Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[kurious_kathy]

I pretty much knew that this would be your answer, since I've heard it before, but I wanted to be sure. So, let's look at the logic of your argument. If you belive in God and Jesus, you suffer for it. In your words, you enter a war zone. However, God could, but does not, stop this. Your words are: "I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do . . . ."

Frankly, any parent who allowed some fiend to torment their child, or any teacher who allowed a otrmentor to attack the children in his or her charge, would face criminal prosecution and would hadf the children in question taken from them. Yet you say God lets Satan torment his believers, up to a point.

Another flaw in your argument is this: I know a number of Christians - those who walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk - who are not involved in any of this demonic attack nonsense. So, given what you assert about believers entering a "war zone," are you saying these people aren't really Christians?

No, just because Christians talk about spiritual warfare does not mean they aren't Christians. Thats the trouble these days churches aren't teaching enough about it to prepare Christians how to counter Satans attacks so we do not stumble or fall away. It's about knowing who we are in Christ that makes the difference.

And if you were to support Voice of The Maryrs Ministry like I do you would see a lot more of the evil that happens to Christians to this day in other countries. People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

[joobz]

People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

People are still beaten and killed for X, why is that?

where X equals
1. Faith in Allah
2. Being homosexual
3. Being a specific race
4. Being a specific gender
5. Fighting against tyrrany
6. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time

[kurious_kathy]

But you said that you had to believe first? So, God didn't save you, you simply believed he saved you.


But you said that you had to first believe in order to believe. Now you are saying some people are just saved without believing and then they start to beleive?

Why does god make such random selections of who is or is not worthy of saying? Why is your version of god so inconsistent?

No I am saying I know exactly when God saved me as he intervened in a very powerful way in my life. One night I just remembered his love for me and he showed up. I guess the truth was there barried for a long time but God needed to create the right circumstances to make me see my need for him. He knows how to a humble us all when he wants to save us. I was humiliated and humbled at the same time. Sin had gotten me in a very bad place and God was the one who showed me what I did to myself to make me want to repent and have him in my life. Without him I was lost and on my way to hell, this I know without a shadow of a doubt. Now I am here to be a witness to the truth of the Gospel, if God can save me he can certainly save you.

God is not incosistent if you ask me, I just see how he meets people in different places and in different circumstances all the time. Nobody has the exact same testimony as another,why is that? I believe is because we are all unique to God and he loves us with an everlasting love! If you have a heart to know him he will find you!!

[kurious_kathy]

People are still beaten and killed for X, why is that?

where X equals
1. Faith in Allah
2. Being homosexual
3. Being a specific race
4. Being a specific gender
5. Fighting against tyrrany
6. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time

Well isn't the real question who is doing this killing and why? Murder is wrong and God condemns murder so why do people still want to kill eachother? Can't you see this is what the Bible calls sin? People are sinners and without God they keep doing what is evil.( I also see how Satan is behind this too filling mens hearts with evil).

If God was to show or convict all who murder others of just this one sin, wouldn't the world be a better place because these guys who naturally want to kill others would stop? I pray the Lord will open all murderers eyes to their sin so they can repent, in Jesus Name, Amen.

[joobz]

Well isn't the real question who is doing this killing and why?
So when Christians kill muslims, they aren't being christian? What about when they "Fagbash" or "lynch"?

Couldn't a Mulsim claim the same thing? That when a Muslim kills, he's not following Allah?

How am I to know which of you are being truthful and which are simply using No-true scottsman like post hoc arguments?


If God was to show or convict all who murder others of just this one sin, wouldn't the world be a better place because these guys who naturally want to kill others would stop? I pray the Lord will open all murderers eyes to their sin so they can repent, in Jesus Name, Amen.
there would be a lot less christians if god did that.

[Foster Zygote]

People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

People have been beaten and killed for being Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jainist an so on. Why is that Kathy? I'm sure you will ignore this question because you really need to believe that the willingness of Christians to suffer for their beliefs validates those beliefs. But, as you have shown repeatedly, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that people are willing to suffer for beliefs other than Christianity. This is an example of that lack of thought that you are so proud of.

[joobz]

No I am saying I know exactly when God saved me as he intervened in a very powerful way in my life. One night I just remembered his love for me and he showed up.
So now you are changing the story or are you merely attempting to rephrase your argument to make it less of a tautology?

I guess the truth was there barried for a long time but God needed to create the right circumstances to make me see my need for him. Wouldn't it be much simpler if god simply showed up and didn't need to play schoolgirl mindgames?


He knows how to a humble us all when he wants to save us. I was humiliated and humbled at the same time.
So god enjoys humiliating us? I didn't realize that Schadenfreude was a virtue.

Sin had gotten me in a very bad place and God was the one who showed me what I did to myself to make me want to repent and have him in my life. Without him I was lost and on my way to hell, this I know without a shadow of a doubt.
So you screwed up and you realized you made an error. Did you stop doing what was bad?
Why do you need god for that?

Now I am here to be a witness to the truth of the Gospel, if God can save me he can certainly save you.
Saving from what? I have not done anything warrenting eternal damnation.

God is not incosistent if you ask me, ...
You claimed that you must first beleive in order to see Jesus. Then you claim that others converted because they saw Jesus before they believed. THAT'S DIRECTLY CONTRADICTORY and inconsistent.

I believe is because we are all unique to God and he loves us with an everlasting love!
But he must first humiliate you before you can receive his love.

Is god's motto, Smell the glove?

[vIQleS]

I can't wait for mine! But I really can't make up my mind...hand or forehead? I mean, look at that debacle with that girl and all those tattooed stars on her face. No thanks.
And it might be harder for me to get a job with the MARK OF THE BEAST on my forehead.

But if I get it on my hand, I'll have to take my gloves off in the winter every single time I want to buy and sell. That could get to be a real pain. And it's certainly going to clash with my slave bracelet jewelry.

I just don't know. But I am sure it's gonna rock, either way! Bring it on!

Dude - I'm so there. I'm getting mine in my wrist - seems the most convenient.

My only concern is that RFID will be superceeded by something better and we'll all have to go in and get the new technology... and so on and so forth - eventually I'll be more chip than man.

[TimCallahan]

And if you were to support Voice of The Maryrs Ministry like I do you would see a lot more of the evil that happens to Christians to this day in other countries. People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

As noted by a number of others posting on this thread, people are being killed for espousing a number of faiths. One cease in point is that in the wake of the break up of Yugoslavia, the Eastern Orthodox Serbs murdered Roman Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosnians. All of these people shared a common language and ethnic ancestry. The were all Savs from the same region, all of whom spoke Serbo-Croatian. The only thing that really divides these people is religion.

I believe it was in the late 1980s that there were riots in Bombay between Hindus and Muslims, resulting in a lot of deaths.

In neither or these instances, nor in the Holocaust, nor in any other atrocity occuring either in history or in the present, do I see the need to invoke Satan. Thus, the fact that, "People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ," is scarcely a proof of either the existence of Satan or the reality of spiritual warfare.

[Ethnikos]

Ephesians 6:10 - 16. Let us just consider verses 11 and 12 for a start:
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So, do you believe that you are actually day-to-day locked in spiritual warfare with demons? Do you believe that the "world rulers of this present darkness" refers to actual national leaders of today, and, if so, which ones? Finally, if you do believe at least in the gist of the verses above, what is your evidence of spiritual warfare and demonic atttack? Jesus being tempted in the wilderness would be an example of spiritual warfare being used against him. We are not equally attacked by Satan. Those who are spiritually neutral can be ignored. Satan is using his slaves in high positions to round up the apathetic for destruction. God sends in prophets among the sheep to guide them away from the snare, leaving them no excuse.

[TimCallahan]

The Temptation in the Wilderness, particularly as recorded in the Gospel of Mark, has strong shamanic associations and seems to be based on Hebrew scriptures dealing with Elijah and Moses, thus indicating the episode was fictional.

As to the shamanic associations, among the Tamang people of Nepal the shamanic initiate is supposedly afflicted by spirits who possess him and drive him into solitude. Looking at the key words of Mk. 1:12, 13 in the original Greek we find a strong parallel:

The Spirit (Gr. pneuma) immediately drove (Gr. ekballo, "eject," literally, "throw out") him out into the wilderness (eremos, havng to do with loneliness or solitude). And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and angels ministered to him.

The Old Testament parallel on which the episode was based is found in 1 Kings. 19:8:

And he [Elijah] arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mount of God.

The episode of Elijah is itself a reference back to Moses (Exodus 24:18):

And Moses entered the cloud, and went up on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

Another indication the episode is fictional is the omniscient presence of the author. Jesus was supposedly alone in the wilderness being tempted. So how did the author of Mark know about it? One way would be through divine inspiration, which means we have to accept the divine inspiration of a narrative, which itself is supposed to prove the divinity of Jesus, meaning we indulge in circular reasoning. The only other way Mark could have known of this episode is that Jesus told him or someone else about it, making the whole thing an unsubstantiated and unprovable claim.

Again, do either of you, Ethnikos or Kathy, have any testable evidence of demonic attack or spiritual warfare?

[Marduk]

ah Kathy, perhaps you can answer a question for me,

In Mesopotamian languages there are two words
Sa - Opposed/Equal
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4600.html
An - God/Heaven
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html

as you can see from the links these two words were being used from 3000bce by a culture who's main opponent to their God was described as a "great red serpent"

The jews picked up this phrase SA.AN while in exile during the Babylonian diaspora, in fact its well known that Babylon was the source for many stories that later appear in the Bible, from Genesis to the flood via the tower of Babel and beyond. Also
according to Rabbi Simeon ben Lakish of Tiberias (230–270 AD), all the specific names for the angels were brought back by the Jews from Babylon.

so it would seem then that SA.AN meaning "opposed" or "equal to god" was first devised by the Sumerians where it was a phrase used as a description for people outside the state religion, such as the Jews who would have heard themselves referenced by that phrase constantly. That the phrase was in use for 2500 years or more is beyond doubt, heres the question

As this is the earliest evidence for the existence of satan before the existence of Judaism, aren't you in the slightest bit interested in how the Babylonians defeated their version of Satan, which is the source and not the much later reacted Jewish derivation ?

[Elizabeth I]

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah, but we are still in the time of gentiles being saved so unfortunately it does seem many Jews are still blind to the truth about Jesus. As I understand it more Jews will come to faith in Christ through the great tribulation which is surely getting closer each day.


...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth. So then God lied to the Jews when he made that covenant, and if God is a liar, how can you trust anything he says?

Or, if God first made the covenant with the Jews, then changed his mind when he sent Jesus, how do you know that he won't change his mind again someday and you'll find yourself out in the cold? What if he says, "Oops, I was wrong, it is the Jews after all"? Or, "Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.

I have asked you these questions before, in several other threads, and you have always ignored them. What is your answer? Is God a liar, or will he just change his mind on you?

[Marduk]

"Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?
its true, he really is
:D

[Ethnikos]

...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth.

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.
The covenants, in my way of thinking, are about a theocracy. Adam was supposed to rule the earth as the representative of mankind and the priest and prophet of God. Noah, after the flood, took that position by default. He passed the birthright for it to Shem. Abraham was the direct descendant, oldest son to oldest son, from Shem. Moses resurrected the concept, after it got lost in Egypt. Jesus was the next person to take up the mantle of being the High Priest/King of Israel.
It is not so much the change in God, as it is in who represents God to us. Jesus is the ultimate representative of God because his existence came from what would have been the image of God in heaven. He is also the ultimate representative for mankind before God, and was taken to Heaven to be priest for us in the true Temple. So, the government is sure, in a place where things do not wear out.

