If you HAD to go to church [Archive]

sackett

19th April 2009, 09:00 PM

This afternoon the gf and I went to a chamber music recital at a Unitarian church. During the interval, we read the Unitarianist mission statement posted on the wall in the lobby. It seems that they're dedicated to all the people in the world, and to the dolphins and redwoods too. Not much mention of religion, even deism, but a lot of good will expressed.

I thought, and my girl friend said aloud, "If I had to go to church, I'd come here."

Immediately afterward, we reflected that the Unis are the last Protestants on earth -- hell, the last people of any kind -- to compel anybody to go to church. They're what Garrison Keillor calls "non-toxic people."

That's a good thought to keep in mind. If some new darkness falls and religious attendance becomes mandatory (you can easily imagine such a thing; so can others), the Unitarians are the folks for unbelievers to seek out. No other sect would find it easier to understand atheism; no other woud offer such ready sanctuary; no other would keep your secret so well.

They'd probably start hosting Atheist Evenings, with cookies and temperance punch. They did after the music.

Dymanic

19th April 2009, 09:49 PM

It's been said that a Unitarian is a guy who comes knocking at your door for no particular reason.

The Nimble Pianist

19th April 2009, 11:51 PM

If religious observance were mandatory, I'd start my own religion.

19th April 2009, 11:55 PM

A church with a pipe organ.

Preferably one liberal enough to just let me sit in the back and read while listening to the organ.

But there HAS to be a pipe organ.

Aitch

20th April 2009, 02:05 AM

But there HAS to be a pipe organ.

And a decent organist! :cool:

Marquis de Carabas

20th April 2009, 03:01 AM

Pah. Screw that. Black Southern Baptist all the way. If I have to go to church, at least I'm going to have a good time, and those mother***ers can party.

Mr Clingford

20th April 2009, 03:06 AM

In reply to the OP, I think you are underestimating the Quakers; if you want an hour of quiet contemplation (with a few ideas) then they're your bag, baby.

Although, as I have a Redwood as my avatar, I am open to tree worship (and a bit of hugging).

Lothian

20th April 2009, 03:38 AM

Children of God

Monketey Ghost

20th April 2009, 04:15 AM

Pah. Screw that. Black Southern Baptist all the way. If I have to go to church, at least I'm going to have a good time, and those mother***ers can party.

The music can be nice. But the fainting and fan-waving and "Praise, praise!", people using every break in the sermon to make affirmative statements are annoying after... 2 seconds

Georg

20th April 2009, 04:24 AM

The church of the FSM.
Who else promises a stripper factory and a beer volcano for your afterlife?
Good enough for me....

shawmutt

20th April 2009, 04:25 AM

I am a UU. It has its plusses and minuses. I thought it was awesome when I first started, in practice it's a lot of work unless you happen to live near a big UU church. The following comments are in regards to my church. Since there really is no set of rules to follow, every church is a bit different depending on the makeup of the congregation and the minister. Take what I say with a grain of salt. I would recommend trying out your local church for a couple months, to see if it fits.

On the plus side, it's one of the few gathering places for atheists, agnostics, and humanists. I don't have to say some creed during every service. Some of the people have an honest desire to help make the world a better place. The minister can choose from myriad topics for her sermons--from religious or secular. The church members have a lot of say about what goes on at church, and there are a lot of lay led services that can be quite the treat. I'm trying to get a talk on skepticism ready for this summer.

For the negatives, there's a lot of woo woo, and the only difference between a Christian church and a Unitiarian church is that the former is restricted to Christian woo woo while the latter can use whatever woo woo they want. I'm on the board, and just recently really needed to fight to avoid giving an attending faith healer free reign to run classes and "healing sessions" in the name of our church.

Another negative is the lack of concerted efforts on the part of the congregation. i can't think of a better phrase than "herding cats". Everyone seems to have their own personal social/ecology/etc. issue they want to deal with, and coming together as a church to deal with issues never seems to happen.

Finally, there is no proselytizing, so churches tend to stay the same size or shrink.

In short, on paper it looks great, but it's a very difficult concept in practice.

