From Rapture Ready

[JetLeg]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Post deleted for rule 4 - follow the link to view

Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

[Safe-Keeper]

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.

[JetLeg]

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.

Have you read something besides the title? :boggled:

[supercorgi]

This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore?

I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload?

[paximperium]

I get first dibs. I get that fundie's Ferrarri!!!

[Cainkane1]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

[Cainkane1]

I was going to post on that site but the administrators have disabled the e-mail.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think it's a post that shows how terribly bad the cognitive processes of this kind of believer can be. Rather than question the set up that leads to such obvious injustice, the guy will persist in his certainty of all this believe and be saved and otherwise be damned to eternal punishment. If anything that certainty might lead to other very strange behavior (not just the "take me instead" approach) where any method of getting people to believe (lying, coercion, enticement, etc.) is justified. I think it's very very similar to the sort of thing that motivated the Inquisition, witch hunts, and conversion at sword point.

[Hokulele]

The part of the quote in the OP that strikes me the most is this:

If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature.


Based on the various descriptions of heaven (or really, any type of afterlife), I have always felt this way. Sure, something may persist, but it ain't "me".

[headscratcher4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY3tfs8M

Putty is saved, Elaine is going to hell. Seinfeld. About nails the stupidity of the Rapture Ready POV.

[shadron]

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians? I can read in the Nicene Creed (as amended in Constantinople, 381CE), "We Believe...we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come." This much can be derived from Acts and various of the epistles that talk about the second coming, but most of the current belief in the end times seems to be derived exclusively from the Book of Revelation, which was only very slimly favored at the time the canonical Bible was voted on; it could have been left by the wayside easily enough, and then where would the belief be?

For Catholics this would be pretty simple; most don't generally believe in it literally just as they don't believe in the bible generally as literal. For evangelicals, who assert the truth of the Bible literally, then I guess it's going to be the way John described it, 7 of this and 7 of that. From the wikipedia,

Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) founder Martin Luther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther) at first considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it",[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#cite_note-5) and placed it in his Antilegomena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilegomena). John Calvin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin) believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#cite_note-6)

In the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nazianzus) and other bishops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop) argued against including this book in the New Testament canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon), chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#cite_note-7) Christians in Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) also reject it because of the Montanists' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism) heavy reliance on it.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#cite_note-8) In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter) among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicephorus), Patriarch of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Liturgy) of the Eastern Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church).
I might note that it is also not used within the catholic readings of gospel and epistles in the mass. It would seem to be at least as fringe a belief as Pentecostalism, for example.

[Mr Clingford]

This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore?

I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload?Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person).

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?If I passed you these marshmallows would you toast them for me?
I presume you are referring to Jesus's story about the rich man and the poor man at his gate. If one takes the story to be literally describing how things are then you are right. On the other hand maybe Jesus was just using a story to make a point.

[Mr Clingford]

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians? Indeed, it is not an article of faith to the majority of Xtians. However there is a minority, especially in America, who seem to think that the dire Left Behind series is a theological treatise.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'll tag on to this thread to raise a "concern" I have wrt to flying off to heaven on death or being resurrected when JC returns. Which is it? :confused:

[supercorgi]

Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person).

I won't hold it against you. I have (had) 3 cats. I've also had rabbits, ferrets, mice, hamsters, turtles, snakes, and even chickens. I love animals! And not just because some of them taste good. :D

[six7s]

Have you read something besides the title? :boggled:I have

Its called Luke, a book in the bible, and it purports to document the words of the christian messiah... words that are out of whack with the quote in the OP

Luke 14:26 (King James Version) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014:26;&version=9;)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.



Someone told me that we Christians will have our love and worry for the unsaved washed away, so that we will say that these loved ones deserve hell. That troubles me. If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature.

[jimmygun]

I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing.

If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment?

It is my contention that no one gets to go to heaven. When you die you die and a ringer gets your place in heaven. Some say it is your soul, but then the soul must be a foreign part of you, a part that does not carry the memories of the self.

It is the same as being on a sports team. You try your hardest to make the team, train hard to develop your skills, show up at every practice and contribute to the team, and when the big tournament day finally gets here, the coach says your name and sweater will be given to a professional player friend of his to ensure that the team will win.

If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect.

[Mr Clingford]

...If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect.This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches.

[Belz...]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793



Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

His/her beliefs are just as misguided and dangerous as the others'. So, no.

[jimmygun]

This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches.

It follows that if you have your compassion for those who are suffering for eternity washed away then that compassion must be a fault rather than an attribute.

[Kernel Hapablap]

The truth comes about quite naturally here as it does whenever you attempt to delve into "deeper" religious questions: the harder you look and think about it (rationally), the more you can come to only one conclusion: religion is crap.

[Robin]

Have you read something besides the title? :boggled:

Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted?

Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion.

Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this.

Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face.

[Robin]

I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing.

If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment?

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

[D'rok]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793



Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?

Others, in that thread...not so much
I know it tears me up to think of sisters, a brother, and lifelong friends cast into the lake of fire. Our Father's love for all these same people is profoundly deeper and on levels we cannot comprehend, than ours.
Friends + family + eternal lake of fire = God's love.
:boggled:

[Nursefoxfire]

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?

Others, in that thread...not so much


:boggled:

Speaking of non-compassion:

some cold-hearted poster from RR

When she was 91 she moved in with us. After a year with her I started to pray Lord if she is not going to come to You and go to heaven then just take her out...God for give me.

[D'rok]

Speaking of non-compassion:
They're such a lovely bunch. From a slightly saner (and definitely harmless) religious fanatic, who got at least this much right:

"But if you know what life is worth.
You would look for yours on earth."

Bob Marley

[JetLeg]

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?



No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt.

And the negative comments do have a point -

He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!!

[JetLeg]

And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread.

Originally Posted by His Bride
Jesus paid the price. You never could. Your compassion for your family members is noble and loving, but it is a slap in the face to God. He has given each of us an opportunity. And those of us who are saved have also been given the commission from the Lord Jesus to preach the Word in season and out. That is what we should be doing. The rest belongs in His hands.

I agree totally with this post. This is where faith comes in. We must pray and trust God and not our own feelings...

Bolding mine.

[D'rok]

No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt.

And the negative comments do have a point -

He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!!
Hard to read much into a single post. What if he/she doesn't get a good answer from the faithful? I think there is still hope for people like this particular poster.

[JetLeg]

Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted?

Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion.

Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this.

Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face.

Good point.

[Wildy]

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

Is that in the sense that my infinity is bigger then your infinity, or that you are divided up and sent to two different eternities?

[JetLeg]

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

Cool.

So one is infinite like the set of all the positive numbers, and the other one is infinite like the set of all the rational numbers?

:D

[Rasmus]

And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread.



Bolding mine.

Noble and loving is not what god wants. No surprise there.

[technoextreme]

Speaking of non-compassion:
I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane...

[Nursefoxfire]

I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane...

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

[Rasmus]

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

Sadly, it does make sense:

God ought to know if the old woman will ever convert. And if she won't, why not let her go to hell that much sooner?

The irony is that nobody has to reach the age of 90plus for this argument to work. God should be killing babys left and right (like in the old days) so long as they wouldn't have converted later in life anyway.

[slingblade]

I might note that it is also not used within the catholic readings of gospel and epistles in the mass. It would seem to be at least as fringe a belief as Pentecostalism, for example.

I grew up with the idea though. It was everywhere when I was a kid, in Tulsa. It didn't really seem like a fringe idea to me, and Pentecostal churches have been pretty mainstream and very common wherever I've lived.

I guess that means my perceptions are distorted, having grown up in it, like a cultist's kid...but I sure never thought of Pentecostalism or the Rapture as being on the fringe.

[Mr Clingford]

I grew up with the idea though. It was everywhere when I was a kid, in Tulsa. It didn't really seem like a fringe idea to me, and Pentecostal churches have been pretty mainstream and very common wherever I've lived.

I guess that means my perceptions are distorted, having grown up in it, like a cultist's kid...but I sure never thought of Pentecostalism or the Rapture as being on the fringe.My understanding is that Pentecostalism, if you mean a belief in tongues, healings, words of knowledge etc, is widespread.

You are unlucky, though, to have grown up amongst Rapture believers as that is in the minority.

[yodaluver28]

Sadly, I never knew that the rapture stuff was fringe until long after I grew up either. That subject gave my brother, sister, and I years of fun and emotionally fulfilling dinner conversation. :rolleyes:

Seriously, anybody who believes in that stuff is sick to teach it to young kids. I can't tell you what it meant to me to get an apology from my father for it when I finally told him how it tormented me as a child.

[kurious_kathy]

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.
What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself.

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.

[kurious_kathy]

Indeed, it is not an article of faith to the majority of Xtians. However there is a minority, especially in America, who seem to think that the dire Left Behind series is a theological treatise.

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

[Mr Clingford]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.
No, I don't believe in the Rapture - I think the idea is based on some misunderstandings of Bible verses.

[aggle-rithm]

I'll tag on to this thread to raise a "concern" I have wrt to flying off to heaven on death or being resurrected when JC returns. Which is it? :confused:

If you're a saint, you're in immediately. Otherwise, you have to wait until judgement day. But that's OK, because you'll be dead!

Gotta feel sorry for those saints. For millenia they are up there in an uncrowded Heaven, easy access to the pool and golf course, and all of a sudden they'll be joined by billions of mouth-breathers, stumbling about and trampling on the carefully manicured landscape.

If I were a saint, I would urge those in the mortal world to smoke, drink, and fornicate heavily. That way there wouldn't be such long lines at the heavenly roller coasters, when the end of days arrives.

[aggle-rithm]

Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)


Although war has gotten more efficient, the rate that people have died in wars each year has remained steady since WWII. Up until that point, it had increased every year since pretty much the beginning of history.

So, war-wise, things are better now than they were in biblical times.


The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil.


If we already know what's going to happen, what's the point of going through with it?


It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?"

So you're saying all black people are going to hell?

That's quite a bold statement. Do you care to back it up with facts?

[Alareth]

No, I don't believe in the Rapture - I think the idea is based on some misunderstandings of Bible verses.

The History Channel had an interesting show on the Rapture a couple of weeks ago that traced the origins of the idea to a British pastor in the 1800's and arose from dispensationalism.

It really gained a foothold here in the US among evangelicals.

As a religious belief and teaching, the idea is less than 200 years old.

[JetLeg]

I can't tell you what it meant to me to get an apology from my father for it when I finally told him how it tormented me as a child.

Was he religious when he gave the apology? If so, why did he apologize, wouldn't he think "I just told my child the truth"?

[Hokulele]

Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day.


Please give an example of a time in history when this wasn't true.

[kbm99]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

KK, perhaps you could quote the specific Bible verses that support the popularly held concept of the Rapture as understood by modern evangelicals such as yourself.

[kbm99]

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians?

When I was confirmed int he Lutheran church at the age of . . . 13 or so, maybe? . . . the idea of the Second Coming of Christ was taught, but the whole "rapture" concept was not really discussed. Indeed, in many ways, the Second Coming was treated as something of a mystery - we were told it would happen, but not how, or what form it would take, or when, or even exactly what "Second Coming" would mean.

At about that same time, Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book and movie hit the scene. They went a long way to popularize premillenial dispensationalist theology, but even so I can't recall a lot of discussion about the "End Times" in church. Lutherans tended to be a bit more pragmatic in their approach, at least the Lutherans I was around did.

When I went through a (thankfully brief) evangelical conversion/experience myself some years later, I attended first a Southern Baptist Church (where the youth minister told me I needed to be baptized again because Lutherans were "almost as bad as Catholics" and therefore my infant baptism didn't count) and eventually a non-denominational church in Austin. The Baptists spent a LOT of time talking about the rapture and wondering if the anti-christ was alive on earth yet, etc. It was a typical feature of the Sunday sermon, for example. The non-denominational group, not so much. Maybe in Sunday school, or as a special topic, but it wasn't emphasized.

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.

[slingblade]

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.

Exactly. Where I grew up, if you weren't Pentecostal, you were probably Southern Baptist. Or Catholic, but we were taught as kids that they weren't "really" Christians, so they could be ignored.

But yeah, the rapture was a pretty normal thing to hear about back then, back there.