[Ethnikos]

Again, do either of you, Ethnikos or Kathy, have any testable evidence of demonic attack or spiritual warfare?I don't know what is testable.
There are things that happen that are of demonic origin, that I have noticed.
A couple of my old friends are dead who were under attack by demons. One I talked to the night he died. He told me he thought he was beyond salvation. I explained to him how he was not. He was very surprised and asked me questions about it and I told him the Gospel. Two hours later he was dead. He may have been taken while he was in a condition of grace. I haven't ever thought about it like this before, but for all I know, the devil may have done him in because it would have messed up Satan's reputation, if he lost one of his slaves, to Jesus. (these guys were in a popular band in the Inland Empire in California and were sponsored by a Satanic organization who liked their party spirit)
My other friend, Mark, used to stay at my house and his mother fixed up a building on the property for herself to live in. She holds me as partially responsible for her son being murdered because I moved and kind of left them to find other places to live. Where Mark wound up, the owner of the property ended up shooting him.
Mark was under attack from demons and one day I was with him in my car. I felt inspired to explain to him how to overcome it. Just when I got into the lecture, my horn started blowing. Might seem not too unusual but this horn not working caused me to have to stand before a judge to explain how I found it impossible to ever get to work. So here was this horn that had previously never worked, all of sudden would not stop working. I stopped and ended up getting under the car to pull the wire off. It would not let me pull it and was shocking me when I touched it. This is one of my strangest moments because the thing would move out of the way when I grabbed for it. I was exasperated over the experience and so shaken by it that I never got back to the earlier conversation. (the horn never worked again after that for the next year I owned the car, just that once)
Bad things happened after that and I packed up and moved rather quickly. I feel like if I had stuck around and tried to help him out, he would be alive today. This is not some sort of story that makes me look good. I was tortured mentally over what happened because I could never say honestly that I knew I had done the right thing to get the hell out of California. But the purpose of the story is to show that demons are real and people die from them. The devil did not pull the trigger but it did make the man do it. He felt so bad about it that three years later, he turned himself in for doing it. The other guy died when he crashed the car he was driving. He was maybe pushed by the devil to keep going when he should have pulled over and taken a nap, which would have saved his life, I don't know.

[Marduk]

you need to wake up my friend, the devil was invented by Judaism after 500bce as a way of enforcing religious control over a newly freed populace. An idea they got from the babylonians whose culture shows the evolution of such a figure from its original form of a sea monster opposed to their "one" God.

These elements of your story you claim are evidence of demonic attack are much more likely to be that way solely because you believe in demons, in essence it is your belief that is making it real. If your religion didn't have demons what would you have thought was causing it ?

fairies ?
evil goblins ?
Obama ?
:D

really stop torturing yourself, if you hadn't existed things would still have happened exactly the same way, you really are not that important to the grand scheme of things, none of us are
;)

[ExMinister]

Ethnikos, to phrase the question a little differently, how is that you can tell that someone is under the attack of demons? How do you personally tell the difference between people who are under demonic attack and people who are just making bad choices or having bad luck?

[Harpyja]

You burned the books!? What's wrong with you? Couldn't you have just donated them to a library or nursing home or something? KK is a book burner, just one more reason to dislike her.

KK doesn't seem to realize that by her burning books, she is actually (indirectly) causing the author to gain a slight bit of profit. Instead of taking out her old copies at a local library or nursing home, some sap's going to go buy one from a bookstore, thus rerouting some money his way. Same thing that occurred with J. K. Rowling's books until some sense prevailed.

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time, when writing a book was done by hand and books were infinitely more valuable. Burning a book then meant that the body of work was gone. Nowadays, books can be printed cheaply in comparison and can be preserved through the internet, even if the book itself was subject to some worldwide ban.

[Marduk]

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time.

I'm thinking that perhaps "merit" is the wrong word
;)

[TimCallahan]

My other friend, Mark, used to stay at my house and his mother fixed up a building on the property for herself to live in. She holds me as partially responsible for her son being murdered because I moved and kind of left them to find other places to live. Where Mark wound up, the owner of the property ended up shooting him.
Mark was under attack from demons and one day I was with him in my car. I felt inspired to explain to him how to overcome it. Just when I got into the lecture, my horn started blowing. Might seem not too unusual but this horn not working caused me to have to stand before a judge to explain how I found it impossible to ever get to work. So here was this horn that had previously never worked, all of sudden would not stop working. I stopped and ended up getting under the car to pull the wire off. It would not let me pull it and was shocking me when I touched it. This is one of my strangest moments because the thing would move out of the way when I grabbed for it. I was exasperated over the experience and so shaken by it that I never got back to the earlier conversation. (the horn never worked again after that for the next year I owned the car, just that once)
Bad things happened after that and I packed up and moved rather quickly. I feel like if I had stuck around and tried to help him out, he would be alive today. . . .

The devil did not pull the trigger but it did make the man do it. He felt so bad about it that three years later, he turned himself in for doing it. The other guy died when he crashed the car he was driving. He was maybe pushed by the devil to keep going when he should have pulled over and taken a nap, which would have saved his life, I don't know.

Okay, so what we have here are two friends of yours who died, one by being murdered, the other in a car crash, caused probably because he fell asleep at the wheel. I don't see any reason to believe Satan impelled the perpetrator to murder one of your friends, nor to blieve that Satan impelled your other friend to keep driving when he should have pulled off the road to take a nap.

The only thing out of the ordinary is a faulty horn, which you attribute to Satan. However a horn that works or doesn't work in an erratic manner doesn't strike me as Satanic. The fact that the wire shocked you when you tried to disconnect it sounds very thisworldly and reasonable. As to it moving out of the way when you tried to grab it, this may be nothing more than your own perception of what happened. Do we have any auto mechanics who can tell us why horns suddenly start honking?

It would appear that you are reading patterns into happenings that are, with the exception of the murder, accidental. In the case of the murder, you are imposing Satanic motive on an all too human act.

[Lrrr]

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil. Don't you think God uses Satan to show us what we do not want to turn into?

So he keeps Satan around just to have him manipulate people into doing acts of evil? :jaw-dropp What about the victims of these acts? Do they somehow deserve to be harmed by someone God could easily stop but choses not to because he is (what?) testing the perpetrator? That's sick.

[Paulhoff]

Well I believe what Mark Driscol has to say and know it to be the absolute truth and what everyone needs to acknowledge and agree with.

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

As for the others interviewed, my youtube errored so I will try to watch more later and comment then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG

Paul

:) :) :)

[Ethnikos]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=216&pictureid=1335
My cousin did this to a Book he did not like. Books written under satanic influence deserve to be treated this way.
In this case, it was a Jehovah's Witness publication.
(This is a fake picture I made to illustrate the point)
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

[Ethnikos]

Ethnikos, to phrase the question a little differently, how is that you can tell that someone is under the attack of demons? How do you personally tell the difference between people who are under demonic attack and people who are just making bad choices or having bad luck?One way that I can think of would be people doing things without being able to carry out what they would have planned on doing when they were attempting to exercise free will. Someone could imagine they are going to do some good thing, but in the carrying out of the thing, they find themselves doing something quite different. An act that started out to be something that would be helpful becomes instead, something harmful.
Watching these episodes working themselves out could make me conclude there are invisible forces at work that wreck things for the people involved. I can imagine these being conscious of what they are doing and having an intent. We can call these demons. What they really are may not be knowable to us but there is a common mythology that can be put to use to convey the idea of it to others.

[TimCallahan]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=216&pictureid=1335
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

So, what books would you burn?

[Ethnikos]

So, what books would you burn?
This was a story his brother in law told me. He was reading a JW version of the Bible and my cousin grabbed it and threw it in the burn barrel.
I thought KK's story was funny, burning Deepak Chopra's book.
Pretty mild, compared to burning a bible, even if it was a JW bible.
I think most books on religion are trash. A lot of how to be God, or God is inside you stuff that is just not true.
We do not naturally have God in us and no amount of wishing will change that. We are naturally the sons of Satan. God can transform us to a certain extent. First we have to recognize our sorry state and then have grace bestowed upon us through believing in the salvation that Christ worked for us. We will always need that.

[joobz]

This was a story his brother in law told me. He was reading a JW version of the Bible and my cousin grabbed it and threw it in the burn barrel.
I thought KK's story was funny, burning Deepak Chopra's book.
Pretty mild, compared to burning a bible, even if it was a JW bible.
why? they seem equally dumb atcs to me.

[joobz]

Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.
Burning books is a sign of a weak mind that fears learning.

[TimCallahan]

We do not naturally have God in us and no amount of wishing will change that. We are naturally the sons of Satan. God can transform us to a certain extent. First we have to recognize our sorry state and then have grace bestowed upon us through believing in the salvation that Christ worked for us. We will always need that.

We are naturally the sons of Satan? I thought our religion teaches that we are the creations of God, even if we are estranged from him as a result of the fall. See how this pernicious doctrine of Original Sin has twisted things? If you begin with the assumption that human beings are essentially evil, this allows church authorities to use all sorts of brutality and to abrogate all hman rights - all for our own good.

[Paulhoff]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=216&pictureid=1335
My cousin did this to a Book he did not like. Books written under satanic influence deserve to be treated this way.
In this case, it was a Jehovah's Witness publication.
(This is a fake picture I made to illustrate the point)
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.
Burning is not the thing to do, educating people is the thing to do. Which a lot of religious leaders seem not to what to do. This would most likely show people they don't need any childish ideas of what a so-called god should be.

Paul

:) :) :)

[kurious_kathy]

KK doesn't seem to realize that by her burning books, she is actually (indirectly) causing the author to gain a slight bit of profit. Instead of taking out her old copies at a local library or nursing home, some sap's going to go buy one from a bookstore, thus rerouting some money his way. Same thing that occurred with J. K. Rowling's books until some sense prevailed.

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time, when writing a book was done by hand and books were infinitely more valuable. Burning a book then meant that the body of work was gone. Nowadays, books can be printed cheaply in comparison and can be preserved through the internet, even if the book itself was subject to some worldwide ban.

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

[Ethnikos]

We are naturally the sons of Satan? I thought our religion teaches that we are the creations of God, even if we are estranged from him as a result of the fall. See how this pernicious doctrine of Original Sin has twisted things? If you begin with the assumption that human beings are essentially evil, this allows church authorities to use all sorts of brutality and to abrogate all human rights - all for our own good.
We become adopted as sons through Jesus, who is the true Son. When you believe in God and His Son, you are not ruled by the spirit of Satan. Jesus was sent by God to bring the truth to us and to complete a victory over sin and death. Our faith in him bonds us to Jesus, and the acceptance the Father offers him is shared by us. This status of acceptance gives us the right to share in God's Spirit that Jesus gives us to be better people. We have a better ability to resist the traps of the sinful world and are no longer under Satan's authority.
We should not use our status as sons of God to judge others because we should see ourselves, as we were before we were saved, in the ones yet to find it. Instead of hating them, we should love them because God loved us before we knew Him.

