Why does god need missionaries?

[RandFan]

This is from the current Atheist Experience Podcast (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/).

We don't need missionaries to convince people that the sky is blue. Why does god need emissaries? Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity? Does god really need a PR department, publicists, salespeople, etc..

[RandFan]

Thanks to the mods for moving the thread to R&P.

[arthwollipot]

I think there's a verse in Matthew which exhorts followers to go forth and make disciples of all people. It's a divine command.

[NewtonTrino]

Not has he purported to ask for them, but why does he need them? It seems pointless when he could make his message clear and obvious any number of ways that would be more efficient. Radio broadcasts, sky writing, loud talking all over the world in every language, dropping of leaflets, twinkling of the stars to a beat etc. etc.

[Policenaut]

Doesn't hearing gods voice make your head explode? That could be the reason. He's quite eccentric.

[RandFan]

On top of everything else it is very inefficient. From a statistical view point religion is a function of one or more of 3 primary variables, geography, familial ties, peer group. Missionary work has, at best, marginal statistical significance.

[six7s]

Missionary work has, at best, marginal statistical significance.However, it has served as a simple and effective means of keeping the savages occupied and quiet whilst we've nipped around the back and photoshopped our deity's head onto their gods' bodies

[RandFan]

However, it has served as a simple and effective means of keeping the savages occupied and quiet whilst we've nipped around the back and photoshopped our deity's head onto their gods' bodiesIt's a great revenue source. Can you imagine a sales force that works for free?

[fromdownunder]

It allows ignorant people to be shown the right way to do things. They explain the Missionary Position.

Norm

[empeake]

On top of everything else it is very inefficient. From a statistical view point religion is a function of one or more of 3 primary variables, geography, familial ties, peer group. Missionary work has, at best, marginal statistical significance.

Unless supported by a conquering army (see Catholic Latin America).

[RandFan]

Unless supported by a conquering army (see Catholic Latin America).Arguable. While it's true that Catholicism is one of the most successful of religions it's hardly the faith of a majority of world citizens. Christianity might be the largest theological group but only as a composite and even Christianity as a whole only represents 33% (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html) of the world's religions. In truth Christianity is quite fragmented.

If Catholicism is true then it represents a statistical minority.

I understand your point but in the end even Catholicism has been very, very ineffective, assuming it's the truth as most people are not Catholic and many if not most have never even heard of Catholicism. Even the power of evading armies and superior technology (see Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel)) couldn't get god's precious plan of salvation to anything more than a minority of god's children.

[arthwollipot]

Why does god need missionaries?Because he chose such a backward time and such a strange land.

[Safe-Keeper]

Missionary work has, at best, marginal statistical significance. I got a copy of the NT from a friend of mine, and it had some rather shocking numbers about the number of people and the amount of money that at any moment is dedicated to spreading the Word.

Just think of how many hospitals they could have built.

[empeake]

I understand your point...

Not really. I'm afraid my sarcastic intent wasn't clear.

In Mexico, prior to 1517 (when the Spaniards arrived), the number of Catholics was 0. As a result of the efforts of the missioners (and a few beatings, threats and destruction of local temples), more than 90% of the population was convinced of the merits of the new religion. A "convert or die" strategy does improve the success rate of missionary work.

[KingMerv00]

Why does god need missionaries?

For the same reason he needs a starship.

[SezMe]

Not has he purported to ask for them, but why does he need them? It seems pointless when he could make his message clear and obvious any number of ways that would be more efficient. Radio broadcasts, sky writing, loud talking all over the world in every language, dropping of leaflets, twinkling of the stars to a beat etc. etc.
Too obvious. It would eliminate the role of faith and without faith, where's your religion?

[HansMustermann]

SezMe, that's actually circular IMHO. Basically, God needs this kind of religion because, uh, otherwise it wouldn't be this kind of religion. Yeah, but why?

If you look in the Bible, the guy doesn't say "I want you guys to take guesses about me and be unsure", he just demands obedience and in some places a good dose of brown-nosing. He's the king of kings, top level management, or whatever you want to call it, and he wants you to do what he wants.

