this debate (beginning and 2:43 on or so) that Homeland Security has put special blimps into the air to spy on Americans. Apparently one was spotted in Salt Lake City.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGGXbCCASgU

[LightinDarkness]

This is just further proof AJ & Co. will say anything to get attention. BLIMPS? Because, you know, blimps are small enough that if you fly one over a city everyone won't notice it. Because, you know, its not like the government doesn't have spy plane drones.

Of course, the problem is you won't find any spy plane drones over American cities because the government has better things to do. But since when have we ever let the facts get in the way of a good dose of fear mongering?

[Earthborn]

Here's another government spy blimp, cleverly disguised:
Wk2nrgQOhfg
Spy Blimps... That is like sooo 100 years ago!

[Lupie]

When I was in the Army I was stationed for two years ('91-'92) at Ft. Huachuca in southern Arizona. Not far from my billets was an Aerostat surveillance platform. It's basically a big white blimp on a long tether. I has a radar array that is used in the drug interdiction role on the Mexican border. It's not quite as big as the Goodyear blimp-it's about half the size. Usually they would reel out the cable so it would sit stationary at 10,000 feet.

It was set up at Ft. Huachuca around 1985-86, so obviously this is not some new system that Jones suddenly "discovered". So yes, our Government has indeed been using blimps for surveillance for about 23 years now, but they are used to "spy" on drug smugglers on our southern border, not on American citizens.

[Ohnoes]

The only problem is Jones think regular blimps are out to get us. In one of his expensive DVDs he is doing the usual by harassing police officers and such in NYC. There is a blimp flying over head that is being doubled up as a advertising blimp (can't remember what it was advertising) while also housing a couple of cops with cameras to watch this huge crowd below for anything that goes on out of the range of the foot patrols below so they could respond faster. I think they said because it was cheaper than running a couple of helicopters....makes sense to me.

Jones of course starts going nuts about how it's spying and going to be used for martial law while the cop he talked to who was probably the nicest guy in the world told him everything that the blimp was being used for..Which was completely opposite of what Jones made up on the spot.

Either way..Regular Blimp or Big White Surveillance blimp...Both can be seen from the ground, therefore I fail to see any secret motive from them.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Blimps are far more insidious than helicopters or unmanned drones. Fact.

[AJM8125]

He actually got it from the LA Times:

Pentagon plans blimp to spy from new heights
The giant dirigible would use radar to closely and constantly monitor activity on the ground from 65,000 feet.
By Julian E. Barnes
March 13, 2009
Reporting from Washington -- The Pentagon said Thursday that it intends to spend $400 million to develop a giant dirigible that will float 65,000 feet above the Earth for 10 years, providing unblinking and intricate radar surveillance of the vehicles, planes and even people below.

"It is absolutely revolutionary," Werner J.A. Dahm, chief scientist for the Air Force, said of the proposed unmanned airship -- describing it as a cross between a satellite and a spy plane.



Eye in the sky
The 450-foot-long craft would give the U.S. military a better understanding of an adversary's movements, habits and tactics, officials said. And the ability to constantly monitor small movements in a wide area -- the Afghanistan- Pakistan border, for example -- would dramatically improve military intelligence.

"It is constant surveillance, uninterrupted," Dahm said. "When you only have a short-time view -- whether it is a few hours or a few days -- that is not enough to put the picture together."

The project reflects a shift in Pentagon planning and spending priorities under Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, who has urged the military services to improve intelligence and surveillance operations while cutting high-tech weaponry costs.

If successful, the dirigible -- the brainchild of the Air Force and the Pentagon's research arm -- could pave the way for a fleet of spy airships, military officials said.

However, it marks the return to a form of flight that has stirred anxiety and doubt since the 1937 Hindenburg disaster. Thirty-six people were killed when that airship went up in flames in New Jersey.

The military has used less-sophisticated tethered blimps -- called aerostats -- to conduct surveillance around military bases in Iraq. But flying at 65,000 feet, the giant airship would be nearly impossible to see, beyond the range of any hand-held missile, and safe from most fighter planes.

And its range would be such that the spy craft could operate at the distant edges of any military theater, probably out of the range of surface-to-air missiles as well.

The Air Force's intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance abilities have improved dramatically in the last five years with the expansion of the Predator and other drones. Although such craft can linger over an area for a long time, they do not watch constantly.

The giant airship's military value would come from its radar system. Giant antenna would allow the military to see farther and with more detail than it can now.

"Being able to observe threats [and] understand what is happening is really the game-changing piece here," Dahm said.

The dirigible will be filled with helium and powered by an innovative system that uses solar panels to recharge hydrogen fuel cells. Military officials said those underlying technologies -- plus a very lightweight hull -- were critical to making the project work.

"The things we had to do here were not trivial; they were revolutionary," said Jan Walker, a spokeswoman for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Pentagon's research arm.

The Air Force has signed an agreement with DARPA to develop a demonstration dirigible by 2014. The prototype will be a third as long as the planned surveillance craft -- known as ISIS, for Integrated Sensor Is the Structure, because the radar system will be built into the structure of the ship.

While the military says the craft is closer to a blimp than a zeppelin -- which has a rigid external structure -- officials usually call the project an airship. Blimps get their shape from helium gas pressure.

