From Rapture Ready

[aggle-rithm]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/514649f88d49801fc.jpg

[Hokulele]

Yeah, but if you smite the infidels, you get the cider as a bonus. Plus a free toaster if you nail ten of them.


Is there some sort of a time limit on the smiting? I am kinda busy this morning.

[Moochie]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/514649f88d49801fc.jpg


Jesus! LOL! :D


M.

[Roadtoad]

Is there some sort of a time limit on the smiting? I am kinda busy this morning.

I'm not sure if this is a limited time offer. Maybe those in the know would tell us.

Or, maybe they'll smite us.

[Kernel Hapablap]

If you are truly open to find this question answered more in detail go to this website as Charlie Campbell is someone most of you can relate to. He's was just like many of you here on jref and has documented much of his journey from atheism to faith.
Here's a link the the 5 questions most skeptics ask...
http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71

Okay, I took the bait and went to the website. Most of the questions/answers presume the existence of God. Here's a list of said questions:

What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Will they be condemned to hell? Why would God have created us, if He knew in advance that so many people would be eternally lost?”Why do Christians reject the apocryphal writings that are in the Catholic Bible? What about homosexuals? Do you believe that they go to hell? Can God make a rock so big that He cannot move it? Yes or No? Why aren’t dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?How could the gospel writers have accurately remembered all that Jesus said and did?I always hear Christians say that Jesus fulfilled all of these prophecies. If that's true, where are they located in the Bible?My friend, who is a Mormon, has pointed out that the Mormon church seems to be growing faster than most Christian churches and indicated that this seems to be a sign of God's blessing. How might I respond to that?Does 2 John 10 mean we shouldn't allow cultists into our homes?

I tried to read all of the "responses", but they made me sleepy. These questions are moot without looking at the larger picture of evidence for God. There were only a few questions on the site that related to the existence of God and the truth of the Bible as a whole:

What evidence do you have that there is a God?
The answer, apparently, is the same old Thomas Aquinas watchmaker proof. The universe can't have made itself or have been around forever so it must have been created blah blah blah. Although the origins of the universe is an intriguing question, KK, just because we don't know the answer doesn't convince me there is a God. Wait 100 years, maybe scientists will figure it out. Maybe not.

What evidence do you have that the Bible is actually true?
The answer, apparently, is prophecy, archaeology, and unity. Please, KK, as I am trying so hard to see where you're coming from, provide one example of clear cut prophecy that came true. As far as archaeology goes, well, Elvis existed but that sure don't mean everything you hear about him is true. Good fiction writers tend to take their characters from the real world. This doesn't make it true. And unity, KK, this is a joke, right? The first two books in Genesis contradict each other, and you're telling me the whole thing is united? Sorry, can't buy that, either.

Finally, I'm either going crazy or there were more than 5 questions on that site.

[JetLeg]

How do I report to the moderators a thread derail?

-------------------------------

I don't mind KK posting in the forums, but I do mind her derailing my thread.

[Roadtoad]

Lower left corner. I don't think you'll get far with it; she's been doing this for ages.

[Tanstaafl]

At the lower left of the post there is a triangle with an exclamation point in it. Press that.

[Roadtoad]

Finally, I'm either going crazy or there were more than 5 questions on that site.

You're not. There were.

How do you trust someone telling you "facts" when they can't even count?

[JetLeg]

This is a really sick post from the same thread. Bolding mine.

KingdomSeeker,

I agree with posts by so many on this one---You do have a tender heart for both the Lord and for your unsaved loved ones!

My DH and I are praying daily for our kids and grandkids, especially. Our two daughters used to know the Lord (my daughter in particular had been sold-out for Jesus since she was a pre-schooler), but they've fallen away from faith, tacking God onto their plans at times, but living each day as functional atheists. They both think we're completely overboard on this, thinking that "This is the real world" and finding no real place for faith in it (SIGH!!!!)

What gives us hope is that they will both be "shaken" when we--and millions of other believers around the world--disappear. We've taught both of them all about the rapture, and it won't take them too long to realize that all of the "space alien abduction" theories and the rest just don't add up. It is then that they'll finally be open to the Word, and will read all of the books, and print-outs we keep at our home--in a special place, just for them.

Do we long for them to come Home to their Lord before the rapture? Of course! But we believe that--if they miss it--they will remember what we've shared and come to the Lord in faith, trusting in Him for salvation and His mercy and protection during the tribulation.

Keep praying, and believing that our Lord loves them even more than you can! The Holy Spirit--the "Hound of Heaven"--will draw them to the Lord--

God bless!
Jan

[Roadtoad]

This is a really sick post from the same thread. Bolding mine.

No question about that. She's hoping her daughters will endure seven years of sheer Hell?

"Hi, kids! I love you so much, I want you to endure seven years of Tribulation!" This is one sick woman.

I'll reiterate my question from earlier: What if anyone speaking of this is wrong? About any of it?

Oh, wait, that doesn't matter, right?

[Kernel Hapablap]

How do I report to the moderators a thread derail?


The original post was about shame and concern over family going to hell, right? Well, on topic, I will say this: let them feel shame, let them feel stress. I will laugh and play until the cows come home. Worry about me all you want: I (not so) silently mock thee.

[six7s]

How about my dad? Can I call him father? It seems a bit harsh if I can't. I mean, I don't usually, it's a bit formal, but still.You're Welsh, right?

And you know who your father is?

Ahhh....

Rarebit!

[Hokulele]

We've taught both of them all about the rapture, and it won't take them too long to realize that all of the "space alien abduction" theories and the rest just don't add up.


I wonder if space alien abduction is more likely...

[Tanstaafl]

I wonder if space alien abduction is more likely...


Of course alien abduction is more likely. We know there are beings* capable of space travel. There's no evidence of souls or gods.




*humans

[Hokulele]

Of course alien abduction is more likely. We know there are beings* capable of space travel. There's no evidence of souls or gods.


Which then makes me wonder why any such being with bother with abductions.

Unless this happens to be a case of out of Hell's fire and into a frying pan...

[Ralph]

I am not entirely sure you understand this bit of ... doctrine. Once you are saved you will not fall away. Everyone who does fall away was therefore never truly saved to begin with. ;)

Makes you wonder--just what exactly is involved to cross over that line from eternal torture to eternal bliss.

Salvation through faith & not works?..... One of the RR posters relates the story of one of her relatives being a selfish,miserable bitch her entire life---then repents ON HER DEATHBED---and is considered saved.

An entire lifetime of assholism wiped out just like that?

Did Joseph Goebbels- after murdering his children in the bunker-get struck with the reality of what he'd done & repent right before he took his own life? Is he sitting up in heaven eating popcorn & laughing at M. Ghandi as he roasts over a slow fire?

So kids get a pass up until they reach the "age of accountability"... loosely defined as being between 7-12 years old. Then--they become teenagers-all those hormones start kicking in-and 99% decide there's other ways of spending Friday evening than bible study or singing hymns with their parents. Now they're screwed again if something happens.

God's not mysterious...he's bat-guano loony.

[Alareth]

I wonder if space alien abduction is more likely...


Soooo ... alien abductees and missing persons cases with no clues are simply cases of advanced rapture syndrome?

[Roadtoad]

Soooo ... alien abductees and missing persons cases with no clues are simply cases of advanced rapture syndrome?

Nah. They're victims of excess gravitational pull from certain vortices on the Earth's surface. Basically, the Earth sucks.

[tsig]

Is there some sort of a time limit on the smiting? I am kinda busy this morning.

Nope, a smite in time saves nine.

[tsig]

Lower left corner. I don't think you'll get far with it; she's been doing this for ages.

One more chip off the rock of ages.

[Roadtoad]

One more chip off the rock of ages.

Sure, why not. In the meantime, watching porn might be a better way to spend time, rather than dealing with Kathy's drivel.

Hell, she hasn't been worth responding to since Wifey went brunette.

[tsig]

No question about that. She's hoping her daughters will endure seven years of sheer Hell?

"Hi, kids! I love you so much, I want you to endure seven years of Tribulation!" This is one sick woman.

I'll reiterate my question from earlier: What if anyone speaking of this is wrong? About any of it?

Oh, wait, that doesn't matter, right?

One of them complained that her unbelieving relatives were a real trial to her and did not know how much pain they were causing her.

[Roadtoad]

One of them complained that her unbelieving relatives were a real trial to her and did not know how much pain they were causing her.

Right. "It's all about MEEEEEE!"

Idiots.

[supercorgi]

Right. "It's all about MEEEEEE!"

Idiots.

Right RT. It does all seem to be about how I can't wait to be sucked up to heaven and sit in god's lap. Who cares about all of those sinners (including my family and other loved ones) who are roasting in hell. The glee with which some of these people anticipate the rapture is severely disturbing. (It's like Nah, Nah, I was right! Aren't you sorry that you didn't listen to me?") If this is truly what they believe, don't they have any empathy? The callousness of it all disgusts me.

[Roadtoad]

Right RT. It does all seem to be about how I can't wait to be sucked up to heaven and sit in god's lap. Who cares about all of those sinners (including my family and other loved ones) who are roasting in hell. The glee with which some of these people anticipate the rapture is severely disturbing. (It's like Nah, Nah, I was right! Aren't you sorry that you didn't listen to me?") If this is truly what they believe, don't they have any empathy? The callousness of it all disgusts me.

I knew there was a reason I liked you... :D

[Evolved Wookie]

Soooo ... advanced rapture syndrome?


It used to be called 'Premature Rapture' and up to 40% of Christians might suffer from it in their life-time. Happily, these days, there are clinical mitigations.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm a quarter Scots and, for three months every year, my favourite colour is tartan

I am one thirty second Scottish, so I honor that by spelling honour your way every so often, and by sipping Oban and Glen Morangie now and again as well.

I look awful in a kilt, truth be told.

DR

[six7s]

I look awful in a kilt, truth be told.Narcissism, much?








:p

[Roadtoad]

I am one thirty second Scottish, so I honor that by spelling honour your way every so often, and by sipping Oban and Glen Morangie now and again as well.

I look awful in a kilt, truth be told.

DR

I just plain look awful.

:jaw-dropp

[kurious_kathy]

Really ? Says who ?
Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0

[paximperium]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0
You may want to read a proper book since your "documented validation" is composed of completely false statements and semantic juggling. This is the best you can do?

Why don't you show the BEST(I want one, not ten or twenty) evidence for the existence of Jesus?

[Sun Countess]

Kathy, I've looked at Charlie Campbell's Always Be Ready site many times at your request. The guy is a complete idiot, and does not in any way represent an atheist or skeptical way of thinking, because he's never been an atheist or a skeptic. He's a life-long believer who got mad at god for awhile before he got over it and started kissing his butt again. That doesn't make him an atheist, just an angry believer. Campbell also seems to think most atheists are as stupid as he is, if he thinks he can sway anyone with his so-called arguments and evidence.

[Ducky]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0

Why should we bother? You've never read anything we've linked you to. You didn't even read books recommended to you. There is no good-faith assumption you'll bother to read our material, why should we read what you link? Do you think we'll hear or read something we don't already know or haven't heard before? I've yet to see one original argument from any believer. Ever.

[Ladewig]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0

No there is not "much documented to validate the Bible." At least there is not much documented at that website:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4674956

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

There is no shame in admitting that you are not the right person to try to convert us. Leave and send someone else or stay and open your mind. Anything else is pride on your part.

[slingblade]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that.

Oddly enough, Grimm's Fairy Tales validates Grimm's Fairy Tales.


I wonder if you can see any problem with "I know scripture is true, because scripture says scripture is true?"

No? Yeah, it was a lot to hope for...

[aggle-rithm]

I wonder if you can see any problem with "I know scripture is true, because scripture says scripture is true?"

No? Yeah, it was a lot to hope for...

It's worse than that; the part of scripture that says that was not considered scripture when it was written. It was simply a letter talking ABOUT scripture.

[Roadtoad]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0

And, as Ducky has pointed out, you are scarcely one to speak of this. When you lack the integrity to read the links provided by others, when you refuse to read the books that you have agreed to read, then make excuses for your deceit, why would we read your links?

[Ladewig]

And, as Ducky has pointed out, you are scarcely one to speak of this. When you lack the integrity to read the links provided by others, when you refuse to read the books that you have agreed to read, then make excuses for your deceit, why would we read your links?

I'm not yet convinced that she reads even her own links.

[Moochie]

I'm not yet convinced that she reads even her own links.


I'm not convinced she's even a "she." The writing style suggests an "it," in terms of responsiveness and other human signatures.


M.

[Ladewig]

I'm not convinced she's even a "she." The writing style suggests an "it," in terms of responsiveness and other human signatures.


M.

I thought programmers followed the nautical convention and used "she" as the personal pronoun of choice.
E.g. "Arrr, matey, she's a fine looking godbot you have there"

[Roadtoad]

I thought programmers followed the nautical convention and used "she" as the personal pronoun of choice.
E.g. "Arrr, matey, she's a fine looking godbot you have there"

Hey! No insulting boats on this board!

(Damn lubbers...)

[aggle-rithm]

I thought programmers followed the nautical convention and used "she" as the personal pronoun of choice.
E.g. "Arrr, matey, she's a fine looking godbot you have there"

Actually, they use male pronouns more often. Usually when referring to servers.

I use "it".

[six7s]

Actually, they use male pronouns more often. Usually when referring to servers.

I use "it".
<derail>

The Gender of a Computer

A language instructor was explaining to her class that in French, nouns unlike their English counterparts, are grammatically designated as masculine or feminine.

"House, in French, is feminine - la maison."
"Pencil, in French, is masculine - le crayon."

One puzzled student asked "What gender is computer?"

The teacher did not know, and the word wasn't in her French dictionary. So for fun she split the class into two groups appropriately enough, by gender and asked them to decide whether "computer" should be a masculine or feminine noun.

Both groups were required to give four reasons for their recommendation.

The men's group decided that computers should definitely be of the feminine gender (‘la computer’), because:
No one but their creator understands their internal logic
The native language they use to communicate with other computers is incomprehensible to everyone else
Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for possible later retrieval
As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending half your pay check on accessories for it
The women's group, however, concluded that computers should be masculine (‘le computer’) because: In order to get their attention, you have to turn them on
They have a lot of data but they are still clueless
They are supposed to help you solve problems, but half the time they ARE the problem
As soon as you commit to one, you realize that if you'd waited a little longer, you could have gotten a better model

</derail>

[kurious_kathy]

Unfortunately for us, you probably will. :rolleyes:

Seriously, Kathy, you actually are enjoying the thought that people you don't know will suffer through seven years of literal Hell on Earth. That marks you as one sick puppy.

You, madam, are welcome to your Apocalypse. The rest of us will work to prevent it, thank you, even as you do whatever labor you can to bring it to us.
RT it is God's story not mine. He is testing the hearts of man through all of this and I just pray he will help others to know him and be known by him. Jesus still is the great miracle worker, and the best miracle is salvation through a changed heart. When we receive Christ he gives us a new heart and life. Life in the Spirit is so much better than anything this world can offer, and I am rapture ready, "Are You?"

[GeeMack]

RT it is God's story not mine. He is testing the hearts of man through all of this and I just pray he will help others to know him and be known by him. Jesus still is the great miracle worker, and the best miracle is salvation through a changed heart. When we receive Christ he gives us a new heart and life. Life in the Spirit is so much better than anything this world can offer, and I am rapture ready, "Are You?"


Since the beginning of humanity there have been thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of gods. Because we have exactly as much evidence to support the existence of any one of them as any other, every god is as likely, or not, to be the one true god. So the odds are severely stacked against you. If you've made a bad choice of which entity to worship, you know, tens of thousands of wrong ones versus a single correct pick, instead of going to Heaven, you'll spend eternity suffering in Hell. Are you ready for that, too?

[MIKILLINI]

Scripture validates scripture but there is more evidence than even that. Have you even taken a look at some of the links I have referred others to?

There is much documented to validate the Bible. Here take a look http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=0

Instead of posting a link Kathy, give me an example of scripture validating scripture with documentation of the "evidence."

[Paulhoff]

RT it is God's story not mine.
No, it is yours KK, yours. It comes from yourself, that is why you know it so well and believe it to be true. It does not come from without, it only comes from within you brain. You just make it up to fit what you need.