Well, then why doesn't he come forth and say what he wants?

I mean, your CEO doesn't want you to have faith in faith in management, and he doesn't want you to have to guess which is the One True Corporate Policy to follow. If he wants less gizmos made and more widgets, he just says so.

And while for a large corporation it has to go through the hierarchical levels, just because the CEO doesn't have the time or energy to deal with everyone in person, we're talking an omnipotent and omnipresent deity here. Even in real life companies, when it's possible and desirable to just talk to everyone, it _is_ done that way.

E.g., for small companies where it's possible to just pack everyone in the same room and tell them stuff like "ok, we're switching to making widgets", managers do just that.

E.g., even for medium companies or departments of the large ones, there are occasions like a new boss or the christmas party where the boss comes forth and talks to the assembled peons. Even if just to say something boiling down to "btw, I'm your boss, you have to do what _I_ say. And I say that this year we're making widgets because the market is great for widgets."

Basically because that kind of removing doubt and guesswork is really that much better, if you want them to do what you what you want. Faith in faith and guesswork are the last thing you'd want there.

And again, IRL it may not be done full time, because nobody has the time to deal personally with every employee. (Without making a hash of it.) We choose the hierarchy pyramid instead as the lesser evil, actually. It's inefficient, but less inefficient than a mortal human with limited time and knowledge trying to micro-manage too many other humans personally.

But we're talking an omnipotent and omnipresent deity. As in, power equals infinity. By definition he _can_ tell any number of people "hi, I'm the real god btw, and you can find my revised list of commandments under this handy URL" without any effort whatsoever. Because, you know, otherwise you could say "yeah, but a god can be imagined who can talk to more people, and/or do it with less effort" and if you can put something above it then it's not infinity.

So why doesn't he do so? Why does he choose the hideously imperfect way instead?

Why does a god (any god) need faith and a religion anyway? It seems to me like he'd more likely want to get something done. It might be to get you to do something, or just behave like he wants you to, or just that you know the rules so he can punish in good conscience those who knowingly break them, or whatever. But faith that maybe some deity exists out there... and most people guessed wrong anyway... what's in it for him anyway?

[Tapio]

In Mexico, prior to 1517 (when the Spaniards arrived), the number of Catholics was 0. As a result of the efforts of the missioners (and a few beatings, threats and destruction of local temples), more than 90% of the population was convinced of the merits of the new religion. A "convert or die" strategy does improve the success rate of missionary work.

Same in Finland. But someone choosing to stay alive by saying he believes in something and/or doing things according to a belief-system doesn't mean that person actually believes in it.

When christianity was first spread to Finland most of the folk would "convert under the sword", but as soon as possible they'd run to the woods, where they would bathe in a sacred (according to their pagan beliefs) pond or spring to "reverse" the conversion. After that they would keep on living by the new regulations, seemingly christian, just to stay alive, while secretly keeping up their pagan rituals. Only after the clergy ordered for the complete eradication of the peoples sacred places (including some of the most rare phenomenon in Finnish forests) would age old beliefs and practice give actual way to christianity (though it is arguable, that most people who call themeselves christian today, don't really differ in how they feel about their beliefs, or how they put them to practice, than those who lived here 1000 years ago).

When I was a kid my family lived in Taiwan, where my parents worked as missionaries (they're also children of missionaries). Witnessing the madness first hand at a vulnerable age has left me scarred for life in various psychological aspects. Some of the stuff done in the name of spreading faith is good, can't argue about that. But the ideology and most of the concrete work I despise from the bottom of my heart.

Sorry about the outburst...

[Ysidro]

The obvious religious answer is "because that's what God wants. Why do you hate God?"

[CriticalSock]

Why does god need missionaries? Only a god who was NOT omniscient, NOT omnipresent and was the product of human creation at a time when the fastest form of communication was a man on a camel would need missionaries.

[Foster Zygote]

However, it has served as a simple and effective means of keeping the savages occupied and quiet whilst we've nipped around the back and photoshopped our deity's head onto their gods' bodies

Yeah, but it helps if you send the soldiers in first.