Ethnikos

20th April 2009, 05:06 AM

Years ago now, my girlfriend's daughter decided she wanted to go to church but she did not like the ordinary churches. I told her I would take her to the Unitarian church and she could see if she liked that. After the service they had some coffee and danish informal chit-chat time and we were talking to the members and this one woman gives me a hard look and says. "we are pretty tolerant but we draw the line at a certain point." (Something like that.) I am guessing that they thought this eighteen year old was my girlfriend and were letting me know that they did not approve. I never went back to that church. I was not about to explain myself and thought my relationship was none of their d***ed business, anyway.

paiute

20th April 2009, 05:16 AM

AgeGap

20th April 2009, 05:22 AM

I was brought up as a Catholic so once upon a time attendance was mandatory for me.
I'd go where they had the fastest service.

Cainkane1

20th April 2009, 05:44 AM

I'd go to a catholic church. They let you drink in that faith.

Holler Hoojer

20th April 2009, 06:24 AM

When I was the Army, we had to go to church, so I chose the Catholic service. It was the latest, they served real wine at communion (which I now know I wasn't supposed to take, but then neither was the Jewish guy who went with me), and most of the service was in Latin which I could read a little in those days and gave me something to translate while the Priest said whatever he said.

Monketey Ghost

20th April 2009, 06:30 AM

I'd go to a catholic church. They let you drink in that faith.

Sacramental Wine, my friend, and tip the glass to Jesus. In your cups for our Holy Father!

Seriously, having been raised in Catholic schools and considered the priesthood, the last religion I'd choose would be Catholic.

Twiler

20th April 2009, 06:48 AM

I'd just declare a convenient building to be a Discordian church, and then go there.

Alternatively, I could declare a convenient building to NOT be a Discordian church, and enter it whenever I was feeling rebellious.

Basilio

20th April 2009, 07:41 AM

I had a gig as professional singer in an Episcopal church choir near Detroit for 2 years, somewhat high church. Loved the music (classic C of E) and the challenge of chant, and everything is written down for you. Just follow along in the book. A friend in DC refers to her membership in the "frozen chosen"

kmortis

20th April 2009, 08:35 AM

She was hitting on you. Drawing the line meant that she thought you were not going to share.

Two signs in a UU Church:
(Left arrow) THIS WAY TO HEAVEN
(Right arrow) THIS WAY TO A DISCUSSION ABOUT HEAVEN

and the room to the right is so packed that it disturbs the guy on the left....

And to a previous comment, it's been said that if you've been to one UU church, you've been to one UU church.

For the most part I like the UU here in town, although I've not been in almost a year. The ubiquitousness of woo is disturbing, but it doesn't appear much during regular service. Afterwords, on the other hand...

Bikewer

20th April 2009, 09:06 AM

A close friend of ours went from being an entertainer (singer and bellydancer....) to becoming a Unitarian minister. Before she went whole hog into the thing, we went to a couple of music-related events at the local church.
Much as Sackett noted, this joint had a sub-group for nearly anything you could imagine, including a UFO-oriented bunch.

I understand that since the Unitarians have cleaned up their act a bit, and now have some sort of dogma or other... What a bore.

Aitch

20th April 2009, 09:19 AM

I was brought up as a Catholic so once upon a time attendance was mandatory for me.
I'd go where they had the fastest service.

Me too.

We had a priest at the school I went to who could say a complete mass (including communion and a quick sermon) in just under half an hour. Quite impressive. :cool:

IMST

20th April 2009, 09:22 AM

I'd go to a Mormon church. They have the cutest closet cases.

Mr Clingford

20th April 2009, 09:25 AM

What you guys are saying about the UU is weakening my faith in scepticism. So there are people who are atheists yet believe on UFOs and other kinds of woo. How inconsistent.

Beerina

20th April 2009, 10:15 AM

Satanism. Ironically, I would choose this, too, if Yahweh actually existed. I'm with Lucifer in trashing this lame reality created by this supposedly good god.

Mister Agenda

20th April 2009, 10:32 AM

What you guys are saying about the UU is weakening my faith in scepticism. So there are people who are atheists yet believe on UFOs and other kinds of woo. How inconsistent.

Er, more like UU is a faith that welcomes atheists and also welcomes UFO buffs. Of course some atheists DO believe in some kind of woo, but on average I bet you'd find not much overlap between the atheists in a UU and the UFO enthusiasts.

I'm on the board at a UU, we don't have a UFO crowd, but we do have a pagan program group and a humanist program group (which I organize). We recently hosted a presentation by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth and we also host the local chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. UU does have core principles, one of them is to support each other on our individual paths.