Paul

:) :) :)

[dafydd]

Okay Hokulele in the church of Corinth there were some big issues that Paul needed to address as they were getting a bit out of sinc as to the Holy Spirits leading and teaching. The women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority(and we still do today) which is the hierarchy that God has put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women. We women can be deaconess's in a church but not a pastor as that is Gods way. What's important in Christianity is we learn to submit to the Lord and the way he ordaines things. The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.

Bollocks

[six7s]

... women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority(and we still do today) which is the hierarchy that God has put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women. IOW:

Earth grrrllz are easy

[dafydd]

I know the Bible is the inspired word of God, but the Quran most certainly is not!

Prove it.

[Paulhoff]

The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.
What a step-back for women that is. So you believe that lie, no wonder you believe all the other lies too.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Roadtoad]

RT it is God's story not mine. He is testing the hearts of man through all of this and I just pray he will help others to know him and be known by him. Jesus still is the great miracle worker, and the best miracle is salvation through a changed heart. When we receive Christ he gives us a new heart and life. Life in the Spirit is so much better than anything this world can offer, and I am rapture ready, "Are You?"

No, Kathy. You're not.

Again, you revert to form, (not that you or CD ever left.) Your continued obsession with the Rapture, the Tribulation, End Times, the Return of Jesus, demonstrates this. You repeat the same old line, time and again, thinking that if you repeat it enough, we'll quit asking for evidence, we'll quit asking for discussion, we'll quit asking you to engage your brain. (Isn't that what you meant when you said what you did to Hokulele?)

So, hopefully, for the very last time, I'll ask this of you. Failure to answer indicates bad faith, that you have no interest in participating. That you're merely here to spam.

What evidence do you provide that the Bible is True?

I'll start from the beginning: Considering the Bible itself says you shall not put the Lord your God to the test, what evidence is available which proves God's existence? Since I may not, according to the Bible, set up a challenge which would answer this question, what is there that you can provide which shows anyone making a reasonable request for physical evidence reveals the presence of a deity? How does it work? The request is an honest one, but you and your husband have repeatedly refused to answer.

You lie, Kathy. You have lied repeatedly. We have shown you your lies, and you have blown us off. You don't apologize for them, you don't change your ways, what evidence is there in your actions which shows the existence of a deity? I would put forth there is none. That, if anything, your actions show the absence of a deity.

I would also say your response to Hokulele is further evidence of this. If we expect changes in people's lives, would not the first act be to accept responsibility for our own? If women are "uppity," why wouldn't that be a good thing, since subservient women aren't accepting responsibility for their own actions? (You, by the way, are a prime example of this.)

The reality, Kathy, is that as you continue your prattle about the Rapture, you're using it as a means to avoid any responsibility to anyone else, including to your own family, and to you community at large. You have yet to answer what you plan on doing when Jesus once again fails to show up as scheduled, and you're still here, stuck on the same ball of mud as the rest of us. That, in and of itself, tells us you have nothing to offer.

I am now in a dispute with people who believe in much the same way you do. Supposedly, based on something Paul said, I'm not supposed to take them to court, even though I'm not a believer. In fact, I fully intend to do just that, if for no other reason than to clear my name from a DOT citation which is theirs, not mine, for their failure to maintain their equipment. They wanted me to pay for maintenance, even though the truck is not mine. They wanted me to take the hit on my driving record for their failures in their company, even though the company is not mine.

You, in a similar fashion, want other people to accept responsibility for your life, even though it is not ours. Seeing a pattern here?

No, Kathy, you're not "Rapture Ready." Even if there were a Rapture, you have yet to accept any responsibility for your own actions. Not worth the time.

[Roadtoad]

Of course, for all you UPPITY WOMEN...

oOCC1EKXRBc

[Ladewig]

Jesus still is the great miracle worker, and the best miracle is salvation through a changed heart.

No. It is not. The best miracle would be for everyone who prays in Jesus's name to be instantly cured
of cancer. That would be an impressive miracle that would lead billions to Christ.

[Hokulele]

Of course, for all you UPPITY WOMEN...


y2kEx5BLoC4

[slingblade]

What's important in Christianity is we learn to submit to the Lord and the way he ordaines things. The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.

The head of my household and spiritual leader of his family screwed a different woman almost every night of the 13-year marriage. He told me, afterwards, that he did.

The HoH and SLoF used alcohol, cocaine, and methamphetamine for most of the 13-year marriage.

The HoH and SLoF hit me hard enough to twice cause hairline fractures in my nose, and left numerous bruises on my body many times during that 13 years.

The HoH and SLoF controlled me with emotional abuse, mental abuse, and physical abuse for 13 years.

The HoH and SLoF hit me in the head with the bible when I confronted him with his abuse and infidelities, and he screamed at me to SUBMIT to his "authority" which, translated, meant "I can **** anyone I want, C-word, and you better not challenge me about it again!"

And me? I wondered for 13 years why his behavior was all right with God and other Christians.

Maybe you can explain why it was all right with your god for the HoH and SLoF to act that way to his wife, over whom he had dominion, eh?

I explain it thusly:

God doesn't exist, and so can't stop anything.
And I was a moron for taking it.
I got better.

[six7s]

I got better.You sure did!

:bigclap

Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4681715#post4681715)

Kia Kaha, slingblade!

[MIKILLINI]

God doesn't exist, and so can't stop anything.
And I was a moron for taking it.
I got better.

I second the nomination.

[Farencue]

Slingblade

I was beaten nearly every day of my life by the father of the household.
I was sexually abused by the father of the household's best friend from ages 6-9. My father used to drop me off at the single mens quarters where the abuser lived in a 3m x 3m room about once a week.

My family had no religion.

When I was 8 years old I used to take myself off to Sunday School every week because I was led to believe by people in my street, just like KK, that I had to pray to God and Jesus to be considered a good little girl. Obviously as a 6 year old I wasnt a good girl and thats why those men did bad things to me.
So there I was - a little girl fervently believing in the biggest fairy tale of all, that Jesus and God would save me. Boy did I pray for relief from my misery. I mean I was in hell before I even died. God and Jesus were obviously too busy to consider my request. I gave up around the age of 10 when I figured out all I had to do was survive until I was 16 years old and could get out.
Which I did. I am 40 now.

I won a bible for best attendance at Sunday School. No one ever asked me where my family was or why I was alone, I guess they were too busy counting the sheep. I still have that bible today to remind me that there are really whacked out people in this world - perpetrators of abuse and perpetrators of ********.

Rapture, Armageddon, Hell, Heaven, Paradise.
Make sure you choose wisely which way you are gonna go KK - you wouldnt wanna end up knocking at the wrong door now would you?

[slingblade]

Farencue, I'm so sorry for the little girl you were. I'm glad you survived and got out. I hope life has been better for you. I can tell a similar tale of childhood sexual abuse, except it was the fathers of my little friends. My own father, with whom I did not live, never hit me or hurt me. He didn't care enough about me to abuse me in person.

Thank you for telling your story, too. I've always thought that of all the horrible things out there in the world, a child being hurt should be the one thing an all-powerful god would want to stop. Free will or no free will, I'd think an all-powerful and loving god could find some way to see to it that little girls and boys don't have to endure such things. Or that the men and women who do these things could somehow be made to stop.

What kind of god creates beings that can even entertain such notions? Why aren't the safe-guards against that much, at least, built into us if we're designed? And if it comes down to the free will argument again, then why are we told to pray for anything? Prayers can't be answered, people can't be healed, or rescued, or stopped...because that all interferes with free will.

It just comes down to the fact that some people are garbage, and some people aren't, and most people act like a mix of the two, most of the time, and that, my friends, is life. No god-buddy to help you through any of it. Just us, each other.

I wish some folks would realize that people are all we have, and we need to be good to each other. No god is needed for that.

Farencue, have a long and sincere hug from me. Have as many as you like.
:hug5

[Farencue]

Thanks Slingblade, I gratefully accept the hug and offer you one in return.
I have a great life today and hope you do too, free from abuse, hate and prejudice.

I spend a lot of time pondering why there are so many religions, how can they all possibly be right? And why oh why are they all so self righteous and hateful towards other Christians and other religions like Islam? Why can you read the writings of so many people on recovery boards - abused by their own in the name of religion?
To me religion is the biggest con of all time, no matter which flavour. It is based only on fear.

Where I live at the moment I am sandwiched between 2 lots of Jehovah Witnesses and have heard about Armageddon. Since I told them Im an atheist, their tight, pursed lips and narrowed eyes silently speak volumes to me whenever I have the misfortune to be outside at the same time as them. I must say they do have exquisite gardens - obviously readying for the kingdom on earth. They do not speak to me AT ALL because I am ...whatever. They just send the rest of their congregation to my house instead to witness lol...I wont bore you with the suggestions I give them about what to do with all that literature they shove at you.

I thought I had found a great hairdresser (even though they take cash only) until they started taking out full page colour newspaper adverts about how Jesus is a pig etc...ah here we have the pretend Jews, the Messies, who know better than everyone else. They are new to this area, which happens to be full of Catholic Italian farmer families. Absolute salts of the earth who provide most of the food in this region. What a disgusting, despicable thing to do in the name of YHWH.
Interestingly, todays local paper had a letter of apology from the male pig hating hairdresser. He had to apologise for treating an autistic client badly in his salon!
The autistic person and their mother made a complaint to the anti discrimination board - I would love to know what was said to the customer, as the pig haters have started being more brazen with their preaching while customers are trapped in their salon.

Of course we have the Mormons popping in as well, I feel sorry for the children, being dragged around in the heat for hours, suffering in the name of whoever their skydaddy is. But of course the sheep hunters are banking on my concern for the children (getting water, offering them a place out of the heat for a while) stupidly mistaking humaneness for an interest in their message.

Can anyone tell me why religious people cant just live their beliefs, mind their own business, live and let live etc? Why do they have to spread the word?
Why is it that most religions are not evolved enough to have courage in their own convictions and let the rest of us get on with reality?
Hmm, courage - the opposite of fear.

[wendyinthewind]

where is the kurious one's preaching now?

[Roadtoad]

where is the kurious one's preaching now?

Wait.

[wendyinthewind]

You know, if you want to be a christian, that is fine with me but christian isn't going out and telling everyone how much of a christian you, it isn't badgering people that don't want to be bothered with superstition and out and out lies perpetrated for all these years, christian is how you act, not what you say.

if you are such a "christian", why not go out a help someone that may not ever be able to pay you back or donate money or time to homeless shelters without using your captive audience to boost your own ego by turning their life around by showing them the "way"? Don't you realize what a self indulgent act that is? or is it just me?

Instead, you spend time trying to convert people that do not want to be converted, that is not a martyr, that is just plain lazy. Go do some real work for your "God", he knows you are really not putting much effort out here, you know, he sees all!

[Farencue]

Yes, I am interested in KK's response. I would wager that I didnt truly believe, didnt give of myself fully, didnt pray hard enough or was asking the WRONG skydaddy for help. There seems to be a few to choose from. Im banking on asking the wrong skydaddy for help. Im sure KK's God would have helped me out if only I knew to ask that one.

The deception really gets to me. Another example: my son's school thought they would help the "poor kids" overseas by taking part in something called Operation Christmas Child years ago. My son spent all his money packing the shoebox with practical things for the underprivileged child who should have received a gift with no strings attached. He was so excited to help another child his age and for that child to know others in this world CARE. Its called HUMANITY and as Slingblade says, it is all we have: each other.

Uh uh not to be. This gig is run by an outfit called Samaritans Purse. They are not about giving badly needed things to underprivileged children like toothbrushes, soap, clothes, shoes etc...from one child to another to balance the equation between the haves and have nots.

The recipients are expected to sign up for Bible Study and are given literature
about God and Jesus. They are also told the gift is "from Jesus".
The gifts are not from Jesus, they are from humanitarians such as my son.
This organisation has been in trouble for preaching in countries who do not practice "Christianity" Only self righteous God botherers would have the audacity to believe children with their own religion could be easily bribed to become sheep.

I used to sponsor a child through World Vision but became suspicious of a few things. After doing some research, I was disappointed to find that yep another lot of Bible thumpers under the guise of "helping the unfortunate".

Now I donate to humanitarian groups only eg: a group of local women got together and organised free goods transport to Indonesia and Sri Lanka after the tsunami. They co ordinated donations of goods and oversaw the transport to these countries, flew there themselves at their own cost and unloaded the goods for distribution. The transport was paid for by a shipping company.
Not a whiff of religion involved, no ulterior motive except to help our fellow humans.

[wendyinthewind]

generosity and kindness without recognition, that is what giving is all about.

i am very sorry for your experiences but i am happy for your getting better!

[MIKILLINI]

Yes, I am interested in KK's response. I would wager that I didnt truly believe, didnt give of myself fully, didnt pray hard enough or was asking the WRONG skydaddy for help. There seems to be a few to choose from. Im banking on asking the wrong skydaddy for help. Im sure KK's God would have helped me out if only I knew to ask that one.

The deception really gets to me. Another example: my son's school thought they would help the "poor kids" overseas by taking part in something called Operation Christmas Child years ago. My son spent all his money packing the shoebox with practical things for the underprivileged child who should have received a gift with no strings attached. He was so excited to help another child his age and for that child to know others in this world CARE. Its called HUMANITY and as Slingblade says, it is all we have: each other.

Uh uh not to be. This gig is run by an outfit called Samaritans Purse. They are not about giving badly needed things to underprivileged children like toothbrushes, soap, clothes, shoes etc...from one child to another to balance the equation between the haves and have nots.

The recipients are expected to sign up for Bible Study and are given literature
about God and Jesus. They are also told the gift is "from Jesus".
The gifts are not from Jesus, they are from humanitarians such as my son.
This organisation has been in trouble for preaching in countries who do not practice "Christianity" Only self righteous God botherers would have the audacity to believe children with their own religion could be easily bribed to become sheep.

I used to sponsor a child through World Vision but became suspicious of a few things. After doing some research, I was disappointed to find that yep another lot of Bible thumpers under the guise of "helping the unfortunate".

Now I donate to humanitarian groups only eg: a group of local women got together and organised free goods transport to Indonesia and Sri Lanka after the tsunami. They co ordinated donations of goods and oversaw the transport to these countries, flew there themselves at their own cost and unloaded the goods for distribution. The transport was paid for by a shipping company.
Not a whiff of religion involved, no ulterior motive except to help our fellow humans.

A hug for you, Farencue and I admire your overcoming such a miserable childhood.

[Farencue]

Hi Wendy and Mikillini

I shared my story not for pity but to illustrate what a load of rubbish religion is. Thankyou for your well wishes, they are much appreciated.

I have my own family to care for and they are my No 1 priority, but in the meantime we donate what we can to humanitarian causes in the way of money and goods.
One day in the future, when my children dont need me as they do now, I will do all I can to provide shelter and hope for abused children here in Australia.

If I survived perhaps they will too.

[wendyinthewind]

christians could learn a thing or two from a lady like you!

[Kell]

where is the kurious one's preaching now?

Remission.

[slingblade]

Farencue, you have it right. Whatever the reason was that your prayers weren't answered with help from god, it was your fault. It's never god's fault, of course.

After reading your story, some (*cough, cough, Kathy*) people might say that your prayers were answered, in that you grew stronger and overcame your horrible past, and only with god's mysterious "help" could that have happened to make you the wonderful person you are today.

In other words: you're gonna get told some feel-good ************ that only makes the person saying it feel good.

[Farencue]

hopping frogs Slingblade, I never thought of that! God works in mysterious ways....

[pchams]

Kathy, one needs to open ones mind to be ever ready to accept truth (reality).

Charlie Campbell erroneously spills:

1. What evidence do you have that there is a God?”
There are only three options for the existence of the universe. One, that it has always been. Two, that it came into being by itself. Three, that it was created.
This is a false trichotomy. ;)
A. We don't know

2.“What evidence do you have that the Bible is actually true?”
If I had to narrow it down to a few evidences, I would probably say: fulfilled prophecies, archaeological discoveries, and the Bible’s amazing unity. The Bible, unlike any other religious book, has demonstrated itself to be the Word of God through its ability to rightly predict the future.
"Evidences"? What evidence? Where has it predicted the future, ever?

Uggg...I can't go on...just please answer the above question KKathy.

[Ralph]

I'd like to think that at least one RR member is reading this thread & becomes inspired to make the same choices that Slingblade & Farencue made.

There's a lot of similar stories to theirs over at RR----lots of unhappiness & depression--people struggling with life.

I can understand the appeal of fundamentalist xtianity to these people. Life is tough sometimes--problems mount up and you begin to feel overwhelmed & helpless as things just spiral down out of your control.