The Pentagon has not yet awarded a contractor to build the prototype. Earlier work was done by Northrop Grumman in Redondo Beach -- as well as Baltimore and other locations -- and by Lockheed Martin in Palmdale, Calif.; Akron, Ohio; and Denver.

julian.barnes@latimes.com

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-spyblimp13-2009mar13,0,4608400.story

There isn't even a prototype, btw.

[Lupie]

Blimps are far more insidious than helicopters or unmanned drones. Fact.


Personally, I find hot air balloons and kites to be especially disconcerting. The stuff of nightmares. Oh the humanity.:D

[AJM8125]

Personally, I find hot air balloons and kites to be especially disconcerting. The stuff of nightmares. Oh the humanity.:D

The nefarious hang gliders are out today as well...

[Caustic Logic]

Hahaha and lol! That stupid Alex Jones! Spy blimp my arse, makes no sense, dirigible drivel!

Sorry, just had to my parody of the knee-jerk dance.

Still, whatever truth there is to it, AJ probably found away or ten, as usual, to make it an untrue claim.

[TjW]

The nefarious hang gliders are out today as well...

No, the hang gliders aren't that stealthy. It's obvious when you're transporting one. It's those paragliders that are sneaky. They move 'em around like a big bag of laundry in the back of the car.

[Dave Rogers]

Of course, all XKCD fans know that these blimps are nothing to do with Homeland Security. The real source is far more unlikely than even Alex Jones cares to admit.

http://xkcd.com/495/

Dave

[jsiv]

Either way..Regular Blimp or Big White Surveillance blimp...Both can be seen from the ground, therefore I fail to see any secret motive from them.
What if it has an HPU (holographic projection unit) on-board to make it look like a cloud, in a similar fashion to the cruise missiles on 9/11?

[Ohnoes]

What if it has an HPU (holographic projection unit) on-board to make it look like a cloud, in a similar fashion to the cruise missiles on 9/11?

Touche...I always forget they have that HPU. All I can say is just be cautious and look for that one cloud that remains still while all the others are moving.

It does bring a new meaning to looking for shapes in the clouds though...

Child: "Mommy...That cloud looks like a blimp."

Parent: "Don't be an idiot dear...Blimps don't look like clouds, now drink your fluo...Water."

:D

[Whiplash]

Touche...I always forget they have that HPU.


I believe they are standard issue for new NWO elite members.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yes, but are they sponsored NWO surveillance blimps?

Horatius is a little cash-strapped nowadays, you know.

[Mr.D]

and here I thought from the title that this was going to be a thread on the physical fitness of some of the TSA guards at the airport ...

[AJM8125]

Yes, but are they sponsored NWO surveillance blimps?

Horatius is a little cash-strapped nowadays, you know.

I'm quite sure Horatius is doing quite well, although I do take some offense that he's picking on my fair City. (http://www.airshipventures.com/?gclid=COjSr4WDgZoCFRxNagodvBmSKw) Perhaps if he could shunt off a little of the proceeds my way? Please?

Airship Ventures flies Eureka, a Zeppelin NT airship, around the SF Bay Area for daily sightseeing flights, advertising operations, corporate and event occasions and scientific missions :eek:. Based out of Moffett Field, the airship also flies out of North Oakland and Monterey!

[TjW]

Yes, but are they sponsored NWO surveillance blimps?

Horatius is a little cash-strapped nowadays, you know.

Sure. The principle is no different than motorcycle cops hiding behind billboards.

[Hamradioguy]

When I was in the Army I was stationed for two years ('91-'92) at Ft. Huachuca in southern Arizona. Not far from my billets was an Aerostat surveillance platform. It's basically a big white blimp on a long tether. I has a radar array that is used in the drug interdiction role on the Mexican border. It's not quite as big as the Goodyear blimp-it's about half the size. Usually they would reel out the cable so it would sit stationary at 10,000 feet.

It was set up at Ft. Huachuca around 1985-86, so obviously this is not some new system that Jones suddenly "discovered". So yes, our Government has indeed been using blimps for surveillance for about 23 years now, but they are used to "spy" on drug smugglers on our southern border, not on American citizens.

Yep, these things have been around for a while. I got to see one (known as "Fat Albert") when in the Florida Keys a couple years ago. We camped nearby and the gal I was with at the time insisted that when she got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom in the campground she saw a UFO hovering over the campground. I guess large blimps close by can do that to a woo-woo.

There's a lot of interesting stuff around on these Fat Albert airships. I'm surprised AJ hasn't talked about the ones in the Keys yet.

[Carnivore]

Modern airships are becoming more and more popular as security and surveillance platforms. Organizations like the Tokyo police, the French interior ministry and the Rotterdam police use airships routinely. The Athens Olympics had a security blimp monitoring events. The Caracas police use miniature drone zeppelins as camera and sensor platforms. Blackwater Aviation ( now Guardian Flight Systems) designed their own airship for sentry duty at military bases and for monitoring convoy routes against IED placement.

[Lupie]

Modern airships are becoming more and more popular as security and surveillance platforms. Organizations like the Tokyo police, the French interior ministry and the Rotterdam police use airships routinely. The Athens Olympics had a security blimp monitoring events. The Caracas police use miniature drone zeppelins as camera and sensor platforms. Blackwater Aviation ( now Guardian Flight Systems) designed their own airship for sentry duty at military bases and for monitoring convoy routes against IED placement.