In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago, and right here, that I found out it isn't something all Christians (except for Catholics) believe in.


...edited to add: I grew up reading Hal Lindsey, too.

[Mr Clingford]

KK, perhaps you could quote the specific Bible verses that support the popularly held concept of the Rapture as understood by modern evangelicals such as yourself.
Probably Thessalonians and Matthew (I think).
When I was confirmed int he Lutheran church at the age of . . . 13 or so, maybe? . . . the idea of the Second Coming of Christ was taught, but the whole "rapture" concept was not really discussed. Indeed, in many ways, the Second Coming was treated as something of a mystery - we were told it would happen, but not how, or what form it would take, or when, or even exactly what "Second Coming" would mean.Things sounds similar to my Anglican upbringing where the "Second Coming" was left as a vague thing, although the more literal minded did think Christ would actually come down out of the clouds. Fortunately, the Rapture made no appearance whatsoever.

At about that same time, Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book and movie hit the scene. They went a long way to popularize premillenial dispensationalist theology, but even so I can't recall a lot of discussion about the "End Times" in church. Lutherans tended to be a bit more pragmatic in their approach, at least the Lutherans I was around did.

When I went through a (thankfully brief) evangelical conversion/experience myself some years later, I attended first a Southern Baptist Church (where the youth minister told me I needed to be baptized again because Lutherans were "almost as bad as Catholics" and therefore my infant baptism didn't count) and eventually a non-denominational church in Austin. The Baptists spent a LOT of time talking about the rapture and wondering if the anti-christ was alive on earth yet, etc. It was a typical feature of the Sunday sermon, for example. The non-denominational group, not so much. Maybe in Sunday school, or as a special topic, but it wasn't emphasized.

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.I still laugh that some Xtians don't think Catholics are also Xtians.

[technoextreme]

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.
Well then never mind. Insane is the word. I have no idea why I interpreted the way I did.

[Nogbad]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

I am not sure why I am asking this but what the hell. Why would it be of concern? What difference does it make? Is one only saved if all the doctrines are right? Makes the Jesus thing totally pointless if that is the case.

[slingblade]

I am not sure why I am asking this but what the hell. Why would it be of concern? What difference does it make? Is one only saved if all the doctrines are right? Makes the Jesus thing totally pointless if that is the case.

I understand why she says she's concerned.

I don't understand where she got the idea it was any of her business, or why anyone should care about her concern.

However, it does make the point that, if there is a god, we should all be very glad that he is making the decisions, and not his followers!

[Nogbad]

I understand why she says she's concerned.

I don't understand where she got the idea it was any of her business, or why anyone should care about her concern.

However, it does make the point that, if there is a god, we should all be very glad that he is making the decisions, and not his followers!

It is true actually. The more I read the more relaxed I become. If there is a God there is no way they are going to be as mean and as mental as their followers.

Although arguably by not being mean and mental they are being mean and mental to their followers; who are looking forward to some serious roasting and hearty "told you so's". :( Nothing is ever simple is it?

[kbm99]

Probably Thessalonians and Matthew (I think).

Generally they will trot out a couple of OT verses as well. None of them unambiguously point to the revenge-fantasy "rapture" scenario that modern premillenial dispensationist evangelicals believe in, but so what?

Things sounds similar to my Anglican upbringing where the "Second Coming" was left as a vague thing, although the more literal minded did think Christ would actually come down out of the clouds. Fortunately, the Rapture made no appearance whatsoever.

At least in the Lutheran churches I attended as a kid, there was considerably more emphasis placed on how one should live than on what was going to happen after you died. Of course, a lot of it had to do with how (and why) one could live in a way presumably pleasing to God, but at least there was some suggestion that you should be "doing stuff" and not just believing.


I still laugh that some Xtians don't think Catholics are also Xtians.

That statement by that particular clergyman (do they call them that in the SBC? I am not sure.) was the beginning of the end of my brief flirtation with evangelical Christianity.

[steve s]

When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing?

Not at all. In the past 160 years we abolished slavery, had the civil rights movement and elected our first black president. Plenty of monarchies have given way to democracy. And we're finding ways to generate power without polluting our environment.


Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says

When haven't there been wars?


(Christiand know this)

Christians seem to "know" a lot of silly things.


I never cease to be amazed by what some people are capable of believing. This may be a bit of a derail, but how long will it take for all of this end-time madness to fade away and for people to realize that Jeezus just ain't gonna come again? 500 years? 1000 years? Ten thousand years from now will people like Kurious Kathy still be predicting that the end-times are upon us?

Steve S.

[Rasmus]

Please give an example of a time in history when this wasn't true.

Well, the end is drawing nearer and nearer every day. How could it be otherwise?

Same with the heat death of the universe: It's drawing nearer and nearer. Now, I won't claim the thought bothers me all that much, but it's technically true...

Okay, we could argue about whether those events - i.e. the end and the heat death of the universe - are going to happen at all, but as long as we assime they are, they are getting nearer. Of course, every event in the history of the universe is a sign for that, seeing that we just have to note the passing of time.

I shall grant you your point, though, and admit that there is certainly nothiung now that indicates that either event is close at hand in any meaningful sort of way.

[hallon]

People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself. [...]

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.
Kurious_kathy, do you believe that it is an active decision to believe in your god? Or is it up to this god to "do something supernaturally" to make people open to receive him, as you put it? Those statements seem contradictory to me.

I'm an atheist, so I'm just trying to understand how you perceive this. :)

[Tanstaafl]

What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself.

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.


Wait, are you saying that we're actually children of Satan? That's pretty sick, even for you.

I'm guessing you just cut and pasted this from a fundy website, barely having read it, so I won't take it personally.

[Roadtoad]

What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself.

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.

First of all, learn to spell, dammit.

Second, how dare you? You have repeatedly shown yourself to be one of the most hateful, arrogant, self-centered posters on this board. Your whole attitude is one of self-righteousness, "Look at me! I'm so holy, suffering for Jesus as I'm witnessing to those horrible atheists at JREF!"

Oh, please. You demonstrate time and again why no one in their right mind would listen to the blather of Rapture Ready, (and yes, I've read it, and it's far more disturbing than anything you can imagine), and why it's so repugnant to the rest of us.

At what point, Kathy, do you GET IT?

When I was a believer, I used to pray to God that if my actions were an affront to the lost, if I did anything that might cost another person their salvation, that I would be the one sent to Hell, not them. What, pray tell, in your actions or words indicates that kind of willingness to accept your responsibilities for your actions? Nothing, from this vantage point; you're simply here to look good for your fellow "believers" back home.

At NO POINT have you really read the Bible. If you had, you might have realized that the point of the Book of Revelation was that God is victorious in the end. There are people enduring far worse than anything listed in the Book of Revelation, some of them doing so for the sake of Christ. It has NOTHING to do with a coming "Rapture," and that the whole business of a "Rapture" is simply one more way for certain "Christians" to avoid their very public (and very real) responsibilities in this world. "See? I don't have to help shelter the homeless, or feed the hungry. There's wars and rumors of war, and all kinds of natural disasters. JESUS is coming soon, and so I'll just sit here on my ass and wait for him to take me home."

It's a pant-load. You ignore the realities that in centuries past, Christians built hospitals, schools, shelters, farms, and they served their communities with humility and gratitude. You, on the other hand, come here and bleat your "sermons," ignoring the damage you do to your own testimony, (which is a frigging crock), and the damage you do to the long-respected history of Christianity's service to the nations. You become an embarrassment to groups such as Voice of the Martyrs and Open Doors.

Let me tell you something: I've actually met Brother Andrew, (the author of God's Smuggler.) He's one of the gutsiest men I've ever met, and someone I respect, and will respect, as long as I live. He doesn't talk the Gospel, he lives it. His actions are not just centered on preaching the Bible, but on working for the civil liberties of ALL people. His concern goes far beyond converting people to Jesus, but making sure they can live in liberty. It extends beyond one particular belief system. His actions are designed to help all people, because if he only helps those who agree with him, what value is there to his words and his work?

That, Kathy, is called INTEGRITY. You have none. Why should we listen to you when you have insulted us, when you have degraded us, and when you insult with your words and actions the Christian family members we love? You humiliate people we respect with your constant riff about salvation, something you have clearly no interest in seeing anyone here achieving. I honestly think you'd be groovin' on the notion of watching us drop into the Lake of Fire, one by one. That's a sick piece of business, if you ask me, (not that you did.)

Your words might have carried some weight at one point, but not in the past couple of years. Your actions have shown you lack anything resembling compassion, courtesy, or courage. If anything, you've shown your words to be nothing more than waste, (and that's being polite).

I'm tired of reading your continual rambling about a God of whom you know nothing, and have even less interest in learning about. This is some sort of power trip for you, and it's insulting to continue to read this blather from you.

Do yourself a favor: Just once, read the Bible, the whole way through, and do it on your own, without someone coaching you. Think for yourself, for once in your life.

And at the very least, start acting like a Christian.

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=kurious_kathy;4646335] When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)


I wonder how an individual born in Western Europe around 1300 or so would feel about this.

About the time he was turning from a child into an adult--he'd get hit with a bit of catastrophic climate change. The Medeival warm period suddenly changing into the Little Ice age.

This of course led to massive crop failures and The Great Famine. Millions died.

If he got through this & got a little older...he'd get to see the start of the Hundred Years War. A bloody mess....mostly Christians slaughtering each other over whose brand of Christianity was the "right" one.

Then--to top it off---the Black Death.

Current estimates are this killed (in a horrible painfull way) anywhere from 45-50% of Europe's population.

Some cities & towns though lost up to 80-90% of their population.

War-famine-pestilence- and death. All on scale that makes what's happening in our present day look like a vacation.

700 years later though--we're still here.

No rapture...no jesus...no end of the world. We're still here.

Such a waste--squandering the life you've been given here for the empty promise of heaven.

[MIKILLINI]

What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing?

Of course the world looks that way, because it's the only one you are programmed to see from your Godbot view.

[six7s]

Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfectNo

You believe

BIG difference

When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing?No

It seems obvious that life is flourishing from the equator to the poles, from 1000s of metres above and below sea level

Where have you been looking to conclude that the planet is perishing?

"Where do you want to spend eternity?"You don't get a choice

You are going to die

Die as in 'be dead'

Dead as in 'ashes to ashes, funk to funky'

If God can save me I know he can save anyone.You know nothing of the sort

You believe a whole bunch of crap

[kurious_kathy]

KK, perhaps you could quote the specific Bible verses that support the popularly held concept of the Rapture as understood by modern evangelicals such as yourself.Okay here's one verse that comes to mind,

1 Corinthians 15: 51 -53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

and here's another reference in scripture that seems even more clear about there is most certainly a rapture that will happen.

1 Thes. 4:13-18 The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

[Hokulele]

And from the previous chapter...

1 Cor 14:34-35: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



Nice.

[kurious_kathy]

Of course the world looks that way, because it's the only one you are programmed to see from your Godbot view.
Jesus is the only one holding this world together and once he's ready to come back and judge this world he will let it all burn and then remake it. A new heaven and earth is what he has promised us and I know this is exactly what he will do. Heaven and earth will pass away but Gods word will last forever! You can count on this because God keeps his word.

[Hokulele]

Jesus is the only one holding this world together and once he's ready to come back and judge this world he will let it all burn and then remake it. A new heaven and earth is what he has promised us and I know this is exactly what he will do. Heaven and earth will pass away but Gods word will last forever! You can count on this because God keeps his word.


Do you understand the real reason that letter to the Thessalonians was included in the New Testament? Paul was writing to those who were concerned that Jesus hadn't returned "in this generation" and people were dying without being Raptured. Since it was clear that the original prediction was wrong, Paul had to make up some nonsense to cover for the original mistake.

And people are still falling for it.

[kurious_kathy]

And from the previous chapter...

1 Cor 14:34-35: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



Nice.

Okay Hokulele in the church of Corinth there were some big issues that Paul needed to address as they were getting a bit out of sinc as to the Holy Spirits leading and teaching. The women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority(and we still do today) which is the hierarchy that God has put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women. We women can be deaconess's in a church but not a pastor as that is Gods way. What's important in Christianity is we learn to submit to the Lord and the way he ordaines things. The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.