Along comes a promise that a loving being will fix all your problems...OR...real soon will be beaming you up to a magical happy place.

All that's required is you kiss some ass,vote republican, and none of that fagola stuff.

Change isn't easy. It takes courage to give up the familiar--even when what's "familiar" is very unpleasant.

I applaud both of you for realizing that jesus wasn't going to turn your abusive spouse/father into a swell guy. He wasn't going give you a winning lottery ticket and wasn't going to whisk you off to OZ...

You had to do those things yourself-and maybe with some help from fellow human beings.

Hats off to both of you..............

[Monster Machine]

Can anyone tell me why religious people cant just live their beliefs, mind their own business, live and let live etc? Why do they have to spread the word?
Why is it that most religions are not evolved enough to have courage in their own convictions and let the rest of us get on with reality?
Hmm, courage - the opposite of fear.

I find it funny how people, supposedly secure in their faith, get threatened by questions or other influences (Harry Potter... the new movie's out in July - can't wait for the BS to start). Is their faith so weak or their God so weak that they can't "weather the storm" so to speak.

If I can take anything away from my lurking activities here on the board, it's that the average professing christian doesn't really know a whole hell of a lot about how their faith is supposed to work.

Farencue - you're awesome!

Monster

[Farencue]

Along comes a promise that a loving being will fix all your problems...OR...real soon will be beaming you up to a magical happy place.

All that's required is you kiss some ass,vote republican, and none of that fagola stuff.


Ralph that is so funny what you wrote.
Someone on another thread here directed me to a "church" site called godhatesfags.com after a discussion on hate filled religion.

To be honest I was shocked, and they call themselves "Christians"? wtf?

Thanks Ralph & Monster, its so good to meet likeminded people!

[Alareth]

Ralph that is so funny what you wrote.
Someone on another thread here directed me to a "church" site called godhatesfags.com after a discussion on hate filled religion.

To be honest I was shocked, and they call themselves "Christians"? wtf?

Thanks Ralph & Monster, its so good to meet likeminded people!


Phelps and his clan are kinda special.

[six7s]

its so good to meet likeminded people!Welcome, Farencue!

I read your superb, honest and frank post earlier and couldn't reply without coming across as trite

Anyhoo...

I find its always great to 'meet' new people here when they are obviously intent on thinking about and discussing stuff that I find interesting

See you in the soup! :)

[Farencue]

or in hell six7's!!

But seriously, thankyou. I didnt want Slingblade to walk alone.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

I wonder what happens over there when someone over there hits post #666?
Probably the same thing that happens when they hit #616 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#616).

;)

[slingblade]

or in hell six7's!!

But seriously, thankyou. I didnt want Slingblade to walk alone.

That is so good of you, thank you. :)

[Moochie]

Hi Wendy and Mikillini

I shared my story not for pity but to illustrate what a load of rubbish religion is. Thankyou for your well wishes, they are much appreciated.

I have my own family to care for and they are my No 1 priority, but in the meantime we donate what we can to humanitarian causes in the way of money and goods.
One day in the future, when my children dont need me as they do now, I will do all I can to provide shelter and hope for abused children here in Australia.

If I survived perhaps they will too.


And I'm glad you live in Australia, too. :)


M.

[Moochie]

Kathy, one needs to open ones mind to be ever ready to accept truth (reality).

Charlie Campbell erroneously spills:

1. What evidence do you have that there is a God?”

This is a false trichotomy. ;)
A. We don't know

2.“What evidence do you have that the Bible is actually true?”

"Evidences"? What evidence? Where has it predicted the future, ever?

Uggg...I can't go on...just please answer the above question KKathy.


Charlie's ever-so-subtly beginning to metamorphose into that other notorious Charlie from the 60s, it seems to me.


M.

[Moochie]

I find it funny how people, supposedly secure in their faith, get threatened by questions or other influences (Harry Potter... the new movie's out in July - can't wait for the BS to start). Is their faith so weak or their God so weak that they can't "weather the storm" so to speak.

If I can take anything away from my lurking activities here on the board, it's that the average professing christian doesn't really know a whole hell of a lot about how their faith is supposed to work.

Farencue - you're awesome!

Monster

On behalf of everyone, a belated welcome to these proceedings.


M.

[Ralph]

Ralph that is so funny what you wrote.
Someone on another thread here directed me to a "church" site called godhatesfags.com after a discussion on hate filled religion.

To be honest I was shocked, and they call themselves "Christians"? wtf?

Thanks Ralph & Monster, its so good to meet likeminded people!

I'm sure having decided to run your own life rather leaving it up to jesus will
be viewed as "another one lost to Satan and his evil atheist minions".

The prevailing viewpoint seems to be that atheists are a rather evil & hatefull bunch(esp toward christians). After all--why would anyody bother behaving like a decent human being without the fear of hellfire hanging over them.

It's interesting that both the JREF & RR have threads on the current influenza issue.

99% of the JREF threads are either "hard" science concering the nature of influenza,viruses, and epidemics or the expected debate about just how severe it could turn out to be.

I haven't seen a single thread here from anybody--theist or atheist--that thinks this is a good thing.

When news of the flue outbreak was posted over at RR however--it seemed to have been met with much glee.

"Hey everybody--look at this---flue outbreak in Mexico. It could be bad---millions of deaths".

"Yee-Haw---allrighty now----pandemic--millions dead-- Folks--this is it. This is gonna be the big one. I can feel it in my bones. Pack your bags & buckle your seat belts--we're GOIN HOME!!!"


No thought at all about 20-30 million dead. No concern for all the suffering & misery that a genuinely bad influenza outbreak could cause. There was somebody over there worried about if he could take his pickup truck with him after he was raptured. (I'm not making this up).

Just-as Road Toad said- it's all "ME ME ME!!"

What a lovely group of people.................

[six7s]

On behalf of everyone, a belated welcome to these proceedings.


M.Thanks M!

Welcome, Monster!

[Ladewig]

When news of the flue outbreak was posted over at RR however--it seemed to have been met with much glee.

"Hey everybody--look at this---flue outbreak in Mexico. It could be bad---millions of deaths".

"Yee-Haw---allrighty now----pandemic--millions dead-- Folks--this is it. This is gonna be the big one. I can feel it in my bones. Pack your bags & buckle your seat belts--we're GOIN HOME!!!"


No thought at all about 20-30 million dead. No concern for all the suffering & misery that a genuinely bad influenza outbreak could cause. There was somebody over there worried about if he could take his pickup truck with him after he was raptured. (I'm not making this up).

Just-as Road Toad said- it's all "ME ME ME!!"

What a lovely group of people.................

Your claim sounded hard to believe so I poked around in the sticky Flu thread, and did find one person that closed his message with a cheering smiley. So bizarre. To be fair the number of people that described it as frightening far outnumbered the number of people who were buoyed by the outbreak.

I also found someone who washed her credit card in the dishwasher and this gem: "Imagine if it had started up a few weeks ago, when everyone was on spring break. I think God was merciful on his timing with this."

[Ralph]

Your claim sounded hard to believe so I poked around in the sticky Flu thread, and did find one person that closed his message with a cheering smiley. So bizarre. To be fair the number of people that described it as frightening far outnumbered the number of people who were buoyed by the outbreak.

I also found someone who washed her credit card in the dishwasher and this gem: "Imagine if it had started up a few weeks ago, when everyone was on spring break. I think God was merciful on his timing with this."

LOL.....no--I didn't mean to imply that everybody over there felt like that. I tried to find the thread I was referring to --couldn't but I'm sure it wasn't a sticky.

At any rate--this is more or less an ongoing thing over there. Anytime there's anything resembling a war or natural distaster in the world--the rapture index goes up and a fair number of them interpret that as "it's almost time" and get all excited about it. When things eventually settle down--you can almost sense the disappointment.

I wasn't making up the thing about the truck.

[kurious_kathy]

No, it is yours KK, yours. It comes from yourself, that is why you know it so well and believe it to be true. It does not come from without, it only comes from within you brain. You just make it up to fit what you need.

Paul

:) :) :)What are you talking about? God does not bow down to anyones wants. We either believe him and take him at his word or we don't. I believe the Bible and it is very clear that the return of Christ will be for him to come back and judge the world. Better to receive his forgiveness and avoid the white thrown judgement than not.

I love Jesus for the sacrifice he made to redeem the lost. I have a heart to know him, that's the difference between me and you. I love him because he first loved me.

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?

[Roadtoad]

What are you talking about? God does not bow down to anyones wants. We either believe him and take him at his word or we don't. I believe the Bible and it is very clear that the return of Christ will be for him to come back and judge the world. Beter to receive his forgiveness and avoid the white thrown than not.

I love Jesus for the sacrifice he made to redeem the lost. I have a heart to know him, that's the difference between me and you. I love him because he first loved me.

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?

Clearly quite a bit since you're contributing to it.

[Roadtoad]

Your claim sounded hard to believe so I poked around in the sticky Flu thread, and did find one person that closed his message with a cheering smiley. So bizarre. To be fair the number of people that described it as frightening far outnumbered the number of people who were buoyed by the outbreak.

I also found someone who washed her credit card in the dishwasher and this gem: "Imagine if it had started up a few weeks ago, when everyone was on spring break. I think God was merciful on his timing with this."

L-man, you might want to read Kathy's latest missive... :rolleyes:

[GeeMack]

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?


I still want to know if you're just as prepared to burn in Hell forever if your pick of which invisible monster to worship is off by one.

[Ladewig]

L-man, you might want to read Kathy's latest missive... :rolleyes:


Yes. It can be comforting to think of KK as a distant outlier on the religious spectrum, but I have looked at enough Gallup polls to know that she is part of a sizable community.

[Ladewig]

What are you talking about? God does not bow down to anyones wants. We either believe him and take him at his word or we don't. I believe the Bible and it is very clear that the return of Christ will be for him to come back and judge the world. Better to receive his forgiveness and avoid the white thrown judgement than not.

I love Jesus for the sacrifice he made to redeem the lost. I have a heart to know him, that's the difference between me and you. I love him because he first loved me.

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?



A thread has been started in your honor, KK. Have a look at the first post when you have a moment. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=142082

[Paulhoff]

What are you talking about? God does not bow down to anyones wants. We either believe him and take him at his word or we don't. I believe the Bible and it is very clear that the return of Christ will be for him to come back and judge the world. Better to receive his forgiveness and avoid the white thrown judgement than not.

I love Jesus for the sacrifice he made to redeem the lost. I have a heart to know him, that's the difference between me and you. I love him because he first loved me.

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?
There is no so-called god to bow down to anything. It only lives in you brain KK. And your Jesus is about 2,000 years late, I'm not about to forgive him for that.

Paul

:) :) :)

[aggle-rithm]

I believe the Bible and it is very clear that the return of Christ will be for him to come back and judge the world.

Do you believe the part that says this should have happened almost two thousand years ago?

ETA: Matthew 16:27-28.

[Moochie]

Yes. It can be comforting to think of KK as a distant outlier on the religious spectrum, but I have looked at enough Gallup polls to know that she is part of a sizable community.

Define "sizable." I think KK and CD and thinkers like them are a distinct minority. But if you're referring to fanaticism in general, then yes, I think fanatics are a sizable quanta. I hesitate to call them a community because they aren't. They're more likely the extremes of misfiring intellects of a range of communities, including yours and mine.


M.

[Ladewig]

Define "sizable." I think KK and CD and thinkers like them are a distinct minority. But if you're referring to fanaticism in general, then yes, I think fanatics are a sizable quanta. I hesitate to call them a community because they aren't. They're more likely the extremes of misfiring intellects of a range of communities, including yours and mine.


M.

Thirty percent of Americans believe that the Bible is the inerrant and literal Word of God.
They believe that the Earth and all life upon it is less than 10,000 years old.

[Monster Machine]

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?


You obviously are as clueless about your history as you are about your bible. This is UTOPIA compared to medieval times.


Simple question, Kathy:

What are you doing to change it besides crying wolf on a message board? Or do you genuinely believe you need to do nothing, that the lord will be here next Tuesday, say noon-ish?


My house needs a new roof. Should just abandon it and move somewhere else? By your logic, that would seem to be the right choice.

Kathy, I understand your belief and zealousness in "preaching the Good News!" But the more I read from you, the more I realize that you'll likely be in the pile of "depart from Me you worker of lawlessness, I never knew you."


Monster

[joobz]

And as for being rapture ready, I am praying "Come Lord" as all of this world is crying out for new life. How much more evil can this world stand?
Praying for the end of this world seems to be about the most evil thing I could think of anyone wishing for.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were a satanist.

[Lucian]

You obviously are as clueless about your history as you are about your bible. This is UTOPIA compared to medieval times.

<snip>

Monster

You know, the more I hear about the "end times," the more I think the world must have ended in the 14th century. That was a sucky century: beginning of the little ice age; catastrophic and weird weather; beaucoups natural disasters; wars; rumors of wars; more wars; Great Famine; and the Black Death: BEST WORST. PANDEMIC. EVER. (well, in recorded history, as far as I know).

Sure, no one got raptured because the Rapture hadn't been invented yet, but maybe the end came and nobody noticed. They just picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and got on with their (presumably) imaginary lives.

[Moochie]

Thirty percent of Americans believe that the Bible is the inerrant and literal Word of God.
They believe that the Earth and all life upon it is less than 10,000 years old.

Yes, apparently 30% of Americans said this in response to a question from a stranger. Who the feck knows what anyone actually believes?

I go on record here and say I believe the planet's in deep doo-doo (and having to use such childish euphemisms is part of the problem, IMO), and that I do not see anyone doing anything about it, except for publishing scholarly works that sell mainly to libraries and the education departments of some states.

As far as I can see, the general population doesn't have a clue.

It's a folie-a-everyone. We all support each other in our disbelief. Meanwhile, the Earth bleeds.


M.

[six7s]

I go on record here and say I believe the planet's in deep doo-doo The planet? Really?

Or do you mean certain orders / families / genera / species?

[kurious_kathy]

You obviously are as clueless about your history as you are about your bible. This is UTOPIA compared to medieval times.


Simple question, Kathy:

What are you doing to change it besides crying wolf on a message board? Or do you genuinely believe you need to do nothing, that the lord will be here next Tuesday, say noon-ish?


My house needs a new roof. Should just abandon it and move somewhere else? By your logic, that would seem to be the right choice.

Kathy, I understand your belief and zealousness in "preaching the Good News!" But the more I read from you, the more I realize that you'll likely be in the pile of "depart from Me you worker of lawlessness, I never knew you."


Monster

Are you judging me now? I would watch out for that if I were you as only God has the right to do that. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, this is why Jesus came to save us.

I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

P.S.Do you know who Joni Erikson' Tada is? She is such an inspiration to me. I'm not sure if she's done books on the rapture, but I love some of the others she has done like,"Heaven Our Real Home" and "When God Weeps."

[Roadtoad]

Are you judging me now? I would watch out for that if I were you as only God has the right to do that. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, this is why Jesus came to save us.

You presume to judge us. "Physician, heal thyself." Seems to me you have made a lot of claims you have yet to even attempt to provide evidence for.

I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

Once more, we're back to the appealing to emotion crap. THIS IS WHY YOU ARE VIEWED AS A LIAR AND A TROLL!

P.S.Do you know who Joni Erikson' Tada is? She is such an inspiration to me. I'm not sure if she's done books on the rapture, but I love some of the others she has done like,"Heaven Our Real Home" and "When God Weeps."

BEFORE you even THINK of invoking Joni Tada's name, (and SPELL IT RIGHT FOR ONCE!), you had BETTER start looking at what SHE did with HER life, and how YOU are spending YOURS! If Joni Eareckson Tada rolled into the room right now, I'd stand up, and I'd be the first in line to shake her hand.

If YOU walked in, I'd spit.

[AWPrime]

The more fanatical the believer the more doubt they have in their faith. They scream out their faith in a continuous battle against the remaining logic in their own minds.

They would follow the most wicked people on this earth to keep their cursed faith.

[Piscivore]

How much more evil can this world stand?

Wait until my kids are adults. Heh :D

[themagicwand]

What I want to know is this: when the day of Rapture arrives and all the good Christian folk fly away up to heaven, will they wave down to us or will they act all self-important and try to pretend that they can't see us on the ground waving up to them? A bit like the people sitting in first class on trains - they never wave back either.