Autolite

20th April 2009, 10:51 AM

Autolite

20th April 2009, 10:55 AM

What you guys are saying about the UU is weakening my faith in scepticism. So there are people who are atheists yet believe on UFOs and other kinds of woo. How inconsistent.

No worse than science teachers who believe in a god... :rolleyes:

Mr Clingford

20th April 2009, 11:17 AM

No worse than science teachers who believe in a god... :rolleyes:I think you're serious, but there need be no conflict between religion and science, far from it. The beliefs need have no detrimental effect whatsoever, at least in the UK.

The Atheist

20th April 2009, 01:05 PM

What you guys are saying about the UU is weakening my faith in scepticism. So there are people who are atheists yet believe on UFOs and other kinds of woo. How inconsistent.

I think if you've read the bible, UFO believers have to be atheists. I had a pages-long discussion on the subject at The Ship a wee while back.

David Icke's an atheist. You're just confusing atheism with rationalism.

Mister Agenda

20th April 2009, 01:14 PM

supercorgi

20th April 2009, 01:18 PM

I think I'd go Wiccan. All that sky-clad business and dancing around trees is strangely compelling.

supercorgi

20th April 2009, 01:21 PM

If I had to go to church then I would go to one of those churches that encourage needy folks to take money out of the tithing plates...

(Oh yes, and babes too! The church must have lots and lots of babes! Preferably ones where all the women are Annette Funicello look-a-likes...)

I initially misread this and pictured commune plates loaded up with babies for the taking. A different approach to the adoption issue! :D

TraneWreck

20th April 2009, 01:22 PM

Easy choice. A black church on the south side of Chicago. I'd play in the band, and during the breaks I'd get to hear super-crazy sermons.

"BILL WAS DRRIIIIIIVIN' DIRTYeh!!!"

Stuff like that.

Third Eye Open

20th April 2009, 01:46 PM

Satanism. Ironically, I would choose this, too, if Yahweh actually existed. I'm with Lucifer in trashing this lame reality created by this supposedly good god.

Agreed, Satan is one of my favorite mythical beings.

Hooray for standing up to a tyrant!

Steel Rat

20th April 2009, 01:48 PM

I'd probably just take whatever punishment there was for not going, or start a revolution. There's no such thing as "have to" with respect to this bogus premise.

One Skunk Todd

20th April 2009, 01:51 PM

If some new darkness falls and religious attendance becomes mandatory

I will probably have fought to the death against it. :)

six7s

20th April 2009, 01:54 PM

I'd go to a catholic church. They let you drink in that faith.
Letting you drink is one thing

Making you swallow is an altogether different kettle of piranhas

Mr Clingford

20th April 2009, 01:58 PM

Letting you drink is one thing

Making you swallow is an altogether different kettle of piranhas
I'm not sure whether you're saying that one is not allowed to enjoy the drink fully or whether your comment is a bit blue! Will the word 'swallow' ever be free of sexual connotation?:)

six7s

20th April 2009, 02:01 PM

Bless me, Mr Clingford, for I have been blue.
It has been bloody ages since my last confession.
So sue me!

;)

The Atheist

20th April 2009, 03:07 PM

I've met plenty of Christians who believe that UFOs are piloted by aliens from another planet or people from the future. They might be heretics, but they aren't atheists. When a person likely to believe in UFOs reads the Bible, he sees them in Ezekiel.

Yeah, but they're not True ChristiansTM.

I think I'd go Wiccan. All that sky-clad business and dancing around trees is strangely compelling.

Yep, I'd go Wicca or Rastafarianism*.

Going by the Rastas and Wiccans I know, I don't think there's much in it - Wiccans get drunk and have sex, Rastas get high and have sex.

*or Anglicanism, which can be anything you want, and therefore either of the above as well, although the numbers of drunk and stoned young women isn't that high.

Tiktaalik

20th April 2009, 04:29 PM

I was raised Unitarian/atheist. I'm still nominally a member of the UUs as I pay dues to Church of the Larger Fellowship (mail/web based). But I don't generally participate, mostly because 1) the fellowships I've run into lately aren't very community oriented & I don't feel very welcome; and 2) they're still too woo for me.