[Hokulele]

Okay Hokulele in the church of Corinth there were some big issues that Paul needed to address as they were getting a bit out of sinc as to the sprits leading and teaching. The women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority which is the hierarchy that God put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women. We women can be deaconess's in a church but not a pastor as that is Gods way. What's important in Christianity is we learn to submit to the Lord and the way he ordaines things. The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.


Which I find to be a completely despicable practice. A culture that cannot accept the fact that all people should have equal opportunity is one I have absolutely no interest in.

Your god is an ass.

[kurious_kathy]

Do you understand the real reason that letter to the Thessalonians was included in the New Testament? Paul was writing to those who were concerned that Jesus hadn't returned "in this generation" and people were dying without being Raptured. Since it was clear that the original prediction was wrong, Paul had to make up some nonsense to cover for the original mistake.

And people are still falling for it.

Paul did not make anything up, he shared the message he was given and just because the rapture hasn't happened yet does not mean in any way that it won't. I do believe the rapture is the next big event on God's calender and then the 7 years of tribulation on earth will begin. Woe to those who are going to go through the great tribulation. I say choose Jesus now to taste and see that the Lord is good, and to avoid the great tribulation which is getting closer each day!

[Hokulele]

Paul did not make anything up...


Either Paul made things up, or Luke did in writing Acts. Have you ever noticed how those two accounts are extremely contradictory regarding Paul and his actions?

[kurious_kathy]

Which I find to be a completely despicable practice. A culture that cannot accept the fact that all people should have equal opportunity is one I have absolutely no interest in.

Your god is an ass.
No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.

[MIKILLINI]

A new heaven and earth is what he has promised us and I know this is exactly what he will do. Heaven and earth will pass away but Gods word will last forever! You can count on this because God keeps his word.

How do you know? Where is the compelling evidence that gives you such assurance?

[kurious_kathy]

Either Paul made things up, or Luke did in writing Acts. Have you ever noticed how those two accounts are extremely contradictory regarding Paul and his actions?
Different authors may have different ways of explaining things, but I do not notice any real contradicitions. Are you referring to any specific verses?

[Hokulele]

No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.


Really? So an equal is basically told to sit down and shut up? An equal is told they can never hold any position of authority?

My husband and I are equal partners in our marriage. There is no "head of the household". Any decision requires both of our approval, not just his. We have learned how to compromise rather than submit. In my professional life, I have owned my own company for the past 12 years, and all final decisions affecting the business are mine and mine alone.

Like I said earlier, your god is an ass.

[Hokulele]

Different authors may have different ways of explaining things, but I do not notice any real contradicitions. Are you referring to any specific verses?


Was Paul accepted by the church in Jerusalem or not? Did he get along with James or not?

Have you even read Acts and Paul's epistles?

Well, the ones that are generally believed to have been written by Paul and not the known forgeries.

[kurious_kathy]

How do you know? Where is the compelling evidence that gives you such assurance?
God Word is the evidence, he said it, and I believe it. Gods word brings life into a persons soul if they let the Holy Spirit in you just know it's all true. I can't put it more plainly than this. God's Word is alive and active and brings life to all who call on the name of Jesus. He's the one that needs to show you the way.

[MIKILLINI]

God Word is the evidence, he said it, and I believe it. Gods word brings life into a persons soul if they let the Holy Spirit in you just know it's all true. I can't put it more plainly than this. God's Word is alive and active and brings life to all who call on the name of Jesus. He's the one that needs to show you the way.

You mean this God? For instance: Exodus 34:6, Deuteronomy 7:9-10, Titus 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.

But....then there is this:

2Thessalonians 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

You know these passages?

[slingblade]

No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.

I can clearly see now, Kathy, that you truly do love your neighbor every bit as much as you love yourself. And that's a damned shame.

[proudnonbbeliever]

Jesus is the only one holding this world together ...(snippy).

here i was thinking it was gravity....

he must have the biggest guns in the universe

[Lucian]

Okay here's one verse that comes to mind,

1 Corinthians 15: 51 -53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

and here's another reference in scripture that seems even more clear about there is most certainly a rapture that will happen.

1 Thes. 4:13-18 The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I just don't get "rapture" from these passages. Just sounds like Second Coming/Last Judgment to me.

[proudnonbbeliever]

No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.

so whats the case in homosexual or polygamous marriage?

whos in charge there?

[Lucian]

Okay Hokulele in the church of Corinth there were some big issues that Paul needed to address as they were getting a bit out of sinc as to the Holy Spirits leading and teaching. The women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority(and we still do today) which is the hierarchy that God has put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women. We women can be deaconess's in a church but not a pastor as that is Gods way. What's important in Christianity is we learn to submit to the Lord and the way he ordaines things. The man is still called to be the head of the household and the spiritual leader for his family too.

So, if a male Christian told you to hold your tongue and stop evangelizing at us, would you have to obey?

[Mr Clingford]

Get back to the kitchen.

kk, do you have long hair, but cover it in church. Some Xtian women do and some don't.

[Hokulele]

Get back to the kitchen.

kk, do you have long hair, but cover it in church. Some Xtian women do and some don't.


Uh oh, KK. A Christian man has spoken and you had better respect his authority.


(;))

[Sideroxylon]

God Word is the evidence, he said it, and I believe it. Gods word brings life into a persons soul if they let the Holy Spirit in you just know it's all true. I can't put it more plainly than this. God's Word is alive and active and brings life to all who call on the name of Jesus. He's the one that needs to show you the way.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who also know in their hearts they are right. You would probably say they are condemned to hell for not accepting Jesus as the son of God and his sacrifice for our sins made in your narrative. They would say this was rather your fate. They have the Quran, which they say is the final word of God. It seems one group must be very wrong so can we rely on our feelings?

How could anyone determine if this feeling of certainty was coming from God, their own wishful thinking, the Matrix, Satan or other mischevious entity?

[slingblade]

Okay here's one verse that comes to mind,

1 Corinthians 15: 51 -53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

and here's another reference in scripture that seems even more clear about there is most certainly a rapture that will happen.

1 Thes. 4:13-18 The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Where's the ones about the following seven years' Tribulation, and then the 1000 Years kingdom on earth with Satan locked in hell, and then the New Heaven and Earth?

Cuz I know my Rapture teachings, lady, and you ain't got it by even half.

You guys do know that these cowards expect their God to take them off the planet and leave everyone else here to suffer unimaginable torments at the hands of the Antichrist for seven years, and die. All of us. Then, after we're dead, the cowards get to come back, sweep us into the garbage, and party for a 1000 years, woo-hoo!

The next time a christian says she's anticipating the Rapture of the Saints, do remember she's basically saying, "I can't wait until a world dictator kills you all!"

Such lovely people.

[The_Fire]

What happens after the 1000 years of partying again?

[slingblade]

Last Judgment, baby. The Sorting of the Sheep and the Goats, the Wheat from Chaff, the Doomed from the Screw You Guys, I'M going home! But if you were at the party, you get an auto-in to the after-party, no sweat. I think it's more or less formality, really.

[Alareth]

so whats the case in homosexual or polygamous marriage?

Whos in charge there?


Obviously, SATAN!

[Ladewig]

No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.


I am amazed at the mental gymnastics you have to perform to reconcile the world as you see it with the world as described in the Bible. How in the devil's name do you believe that women are simultaneously equal and subservient?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
ETA: just when I think that you have run out of new ways to offend posters on this board, you find a new one.

[ponderingturtle]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

Wish you were here.

[paximperium]

I am amazed at the mental gymnastics you have to perform to reconcile the world as you see it with the world as described in the Bible. How in the devil's name do you believe that women are simultaneously equal and subservient?
Duh...separate but equal....oh wait.


ETA: just when I think that you have run out of new ways to offend posters on this board, you find a new one. If you don't understand reality, you tend not to know what is offensive.

[kbm99]

You guys do know that these cowards expect their God to take them off the planet and leave everyone else here to suffer unimaginable torments at the hands of the Antichrist for seven years, and die. All of us. Then, after we're dead, the cowards get to come back, sweep us into the garbage, and party for a 1000 years, woo-hoo!


Which is exactly why I characterized it as revenge fantasy. Just you wait, you unbelievers, until Jesus comes back with the trump of God! Then we'll see who's sorry!

[kbm99]

Okay here's one verse that comes to mind,

1 Corinthians 15: 51 -53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Which says absolutely nothing about "the Rapture." I realize it's common in evangelical circles to consider any verse with the word "trumpet" in it as relating to "the Rapture" but the above is clearly nothing but a promise of resurrection.

and here's another reference in scripture that seems even more clear about there is most certainly a rapture that will happen.

1 Thes. 4:13-18 The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Actually, no it isn't. It's an assurance from the author* that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. The early members of the Church had been promised that Christ would return in their lifetimes, and fully expected to live to see that happen, but were concerned for those who died before Christ's return - what would become of them? The author was assuring them that the dead believers would be resurrected when Jesus returned.

Interpreting this as prophecy of the Rapture is a modern bit of exegesis, though I doubt you yourself even know who Darby or Scofield were. Further, either of the verses you cite tell us anything about the Tribulation, the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth or any other features of "the Rapture."


*Probably not Paul. Or, rather, Thessalonians was probably pieced together by a post-apostolic writer from earlier fragments which may have been Pauline in origin, but certainly was changed in the process.

[kbm99]

Uh oh, KK. A Christian man has spoken and you had better respect his authority.

(;))

I have it on good authority that Mr Clingford puts sugar on his porridge, so she's off the hook on that one.

Nice try though. If only it were that simple.

[Octavo]

First of all, learn to spell, dammit.

Second, how dare you? You have repeatedly shown yourself to be one of the most hateful, arrogant, self-centered posters on this board. Your whole attitude is one of self-righteousness, "Look at me! I'm so holy, suffering for Jesus as I'm witnessing to those horrible atheists at JREF!"
<--snip-->


Nominated!

[tsig]

No God is good. Just because he gives men authority over women does not mean he does not see us as equals. Women have a different role in life than men. We are just as important to God as men are.

No matter how much you rattle your chains and tell he how sweet your servitude is we are appalled at your slavery.

[Fireshadow]

No God is good.

This I can agree with. No god is good--all gods, as they are made in man's image (and not the other way around, despite what your Bible tells you), are inherently flawed. Of course, your context means you probably intended a comma between the no and the god, but if you're hung up on literal interpretations, this statement is perfectly accurate.

[FSM]

In response to my question, "Is the JREF Sexist?" I say, no; perhaps vulgar, off color, argumentative, inappropriate, contrarian and short-tempered, but not sexist. Today, however, I can say after reading Kurious Kathy's posts, that yes, undoubtedly, there is one true blue sexist at the JREF.

Thank you KK, for providing me the litmus test that I was searching for.

[Mr Clingford]

I have it on good authority that Mr Clingford puts sugar on his porridge, so she's off the hook on that one.

Nice try though. If only it were that simple.
Hey now, I actually do put salt on my porridge, but I'm only a quarter Scottish, so perhaps I don't count.

[supercorgi]

The women needed to be reminded to respect mens authority(and we still do today) which is the hierarchy that God has put in place. Jesus is the head of the church and men are right under him in authority and then women.

You are just a scary, scary woman and and a role model for every battered wife who puts up with her husband's abuse. Can't you see how dangerous your brand of non-questioning obedience is?

[supercorgi]

Get back to the kitchen.

kk, do you have long hair, but cover it in church. Some Xtian women do and some don't.

:clap:

Thank you Mr. Clingford for asserting your male authority!! Now KK, put a sock in it, you've been told to by someone in authority! :D

[Roadtoad]

Hey now, I actually do put salt on my porridge, but I'm only a quarter Scottish, so perhaps I don't count.

So much for the "No True Scotsman" fallacy... :p

[Niggle]

I can clearly see now, Kathy, that you truly do love your neighbor every bit as much as you love yourself. And that's a damned shame.

This is her biggest problem and why she has so much trouble here. She truly believes herself to be worthless, hopeless, and deserving of all the abuse anyone can heap on her. She's made mistakes in her past, bad choices, and suffered for them, and now she believes she deserves all that suffering. She's the perfect case study for clinical severe depression. Unfortunately, she's in denial about that, too, and refuses to accept it and get treated for it because she apparently had a couple of bad experiences with that as well (quack therapists and ineffective medication).