[Ethnikos]

In late medieval/early Renaissance Europe most of the beer was brewed by old ladies living alone outside of towns. They wore tall conical hats in market places so they could be easily spotted. At home, they left their brooms propped by their doors to indicate they had beer for sale. Of course they kept cats to minimize the predation from mice and rats upon their grain. As is the case so often in human affairs, the socially well placed and powerful decided there was money to be made. In order to gain a monopoly in beer, the Burgermeisters spread malicious stories about these old ladies, calling them witches, saying they engaged in sex with the devil, and ate small children. This strategy was so effective that even to this day everyone knows exactly what a witch looks like. Of course the townspeople felt free, nay obliged, to kill or drive away these hapless beer makers. It seems clear to me that not only is Satan, the Devil, a mythological character, since no one has to explain to anyone else who they're talking about, but that he is brought into social interactions in order to discredit or destroy someone else.This was emailed to me by someone who does not like to post directly himself. pAthena (this is an original piece and not just something copied from somewhere) I thought I would put this up to add something a critical thinker might write on the subject of Satan. I do not necessarily subscribe to this but thought sceptical people would enjoy it.

In way of a reply to the above quote, I will point out that something being mythological does not have to mean it is not based on something real. There may be an actual devil and a Satan. The way we think of these characters may be a form of personification to something spiritual that is not easily described in physical terms. You give an example of these women accused of being witches. There may not have been actual witches who meet the definition given, since they were targeting a specific group for destruction. But there could be a few people here and there who really were witches, just not like the stereotype. There could very well be an actual entity, Satan, but not like we imagine, based on the mythology. But I think I get your point though, and it is something similar to what callahan was pointing out. We should not invent a "Satan" to fit our personal enemies, and so perhaps harm innocent people.

[paximperium]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.
In other words, you believe you have a weak mind who is too cowardly to learn and you are arrogant enough to believe others are as weak as you are.

[Ravenwood]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

Wow, I had no idea that torching ink on dead tree guts was a more effective means of combating evil in the world than actually doing some good...My Grandfather was right when He told me after I had announced that I wanted to enter the Seminary, that "Two hands on a shovel will accomplish way more work than a 1000 hands clasped in prayer." It made me think hard about my future & I do not regret listening to him one bit. Wisest man I know...

[Ethnikos]

...My Grandfather was right when He told me after I had announced that I wanted to enter the Seminary, that "Two hands on a shovel will accomplish way more work than a 1000 hands clasped in prayer." It just may be that those prayers are responsible for those two people with shovels being able to do their work. They could have come down with malaria or had a civil war sweeping across the land they intended to dig in. Having a lack of faith because of a lack of readily apparent evidence, seems like a lame excuse to me.
I had someone tell me the other day that he thought he should only pray for himself because he could not see if his prayers for others ever got answered. I told him he might as well be an atheist.

[paximperium]

It just may be that those prayers are responsible for those two people with shovels being able to do their work. They could have come down with malaria or had a civil war sweeping across the land they intended to dig in. Could have. May be. Is that the best of yoru arguments for prayer?

Having a lack of faith because of a lack of readily apparent evidence, seems like a lame excuse to me. No, that is actually the intelligent and sane thing to do. To make things up without any evidence is the lame excuse.

I had someone tell me the other day that he thought he should only pray for himself because he could not see if his prayers for others ever got answered. I told him he might as well be an atheist. He should. Your point?

[joobz]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.
did you burn your bible? IT's filled with smut and suggestions of evil:

Smut:
Ezekiel 23:19-20

Evil suggestions:
Psalms 137:9

[Paulhoff]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.
Satan, what a convenient little monster he is for you and others, just put the blame on it, not on yourself.

And has joobz has said, get rip of that bible, it is full of crap too. Get the Jefferson Bible, all the magic stuff has been cut out.

Paul

:) :) :)

[TimCallahan]

We become adopted as sons through Jesus, who is the true Son. When you believe in God and His Son, you are not ruled by the spirit of Satan. Jesus was sent by God to bring the truth to us and to complete a victory over sin and death. Our faith in him bonds us to Jesus, and the acceptance the Father offers him is shared by us. This status of acceptance gives us the right to share in God's Spirit that Jesus gives us to be better people. We have a better ability to resist the traps of the sinful world and are no longer under Satan's authority.
We should not use our status as sons of God to judge others because we should see ourselves, as we were before we were saved, in the ones yet to find it. Instead of hating them, we should love them because God loved us before we knew Him.

Okay, here we come to the crux of this whole idea of Satan. You look out at the world and you see it's a mix of good and bad. However, monotheism, unlike the pagan belief systems which came before it, requires that God be all good. This sets up a conundrum, because the world he supposedly created isn't all good. Therefore, any source of evil must be something other than God. So monotheists invent the Devil, or Satan. However, this really doesn't solve the "problem" of evil, because Satan cannot be allowed either to be God's equal or a separate creation. Thus God - having perfect foreknowledge, has, in creating Satan, deliberately created evil.

I know the argument here is that God gave us - including Satan - free will. Thus, we have the power to choose evil over good. However, if God is all good, then everything he created must be all good as well, and the free will choice every being made by such a perfect creator would necessarily be to choose good over evil.

Since the world is a mix of good and evil, let me posit three possible alternatives:

1) God (or the gods) is not all good or is not all powerful and is thus not abe to banish evil.

2) God is a being beyond such concerns about good and evil. These are largely human constructs. God (or the gods) is only marginally concerned about the human race. Evil exists becccause God isn't all that concerned with human well-being

3) There is no God. The first cause is not a creator god, but rather the universe itself.

Let me also point out that, with your still unresolved conundrum, you imagine a world of threat, run by an inimical being. YOu are therefore doomed to having a seige mentality. In fact, the re is no threat. The world is indifferent to us.

[dlorde]

Blessed Gullible is the man who believes but has not seen!!{ my correction }
:dl:

I have a famous bridge here you might like to purchase...

[Beerina]

Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.


History shows "Who watches the watchmen?" to be by far the greater problem, so I disagree.


Furthermore "Keeps them out of the hands of susceptible people" suggests a proper path from which they are straying. Who decides this path? If it's anything but "leave other people the holy hell alone unless they ask", then that "proper path" is nothing of the sort.

[Lrrr]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

But in a previous post (# 249)where I asked why God doesn't just smite Satan, you told me God allows Satan to stay in the world to perform his evil deeds to show people what not to become. Doesn't that make God in the very least an accomplice to this evil?

[Ethnikos]

But in a previous post (# 249)where I asked why God doesn't just smite Satan, you told me God allows Satan to stay in the world to perform his evil deeds to show people what not to become. Doesn't that make God in the very least an accomplice to this evil?How do you know it is evil? Because God says it's evil? What if someone thought that a certain amount of human suffering is worth the price of the much lauded "free will" everyone worships as if it is a god?
Some starving people over here, some other people being raped and murdered over there. What if one person's free will is to rape and murder some other people? They should oblige him, and get raped and murdered, right? Free will. Satan loves free will. Shouldn't we worship Satan for showing us this great thing, free will. How could it possibly be wrong? It sounds nice. Freedom of choice. Someone starving and asks you for food. You can choose to ignore them and go on your way, knowing they will die, while you consider all the fun stuff you can choose to do with the money you chose not to give away. Thank you Satan. I am so glad God did not kill him. What would life be without him. Not much fun at all, going around helping people, how boring.
A grand experiment, that's what it should be. See how it works out for old planet earth. If it turns out to be successful, we should have his "free will" plan everywhere in the universe. We can become missionaries to all the planets in all the galaxies, Oh Lucifer, the great one who brought us understanding and empowered us, to not have any restraints put upon us. Yes, Free-will forever! Even all the churches and popes agree with Satan, free will is the best thing ever. How about Jesus? He loved Satan too, right? Didn't he say, do whatever you want, it's your choice? What? There is no such thing as free will taught in the Bible? It must have been written by kill-joys.
Satan is just too important to kill. Everyone is rooting for him. Freedom from God and rules and thou shalt not's. Just because half the world is enslaved to maintain the lifestyles of the other half, no reason to think the system is flawed. Who cares about the little people.
If God kills Satan, before he has a chance to really show his potential,well, so much for Him. We will just start a bigger rebellion than ever, to show our disapproval. God can't get away with doing that, killing the one who brings light. He opened the eyes of Adam and Eve. How pathetic would they have been, if not for the enlightened one. A dreary sad life, wasted working as caretakers in his Garden. No house or cars, not even clothes. Just whatever food they find in the garden, except one tree. How dare God do that to someone? Blah!! And then, what, just kill someone who we feel should rightfully be worshipped himself, as a God? The world is not watching. Oh, No, that would be too easy. All the worlds in every part of the universe are watching. Lucifer, yes we know him well on our planet. He visits on occasion and we are very impressed with him. He is the most majestic being ever created. He likes to think of himself as being better than that, really. If he says so. Once he is able to demonstrate how free will works, over on earth, we will be happy to oblige him and say he is God. Why not? What did God ever do for us, other than create us and give us life? Lucifer might just have the superior plan, let's wait and see, first, before we start our full scale open rebellion that is universe wide. Of course God will have to allow Lucifer to carry on his experiment. Otherwise, no waiting.

[Darth Rotor]

The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives.
Yep.
The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled.Why don't you buy them your brand of Kilt?
Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!
Praise the Lord.

Oh, wait, you didn't go off and do that.

Sigh.

Your cross to bear.

[Paulhoff]

How do you know it is evil? Because God says it's evil?
No, there is no so-called god, so that idea holds no water at all.

Pal

:) :) :)

[six7s]

Satan loves free will. Shouldn't we worship Satan for showing us this great thing, free will. How could it possibly be wrong? <snip/>

Even all the churches and popes agree with Satan, free will is the best thing ever. How about Jesus? He loved Satan too, right? <snip/>

Satan is just too important to kill:confused:

Who or what is this Satan?

There could very well be an actual entity, Satan, but not like we imagine, based on the mythology. But I think I get your point though, and it is something similar to what callahan was pointing out. We should not invent a "Satan" to fit our personal enemies, and so perhaps harm innocent people.Not something you invented, right?

[Ethnikos]

:confused:That's understandable. I tell this story by speaking in the third person and then from the first person as an Earthling, then the first person of an other-world inhabitant. Not really all that happy with it, but don't really want to write a book.
Who or what is this Satan?This is the same story I was telling in a couple of other threads. I just changed it from being an objective view of describing it, to a personal subjective telling of it.
It is my way of trying to answer one of those problems about God, specifically why God allows evil to exist. The way I explain it is that Satan is restricted, at present, to this one planet. He has been allowed to continue to prove that his system only leads to bad things and we would have been better off without him ever getting involved. It's pretty much gotten to a point where the results can be calculated and the test ended. The idea is that the spirit of rebellion will end with the final judgement against Satan. Meanwhile, there are people on other planets who are going to wait for the results because long ago, when Satan was Lucifer, he was allowed to travel freely and many had heard his message and may be wanting to accept it, if it seemed to work out the way he claimed it should.
Not something you invented, right?
No, I did not invent this concept of us being a showcase for the alternative to being obedient. You can see KK's comment where she says that Satan is an example of what not to be. The theory I am advocating just takes that a step further by saying that Satan is an example, for everyone, not just people on this planet who are suffering the ill affects of disobedience.
What I was talking about earlier concerning inventing devils has to do with making Satan in the image of people we want to be persecuted. I do not think I am doing that. Unless I am demonizing free willers'. I am about sick of hearing this everywhere, more than I can remember anyone ever talking about it in the past. I do not think it is a good thing to imagine we have free will. Adam and Eve had free will and traded it for something else. They learned to tell the difference between good and evil, but not how to be able to always do the good. God has to give us the desire to be good, meaning we are not saved by our seeking God, but by God seeking us.

[Paulhoff]

It is my way of trying to answer one of those problems about God, specifically why God allows evil to exist. The way I explain it is that Satan is restricted, at present, to this one planet.
Just make it up as you go along.........