[MG1962]

On top of everything else it is very inefficient. From a statistical view point religion is a function of one or more of 3 primary variables, geography, familial ties, peer group. Missionary work has, at best, marginal statistical significance.

I would suggest that missionary work was a lot more effective in an era with far less mass communication than today.

Most missionary work I hear of today involves forms of aid, rather than trying to convert the locals to any specific way of thinking. I know there are exceptions, but this is true in the majority of cases

[Bikewer]

I've thought along the same lines...If salvation is conditional upon hearing (and believing) "The Good News", then missionary work is damnably inefficient.
How many millions of people must have lived out their lives and died with nary a hint of a Gospel?

Wouldn't God have used a large public-address format?

"ATTENTION, EVERYONE! My only-begotten Son has just painfully croaked for your salvation.
Shortly, we'll be giving you all a handout with the new rules and regulations you'll need to follow.
Have a nice day."

[Tapio]

Since no resident christian has bothered to answer, to make the discussion a bit more interesting I'll volunteer in attempting to act as one (I was a devout christian for years, and as a missionary-kid can probably do a decent job).

SO. Here goes.

You guys are forgetting that coming to God through Christ must be done as an act of free will. If God himself was too invasive, the possibly won souls wouldn't count.

[I Ratant]

Not really. I'm afraid my sarcastic intent wasn't clear.

In Mexico, prior to 1517 (when the Spaniards arrived), the number of Catholics was 0. As a result of the efforts of the missioners (and a few beatings, threats and destruction of local temples), more than 90% of the population was convinced of the merits of the new religion. A "convert or die" strategy does improve the success rate of missionary work.
.
Worked in the American Southwest also.
Convert, and only lose a foot so you can't run away, or ..... die... your choice.

[I Ratant]

I've thought along the same lines...If salvation is conditional upon hearing (and believing) "The Good News", then missionary work is damnably inefficient.
How many millions of people must have lived out their lives and died with nary a hint of a Gospel?

Wouldn't God have used a large public-address format?

"ATTENTION, EVERYONE! My only-begotten Son has just painfully croaked for your salvation.
Shortly, we'll be giving you all a handout with the new rules and regulations you'll need to follow.
Have a nice day."
.
That would be so much more efficient than the current method of expecting all those noises in all those heads to have that same message.
So much is lost between the blunt force trauma to the head and the resultant epiphanies!

[RandFan]

Not really. I'm afraid my sarcastic intent wasn't clear.No, I really did understand.

In Mexico, prior to 1517 (when the Spaniards arrived), the number of Catholics was 0. As a result of the efforts of the missioners (and a few beatings, threats and destruction of local temples), more than 90% of the population was convinced of the merits of the new religion. A "convert or die" strategy does improve the success rate of missionary work.If god were only interested in the people who have since become Catholic then I would agree with you. As for the sarcasm I've set that aside as I think the point valid whether you view the methods ultimately as evil or good. And besides, if the people beaten and threatened were going to suffer for time and all eternity otherwise then the methods are not so evil. Saving them and their descendants could be argued as reasonable justification.

[Beerina]

I think there's a verse in Matthew which exhorts followers to go forth and make disciples of all people. It's a divine command.


divine ● adj memetic, of a meme, esp. a sub-meme as a plank in a large-scale world control meme. "I'm glad we adopted the idea that everyone should be forced to join our health care plan; that's just divine."

[empeake]

Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity?

Perhaps because it is a commodity. Most people need to believe in some kind of supreme being. Each brand of religion just tries to satisfy this need by marketing their own brand of god(s).

Why does god need emissaries?

Who am I to know what the needs of the gods may be (after all, they work in mysterious ways). On the human side, however, I do find a parallel between missionary work and multilevel marketing. The more "customers" you get into the network, more "points" you earn, which can be later be redeemed for prizes, such as a feel-good sensation, a promotion in the company, or a better suite in the afterlife.

[six7s]

It's a great revenue source. Can you imagine a sales force that works for free?No

But I can think of a force that would work to sell an imaginary million dollars:
Kiss Hank's Ass! (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php)

[HansMustermann]

You guys are forgetting that coming to God through Christ must be done as an act of free will. If God himself was too invasive, the possibly won souls wouldn't count.