Her religion has given her a way to deal with it. It confirms all her fears and gives her an easy explanation for why she feels the way she does. It also removes her responsibility to do anything about it; she can't possibly change because that's the way God made her. Sick it most certainly is, but it's easy and comfortably familiar. As I recall, you would understand all too well how hard it can be for the abused to actually effect change in their lives. She hasn't got the strength of will to manage it on her own, and the people around her are only interested in reinforcing her beliefs because it matches their sick version of the religion, too. Besides, all she talks about are the men in her life, and in their book, they've got the upper hand, so why would they want to change that by empowering a mere female?

Unfortunately for her, she projects all that sickness in her preaching. She bleats on and on about how horrible we all are and how we deserve the eternal tortures of hell and how we have to accept and worship the instrument of that torture, like a battered woman singing the praises of her abusive husband. She literally cannot see the good in the world because she can't find it in herself, and in the kind of church she attends, the bad is all that's preached. The believers have to be kept scared to keep them from abandoning the flock.

And she wonders why none of us are accepting her message. It's because she's not asking for us to be saved; she's asking us to join her in her own eternity of torment inflicted by her own abused mind. She can't see any other outlook in life, so she can't accept that anyone else's views may differ.

I pity her; I really do. But I'm also sick of her barging into any and every thread on the board and dragging it off-topic to rant at us again with her sick message. I'm also finding it hard to find any sympathy for someone who absolutely refuses to help themselves, even when help is offered. She's sticking her fingers in her ears and yelling "LA-LA-LA-I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!" at the top of her lungs. Her flailing tantrums are hurting people, and she can't see the pain she's causing (or refuses to acknowledge it, but I can't even accuse her of being that deliberatly cruel because I don't think she can see it, since that would require her to understand and accept a viewpoint that's different from her own).

I wish she would be banned already. Yes, I know, censorship is bad, yada yada. But she's so completely off-topic most of the time that she derails all other constructive debates. She's rude and thoughtless and is insulting other posters. I've never heard her apologize for any of it. She's bad for the board, bad for her religion, and bad for herself.

I suggest that whenever she pops into a thread and makes an off-topic comment just to preach again that we ignore her as if she never said anything. She can't be reasoned with and isn't willing to try to understand anything beyond her own preaching. So, like a pushy child, she should be ignored until she can behave herself.

My $.04 (it's too long a rant for two cents). YMMV

[Madalch]

First of all, learn to spell, dammit.
What do you expect from someone who listens to books being read -to- them instead of reading them for themselves?

I've tried audio books, and I just can't see how anyone can absorb anything from them. Which is probably why KK prefers them.

[Hokulele]

I suggest that whenever she pops into a thread and makes an off-topic comment just to preach again that we ignore her as if she never said anything. She can't be reasoned with and isn't willing to try to understand anything beyond her own preaching. So, like a pushy child, she should be ignored until she can behave herself.


Good points. And if she really is derailing a thread, those posts can be reported.

[Roadtoad]

You are just a scary, scary woman and and a role model for every battered wife who puts up with her husband's abuse. Can't you see how dangerous your brand of non-questioning obedience is?

No, SC, she can't, or won't. Kathy is convinced that if she thinks for herself, Jesus won't love her anymore. :(

[Nursefoxfire]

First of all, learn to spell, dammit.

Second, how dare you? You have repeatedly shown yourself to be one of the most hateful, arrogant, self-centered posters on this board. Your whole attitude is one of self-righteousness, "Look at me! I'm so holy, suffering for Jesus as I'm witnessing to those horrible atheists at JREF!"

Oh, please. You demonstrate time and again why no one in their right mind would listen to the blather of Rapture Ready, (and yes, I've read it, and it's far more disturbing than anything you can imagine), and why it's so repugnant to the rest of us.

At what point, Kathy, do you GET IT?

When I was a believer, I used to pray to God that if my actions were an affront to the lost, if I did anything that might cost another person their salvation, that I would be the one sent to Hell, not them. What, pray tell, in your actions or words indicates that kind of willingness to accept your responsibilities for your actions? Nothing, from this vantage point; you're simply here to look good for your fellow "believers" back home.

At NO POINT have you really read the Bible. If you had, you might have realized that the point of the Book of Revelation was that God is victorious in the end. There are people enduring far worse than anything listed in the Book of Revelation, some of them doing so for the sake of Christ. It has NOTHING to do with a coming "Rapture," and that the whole business of a "Rapture" is simply one more way for certain "Christians" to avoid their very public (and very real) responsibilities in this world. "See? I don't have to help shelter the homeless, or feed the hungry. There's wars and rumors of war, and all kinds of natural disasters. JESUS is coming soon, and so I'll just sit here on my ass and wait for him to take me home."

It's a pant-load. You ignore the realities that in centuries past, Christians built hospitals, schools, shelters, farms, and they served their communities with humility and gratitude. You, on the other hand, come here and bleat your "sermons," ignoring the damage you do to your own testimony, (which is a frigging crock), and the damage you do to the long-respected history of Christianity's service to the nations. You become an embarrassment to groups such as Voice of the Martyrs and Open Doors.

Let me tell you something: I've actually met Brother Andrew, (the author of God's Smuggler.) He's one of the gutsiest men I've ever met, and someone I respect, and will respect, as long as I live. He doesn't talk the Gospel, he lives it. His actions are not just centered on preaching the Bible, but on working for the civil liberties of ALL people. His concern goes far beyond converting people to Jesus, but making sure they can live in liberty. It extends beyond one particular belief system. His actions are designed to help all people, because if he only helps those who agree with him, what value is there to his words and his work?

That, Kathy, is called INTEGRITY. You have none. Why should we listen to you when you have insulted us, when you have degraded us, and when you insult with your words and actions the Christian family members we love? You humiliate people we respect with your constant riff about salvation, something you have clearly no interest in seeing anyone here achieving. I honestly think you'd be groovin' on the notion of watching us drop into the Lake of Fire, one by one. That's a sick piece of business, if you ask me, (not that you did.)

Your words might have carried some weight at one point, but not in the past couple of years. Your actions have shown you lack anything resembling compassion, courtesy, or courage. If anything, you've shown your words to be nothing more than waste, (and that's being polite).

I'm tired of reading your continual rambling about a God of whom you know nothing, and have even less interest in learning about. This is some sort of power trip for you, and it's insulting to continue to read this blather from you.

Do yourself a favor: Just once, read the Bible, the whole way through, and do it on your own, without someone coaching you. Think for yourself, for once in your life.

And at the very least, start acting like a Christian.

*Stands up
*Applauds

[Nursefoxfire]

No God is good.
[...]


Well, that's a first. I actually agree with KK on something! :p

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=Roadtoad;4649132] JESUS is coming soon, and so I'll just sit here on my ass and wait for him to take me home."



I suspect this sums up the whole thing in 25 words or less.

Most of the RR posters seem to have the same problems we all do. Bad marriages-alcoholism-drug addiction-health problems-job & financial problems....

Let's face it though--dealing with these problems in the here & now is not easy.

It's not easy to go back to school & learn something new.

It's not easy to end a marriage.

It's not easy to stop booze/tobacco/drugs/fatty foods etc etc.

It's not easy to start excercising & eating right.

It's so much easier to pass all these things off as being part of gods master plan.

"God gave me bad health to test me-blah blah blah".....nothing I can do about it....but hey--I'm saved so in a few months--I'll be flying up into to the air to a magical place where everything is just peachy all the time.

No need to make all those painfull changes and do all that hard work that is often necessary to improve our lives.

There was a post there awhile back from someone asking if he should skip his scheduled surgury---since he was probably going to be raptured out of the whole mess within a few months.

It was pretty disturbing to see the # of people who agreed that there was no point in bothering with the surgery.

It reminds me of the scene in Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence wants to go back into the desert to save his friend who fell off his camel. He's told not to-he'd be risking his own life--and since it's gods will that he fell off the goddamned camel---he should just let it go at that.

An excuse to sit on your ass and a free pass into heaven with an 11th hr repentance---even if you've been a total jerk all your life.

It's actually surprising there aren't more people swallowing this bilge than there are..

[Ducky]

Hey now, I actually do put salt on my porridge, but I'm only a quarter Scottish, so perhaps I don't count.

I'm half scottish and do both based on the whim of my mood that day.

[six7s]

I'm half scottish and do both based on the whim of my mood that day.I'm a quarter Scots and, for three months every year, my favourite colour is tartan

[steve s]

and here's another reference in scripture that seems even more clear about there is most certainly a rapture that will happen.

1 Thes. 4:13-18 The Coming of the Lord
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The bolded part should make it obvious, even to KK, that the person who wrote this was convinced the second coming would occur during his life, just as convinced as KK is that the second coming will occur during her life.

Steve S.

[SezMe]

This is her biggest problem and why she has so much trouble here. <snip remainder of good stuff>
I disagree with the banning -- your idea of simply ignoring her is spot on.

That said, very, very good post.

[slingblade]

She uses the same lines here that were used on me by Christians to justify my ex's cheating and hitting.

I could get all indignant and try to get her to see that men aren't women's natural superiors, because there is no such thing. I could try to get her to see that what she's saying is a control mechanism she's eagerly bought into, because she wants to be controlled, so she doesn't have to do the hard work of thinking for herself. I could spout all kinds of froth and wrath about perpetuating sexism, and let her know that right now, probably on her very block, there's a woman being hit in the face by her Christian husband because she isn't properly submitting.

But the one who needs to hear it won't listen, and the ones who will listen don't need to hear it. So what's the point?

[six7s]

So what's the point?The point is that not all of us fit into the either/or camps...

Some of us have friends, neighbours, etc who are being assaulted by their husbands and we need a wake-up call to act

Please sling, keep up the good work

[yodaluver28]

Originally Posted by yodaluver28 http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4646128#post4646128)
I can't tell you what it meant to me to get an apology from my father for it when I finally told him how it tormented me as a child.




Was he religious when he gave the apology? If so, why did he apologize, wouldn't he think "I just told my child the truth"?

Yes, he was still religious when he apologized although nowhere near as fundamentalist as he had once been. He apologized because I don't think he ever realized how painful those things were for us to hear at such a young age until I told him. I also don't think he ever imagined how counterproductive to his intentions it was. He obviously wanted us to believe what he said was all true because he believed that it was but all it made me do was hope and eventually believe that he was dead wrong.

[Lord Emsworth]

First of all, learn to spell, dammit.

Yeah Kathy, some people might not understand you ohterwise.

[JetLeg]

Can I ask something?

I started this thread. I would prefer that the OP would be discussed in it. I do not wish thread to become a discussion with KK. If you want to, you are free to start a new one.

I do not demand that; but I politely ask.

[kurious_kathy]

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who also know in their hearts they are right. You would probably say they are condemned to hell for not accepting Jesus as the son of God and his sacrifice for our sins made in your narrative. They would say this was rather your fate. They have the Quran, which they say is the final word of God. It seems one group must be very wrong so can we rely on our feelings?

How could anyone determine if this feeling of certainty was coming from God, their own wishful thinking, the Matrix, Satan or other mischevious entity?

I know the Bible is the inspired word of God, but the Quran most certainly is not!

[kurious_kathy]

Can I ask something?

I started this thread. I would prefer that the OP would be discussed in it. I do not wish thread to become a discussion with KK. If you want to, you are free to start a new one.

I do not demand that; but I politely ask.

This is fine with me. I love talking about the rapture and things pertaining to the end of times. What I am most upset with these days is what Obama is doing. He wants me to be considered a terrorist for this belief? I am in no way harming people when I warn people of judgement day. Jesus is coming and the Lord asks people to receive him and repent to be saved. How the heck does this belief make me a terrorist?? Why doesn't Obama focus on protecting us from the real terrorists who send bombs???

[Sideroxylon]

I know the Bible is the inspired word of God, but the Quran most certainly is not!

Nice dodge of the question.

[paximperium]

I know the Bible is the inspired word of God, but the Quran most certainly is not!
Why?

[Lucian]

Why?

Because she knows. Duh. And as for those crazy, wacky, goofy Muslims who think the Quran is true, well they're wrong, because it's not true. Double duh.