Paul

:) :) :)

[six7s]

That's understandable. I tell this story by speaking in the third person and then from the first person as an Earthling, then the first person of an other-world inhabitant. Not really all that happy with it, but don't really want to write a book.
This is the same story I was telling in a couple of other threads. I just changed it from being an objective view of describing it, to a personal subjective telling of it.
It is my way of trying to answer one of those problems about God, specifically why God allows evil to exist. The way I explain it is that Satan is restricted, at present, to this one planet. He has been allowed to continue to prove that his system only leads to bad things and we would have been better off without him ever getting involved. It's pretty much gotten to a point where the results can be calculated and the test ended. The idea is that the spirit of rebellion will end with the final judgement against Satan. Meanwhile, there are people on other planets who are going to wait for the results because long ago, when Satan was Lucifer, he was allowed to travel freely and many had heard his message and may be wanting to accept it, if it seemed to work out the way he claimed it should.

No, I did not invent this concept of us being a showcase for the alternative to being obedient. You can see KK's comment where she says that Satan is an example of what not to be. The theory I am advocating just takes that a step further by saying that Satan is an example, for everyone, not just people on this planet who are suffering the ill affects of disobedience.
What I was talking about earlier concerning inventing devils has to do with making Satan in the image of people we want to be persecuted. I do not think I am doing that. Unless I am demonizing free willers'. I am about sick of hearing this everywhere, more than I can remember anyone ever talking about it in the past. I do not think it is a good thing to imagine we have free will. Adam and Eve had free will and traded it for something else. They learned to tell the difference between good and evil, but not how to be able to always do the good. God has to give us the desire to be good, meaning we are not saved by our seeking God, but by God seeking us.Dear Ethnikos,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to reply to my questions

Alas, I have no idea what you mean

Do you?

Yours sincerely
six7s

[TimCallahan]

Since the world is a mix of good and evil, let me posit three possible alternatives:

1) God (or the gods) is not all good or is not all powerful and is thus not abe to banish evil.

2) God is a being beyond such concerns about good and evil. These are largely human constructs. God (or the gods) is only marginally concerned about the human race. Evil exists becccause God isn't all that concerned with human well-being

3) There is no God. The first cause is not a creator god, but rather the universe itself.

Let me also point out that, with your still unresolved conundrum, you imagine a world of threat, run by an inimical being. YOu are therefore doomed to having a seige mentality. In fact, the re is no threat. The world is indifferent to us.

Ethnikos: I still don't hae an answer to these questions. What is your response?

[TimCallahan]

We become adopted as sons through Jesus, who is the true Son. When you believe in God and His Son, you are not ruled by the spirit of Satan. Jesus was sent by God to bring the truth to us and to complete a victory over sin and death. Our faith in him bonds us to Jesus, and the acceptance the Father offers him is shared by us. This status of acceptance gives us the right to share in God's Spirit that Jesus gives us to be better people. We have a better ability to resist the traps of the sinful world and are no longer under Satan's authority.
We should not use our status as sons of God to judge others because we should see ourselves, as we were before we were saved, in the ones yet to find it. Instead of hating them, we should love them because God loved us before we knew Him.

Okay, you still haven't answered how humans, as God's creations, would be the sons of Satan.

[Ethnikos]

Ethnikos: I still don't have an answer to these questions. What is your response?
I thought my answer was included in post #295.
I was not trying to avoid answering it, just not wanting to be redundant.
I am not sure about where you get this question from and how authoritative it is. For example it makes a statement about God having to be "all good and no evil", according to the modern understanding of God.
Do you have some sort of proof that this is correct?
I do know there is a small minority of people who suffer a form of insanity that makes it impossible for them to accept that God kills people. I have run into them at church, where you can argue all day long with them and no matter how good your evidence is, they will not believe it.
I hope none of those people ever make it into policy making positions in the church. Obviously, God is capable of all sorts of things that seem terrible to us and could be classified as "bad" if you like. God destroys who He wants and allows what He wants to allow, for His own purposes. You can be like the people in the book of Job who want to complain about God, but it turns out in the end that God knew what He was doing, all along.
Or you can believe that bad is the normal condition of the universe and just do whatever. That just makes things worse. We need to believe that no matter how bad things are around us, to not be bad ourselves. It has to matter what we do. If it takes the belief that God will bring us back to life in order to judge us, then why fight it? It might not work for you. Do you have a better motivation for not just being a wretched monster, since how could it make any difference?
Sorry about being boring and repeating myself because I am sure you have seen my explanation before. God may have looked at a possible universe and worked it all out in His mind, how it might work out. Simulations to test ideas about the best way He could make a universe. It just may be that a universe that is designed to accommodate free will and an infinite potential for the intended inhabitants is, by design, guaranteed to fail at some point. So He could either not create it, or go ahead and deal with the consequences when they come up.
If you read the Bible about the creation, you see that God does not make a couple of animals, here and there. He creates tons of them, after their "kind". What kind? Did He already have a pattern somewhere of all the different species of plants and animals, where it was no work to produce them? Just order up so many of all these pre-designed things.
Take this concept a little further and how about God not just making a planet with plants and animals and people. Why not tons of planets, with all the life forms on them?
If you can accept that, then what if all these other planets that did not fall, for whatever reason, were interested in what happened to this planet? God could just erase us, but that would not be much use as a lesson study. If things just seemed to be going along happily, despite there being a people in rebellion, it might be looking too inviting and not such a bad trade-off.
Satan has to be the main target of an in-depth analysis of what happens when people follow someone who leads them away from following God. So the devil is bound to destruction for being the instigator of rebellion and responsible for lost souls. Souls being lost has to be an outcome because of the general disarray of things, as an affect of the corruption of the world by sin. Defective people have to result as a proper demonstration of how bad things are at every level. You can not just have one part unaffected, while everything else is so messed up. If everyone was to be saved in the end, then there are no real consequences to rebellion.

[rollickingsunshine]

I was concerned as soon as Chopra called Freud a "great psychologist."

[stevea]

I refuse to get involved in this silliness except to say that KK really tied this thread in knots.
Where is the "Don't feed the trolls" sign ?

[TimCallahan]

Ethnikos: in response to your last post, all I can say is, "So much vrerbiage, so little substance."

As to the idea of God being all good, consider Genesis 18, where Abraham asks God not to kill the righteous with the wicked. At the end of verse 25 Abraham asks, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" This is but one verse of many I can easily find, but I wouldn't think I'd have to argue with a Christian that the biblical concept of God is that he is good.

What you seem to be proposing is this: We are too messed-up, sinful, stupid or finite to really comprehend God's plans and to thus realize why things are as they are. Thus, what seems to us like evil or God standing by and letting evil work its will or God deliberately creating a powerful supernatural focus of evil, i.e. Satan, is actually the just working through of a divine plan. However, we are at the sme time expected to act ethically and morally and will be judged if we fail to do so - even though we're too depraved to do this. But God, being merciful, has offered us undeserved salvation, if we will only accept it. Yet, it's already predestined as to who will or will not accept salvation. However, we are still responsible for refusing God's offer of salvation, for which we will not simply be erased, but will be sent to hell for eternity (see Romans 9:14 -24). All of this is part of God's boundless and perfect love for us.

Did I miss anything?

[Ethnikos]

However, we are still responsible for refusing God's offer of salvation, for which we will not simply be erased, but will be sent to hell for eternity (see Romans 9:14 -24). All of this is part of God's boundless and perfect love for us.
Did I miss anything?I have to disagree with the eternal hell thing. Other than that, it looks like you have it boiled down pretty well. So, just the substance without all the verbage.
That is not some punishment that goes on forever. There is a spiritual prison which is just us not being able to be alive. Even that is done away with at the final judgment. I suppose it is difficult to get that image out of yor mind once it is put on you. I remember being a very young child and being taught that if you lie, you will go to hell. That sort of thing sticks with you. You seem capable of making an examination of the hell concept, or just do like I did and retranslate the verse. I think I put it in the "teachings" thread. The one about the lake of fire being a purifying fire. It destroys all the evil.

[Marduk]

I remember being a very young child and being taught that if you lie, you will go to hell. That sort of thing sticks with you.

that explains a lot, thanks

btw

http://www.ratemyeverything.net/image/6942/0/Spoiler.ashx
:D

[kurious_kathy]

But in a previous post (# 249)where I asked why God doesn't just smite Satan, you told me God allows Satan to stay in the world to perform his evil deeds to show people what not to become. Doesn't that make God in the very least an accomplice to this evil?

No, I believe he uses Satan to test peoples hearts and minds.

The real matter of importance here is once God opens our eyes to sin we can't help but know we need Jesus. I want to focus on the good more than the bad.

God has promised to forgive us our sins when we ask him too. How do you think someone comes to this point of accepting God's grace? I know it's a supernatural gift that God grants repentance to some of us, but how do you view it? Do you think people can even come to this point in their life without God drawing them?

[kurious_kathy]

I have to disagree with the eternal hell thing. Other than that, it looks like you have it boiled down pretty well. So, just the substance without all the verbage.
That is not some punishment that goes on forever. There is a spiritual prison which is just us not being able to be alive. Even that is done away with at the final judgment. I suppose it is difficult to get that image out of yor mind once it is put on you. I remember being a very young child and being taught that if you lie, you will go to hell. That sort of thing sticks with you. You seem capable of making an examination of the hell concept, or just do like I did and retranslate the verse. I think I put it in the "teachings" thread. The one about the lake of fire being a purifying fire. It destroys all the evil.

Uh Oh Ethnikos now I am worried about you, are you saying you do not believe Jesus's own teachings about hell? I would be sure to take him at his word.

Jesus spoke about hell more than heaven because he wanted to make people aware they do not want to end up there! The Emergent churches are guilty of straying from the truth, hell is very real!

[kurious_kathy]

I refuse to get involved in this silliness except to say that KK really tied this thread in knots.
Where is the "Don't feed the trolls" sign ?

Oh so only atheists and agnostics are not trolls on this board? What makes you label me a troll when I have been on jref quite a while now?

Just because I believe different than you do does not make me a troll! I think you just want to throw stones at me for sharing my faith with others. I will never quit sharing the truth I know with others. Satan truly does exist but he is defeated FOE! because Jesus beat the devil with two sticks!!

[paximperium]

Oh so only atheists and agnostics are not trolls on this board? What makes you label me a troll when I have been on jref quite a while now? You don't listen, you are unable to understand anything and you preach garbage.

Just because I believe different than you do does not make me a troll! I think you just want to throw stones at me for sharing my faith with others. I will never quit sharing the truth I know with others. Satan truly does exist but he is defeated FOE! because Jesus beat the devil with two sticks!!And that is a perfect example of how incompetant you are at spreading your "faith" in a board of critical thinkers.

[Ethnikos]

Uh Oh Ethnikos now I am worried about you, are you saying you do not believe Jesus's own teachings about hell? I would be sure to take him at his word.

Jesus spoke about hell more than heaven because he wanted to make people aware they do not want to end up there! The Emergent churches are guilty of straying from the truth, hell is very real!

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Look at my signature, there is another good verse. Hell exists as a holding place until the judgement. Do you think that happens at the end of eternity?
I don't.
I am not part of an emergent church. I belong to a conservative protestant church. I just do not think hell lasts forever and the verse used to support the notion that it does, can be understood to mean that test results of the purifying lake of fire will be remembered forever.
The work translated as torment comes from a Greek word that comes from a test to find the purity of gold or silver. Satan gets tossed into the fire that will burn away whatever is not pure. The smoke goes up while all of Satan is burned up. If Satan was pure, nothing would be consumed, thus no smoke.