I still don't buy it.

1. So then the souls of the people who never heard of Christ in the first place (e.g., about 1500 years worth of both Americas, Australia, etc) count as punishable fair and square? What kind of a deranged sadistic God would do that?

It's like if I were crouched over an anthill with a burning glass, deciding that any ants that go out today must be punished. Of course, I haven't told them so, but they must be punished for not guessing my rules. Burn, sinner, burn.

2. "Free will" is a perverted notion if it really means "free to guess what I want you to do, and you'll be punished if you guessed wrong."

Either set clear and known rules and judge people's adherence to them (e.g., how rule of the law works), or just sit back and observe what they do by themselves. But judging someone by something as random as guessing right or wrong, is just stupid. Doubly so when the choice doesn't even boil down to morals or social behaviour or anything, but something as random and arbitrary and irrelevant for their society as guessing right about Jesus.

Again, I return to the example with the anthill. Today I decide that I want the ants to march south. All that march in any other direction, will burn for that sin. It's not even something like culling out the aggressive ones, or giving them any kind of law, it's just expecting them to guess what arbitrary criterion I've set today. What's the _point_ in it, other than deranged sadism?

Basically the words that come to mind are, "WTF?"

[roger]

Well, if your ants are too dumbevil to follow the chemical trails of the ants going south, they deserve what they get!

[hgc]

They're just pieces in the creator's board game called Earth. Creator likes them because they have really cool powers. His favorite variety, of course, are the Mormons.

[Third Eye Open]

**Some well thought out and logical questions.**

The mind of GOD is to far beyond our understanding for us to question HIM.

JUST OBEY!;)

[Minarvia]

Because God has a twisted sense of humour and wanted to see how short a time it took for his actual message to be turned into something completely idiotic. You know, like that game where you whisper into a person's ear, they whisper into the next, and by the 6th person it is a completely different word. :cool:

[Elizabeth I]

It's like if I were crouched over an anthill with a burning glass, deciding that any ants that go out today must be punished. Of course, I haven't told them so, but they must be punished for not guessing my rules. Burn, sinner, burn.

I had a boss like that one time.

[fullflavormenthol]

For the same reason he needs a starship.
You beat me to it. :( I was hoping to make the first Capt. Kirk reference for this thread.

[yy2bggggs]

For the same reason he needs a starship.

This pleases the OTS.

[Tapio]

1. So then the souls of the people who never heard of Christ in the first place (e.g., about 1500 years worth of both Americas, Australia, etc) count as punishable fair and square? What kind of a deranged sadistic God would do that?

A God that does not exist. God has had a plan all along, and within this plan He's created a loving role for those who haven't had the chance to hear the Gospel (be it before or after the coming of Christ).

Remember that Hell (originally Gehenna, the place where garbage was burned outside of Jerusalem) was only a metaphor Christ used in order to convey the despair and anguish of the eternal separation from God. So there is no actual punishment in store for anyone, it's simply a matter of living eternally or ceasing to exist after this physical life.

The people (before and/or after Christ) who haven't heard the Gospel will be given the chance before The Final Judgement. So no one will be left out unless they choose it themselves.

2. "Free will" is a perverted notion if it really means "free to guess what I want you to do, and you'll be punished if you guessed wrong."

I don't understand what you mean by "guessing". Nobody can "guess" whether they've welcomed Christ as their personal saviour or not. He who feels it knows it.


Either set clear and known rules and judge people's adherence to them (e.g., how rule of the law works), or just sit back and observe what they do by themselves. But judging someone by something as random as guessing right or wrong, is just stupid. Doubly so when the choice doesn't even boil down to morals or social behaviour or anything, but something as random and arbitrary and irrelevant for their society as guessing right about Jesus.

The "rules" are quite clear to those who've heard the Gospel and welcomed Christ and the Holy Spirit into their hearts. If you have questions about a certain aspect of the "rules" I'll be pleased to answer.

But I must remind you the time of strict law ended with Christs resurrection. That's why we have the Holy Spirit which/who guides us in the face of difficult ethical or moral questions.