[paximperium]

Because she knows. Duh. And as for those crazy, wacky, goofy Muslims who think the Quran is true, well they're wrong, because it's not true. Double duh.
Well according to KK the vast majority of Christians(ie. Catholics) are also wrong and doomed to hell.

[Lucian]

Well according to KK the vast majority of Christians(ie. Catholics) are also wrong and doomed to hell.
Well, sure, because she has it right and they have it wrong. We know this to be the case because she's told us. I mean, the logic's absolutely infallible.


Or am I just having a stroke?

[JetLeg]

Can I ask something?

I started this thread. I would prefer that the OP would be discussed in it. I do not wish thread to become a discussion with KK. If you want to, you are free to start a new one.

I do not demand that; but I politely ask.

Ah, I'm sorry - I didn't notice that KK is actually discussing the rapture.

Just please keep it focused on the rapture, and do not dive into other topics, since you won't come to an agreement. Ever.

[Ladewig]

This is fine with me. I love talking about the rapture and things pertaining to the end of times. What I am most upset with these days is what Obama is doing. He wants me to be considered a terrorist for this belief? I am in no way harming people when I warn people of judgement day. Jesus is coming and the Lord asks people to receive him and repent to be saved. How the heck does this belief make me a terrorist?? Why doesn't Obama focus on protecting us from the real terrorists who send bombs???

I do not understand what you are saying. How is talking about the Rapture related to Obama's definition of terrorism?

[Autolite]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

"It's not the heat but it's the humidity"

[JetLeg]

Anyway, this was the person's from the OP reply to the rest :

To all of you, thank you, so very much. I greatly appreciate all of your words of cousel, and I'm thankful for your prayers. I will continue to pray to, and I will trust God. After all, this is in His hands, and His hands are ones of compassion, justice and mercy. He will know what to do, and I am glad for that.

I am dissapointed in him.

[kurious_kathy]

Kurious_kathy, do you believe that it is an active decision to believe in your god? Or is it up to this god to "do something supernaturally" to make people open to receive him, as you put it? Those statements seem contradictory to me.

I'm an atheist, so I'm just trying to understand how you perceive this. :)

Both. I had been taught the Bible a bit years ago but fell away from living a life of faith over 15 years and somehow after I came to the end of my self destruct mode Jesus intervened in my life in a very powerful "supernatural" way. It was at my lowest point in life Jesus came to turn my life back around to walk in the light of his truth. He saved me from more than I can even begin to tell you.

Sin is an ugly thing but when Jesus grants a person the gift of repentance it's a gift to be able to confess and ask his forgiveness. God is faithful to forgive our sins when we confess!
I am now one of his disciples but I am only saved by his grace.

[kurious_kathy]

I am not sure why I am asking this but what the hell. Why would it be of concern? What difference does it make? Is one only saved if all the doctrines are right? Makes the Jesus thing totally pointless if that is the case.

One does not have to be a scholar to be saved, I'll vouch for that. But one thing I know for a fact, we all must believe Jesus is who he says he is.

Jesus is the only Son of God, no other way to the Father except through Christ! All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!

[Roadtoad]

One does not have to be a scholar to be saved, I'll vouch for that. But one thing I know for a fact, we all must believe Jesus is who he says he is.

Jesus is the only Son of God, no other way to the Father except through Christ! All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!

So, since there is no Father, the way through Jesus is the way to nowhere.

If I wanted to go nowhere fast, perhaps I could pray quickly.

[kurious_kathy]

Well according to KK the vast majority of Christians(ie. Catholics) are also wrong and doomed to hell.

No I am concerned they are condemed for sharing a different Jesus than the risen Lord.

Scripture warnes us in 2 Corinthians11:3-5 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."

The eucharist Christ is not Jesus. The teachings in the Catholic church are very wrong. We are never told to pray to anyone but God, NOT Mary. We are to confess to eachother yes and Jesus but to think the Pope is your holy father is wrong. Jesus said do not call anyone father but God. And there are many more wrong doctrines in the Catholic church. Try reading some of Dave Hunts books and Roger Oakland.

To be a bit more blunt, Catholicism is a manamde religion which is not of God. Catholics go through the motion but all their rituals are surely not going to save them. It is by grace alone that anyone is saved, NOT works!

But on a good note I pray for Catholics to be capable of having a true saving faith. Some even call themselves born again Catholics. But if you are filled with the Holy Spirit I do not see how you can stay in the Catholic church.

[Roadtoad]

No I am concerned they are condemed for sharing a different Jesus than the risen Lord.

Scripture warnes us in 2 Corinthians11:3-5 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."

The eucharist Christ is not Jesus. The teachings in the Catholic church are very wrong. We are never told to pray to anyone but God, NOT Mary. We are to confess to eachother yes and Jesus but to think the Pope is your holy father is wrong. Jesus said do not call anyone father but God. And there are many more wrong doctrines in the Catholic church. Try reading some of Dave Hunts books and Roger Oakland.

To be a bit more blunt, Catholisiscm is a manamde religion which is not of God. Catholics go through the motion but all their rituals are surely not going to save them. It is by grace alone that anyone is saved, NOT works!

You have no evidence your beliefs aren't man-made either. And you've yet to honestly and directly answer anyone's questions. You still haven't read the book Hokulele asked you about, even though you said you would. You lie constantly, which makes me wonder if anything you say has even a mote of truth.

More wasted bandwidth from Kurious Kathy, I'm afraid.

[Hokulele]

It is by grace alone that anyone is saved, NOT works!


Which is precisely why some people find your version of Christianity to be completely amoral.

[Ducky]

No I am concerned they are condemed for sharing a different Jesus than the risen Lord.

Scripture warnes us in 2 Corinthians11:3-5 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."

The eucharist Christ is not Jesus. The teachings in the Catholic church are very wrong. We are never told to pray to anyone but God, NOT Mary. We are to confess to eachother yes and Jesus but to think the Pope is your holy father is wrong. Jesus said do not call anyone father but God. And there are many more wrong doctrines in the Catholic church. Try reading some of Dave Hunts books and Roger Oakland.

To be a bit more blunt, Catholicism is a manamde religion which is not of God. Catholics go through the motion but all their rituals are surely not going to save them. It is by grace alone that anyone is saved, NOT works!

But on a good note I pray for Catholics to be capable of having a true saving faith. Some even call themselves born again Catholics. But if you are filled with the Holy Spirit I do not see how you can stay in the Catholic church.

In other words you don't feel the need to do anything at all, just sit around and talk to yourself and you judge us?

HA!

"Upon further review, Margaret decided to accept the money." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns)

[kurious_kathy]

You have no evidence your beliefs aren't man-made either. And you've yet to honestly and directly answer anyone's questions. You still haven't read the book Hokulele asked you about, even though you said you would. You lie constantly, which makes me wonder if anything you say has even a mote of truth.

More wasted bandwidth from Kurious Kathy, I'm afraid.

Hi Rt. I know you choose to come against me no matter what I say. Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD! Not recommending it to anyone, ever!

But no matter what you say to me, God loves you and so do I!

[Ducky]

Hi Rt. I know you choose to come against me no matter what I say. Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD! Not recommending it to anyone, ever!

But no matter what you say to me, God loves you and so do I!

Fairly certain that you didn't read the book. Pretty sure you threw it in the bonfire at your local book burning, also.

[Roadtoad]

Hi Rt. I know you choose to come against me no matter what I say. Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD! Not recommending it to anyone, ever!

But no matter what you say to me, God loves you and so do I!

No, you don't. You have no respect for me, you have no regard for what I say. You lie when you say you've read the book, because you've admitted that you haven't already. You have no love for anyone here because you LIE to us, constantly. You take no action to help others, save what will look good for your friends. You're pharisaical nonsense is about as useful as a plastic pink flamingo stuck out in the front lawn.

You can say you love us, but your actions say otherwise. You're a liar. You don't even believe there's a god.

[joobz]

Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD!
What an insightful critique. You convinced me that Ehrman is completely wrong. Good Job! It is impossible to argue with you're well reasoned and detailed analysis.


oh, wait..

[paximperium]

No I am concerned they are condemed for sharing a different Jesus than the risen Lord.
<Snip decrease the preaching nonsense>
But on a good note I pray for Catholics to be capable of having a true saving faith. Some even call themselves born again Catholics. But if you are filled with the Holy Spirit I do not see how you can stay in the Catholic church. So in a roundabout fashion, KK believes that Catholics(more than half of all Christians) are doomed to hell.

[paximperium]

Hi Rt. I know you choose to come against me no matter what I say. Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD! Not recommending it to anyone, ever!
I don't believe you. No one here does.

But no matter what you say to me, God loves you and so do I!
Why should anyone believe you now after all your lies?

[kurious_kathy]

In other words you don't feel the need to do anything at all, just sit around and talk to yourself and you judge us?

HA!

"Upon further review, Margaret decided to accept the money." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns)

If you are feeling judged that is not coming from me but the one who made you. I pray you'll have a change of heart to want to receive Christ by faith. He is the one we all need.

[Roadtoad]

So in a roundabout fashion, KK believes that Catholics(more than half of all Christians) are doomed to hell.

You expected otherwise?

And she's GROOVIN' on it, too! Why does anyone listen to this woman?

(Oh, wait. Why am I listening to her...?)

[Roadtoad]

If you are feeling judged that is not coming from me but the one who made you. I pray you'll have a change of heart to want to receive Christ by faith. He is the one we all need.

Ah, more useless waste of words.

How about this, Kathy: Why don't you start TELLING THE FRIGGING TRUTH FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE!?!?! Why don't you quit LYING TO EVERYONE BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO THINK WE'RE A BUNCH OF GOD DAMNED MORONS!?!?!?!

[Ducky]

Hi Rt. I know you choose to come against me no matter what I say. Yes I did read that book and believe it to be BAD! Not recommending it to anyone, ever!

But no matter what you say to me, God loves you and so do I!

What a crock.

The only thing you've shown us that you are in love with the sound of your own preaching.

[Nogbad]

One does not have to be a scholar to be saved, I'll vouch for that. But one thing I know for a fact, we all must believe Jesus is who he says he is.

Jesus is the only Son of God, no other way to the Father except through Christ! All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!

Not exactly as clear as an answer as I hoped.

I take you are saying that whether one believes in the "rapture" (not a word that actually appears in the Bible) interpretation or not it is fairly irrelevant to the more central issues and isn't that much of a concern really.

[kurious_kathy]

So in a roundabout fashion, KK believes that Catholics(more than half of all Christians) are doomed to hell.

I believe what scripture says, "narrow is the way and few who find it." Do I like knowing this? No I want more people to come to know Christ. This truly is all that matters in my life anymore. Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

[Ducky]

I believe what scripture says, "narrow is the way and few who find it." Do I like knowing this? No I want more people to come to know Christ. This truly is all that matters in my life anymore. Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Get working on that for us, ok?

[joobz]

"Upon further review, Margaret decided to accept the money." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns)
Oh dear me. She didn't seem to be very happy.

[Roadtoad]

I believe what scripture says, "narrow is the way and few who find it." Do I like knowing this? No I want more people to come to know Christ. This truly is all that matters in my life anymore. Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

In other words, you're a coward.

You have no courage to go out and serve others. You're just going to sit around and wait for Jesus to take you out of here.

Funny how you're willing to ignore Paul's words, "He that does not work, neither shall he eat."

I was right. You're a waste of time.

[paximperium]

I believe what scripture says, "narrow is the way and few who find it." Do I like knowing this? No I want more people to come to know Christ. This truly is all that matters in my life anymore. Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
So the answer from KK is a definite-yes. "More than half of all Christians and all Non-Christians are doomed to hell."

If that is the case, you've fallen off the cliff a long time ago. Your god is evil. Truly evil and even if you could prove that such a tyrannical being existed, I would oppose it. I would fight to destroy your god.

[kurious_kathy]

What a crock.

The only thing you've shown us that you are in love with the sound of your own preaching.
No ducky, I am in love with the living God. I truly know him through Christ. You can too if you would just try to take a leap of faith. Jesus died to save this world from hell. It wasn't for nothing that Jesus died. He loves you!

[Roadtoad]

No ducky, I am in love with the living God. I truly know him through Christ. You can too if you would just try to take a leap of faith. Jesus died to save this world from hell. It wasn't for nothing that Jesus died. He loves you!