[Nogbad]

You know, the more I hear about the "end times," the more I think the world must have ended in the 14th century. That was a sucky century: beginning of the little ice age; catastrophic and weird weather; beaucoups natural disasters; wars; rumors of wars; more wars; Great Famine; and the Black Death: BEST WORST. PANDEMIC. EVER. (well, in recorded history, as far as I know).

Sure, no one got raptured because the Rapture hadn't been invented yet, but maybe the end came and nobody noticed. They just picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and got on with their (presumably) imaginary lives.

You missed the ergot on the rye caused by the damp weather - so they were all out of their trees while the bad **** was happening too.

[GeeMack]

I've posed my question twice now. Here's the third go-around, kurious_kathy. You claim to be ready for the rapture and your trip to blissful forever-ness. Are you equally prepared to spend the rest of eternity burning in Hell given the likelihood that you've chosen the wrong idol?

Are you too scared to actually consider a reply? Could it be you're just another ignorant Christian? Perhaps you simply overlooked the question. So what do you say, kurious_kathy? Ready for a one-way ticket to Hell?

[Roadtoad]

I've posed my question twice now. Here's the third go-around, kurious_kathy. You claim to be ready for the rapture and your trip to blissful forever-ness. Are you equally prepared to spend the rest of eternity burning in Hell given the likelihood that you've chosen the wrong idol?

Are you too scared to actually consider a reply? Could it be you're just another ignorant Christian? Perhaps you simply overlooked the question. So what do you say, kurious_kathy? Ready for a one-way ticket to Hell?

She won't. Kathy is unable to admit she's wrong. She lies.

[Piscivore]

What I want to know is this: when the day of Rapture arrives and all the good Christian folk fly away up to heaven, will they wave down to us or will they act all self-important and try to pretend that they can't see us on the ground waving up to them? A bit like the people sitting in first class on trains - they never wave back either.

No, but you can get them to notice you if your "child" accidentally chucks "their" juice box into the compartment...

Just sayin'

If I seriously believed that Christians were going to float up in the sky and leave the rest to suffer, I'd be investing in large quantities of harpoon guns. Come one, come all, everyone gets a turn.

[Ladewig]

Are you judging me now?

I'll judge you, too. After reading your arrogant nonsense (such as your claiming that suicidal depression is not a mental illness but rather is Satan cousing trouble in someones' life), I judge you to be a hindrance to today's society. Your nineteenth century opinions about how to treat illnesses makes it more difficult for people ashamed of their illness to step forward and seek treatment.

I would watch out for that if I were you...

And what, pray tell, will your God do to me because of my judging you?


... as only God has the right to do that.

Au contraire , KK. Everyone in this world has the right (perhaps even the duty) to call BS when it is presented in a public forum.

Once again, we see why you are the very worst person to proselytize on this board. Seriously, either leave and send someone who knows what fallacies are or stay and open your mind. Your conversion fantasies are a waste of your time and will not win you brownie points with God.

[Roadtoad]

No, but you can get them to notice you if your "child" accidentally chucks "their" juice box into the compartment...

Just sayin'

If I seriously believed that Christians were going to float up in the sky and leave the rest to suffer, I'd be investing in large quantities of harpoon guns. Come one, come all, everyone gets a turn.

Why waste the ammo?

If they're right, there would be no way we could hit them, and any suffering we endured, they'd be excluded.

Of course, we'd also be proven right, that the god they followed was an outright bastard. They'd be welcome to him.

[Farencue]

I can imagine KK getting raptured up to the clouds and then all of a sudden being plonked hard on her butt back on Earth.
Then a booming voice comes out of the swirling mist:

"KK you have been rejected due to your uselessness - you failed to convert those sceptics and atheists. Now get out there and try harder you lazy piece of $%^@"

[tsig]

What's the difference between being raptured and dying? In both cases you ain't coming back.

[Monster Machine]

Are you judging me now? I would watch out for that if I were you as only God has the right to do that. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, this is why Jesus came to save us.

Shall I point out your own judgments, now, Kathy? Perhaps you are now getting a taste of your own karma.


I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

I am not sure what the point of your preaching is, Kathy. According to you, God has to draw us to him supernaturally. God does not need you. God does not need anyone to soapbox on his behalf. Is your God so weak he cannot do anything on his own?

P.S.Do you know who Joni Erikson' Tada is? She is such an inspiration to me. I'm not sure if she's done books on the rapture, but I love some of the others she has done like,"Heaven Our Real Home" and "When God Weeps."

If this is an attempt at drawing a comparison between yourself and Joni, you have more gall than I ever could have believed. Your attempt at a comparison only highlights your self centered attitude.


Back on topic regarding Rapture Ready:

You are in sin and not following your God's words. You are fixated on such simple flag waving doctrine and end times myth. Do you propose to know the mind of God like the others on Rapture Ready? Do you not read your bible?

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The point is not to be ready when, but to be ready whenever. You already have your bags packed. THAT is why you are being judged by me.

Matthew 25:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


I see nothing to suggest soapboxing in this list from the bible, Kathy. Think about it as you recover...

Monster

[MIKILLINI]

Are you judging me now? I would watch out for that if I were you as only God has the right to do that. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, this is why Jesus came to save us.

I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

P.S.Do you know who Joni Erikson' Tada is? She is such an inspiration to me. I'm not sure if she's done books on the rapture, but I love some of the others she has done like,"Heaven Our Real Home" and "When God Weeps."

Are you familiar with the term "broken record?" Obviously, You don't think for yourself; Just rewind the godbot tape and play...Again. And again. Rinse, repeat, over and over ad nauseam.
Do you know Bart Ehrman's God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question — Why We Suffer? Of course you do! This "depressed" you.

You go ahead first and read that all the way through, then maybe I'll consider reading anything you suggest.

[boojum]

Are you judging me now? I would watch out for that if I were you as only God has the right to do that.

She says, judgmentally. You do realize that the Biblical injunction against judging others means nothing at all to atheists, don't you?

[wendyinthewind]

Perhaps the same demon that causes suicidal depression has caused your illness and surgery will not help? Could it be that you have been possessed? :eek:

(it is all that prayer asking for his spirit to descend upon you, never know what you're going to invite!)

[LisaLynn]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this or not, but I'd like to share an experience I had about a year and a half ago at the Rapture Ready forum.

I was raised in a fundamentalist church and scared to death by all of the imagery and events that were constantly being preached about the rapture. I had horrible nightmares into my late teens and adulthood about these things. When I got to college I was relieved to see that not everyone believed such things and I took some religion courses and learned a few things I had never been taught before (like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't actually write the books they were named for). It was nice to be around some adults who were not living in constant fear and desperation over literal interpretations of the Bible. I remained a Christian, though, even though I had serious doubts.

Around 2007 I started seeing a lot of things popping up on the web about atheism and I looked into it a little bit, but decided that I couldn't imagine myself just not believing in God, nor did I ever want to give up my belief in God. I thought that atheists just didn't understand the Bible and that's why they were atheists. The doubts persisted though, and led to bigger doubts. I didn't attend a church because of a traumatic thing that happened to me with a minister when I was a teenager, but I did start reading some Christian forums. I thought I could find the answer to my doubts there.

So, I went to some Christian forums and started to share some of my doubts and didn't get any answers. No one was mean, they just told me to pray about it and said they'd pray for me, which I thought was nice, but didn't answer my questions. A lot of my questions had to do with the Bible and the rapture and things I had been told about both while I was attending the fundy church growing up. The forums I attempted to get answers from mostly didn't believe in the rapture, so I went seeking one that did. I found Rapture Ready. At this point my questions and doubts were ALL I thought about day and night and it was driving me crazy to not have answers. I was consumed by my emotional state over this.

I was happy at first because I thought I had found a group of Christians who would understand my concerns and help me through my faith crisis and who understood what I had been taught growing up. I mean, seriously, if I had told a lot of Christians some of the bizarre things I had been taught as truth growing up they would have looked at me like I had 3 heads.

Anyway, I made an account and introduced myself, very excited about joining a group of like minded people who understood me and had probably had doubts themselves at some point. I expressed in my introduction that I was having doubts and had so many questions and was having a crisis in my faith. Boy, did I get a big surprise. I was immediately only allowed to post in one specific part of the board where there were atheists. I was not an atheist at the time, but when I asked why I had been put there and not allowed to post anywhere else, I was told it was because I had said I was an atheist in my introduction post. I said that I was not an atheist, couldn't see myself ever being one either, I just had doubts and was looking for help. That didn't seem to matter, no one believed me. I was completely puzzled by this reaction.

I started to explain my situation and asked some of the questions I had and I was told, in a very cold and unfriendly way to 'READ THE BIBLE IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS!' or to 'Read the homepage'. Well, I had read the Bible, I just didn't understand a lot of the stuff I read. When I stated that and started to ask specific questions about things like how on earth could the US be in biblical prophecy when it isn't mentioned in the Bible, I was again called an atheist, told I was only trying to make people there doubt their faith, and then I was called a troll and yelled at. All of this from supposed Christians whom I thought would just give me the answers I needed to rebuild my faith. Then they banned me for no apparent reason. I was completely hurt and torn down inside from this experience. It took me awhile to get over it.

After that I just started doing Google searches on specific things I had questions on and started finding the answers, not on Christian websites, but on atheist ones. I started looking into specific things like how the Bible was put together, lack of archeological evidence for biblical stories, etc. I met a guy online who was an atheist, didn't judge me for having fundamentalist beliefs and started a friendship with him. He showed me dozens of places on the web to find the truth behind what I was searching for. I cried for months because I found out that a lot of the things I had always thought were true, just simply weren't. It was like waking up one morning and finding out you were on a different planet and the one you had always lived on didn't exist.

I spent whole days doing nothing but reading and I found myself slowly letting go of everything I had believed in before. I now consider myself a weak atheist and I'm happier than I've ever been. If you haven't been through it, I don't think you can truly know what it's like to get a good nights sleep without dreaming about nuclear war and the end times events that were drilled into me growing up. I'm a much calmer person now, I've discovered a whole world of knowledge that I had no idea existed before, and I read voraciously to make up for everything I missed earlier in life.

In retrospect, I'm thankful for the hateful, mean spirited way I was treated at Rapture Ready. Had they embraced me and actually helped me, I'd have likely been over there today instead of here. I'd also likely have never known 90% of what I've learned about science, archeology, and history. There's no going back now and I'm thankful everyday that I was banned from that place and that I went to seek the truth on my own and for the friend I met online who pointed me in a much better direction than where I was headed.

I know this is a long winded post, and like I said maybe it isn't appropriate for this thread. If it isn't, I'm sorry. I just needed to tell my story and I've never really told it before.

Thanks for reading.

[Chaos]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this or not, but I'd like to share an experience I had about a year and a half ago at the Rapture Ready forum.

*snip*

I know this is a long winded post, and like I said maybe it isn't appropriate for this thread. If it isn't, I'm sorry. I just needed to tell my story and I've never really told it before.

Thanks for reading.

Don´t worry, it was very appropriate. And I think you´ll find that plenty of people here went through something fairly similar - most of us weren´t born all godless and evil, you see.

Welcome, by the way, and I hope you´ll enjoy it here. You may not find all the answers you seek here, but you´ll learn something, I can guarantee that.

[CrikeyBobs]

Hi Lisa (or is it Lynn?). Welcome to the JREF forums. I found your post quite moving. To be raised with so much fear in your life is difficult to comprehend, and all in the name of worshipping a divine being. To me this sounds like ritualized abuse. I am very glad indeed that you have managed to move away from that life and that things are much calmer for you (not that the real world doesn't have its share of "tribulations").

Based on what you have said, I have to wonder if it is sheer terror that drives some fundamentalists to evangelise so relentlessly, petrified in case they are found wanting and so condemned to an eternity of unmitigated horror. Maybe I should temper my judgement of them.

[Moochie]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this or not, but I'd like to share an experience I had about a year and a half ago at the Rapture Ready forum.



<snipped for brevity>

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the forum, LisaLynn, and thank you for a very good post.


M.

[Roadtoad]

Hi Lisa (or is it Lynn?). Welcome to the JREF forums. I found your post quite moving. To be raised with so much fear in your life is difficult to comprehend, and all in the name of worshipping a divine being. To me this sounds like ritualized abuse. I am very glad indeed that you have managed to move away from that life and that things are much calmer for you (not that the real world doesn't have its share of "tribulations").

Based on what you have said, I have to wonder if it is sheer terror that drives some fundamentalists to evangelise so relentlessly, petrified in case they are found wanting and so condemned to an eternity of unmitigated horror. Maybe I should temper my judgement of them.

Maybe, maybe not.

When you have someone like LisaLynn who's been the victim of the terror, that's one thing. But when you're dealing with someone like Kurious Kathy, who is deliberately inflicting the harm, even though she has been told time and again that she's doing harm, I'd say it's time for the gloves to come off and ass-whuppin' to commence.

[CrikeyBobs]

Perhaps the same demon that causes suicidal depression has caused your illness and surgery will not help? Could it be that you have been possessed? :eek:

(it is all that prayer asking for his spirit to descend upon you, never know what you're going to invite!)

That's an interesting thought. Perhaps Satan (though most probably one of his apprentices, or perhaps an intern or exchange student) is working through her in order to present such a completely absurd image of Creation that we mock and ridicule it and continue with our heathen lives smugly confident that we are making the right choice.

[CrikeyBobs]

I'd say it's time for the gloves to come off and ass-whuppin' to commence.

Have at it, sir! :D

[Moochie]

Have at it, sir! :D


No. I'm positively sure that Kathy can be a friend indeed.

If we are true to ourselves, we will extend the hand of friendship to all, regardless of what pigeonholes we've placed anyone in.

Kathy, I don't believe any of what you've been saying here, but I'm happy to be your friend, no strings attached. Same goes for your husband.

ETA: I say the above in the recognition that anger is generally about "I," and that there would be no "I" without a "we."

No offense to anyone. I understand some things more than I did yesterday.


M.

[MIKILLINI]

.

I was raised in a fundamentalist church and scared to death by all of the imagery and events that were constantly being preached about the rapture.
<Snip> A great and honest post.

Thanks for reading.

There are many ways to control people through religion, and in your case, the ones used the most are fear and guilt.

But at least you have discovered that preying on people's emotions is a way to make them behave like sheep.
You now use the ability to think for yourself instead of being manipulated. Welcome to the light of independent thought and the JREF forum, Lisa!

[Ralph]

What I want to know is this: when the day of Rapture arrives and all the good Christian folk fly away up to heaven, will they wave down to us or will they act all self-important and try to pretend that they can't see us on the ground waving up to them? A bit like the people sitting in first class on trains - they never wave back either.

This seems to be a fairly common topic over there. Not so much concern about what happens to truly evil people (like atheists,liberals,homos,catholics,mormons,evilutio nists,buddhists,etc etc) but over people they know & love.

Friends-bothers-sisters-parents---maybe even their own children. There's a certain amount of guilt involved here---a feeling of "can we really enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing that someone that was so dear to us----is spending the week in a vat of boiling excrement".

Not to worry though....there seemsto be several interesting "solutions" to this bit of unpleasantness.

As always--a bible quote works best. "There are no tears in heaven" is often brought up.....something jesus said. It's not really explained---but it's usually interpretted as "don't worry--god'll fix things so you're just happy and not bothered by this.

Sounds like god's going to perform some lobotomys or possibly be administering large doses of
anti-psychotics.

Another theory is once you get to heaven--you'll simply understand "divine justice" and it'll seem perfectly reasonable why your 17 year old son who was killed in a car accident and maybe just wasn't around long enough to get "saved" is roasting in hell while you're living the good life.

My own favorite though was the "Newhart Dream Sequence" explanation. This involves the fact that everybody you knew in your life that's not going to heaven.....never really existed. They were just placedthere by god as test for those that god had chosen to be saved.

If guilt & fear were money--these people would all be billionaires...............

[Foster Zygote]

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for sharing, and welcome.

I can relate to your experiences. I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. My parents listened to James Dobson on the radio and watched The 700 Club. I was told that the theory of evolution by natural selection was a Satanic lie. And even though I knew that I was supposed to feel excited about it, I was frightened of the prospect of the Rapture, especially considering that I was told that it would almost certainly happen in my lifetime, probably in a mere few years. For one thing I worried that I would be too sinful to pass muster. "You were left behind because you wouldn't stop touching yourself you filthy little sinner" Jesus would say. And anyway, I was horrified at the prospect that so many of my friends and relatives, whom I knew to be good, caring people, would be judged unworthy of God's mercy and sent to Hell for all eternity.