Boy, this really cracks me up. What a blast from the past. PLease, play along!:golf:

[thatguywhojuggles]

I've always said if I were god, I'd make my presence so obvious, my image so clear, my intentions so easy to understand which would require no personal interpretation, everyone would agree on who I am, there would be no pesky atheists to deal with, all would know me--all.

Maybe god isn't god-like enough to be that kind of god.

[merentha]

To introduce some variety into the natives' diet.

[KingMerv00]

To introduce some variety into the natives' diet.

Yea, ******** is delicious.

[LarianLeQuella]

Because he's apparently ***** incompetent from all the work attributed to him! :p

[CriticalSock]

A God that does not exist. God has had a plan all along, and within this plan He's created a loving role for those who haven't had the chance to hear the Gospel (be it before or after the coming of Christ).

Remember that Hell (originally Gehenna, the place where garbage was burned outside of Jerusalem) was only a metaphor Christ used in order to convey the despair and anguish of the eternal separation from God. So there is no actual punishment in store for anyone, it's simply a matter of living eternally or ceasing to exist after this physical life.

The people (before and/or after Christ) who haven't heard the Gospel will be given the chance before The Final Judgement. So no one will be left out unless they choose it themselves.



I don't understand what you mean by "guessing". Nobody can "guess" whether they've welcomed Christ as their personal saviour or not. He who feels it knows it.




The "rules" are quite clear to those who've heard the Gospel and welcomed Christ and the Holy Spirit into their hearts. If you have questions about a certain aspect of the "rules" I'll be pleased to answer.

But I must remind you the time of strict law ended with Christs resurrection. That's why we have the Holy Spirit which/who guides us in the face of difficult ethical or moral questions.

Boy, this really cracks me up. What a blast from the past. PLease, play along!:golf:

I like to play!

So why is this process indistinguishable from a limited, man made deities actions, so that it doesn't require an act of faith but rather blind belief to accept?

To me, a faith based belief would be as the result of seeing something which I can't understand but has the appearance of being the action of an omnipotent god. The aurora borealis spelling out Yaweh every Sunday for example. i.e. a perfectly natural phenomenon which is unexplainable by science. To only use the bible as your basis equals blind belief to me.

[Tapio]

So why is this process indistinguishable from a limited, man made deities actions, so that it doesn't require an act of faith but rather blind belief to accept?

Sorry, I don't understand your question...could you please rephrase it...

To me, a faith based belief would be as the result of seeing something which I can't understand but has the appearance of being the action of an omnipotent god. The aurora borealis spelling out Yaweh every Sunday for example. i.e. a perfectly natural phenomenon which is unexplainable by science. To only use the bible as your basis equals blind belief to me.

But accepting Christ as your personal saviour is not a physical act. Though many people experience a wide range of different sensory phenomenon, which they interpret as religious, it has little to do with what happens in your soul. The Bible is definitely not the sole basis for true christian faith. The Bible is only man-made. What really brings forth the joy, endurance, compassion and active seeking to become a tool for the love of God, is the daily relationship with the Holy Spirit. Which happens mostly on a spiritual level.

It's extremely important not to let yourself be fooled by visions and whatnot, and realize the capability of the human brain to produce all sorts of things. One of the greatest challenges of a christian is to try to separate the true spiritual experience of communicating with the Holy Spirit from pure physical phenomena.

[timhau]

You guys are forgetting that coming to God through Christ must be done as an act of free will. If God himself was too invasive, the possibly won souls wouldn't count.

So... given that god is the creator of the Universe, why doesn't he change scoring? The way I understood it all is that this isn't some arcane form of pseudo-democracy like the International Football Association Board (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Football_Association_Board). God is the head honcho and makes the rules, so he doesn't have that easy "Them's the rules, what's a poor divine being to do?" way out.

[diegesis]

We don't need missionaries to convince people that the sky is blue. Why does god need emissaries? Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity? Does god really need a PR department, publicists, salespeople, etc..

All business need PR, commercials, salespeople e.t.c.

[CriticalSock]

Sorry, I don't understand your question...could you please rephrase it...