[Marduk]

The smoke goes up while all of Satan is burned up. If Satan was pure, nothing would be consumed, thus no smoke.
guess you might be interested in the question that Kathy ignored at the end of this post
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4903119&postcount=262
;)

[kurious_kathy]

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Look at my signature, there is another good verse. Hell exists as a holding place until the judgement. Do you think that happens at the end of eternity?
I don't.
I am not part of an emergent church. I belong to a conservative protestant church. I just do not think hell lasts forever and the verse used to support the notion that it does, can be understood to mean that test results of the purifying lake of fire will be remembered forever.
The work translated as torment comes from a Greek word that comes from a test to find the purity of gold or silver. Satan gets tossed into the fire that will burn away whatever is not pure. The smoke goes up while all of Satan is burned up. If Satan was pure, nothing would be consumed, thus no smoke.

No my friend you are twisting the meaning so watch out. Satan and his demons will suffer forever in hell and so will everyone else who dies outside of Christ. Why else does Matthew 10:28 Warn us not to fear the one who can kill the body but to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell?

Mark 9:43-47 also has alot to warn us of...If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into (AG)hell, into the (AH)unquenchable fire,

44[[c]where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]

45"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into (AI)hell,

46[[d]where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]

P.S. I just conversed with my hubby who understands scripture better than I do and he says you must make the distinction between Gehenna as Hell and Hades is Sheole the holding place which will be gone once people are judged and sent to hell. In the King James they translated everything as hell but if you go back and look at the Greek and Hebrew you will discover there are very big differences. Check that out!

[Marduk]

<<<<goes to get popcorn
:D

[kurious_kathy]

You don't listen, you are unable to understand anything and you preach garbage.
And that is a perfect example of how incompetant you are at spreading your "faith" in a board of critical thinkers.

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?
You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!

Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!

[Marduk]

Kathy, if all you know about Satan is from one book then you don't know anything do you, do you go around telling your friends that you know all there is to know about any other subject on the strength of one book ?
are you really that arrogant ?

[Ethnikos]

guess you might be interested in the question that Kathy ignored at the end of this post
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4903119&postcount=262
;)What's the question? If I want to know how the pre-judaic proto-satan was defeated?
KK has her hubby to refer to. I have this guy pAthena to refer to as the expert on Satan. He translated some of the texts from Ugarit and found these old mythologies that the Lucifer references in Isaiah came from.
He might have some info on the subject. Go ahead and tell me what it was and I can ask him to make a comment on it and I will post it.

[Pure Argent]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?
You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!

Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!

Please show some evidence to support your claims. Since you haven't, we reserve the right to disregard your claims.

[Paulhoff]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?

Which ones, war, there has always been war.

What about all the archeological evidence?

Which is none.

What about all the scientific proof?

Which again is none.

You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!

No, you buy into things by people who lie, if it weren't for that, they would have nothing.

Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!

Which you still haven't proved to exit, so-called god, that can't get anything right, and so-called Satan.



Paul

:) :) :)

[Pure Argent]

Paul

:) :) :)

No, the prophecies she's talking about are all in Revelations.




Obviously.

No, seriously though. If make enough prophecies, some of them are going to be right. But even if those are, it's not because you said it would happen. It's because probability is on your side. But what about the vast numbers of unfulfilled prophecies?

EDIT: Ah, it's not quoting the entire thing. Ah, well. You know what I'm talking about.

[Hokulele]

No, the prophecies she's talking about are all in Revelations.




Obviously.

No, seriously though. If make enough prophecies, some of them are going to be right. But even if those are, it's not because you said it would happen. It's because probability is on your side. But what about the vast numbers of unfulfilled prophecies?

EDIT: Ah, it's not quoting the entire thing. Ah, well. You know what I'm talking about.


Actually, the argument both she and her husband have put forward regarding prophecies is even worse than that. Usually they will point to Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and the lot to show how they predicted the coming of Jesus Christ. Then they will point to the New Testament to show how all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Incredible!

Not.

[Pure Argent]

Actually, the argument both she and her husband have put forward regarding prophecies is even worse than that. Usually they will point to Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and the lot to show how they predicted the coming of Jesus Christ. Then they will point to the New Testament to show how all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Incredible!

Not.

1) KK's husband is on here?
2) ...
3) Wow. That is some of the most circular logic I have ever seen.

The Bible has been edited. People probably went back and added in those prophecies anyway. And even if people actually did make those prophecies, they're still wrong, because Jesus was not the Messiah. If he did actually exist, he was just a philosopher who either a) passed himself off as the Savior for his own reasons or b) got called the Messiah by his followers because he had such great thinkin' powers.

[Hokulele]

Yes, her husband posts here as Christian Dude. He was the one who started the monstrosity known as "The Truth About Christianity Blah Blah Blah".

Strangely enough, they weren't as impressed with the fact that Harry Potter managed to fulfill all of the prophecies about him in the series of books chronicling his adventures. I guess using fiction to prove fiction only works for the bible...

[Pure Argent]

Hokulele, I must say that I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You get a cookie.

[Hokulele]

Hokulele, I must say that I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You get a cookie.


:blush:


*Nom nom nom*

[kurious_kathy]

Actually, the argument both she and her husband have put forward regarding prophecies is even worse than that. Usually they will point to Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and the lot to show how they predicted the coming of Jesus Christ. Then they will point to the New Testament to show how all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Incredible!

Not.

Jesus proved who he was and there is plenty of historical evidence for the life of Christ. I suggest you endevour more on finding the proof you seek, as I already know these facts are true. Jesus is not hiding if you are truly open and seeking him he will make himself known to you. I can't give you what I have, but I can point the way to the one has the answers you still need to find.

[Pure Argent]

Jesus proved who he was and there is plenty of historical evidence for the life of Christ. I suggest you endevour more on finding the proof you seek, as I already know these facts are true. Jesus is not hiding if you are truly open and seeking him he will make himself known to you. I can't give you what I have, but I can point the way to the one has the answers you still need to find.

No, he didn't.

Give us proof or go away.

And, as I have said, the "open your heart and all will become clear" schtick is getting really, really old, as it is self-evidently nonsense.

[bobcarp]

Jesus proved who he was and there is plenty of historical evidence for the life of Christ. I suggest you endevour more on finding the proof you seek, as I already know these facts are true. Jesus is not hiding if you are truly open and seeking him he will make himself known to you. I can't give you what I have, but I can point the way to the one has the answers you still need to find.

Rhetoric –noun
1. (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
2. the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or
verse, including the figures of speech.
3. the study of the effective use of language.
4. the ability to use language effectively.
5. the art of prose in general as opposed to verse.
6. the art of making persuasive speeches; oratory.
7. (in classical oratory) the art of influencing the thought and conduct of an
audience.
8. (in older use) a work on rhetoric.

[Hokulele]

Jesus proved who he was and there is plenty of historical evidence for the life of Christ.


Bare assertion, not convincing.

I suggest you endevour more on finding the proof you seek, as I already know these facts are true.


I am not seeking proof as I already know that some of the facts are true, and quite a number of them are false. I only request evidence when people make claims and insist those claims should apply to me. And considering you have shown a serious lack of intellectual courage required to even look at any evidence that goes contrary to your opinions, forgive me for not taking your suggestions very seriously.

Jesus is not hiding if you are truly open and seeking him he will make himself known to you.


He isn't hiding, all of the evidence points to his being dead.

I can't give you what I have, but I can point the way to the one has the answers you still need to find.


Why do you assume I need to find any answers? I encourage you to contact me next week when you arrive on Maui and I would be more than happy to show you that my life doesn't have anything lacking.

Well, one minor correction, my life does lack the overwhelming fear and terror that is evident in so many of your posts.

[bobcarp]

Jesus is not hiding if you are truly open and seeking him he will make himself known to you.

I guess Allah, Zeus and Paul Bunyan aren't hiding either if one is truly open and seeking them.

[Ethnikos]

P.S. I just conversed with my hubby who understands scripture better than I do and he says you must make the distinction between Gehenna as Hell and Hades is Sheole the holding place which will be gone once people are judged and sent to hell. In the King James they translated everything as hell but if you go back and look at the Greek and Hebrew you will discover there are very big differences. Check that out!
Wikipedia does go along with what you have written here in your post concerning the distinction. It says that the dead are in hades up until the judgment, them get tossed into gehenna.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia on gehenna:
"Gehenna is cited in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the final place where the wicked will be punished or destroyed after resurrection." It seems to allow a difference of opinion between the damned being destroyed, or being further punished. I go with the former and think the latter is difficult to support for a couple of reasons.
I think Jesus was speaking metaphoricaly about undying worms. I doubt that literal worms are going to be living in a fire.
It also seems inconsistent with what we would sense as being justice. An eternal suffering for everyone may be unfair if someone who lived a decent life gets the same punishment as a serial killer.
God wiping away all tears would not be an accurate statement if there were people living inside a fire. Also it would be difficult for the people not in the fire to be especially happy knowing their unsaved loved ones were over the hill being cooked.
I think God puts a final end to all evil, otherwise what is the purpose of it all. God wants to make a total restoration of the world to where it should have been if there had not been the introduction of sin. That would not include a hell parked somewhere on the planet.
You probably represent the majority opinion among Christians so I do not want to be harsh in my criticism. I have a different opinion but I do not think it is a result of lack of faith but how I was taught in my particular church.

[six7s]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?
You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!Please, if you think you have something to offer that is worthy of critical thought and analysis, start one new thread per topic with titles like:
Prophesies fulfilled in scripture

Archaeological Evidence for God' or 'Jesus' or 'Satan]

Scientific proof for God' or 'Jesus' or 'Satan']

Otherwise, please resist the urge to make vacuous claims

TYIA :)

[Lrrr]

No, I believe he uses Satan to test peoples hearts and minds.

Why does he need to test people's hearts and minds? According to you (and correct me if I'm wrong), God loves us all and will accept us into heaven if we accept him. What is the point of these tests?

Why does he use Satan when he could do it himself? Does he just not want the bad PR?

Why are innocent people hurt in the test of someone else?

God has promised to forgive us our sins when we ask him too. How do you think someone comes to this point of accepting God's grace? I know it's a supernatural gift that God grants repentance to some of us, but how do you view it? Do you think people can even come to this point in their life without God drawing them?

I don't think anyone comes to this point as I do not believe there is a God.

[Foster Zygote]

What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
You mean when the people writing works of fiction made their stories conform to ancient prophecies?

What about all the archeological evidence?
Such as?

What about all the scientific proof?
Such as?

You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!
What things?

Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!
And I hope that Santa brings you that pony for Christmas.

[Lrrr]

Okay Mr critical thinker

Nice put down. Unfortunately it does not advance your argument.

What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?


What about it? You have not provided one shred of evidence for any of this except "it's in the bible".

[joobz]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture? What fullfilled scriptures?
What about all the archeological evidence?
what archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?
what scientific proof?

You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!
There's nothing to ignore as you have never presented any such things.



Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!
KK, this is rather arrogant. You actually beleive you aren't the blinded one when you can't even make one single reasoned argument?

[joobz]

Actually, the argument both she and her husband have put forward regarding prophecies is even worse than that. Usually they will point to Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and the lot to show how they predicted the coming of Jesus Christ. Then they will point to the New Testament to show how all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Incredible!

Not.
"For neither can live while the other survives" Came true as well!!!