But I had always been interested in science. My enthusiasm for astronomy led me to read Carl Sagan's Cosmos. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to read his other books. I happened upon Broca's Brain and was suddenly immersed in the simple beauty of science. The wonders revealed by science were so much more enthralling than the "wonders" that religion had indoctrinated me to believe. The universe suddenly became mysterious beyond my comprehension. I saw that my religious teachers, well meaning as they were, relied on pretend certainty in an imaginary universe. But I came to see that uncertainty was not something to fear and mask, but rather something to revel in. No matter how wonderful the discoveries that are made, there will still be greater questions for us to seek the answers to.

And you'll get over your fear. Soon you'll realize that you're still the same person and that the things that you really love and care about are the same as ever. It's much more refreshing to see the world as something we should work to better, rather than something wicked that needs to be destroyed. And you'll be free to accept people whom you would otherwise be expected to be critical of.

[LisaLynn]

Thanks Chaos, Crikey,Moochie, and everyone for the warm welcome !

My family usually calls me Lisa, but either is fine.:)

[LisaLynn]

This seems to be a fairly common topic over there. Not so much concern about what happens to truly evil people (like atheists,liberals,homos,catholics,mormons,evilutio nists,buddhists,etc etc) but over people they know & love.

Friends-bothers-sisters-parents---maybe even their own children. There's a certain amount of guilt involved here---a feeling of "can we really enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing that someone that was so dear to us----is spending the week in a vat of boiling excrement".

Not to worry though....there seemsto be several interesting "solutions" to this bit of unpleasantness.

As always--a bible quote works best. "There are no tears in heaven" is often brought up.....something jesus said. It's not really explained---but it's usually interpretted as "don't worry--god'll fix things so you're just happy and not bothered by this.

Sounds like god's going to perform some lobotomys or possibly be administering large doses of
anti-psychotics.

Another theory is once you get to heaven--you'll simply understand "divine justice" and it'll seem perfectly reasonable why your 17 year old son who was killed in a car accident and maybe just wasn't around long enough to get "saved" is roasting in hell while you're living the good life.

My own favorite though was the "Newhart Dream Sequence" explanation. This involves the fact that everybody you knew in your life that's not going to heaven.....never really existed. They were just placedthere by god as test for those that god had chosen to be saved.

If guilt & fear were money--these people would all be billionaires...............


This was something that used to bother me a LOT. I could not imagine my husband or ANY human being literally burning forever. I could not imagine a being that would do this. As an adult I looked into some of the more liberal interpretations of the Bible and was told about the mistranslation of the word 'sheol' and 'gheanna' in the Bible. I think this makes some Christians feel better because they think 'Oh, my loved ones won't literally burn forever, they will just be dead or separated from God!' It didn't make me feel much better though, because if I were going to live forever, I wouldn't want my loved ones to be anywhere except near me. But that fear...that fear of a literal burning hell takes along time to get out of your psyche.

[LisaLynn]

Thanks for sharing, and welcome.

I can relate to your experiences. I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. My parents listened to James Dobson on the radio and watched The 700 Club. I was told that the theory of evolution by natural selection was a Satanic lie. And even though I knew that I was supposed to feel excited about it, I was frightened of the prospect of the Rapture, especially considering that I was told that it would almost certainly happen in my lifetime, probably in a mere few years. For one thing I worried that I would be too sinful to pass muster. "You were left behind because you wouldn't stop touching yourself you filthy little sinner" Jesus would say. And anyway, I was horrified at the prospect that so many of my friends and relatives, whom I knew to be good, caring people, would be judged unworthy of God's mercy and sent to Hell for all eternity.

But I had always been interested in science. My enthusiasm for astronomy led me to read Carl Sagan's Cosmos. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to read his other books. I happened upon Broca's Brain and was suddenly immersed in the simple beauty of science. The wonders revealed by science were so much more enthralling than the "wonders" that religion had indoctrinated me to believe. The universe suddenly became mysterious beyond my comprehension. I saw that my religious teachers, well meaning as they were, relied on pretend certainty in an imaginary universe. But I came to see that uncertainty was not something to fear and mask, but rather something to revel in. No matter how wonderful the discoveries that are made, there will still be greater questions for us to seek the answers to.

And you'll get over your fear. Soon you'll realize that you're still the same person and that the things that you really love and care about are the same as ever. It's much more refreshing to see the world as something we should work to better, rather than something wicked that needs to be destroyed. And you'll be free to accept people whom you would otherwise be expected to be critical of.

Foster,

I haven't read Cosmos yet, but I have it. Demon Haunted World helped me tremendously. It was one of the books recommended by my atheist friend who helped me deconvert. I have whole sections of it underlined and I go back and read them from time to time. I find it rather comforting at times.

The fear is something I still have trouble with. For example, I mentioned the dreams about nuclear war that I used to have growing up. Because I went through a time when I was deconverting where I read about the supposed rapture and things related to it, it stirred up some of the old fears. I was sitting on the sofa with my husband a couple of weeks ago and we heard some really loud explosions outside. I jumped up and ran to the balcony and guess what my first fear was? Not anything rational, of course, but something rapture related. The fear only lasted maybe 5 seconds, and it was just a knee jerk reaction, but then I got angry with the people that taught me that stuff when I was growing up. There is no reason to scare human beings like that and scar them for life. (Turned out to be fireworks, by the way.)

My mother, who is elderly now, said to me the other day when I brought up evolution that she thinks it's a 'fib'. She knows we have differing opinions on things and we've come to the point where we just don't talk about religion anymore. I tried to show her some stuff I found about the rapture, Darby, etc., but she is so ingrained in her beliefs that even though she doesn't go to church anymore, she still believes the rapture will happen. I don't push it with her because of her age. I think if she found out it wasn't true that it was devastate her mentally and that would affect her health. Anyway, I told her that evolution is not a 'fib' and she seemed open to hearing more about it. I'll address it with her sometime when we are face to face, but in a very gentle and teaching way.

The part about accepting people used to bother me a lot too. I grew up in the South, but in a diverse area. I knew a lot of gay people growing up and I've never harbored an ill thought towards anyone of a different religion or race or towards anyone who was gay. It makes me sick that some people do.

Thanks so much for your reply!:)

[slingblade]

Lisa, we were separated at birth or something. :D Welcome to the forums.

[Paulhoff]

Here you go Lisa, Richard Feynman, a scientist that I have watched and enjoyed for years. He says a lot of how I think about things.

zeCHiUe1et0

Paul

:) :) :)

[LisaLynn]

Thanks Slingblade! I think I'm going to like it here.

Paul, that was really good. I can now add Richard Feynman to the list of scientists I want to know more about. Thanks!

[hamelekim]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

First off, if you read the Bible you would know what those who are saved will not spend eternity in Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth.

Everyone who is saved will be resurrected and reign with Christ for eternity.

Hence the idea that we will be in heaven and can communicate with people in Hell is false.

Secondly, Hell will be cast into the lake of fire, so it won't be where it is now and any existing communication, if there is any would be cut off.

Thirdly, Everyone has a choice to make in this life. You can choose life, or your can choose death. If you don't like the idea of your unsaved family burning in hell then you better work on saving them, rather than hating God.

We all have free will and it is a personal choice that everyone needs to make to server God. You cannot blame God because he gave everyone a choice. The blame lies solely with the person.

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.

We don't know the whole picture, but given what God has done, and what he went through on the cross, it must be that things are being done this way for a very good reason.

Lastly, there is a passage in the Old Testament that makes reference to the old heaven and earth being forgotten. This leads me to believe that we will forget about our family and friends who were lost. If this bothers someone then by all means they can go to hell to be with them, but that is short sighted and foolish thinking.

[Hokulele]

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?


If you think that god is so good, why would he allow sin in the first place?

[six7s]

First off, if you read the Bible you would know what those who are saved will not spend eternity in Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth.If you skip that work of fiction, you can forget the whole stupid idea :)

[ completely unsubstantiated woo snipped ]
If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.
How sad that you are oblivious to the ridiculous irony of the delusion-fueled stupidity of your so-called arguments

We don't know the whole picture, but given what God has done, and what he went through on the cross, it must be that things are being done this way for a very good reason.Or... more likely... that you and your fellow woosters are crowing nonsense from dawn til dusk


Lastly, there is a passage in the Old Testament that makes reference to the old heaven and earth being forgotten. This leads me to believe that we will forget about our family and friends who were lost. If this bothers someone then by all means they can go to hell to be with them, but that is short sighted and foolish thinking.Spouting such circular reasoning is how fools disappear up their fundamental orifice

[hamelekim]

If you think that god is so good, why would he allow sin in the first place?

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

[hamelekim]

If you skip that work of fiction, you can forget the whole stupid idea :)


How sad that you are oblivious to the ridiculous irony of the delusion-fueled stupidity of your so-called arguments

Or... more likely... that you and your fellow woosters are crowing nonsense from dawn til dusk


Spouting such circular reasoning is how fools disappear up their fundamental orifice

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

[Hokulele]

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.


Which is more evidence why god isn't good. Seems silly to cover up mistakes rather than never make them in the first place.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil.


It only seems fair to make this assumption since you seem to assume god must be good for creating good.

If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?


I honestly believe I am morally superior to god. But then again, I feel the same way towards all fictional characters.

[hamelekim]

Which is more evidence why god isn't good. Seems silly to cover up mistakes rather than never make them in the first place.

It only seems fair to make this assumption since you seem to assume god must be good for creating good.

I honestly believe I am morally superior to god. But then again, I feel the same way towards all fictional characters.

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

[Hokulele]

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.


You are basing this judgement on an Internet post regarding fictional characters? Talk about an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.


Really? Then why is he described as having changes of heart, or repenting of his decisions throughout the Old Testament. Sounds like mistakes to me.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.


Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

[Mr Clingford]

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.
While I myself agree with the first assertion, I don't think that God necessarily planned everything as that leaves no room for creation to grow and also, surely, goes against the idea of free will?

[Mr Clingford]

Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself... Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.

[hamelekim]

You are basing this judgement on an Internet post regarding fictional characters? Talk about an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

Really? Then why is he described as having changes of heart, or repenting of his decisions throughout the Old Testament. Sounds like mistakes to me.

Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

If he is the beginning and end, and knows everything that everyone will ever do then he has to know what is going to happen, unless he willingly chooses to limit his view of the future in certain regards.

He might do this in order to give us true free will. Otherwise the very act of creation is setting into motion specific events that will create an outcome that he knows will occur.

I don't think there is enough information given in the Bible, at least from what I have read to specifically answer this question.

It's also possible that he knows what is going to happen but is still repentant that things had to be the way they are.

Human beings are made to worship. We choose to worship many things, from nature to people to gods. We all get a certain way when around celebrities or people we look up to who are famous.

take that feeling and multiply it by infinity when in the presence of God. I think that God deserves worship. It is our choice whether we want to worship him, but we all worship something, whether you want to admit it or not.

I wouldn't say that God has an unnaturally high opinion of himself, after all, he created all of existence, what has humanity done of late to merit worship?

[hamelekim]

While I myself agree with the first assertion, I don't think that God necessarily planned everything as that leaves no room for creation to grow and also, surely, goes against the idea of free will?

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.

[hamelekim]

Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.

The Bible specifically says,

Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I think that says it all. We won't be spending eternity floating on clouds and playing harps, nor will we be stuck in heaven without physical bodies. The Bible is very clear that we will be physical and in the physical universe.

[Mr Clingford]

Do you use modern, up-to-date versions of the Bible, as they are easier to understand and are more accurate?

I think I secretly worship Carmen Electra.

You are right, with regard to 1 Corinthians 15 and the end of Revelation, that the afterlife not disembodied souls floating around. Someone here on JREF pointed out that the New Jerusalem in Revelation sounds suspiciously like the Borg Cube....

[Hokulele]

Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.


I like your argument better than hamelekim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".

If he is the beginning and end, and knows everything that everyone will ever do then he has to know what is going to happen, unless he willingly chooses to limit his view of the future in certain regards.

He might do this in order to give us true free will. Otherwise the very act of creation is setting into motion specific events that will create an outcome that he knows will occur.

I don't think there is enough information given in the Bible, at least from what I have read to specifically answer this question.

It's also possible that he knows what is going to happen but is still repentant that things had to be the way they are.


Which is a bit odd, since he is constantly meddling with things over fairly trivial issues. Either way, it now sounds like you are arguing against an omnipotent god.

Human beings are made to worship. We choose to worship many things, from nature to people to gods. We all get a certain way when around celebrities or people we look up to who are famous.


Ick, no. People are conditioned to worship, not made. Admiration is certainly not the same thing as worship.

take that feeling and multiply it by infinity when in the presence of God. I think that God deserves worship. It is our choice whether we want to worship him, but we all worship something, whether you want to admit it or not.


Not really. I do not think that belief is a conscious choice. It is impossible to worship something I do not believe to exist. Hence, my lack of worship isn't a conscious choice.

I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.

I wouldn't say that God has an unnaturally high opinion of himself, after all, he created all of existence, what has humanity done of late to merit worship?


Created god.

[six7s]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.This is forums.randi.org:
http://forums.randi.org/images/header/jrefheadertext.gif

Please note the byline

If you want to promote your beliefs without substantiating them, you are in the wrong place

[hamelekim]

Do you use modern, up-to-date versions of the Bible, as they are easier to understand and are more accurate?

I think I secretly worship Carmen Electra.

You are right, with regard to 1 Corinthians 15 and the end of Revelation, that the afterlife not disembodied souls floating around. Someone here on JREF pointed out that the New Jerusalem in Revelation sounds suspiciously like the Borg Cube....

I enjoy the poetry of the King James version, but I do find it difficult to understand sometimes. Of course some of the modern translations are really bastardizations of the original meaning, so I tend to stick with the KJ version and muddle through the difficult language.

I've actually heard an argument by an author that new Jerusalem is actually a giant pyramid. It's a rather interesting argument, although I don't remember who the author was.

[Mr Clingford]

I like your argument better than hamelkim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".


I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.Come on, you're ignoring Carmen Electra!

Seriously, I think worshipping involves ideas of being caught up in the flabbergasting amazingness of something, only more so.

[hamelekim]

This is forums.randi.org:
http://forums.randi.org/images/header/jrefheadertext.gif

Please note the byline

If you want to promote your beliefs without substantiating them, you are in the wrong place

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

[Hokulele]

Come on, you're ignoring Carmen Electra!


Meh. Now if you had said Colin Firth...

Seriously, I think worshipping involves ideas of being caught up in the flabbergasting amazingness of something, only more so.


If you define worshipping that way, then sure, there are plenty of things I have seen worth worshipping. In fact, everything is flabbergastingly amazing. Even ants, or solar panels, or poop. The main problem I have with most common uses of "worship" is that it implies that most stuff isn't flabbergastingly amazing. After all, very few people claim to worship solar panels. Or poop.

[Mr Clingford]

I enjoy the poetry of the King James version, but I do find it difficult to understand sometimes. Of course some of the modern translations are really bastardizations of the original meaning, so I tend to stick with the KJ version and muddle through the difficult language.But now we benefit from almost 400 years of discoveries of new manuscripts so modern versions are more accurate.

I've actually heard an argument by an author that new Jerusalem is actually a giant pyramid. It's a rather interesting argument, although I don't remember who the author was.Aha, so the Israelites built the pyramids after all! Revelation 22 has all the imagery; interestingly, the main street is paved with gold.

[six7s]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.This is absolute bollocks, and you know it

Stop dodging and lying for your woo and at least try to have an honest discussion

well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.
In the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything - belief implies unthinking acceptance of nebulous concepts

ETA
As you seem taken with quotes on fools...
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1



The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

[Mashuna]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

The Bible says that the fool hath said in his heart that circular reasoning is convincing. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at yourself.

[hamelekim]

I like your argument better than hamelekim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".

Depends on what your definition of worship is.

Which is a bit odd, since he is constantly meddling with things over fairly trivial issues. Either way, it now sounds like you are arguing against an omnipotent god.

Nope, I'm not. I'm just speculating on possibilities. After all God limited himself when he came down in the flesh. Jesus said that only the father knows when the Son will return. Jesus choose not to know the time when he was on earth.

This leads me to believe that God can choose to not know things if he wants.


Ick, no. People are conditioned to worship, not made. Admiration is certainly not the same thing as worship.


What proof do you have that people are conditioned to worship vs made that way?

