Shamanism

[Limbo]

Anyone here read up on shamanism at all? I recently finished reading Shamans Through Time: 500 Years on The Path To Knowledge (http://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Through-Time-Jeremy-Narby/dp/1585423629/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240238460&sr=8-1). A collection of essays that traces Western civilizations attempt to understand shamanism. The earliest essay is from 1535, titled "Devil Worship: Consuming Tobacco to Receive Messages from Nature." The latest essay is from 2000, titled "Shamans and Scientists". It very interesting to see how views changed over 500 years.

[Bikewer]

Nothing in particular....It seemed to me that with our primitive ancestors almost universally believing in some form of animism, eventually the task of dealing with all those annoying spirits would fall to individuals who were well-suited to the task.

These would likely be the same personality types who like to do so today....

Once a shamanistic "class" is set up, then it's kind of self-perpetuating.

[Limbo]

Nothing in particular....It seemed to me that with our primitive ancestors almost universally believing in some form of animism, eventually the task of dealing with all those annoying spirits would fall to individuals who were well-suited to the task.

These would likely be the same personality types who like to do so today....

Once a shamanistic "class" is set up, then it's kind of self-perpetuating.


You make it sound like being a shaman in a traditional society was a matter of choice, like a job or a hobby or a hairstyle.

[Limbo]

Here are a few essay titles from the book:

"The Shaman: A Villain of a Magician Who Calls Demons" (1672)

"Shamans Are Impostors Who Claim They Consult the Devil - And Who Are Sometimes Close to the Mark" (1765)

"Shamanism Is a Dangerously Vague Word" (1903)

"Seeking Knowledge In The Solitude of Nature" (1930)

"Aboriginal Doctors Are Outstanding People" (1945)

"Shamans as Psychoanalysts" (1949)

"The Shaman Is Mentally Deranged" (1956)

"Experiencing The Shaman's Symphony to Understand It" (1987)

"Two Kinds of Japanese Shamans: The Medium and the Ascetic" (1975)

"Science and Magic, Two Roads to Knowledge" (1962)

"Shamans Explore the Human Mind" (1990)

"Shamans as Botanical Researchers" (1995)

If anyone has any questions about any of these feel free to ask.

[Fnord]

I was apprenticed to my cousin the witch for a couple of years. Most of those books printed before 1990 were required reading, but not for gaining or increasing any "Shamanic" abilities. Instead, my cousin told me to read them so that when the sucke ... err ... clients asked about spirituality, I could give them a spiel that would sound good even though it made no sense at all.

She also told me that the three most important rules of "Shamanism" are (in no particular order):

- Never believe any of it yourself.
- Make money.
- Keep them coming back for more.

I gave it up when I realized that I was gaining influence over some very nice, yet utterly gullible people, and that I could lead them to do almost anything I wanted; including immoral acts (pretty nasty when you realize that about a quarter of your clientel is composed of under-aged girls).

[RandFan]

The mad face is an accident. I'm not sure how I checked it.

She also told me that the three most important rules of "Shamanism" are (in no particular order):

- Never believe any of it yourself.
- Make money.
- Keep them coming back for more.

I have a friend who is a shaman. He worked for one of my clients and quite his job to work full time as a shaman. He made a lot of money and he asked if I wanted to join him. I told him I didn't believe. "That's ok" he said, "you don't need to".

Shamanism arose at a time when most people died young. Infant mortality was high and a person could be eaten by a predator. It's not surprising that people looked to gifted individuals to protect them and provide them with healing and comfort even if it was a sham.

[CriticalSock]

I have a friend who is a shaman. He's level 80 on the Ajzol Nerub server. I'm not a Shaman. I'm a Death Knight.

[HansMustermann]

You make it sound like being a shaman in a traditional society was a matter of choice, like a job or a hobby or a hairstyle.

I'm pretty sure that it was a job.

[Limbo]

I'm pretty sure that it was a job.


Not really. It's more like an experience.

"The shaman is the person who has in his late childhood, early youth, could be male or female, had a overwhelming psychological experience, that turns him totally inward. The whole unconscious has opened up and they've fallen into it. And it's been described many, many times. And it occurs all the way from Siberia, right through the Americas, down to Tierra del Fuego. It's a kind of schizophrenic crack-up, the shaman experience." -Joseph Campbell

[quarky]

A shaman is a servant.

[TimCallahan]

Not really. It's more like an experience.