It makes sense. Since you aren't depending on lift and a minimum airspeed, you couldn't stall the thing. You could go quite slow and loiter over an area. And I would think the an airship/blimp is far less expensive to operate in the long run when compared to a helicopter. I would also think that piloting a blimp would be far less work for the pilot. A chopper requires your undivided attention non stop as well as the use of both feet and both hands. It's noisy tiring work.

[JoeyDonuts]

It makes sense. Since you aren't depending on lift and a minimum airspeed, you couldn't stall the thing. You could go quite slow and loiter over an area. And I would think the an airship/blimp is far less expensive to operate in the long run when compared to a helicopter. I would also think that piloting a blimp would be far less work for the pilot. A chopper requires your undivided attention non stop as well as the use of both feet and both hands. It's noisy tiring work.

Makes one hell of a target though. I would imagine they're designed to be pretty resilient to small arms fire - at least they would be if they were designed by the military. If they held station at around 1000 feet, they'd be safely out of the range of the RPG-7 and other stuff. MANPADS would present a problem for it though. Even though it gives off a negligible heat signature, it'd be a pretty easy dumb-fire shot with most systems.

But yeah, as a semi-stationary platform for immediate battlefield surveillance in an urban environment or even in a drug interdiction role, you'd be hard pressed to find something better than a blimp.

[Hokulele]

and here I thought from the title that this was going to be a thread on the physical fitness of some of the TSA guards at the airport ...


Ah, so you've been through the inter-island terminal recently.

[JoeyDonuts]

Ah, so you've been through the inter-island terminal recently.

Whaddayou got against Samoan TSA employees?

They like poi. So what?

[dudalb]

Wow, will these blimps be high tech with sooper seekrit weapons like the ones in Red Alert 2?

[INRM]

Actually, Ray Kelley who is/was the NYPD Police Commissioner did actually want to use a whole bunch of unmanned blimps with cameras to perform domestic surveillance functions.

Link them all up, add facial recognition, ground-penetrating radar, algorithms to identify suspicious behavior and stuff and you could track everything that moves in a city. Granted current court rulings forbid ground penetrating radar and IR for surveillance purposes as it constitutes an unwarranted search and seizure. However, with the National Applications Office allowing military and intelligence satellite data to be used for law enforcement purposes, and the fact that a supreme court ruling said the military when conducting domestic ops in the US did not have to follow the 4th Amendment at the very least, that could easily change.

I don't know if the blimps he's talking about fit this profile, but the idea has been cooked up before.


INRM

[Travis]

They laughed when I insisted on "blimp attack drills!" Well, who's laughing now!?!


Actually, Ray Kelley who is/was the NYPD Police Commissioner did actually want to use a whole bunch of unmanned blimps with cameras to perform domestic surveillance functions.

Link them all up, add facial recognition, ground-penetrating radar, algorithms to identify suspicious behavior and stuff and you could track everything that moves in a city.

Since that's what we like police to be able to do this makes a lot of sense.

[INRM]

Travis,

You do realize that the police are supposed to have to operate within the Constitution which requires searches to be required with warrant upon probable cause, right?

This would obviously be in defiance of that as the ability to see through walls and such would definitely qualify as an unwarranted search and seizure (even if monitoring every single person in every city isn't over the top).


INRM

[Sparky]

When I was in the Army I was stationed for two years ('91-'92) at Ft. Huachuca in southern Arizona. Not far from my billets was an Aerostat surveillance platform. It's basically a big white blimp on a long tether. I has a radar array that is used in the drug interdiction role on the Mexican border. It's not quite as big as the Goodyear blimp-it's about half the size. Usually they would reel out the cable so it would sit stationary at 10,000 feet.

It was set up at Ft. Huachuca around 1985-86, so obviously this is not some new system that Jones suddenly "discovered". So yes, our Government has indeed been using blimps for surveillance for about 23 years now, but they are used to "spy" on drug smugglers on our southern border, not on American citizens.

I was just north of Yuma, AZ yesterday at the Army Yuma Proving Grounds and I saw one of those tethered blimps just north of my jobsite (General Motors Southwest Proving Grounds). I was told that it was a Border Patrol surveillance platform.

The Army Proving Grounds is a cool place. Lots of things going BOOM all day long.

[Travis]

Travis,

You do realize that the police are supposed to have to operate within the Constitution which requires searches to be required with warrant upon probable cause, right?

This would obviously be in defiance of that as the ability to see through walls and such would definitely qualify as an unwarranted search and seizure (even if monitoring every single person in every city isn't over the top).


INRM

Wait, so you are asserting these blimps are somehow monitoring us in our houses?

[HawksFan]

Yes, that is what INRM fears...some poor slob who has to sit all day watching everything you do. Of course, that means that only half the population can be under surveillance since the other half must be doing the surveilling.

I feel sorry for the poor guy who's stuck watching me all day.

[Gangularis]

The only problem is Jones think regular blimps are out to get us. In one of his expensive DVDs he is doing the usual by harassing police officers and such in NYC. There is a blimp flying over head that is being doubled up as a advertising blimp (can't remember what it was advertising) while also housing a couple of cops with cameras to watch this huge crowd below for anything that goes on out of the range of the foot patrols below so they could respond faster. I think they said because it was cheaper than running a couple of helicopters....makes sense to me.

Jones of course starts going nuts about how it's spying and going to be used for martial law while the cop he talked to who was probably the nicest guy in the world told him everything that the blimp was being used for..Which was completely opposite of what Jones made up on the spot.