Obviously people have a need that is filled by worshiping others, be it personal heroes, celebrities, etc... I don't think they are conditioned by society to do so. I know that I don't worship any human, although I look up to some people. But even I get a strange feeling of awe when I see a celebrity in person. It's an odd feeling and it has nothing to do with any social conditioning.

I'm sure there is likely a scientific paper somewhere on the subject.


Not really. I do not think that belief is a conscious choice. It is impossible to worship something I do not believe to exist. Hence, my lack of worship isn't a conscious choice.

You choose not to believe. Playing with words will not make you correct. You made a conscious choice not to believe in God and therefore choose not to worship God.

I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.

What does worship involve? Are you arguing that you are not devoted to anything? I am not talking about conscious worship of some thing, like prayers.

Anything that you spend a great deal of time and energy doing can be seen as worship.



Created god.

[Mr Clingford]

Meh. Now if you had said Colin Firth...
Point taken - even for a hetero like me I can see the attraction.


If you define worshipping that way, then sure, there are plenty of things I have seen worth worshipping. In fact, everything is flabbergastingly amazing. Even ants, or solar panels, or poop. The main problem I have with most common uses of "worship" is that implies that most stuff isn't flabbergastingly amazing. After all, very few people claim to worship solar panels. Or poop.Thinking about it, I find the meaning of worship as 'paying homage, due respect' to a higher authority doesn't work well for me, and I even like our Queen! There is the feeling of 'I'm not bowing to someone else, why should I, they don't deserve it'. This would be especially strong if you find some people's conception of God to be morally despicable.

The world around us is truly amazing but I was using it as an analogy, really, and you know it!

[hamelekim]

But now we benefit from almost 400 years of discoveries of new manuscripts so modern versions are more accurate.

Aha, so the Israelites built the pyramids after all! Revelation 22 has all the imagery; interestingly, the main street is paved with gold.

Or are they? The Devil tries to confuse believers, and modifying the Bible would be a very good way to do this. If these manuscripts go against something already in the Bible I would be suspicious of it.

[hamelekim]

The Bible says that the fool hath said in his heart that circular reasoning is convincing. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at yourself.

It's not circular reasoning to say that you are a fool for believing that there is no God.

It is self evident that there was a creator. The statistical probabilities for the various laws of physics are so staggering to begin with that alone should make you question the idea that there is no God.

It's more comforting to believe there isn't a God than to have to come to the conclusion that there is, and that your behavior has consequences.

[Hokulele]

What proof do you have that people are conditioned to worship vs made that way?


The wide variety of things/concepts people worship, the variety in the amount of worship generated (including none at all), and the variety in ways of expressing that worship. If people were made to worship, you would think they would be a little more consistent about it.

Obviously people have a need that is filled by worshiping others, be it personal heroes, celebrities, etc... I don't think they are conditioned by society to do so. I know that I don't worship any human, although I look up to some people. But even I get a strange feeling of awe when I see a celebrity in person. It's an odd feeling and it has nothing to do with any social conditioning.


Sure it is, not all cultures have an emphasis on the cult of personality. In fact, the manner in which you describe your "awe" at seeing a celebrity demonstrates how easy it is to cultivate such a feeling.

You choose not to believe. Playing with words will not make you correct. You made a conscious choice not to believe in God and therefore choose not to worship God.


I no more chose not to believe in god than I chose not to like eating bananas.

What does worship involve? Are you arguing that you are not devoted to anything? I am not talking about conscious worship of some thing, like prayers.

Anything that you spend a great deal of time and energy doing can be seen as worship.


Really? So I worship sleeping? Cooking dinner? Odd, but if that's the way you want to define it...

By the way, Paul Tillich tackled this much more elegantly and logically years ago.

[Mr Clingford]

Or are they? The Devil tries to confuse believers, and modifying the Bible would be a very good way to do this. If these manuscripts go against something already in the Bible I would be suspicious of it.What do you mean by 'already in the Bible'? The original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic? That which is found in the Codex Sinaiticus? It's great that we nicked that Bible from that monastery because it is in the British Library so I showed it to my partner last year. The Bible is rather a complicated thing, though, consisting of translations of various documents, with differing Xtianities differing on which books should be in it.

[hamelekim]

This is absolute bollocks, and you know it

Stop dodging and lying for your woo and at least try to have an honest discussion

Look at it this way. Jesus did all sorts of miracles and people still wouldn't follow him. Go all the way back to the OT and the Jewish people. Various leaders performed miracles from God yet the people still continued to ignore God.

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.

I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering. That is as close as one can get to scientifically putting into question atheism.

In the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything - belief implies unthinking acceptance of nebulous concepts

Please stop playing word games. Everyone has beliefs. Are you an economic conservative or liberal? Do you support unions or do you not? If you are truly a thinker than you should have worked out already what works and does not work economically and socially.

In the end you have beliefs that are not based on reason and logic, but on feelings. I think it's something that too many skeptics ignore. You aren't robots, you are human beings and for all your talk of reason and logic you are tied to your emotions and feelings just like everyone else.

ETA
As you seem taken with quotes on fools...
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1


Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)


So what does this say about militant atheists like dawkins and dennet?

You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity.

[Hokulele]

Point taken - even for a hetero like me I can see the attraction.


I will say that even a hetero like me can understand why many men feel the same towards Carmen.

Thinking about it, I find the meaning of worship as 'paying homage, due respect' to a higher authority doesn't work well for me, and I even like our Queen! There is the feeling of 'I'm not bowing to someone else, why should I, they don't deserve it'. This would be especially strong if you find some people's conception of God to be morally despicable.


Agreed. However, I usually operate under the assumption that everyone deserves respect until they fail to retain it, rather than assuming no one deserves respect until they earn it. Life is less complicated that way.

The world around us is truly amazing but I was using it as an analogy, really, and you know it!


Yes, I do know that it was an analogy, but my main point was the entire concept of a god of creation requiring worship is setting up an hierarchy of values that has disturbing implications. Why not worship everything?

[hamelekim]

The wide variety of things/concepts people worship, the variety in the amount of worship generated (including none at all), and the variety in ways of expressing that worship. If people were made to worship, you would think they would be a little more consistent about it.

Why do they need to be consistent, whatever that means, in the way they worship? The fact that they all worship is what matters, how they do it matters little.


Sure it is, not all cultures have an emphasis on the cult of personality. In fact, the manner in which you describe your "awe" at seeing a celebrity demonstrates how easy it is to cultivate such a feeling.




I no more chose not to believe in god than I chose not to like eating bananas.

No, you choose to not believe in God through reasoning. You don't choose to dislike bananas at first, it's whatever your genetics has given you in terms of taste buds.

However, you can be made to like thinks you dislike if you eat them enough.

You lack of belief in God isn't some natural genetic trait, it's a willful choice of reasoning.


Really? So I worship sleeping? Cooking dinner? Odd, but if that's the way you want to define it...

Yes actually, you can be said to worship those things.

By the way, Paul Tillich tackled this much more elegantly and logically years ago.
I don't see how this is meaningful to the discussion, other than as veiled personal attack.

But you wouldn't do that because your a logical reasoning human being. Not filled with emotion and lack of reason.

[Hokulele]

Why do they need to be consistent, whatever that means, in the way they worship? The fact that they all worship is what matters, how they do it matters little.


Let's try an analogy here. Cooking is known in all cultures. Were people made to cook? I would argue they aren't. People need to eat (although I would state that they evolved with this need, they weren't made with it), but that doesn't require cooking of the food. For various health and taste reasons, cooking became popular and was disseminated to future generations. I can see why cooking is beneficial to human existence, and yet, it isn't a necessary facet of human existence.

Similarly, I can see why worship would be beneficial to a social animal. That doesn't mean it is a necessary facet of such social animals.

No, you choose to not believe in God through reasoning. You don't choose to dislike bananas at first, it's whatever your genetics has given you in terms of taste buds.


There is quite a bit of evidence that religion may have a physical element. (Look up neurotheology.) In which case, it is quite possible that my disbelief in god is more similar to my dislike of bananas than you will ever admit.

However, you can be made to like thinks you dislike if you eat them enough.


Which isn't a choice to like something, but a learned behavior. And no, eating bananas enough would make me ill, it would not make me like them.

You lack of belief in God isn't some natural genetic trait, it's a willful choice of reasoning.


How do you know this?

Yes actually, you can be said to worship those things.


Ok. I guess we are operating under a very different set of definitions then.

I don't see how this is meaningful to the discussion, other than as veiled personal attack.

But you wouldn't do that because your a logical reasoning human being. Not filled with emotion and lack of reason.


Personal attack? Not in the least. I enjoyed Tillich's Dynamics of Faith when I first read it many years ago, and I enjoyed it almost as much the last time I re-read it. He makes a much better argument for your concept of worship than you are. I would recommend reading it.

And the accusation of a personal attack sounds a bit hypocritical coming from someone who has already suggested I see a psychologist in this very thread.

[Mr Clingford]

I will say that even a hetero like me can understand why many men feel the same towards Carmen.




Agreed. However, I usually operate under the assumption that everyone deserves respect until they fail to retain it, rather than assuming no one deserves respect until they earn it. Life is less complicated that way.




Yes, I do know that it was an analogy, but my main point was the entire concept of a god of creation requiring worship is setting up an hierarchy of values that has disturbing implications. Why not worship everything?
Good point with the second para - it is a good default.

I see it as the strength of one's response that comes naturally; one will be in awe (especially of Redwoods - cf avatar) of nature, but as God is the Platonic Form of all, one will naturally feel most awe with God.

Now I'm off to church, so I wonder how well worship will come to me this morning. Of course, one might say that something as amazing as the ultimate Platonic Form, God, deserves God in that way.

[slingblade]

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.

Well, see, now here's the problem with everything you've been posting.

You have just had to make excuses for why certain things about god don't really work, especially if other postulates about god are also true.

You don't seem to realize you could accept this as clear evidence that, at the very least, some of the notions within the God Idea simply don't add up. Instead, you make up a reason to fit the disparate notions and then weasel a bit by saying you don't know if it's true.

Realistically? You don't know if any of it's true. And yet you feel confident enough, somehow, that you try to scare us with it, with dire warnings of the rude awakenings we're going to someday have.

You call "worship me or I'll torture you for eternity" a choice. Kind of like "Tell me I'm good-looking or I'll cut your kid's throat" is a choice, yeah? Only worse, with that whole "eternity" thing going on.

Yet you say everything is part of God's plan, so really, if I don't believe in god, then...well, that's just part of his plan, yeah? I mean, who knows? If I did start believing in him again, it might screw everything up so bad that God might...I dunno, have to go kill a bunch of rhinos or a Scientologist to make it all balance out again.

You know, I think maybe you better use your free will to decide to stop lecturing all of us, lest one of us change his or her mind, and you muck up God's plan for us all. Don't you?

[six7s]

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.Although this inane banter might pass for discussion in your deluded world, it is really, really boring...

Face it: you don't have any proof that would convince anyone capable of thinking

Please stop playing word games. Everyone has beliefs.At least try to read what I wrote rather than what you want/need to see

I said "in the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything"

Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God.FAIL

Again, stop trying to twist things to suit your perverted agenda

I am not 'reasoning that there is no God'

Instead, I contend that:
it is reasonable to think that all of the evidence for gods is bunk
the benefits of belief in gods are negligible

You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity.I doubt you could recognise sanity if it jumped up and bit your arse

[AWPrime]

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.Even the iron chariots?

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.How can any desicion not be gods will as it was planned by him?

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.What kind a pathetic god needs worship?

[six7s]

Even the iron chariots?

How can any desicion not be gods will as it was planned by him?

What kind a pathetic god needs worship?For one, see the jealous, paranoid, petty, spiteful, nasty, god of the Judeao Christian whackjobs:

www.biblegateway.com Exodus 20:5 (King James Version)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:5;&version=9;)5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[Kernel Hapablap]

This thread is so far off the Original Post it's not even funny.

Look at it this way. Jesus did all sorts of miracles and people still wouldn't follow him. Go all the way back to the OT and the Jewish people. Various leaders performed miracles from God yet the people still continued to ignore God.

You are assuming that those miracles that Jesus did actually happened. If you want to be a critical thinker, try avoiding unsubstantiated claims.


"Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof."

You do not have undeniable proof, so you cannot make this claim. You cannot presume to know what people will or will not accept. Science has a way of changing its tune when the evidence presents itself, even if it is against the consensus. A recent example is the paradigm shift to the understanding that ulcers are caused by bacteria.

"I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering. That is as close as one can get to scientifically putting into question atheism. "

First of all, you do not have enough scientific knowledge to make such a claim. It's possible that there is only one possible configuration for said constants. Secondly, string theory posits that there are millions upon millions of possible universes. Maybe they all exist, and most of them are empty of life. We just happen to be one that's not.

"In the end you have beliefs that are not based on reason and logic, but on feelings. I think it's something that too many skeptics ignore. You aren't robots, you are human beings and for all your talk of reason and logic you are tied to your emotions and feelings just like everyone else."

This is very true. There is nothing wrong with making emotional decisions. This is not the same as accepting God on faith. Skeptics and critical thinkers allow for examination of said emotional decisions, and the willingness to admit they are wrong in the face of contradictory evidence.

"Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God."

Or maybe the people who wrote the bible are trying to get you to avoid listening to the wise men, so you will continue to follow like sheep to the slaughter.

"So what does this say about militant atheists like dawkins and dennet?"

They are much, much smarter than you.

"You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity."

Of course everything is in doubt, except our own existence. There is no proof of an empirical world beyond our minds, philosophically speaking. However, if we allow for the single assumption that there is a "real" world, and a "real" universe, remarkable laws and logic can be found therein. Hundreds of years of simple observation and experimentation have led to incredible, almost magical discoveries and inventions. I'm sure if you showed your computer the the the Jews of the OT, they would think it from God.

[Lord Emsworth]

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.

To me this sounds like:
"God is so beyond any of our comprehension, and especially beyond yours ..."

In any case, what is so beyond our comprehension? A string of letters?

[Lord Emsworth]

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.

Obviously true.

After all, that proof would be for something that is beyond our comprehension. So far beyond our comprehension in fact, that we wouldn't know that proof if we saw it.

I wonder if we even could conclude that anybody who claims some sort of understanding must be wrong.

I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering.

Not to talk about the probability that "God" is exactly in such a way that it would make all those universal constants so that they in turn would allow for whatever. "Staggering" doesn't even come close.

[Monster Machine]

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me, does it?

Monster

[Ladewig]

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

I, personally, don't think God is evil because He allows suffering. I think He is evil because he prescribes an eternal punishment for a finite crime. Furthermore, His list of crimes includes activities that harm no others and includes thought crimes.

As for why He would "come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity," my response is so what. You say it as if it were some kind of great sacrifice for an omnipotent, eternal being to spend a three-day weekend in hell; it's not.

[Ladewig]

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.


You forgot the other part. The part where God says the fact that I am giving you this specific choice is proof positive that I love you beyond all understanding.

[GeeMack]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs [...]


Now you're beginning to understand. Keep at it and you may eventually realize why clear headed, rational people think it's ridiculous to hold beliefs which are impossible to substantiate.

[Foster Zygote]

Demon Haunted World helped me tremendously.

Demon Haunted World is one of my favorites. I also recommend The Varieties of Scientific Experience. It's a transcript from a series of lectures Sagan gave at the University of Glasgow.

And where in the South did you grow up? My wife and I grew up near Chicago but we've lived near Greenville, SC for the past thirteen years.

[Foster Zygote]

First off, if you read the Bible...

What if I read the Bhagavad Gita, Koran, or Dianetics?

[joobz]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.You say this, but then you say god's effect is indistinguishable from statistical noise..

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Do you think it foolish to use statistically reliable evidence to form conclusions? Would you prefer medicine to take things on faith?

[tsig]

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

Without a doubt for I, tsig, do punish the guilty and not the innocent. And I have never tortured and killed my own son because someone else offended me.

[JetLeg]

I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?



There you go, an explanation why KK is here.

Trolling for Jesus.

[tsig]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

Could you put a bit more relish on that gloat?

[tsig]

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

Yes just what is the point of creating people to worship you? Sounds like god has a bit of a self-image problem because those who are confident do not need constant reinforcement by anyone let alone a whole universe.

[LisaLynn]

Demon Haunted World is one of my favorites. I also recommend The Varieties of Scientific Experience. It's a transcript from a series of lectures Sagan gave at the University of Glasgow.