"The shaman is the person who has in his late childhood, early youth, could be male or female, had a overwhelming psychological experience, that turns him totally inward. The whole unconscious has opened up and they've fallen into it. And it's been described many, many times. And it occurs all the way from Siberia, right through the Americas, down to Tierra del Fuego. It's a kind of schizophrenic crack-up, the shaman experience." -Joseph Campbell

Another excellent source on the shamanic psychological crisis is Mircea Eliade's "Shamanism." One interesting point about the shamanic initiation is that the initiate symbolically dies and is reborn. For example, among the Yakut, a Siberian tribe, the initiate lies "dead" in his yurt for three days and nights. When I read that, I was immidiately struck by the similarity to Jesus' death and resurrection. Consider the following:

Mark 8:31: And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after threedays rise again.

Matthew 2:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

[drkitten]

Not really. It's more like an experience.

Not really. It's more like a job, one for which having an experience (or pretending to have an experience) is part of the qualifications. And of course the experience has to be part of the approved shamanic tradition, typically under the control of the existing tribal shaman who picked you as his or her apprentice a while back to train you for the job.

[Fnord]

... One interesting point about the shamanic initiation is that the initiate symbolically dies and is reborn. For example, among the Yakut, a Siberian tribe, the initiate lies "dead" in his yurt for three days and nights. When I read that, I was immidiately struck by the similarity to Jesus' death and resurrection...
As if Bible verses have any relevancy in an age and among people not dominated by fear, ignorance, and superstition.

Not really. It's more like a job, one for which having an experience (or pretending to have an experience) is part of the qualifications. And of course the experience has to be part of the approved shamanic tradition, typically under the control of the existing tribal shaman who picked you as his or her apprentice a while back to train you for the job.
To borrow from an old military recruitment slogan: "It's not just a job, it's an indenture!"

[TimCallahan]

[QUOTE=Fnord;4640359]As if Bible verses have any relevancy in an age and among people not dominated by fear, ignorance, and superstition.

The relevence of these verses is that the death and resurrection motif was around a long time before Jesus, Dionysos or even Osiris. While the agricultural cycle of the birth, maturation and death of crops certainly added a new dimension to the shamanic initiation version of death and rebirth, the fact that verses from the Christian scriptures so closely parallel a religio-mythic motif from a tribe of Siberian hunter-gatherers indicates that it is a universal archetype embedded in the human psyche. As such, it certainly does have relevance.

[drkitten]

the fact that verses from the Christian scriptures so closely parallel a religio-mythic motif from a tribe of Siberian hunter-gatherers indicates that it is a universal archetype embedded in the human psyche. As such, it certainly does have relevance.

Because, of course, there's no way that Siberian hunter-gatherers could have heard the story at some time in the past two thousand years. Or, for that matter, that both the Siberians and the Jews could have heard the same story about Osiris or Gilgamesh at some time in the past five thousand. OMG, it must be proof of a Jungian spiritual psychic archetype!

Are you familiar with the _Kalevala_?


There the babe was born and cradled
Cradled in a woodland-manger,
Of the virgin, Mariatta,
Pure as pearly dews of morning,
Holy as the stars in heaven.


Is that an indication that a child born to a virgin named something close to "Mary" and laid in a manger is "a universal archetype embedded in the human psyche," or is it a garbled retelling of the Christmas myth that the Finns had heard from early missionaries?

[TimCallahan]

[QUOTE=drkitten;4643228]Because, of course, there's no way that Siberian hunter-gatherers could have heard the story at some time in the past two thousand years. Or, for that matter, that both the Siberians and the Jews could have heard the same story about Osiris or Gilgamesh at some time in the past five thousand. OMG, it must be proof of a Jungian spiritual psychic archetype!

Yes, there is always the chance of contamination of native mythologies by Christian missionaries. For example, there are a number of stories of how death came into the world. One type is the eating of a forbidden fruit. Of course, when a non-literate people living in an area where missionary activity has taken place comes up with such a story it is often hard to tell whether they adopted it from what missionaries taught them or if it was there originally. However, the Efe Pygmies of the Iturri rain forest in the eastern Congo weren't contacted by missionaries until the 1930s. Fortunately - from an anthropological perspective - these first missionaries were Jesuits who had been trained as anthropologists. They were astounded when the Efe told them how death entered the world through eating a forbidden fruit.

Another tale of how death entered the world, this time told by the Montagnais Indians of Quebec, is a varient of the Greek myth of Pandora. It's a type of story called "death in a bundle (or container)." Since there's no reason anyone would have taken the trouble to teach the Montagnais Greek mythology, the parallel in this case is unlikely to the result of cultural contamination.