I've also been to Quaker meetings. If I had to go, I'd go UU/Quaker. UUs are open/welcoming to gays & gay marriage; the Unitarians and Universalists first got together to become a stronger voice for civil rights in 1963 & James Reeb, a UU minister, was beaten to death after a voting rights march in Selma Alabama in 1965 and eulogized by MLK (he was my family's minister); currently the leader of the UUs is African American (Wm. Sinkford); so they have an interesting history.

gentlehorse

20th April 2009, 06:15 PM

The UU's in this town are a decent enough bunch, though the upstairs service is fraught with woo. All manner of woo... Name it-- But in the basement, where the coffee flows freely, and those possessed of dark labyrinthine minds lurk amidst faded newspapers and dead spiders, out of sight and out of mind (heh, heh), resides... The Forum: a pre-service discussion group. It's just dandy. I can't say I actually go to church as I haven't attended the service in years, but the UU's I've met in The Forum make me feel welcome and don't mind that I leave when the service starts (probably because I chip in for the coffee).

shawmutt

20th April 2009, 06:23 PM

What you guys are saying about the UU is weakening my faith in scepticism. So there are people who are atheists yet believe on UFOs and other kinds of woo. How inconsistent.

David Icke's an atheist. You're just confusing atheism with rationalism.

I think Mr C's confusing atheism with skepticism. People believe in all kinds of woo woo regardless of their belief in a God or Gods. We have religious people in our church that are active skeptics, and atheists that are trying to proselytize the wonders of homeopathy.

INRM

22nd April 2009, 12:19 PM

I'd say UU sounds good if I had to go to church.

Kernel Hapablap

22nd April 2009, 12:25 PM

I'd go to the strictest orthodox church I could find, just out of scientific curiosity. It'd be fun to sew the seeds of doubt among the brainwashed...

Jeff Corey

22nd April 2009, 12:47 PM

I'd go to the strictest orthodox church I could find, just out of scientific curiosity. It'd be fun to sew the seeds of doubt among the brainwashed...

They might conclude that you were trying to needle them.

ziztur

22nd April 2009, 02:10 PM

My boyfriend and I who are both atheists and skeptics (of the anti-conspiracy anti-woo variety) decided one Sunday to go to the church down the street just for fun.

We decided that we enjoyed going to different churches and then talking/blogging about the differences that we started doing it every week. I think we've been to 22 so far.

It keeps us connected with what lots of people out there in the world believe. Our favorites were Divine Science and UU, followed by Quaker.

Kernel Hapablap

22nd April 2009, 02:12 PM

That sounds like some crazy entertainment. Do you have to contain your snickers?

ziztur

27th April 2009, 10:03 AM

YES, YES WE DO. The best I think was a revival we went to.

My partner has been to several revival services (he was raised Southern Fundamentalist Baptist) but I had never been to one. I honestly had no idea what a "revival" was. I still really don't get it. Instead of having the typical pastor, they had a guest pastor. After baptizing a five year old (can a five year old really understand what it means to be Christian? I felt kind of bad for her - her parents were so proud, and she obviously wanted to please them), a guest pastor came out.

His name is Jim McNiel... He was a whirlwind. He was like a combination of televangelist and street preacher - he even screamed out, "JEEEEEEEEsus!!!" He retold the story of the crucifixion complete with different voices for the different characters - graveling booming voice for Pontius Pilate, magnificent and righteous voice for Jesus. He moved all over the stage, acting out the story as if he were possessed by... umm... I guess the Holy Spirit.

When he got to the part in the story where Jesus was crucified and making death rattles, the preacher held his arms out to the side dramatically, his microphone dangling. and then he screamed,

"AND JESUS SAID!... GLURGLE GLURG Glurg sphttthhhh blarghhh....."

More true words were never spoken.

I could not take it. I began giggling. I tried to hide it. Did that guy REALLY just do that? He did it again...

"JESUS SAID.... slhittttglublee gluuuuurch plitooooo blargh...."

Tears were streaming down my face, I was trying so hard not to laugh out loud. My Guy looked over at me and covered his mouth. We were both shaking in our attempts to not laugh. I looked at the exit sign and thought, "exit exit exit exit exit" to try to stifle my laughter.

"and then he died."

I wonder if the people behind us believed they had discovered two of Satan's minions in their midst.

On the guest cards you fill out and give to the church on your way out we wrote, "Thanks for reaffirming our belief that there is NO god, and that faith is dangerous to the intellect"