He doesn't exist. Your lies and your inaction prove it.

[paximperium]

No ducky, I am in love with the living God. I truly know him through Christ. You can too if you would just try to take a leap of faith. Jesus died to save this world from hell. It wasn't for nothing that Jesus died. He loves you!
That's kind of creepy...like a weird stalker who will break your legs to prove his love.

[Roadtoad]

That's kind of creepy...like a weird stalker who will break your legs to prove his love.

Or the kind who'd throw acid in your face to prove his love. I think there's a thread about this.

[joobz]

No ducky, I am in love with the living God. I truly know him through Christ. You can too if you would just try to take a leap of faith. Jesus died to save this world from hell. It wasn't for nothing that Jesus died. He loves you!
This is the same god who wiped everyone out in a flood.
Destroyed cities he felt were "evil".
Said it was good to kill children.
Killed all the first born of Egypt.
Condoned Slavery.

This is the god who loves us?

[Ducky]

This is the same god who wiped everyone out in a flood.
Destroyed cities he felt were "evil".
Said it was good to kill children.
Killed all the first born of Egypt.
Condoned Slavery.

This is the god who loves us?

...killed fig trees in a spat. That's totally not earth-friendly.

[gentlehorse]

So in a roundabout fashion, KK believes that Catholics(more than half of all Christians) are doomed to hell.


A pretty common belief among the spirit-filled in these parts-- They make no bones about it: Catholics are not Christians and are doomed to the everlasting fires of Hell, where the worm dieth not, or some such...

It's also fairly common that they know little of the history of their own churches and have not read the bible, cover to cover, for themselves.

Funny folk, the spirit-filled...

[joobz]

...killed fig trees in a spat. That's totally not earth-friendly.
Spoke in riddles to intentionally hide his message and not let the dumb ones in.

[kurious_kathy]

Not exactly as clear as an answer as I hoped.

I take you are saying that whether one believes in the "rapture" (not a word that actually appears in the Bible) interpretation or not it is fairly irrelevant to the more central issues and isn't that much of a concern really.

There are many different views on the return of Christ. I do not see it the way preterist do at all, I think they are missing something. The Word of God is discerned through the Holy Spirit so unless you have the gift of the Holy Spirit perhaps you cannot get this insight?

I see the Bible speaks clear on the rapture. In the twinkiling of an eye we will be changed when the trumpet sounds. I'm excited about it, I just hope I live long enough.

[Roadtoad]

There are many different views on the return of Christ. I do not see it the way preterist do at all, I think they are missing something. The Word of God is discerned through the Holy Spirit so unless you have the gift of the Holy Spirit perhaps you cannot get this insight?

I see the Bible speaks clear on the rapture. In the twinkiling of an eye we will be changed when the trumpet sounds. I'm excited about it, I just hope I live long enough.

Unfortunately for us, you probably will. :rolleyes:

Seriously, Kathy, you actually are enjoying the thought that people you don't know will suffer through seven years of literal Hell on Earth. That marks you as one sick puppy.

You, madam, are welcome to your Apocalypse. The rest of us will work to prevent it, thank you, even as you do whatever labor you can to bring it to us.

[joobz]

I see the Bible speaks clear on the rapture. In the twinkiling of an eye we will be changed when the trumpet sounds. I'm excited about it, I just hope I live long enough.
Actually, the spirit told me that Satan has deluded all of the fundementalists into thinking they are doing god's work. The worship of the rapture (an event where people will be wisked away so that all others can be killed horribly) is perfect example of the self-serving nature of satan. It's interesting how fundementalists simply don't see this obvious taint of the dark one on them.

[Mark6]

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.
Whenever I hear the phrase "Rapture Ready", I can't help thinking of the line in the musical "Honk!" where all the barnyard birds are singing "till we're plucked and oven ready".

[kurious_kathy]

Why?
The Bible has never been disproved. It has accurately fullfilled prophecies, many archaeology finds to validate it, and more.

If you are truly open to find this question answered more in detail go to this website as Charlie Campbell is someone most of you can relate to. He's was just like many of you here on jref and has documented much of his journey from atheism to faith.
Here's a link the the 5 questions most skeptics ask...
http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71

[Roadtoad]

Safe-Keeper is right. The site is a disgusting example of self-flagellating fundamentalists engaged in mental masturbation of the lowest sort, celebrating the miserable end of innocents, and the destruction of all that is worthwhile about our lives, particularly the relationships we've built over the course of our lives.

If the "saved" are so desperate for the end, there's nothing stopping them from leaving this life of their own accord.

[Roadtoad]

The Bible has never been disproved. It has accurately fullfilled prophecies, many archeology finds to validate it, and more.
If you are truly open to find this question answered more in detail go to this website as Charlie Campbell is someone most of you can relate to. He's was just like many of you here on jref and has documented much of his journey from atheism to faith.
Here's a link the the 5 questions most skeptics ask...
http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71

Already familiar with them. No, the Bible hasn't been "disproved," but there's no evidence that it's true, either.

And your word's worthless, Kathy. You LIE.

[six7s]

This is the same god who wiped everyone out in a flood.
Destroyed cities he felt were "evil".
Said it was good to kill children.
Killed all the first born of Egypt.
Condoned Slavery.

This is the god who loves us?Nope...only some of us

http://www.godhatestheworld.com/common/images/john316banner.gif
(http://www.godhatestheworld.com/common/html/john316.html)John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That says God loves everyone, right? Wrong. <snip/>

... so-called Christians today are far too simple-minded and lazy to look into the matter. So we'll do it for you: the word translated "world" in John 3:16 is the Greek word "kosmos." The word never means "every individual of mankind who ever lived." <snip/>

You'll say "but doesn't 'whosoever believes' mean that everybody has the chance to believe?" Nope. <snip/>

...the only people who can believe are the ones whom God has ordained to eternal life. <snip/>

If you have not been ordained to eternal life, that means you are not one of His sheep, you NEVER will believe and are already condemned.

What I've told you here is the only interpretation that makes sense, because that is the only interpretation that is consistent with the rest of the Scripture. For example, God hated Esau! Romans 9:13. And He didn't just hate him - He hated him before he was even born and had done neither good nor evil! Romans 9:11. If He hates a person, He doesn't love everyone. For another example, there are billions of people in hell. If He loves those people, what a peculiar way of showing it!

Our message to this evil world is that God hates you, and you better prepare for the return of Christ in power and glory. <snip/>

Also see "God Loves Everyone" - The Greatest Lie Ever Told (http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/reports/20060331_god-loves-everyone-lie.pdf), which includes 701 passages from the Bible proving God's hatred and wrath for most of mankind.

Source: www.godhatestheworld.com (http://www.godhatestheworld.com/common/html/john316.html)

YMMV :)

[Achán hiNidráne]

This is the god who loves us?

Yahweh is like an abusive spouse, he only damns us to the HELLFIRE because he loves us. ;)

[Lucian]

A pretty common belief among the spirit-filled in these parts-- They make no bones about it: Catholics are not Christians and are doomed to the everlasting fires of Hell, where the worm dieth not, or some such...

It's also fairly common that they know little of the history of their own churches and have not read the bible, cover to cover, for themselves.

Funny folk, the spirit-filled...

So, these (literally) damned Catholics--would those be the same Catholics who more or less compiled the Bible that KK and other Catholic-haters like so much? Just curious.

[Roadtoad]

So, these (literally) damned Catholics--would those be the same Catholics who more or less compiled the Bible that KK and other Catholic-haters like so much? Just curious.

Yes. They just don't use the other 11 books of the Apocrypha.

[paximperium]

Already familiar with them. No, the Bible hasn't been "disproved," but there's no evidence that it's true, either.
I disagree. The Bible "disproves" itself.

[six7s]

The Bible "disproves" itself.If contradiction count as disproofs, then here's 425 of them:


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/images/sabtop.jpg (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)
skepticsannotatedbible.com : Contradictions in the Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)

[shadron]

Nope...only some of us

http://www.godhatestheworld.com/common/images/john316banner.gif


YMMV :)

Predestination lives. Who'da thunk it?

Well, KK you only need to worry whether you are of the elect or not. And you said the way is narrow, so your probability is small. Your prayers, efforts of will, promises - all to no avail. Sorry.

[gentlehorse]

So, these (literally) damned Catholics--would those be the same Catholics who more or less compiled the Bible that KK and other Catholic-haters like so much? Just curious.

Well, I wouldn't call KK a Catholic-hater. But the folks in this area who sound a lot like her exhibit little or no knowledge of Constantine, the Council of Nicea, Athanasius, the process of canonization, or, basically, any of the stuff that resulted in the compilation we affectionately call the Bible. So, yeah, those Catholics.

[gentlehorse]

I disagree. The Bible "disproves" itself.

Only if you read it...

[six7s]

No, the Bible hasn't been "disproved," but there's no evidence that it's true, eitherI disagree. The Bible "disproves" itself.Only if you read it...

Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4660671#post4660671) :p

[Roadtoad]

I disagree. The Bible "disproves" itself.

Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4660671#post4660671) :p

Beat you to it. :p

[Magyar]

I know it's evil of me, and I'm quit disturbed by the notion that I had this thought. I also know that it's evil of me to put this image in your head, but I just can't help myself : )


When ever I hear KK, or other nutters, talk about rapture
I get this metal image of them sitting hounched over in the corner of dark room laughing like Igor while bouncing up and down on somthing like this
http://www.stationhouse.com/outpost/includes/but_images/triple_threat.jpg

(note link my not be safe for work)
This is nothing new or unigue to xians. From the inquisition to the Inca's cutting peoples hearts out. You can't tell me that people could do that day in day out and not have a major chubby. But a certain seqmant of the human population has always been and I guess always will be into BDSM (evenif they are in the closet and call it gods punishment.)

[Terry]

Hey, us perverts are very upset about being compared to Christians!

[Roadtoad]

Hey, us perverts are very upset about being compared to Christians!

Well, where's the evidence you're a pervert?

[Niggle]

Anyway, this was the person's from the OP reply to the rest :



I am dissapointed in him.

Sounds to me like safely-wishy-washy words to get himself out of a jam. He/She has not committed to anything, has not admitted that all the "good" advice is correct, and has not actually accepted it. I think this person is just trying to get out of the discussion with a whole skin to be able to think about it clearly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this person started backing away from these poisonous opinions.

Not a clear win for sanity, but not a definite loss, either.

[Ladewig]

No ducky, I am in love with the living God.

If you really loved Christ you would follow His teachings. Matt 10:14 (http://bible.cc/matthew/10-14.htm)

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it.

[kurious_kathy]

If you really loved Christ you would follow His teachings. Matt 10:14 (http://bible.cc/matthew/10-14.htm)

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it.
And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back?? The Bible says men love their darkness more than the light because of their deeds. Do you think there may be some truth to this? I sure do.

[joobz]

Well, where's the evidence you're a pervert?
That's not a bicycle in her avatar....

[joobz]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back?? The Bible says men love their darkness more than the light because of their deeds. Do you think there may be some truth to this? I sure do.
I do too. that's the only reason why I can think you enjoy the idea of other people being tortured while you are wisked away. The rapture really is an evil wish.

[Roadtoad]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back?? The Bible says men love their darkness more than the light because of their deeds. Do you think there may be some truth to this? I sure do.

We DO love the truth. That's why we invest our time in the search for FACTS, and why we turn to science to find it. It's why we turn our attention to SERVING others, rather than ranting at them. It's why when we discover our deeds do damage to others, we quit doing them.

In other words, Kathy, we do what you do not. We face our fears, and go forward with courage to do what is RIGHT. What holds us back is clinging to superstition and silliness, hoping that some MAGIC might turn things around. We are learning to not pick and choose what facts we like and what facts we don't. We're learning to handle things in a manner that suggests rationality and integrity. You lack that kind of courage, Kathy, and so does CD. Basically, we have chosen to act like responsible adults.

You might want to try that sometime, Kathy. It might open your eyes to something wonderful.

[hcmom]

That's not a bicycle in her avatar....

It gets better. Terry is a he.

[Alareth]

It gets better. Terry is a he.

But damn ... just look at those legs

[Ladewig]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back??