Yet another example of a striking parallel is the "tunnel trick." A trickster character, having eaten a female's children, is pursued by the vengeful mother. He runs into a tunnel. The mother, thinking it's a blind burrow and that he is trapped, runs in after him. The trickster emerges from the other end of the tunnel, sets a lethal barrier there, runs back to the other opening and sets a lethal barrier there as well. The vengeful mother is trapped and killed. This story is told of Wakdjunkaga, trickster of the Winnebago, from the Great Lakes region, and Thlokunyana, trickster of the Zulu. It's hard to figure how cross-cultural contamination spread the story between the Great Lakes and South Africa, particularly without it showing up anywhere in between.

Bringing this back to shamanism, the three day symbolic death is found among many different non-literate peoples across the globe. A varient on this is that the initiate is torn to pieces and devoured, as in the case of Dionysos being devoured by the Titans then being resurrected. This variant obviously isn't the result of missionary activity. Given how widespread the three day death and resurrection is, and the fact that it shows up in cultures with varying exposure to missionaries, I doubt that it was the result of their contamination.

As to this remark of yours - "OMG, it must be proof of a Jungian spiritual psychic archetype!" - you demonstrate by it that you obviously know nothing Jung's theory of the collective unconscious. There's nothing spiritual or psychic about it. Jung merely thought that we came up with the same archetypes because we are all wired the same. I think he was on to something in this instance, though I would not call myself a Jungian.

Finally, I'm answering your post in spite of your sarcasm rather than because of it.

[Limbo]

Don't forget the Axis Mundi ;)

[Limbo]

One interesting point about the shamanic initiation is that the initiate symbolically dies and is reborn.


Yes. An NDE of sorts. The shaman traverses the Axis Mundi and its 'branches', gaining 'spirit allies'. With the aid of these allies he cures disease, acts as psychopomp for the dying, etc.

Another interest is the relationship between the shaman and the mythological trickster figure. The same sort of relationship can be seen in yogi and saints.

[Steelmage]

I am pretty sure he was in Alpha flight.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Shaman_(Michael_Twoyoungmen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman_(comics))

[Limbo]

I am pretty sure he was in Alpha flight.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Shaman_(Michael_Twoyoungmen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman_(comics))


I didn't know there was such a Marvel character. I'll have to check out his origin issue.

[godless dave]

You make it sound like being a shaman in a traditional society was a matter of choice, like a job or a hobby or a hairstyle.

Like a job. Depending how the society established labor roles, it might have been a choice, or future shamans were selected by the current shaman, or it might have been an inherited position.

[Fnord]

You can't spell "Shamanism" without starting with "Sham."

[drkitten]

Yes, there is always the chance of contamination of native mythologies by Christian missionaries. For example, there are a number of stories of how death came into the world. One type is the eating of a forbidden fruit. Of course, when a non-literate people living in an area where missionary activity has taken place comes up with such a story it is often hard to tell whether they adopted it from what missionaries taught them or if it was there originally. However, the Efe Pygmies of the Iturri rain forest in the eastern Congo weren't contacted by missionaries until the 1930s.

Let me provide some more sarcasm, then. Missionaries are the only sources of stories?

Fortunately - from an anthropological perspective - these first missionaries were Jesuits who had been trained as anthropologists. They were astounded when the Efe told them how death entered the world through eating a forbidden fruit.

They should be. But if they immediately leap to the idea that this somehow validates the story either as a true story or as a Jungian archetype, then the missionaries are idiots.


Yet another example of a striking parallel is the "tunnel trick." A trickster character, having eaten a female's children, is pursued by the vengeful mother. He runs into a tunnel. The mother, thinking it's a blind burrow and that he is trapped, runs in after him. The trickster emerges from the other end of the tunnel, sets a lethal barrier there, runs back to the other opening and sets a lethal barrier there as well. The vengeful mother is trapped and killed. This story is told of Wakdjunkaga, trickster of the Winnebago, from the Great Lakes region, and Thlokunyana, trickster of the Zulu. It's hard to figure how cross-cultural contamination spread the story between the Great Lakes and South Africa, particularly without it showing up anywhere in between.

And that is the key aspects that all of your Christian examples lack.


Bringing this back to shamanism, the three day symbolic death is found among many different non-literate peoples across the globe.

So are firearms. I guess that means that firearms were independently developed. Funny how many of them are even recognizable as AK-47 and variants. I submit that it's more likely that they bought firearms from other people who had access to them than that the Kalishnikov design is a Jungian archetype.