I mean the whole thing. The bible, the missionaries, the miracles, the mission statement.

Why is the bible exactly what you would expect to be written by a male oriented tribal society with an expansionist ethos?

Why would the message be spread from one single point out across the globe by humans?

Why are the miracles all things like killing enemies and browbeating pharaohs?

Why is the mission statement join us or die?



But accepting Christ as your personal saviour is not a physical act. Though many people experience a wide range of different sensory phenomenon, which they interpret as religious, it has little to do with what happens in your soul. The Bible is definitely not the sole basis for true christian faith. The Bible is only man-made. What really brings forth the joy, endurance, compassion and active seeking to become a tool for the love of God, is the daily relationship with the Holy Spirit. Which happens mostly on a spiritual level.

It's extremely important not to let yourself be fooled by visions and whatnot, and realize the capability of the human brain to produce all sorts of things. One of the greatest challenges of a christian is to try to separate the true spiritual experience of communicating with the Holy Spirit from pure physical phenomena.

What criteria do you use for telling real spiritual experiences apart from false ones?

What other basis for christian faith is there apart from the bible? You only know about the holy spirit because of the bible so your daily relationship with it is based on your belief in the truth of the bible surely?

[CriticalSock]

Ah sorry, I appear to have put half my response inside your quote!

[Tapio]

So... given that god is the creator of the Universe, why doesn't he change scoring?

Why should s/he "change scoring"?

[Tapio]

Why is the bible exactly what you would expect to be written by a male oriented tribal society with an expansionist ethos?

Because it is exactly that. Also, the books accepted in to the New Testament are ones that support this kind of "male oriented tribal society with an expansionist ethos". The Bible, (for the kind of christian I'm impersonating), is not what christianity is about. It's a an essential part of it, but not nearly everything.

Why would the message be spread from one single point out across the globe by humans?

I can't answer exactly why God chose the exact physical location He did to act as a framework for the beginning of the new era/next phase of His plan. But so it is, a mystery I'm content with. But we believe it has something to do with how people in that part of the world, in that time, would be the most likely to accept the Son of God as their Saviour/Messiah.


Why are the miracles all things like killing enemies and browbeating pharaohs?

Now you're talking about Moses. I'd prefer this (ghost) discussion to keep on the track of the OP, which means stuff relating to the NT and what happened missionary-wise after Jesus' death.

What criteria do you use for telling real spiritual experiences apart from false ones?

How is it in English...you know the tree from it's fruit...

What other basis for christian faith is there apart from the bible? You only know about the holy spirit because of the bible so your daily relationship with it is based on your belief in the truth of the bible surely?

That's a good question. Yes, a part of my christianity undoubtedly rests on the Bible. Especially when it comes to events that are told to happen after Jesus' death. Now, "Holy Spirit" is just a name given to something that ultimately can't be named. So to me, the real challenge is to question whether the experiences I attribute to the Holy Spirit are from the same source as the experiences Jesus' desciples describe having 2000 years ago. For those experiences are one of the fundamental differences in somebody only claiming to be a christian and somebody actually being a christian.

And to this challenge Jesus has been told to give the guidelines I gave as an answer to your question earlier. These guidelines are strengthened by how the experiences of the Holy Spirit are discussed and handled by the apostles in the NT.

[timhau]

Why should s/he "change scoring"?

Because he loves us and thus presumably wants to save us, but he has made this rulebook where saving us is hard. So, why not use that omnipotence and rewrite the rules to make it easier?

For an omniscient, omnipotent being, god acts a lot like a low-level bureaucrat.

[CriticalSock]

But that's my whole contention!

The bible is the only source of christian belief.

The bible is written by men and is not divine, as proved by the fact that it's scope and breadth of imagination is only that of a male oriented tribal society.

Therefore the reason that god needs missionaries is because god is a manmade construct by men who didn't have the ability to think up a more suitably omnipotent solution to the message delivery system and so had to fall back on the woefully inadequate man on a camel approach.