Either way..Regular Blimp or Big White Surveillance blimp...Both can be seen from the ground, therefore I fail to see any secret motive from them.

Which movie was this? I think I've seen all of Alex's films, but I don't remember this.

[Gangularis]

Actually, Ray Kelley who is/was the NYPD Police Commissioner did actually want to use a whole bunch of unmanned blimps with cameras to perform domestic surveillance functions.

Link them all up, add facial recognition, ground-penetrating radar, algorithms to identify suspicious behavior and stuff and you could track everything that moves in a city. Granted current court rulings forbid ground penetrating radar and IR for surveillance purposes as it constitutes an unwarranted search and seizure. However, with the National Applications Office allowing military and intelligence satellite data to be used for law enforcement purposes, and the fact that a supreme court ruling said the military when conducting domestic ops in the US did not have to follow the 4th Amendment at the very least, that could easily change.

I don't know if the blimps he's talking about fit this profile, but the idea has been cooked up before.


INRM

This is what the tinfoil is for, duh. Cover your roof with it! They can't see you, now! :tinfoil

[JoeyDonuts]

:words: ground-penetrating radar :words:

Ahem. You may want to amend your paranoia. GPR wouldn't be effective at clandestinely surveiling a population, unless of course, you intend on carrying out your seditious activity below a couple feet of solid bedrock. :eye-poppi

Another textbook example of conspiracy theorists not understanding the science or utility of a piece of technology - and therefore assuming it's being deployed against them from the shadows.

[INRM]

Gangularis,

None of what I said is beyond the capabilities of modern science, and these ideas have been floated around before by the people I mentioned, and probably others.

Why are you making flippant remarks about it?


INRM

[INRM]

JoeyDonuts,

Ground Penetrating radar might not be practical truth be told, but infrared would be...

[Ohnoes]

Which movie was this? I think I've seen all of Alex's films, but I don't remember this.

No clue man...I just know it was in downtown New York at some political related gathering and he started accusing other protesters (who were protesting the same thing he was) of being government shills because they didn't look like regular protesters or something..

[MikeSun5]

When I was in the Army I was stationed for two years ('91-'92) at Ft. Huachuca in southern Arizona. Not far from my billets was an Aerostat surveillance platform. It's basically a big white blimp on a long tether. I has a radar array that is used in the drug interdiction role on the Mexican border. It's not quite as big as the Goodyear blimp-it's about half the size. Usually they would reel out the cable so it would sit stationary at 10,000 feet.

It was set up at Ft. Huachuca around 1985-86, so obviously this is not some new system that Jones suddenly "discovered". So yes, our Government has indeed been using blimps for surveillance for about 23 years now, but they are used to "spy" on drug smugglers on our southern border, not on American citizens.

Same thing was going on in Ft. Bliss, TX in 2004 (and I'm pretty sure today, also). Surveillance blimps are nothing new.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

JoeyDonuts,

Ground Penetrating radar might not be practical truth be told, but infrared would be...



To see through walls? Uhh... no.

[INRM]

Cl1mh4224rd,

Actually you can see through walls with certain IR systems. I am not certain about ground penetrating radar, as I said it might not be practical...


INRM

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Cl1mh4224rd,

Actually you can see through walls with certain IR systems.


Not passively. And sending any kind of signal into a house would be easily detectable, but would prove rather useless to the person doing the spying, as the return signal would be a jumble of every item within the building.

Now, if you could point out these "certain IR systems" you refer to, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Travis]

But if he points them out "They" will get him!

[JoeyDonuts]

To see through walls? Uhh... no.

It depends on what the background temperature is, what's in the room or space with the person, and most importantly - their proximity to windows. Glass will render most IR receivers completely ineffective. But it will go through walls depending on construction materials and such. I've played with infared sights as well as the NFTI (Naval Firefighting Thermal Imager) and you WILL get a reading on a human body through an interior wall IF the background temperature is cool enough to create the contrast effect.

I should make this point - you have to be RIGHT next to the wall for this to work, and anything sturdier than drywall porous type materials will render it moot.

But, let's go to INRM-land for a minute. Even if there were blimp-mounted IR systems sensitive enough to distinguish a human body in a house - what good is that for surveillance? It's one thing if the police are chasing a suspect and need to know where he's holed up in the woods, etc. It's another matter to surveil populations with this technology. What would be its significance? So they'd know where you were in your house. So what? How many other thousands of people would they have to do this to in order to accomplish the oppressive tyranny you're suggesting?

That's a problem I have with all these Big-Brother scenarios. There aren't enough analysts for this. Not even close.

And INRM - you need to abandon this ground penetrating radar tangent completely if you want to be considered a rational human being. As I already pointed out GPR is completely worthless for surveillance, unless you've been burying stuff in the backyard you don't want the gubmint to know about.

Let it go.

[Hokulele]

As I already pointed out GPR is completely worthless for surveillance, unless you've been burying stuff in the backyard you don't want the gubmint to know about.


What?

*Hides shovel behind back*

*Looks around innocently*

[JoeyDonuts]

What?

*Hides shovel behind back*

*Looks around innocently*

Your traditional style luau pit doesn't count.

[Hokulele]

Your traditional style luau pit doesn't count.


It's not the size of the imu, it's what's inside.


Mwahahahahaha.