As to this remark of yours - "OMG, it must be proof of a Jungian spiritual psychic archetype!" - you demonstrate by it that you obviously know nothing Jung's theory of the collective unconscious. There's nothing spiritual or psychic about it. Jung merely thought that we came up with the same archetypes because we are all wired the same. I think he was on to something in this instance, though I would not call myself a Jungian.

No, you're a Campbellian.

[godless dave]

Campbell had a lot of interesting ideas, but I don't think he was renowned for scholarly rigour.

I think it's possible that shamans from different societies may have independently come up with some of the same stories and beliefs. If so, that says more about human psychology than anything supernatural or divine.

[TimCallahan]

.

I think it's possible that shamans from different societies may have independently come up with some of the same stories and beliefs. If so, that says more about human psychology than anything supernatural or divine.

That's my whole point. I'm rather surprised that it should be a matter of such controversy.

[AkuManiMani]

I was apprenticed to my cousin the witch for a couple of years. Most of those books printed before 1990 were required reading, but not for gaining or increasing any "Shamanic" abilities. Instead, my cousin told me to read them so that when the sucke ... err ... clients asked about spirituality, I could give them a spiel that would sound good even though it made no sense at all.

She also told me that the three most important rules of "Shamanism" are (in no particular order):

- Never believe any of it yourself.
- Make money.
- Keep them coming back for more.

I gave it up when I realized that I was gaining influence over some very nice, yet utterly gullible people, and that I could lead them to do almost anything I wanted; including immoral acts (pretty nasty when you realize that about a quarter of your clientel is composed of under-aged girls).

A former friend of mine used to tell me about how she was adept at manipulating people even as a small child and she even had aspirations of becoming a cult leader. Oddly enough, she would often complain that she found the portrayal of shamans in popular media offensive.

Of course, we ended up having a falling out. At that point, she took the opportunity to convince my father and younger sister over the phone that I was demonicly possessed, or some such non-sense. The degree to which she could manipulate people was downright eerie...

[Fnord]

A former friend of mine ... The degree to which she could manipulate people was downright eerie.
Sounds like my daughter-in-law. Once she realized that she couldn't manipulate me, she tried to turn my sons and other relatives against me. She only partially succeeded, and only with my son. He's coming 'round now ... after about two years of marriage to "Ms. Wunnerful."

[ugot2bekidding]

I had a friend that wanted to marry a Shaman. When she took him to meet her parents they were horrified...they pulled her aside and said.."You dummy, we said RICH doctor!

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I have a friend who is a shaman. He's level 80 on the Ajzol Nerub server. I'm not a Shaman. I'm a Death Knight.

:D

[Limbo]

I have a friend who is a shaman. He's level 80 on the Ajzol Nerub server. I'm not a Shaman. I'm a Death Knight.


Nerf Shamans!

[AkuManiMani]

Nerf Shamans!

Oh Em Gee! Evry spec except resto nedz buffz!!

[TimCallahan]

Let me provide some more sarcasm, then. Missionaries are the only sources of stories?

So what you're implying is that traders or someone else with no particular interest in proselytizing went out of their way to go into the Iturri rain forest and just happened to tell the Efe Pygmies the story of the fall from Genesis? To what purpose? And if they did, why did they leave out the snake or any other tempter?

[QUOTE=drkitten;4646769]
So are firearms. I guess that means that firearms were independently developed. Funny how many of them are even recognizable as AK-47 and variants. I submit that it's more likely that they bought firearms from other people who had access to them than that the Kalishnikov design is a Jungian archetype.

What exactly is your problem with the idea that parallel myths might pop up independently as a result of a common human psychology?

[QUOTE=drkitten;4646769]
No, you're a Campbellian.

I don't know that I'm a "Cambellian" or anything else; and, quite frankly, neither do you.

[Fnord]

I don't know that I'm a "Cambellian" or anything else; and, quite frankly, neither do you.

I'm a Reformed Pragmatyrian - nice ta meetcha!

[Eddie Dane]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what a shaman is supposed to be in a modern context.

What claims do they make? What "services" do they provide? What do their clients expect from them?

It's a form of woo I've never seen here in the Netherlands.

[AkuManiMani]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what a shaman is supposed to be in a modern context.

What claims do they make? What "services" do they provide? What do their clients expect from them?

It's a form of woo I've never seen here in the Netherlands.

A friend of mine suggested to me that the modern equivalent of the 'shaman' is the 'showman' ;)

[calebprime]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what a shaman is supposed to be in a modern context.