Big Hugs!
CS

[Jorghnassen]

If you want to get technical, God (the YHWH one) revealed himself to his chosen people, the Jews. Then Jesus came along and revealed himself to be the Messiah. Some of the chosen people didn't realize it. Those who did had to spread the good news. But, as Jesus said that everyone, not just the Jews, deserved salvation, the mission was to spread the good news throughout the world. Thus the missionaries, to spread the word, and the missionary position, to spread the legs, I mean, to increase the number of Christians "naturally".

[Bikewer]

One of the problems Christians may have with this notion is that missionary work was directly responsible for the deaths of millions of indigenous peoples.
In the book "1491" the author recounts initial Jesuit forays up the Mississippi that encountered a very large population of Indians along the route. Flourishing villages, agriculture, essentially wall-to-wall habitation.
A hundred years later, a charnel house. Abandoned villages, no population whatever.
estimates currently indicate as much as 90% of the native American population may have been killed by European diseases.

[ToddH]

Didn't the great philosopher James T. Kirk once ask a similar question...

"“What does God need with a starship?”

[Tanstaafl]

I thought we had missionaries so that a certain sexual position would not go nameless.

[RandFan]

I don't understand what you mean by "guessing". Nobody can "guess" whether they've welcomed Christ as their personal saviour or not. He who feels it knows it.I sincerly asked. I've put out the welcome mat. I've spent hours on my knees. I said the prayer and accepted him as my "personal savior".

But I didn't feel that I knew it.

So, god is arbitrary.

And what would cause someone who wasn't inclined to "welcome" christ as their personal savior? What of them? You act as if it is obvious for others to do as you and I have done.


So what do we have?

Some ask and get an answer.
Some ask and get nothing.
Some never ask because they've no reason to and don't feel like guessing.
So, god is arbitrary.

[fromdownunder]

I thought we had missionaries so that a certain sexual position would not go nameless.

Plagiarist! See Post #9

Norm

[Coolhat]

Personally I think we should stop using euphemisms like "missionary work" or "spreading the word". Call it like it is: a cultural offensive, with the aim of destroying other religions and thus attaining global dominance.

[Beanbag]

The White Man's Burden.

If not for missionaries, we'd have to find something else for the zealots to do, like stamping out communism. The nice thing about missionary work is that it sends the nutcases somewhere else to bother the people who don't look/act/think like us (and who therefore can be exploited and/or used as food).

Beanbag

[diegesis]

The White Man's Burden.

If not for missionaries, we'd have to find something else for the zealots to do, like stamping out communism. The nice thing about missionary work is that it sends the nutcases somewhere else to bother the people who don't look/act/think like us (and who therefore can be exploited and/or used as food).

Beanbag

Yes, but if it happens that the "food" is one of your family or friends then things are no that cool.

[Beanbag]

Yes, but if it happens that the "food" is one of your family or friends then things are no that cool.
You didn't by chance happen to mistakenly check your sense of humor at the door when you logged in today, did you? Your post count makes me suspect that you interpreted my posting as serious.

Beanbag

[diegesis]

You didn't by chance happen to mistakenly check your sense of humor at the door when you logged in today, did you? Your post count makes me suspect that you interpreted my posting as serious.

Beanbag

no I didn't.

[Darth Rotor]

This is from the current Atheist Experience Podcast (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/).

We don't need missionaries to convince people that the sky is blue. Why does god need emissaries? Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity? Does god really need a PR department, publicists, salespeople, etc..
It is rooted in salvation being a choice, not being predetermined. If you don't give it freely, it doesn't work.

See also Love. RandFan, have you ever tried taking love from someone? Tell me how you did it, if you ever succeeded. Also thanks. Ever taken thanks from someone? Love, thanks, can only be given. Likewise forgiveness.

If you are a closet Calvinist, I apologize in advance for offending you, along with the other Determinists here.

To introduce some variety into the natives' diet.
Agreed. God is good, God is great. He loves all of his children. Yes, he shows some curious (to us) ways of manifesting that.

DR

[RandFan]

It is rooted in salvation being a choice, not being predetermined. If you don't give it freely, it doesn't work.