[Travis]

But, let's go to INRM-land for a minute. Even if there were blimp-mounted IR systems sensitive enough to distinguish a human body in a house - what good is that for surveillance? It's one thing if the police are chasing a suspect and need to know where he's holed up in the woods, etc. It's another matter to surveil populations with this technology. What would be its significance? So they'd know where you were in your house. So what? How many other thousands of people would they have to do this to in order to accomplish the oppressive tyranny you're suggesting?

You don't understand. INRM is certain that if they are capable they will spend their every waking moment obsessed with him. Watching him. Studying him. He is the most important person ever so it is natural that they would do this.

[JoeyDonuts]

You don't understand. INRM is certain that if they are capable they will spend their every waking moment obsessed with him. Watching him. Studying him. He is the most important person ever so it is natural that they would do this.

In that case, infared technology should be the least of his worries.

As the KGB knew better than we ever did, the best surveillance in the world is a man in the thick of it.

INRM, for you that means every single person in your life is a plant of some sort and are logging your movements for some purpose that wouldn't make sense to you even if it were explained. Your garbage is sorted. Your mail is censored. Your stools are extracted from the county sewer main and dissected for nutrients. Your friends, family, postman, even the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to your house from time to time are all instruments of a system that is maintaining a comprehensive record of your every single action no matter how insignificant. They're all out to get you, and your only defense is the impenetrable NWO-stopper known as the Internet.

Since you've been getting the truth out there, you're obviously too risky to eliminate outright. Therefore you must be monitored 24-hours a day.

Of course, what do I know? I'm just some random poster on an internet forum.

OR AM I?

Checked the record of the IPs requesting port access to your computer?

Too late for that. Good thing you had your time sync set to time.nist.gov. It's like a red carpet for the NWO Cybersuppression Division.

[HawksFan]

So...when do we tell INRM that he's actually the star of a Truman Show-style television show?

[Audible Click]

The Army Proving Grounds is a cool place. Lots of things going BOOM all day long.

Such a guy thing.
:)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I should make this point - you have to be RIGHT next to the wall for this to work, and anything sturdier than drywall porous type materials will render it moot.


Am I right in assuming that your typical insulation, present in just about every habitable building, would also render any (most?) IR detection systems useless?

[JoeyDonuts]

Am I right in assuming that your typical insulation, present in just about every habitable building, would also render any (most?) IR detection systems useless?

Most would be, with the exception of extremely high end far-range IR systems.

There are other ways of surveilling targets within a space, but they're so convoluted and highly technical it would be impossible not to notice it happening what with all of the equipment it would take. Things like tracking the small bioelectric effect made by the heart - and even that tech is prototypical at best.

In any case, electronic surveillance is vastly inferior to corrupting a person close to your target - another area that KGB kicked our butts in.

[INRM]

Okay, I will concede on the Ground Pentrating Radar thing.

I would also like to know that I do not believe the government is personally watching everything I do with extreme fascination. I just have an objection with a government monitoring every aspect of the lives of every single person.


Joey Donuts,

Most would be, with the exception of extremely high end far-range IR systems.

Which is the kind the government most likely would use. I do remember hearing of a concept which allowed the government to use IR images to identify an individual. I don't remember the exact details but it was essentially like facial recognition in IR.

n any case, electronic surveillance is vastly inferior to corrupting a person close to your target - another area that KGB kicked our butts in.

What do you mean "corrupting a person close to your target"? Like using coersion and influence to manipulate a person who's in close proximity of your opponent into doing something against your opponent?


INRM

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Which is the kind the government most likely would use. I do remember hearing of a concept which allowed the government to use IR images to identify an individual. I don't remember the exact details but it was essentially like facial recognition in IR.


It seems to require line-of-sight. No seeing through walls with this system. All it would be, apparently, is a more accurate replacement for current facial recognition systems.

What do you mean "corrupting a person close to your target"? Like using coersion and influence to manipulate a person who's in close proximity of your opponent into doing something against your opponent?


Commonly called "informants".

[Travis]

Commonly called "informants".

AKA "spying."

[Toke]

Around here walls are two layers of brick with insulation between them. Roofs have 20-30 cm of insulation.

I doubt there are any system that can see through that.

[Travis]

Around here walls are two layers of brick with insulation between them. Roofs have 20-30 cm of insulation.

I doubt there are any system that can see through that.

That's why nano-spybots are so useful in Scandinavia.

[BenBurch]

To see through walls? Uhh... no.

For some purposes, YES. Easy to spot a marijuana-growing operation because of the heat generated. I believe, however, that federal judges in at least one district have ruled this requires a warrant.

[Klimax]

Around here walls are two layers of brick with insulation between them. Roofs have 20-30 cm of insulation.

I doubt there are any system that can see through that.

In my case not even electromagnetic emissions can be used (aka WiFi and such :D )
Roof is probably some sort of metal.(Nicely conducting...)

No spying for NWO. ;)

[I Ratant]

What really -is- being developed...
http://www.military-heat.com/91/p791-hybrid-airship-project/

[JoeyDonuts]

Which is the kind the government most likely would use. I do remember hearing of a concept which allowed the government to use IR images to identify an individual. I don't remember the exact details but it was essentially like facial recognition in IR.