[Elizabeth I]

God has promised to forgive us our sins when we ask him too.

"When we ask Him too"? Who else do we have to ask?

Okay Mr critical thinker,

Infantile response - why didn't you just say, "OK, Poopyhead"?

What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?

Aren't any.

What about all the archeological evidence?

Isn't any.

What about all the scientific proof?

Isn't any.

[Elizabeth I]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah, but we are still in the time of gentiles being saved so unfortunately it does seem many Jews are still blind to the truth about Jesus. As I understand it more Jews will come to faith in Christ through the great tribulation which is surely getting closer each day.

...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth. So then God lied to the Jews when he made that covenant, and if God is a liar, how can you trust anything he says?

Or, if God first made the covenant with the Jews, then changed his mind when he sent Jesus, how do you know that he won't change his mind again someday and you'll find yourself out in the cold? What if he says, "Oops, I was wrong, it is the Jews after all"? Or, "Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.

I have asked you these questions before, in several other threads, and you have always ignored them. What is your answer? Is God a liar, or will he just change his mind on you?

[kurious_kathy]

Wikipedia does go along with what you have written here in your post concerning the distinction. It says that the dead are in hades up until the judgment, them get tossed into gehenna.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia on gehenna:
"Gehenna is cited in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the final place where the wicked will be punished or destroyed after resurrection." It seems to allow a difference of opinion between the damned being destroyed, or being further punished. I go with the former and think the latter is difficult to support for a couple of reasons.
I think Jesus was speaking metaphoricaly about undying worms. I doubt that literal worms are going to be living in a fire.
It also seems inconsistent with what we would sense as being justice. An eternal suffering for everyone may be unfair if someone who lived a decent life gets the same punishment as a serial killer.
God wiping away all tears would not be an accurate statement if there were people living inside a fire. Also it would be difficult for the people not in the fire to be especially happy knowing their unsaved loved ones were over the hill being cooked.
I think God puts a final end to all evil, otherwise what is the purpose of it all. God wants to make a total restoration of the world to where it should have been if there had not been the introduction of sin. That would not include a hell parked somewhere on the planet.
You probably represent the majority opinion among Christians so I do not want to be harsh in my criticism. I have a different opinion but I do not think it is a result of lack of faith but how I was taught in my particular church.

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God? Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. Are you sure your not Emergent? These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me.

You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

[six7s]

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God? What about the idea that, in a discussion, you answer relevant questions directed to you before asking inane questions of others?

[Hokulele]

Woo fight!

(Not directed at you, six7s.)

[proudnonbbeliever]

Kurious Kathy,

do you have any evidence supporting your claim that humans have souls?

[Ethnikos]

1) What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have 2) fellowship with God? 3) Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. 4) Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or 5) hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? 6) Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. 7) Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. 8) Are you sure your not Emergent? 9) These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me. 10)

11) You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

1) Being created automatically negates being eternal, just by definition.
2) Burning in Hell=Quality time with God?
3) Souls were created by the combination of the dust of the Earth with the life force spirit from God. They were meant to remain that way and no provision was made for the soul to exist in any other state than the one it was created in.
4) Jesus died for the opportunity of everyone to be able to live in a Kingdom of God, since the kingdom of Satan is ending soon. The desire for life should be sufficient motivation to reach out to Jesus to accept his gift.
5) My theory about hell is that things were so bad in the Dark Ages that the old Greek idea of Hades may have looked like an improvement over a lot of people's current lives, so the instructors in religion to the people felt they had to step up the unpleasant aspects of hell.
6) "The gates of hell will not prevail against it", "it" meaning the church. This would be, in one aspect of the saying, the fact that the death of individuals of the church is not their ultimate end, since Jesus had conquered death by being raised from the dead. The other aspect of the saying has to do with the concept that the death of individuals by the forces of evil will not abolish the church, as it will always exist, even if it is but a remnant of its former self.
7) Like I said in my earlier post, having a difference of opinion is not always an indication that someone has fallen from the faith, it just may be that their original faith always was of that opinion. Being different does not always make someone automatically wrong. There is a lot of variation between the doctrines of different denominations. The fact that exists does not make everyone wrong by default. If that was true, your denomination would be wrong too, just by the fact that you exist.
8) I looked up Emergent in Wikipedia and it seems to be some sort of "post-modernist" phenomenon that I am sure I am not part of.
9) I believe in hell, just that it says it is destroyed.
10) Give me a link to an example and I will examine it.
11) I think the parables of Jesus were meant to be spiritualized. I hope you do not think you should cut off your hand and pluck out your eye, literally.

[six7s]

1) What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have 2) fellowship with God? 3) Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. 4) Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or 5) hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? 6) Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. 7) Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. 8) Are you sure your not Emergent? 9) These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me. 10)

11) You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!1) Being created automatically negates being eternal, just by definition.
2) Burning in Hell=Quality time with God?
3) Souls were created by the combination of the dust of the Earth with the life force spirit from God. They were meant to remain that way and no provision was made for the soul to exist in any other state than the one it was created in.
4) Jesus died for the opportunity of everyone to be able to live in a Kingdom of God, since the kingdom of Satan is ending soon. The desire for life should be sufficient motivation to reach out to Jesus to accept his gift.
5) My theory about hell is that things were so bad in the Dark Ages that the old Greek idea of Hades may have looked like an improvement over a lot of people's current lives, so the instructors in religion to the people felt they had to step up the unpleasant aspects of hell.
6) "The gates of hell will not prevail against it", "it" meaning the church. This would be, in one aspect of the saying, the fact that the death of individuals of the church is not their ultimate end, since Jesus had conquered death by being raised from the dead. The other aspect of the saying has to do with the concept that the death of individuals by the forces of evil will not abolish the church, as it will always exist, even if it is but a remnant of its former self.
7) Like I said in my earlier post, having a difference of opinion is not always an indication that someone has fallen from the faith, it just may be that their original faith always was of that opinion. Being different does not always make someone automatically wrong. There is a lot of variation between the doctrines of different denominations. The fact that exists does not make everyone wrong by default. If that was true, your denomination would be wrong too, just by the fact that you exist.
8) I looked up Emergent in Wikipedia and it seems to be some sort of "post-modernist" phenomenon that I am sure I am not part of.
9) I believe in hell, just that it says it is destroyed.
10) Give me a link to an example and I will examine it.
11) I think the parables of Jesus were meant to be spiritualized. I hope you do not think you should cut off your hand and pluck out your eye, literally.End of round one

Peanuts!

Hot Dogs!

Popcorn!

Beer!

Get 'em in folks! This one's gonna go the full 15!

[Ethnikos]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.
he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth.
Paul, as in the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, should have some sort of answer.
Jesus worked to carry out the promise to Abraham. After all it was most likely the pre-incarnate Jesus who transmitted the word of God to Abraham, in the first place, as the representative of God. Jesus did say that before Abraham, he was.
Jesus was the seed of Abraham and Jesus made a great nation that is worldwide, by allowing all to be adopted. Paul says grafted onto the tree.
So Jesus could be likened to a second Abraham, just like in Hebrews where it is said Jesus is a priest of the order of Melchizedek. That was the King of Salem who Abraham paid tithes to. Jesus is our high priest and is our advocate before God, and he can only be that because we become his nation, which is the extended version of Abraham's.
I am all for gentiles being saved. That's my posting name, which is the word used in the Greek New Testament for gentile and do not ever imagine myself being a literal Jew. Paul goes against normal human understanding by saying, "there is no longer a distinction between Jew and gentile." To me, that kind of disqualifies the notion of a dispensation of the gentiles.

[Ethnikos]

End of round one
This one's gonna go the full 15!I do not want to beat up Kathy.
I realize she had a vision of Hell and that it was something similar to what she believes it would be like. I do not want to dispel her belief that her vision was accurate. But unless her vision lasted eternally, there is no way to tell how long exactly one would remain in this state of having flames wrapped around your body, or whatever the image is.
My explanation of the final judgement and destruction of the wicked allows for a certain duration of painful experience to be felt, according to the severity of pain that a person had inflicted on others during their lifetime.
Kathy's vision, I would hope, is a little hypothetical, as in she may have had a glimpse at how someone who was really bad would feel when they get theirs. This may have lasted for some time. So, she can keep her vision and I am not knocking it. Just this horrific scene of judgement would be enough for me, even without the actual burning part, to not want to be involved in it. I do not feel at all like wanting to make it worse than it already is.

[Flo]

I do not want to beat up Kathy.

At least not in front of all those atheists who are having a ball seeing two peddlers of woo trying to outpreach one another ... But you sure both would love to convince each other of the superiority of your personnal delusions. :D

[six7s]

I do not want to beat up KathyYou can't... against her ducking and weaving, even Muhammad would sting like a butterfly and float like a brick

[Pure Argent]

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God? Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other.

a) Prove that we have souls (I believe it, but I can't support the belief, and neither can you)
b) Prove that Heaven and Hell exist
c) Prove that the soul goes on for eternity (see a.)
Jesus did not die in vain my friend No. He didn't die at all. a) he didn't exist and b) he came back, and KNEW he'd come back. It was an empty gesture., and if people have no fear of God or hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent?

If they don't believe in God, then they don't believe they need to repent. Give one example of an atheist who repented their sins because they believed they would go to hell.

Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever.

Your view makes no sense to reality whatsoever.

Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. Are you sure your not Emergent? These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me.

There are Christians who don't believe in Hell. Several of my family members, for example. They do believe in perpetual Purgatory, however.

You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often.

You're not allowed to spiritualize scripture? WTF? Isn't that the POINT?

Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

If you actually respond to any of this, I will be astonished.




Tonight! On Randi! It's a Double-Trouble Tag-Team Throwdown! Kurious_Kathy takes on Ethnikos and Pure_Argent!

...

Or whatever.

[TimCallahan]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?


1) If you read my book, Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?, you will find strong, specific evidence that, indeed, the Bible's prophecies are either too vague to be tested, demonstrably written after the fact or plainly and simply flat out wrong. Several people on this thread have already challenged you to come up with one fulfilled biblical prophecy. Let's hear it.

2) As to the archaeological evidence, it's largely equivocal. On another thread, I've pointed out that the archaeological evidence that should be there to support the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan by Joshua simply isn't there. This is particularly striking because the archaeologists who discovered this unfortunate fact were Christians, who went to Palestine for the express purpose of finding the evidence of Joshua's conquest. Many of them, being honest men, suffered a crisis of faith when they found that either cities listed in Josua weren't inhabited at the time of the conquest or that the cities supposdely destroyed show no signs of destruction at that period.

We do have the Merneptah Victory Stela, whose inscription mentions a tribal group called "Israel" living in Canaan ca. 1200 BCE, and the Tel Dan inscription, made in all probability by Hazael, prince of Damascus, which mentions the "king of the House of David." In addition we have Assyrian records mentioning various kings of Israel and Judah. However, there is absolutely nothing in either archaeoloy or history to support either the united kingdom of Israel and Judah under David and Solomon or the destruction of the Assyrian army under Sennacherib.

As far as the "empty tomb" of Jesus, in the year CE 70 the Roman army under Titus utterly flattened Jerusalem. Any tomb that might have housed the body of Jesus was either flattened along with everything else or buried in rubble.

So, of what archaeological proof are you speaking?

3) What about the scientific proof? What scientific proof are you talking about? The fact that the earth is billions of years old, rather than a few thousand years old? The worldwde flood, that science has demonstrated did not happen (see Dr. Donald Prothero's lecture to the Skeptics Society, "The Breathtaking Inanity of Flood Geology")? I do hope you're not going to trot out that tire bit of tripe about Joshua's missing day.