Hmm, that's a tough one. Where can I find the answer to that question? I know, it appears in every one of the several dozen threads you have started over the past several years. I and other posters have been carefully explaining our issues with the Bible, but you are incapable of listening. There is one Bible truth I agre with: there are none so deaf as they that will not hear.

I cannot think of a worse person to carry God's message than you. You are incapable of listening to even the simplest of responses. Forum readers on the fence are far more likely to listen to us than they are to listen to you.

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it. To do anything else is simply pridefulness on your part.

[Ladewig]

The Bible says men love their darkness more than the light because of their deeds. Do you think there may be some truth to this? I sure do.


No, Kathy. I have not committed any sin that requires a blood sacrifice. I am a good person who does not "love darkness more that light." I see no truth to your claim.

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it. To do anything else is simply pridefulness on your part.

[Hokulele]

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it. To do anything else is simply pridefulness on your part.


Or, she could take me up on my latest challenge (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4660847#post4660847).

[Roadtoad]

Hmm, that's a tough one. Where can I find the answer to that question? I know, it appears in every one of the several dozen threads you have started over the past several years. I and other posters have been carefully explaining our issues with the Bible, but you are incapable of listening. There is one Bible truth I agre with: there are none so deaf as they that will not hear.

I cannot think of a worse person to carry God's message than you. You are incapable of listening to even the simplest of responses. Forum readers on the fence are far more likely to listen to us than they are to listen to you.

There is no shame in walking away, Kathy. Go carry the message that you hold so dear to people who are ready to receive it. To do anything else is simply pridefulness on your part.

Fixed it for you.

[Roadtoad]

Or, she could take me up on my latest challenge (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4660847#post4660847).

If she does, I want to see this.

[Hokulele]

If she does, I want to see this.


I wouldn't dream of keeping it from you. It is pretty much the same challenge I offered to Jesus_Freak a couple of years ago. Strange that he hasn't been seen much since then...

I mean, it's not like I asked him to read Dawkins or anything.

[slingblade]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back??

My desire for honesty.
The fact that I've been you.
That now, I cherish my freedom and my reason.


The Bible says men love their darkness more than the light because of their deeds. Do you think there may be some truth to this? I sure do.

I sit and watch movies while I make beaded bookmarks.
I take care of my two cats, wash my dishes, cook tasty meals, and sometimes make love with my husband. I mourn my mom, admire my sons, and anticipate my newest granddaughter next month.


Send me to hell. I'm what's wrong with the world.

[slingblade]

"The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned ...Our hymns were loaded with arrogance -- self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day."

(Robert A. Heinlein, from Laurence J. Peter, Peter's Quotations: Ideas for Our Time)

[SezMe]

kk wins the thread. Like so many others, it drifts into being all about her and, post after post, the same rebuttals are made and she gets to blabber all about herself, post after post.

Don't feed the troll.

[slingblade]

Oh, please. If you call Kathy's laying out a buffet of religious crazy, augmented by drooping bouquets of cruelty, and festooned with banners of arrogance for all to see, then yeah. I guess she has won.

I imagine the Pyrrhic gelatin mold is as bitter as it looks. :p

[Skeptic Ginger]

kk wins the thread. Like so many others, it drifts into being all about her and, post after post, the same rebuttals are made and she gets to blabber all about herself, post after post.

Don't feed the troll.Well then, it won't matter this thread is on page 6 and I want to reply to page one. ;)



http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793...
Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.Actually, when I read that, I don't think that's what Christians should be like. I read, what does it take for Christians to recognize what a disgusting god they keep apologizing for.

[paximperium]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back?? YOU

[Flo]

And why can't you receive the love of the truth? What really holds you back??

The fact that there's no truth and certainly no love in you and your ilk, your arrogance, your cruelty, and your lies.

[Flo]

Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.


It seems that person has been thinking, and let's hope she'll keep at it.

[paximperium]

It seems that person has been thinking, and let's hope she'll keep at it.
I kind of support KK's preaching. Nothing drives people away more from theism than the crazy.

[Flo]

I kind of support KK's preaching. Nothing drives people away more from theism than the crazy.

True when addressed to thinking people. Unfortunately, it appeals to the kind of people who are vulnerable due to circumstances that have lowered or destroyed their self-esteem.

Cases in point to me are two women I've known who had both been in an abusive relationship, one with a guy who molested her daughter from a previous marriage, and who fell line, hook and sinker for the exact same kind of garbage KK is spouting ... in enlightened Switzerland :rolleyes:.

Only when presented with better perspectives for their lives (and the child abuser having been jailed) did they start regaining enough sense of self worth in order to get away from that hateful cult ...

[Delvo]

It seems that person has been thinking, and let's hope she'll keep at it.Indeed, I was not expecting to see anyone call it "disappointing". Those posts look almost identical to how several JREF members have described themselves at some point in the past, just beginning to make a gradual turnaround. Knowing that that's how it worked in real life for people who are here now, why would anybody expect an immediate and total switch in thinking for others?

[Nogbad]

There are many different views on the return of Christ. I do not see it the way preterist do at all, I think they are missing something. The Word of God is discerned through the Holy Spirit so unless you have the gift of the Holy Spirit perhaps you cannot get this insight?

I see the Bible speaks clear on the rapture. In the twinkiling of an eye we will be changed when the trumpet sounds. I'm excited about it, I just hope I live long enough.

Sorry if it seems that I may be especially dense. However, if one can only discern the return in a millenarian way if one has the Holy Spirit what is the status of those who see it in preterist way? If they are missing the signs does that mean they do not have the Holy Spirit? If so does that mean they are not saved?

I am trying to determine whether there is a kind of tautology going on here. That is a, "my interpretation is the only correct one. If you had the Holy Spirit you would see that. How can you expect to go to Heaven if you don't have the Holy Spirit"...sort of thing.

(apologies to Pink Floyd)

[Tanstaafl]

Hey, Pink Floyd apologetics beats anything you'll find at Rapture Ready.

[six7s]

Hey, Pink Floyd apologetics beats anything you'll find at Rapture Ready.Wish You Were There?

[Ladewig]

kk wins the thread. Like so many others, it drifts into being all about her and, post after post, the same rebuttals are made and she gets to blabber all about herself, post after post.

Don't feed the troll.

If the person truly believes what she is posting, is she really a troll?

[SezMe]

Oh, please.
Yep. Your post is about kk as are the rest after yours except skeptigirl and the diversion about pink floyd. The OP has been virtually lost.

[SezMe]

If the person truly believes what she is posting, is she really a troll?
Dunno. But I stand by my point.

[six7s]

The OP has been virtually lost.Do you feel that there are there salient points in (and/or raised by) the OP that are yet to be addressed?

[SezMe]

Dunno...and I'm not willing to reread the entire thread in order to honestly answer your question. But I still stand by my assertion that by this point the OP is virtually lost and kk has virtually won. Worse, with this post I think I am contributing to that sorry state of affairs so I'll bow out unless I want to respond to a post related DIRECTLY to the OP.

[six7s]

kk has virtually wonkk couldn't win competing against Douglas Bader in an arse kicking contest

[Ralph]

going back to the original thread from Rapture Ready..

There's one post from someone who's noticed the thread has been posted on an "atheist
site."

He seems rather disturbed about it....but nice to see he's obviously been lurking over here.

I thought born again xtians were discouraged from hanging around "pagan" web sites.


This post is followed by one from a parent who seems very concerned about her children.

Apparently-they were once "with jesus"...but have since fallen away.

I could've sworn I've seen it posted on RR that once you've been saved----you're in.

It's kind of like tenure-----once they've hired you on--they can't get rid of you. Maybe not.

The lord works in mysterious ways after all.

At any rate---what a shame that a parent has to go through each day with the thought that their children are going to wind up being tortured forever.....just for not believing.
.

[Roadtoad]

going back to the original thread from Rapture Ready..

There's one post from someone who's noticed the thread has been posted on an "atheist
site."

He seems rather disturbed about it....but nice to see he's obviously been lurking over here.

I thought born again xtians were discouraged from hanging around "pagan" web sites.


This post is followed by one from a parent who seems very concerned about her children.

Apparently-they were once "with jesus"...but have since fallen away.

I could've sworn I've seen it posted on RR that once you've been saved----you're in.

It's kind of like tenure-----once they've hired you on--they can't get rid of you. Maybe not.

The lord works in mysterious ways after all.

At any rate---what a shame that a parent has to go through each day with the thought that their children are going to wind up being tortured forever.....just for not believing.
.

You're very correct, Ralph, that evangelical Christians are discouraged from coming to sites like this. Most of the time, when it's learned that they are, there are those within the church who take the time to "minister" to their falling brother/sister. Basically, the church comes in and "love-bombs" them back into submission, without really addressing what's wrong, and why the individual is leaving.

The exception, of course, is people like me who were never accepted, who were always shunted to the outside. If someone like me were to slide away from "god," then it was really no big loss, as I was never a part of the body of Christ. I always thought that was rather odd, but then, it's also to be expected, once you realize just how cultic Christianity has become in recent years.

I'm hopeful the person cited in the OP is, in fact, asking questions. That's the first step to escaping the mind control BS that grips people like Kathy and so many others. The Apostle Paul is said to have told Timothy to "study to show yourself approved." Most Christians want you to think that the only books that Timothy read were scripture, but it ignores critical points, such as Paul's visit to Mars Hill, and the fact that there was very little scripture to be had, unless you were an extraordinarily wealthy Jew with access to what we now know as the Old Testament. Personally, I think a real Christian would welcome the chance to read Dawkins, or Carl Sagan, if for no other reason than for the chance to "prove them wrong."

The problem is, you can't. Not if you're honest with yourself, and honest about what it is you believe. If you can't accept that kind of honesty, you stick to reading Bob Lepine, or Lee Strobel. You continue to read people who will reinforce your preconceived notions about what awaits you after death, ignoring the evidence that once you're gone, you're gone. It's a convenient fallacy, one which might make you feel better about denying the truth, but it results in the most damnable behavior.

What most Christians want to do, to cop a line from Mike Warnke, is polish their armor or fight each other. They aren't interested in doing what's right; that takes real work, and it means discarding a lot of illusions, such as the notion that God wants you to be a rich SOB, and requires you to deal with people who are unsightly, smelly, disagreeable, in pain, and suffering. It means Jesus' work as cited in the Bible must be continued in this age, which is expensive, uncomfortable, and sometimes dangerous. Hungry people, people who are suffering, prisoners, the naked, and the homeless, are not always the kind of company you find in a church on Sunday. They don't have Sunday best clothes to show up in.

There are Christians who do this kind of work. I knew many as I was attending churches in ages past, but I was also informed that my service was either not required, (in other words, Get Lost), or not welcome, (in other words, Get Lost.) It was part of someone's turf, and they wanted to defend it.

Not that my turf, such as it was, was safe from predation, and there were pastors who asked me to take on a task, only to do all they could to undercut me. After a while, it got old. And I was getting older, and not willing to put up with this continued bullsh**.

People like this have become obsessed about an apocalypse to come. I have no doubt that there will be one; man is far too stupid. But this isn't something I'm willing to wait for, nor is it something I see as positive. While the devout among the evangelicals are content to claim that memory of us will be blotted out once we've shuffled off to eternal misery, I never could bring myself to accept it. Maybe that's why I've been able to leave that kind of hateful lie. I am far too aware that there is real misery to be experienced by real people. I cannot turn my eyes away, and in part, the reason for this is I've seen what the members of this board can do when they get rocking. I have benefited from the help of others on this board, and I've seen how others have as well, and I can only look at the liars like Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy, DOC, Oneinchrist, and countless others who have come to preach and say simply, "You are damned well welcome to your apocalypse. I refuse to participate."

I choose to live.

Grovelling before some hairless ape who subjects the innocent to spiritual blackmail in the name of salvation is not my idea of Life. Life is making mistakes and learning from them. It's moving forward, not clinging to what's behind. It's about simplicity, not complex mind games and rituals. It's about fairness and justice, not manipulation and deceit.

It's about doing what's right, not endlessly discussing what we think is right. It's about courage, and it's about compassion. If the vicious clods who are pounding away at the author of the post cited in the OP had any compassion, they wouldn't be perpetuating the mental abuse that has become faith in Christ. There would be something that resembles hope, and nothing that would provoke a child to plead for death, a sure and certain sign that the whole business is one of abuse and cruelty.