I'm throwing the flag on this one. A person's body temperature and heat distribution can vary considerably from one moment to the next. About the only way you'd be able to get a true, almost zero point of reference for a given individual is to get them while they were asleep - and that would be useless trying to ID them by comparing the sleep reading to if they were awake, and moving. There are way too many factors that can throw off IR for it to be used as an identification system for a person.

What would be the advantage of using this over say...hell I don't know - your eyeballs? :eye-poppi

Come on man. This crap practically self-cleans.

[Toke]

The smallest spydrones I have heard of is not nano;) but dragonfly sized.
(tropical ones, the scandinavian ones are pretty small)

That get me wondering about jamming of signals.
Not just James Bonds anti surveilance wristwach, but if there is as much efford put into jamming as into military drones.

Will the Taliban get a suitcase and generator that stops predators within 50 kilometers?

[theprestige]

The smallest spydrones I have heard of is not nano;) but dragonfly sized.
(tropical ones, the scandinavian ones are pretty small)

That get me wondering about jamming of signals.
Not just James Bonds anti surveilance wristwach, but if there is as much efford put into jamming as into military drones.

Will the Taliban get a suitcase and generator that stops predators within 50 kilometers?
Since Predators and others of their generation (Reapers, Global Hawks, etc.) are semi-autonomous, they can't really be "stopped" by jamming their communications. At worst they'd just loiter in the target sector until communications were restored (most likely by shooting a properly-tuned anti-radiation missile at the source of the jamming signal) or until they ran low on fuel and returned to base (and probably exiting the jamming zone on the way).

[JoeyDonuts]

Since Predators and others of their generation (Reapers, Global Hawks, etc.) are semi-autonomous, they can't really be "stopped" by jamming their communications. At worst they'd just loiter in the target sector until communications were restored (most likely by shooting a properly-tuned anti-radiation missile at the source of the jamming signal) or until they ran low on fuel and returned to base (and probably exiting the jamming zone on the way).

I didn't know Predators and their like could carry the AGM-88. It's longer than the Hellfires it normally carries, perhaps enough to affect its airworthiness. On top of that, it would also need some kind of baseline fire control system for the HARM. If we're dealing with a true battlespace, in this instance I would think that a manned fighter such as an F-16 or F/A-18 which already have jamming countermeasures/detection and normally would carry an 88 would take the shot.

[/tactics]

[Travis]

HARM's are pretty expensive. I don't see them putting them on drones until the drones get much more sophisticated.

[JoeyDonuts]

HARM's are pretty expensive. I don't see them putting them on drones until the drones get much more sophisticated.

Which brings me back to the point about the FCS - The drone would have to know it was being jammed and be able to pinpoint its source using some kind of baseline ESM suite that was capable of determining azimuth for a HARM solution. If it was being jammed, then it would be autonomous. That would take the man "out of the loop" for launching a HARM. That would never happen, especially if it was in an urban interdiction role. It might frag a cell tower, or radio station, or weather radar by mistake.

[grmcdorman]

I suspect that theprestige didn't mean the drone would launch the missile; rather, the operator would determine it was being jammed and request a sortie.

[JoeyDonuts]

I suspect that theprestige didn't mean the drone would launch the missile; rather, the operator would determine it was being jammed and request a sortie.

That's probably correct. Made for some interesting ah...whatever that was.

[I Ratant]