And where in the South did you grow up? My wife and I grew up near Chicago but we've lived near Greenville, SC for the past thirteen years.

I grew up near Winston-Salem, NC. How do you like Greenville? I'm in the Southwest now and I hate it. I can't wait to move back east, but the economy is bad in NC. There is a talk of a move to Maryland or Philly sometime in the next year or so. I'm not big on Philly, but the Baltimore area would be nice.

I also have Varieties, but it's still on the 'to be read' list. I've returned to college at the age of 40, so the free time I used to use to read is now used to study. What's really fantastic, though, is that in an upcoming science class I have to take, evolution is the primary focus of the whole course. I picked the best professor at the college and I'm looking forward to getting a formal education about evolution in the Fall.

[Sun Countess]

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?
That's a pretty big IF statement (if he created everything that exists), but it's still not too hard to consider myself morally superior to someone who kills as many babies as this god dude has. I don't know quite how many died at the first passover, but at last count, he's still killing close to 40,000 every day.

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.
Which god are you referring to here? There have been thousands. Are you a fool for not believing in thousands of gods? Will you be getting a rude awakening? Are you as afraid as I am right now?

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

So he is still killing babies on purpose through disease and starvation in the third world, and giving cancer to babies and children everywhere. Don't forget that tsunami a few years ago, which was certainly a big surprise and which he did on purpose. I guess I'm too morally inferior to understand his version of love and wisdom.

Thank goodness he's just the latest fiction in a long line of fictions that I still can't believe anybody takes seriously.

[tsig]

If he is the beginning and end, and knows everything that everyone will ever do then he has to know what is going to happen, unless he willingly chooses to limit his view of the future in certain regards.

He might do this in order to give us true free will. Otherwise the very act of creation is setting into motion specific events that will create an outcome that he knows will occur.

I don't think there is enough information given in the Bible, at least from what I have read to specifically answer this question.

It's also possible that he knows what is going to happen but is still repentant that things had to be the way they are.

Human beings are made to worship. We choose to worship many things, from nature to people to gods. We all get a certain way when around celebrities or people we look up to who are famous.

take that feeling and multiply it by infinity when in the presence of God. I think that God deserves worship. It is our choice whether we want to worship him, but we all worship something, whether you want to admit it or not.

I wouldn't say that God has an unnaturally high opinion of himself, after all, he created all of existence, what has humanity done of late to merit worship?

We changed it by defying god thereby creating this world. You should be on your knees to Eve because if she didn't eat the apple you wouldn't be here.

Eve was the first true human because she was the first to act human.

[tsig]

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.

You are making god to act like a six year old peeking thru his fingers.

[tsig]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

Actually no it isn't what god said. It's what you typed and then posted here at JREF. Take responsibility for your own actions and don't try to palm them off on god.

[Sun Countess]

You choose not to believe. Playing with words will not make you correct. You made a conscious choice not to believe in God and therefore choose not to worship God.
You do understand that not everyone is brought up to believe in the same god you believe in, right? I suppose since I grew up in society, I had an inkling of this god dude - not learned at home - and I had no more reason to believe in him than I did to believe in the ancient gods I learned about in mythology class at school. Did I make a conscious choice to not believe in the powers of Zeus and Thor? They were presented to me as fictional creations, and Yahweh was presented the same way. Do I choose not to believe in Harry Potter?

Do you believe in Harry Potter and if not, why do you make that conscious choice not to believe in him or worship him?


O/T to Hokulele: I've often said that if I had to pick a fictional character to worship and a fictional realm to spend my eternity, I'd be at Pemberley with Mr. Darcy/Colin Firth.

[wendyinthewind]

This is going to be my sig line whenever i have enough posts!

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

[hamelekim]

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me, does it?

Monster

You will not download music or movies online or you will spend the rest of your life in Jail. How are the laws of many better than those of God?

The point is, God cannot abide by Sin. When Jesus died on the cross he was completely and totally rejected by God. Having been with God the father always it was extremely painful for Jesus.

God wants your love willingly, but there are consequences for behavior, just like there are consequences for raping and murdering people.

You may not view your behavior as on the level of rape and murder, and worth eternity in hell, but then a psychopath doesn't see his behavior as immoral either.

The Bible teaches that we are all corrupted with sin, so for the sinners, or psychopaths to be deciding what is right or wrong, and what is a choice is rather foolish don't you think?

Some day you will realize the truth, everyone will because we will all have to stand before God and be accountable for how we have lived our lives.

[hamelekim]

Actually no it isn't what god said. It's what you typed and then posted here at JREF. Take responsibility for your own actions and don't try to palm them off on god.

Actually it is what God said. Secondly I don't palm my actions off on anyone. I called him a fool because that is what the Bible says.

[Hokulele]

You will not download music or movies online or you will spend the rest of your life in Jail. How are the laws of many better than those of God?


The rest of your life in jail? Hyperbole much?

[hamelekim]

That's a pretty big IF statement (if he created everything that exists), but it's still not too hard to consider myself morally superior to someone who kills as many babies as this god dude has. I don't know quite how many died at the first passover, but at last count, he's still killing close to 40,000 every day.

Again you have this myopic viewpoint of the world. Every child that is under the age of accountability is in heaven when they die. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the lord.

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child.


Which god are you referring to here? There have been thousands. Are you a fool for not believing in thousands of gods? Will you be getting a rude awakening? Are you as afraid as I am right now?


The Christian God of course. If you actually read the Bible you would realize that Christianity is unique among other religions and that Bible Prophecy is very specific about the signs of the last days.

Name any other religion that has had as many prophecies comes true as the Bible has? Every single prophecy in the Bible has come true or will come true in the future.


So he is still killing babies on purpose through disease and starvation in the third world, and giving cancer to babies and children everywhere. Don't forget that tsunami a few years ago, which was certainly a big surprise and which he did on purpose. I guess I'm too morally inferior to understand his version of love and wisdom.

Again, you are looking through a very narrow viewpoint. Children who die in this world are in heaven.

Secondly, this world is about suffering. God suffered on the cross, and suffering teaches us lessons that we wouldn't learn otherwise, which is likely why we are living in the world as it is today.


Thank goodness he's just the latest fiction in a long line of fictions that I still can't believe anybody takes seriously.

I'm afraid you're wrong. He is very real and you choose to ignore him because you don't like the concept of the Christian God for whatever reasons you have.

[hamelekim]

The rest of your life in jail? Hyperbole much?

If the recording companies had their way, yes.

The point is, humanity has come up with all sorts of laws, most of which benefit only a few rich people who control society through government.

God's laws are all just and righteous and yet we ignore those laws and come up with our own selfish laws that benefit few and cause conflict and criminalize people.

There are laws put into place in India that criminalize people who try to pick specific plants, because corporations patented the genes of those plants to make pills for people to take.

If that isn't an immoral law then I don't know what is.

[Ladewig]

The Bible teaches that we are all corrupted with sin, so for the sinners, or psychopaths to be deciding what is right or wrong, and what is a choice is rather foolish don't you think?



I do not think it is so foolish to let the "sinners" decide what is right and wrong, after all we decided that slavery was wrong despite God's never having defined slavery as a sin. We decided that rape is always wrong despite the qualifications that God put on it.

As for calling us psychopaths, you may find the definition applies to the God of the Bible just as easily. After sending Moses on a mission critical to God's plan, God stops him on the road and tries to kill him.

[Hokulele]

If the recording companies had their way, yes.


Do you have any evidence of that?

The point is, humanity has come up with all sorts of laws, most of which benefit only a few rich people who control society through government.


No, the point is that society has developed laws that have some basis in justice, "let the punishment fit the crime". Even if the recording industry really wanted people put away for life for intellectual property theft (which I greatly doubt), society does not let them do so.

Your god, on the other hand, has no apparent concept of justice.

God's laws are all just and righteous and yet we ignore those laws and come up with our own selfish laws that benefit few and cause conflict and criminalize people.


Which laws? The ones from Leviticus and Deuteronomy? The ones described in the canonic Gospels? Paul's epistles? Many of them are horribly unjust and the punishments listed are cruel. There is a very good reason most of them are ignored by modern society.

There are laws put into place in India that criminalize people who try to pick specific plants, because corporations patented the genes of those plants to make pills for people to take.

If that isn't an immoral law then I don't know what is.


Putting homosexuals to death based solely on who they are is immoral. Telling women they cannot hold positions of authority based solely on who they are is immoral. Telling people what they are and are not allowed to think is immoral.

[tsig]

Actually it is what God said. Secondly I don't palm my actions off on anyone. I called him a fool because that is what the Bible says.

Please quote the verse that mentions his name.

You quite actively shirk your responsibility for your actions.

The bible did not select that verse nor did it type and post it here. You did.

[slingblade]

You will not download music or movies online or you will spend the rest of your life in Jail. How are the laws of many [sic] better than those of God?

No law of man purports to punish you with hideous, searing torture for all of eternity for even a single indescretion. I'd say that's a rather significant difference, yeah?

The point is, God cannot abide by Sin.
When Jesus died on the cross he was completely and totally rejected by God. Having been with God the father always it was extremely painful for Jesus.

God wants your love willingly, but there are consequences for behavior, just like there are consequences for raping and murdering people.

I want my kids to love me, too, but I don't threaten to torture them for all of eternity if they don't.


Some day you will realize the truth, everyone will because we will all have to stand before God and be accountable for how we have lived our lives.

Someday, Santa will bring me that pony I asked for so many times, too.
I can't wait!

[Sun Countess]

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child.
I'm tempted to use this as a sig line so everyone can see how truly evil your dogma is.

[slingblade]

Actually it is what God said. Secondly I don't palm my actions off on anyone. I called him a fool because that is what the Bible says.

But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

dude....you're in trouble.....

[Roadtoad]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

My wife would probably take exception to you taking liberties with scripture, given she grew up as a fundamentalist Baptist. '

I would take exception that religion should be about personal experience. I find that highly dangerous.

Consider that as a kid, I was sexually molested. The man who did so claimed to be a Christian. If a minister were to therefore claim that molesting kids is acceptable, (and this is not hyperbole, BTW, given the recent past), that somehow his god ordained it, who are we to claim on the basis you have stated that this is wrong? Never mind the incredible damage done to children in the years that this took place within the RCC, and in certain Protestant churches.

I don't accept this idea that religion is so personal that it cannot and should not be tested. Quite the opposite: If you're going to insist I bow before your god, or suffer an eternity in utter misery, (or even a mere seven years, plus one thousand), you'd better have some solid evidence that what you say is so. And that goes well beyond tossing a book at me, and demanding I read it.

I would further say that unless your actions indicate any concern beyond you own immediate ones, or your own selfish desires, including your narcissistic beliefs that religion is based solely upon one's own experience, then I fail to see even that limited evidence for the existence of your... uh... "god."

It's not circular reasoning to say that you are a fool for believing that there is no God.

It is self evident that there was a creator. The statistical probabilities for the various laws of physics are so staggering to begin with that alone should make you question the idea that there is no God.

It's more comforting to believe there isn't a God than to have to come to the conclusion that there is, and that your behavior has consequences.

The statistical probabilities improve considerably when you realize we're discussing eternity. The claims are that the creation of Earth is the equivalent to a monkey typing the entire works of Shakespeare, or a hurricane blowing through a junkyard and creating a 747. It's truly that impressive, but it's far more likely to happen when you realize the time span involved. It's even more believable once you recognize it only needs to happen once.

I would further say that my actions have always had consequences. It might be more comforting to some to believe those consequences extend beyond this life, that what small comforts I've accrued can be stripped if I somehow violate the laws of the divine, either through watching porn, working on a Saturday, or even picking my nose with a screwdriver. To my mind, I find that rather arbitrary and cruel. If you can demonstrate how that warrants my total annihilation, from memory, flesh, and spirit, or for that matter, that it even occurs, I'm willing to listen, provided you can offer evidence.

I fail to see how you define this as "self-evident." Personally, I think you're misusing the word, though there are others who would disagree.

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me, does it?

Monster

Nope. Sure doesn't. Pretty well destroys the "free will" argument, given that there's a huge amount of coercion in all of this. And you can't get much more coercive than to damn people to an eternity of misery, even if after 1,007 years, they're dumped into the fire and obliterated from the face of what remains.

I'm sorry, Hamelekin, but this is a SKEPTIC'S board. We ask for, (and usually get) evidence. Sometimes, that evidence is shown through the words and actions of those presenting same.

I don't agree with Mr. Clingford when it comes to god, Christianity, or spiritual matters. However, I'm willing to listen because he comes at this with a willingness to discuss matters. I would say the same about a number of other Christians on this board, and while we don't agree, (particularly given I left the church due to people like you), I'm willing to hear them out simply because their actions demonstrate compassion. I find them to be people worthy of emulation.

Sadly, that does not extend to all who call themselves by the name of Christ.

[Roadtoad]

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child.

God Damn You.

My wife miscarried. You are blaming her for this?

My friend lost her grandson to leukemia. You are blaming her for this?

I've had friends lose children to SIDS. You are blaming them for this?

How dare you.

[slingblade]

No, RT, he's blaming God, but he's saying the parents deserved it, as a punishment.

He's saying his God did this to you, on purpose.
He's saying abortion is murder, but his God deliberately kills babies--babies that people wanted and loved--to punish their parents.
He's saying that not only are you in danger of HELLFIRE after you die, but that God has no problem ripping your heart out right here and now, capriciously.
He's saying that when you steal God's cookies, God kills.

These are the arguments of ignorance that harm people, and against which so many here fight.

@Hamelekim: I see by your profile you've been here two years now. That you've seen these arguments before; that you've seen KK and DOC and others, before; and that you're canting their same cant with your fingers in your ears, anyway.
Slow learner?

[Lord Emsworth]

Some day you will realize the truth, everyone will because we will all have to stand before God and be accountable for how we have lived our lives.

No, this is not true even according to protestant fundie doctrine. The way you lived your live is completely and utterly irrelevant if only you - wossname - accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour into your heart at the moment of death.

[Roadtoad]

This was understood, Sling. But it also bears mention that this attitude is not representative of the majority of Christians I know. This is simply his own hate.

[MIKILLINI]

The Bible teaches that we are all corrupted with sin, so for the sinners, or psychopaths to be deciding what is right or wrong, and what is a choice is rather foolish don't you think?



Let's take a view of sinful nature. What is it? Is it rebellion against God? According to the bible it is, and it all began when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge.

Although A&E were warned of death if they ate of that tree, did A&E really understand what death was, or even disobedience? How could they know the difference between right and wrong?

If eating of the tree of knowledge was a key factor in how man became to realize the difference between good and evil, then A&E were unaware of any wrong or right action beforehand.

This subject has always caused Me to wonder why a loving God would create such a destructive catalyst of punishment, suffering and death and then place it within man's reach.
I consider that to be foolish thing to do.

[Lord Emsworth]

The Bible specifically says,

Corinthians 2:9 [snip]

I think that says it all. We won't be spending eternity floating on clouds and playing harps, nor will we be stuck in heaven without physical bodies. The Bible is very clear that we will be physical and in the physical universe.

Again you have this myopic viewpoint of the world. Every child that is under the age of accountability is in heaven when they die. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the lord.

Now I am just left to wonder what it is; physical bodies or not. The first post says yes, whilst the latter seems to deny it.

[Roadtoad]

Now I am just left to wonder what it is; physical bodies or not. The first post says yes, whilst the latter seems to deny it.

It's one more contradiction, which is one more which led to my departure. How do you justify this, and still expect people to follow your god?

[six7s]

It's one more contradiction, which is one more which led to my departure.Its obvious:
Beelzebub wrote teh bible as a series of contradictions to trick otherwise faithful worshippers into doubting the omni-everythingness of teh YHWHY !!! 11 !!!

[Moochie]

<snipped>

If guilt & fear were money--these people would all be billionaires...............

Unfortunately, quite a few are. Exploiting the gullible seems to come naturally with some "religious" folk.

This was something that used to bother me a LOT. I could not imagine my husband or ANY human being literally burning forever. I could not imagine a being that would do this. As an adult I looked into some of the more liberal interpretations of the Bible and was told about the mistranslation of the word 'sheol' and 'gheanna' in the Bible. I think this makes some Christians feel better because they think 'Oh, my loved ones won't literally burn forever, they will just be dead or separated from God!' It didn't make me feel much better though, because if I were going to live forever, I wouldn't want my loved ones to be anywhere except near me. But that fear...that fear of a literal burning hell takes along time to get out of your psyche.