There are better ways to live a life. I would hope the author would recognize that.

[Ralph]

It's about doing what's right, not endlessly discussing what we think is right. It's about courage, and it's about compassion. If the vicious clods who are pounding away at the author of the post cited in the OP had any compassion, they wouldn't be perpetuating the mental abuse that has become faith in Christ. There would be something that resembles hope, and nothing that would provoke a child to plead for death, a sure and certain sign that the whole business is one of abuse and cruelty.




The nature of one's religion seems to mirror the individuals nature. People who are at heart-selfish & cruel - tend to believe in a selfish & cruel god.

The group that you sense can't wait to sit around some heavenly amphitheatre and watch the "unsaved" be tortured...my guess is they were the kind of people who pulled the wings off of flys when they were kids....and actually enjoyed watching helpless things suffer for no reason.


Even without religion---they'd probably be rather unpleasant individuals overall.

People like the original poster who's concience bothered him about the suffering of others---my guess is in time--he's just not going to fit in with this brand of religion.

[Achán hiNidráne]

You're very correct...

<SNIP>

There are better ways to live a life. I would hope the author would recognize that.

Nominated.

[slingblade]

Yep. Your post is about kk as are the rest after yours except skeptigirl and the diversion about pink floyd. The OP has been virtually lost.

Threads are only contests, to win or lose?

I don't see them that way. I don't see KK's threads/posts that way.

I see them as buffets of crazy, as I said, which need to be seen to be appreciated for the lunacy that they are. KK shows posters here the ugliest side of faith, of religious fanatacism...a side that wouldn't be seen if she were ignored.

But if you see them as contests, you go ahead and play.
Just know that nobody "won" until you declared a winner.

[Roadtoad]

Slightly OT, here...

Kathy will stick her nose anywhere she thinks she can get a few lines of preaching in. She's a narcissist. To her, it's all about her, and what she believes. It's rather pathetic to watch, this kind of psychosis, but in the end, it can actually be tragically funny. It's like watching a train wreck; you can't stand to look, but you don't dare look away.

We now return you to your normal derail....

[Ducky]

the nature of one's religion seems to mirror the individuals nature. People who are at heart-selfish & cruel - tend to believe in a selfish & cruel god.

the group that you sense can't wait to sit around some heavenly amphitheatre and watch the "unsaved" be tortured...my guess is they were the kind of people who pulled the wings off of flys when they were kids....and actually enjoyed watching helpless things suffer for no reason.


Even without religion---they'd probably be rather unpleasant individuals overall.

people like the original poster who's concience bothered him about the suffering of others---my guess is in time--he's just not going to fit in with this brand of religion.

quoted and bolded for truth!

[Achán hiNidráne]

What really holds you back??

Let me see... what's holding me back... well...


Critical thinking.
A college level education in science, history, and philosophy that presents evidence that flies in the face of your religion.
The desire to make my own determination on issues of morality without it having it dictated to me by a bunch of Iron Age savages who's idea of right and wrong was stoning homosexuals, women who don't cry out during rape, and poor old men who are caught gathering firewood on certain days of the week.
The repugnant behavior of modern practitioners of your religion, from altar-boy-buggering priests and the bishops who cover for them, to abortion-clinic bombers and gay-bashers, to creationist school board members who fudge reality, to televangelists who talk old ladies out of their pensions in exchange for "faith healing," to former U.S. presidents who start wars because their invisible friend in the sky told them to...
The notion that I am some invisible being's plaything to be tortured and abused at its fickle whim and I'm suppose to "love" him for this.
The idea that I am guilty by association for a "crime" committed by an apocryphal woman who, despite not having the ability to know the difference between right and wrong in the first place, was conned into eating a piece of fruit BY A TALKING SNAKE and for this extremely dubious "crime" I deserve to be tortured for all eternity unless I sufficiently kiss your deity's ass.
The idea that I'm not allowed to think certain thoughts, read certain books, eat certain foods, love certain people, make love to them in certain ways, or even wear certain clothes because it would offend a being who is allegedly omnipotent.
The fact I like to sleep in on Sundays.
The idea that I should believe that someone could walking on liquid water, be magically brought back from the from the dead, and could mystically multiply foodstuffs insults my intelligence.
THERE IS NO ****** GOD!!!

Take your pick. Any of them will do.

[kurious_kathy]

YOU
No you cannot stand in front of God and use me as your excuse for denying him, that just will not fly! You must have a change of heart it's true and only the Lord can do that! I pray he saves you before it's too late!!

[six7s]

No you cannot stand in front of God Indeed

Nor can you

Simply because your god and all the other gods are MYTHS

[Lord Emsworth]

going back to the original thread from Rapture Ready..

There's one post from someone who's noticed the thread has been posted on an "atheist
site."

He seems rather disturbed about it....but nice to see he's obviously been lurking over here.

I thought born again xtians were discouraged from hanging around "pagan" web sites.

I eventually went and looked the RR thread, and the person who made the post about the "atheist site" seems to have signed up in order to make that post. At least there is, as of now, only one post to that person's account.

This post is followed by one from a parent who seems very concerned about her children.

Apparently-they were once "with jesus"...but have since fallen away.

I could've sworn I've seen it posted on RR that once you've been saved----you're in.

It's kind of like tenure-----once they've hired you on--they can't get rid of you. Maybe not.

I am not entirely sure you understand this bit of ... doctrine. Once you are saved you will not fall away. Everyone who does fall away was therefore never truly saved to begin with. ;)

[kurious_kathy]

Sorry if it seems that I may be especially dense. However, if one can only discern the return in a millenarian way if one has the Holy Spirit what is the status of those who see it in preterist way? If they are missing the signs does that mean they do not have the Holy Spirit? If so does that mean they are not saved?

I am trying to determine whether there is a kind of tautology going on here. That is a, "my interpretation is the only correct one. If you had the Holy Spirit you would see that. How can you expect to go to Heaven if you don't have the Holy Spirit"...sort of thing.

(apologies to Pink Floyd)

Well I do not want to make any harsh accusations on this one as I am not too prepared.

Charlie Campbell has many articles on his website that you may find useful in answering some of your questions? heres a link http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=51

[Ducky]

Well I do not want to make any harsh accusations on this one as I am not too prepared.

Really? Never stopped you before.

[Cuddles]

once you realize just how cultic Christianity has become in recent years.

Where "recent" is the last 2,000 or so years.:)

[paximperium]

No you cannot stand in front of God and use me as your excuse for denying him, that just will not fly! You must have a change of heart it's true and only the Lord can do that! I pray he saves you before it's too late!!
Keep it up KK. Your rants only drive people away. Nobody wants to be you. Nobody trusts you. Nobody believe anything you say. People revile you.

KK hardens the hearts of men.

[Ducky]

Keep it up KK. Your rants only drive people away. Nobody wants to be you. Nobody trusts you. Nobody believe anything you say. People revile you.

KK hardens the hearts of men.

To be clear so Kathy doesn't decide to add this to her martyr complex:

You are reviled not for your beliefs or your religion, but your decidedly cruel and obnoxious application of them.

[Evolved Wookie]

You must have a change of heart it's true and only the Lord can do that!

So, once again, you admit that we are damned purely on the whim of your capricious fairy?

...I will have a change of heart and find god once I have found god and he's changed my heart...

Grow up Kathy; try actually reading the things your type before you press the 'send' button - you might be distressed to discover that you routinely post utter...*tries to think of a word that won't breach Rule 10*...twaddle.

You are of course correct that you are not the soul reason for my non-acceptance of your badly-written cautionary tale/social control mechanism. You're simply not interesting enough to fulfil such a role. The laughable and peurile nature of it all is really what stands in my way; you are just a crystalisation of all of my negative expectations. Everything rotten that I suspect religion of doing to people is highlighted brilliantly and horribly in you.

I meant what I said in the other thred; think seriously about it...if there is a god and a devil and all that jazz like you like to believe, then you should seriously consider the notion that you are, in fact, a sleeper/double agent for Satan. You certainly ain't helping the cause of the Great White Beardy One.

As to the OP, it's nice to think that the poster at RR might be finding their way out of that medievil pit for the mind. With any luck they might find their way here and see just how great the real world is.

In the mean time, I shall stand in front of god (if he's omnipresent then I can't help but do so) and eat a Jaffa Cake. Mmmmmm - Jaffa Cake.

[Cayvmann]

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. .


The devil is our father???? Wow

[Mashuna]

Jesus said do not call anyone father but God.

How about my dad? Can I call him father? It seems a bit harsh if I can't. I mean, I don't usually, it's a bit formal, but still.

[Cayvmann]

You mean this God? For instance: Exodus 34:6, Deuteronomy 7:9-10, Titus 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.

But....then there is this:

2Thessalonians 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

You know these passages?

Well, at least they aren't blaming the devil for deluding people. I mean really, god made the devil and is infinitely more powerful, right? Poor devil

[Alareth]

I wonder what happens over there when someone over there hits post #666?

[kedo1981]

It is important to understand that every single Christian (and followers of all other religions) are really worshiping their own ego’s, that’s all they do.

[paiute]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

Sucks to be you!

[Belz...]

I know the Bible is the inspired word of God, but the Quran most certainly is not!

Really ? Says who ?

[Belz...]

Both. I had been taught the Bible a bit years ago but fell away from living a life of faith over 15 years and somehow after I came to the end of my self destruct mode Jesus intervened in my life in a very powerful "supernatural" way.

That's a very interesting claim. How, exactly, did he "intervene" ?

[Mr Clingford]

It is important to understand that every single Christian (and followers of all other religions) are really worshiping their own ego’s, that’s all they do.
I can only post quickly because it is almost time for the daily sacrifice to me, which I have decided is to be Weston's organic cider, as I am thirsty after mowing the lawn in the warm sun smiting the infidels.

[Belz...]

If you are feeling judged that is not coming from me but the one who made you.

Considering his actions in the past I don't find him qualified to judge anything.

I believe what scripture says, "narrow is the way and few who find it."

According to Revelations only 144,000 will be saved. I think all the spots are taken. See you in hell, sister.

I am in love with the living God. I truly know him through Christ.

Isn't Christ God ?

You can too if you would just try to take a leap of faith.

Same thing can be said of Buddha. It would be nice if you came to realize that all faiths are equal because they can all claim the same thing. Only evidence sets them apart.

It wasn't for nothing that Jesus died.

Again: HE DIDN'T DIE.

[Belz...]

Actually, the spirit told me that Satan has deluded all of the fundementalists into thinking they are doing god's work. The worship of the rapture (an event where people will be wisked away so that all others can be killed horribly) is perfect example of the self-serving nature of satan. It's interesting how fundementalists simply don't see this obvious taint of the dark one on them.

Indeed. It's all about "me, me, me!"

The Bible has never been disproved.

Have you checked the first chapter of Matthew and the first of Luke as I suggested ?

[Roadtoad]

No you cannot stand in front of God and use me as your excuse for denying him, that just will not fly! You must have a change of heart it's true and only the Lord can do that! I pray he saves you before it's too late!!

Sorry, Kathy, but if I had to guess, it probably would fly. You lie. You are a liar. How can we trust anything you say about your god when you can't even tell the truth about how you came here, or whether or not you even read a particular book?

You can pray all you like about us getting "saved," but the truth of the matter is you have so convoluted the whole issue to the point that no one would ever know the difference between salvation and damnation as you have defined them.

You lie. You are a liar. Even your onscreen name is a lie, since you're not even curious, (except in the pejorative), and I would question whether your name is even "Kathy." Frankly, you'd do greater good for your "faith" if you just went away and let the real Christians do what they do best. (I could wish I could get Peggy to sign on here.)

[Roadtoad]

I can only post quickly because it is almost time for the daily sacrifice to me, which I have decided is to be Weston's organic cider, as I am thirsty after mowing the lawn in the warm sun smiting the infidels.

OOH! OOH! Can I smite infidels, too!?!?

[Hokulele]

OOH! OOH! Can I smite infidels, too!?!?


You can have the infidels. I'd like some of the cider.

[Roadtoad]

You can have the infidels. I'd like some of the cider.

Yeah, but if you smite the infidels, you get the cider as a bonus. Plus a free toaster if you nail ten of them.