From an e-mail...
BALAD AIR BASE, Iraq (AP) — The airplane is the size of a jet fighter, powered by a turboprop engine, able to fly at 300 mph and reach 50,000 feet. It is outfitted with infrared, laser and radar targeting, and with a ton and a half of guided bombs and missiles.
The Reaper is loaded, but there is no one on board. Its pilot, as it bombs targets in Iraq , will sit at a video console 7,000 miles away in Nevada .
The arrival of these outsized U.S. "hunter-killer" drones, in aviation history's first robot attack squadron, will be a watershed moment even in an Iraq that has seen too many innovative ways to hunt and kill.
That moment, one the Air Force will likely low-key, is expected "soon," says the regional U.S. air commander. How soon? "We're still working that," Lt. Gen. Gary North said in an interview.
The Reaper's first combat deployment is expected in Afghanistan , and senior Air Force officers estimate it will land in Iraq sometime between this fall and next spring. They look forward to it.
"With more Reapers, I could send manned airplanes home," North said.
The Associated Press has learned that the Air Force is building a 400,000-square-foot expansion of the concrete ramp area now used for Predator drones here at Balad, the biggest U.S. air base in Iraq , 50 miles north of Baghdad . That new staging area could be turned over to Reapers.
It is another sign that the Air Force is planning for an extended stay in Iraq , supporting Iraqi government forces in any continuing conflict, even if U.S. ground troops are drawn down in the coming years.
The estimated two dozen or more unmanned MQ-1 Predators now doing surveillance over Iraq , as the 46th Expeditionary Reconnaissance Squadron, have become mainstays of the U.S. war effort, offering round-the-clock airborne "eyes" watching over road convoys, tracking nighttime insurgent movements via infrared sensors, and occasionally unleashing one of their two Hellfire missiles on a target.
From about 36,000 flying hours in 2005, the Predators are expected to log 66,000 hours this year over Iraq and Afghanistan .
The MQ-9 Reaper, when compared with the 1995-vintage Predator, represents a major evolution of the unmanned aerial vehicle, or UAV.
At five tons gross weight, the Reaper is four times heavier than the Predator. Its size — 36 feet long, with a 66-foot wingspan — is comparable to the profile of the Air Force's workhorse A-10 attack plane. It can fly twice as fast and twice as high as the Predator. Most significantly, it carries many more weapons.
UNDER THE RADAR: Air Force ramps up in Iraq
While the Predator is armed with two Hellfire missiles, the Reaper can carry 14 of the air-to-ground weapons — or four Hellfires and two 500-pound bombs.
"It's not a recon squadron," Col. Joe Guasella, operations chief for the Central Command's air component, said of the Reapers. "It's an attack squadron, with a lot more kinetic ability."
"Kinetic" — Pentagon argot for destructive power — is what the Air Force had in mind when it christened its newest robot plane with a name associated with death.
"The name Reaper captures the lethal nature of this new weapon system," Gen. T. Michael Moseley, Air Force chief of staff, said in announcing the name last September.
General Atomics of San Diego has built at least nine of the MQ-9s thus far, at a cost of $69 million per set of four aircraft, with ground equipment.
The Air Force's 432nd Wing, a UAV unit formally established on May 1, is to eventually fly 60 Reapers and 160 Predators. The numbers to be assigned to Iraq and Afghanistan will be classified.
The Reaper is expected to be flown as the Predator is — by a two-member team of pilot and sensor operator who work at computer control stations and video screens that display what the UAV "sees." Teams at Balad, housed in a hangar beside the runways, perform the takeoffs and landings, and similar teams at Nevada 's Creech Air Force Base, linked to the aircraft via satellite, take over for the long hours of overflying the Iraqi landscape.
American ground troops, equipped with laptops that can download real-time video from UAVs overhead, "want more and more of it," said Maj. Chris Snodgrass, the Predator squadron commander here.
The Reaper's speed will help. "Our problem is speed," Snodgrass said of the 140-mph Predator. "If there are troops in contact, we may not get there fast enough. The Reaper will be faster and fly farther."
The new robot plane is expected to be able to stay aloft for 14 hours fully armed, watching an area and waiting for targets to emerge.
"It's going to bring us flexibility, range, speed and persistence," said regional commander North, "such that I will be able to work lots of areas for a long, long time."
The British also are impressed with the Reaper, and are buying three for deployment in Afghanistan later this year. The Royal Air Force version will stick to the "recon" mission, however — no weapons on board.

[Toke]

Interesting,

A jammer is pretty obvius to anybody with the right equipment (F18?), and can be hit with a missile made for the purpose, jammer/radar.

Next step would be to design a jammer that cost less than 1% of the missile and then saturate an area.

Predator free zone. Plus all the other ones around.

I bet somebody is working on it, and somebody else is working on changing frequencies fast on a predator.

I wonder if INRM got any mailorder surveylance detectors:)
Saw one on the street in Hong Kong, next to the radiotransmitting spycameras.
It could log on to any audio/video signals around on the standard frequencies for them.

[JoeyDonuts]

Interesting,

It could log on to any audio/video signals around on the standard frequencies for them.

Most jammers employ a brute-force type saturation of the target frequency. You can bet that the Predator's control frequency employs some kind of frequency-hopping or jitter - similar to LINK-16.

Of course, the actual specifics of its scrambling would be classified. Wouldn't make a heckuva lot of sense otherwise.

I do know that during the latest Iraq invasion, Saddam Hussein was employing GPS jammers in an attempt to confound weapons systems and units that rely on it for navigation/targeting - which anymore is a steadily increasing number. TLAM, JSOW, and a host of others use it.

But part of any good air suppression campaign is to probe the enemy to get him to light his toys up. We knew he had them, and the dumb S.O.B. lit up the sky with them at the first sign of our air units. Guess he didn't know too much about electronic warfare, since we made VERY short work of his air defenses. :D

[Toke]

I do know that electronic warfare is complicated.

Just seems to me that remote controlled drones/weapons major weakness over crewed is the com link.
And that exploiting it with jamming will get just as much attention as developing the drones.

[INRM]

Toke,

Well, then to deal with jamming they would have to give them the ability to operate autonomy with the full intelligence of a human, which would then result in the possibility that they could turn on their masters (us humans)


INRM

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well, then to deal with jamming they would have to give them the ability to operate autonomy with the full intelligence of a human, which would then result in the possibility that they could turn on their masters (us humans)


Geez. There's really only one solution to any problem in your world, isn't there? The horribly complicated and scary one.

Here's another way of dealing with comm jamming: the drone just turns itself the hell around and flies back in the direction in which it came until communication is reestablished. That certainly doesn't require human intelligence.

[Travis]

The Reaper looks like an armed Global Hawk more than an armed Predator.

[I Ratant]

The Reaper looks like an armed Global Hawk more than an armed Predator.
.
Global Hawk is a different beast. Monster jet motor on top, crammed with long range surveillance thingies. And that extreme V-tail.
Operates about 60,000 feet, the Hellfire missile hasn't got enough range to do anything but drop straight down, were it carried.

[INRM]

Cl1mh4224rd,

Geez. There's really only one solution to any problem in your world, isn't there? The horribly complicated and scary one.

No that is not the only one solution to any problem in my world. However considering that UCAV's are being developed with increasing autonomy, this is not entirely an invalid speculation.

Here's another way of dealing with comm jamming: the drone just turns itself the hell around and flies back in the direction in which it came until communication is reestablished. That certainly doesn't require human intelligence.