See also Love. RandFan, have you ever tried taking love from someone? Tell me how you did it, if you ever succeeded. Also thanks. Ever taken thanks from someone? Love, thanks, can only be given. Likewise forgiveness. "You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." --Christ

I've read enough science fiction and I've fertile enough of a mind to know that god could do ever so much more than cheap marketing gimmicks (http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/healing.html) and hucksters.

If you are a closet Calvinist, I apologize in advance for offending you, along with the other Determinists here. I've absolutely no idea if humans have free will and I honestly don't care (if I don't have free will I don't see that I have a choice in the matter anyway ;)).

But you are missing a very, very important point. Why would someone not choose god? I'd like to think that if there is a god and I have free will that I'm as worthy as anyone to accept god and his plan for me.

Was I created to not choose?
Are the variables beyond my control really enough to condemn me?
What if I had never heard the missionary message?
What if the message sounds hollow and cheap to me?
What if there are many competing and conflicting messages and all look like they have the mark of the human mind behind them?
That god would give me the freedom to choose his plan is meaningless if he didn't provide an adequate way for me to know what his plan was.

So, again, why does god need missionaries?

[Ducky]

This is from the current Atheist Experience Podcast (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/).

We don't need missionaries to convince people that the sky is blue. Why does god need emissaries? Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity? Does god really need a PR department, publicists, salespeople, etc..

No but those who wish to feel superior often find it is easier to swallow their own actions if it is couched in the guise of helping someone else.

[diegesis]

I've absolutely no idea if humans have free will and I honestly don't care (if I don't have free will I don't see that I have a choice in the matter anyway ;)).

But you are missing a very, very important point. Why would someone not choose homeopathy? I'd like to think that if homeopathy works and I have free will that I'm as worthy as anyone to accept homeopathy and it's treatments for me.

Was I created to not choose?
Are the variables beyond my control really enough to condemn me?
What if I had never heard the homeopathists message?
What if the message sounds hollow and cheap to me?
What if there are many competing and conflicting messages and all look like they have the mark of the tsarlatan mind behind them?
That homeopathy would give me the freedom to choose it's treatments is meaningless if he didn't provide an adequate way for me to know what its treatments were.

So, again, why does homeopathy needs homeopathy doctors?

[don't mind me, just playing :) ]

[RandFan]

I've absolutely no idea if humans have free will and I honestly don't care (if I don't have free will I don't see that I have a choice in the matter anyway ;)).


But you are missing a very, very important point. Why would someone not choose homeopathy? I'd like to think that if homeopathy works and I have free will that I'm as worthy as anyone to accept homeopathy and it's treatments for me.

Was I created to not choose?
Are the variables beyond my control really enough to condemn me?
What if I had never heard the homeopathists message?
What if the message sounds hollow and cheap to me?
What if there are many competing and conflicting messages and all look like they have the mark of the tsarlatan mind behind them?
That homeopathy would give me the freedom to choose it's treatments is meaningless if he didn't provide an adequate way for me to know what its treatments were.

So, again, why does homeopathy needs homeopathy doctors?

[don't mind me, just playing :) ] Your parody is missing an important element. A diety. Without that it seems to fall flat.

Perhaps you could re-work it but I'm not sure how. Best of luck with that. :)

[six7s]

It is rooted in salvation being a choiceIt is rooted in mythology and imperialism

God is good, God is great.God is bad, God is a myth

[six7s]

Your parody is missing an important element. A diety. Without that it seems to fall flat.Aren't recipes verboten?

[RandFan]

Aren't recipes verboten?:o

[ChongLee]

like a pyramid scheme... ?

[Beerina]

This is from the current Atheist Experience Podcast (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/).

We don't need missionaries to convince people that the sky is blue. Why does god need emissaries? Why is it that religion is by and large sold like any other commodity? Does god really need a PR department, publicists, salespeople, etc..

"Emissary" is related to emigrate. These people don't actually come from wherever God is. They are, at best, local hirelings, and usually reflect that status with a variation of the traveling snake oil salesman.

[six7s]

They are, at best, local hirelings, and usually reflect that status with a variation of the traveling snake oil salesman.
dzOHq5WbQ8k
Assume the Position