So, again, give us one piece of scientific evidence that supports your position.

Okay, Kathy, here's your golden opportunity to flatten me with the evidence. Again: that's one specificly fulfilled prophecy, one bit of archaeological evidence backing a biblical text and one piece of scientific data supporting either the Bble or the exisence of a god.

[kurious_kathy]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.

If you will read in the Bible Matt. 21: 43-44 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[a]

& Matt. 23:35-39 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[a]"

I believe you can see more clearly what happened to Isreal in these two passages. This clearly states why salvation is more available to the gentile nations rather than the Jews. We are still in the church age and at the end more Jews will come to know Christ and be saved than ever before. God isn't through yet!

[six7s]

Elizabeth if you knew God <circularIllogicSnipped/>Fixed that for you :)

Yes, it's a big if... i.e. it seems highly likely that no-one knows god... cos in all probability, all gods are mythological...

Bearing in mind that NONE of your posts even come close to suggesting otherwise, I am curious to know why you post on this forum :confused:

[kurious_kathy]

Please show some evidence to support your claims. Since you haven't, we reserve the right to disregard your claims.
You guys have seen much of the evidence already and all you do is deny it. Why do we even try to reach you when you choose to be blind to all the evidence that is available?

Have you even checked out the articles I have linked to on alwaysbeready.com's website? http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71
Many men have already spent time and energy making these documents available for you to read so I will challenge you to go read.

Also What about Josh McDowells book, "Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof! I will even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.

[Hokulele]

Also What about Josh McDowells book, Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof! I will even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.


You have some gall, asking people to read books.

[Elizabeth I]

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.

If you will read in the Bible Matt. 21: 43-44 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[a]

& Matt. 23:35-39 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[a]"

I believe you can see more clearly what happened to Isreal in these two passages. This clearly states why salvation is more available to the gentile nations rather than the Jews. We are still in the church age and at the end more Jews will come to know Christ and be saved than ever before. God isn't through yet!

None of your blether changes the fact that, according to the Bible, God made a promise to the Jews, then, according to you, took that promise back. So either (a) He lied when He made the promise in the first place, so how can you believe a thing He says now? or (b) He changed His mind, so you have nothing to count on, since He could always change it again.

Think about it: if your minister said to you, "I know you and your husband are having a hard time, so here is a house for you. It's yours forever - here's the title and the key to the front door and everything," then came back ten years later and said, "I found some people I like better so I'm taking the house back and giving it to them," would you ever trust a word he said again?

[joobz]

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

there's a problem here. I wonder where it is. ;)

[Paulhoff]

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.
It is funny that you can't even see the fault with that thinking.

KK, do you know how your radio works, or your TV, car, phone, computer, etc, etc. No, you haven't a clue, but damn, the so-called most complicated thing in the universe, and boy you know everything about it.


In two words non-kurious_kathy, BS.

Paul

:) :) :)

[joobz]

You guys have seen much of the evidence already and all you do is deny it. Why do we even try to reach you when you choose to be blind to all the evidence that is available?
Because the evidence you provide is as good as the evidence Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists... All provide. Why should I believe you over them?

Don't answer. The short of it is that your evidence is poor.

Have you even checked out the articles I have linked to on alwaysbeready.com's website? http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71
Many men have already spent time and energy making these documents available for you to read so I will challenge you to go read.
And you were challenged to read Ehrman, but you failed to do so. That called Hypocritical.

Also What about Josh McDowells book, "Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof!
I've read it up to the point where it attempted to claim that the bible was unchanged for 2000 years Even when I was christian, I knew that for the lie it was.

Even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.
A book of lies is still a book of lies. Why do you support such nonsense?

[six7s]

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

there's a problem here. I wonder where it is. ;)The evil is in the etales

[supercorgi]

You guys have seen much of the evidence already and all you do is deny it. Why do we even try to reach you when you choose to be blind to all the evidence that is available?

Have you even checked out the articles I have linked to on alwaysbeready.com's website? http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71
Many men have already spent time and energy making these documents available for you to read so I will challenge you to go read.

Also What about Josh McDowells book, "Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof! I will even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.

OK Kathy, I'm taking you on. I've done graduate work in archeology, so I know how to evaluate archeological evidence. I doubt you've even read the material linked to from the website. You just seem to parrot the home page of that website where Charlie Campbell (who's trying to sell books and DVDs) says:

“What evidence do you have that the Bible is actually true?”

If I had to narrow it down to a few evidences, I would probably say: fulfilled prophecies, archaeological discoveries, and the Bible’s amazing unity.

Yet he, himself provides no archeological evidence. Curious eh? He has links to other sites but they also provide no evidence from qualified archeologists. Just supposition and questionable conclusions. For example, there is a website from John McRay (who I can find no references to his credentials except he's a Christian apologist). His "archeological evidence" consists of a list of cities and features that were well known at that time. Just because a feature exists doesn't mean the Bible is true. I could find a writing that said aliens landed in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles -- just because these cities existed doesn't mean that aliens actually landed there; any more than the existence of London means that the events in Harry Potter are true. If you can't understand this -- you know squat about archeological evidence.

Yes, lots of the cities mentioned in the Bible existed, that doesn't mean the the events cited or the miracles mentioned actually happened. All it means is that the people of the times knew these were real locations and chose to stage Bible events in these locations.

For example he mentions:

Romans 13:3 Inscription in Caesarea Maritima

While I was excavating at Caesarea on the coast of Israel in 1972, we uncovered a large mosaic inscription of the Greek text of Romans 13:3. A shorter one had been found in 1960 by an Israeli archaeologist, Abraham Negev. (who I also can not find any mention or academic creditions for.) The two texts, dating to at least the fifth century, are part of a mosaic floor of a large public building (perhaps a praetorium or archives building) and are identical to that passage in the Greek New Testament. These are as old as some of our oldest manuscripts of the New Testament

Yet he gives no academic cites nor does he describe the inscriptions or what similarities they have to Bible passages.

You have no knowledge of archeology or of archeological methods. I sincerely doubt you've even read most of the material on that site. There was next to no archeological evidence provided by the site and what was provided had no academic cites and was seriously lacking in any academical strength. Most of that site was criticism of other Christian sects such as Catholism, Calvinism, Christian Scientists, et al.

There is NO archeological evidence for the validity of the Bible. All there is is archeological evidence that certain places did exist during Biblical times. This is such information that anyone writing in 100 AD would know about and be able to incorporate in their writings.

Kathy, you and the Bible fail on this so called "evidence." If you know of one valid piece of archeological evidence that the Bible is true, please give specifics so I can evaluate its merits. Citing apologetic websites with vague references is not enough. You fail. Your evidence is fiction set against a historical background. Just because Homer wrote about the Trojan wars and we've found the city of Troy, doesn't mean that Apollo, Aprodite, and the other Greek gods participated in that supposed war.

[kurious_kathy]

And you were challenged to read Ehrman, but you failed to do so. That called Hypocritical.

Excuse me? I bought that stupid audio book and listened to it twice. If you don't believe I listened to it that's your problem because I did and I'm not discussing it anymore as I found that book a waste of time and I know the author is going to wish he never wrote it when he meets his maker. I wouldn't want to be in Ehrman's shoes on judgement day. Talk about someone influenced by Satan!

[Hokulele]

Excuse me? I bought that stupid audio book and listened to it twice. If you don't believe I listened to it that's your problem because I did and I'm not discussing it anymore as I found that book a waste of time and I know the author is going to wish he never wrote it when he meets his maker. I wouldn't want to be in Ehrman's shoes on judgement day. Talk about someone influenced by Satan!


I do believe you bought it and listened, but I do not believe you heard and understood the vast majority of it. When you were questioned as to the contents, you made it quite clear you weren't familiar with what Ehrman said. At best, it appeared that you read the description on the cover rather than heard the message within.

This is why I, and others, find your reading requirements hypocritical, if not down right insulting. Why is it that you expect us to approach your recommendations with an open mind when you repeatedly refuse to return the courtesy? Is your faith so weak that it cannot face honest examination (which is what is contained in Ehrman's book), much less a serious challenge?

If you ever change your mind and decide to demonstrate open-mindedness and faith rather than simply prattling on about it, let me know. I am always up for a book swap.

[kurious_kathy]

Which is the great irony of religion: many claim some immutable "Truth" that only they can lay claim to (with "evidence" from their holy texts, I might add), yet these claims contradict one another, leading to an obvious paradox...

... how can multiple religions all lay claim to the "one True path" when they disagree with each other? Answer: they can't.

I can anticipate what folks like KK will likely say, because when I was a kid asking these questions I got the usual "we're right, they're wrong, we're going to heaven, they're going to hell, so get on board with us" nonsense. Which is, of course, nothing more than attempting to scare people into going along with the rest of the herd. It was childish then, and it's childish now.

Even at 15 or 16, I realized the only solution to this paradox that made any sense to me then (and still does)...

They're all wrong. They're all just making it up. Rather than admit that they don't really know (which frightens them to no end), they'd just as soon make up fairy-tales, claim "ultimate Truth", and use all these smoke & mirrors as a cover for their own ignorance, fear, and inadequacy.

Can you really afford to be wrong MM? I am only here sharing the truth of Jesus with people because he opened my eyes when he saved me. He is the one spurring me on here so all have a chance of coming to repentance as this is the perfect will of God.

And I would like to add, if Jesus saved you like he did me you would certainly change your tune, I guarantee that. He's the one that lights a holy fire in us to tell this disbelieving world he is the only way to the Father! Many of you have heard the warning but I would seriously take it to heart as we are telling you the truth that can save a mans soul. Jesus did die on calvary and his shed blood cleanses all from our sins and unrighteousness. He makes us new in him and it is a new beginning knowing one day you have the promise of living forever. Now why would anyone in their right mind miss out on this?

[Hokulele]

Can you really afford to be wrong MM? I am only here sharing the truth of Jesus with people because he opened my eyes when he saved me. He is the one spurring me on here so all have a chance of coming to repentance as this is the perfect will of God.

And I would like to add, if Jesus saved you like he did me you would certainly change your tune, I guarantee that. He's the one that lights a holy fire in us to tell this disbelieving world he is the only way to the Father! Many of you have heard the warning but I would seriously take it to heart as we are telling you the truth that can save a mans soul. Jesus did die on calvary and his shed blood cleanses all from our sins and unrighteousness. He makes us new in him and it is a new beginning knowing one day you have the promise of living forever. Now why would anyone in their right mind miss out on this?


Did you even read the post you are quoting?

Too funny. :D

[kurious_kathy]

I do believe you bought it and listened, but I do not believe you heard and understood the vast majority of it. When you were questioned as to the contents, you made it quite clear you weren't familiar with what Ehrman said. At best, it appeared that you read the description on the cover rather than heard the message within.

This is why I, and others, find your reading requirements hypocritical, if not down right insulting. Why is it that you expect us to approach your recommendations with an open mind when you repeatedly refuse to return the courtesy? Is your faith so weak that it cannot face honest examination (which is what is contained in Ehrman's book), much less a serious challenge?

If you ever change your mind and decide to demonstrate open-mindedness and faith rather than simply prattling on about it, let me know. I am always up for a book swap.