Unlikely to be the case. Unlike you, I have actually read some stuff about UCAV research and they do intend to develop them with increasing autonomy and the ability to make their own decisions if necessary independant of a human-being.

Current rules dictate a human be kept in the loop, but that could change...


INRM

[I Ratant]

Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel.
The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!
Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level?
They're already doing that!
There's a four day processing time though.

[uruk]

When I was in the Army I was stationed for two years ('91-'92) at Ft. Huachuca in southern Arizona. Not far from my billets was an Aerostat surveillance platform. It's basically a big white blimp on a long tether. I has a radar array that is used in the drug interdiction role on the Mexican border. It's not quite as big as the Goodyear blimp-it's about half the size. Usually they would reel out the cable so it would sit stationary at 10,000 feet.

It was set up at Ft. Huachuca around 1985-86, so obviously this is not some new system that Jones suddenly "discovered". So yes, our Government has indeed been using blimps for surveillance for about 23 years now, but they are used to "spy" on drug smugglers on our southern border, not on American citizens.

I personally know people who operate these systems. I got to see them up close.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2004/USArmyDeployLockheedMartinAerostatS.html

The are designed for ground surveilence, vehicles mainly, but with the proper equipment they can keep track of "other things".

They are also deployed in several countries .

[Cl1mh4224rd]

No that is not the only one solution to any problem in my world. However considering that UCAV's are being developed with increasing autonomy, this is not entirely an invalid speculation.


Not entirely, no. Just mostly. Autonomy does not require human-level intelligence.

[JoeyDonuts]

A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off.

[Klimax]

A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off.

Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned...

ETA:As I see JoeyDonuts response I realised that I forgot to say that my questoin was baout last few sentences!(Bolded!)

[JoeyDonuts]

Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned...

No, there was a man-in-loop the whole time on that one.

In that case, the Iranian airbus's approach was believed by the crew on watch in CIC to be similar to that of an Iranian fighter on an anti-ship engagement course. The Stark incident had only happened months earlier and tensions were high. The Airbus was fired upon because:

1. Its TCAS (radar) was not active, preventing an easy identification by the Vincennes' Electronic Warfare technicians. The radar systems onboard airliners are very easily identifiable - they almost universally have a pulse repetition frequency of 200 PPS with a bi-directional sweep. Even a green EW fresh out of Corry Station would pick that up in a heartbeat.

2. IFF mode C would have been another dead giveaway - had it been active.

3. Most importantly, the Airbus did not respond to numerous escalating queries and warnings over 121.5 mHz - which every single pilot in the WORLD should be monitoring the second they go wheels up. The reason that frequency is internationally guarded is to prevent situations like this.

4. Its flight profile was consistent with an AM-39 Exocet engagement.

The only indication that I can possibly fathom the Vincennes would have had would be the RCS return off the SPY-1D air search radar. It would have looked considerably larger than one would expect from an F-4 out of Bandar Abbas airfield. But this in and of itself is not enough to go on. In the absence of the other electronic means by which a civilian airliner is supposed to ID itself when questioned, a slightly higher RCS doesn't mean that there's not a threat. Indeed, it could have very well been interpreted as a possible P-3 Orion which can also carry the AM-39.

We had to study this incident in detail down in Pensacola. As a matter of fact, I believe there's a poster here who used to work with a guy who was on watch in CIC when the Vincennes accident happened.

In light of the political and military tensions in the Gulf, and compounded with the reality of the tactical situation - it was, in my opinion, the only option. I'd have fired on the contact too. I'm sure that does not assuage the CO of the Vincennes of what must be horrendous nightmares.

Such is the burden of command.

[Klimax]

Thanks Joey.

I added ETA to my original post to clarify for everybody else to what I have been replying.

[JoeyDonuts]

You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!?

I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton. :D

[Klimax]

You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!?

I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton. :D

Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone.
But rest was exactly what I was looking for and alluded to.

And I am still human.(mostly :D)

[JoeyDonuts]

No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS.

[Klimax]

No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS.

Sir,somebody is going to win award for worst misunderstanding of the year or award for worst writing of the year.(Or both)

"Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone."

Your thought that it was my thought ,but instead it was not as I know that at that time no drones with weapons or kamikatze-drones.

Is that clear? :D

[JoeyDonuts]

Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear. :D

[Aitch]

When I lived in Newcastle upon Type in the early to mid '70s, it was on a road close to the Town Moor. Every year, for a month or so, there was a tethered barrage balloon there on the Moor. It was used for training Territorial Army Paratroopers.

Just thought you might like to know. :cool:

[Klimax]

Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear. :D

Hey,you're crossovering!

(Looks like I should try locate somewhere on net Xmen and Star Trek comics crossover)

[INRM]

Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel.
The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!

How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it.

Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level?
They're already doing that!

That sounds a bit hard to believe...


INRM

[I Ratant]

How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it.
...
That sounds a bit hard to believe...
INRM
.
Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction!
All of it!

[HawksFan]

.
Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction!
All of it!


Erm...as far as INRM needs to know. ;)

[INRM]

I Ratant,

I didn't say I believed it. I actually said I found it hard to believe and that it seemed to be largely fiction...

I don't see where the confusion is...


INRM

[Nosi]

Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel.
The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!
Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level?
They're already doing that!
There's a four day processing time though.

Pity the poor slob peeking at my fat, hairy bum in my apartment singing Puff Goes the Magic Dragon as I flush...