What claims do they make? What "services" do they provide? What do their clients expect from them?

It's a form of woo I've never seen here in the Netherlands.

Here in America we have Jerry Garcia.

[Fnord]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what a shaman is supposed to be in a modern context.

What claims do they make?
If they're smart, they make no definate claims at all.

What "services" do they provide?
They make their clients feel that the universe is not arbitrary, random, and uncaring.

What do their clients expect from them?
Affirmation. Assurance. Comfort.

It's a form of woo I've never seen here in the Netherlands.
Aren't there churches, prostitutes, and psychologists in the Netherlands?

[TX50]

delete (video doesn't work)

[Eddie Dane]

If they're smart, they make no definate claims at all.


They make their clients feel that the universe is not arbitrary, random, and uncaring.


Affirmation. Assurance. Comfort.


Aren't there churches, prostitutes, and psychologists in the Netherlands?

Prostitutes and psychologists make claims and provide services.

[Eddie Dane]

So do they claim to be a continuation of a pagan tradition. Ancient knowledge and all that?

Or is it just run of the mill woo, like I find in the new age centers in m hometown? Crystal healing and energy breathing and such?

I'm sorry but I even have trouble making small talk. BS is something truly incomprehensible to me. I couldn't talk crap about nothing for an hour, even if I got money for it. Just wouldn't know what to say.

ETA: I'm looking at some websites. It's quite funny:D

[Fnord]

Prostitutes and psychologists make claims and provide services.
I have no dispute with the fact that they both provide their respective services, but what claims other than the usual "you're doing just fine / you're making great progress" type do prostitutes and psychologist make?

Having never needed the services of either profession, I may be a little vague on the subject.

[AkuManiMani]

It seems that much of the fabric of society is built on illusions anyway. People's willingness to accept or buy into them are what make the world go 'round.

[Eddie Dane]

I have no dispute with the fact that they both provide their respective services, but what claims other than the usual "you're doing just fine / you're making great progress" type do prostitutes and psychologist make?

Having never needed the services of either profession, I may be a little vague on the subject.

I know a psychologist. She claims there are two types of clients:
The type that work out their problem in a session or three, and the type that needs to talk and vent periodically. But never move towards solving their problem.

She prefers the solution oriented types as a satisfying work experience, but admits that the talkers are her bread and butter.

Shaman and such probably perform that task for the "talkers". Making life more bearable for them.

[Fnord]

I know a psychologist. She claims there are two types of clients:
The type that work out their problem in a session or three, and the type that needs to talk and vent periodically. But never move towards solving their problem.

She prefers the solution oriented types as a satisfying work experience, but admits that the talkers are her bread and butter.

Shaman and such probably perform that task for the "talkers". Making life more bearable for them.
Hmm ... a little parody music, please ...

I know a prostitute. She claims there are two types of clients:

The type that have good relationships, but who resolve their kinkier desires or fantasies in a session or three; and the type that needs to ***k and talk with a whore periodically, but never move towards solving their relationship problems.

She prefers the resolution-oriented types as a satisfying work experience, but admits that the repeat customers - with all their ineptitude and sadness - are her bread and butter.

Shaman and such probably perform the same task for the "talkers" by simply making life more bearable for them without the added burden of actually confronting and resolving their personal difficulties, while the client that visits only once or twice provides satisfaction of having facilitiated the resolution of their particular issue, which is mostly just ordinary curiousity.

I see a lot of parallels between the "feelgood" aspects of prostitution, psychology, and shamanism, in that all three involve some form of relief of stress or release of a burden for the client in exchange for the client's money.

[Eddie Dane]

I see a lot of parallels between the "feelgood" aspects of prostitution, psychology, and shamanism, in that all three involve some form of relief of stress or release of a burden for the client in exchange for the client's money.

Well, it seems we agree on that one.

[Limbo]

Eddie,

I recommend this 60 minute video:

The Power of Myth Episode 3 - The First Storytellers (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5746362300931558127&ei=lCvySfqpIZ7k-gHsgOWIAg&q=the+first+storytellers+power+of+myth&dur=3)

[quarky]

A shaman takes on the psychological problem of the ill person, through certain gestures and sacrifices and hardships. That it was sometimes effective would be testament to the emotional contribution to feelings of illness. The sick believer would have some emotional release, knowing that a respected member of the tribe was enduring hardship for their well-being.

Before diseases were understood, it was probably more effective than blood-letting...or at least less harmful.