Many of us posting here have been burned by the misery of those who would twist words to control us. I learned a long time ago that the people who do this usually had a history of having had it done to them in one way or another, and that it takes a degree of courage to confront them and demand some evidence for their particular interpretation of scripture. My own thought is, if there is a God -- and I have no evidence that the concept of God is anything more than a human longing for some sort of surety, certainty, safety, love -- then such a being cannot be as misanthropes like fundamentalists of all persuasions depict him or her to be.

Humans have the ability to be transcendentally loving, caring, and thinking beings. Fundamentalists, whether leaders or followers, tend to be broken people who have lost sight of the possible. They are in a very real hell, but as long as they live and breathe, that hell need not be eternal.



M.

[Ladewig]

If eating of the tree of knowledge was a key factor in how man became to realize the difference between good and evil, then A&E were unaware of any wrong or right action beforehand.

This subject has always caused Me to wonder why a loving God would create such a destructive catalyst of punishment, suffering and death and then place it within man's reach.
I consider that to be foolish thing to do.

Indeed. If a parent leaves a 4-year old alone in a room and tells the child "DON'T PLAY WITH THOSE MATCHES ON THE TABLE!" Then is it really the kid's fault when the parent returns and finds the room on fire? Why were A&E expected to have a better understanding of obeying than a child has?

[joobz]

If the recording companies had their way, yes.
So, in your view, God is as moral as a Record Company.
Do you worship Sony?
Then why worship God?

[Paulhoff]

The Bible specifically says,


Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


I think that says it all. We won't be spending eternity floating on clouds and playing harps, nor will we be stuck in heaven without physical bodies. The Bible is very clear that we will be physical and in the physical universe.
How you got that from what is written there is all magic.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Moochie]

Or are they? The Devil tries to confuse believers, and modifying the Bible would be a very good way to do this. If these manuscripts go against something already in the Bible I would be suspicious of it.

From what I've gathered reading your posts thus far, you seem to believe that "free will" amounts to nothing more than following what you think people ought to do -- "God says 'Worship me, or else!'"

That said, it's apparent to me that you are in thrall to someone else's interpretation of scripture, rather than applying your own thinking ability to what you read.

There are possibly as many interpretations of scripture as there are people on this planet -- why are you convinced the one you follow is correct in any way? For instance, in an earlier post I declared that I think "God" is "a human longing for some sort of surety, certainty, safety, love." How do you know otherwise? And how do you know that "Satan" isn't that aspect of ourselves that is capable of averting our gaze from the suffering of others, indeed possibly contributing to the suffering of others?


M.

[six7s]

Why were A&E expected to have a better understanding of obeying than a child has?They weren't expected to...

On the contrary, the apple tree was identified simply as a test that they would fail, thereby necessitating the wrath and vengeance of an eternally sadistic, child-molesting ********

[Paulhoff]

God's laws are all just and righteous and yet we ignore those laws and come up with our own selfish laws that benefit few and cause conflict and criminalize people.
Sure, in the OT, all the killing of every man woman and child is so righteous. And no law against slaverly.

Paul

:) :) :)

A so-called god and that is the best he can do.

[joobz]

Sure, in the OT, all the killing of every man woman and child is so righteous. And no law against slaverly.

I seriously don't know how anyone whose read the bible could make such claims as "all god's laws are just and good..."

Perhaps explaining why god hates mixed fabrics would be a good start...

[six7s]

Sure, in the OT, all the killing of every man woman and child is so righteous. And no law against slaverly.I seriously don't know how anyone whose read the bible could make such claims as "all god's laws are just and good..."

Perhaps explaining why god hates mixed fabrics would be a good start...

Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4700009#post4700009) :)

[Ralph]

This was something that used to bother me a LOT. I could not imagine my husband or ANY human being literally burning forever. I could not imagine a being that would do this. As an adult I looked into some of the more liberal interpretations of the Bible and was told about the mistranslation of the word 'sheol' and 'gheanna' in the Bible. I think this makes some Christians feel better because they think 'Oh, my loved ones won't literally burn forever, they will just be dead or separated from God!' It didn't make me feel much better though, because if I were going to live forever, I wouldn't want my loved ones to be anywhere except near me. But that fear...that fear of a literal burning hell takes along time to get out of your psyche.

Even as little kid I remember being sceptical about religion.....I really had a hard time believing all I was hearing about hellfire & damnation.

My mother was catholic-my father was protestant--neither were very religious and for awhile I was spared.

When I got to be 8 or 9 they were talked into giving me some kind of formal religious "training"......and it wound up being catholic.

The parish priest was one of these hellfire & brimstone Irish catholic lunatics who was always raving either about how much jesus suffered for us or about the exact & horrible nature of what hell was like and what was going to happen to us or anybody else that didn't follow catholic doctrine to the letter.

Problem was--my father was one of those protestants that was supposed to be evil & destined for an eternity in a burning hell.

I though my father was a pretty good guy....certainly not deserving of this---and luckily had enough of a conscience to decide the "good father" was full of it.

One day--I think I was about 15---one of my friends came over with a newspaper in his hands. The "good father" was the cover story.

He'd been convicted of raping an adult woman & was heading to the slammer. ( hey--a least it wasn't one of the altar boys).

I think that's the moment I knew I'd been right to trust my feelings.

[AWPrime]

The Christian God of course. If you actually read the BibleMost of us, me included have read the bible.

you would realize that Christianity is unique among other religions and that Bible Prophecy is very specific about the signs of the last days.

Name any other religion that has had as many prophecies comes true as the Bible has? Every single prophecy in the Bible has come true or will come true in the future.This really shows that you need to read the bible. The lack of knowledge is appalling. Stop listening to preachers and read the bible yourself.

[Monster Machine]

GOd, IMO, sounds like a bit of psychopath. How many women have been raped because they rejected the advances of creeps and weirdos. We have a similar situation here eith God - you WILL love me, or I will kill you.

Nice.

Monster

[Foster Zygote]

I grew up near Winston-Salem, NC. How do you like Greenville? I'm in the Southwest now and I hate it. I can't wait to move back east, but the economy is bad in NC. There is a talk of a move to Maryland or Philly sometime in the next year or so. I'm not big on Philly, but the Baltimore area would be nice.
We like Greenville a lot. The only major downer is the oppressive humidity in the summer. I used to get depressed in the winter near the Great Lakes because I couldn't go outside much. Now I get depressed in the summer for the same reason.

I also have Varieties, but it's still on the 'to be read' list. I've returned to college at the age of 40, so the free time I used to use to read is now used to study. What's really fantastic, though, is that in an upcoming science class I have to take, evolution is the primary focus of the whole course. I picked the best professor at the college and I'm looking forward to getting a formal education about evolution in the Fall.
Yeah, we have a four year old son who tends to consume a lot of our free time. But he's so damn cute that I hardly miss it.

[paximperium]

GOd, IMO, sounds like a bit of psychopath. How many women have been raped because they rejected the advances of creeps and weirdos. We have a similar situation here eith God - you WILL love me, or I will kill you.

Nice.

Monster
I find it worst that people would follow, advocate and believe this psychopath is moral and has the right to do so.

[tsig]

How you got that from what is written there is all magic.

Paul

:) :) :)

He can't, in fact his words clearly contradict the bible verse because the verse says you cannot know heaven then he proceeds to describe it.

[tsig]

I seriously don't know how anyone whose read the bible could make such claims as "all god's laws are just and good..."

Perhaps explaining why god hates mixed fabrics would be a good start...

That verse was ment just fore irael and just for that tyme. you see there was a trade war and god didn't want his chosen to use foriengn guds. He whose eeyes are not opened lo he cannot see. If the camel smells you must not ride him.(not sur about the last but it's scriture.

I'll pray god will send his angel of chastisement to theach you for lo it is better to be beaten than to burn. My dad always said that.

The Church of the Self-Abused

[Foster Zygote]

Again you have this myopic viewpoint of the world. Every child that is under the age of accountability is in heaven when they die. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the lord.

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child.
Look at all those dead babies and children. Hooray for God!

The Christian God of course. If you actually read the Bible you would realize that Christianity is unique among other religions and that Bible Prophecy is very specific about the signs of the last days.

Name any other religion that has had as many prophecies comes true as the Bible has? Every single prophecy in the Bible has come true or will come true in the future.
People can do the same trick with Nostradamus. Ironically, John of Patmos was most likely doing what Nostradamus was doing: Writing about contemporary people and events in an apocalyptic code.

Again, you are looking through a very narrow viewpoint. Children who die in this world are in heaven.
So killing children is a good thing.

Secondly, this world is about suffering. God suffered on the cross, and suffering teaches us lessons that we wouldn't learn otherwise, which is likely why we are living in the world as it is today.
But why do God's plans seen to be to eventually establish a world without suffering? Don't we have suffering because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and went against his plans? Will those born in the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth suffer as we do?

I'm afraid you're wrong. He is very real and you choose to ignore him because you don't like the concept of the Christian God for whatever reasons you have.
No, Hanuman the Monkey God is very real and you choose to ignore him because you don't like the concept of the Hindu gods for whatever reasons you have.

[Niggle]

Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

That only works if you actually HAVE the truth. We've asked over and over again for valid evidence that what you're spouting is the truth (any kind of truth), and you've given us nothing but threats of eternal damnation and whining about how poor/hurting/ignorant (intentionally) you are.

In short, you've shared nothing anyone in a sane state of mind would want to be a part of. In fact, many of us have already run screaming from your nightmare fantasy world of religion.

All you're doing is hardening more hearts against your god. I don't think he'll thank you for it.

[Niggle]

Again you have this myopic viewpoint of the world. Every child that is under the age of accountability is in heaven when they die. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the lord.

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child.

Children who die of cancer suffer terribly. Even if they get the free ticket to heaven, why does your god have to torture them first? That's a hell of a price to pay for a free ride.

[Elizabeth I]

Hi Lisa (or is it Lynn?). Welcome to the JREF forums. I found your post quite moving. To be raised with so much fear in your life is difficult to comprehend, and all in the name of worshipping a divine being. To me this sounds like ritualized abuse. I am very glad indeed that you have managed to move away from that life and that things are much calmer for you (not that the real world doesn't have its share of "tribulations").

Based on what you have said, I have to wonder if it is sheer terror that drives some fundamentalists to evangelise so relentlessly, petrified in case they are found wanting and so condemned to an eternity of unmitigated horror. Maybe I should temper my judgement of them.

Nope. People who scare other people to mitigate their own fear are bullies and should be dealt with accordingly.


I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then He created evil, and is evil Himself for allowing it to continue.

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.


God could have absquatulated with the subjunctive in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the past participles of our grammar. I don't know if this is true or not though.

I enjoy the poetry of the King James version, but I do find it difficult to understand sometimes. Of course some of the modern translations are really bastardizations of the original meaning, so I tend to stick with the KJ version and muddle through the difficult language.


ROFL. Do you actually believe that the King James Version is any closer to the original sources than the Revised Standard, the American Standard or the New English Versions?


Again you have this myopic viewpoint of the world. Every child that is under the age of accountability is in heaven when they die. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the lord.

So when a baby dies it is not punishment at all for the child. It may be punishment for the parents or the society but it certainly isn't punishment for the child...

Again, you are looking through a very narrow viewpoint. Children who die in this world are in heaven.

Secondly, this world is about suffering. God suffered on the cross, and suffering teaches us lessons that we wouldn't learn otherwise, which is likely why we are living in the world as it is today.

So it was worth learning...some lesson...for my cousin to die a lingering, painful death from liver cancer at the age of ten?

Meh. Now if you had said Colin Firth...

O/T to Hokulele: I've often said that if I had to pick a fictional character to worship and a fictional realm to spend my eternity, I'd be at Pemberley with Mr. Darcy/Colin Firth.

Um...ladies...I don't know how to break this to you, but...HE'S MINE.

[MIKILLINI]

Indeed. If a parent leaves a 4-year old alone in a room and tells the child "DON'T PLAY WITH THOSE MATCHES ON THE TABLE!" Then is it really the kid's fault when the parent returns and finds the room on fire? Why were A&E expected to have a better understanding of obeying than a child has?

Exactly. A&E were not allowed to have knowledge of good and evil for reasons depicted in Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

They were clueless to the potential destruction from eating the forbidden fruit.

God did not want man to become like him, but....he placed the very thing he did not want right in the middle of the Garden.
Is this a wise God?
:rolleyes:

[Hokulele]

Um...ladies...I don't know how to break this to you, but...HE'S MINE.


Firth fight!

[aggle-rithm]

The Bible specifically says,

Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



"It is written" is speaking of Isiah 64:4, which reads (specifically):

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither had the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Not the same. The perfect and unchanging word of God has misquoted the perfect unchanging word of God!

How can this be?!?

[aggle-rithm]

He's saying that when you steal God's cookies, God kills.


Why can't he just make more...?

[hamelekim]

Look at all those dead babies and children. Hooray for God!


People can do the same trick with Nostradamus. Ironically, John of Patmos was most likely doing what Nostradamus was doing: Writing about contemporary people and events in an apocalyptic code.

Prophecy of the end times comes from the OT as well as the NT. Jesus, in the gospels goes through signs of the end times. One of these includes the rebirth of Israel as a nation.

You also have the falling away of people from Christianity in the last days. Christianity was just starting let alone be spread around the world when that was written.

These days true Christianity is rare and becoming rarer. You also have Daniels statement about the last days with knowledge increasing and people moving to and fro.


So killing children is a good thing.

Sure, that's exactly what that means...

The point is that God isn't evil for killing anyone let alone children. The children are not being punished and you shouldn't feel bad for them.


But why do God's plans seen to be to eventually establish a world without suffering? Don't we have suffering because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and went against his plans? Will those born in the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth suffer as we do?


The Bible specifically says that after the final Judgment God will remake the universe and the earth. At this point there will never be suffering again.

[hamelekim]

Children who die of cancer suffer terribly. Even if they get the free ticket to heaven, why does your god have to torture them first? That's a hell of a price to pay for a free ride.

This life has suffering in it, you cannot escape that, and although you can blame God for it, you cannot judge him.

[hamelekim]

"It is written" is speaking of Isiah 64:4, which reads (specifically):

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither had the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Not the same. The perfect and unchanging word of God has misquoted the perfect unchanging word of God!

How can this be?!?

It wasn't misquoted.

[hamelekim]

We changed it by defying god thereby creating this world. You should be on your knees to Eve because if she didn't eat the apple you wouldn't be here.

Eve was the first true human because she was the first to act human.

If by acting human you mean sinning, then yes, she was. I wouldn't go Worshiping her for that.

[six7s]

Prophecy of the end times comes from the OT as well as the NT. Jesus, in the gospels goes through signs of the end times. One of these includes the rebirth of Israel as a nation.

You also have the falling away of people from Christianity in the last days. Christianity was just starting let alone be spread around the world when that was written.

These days true Christianity is rare and becoming rarer. You also have Daniels statement about the last days with knowledge increasing and people moving to and fro.You got an ETA on those four horsemen?

[six7s]

Again, you are looking through a very narrow viewpoint. Children who die in this world are in heaven.So killing children is a good thing.

Sure, that's exactly what that means...You are one sick bastard with nothing - absolutely nothing - to substantiate the woo that is your delusion

The point is that God isn't evil for killing anyone let alone children. The children are not being punished and you shouldn't feel bad for them.Saying it a gazillion times won't make it so

[six7s]

This life has suffering in it, you cannot escape that, and although you can blame God for it, you cannot judge him.Wrong

Your mythical god is guilty of being an absolute arse

[Roadtoad]

Wrong

Your mythical god is guilty of being an absolute arse

Further: You are every bit as much of a jackass for defending what would ordinarily be considered extraordinarily cruel and vicious behavior. By anyone.

Quite honestly, it's almost as if you're justifying the death of children at the hands of Moloch, as well. Frankly, there's better ways for us to spend our time.

Ignore, anyone?

[slingblade]

This life has suffering in it, you cannot escape that, and although you can blame God for it, you cannot judge him.

If by acting human you mean sinning, then yes, she was. I wouldn't go Worshiping her for that.


Ooh, ooh, I know! I know! How about instead of blaming, judging, or worshiping imaginary creations, I just ignore them and actually live my life like the mature, rational, responsible adult that I am!

And...ooh, and how about I blame your ideas and all those who hold them for most of the suffering in the world today?

How about I speak against those bat-crap crazy ideas everytime I get the chance?

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I'll do.