Okay Hokulele, but it's hard to remember everything in a book when it's an audio and I really did not want to sit down and take notes on it while I listened to it because most of what he shared I just couldn't wrap my head around as his view is opposing to mine. In my opinion the author was totally deceived on the subject of pain and why God not only allows it in our lives, but why he uses it for a greater purpose. He cares more about our character than anything and if life had no painful lessons we probably would never acknowledge our need to grow and change through the whole thing. I know it's not easy to accept sometimes when people sometimes suffer horrible things. but God's in control even when we don't understand what he allows and why.

I just thought it was strange someone like you who apparently has never really suffered would even pick such a subject. I can relate to pain more than lots of people beause I have gone through some really tough stuff, but people like you who have not had to suffer according to your own admitance I don't understand why you would even investigate it? I mean most of us usally have a motive when we are wanting to learn about a topic but what was your motive in wanting to understand if there is a God then why is there suffering? I really and puzzled by your interest in it I guess. I even think you purposely used this book to try to derail me from my life of faith. It didn't work if that was your motive. I can say like Job even though the Lord slay me, yet will I praise him.

[Hokulele]

Okay Hokulele, but it's hard to remember everything in a book when it's an audio and I really did not want to sit down and take notes on it while I listened to it...


But that was exactly what the whole thing was about. I would take notes on a reading of your choice (which I did), and you would do the same. We would then discuss what was read, on both sides of an issue, and see what each could learn from the other.

...because most of what he shared I just couldn't wrap my head around as his view is opposing to mine.


Again, that was the whole point. You can't think that I share many opinions with Charlie Campbell. And yet, I still read, pondered, and commented on what he wrote. The whole point of skepticism and critical thinking is to examine viewpoints that may run counter to your own.

In my opinion the author was totally deceived on the subject of pain and why God not only allows it in our lives, but why he uses it for a greater purpose. He cares more about our character than anything and if life had no painful lessons we probably would never acknowledge our need to grow and change through the whole thing. I know it's not easy to accept sometimes when people sometimes suffer horrible things. but God's in control even when we don't understand what he allows and why.


Meaning, you didn't even bother to get listen to the introduction, much less the body of the book. As was pointed out to you more than once, this type of objection was not only examined and countered, but the author took it a step further and offered solutions to the problem of suffering, rather than the sanctimonious, yet cowardly, solution of simply accepting it, and even approving of it. That is why people have such a poor reaction to many of your posts, you appear to approve of other's suffering, and even encourage it.

Ick.

I just thought it was strange someone like you who apparently has never really suffered would even pick such a subject. I can relate to pain more than lots of people beause I have gone through some really tough stuff, but people like you who have not had to suffer according to your own admitance I don't understand why you would even investigate it? I mean most of us usally have a motive when we are wanting to learn about a topic but what was your motive in wanting to understand if there is a God then why is there suffering? I really and puzzled by your interest in it I guess. I even think you purposely used this book to try to derail me from my life of faith. It didn't work if that was your motive. I can say like Job even though the Lord slay me, yet will I praise him.


Poor you. And here you are, with your husband out of work and all, about to vacation on Maui starting next week. :rolleyes:

But to answer your question, my interest in that book was due to a thread called "Scriptural Literacy", on this very sub-forum, where other works by Ehrman were discussed. It had nothing to do with derailing your life of faith, but everything to do with trying to get you to understand why others do not share your opinions. You see, I could not possibly care less how you conduct your personal life, but I care quite a bit how you try to scare others into sharing a life of fear and submission. I care quite a bit how you demean people I know and love, such as Ducky and Roadtoad. I care quite a bit that you demand things of people you have never met that you yourself would never attempt. I care that you act as if you have so little respect for your fellow human beings that you refuse to even consider understanding another point of view.

And as a final note, if suffering is required for faith to flourish, thanks, but no thanks.

[proudnonbbeliever]

Ah, Hokulele, everything that makes kk uncomfortable is clearly the work of satan.

I wonder if that includes me...:boggled:

[joobz]

Poor you. And here you are, with your husband out of work and all, about to vacation on Maui starting next week. :rolleyes:
and this, my friends, is what is called pwnage.

[Pure Argent]

kurious_kathy, I would like you to know that I am reading your articles on ABR.com right now. I will post with comments on them later. However...

Can you really afford to be wrong MM?

There are thousands of religions. What is the probability that yours is correct? Same as the others, that's what. Almost nil. So just don't pick one, since you're going to be wrong anyway and you might as well live your life without all that pseudo-philosophical garbage.

I am only here sharing the truth of Jesus with people because he opened my eyes when he saved me. He is the one spurring me on here so all have a chance of coming to repentance as this is the perfect will of God.

A phrase repeated hundreds of times over hundreds of years by hundreds of cultists just like you.


And I would like to add, if Jesus saved you like he did me you would certainly change your tune, I guarantee that.

Well duh. Circular logic again. "If you believed in Jesus, you would believe in Jesus!"

He's the one that lights a holy fire in us (ouch) to tell this disbelieving world he is the only way to the Father! Many of you have heard the warning but I would seriously take it to heart as we are telling you the truth that can save a mans soul. Jesus did die on calvary and his shed blood cleanses all from our sins and unrighteousness. He makes us new in him and it is a new beginning knowing one day you have the promise of living forever.

See first comment.

Now why would anyone in their right mind miss out on this?

Why would anyone in their right mind submit to this?



Okay Hokulele, but it's hard to remember everything in a book when it's an audio and I really did not want to sit down and take notes on it while I listened to it because most of what he shared I just couldn't wrap my head around as his view is opposing to mine.

TRANSLATION: I won't listen to what he says because he says I'm wrong.

In my opinion the author was totally deceived on the subject of pain and why God not only allows it in our lives, but why he uses it for a greater purpose. He cares more about our character than anything and if life had no painful lessons we probably would never acknowledge our need to grow and change through the whole thing. I know it's not easy to accept sometimes when people sometimes suffer horrible things. but God's in control even when we don't understand what he allows and why.

God is all-powerful, right? He could have just made us perfect. Why not? The only reason (besides the fact that he doesn't exist) is that he likes to mess with our heads. He likes to control things. He is a selfish being who created the universe solely as his own entertainment and cares little for us. Did you read my earlier thread, "The Rebellion"?

I just thought it was strange someone like you who apparently has never really suffered would even pick such a subject.

Prove that Hokulele has never suffered, that he is not lying on a hospital bed right now dying of simultaneous cancer and anthrax. And the plague.

I can relate to pain more than lots of people beause I have gone through some really tough stuff,

So f***ing what? So has everyone. The little starving children in Ethiopia and India.

but people like you who have not had to suffer according to your own admitance I don't understand why you would even investigate it? I mean most of us usally have a motive when we are wanting to learn about a topic but what was your motive in wanting to understand if there is a God then why is there suffering?

You claim to want to know and understand God, but you refuse to examine his motives?

I really and puzzled by your interest in it I guess. I even think you purposely used this book to try to derail me from my life of faith. It didn't work if that was your motive.

Yes, it was. You try to prove to us that your faith is correct - "derail us from our lives of atheism" - and we try to prove to you that our lack of faith is correct. This is what we call a debate, KK. An honest exchange of opinions and evidence to affect mutual increase in knowledge.

I can say like Job even though the Lord slay me, yet will I praise him.

That's just sad, and obviously a result of deep brainwashing. Again, have you read "The Rebellion"?

[Pure Argent]

Okay, listening to "Answers to Skeptics' Top Five Questions" audio file. Here's my thoughts as he goes on:

- He says that evidence is all around us, but the majority of the "evidence" he gives is that the Bible says that atheism is foolish. Simple "we're-right-you're-wrong"-ism.
- He says several things on the subject of Stephen Hawking, claiming that "the atheistic community lives off the things that this guy says." He also says that Hawking is of the opinion that the universe had a beginning. What he fails to acknowledge is that just because the universe had a beginning doesn't mean that it had a creator. The two are not mutually inclusive.
- He says that the option that the universe created itself is "philosophically impossible." First off, nothing is philosophically impossible. Philosophy is considering things. You can't not be able to consider something. Second of all, it is not impossible that the universe created itself. Outside the bounds of our universe, the Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy do not necessarily apply. The matter that later led to the Big Bag could have come spontaneously into being, even though it seems impossible to us. Things like that don't happen in our universe, but they could in (or outside) others.
- "Obviously a nonexistent universe could not have created itself... we all know that nothing cannot do anything." Again, outside our universe, the Laws of Cause and Effect don't necessarily apply. It could have created itself.
- Okay, now he's brought up the Laws himself. Again, he fails to admit that the Laws have only been proven to hold true inside our universe.
- He fails to even examine the third option, that there is a Creator. He fails to address the question "How did God come to exist?"
- Useless analogy about painters.
- He talks about fulfilled prophecies, stating that other holy books do not contain ANY fulfilled prophecies. Not a single one contains any specific fulfilled prophecies. He states that the Bible contains fulfilled prophecies, failing to address the issue that all prophecies in the Bible are "fulfilled" by the later contents of the Bible.
- He now says that 27% of the prophecies are fulfilled, then equates this to 1 in 4 of the verses being true. Prophecy does not equal verse.
- Now he even cites the self-fulfilling Bible prophecies as support for his argument. I'm getting incredibly sick of this.
- Archaeological evidence now. Anyone care to look up this stone that he's talking about and tell me when it was debunked as a hoax? Skipping the rest of this section, might go back and listen to it later.
- Okay, screw this. I'm done.

That's as much as I got through before I turned it off. Kathy, so far this appears to be the exact same arguments that you have been using on this site. That is to say, every one is either a lie, circular logic, or simply ignores the facts. Do you have anything to say in his/your defense?

[bokonon]

Can you really afford to be wrong MM?
I can afford it as well as you can.

I am only here sharing the truth of Jesus with people because he opened my eyes when he saved me. He is the one spurring me on here so all have a chance of coming to repentance as this is the perfect will of God.
Can't possibly be the perfect will of an omnipotent being, or it would have found a more effective mouthpiece. If a tree knocked on my door, I'd listen to what it had to say. Parade of Jehovah's Witnesses? Not interested.

Now why would anyone in their right mind miss out on this?
Because it isn't true. Life is short, and I don't have time for such nonsense.

[bokonon]

on the subject of pain and why God not only allows it in our lives, but why he uses it for a greater purpose. He cares more about our character than anything and if life had no painful lessons we probably would never acknowledge our need to grow and change through the whole thing.
If you build it right the first time, you don't have to torture it into growing and changing into something you can be proud of.

Your relationship with this God of yours sounds like the the rationalizations of an abused spouse.

I know it's not easy to accept sometimes when people sometimes suffer horrible things. but God's in control even when we don't understand what he allows and why.
As mere humans, we encounter circumstances we can't control, and I can see how it might be comforting to believe that there is a higher power watching over us and orchestrating events for our benefit. I don't believe that is the case, but I can understand how someone who prefers to remain a child would find that view appealing.

I can say like Job even though the Lord slay me, yet will I praise him.
Battered woman syndrome, pure and simple. "It's my fault he beat me. I'll do better."

I think there might be less pain in your life if you stopped focusing on how much better things will be after you're dead, and started focusing on what specific steps you can take today to improve your situation. As long as you maintain this "God is in control, it doesn't matter what I do or don't do" attitude, you'll likely continue to drift aimlessly, thinking your life has purpose, but foolishly spending most of your time simply parroting fairy tales.

[TimCallahan]

Kathy: I'm still waiting for you to come up with specific answers to the questions and challenges I listed in my last post. These are:

1) Several people on this thread have already challenged you to come up with one fulfilled biblical prophecy. Let's hear it.

2) So, of what archaeological proof are you speaking?

3) So, again, give us one piece of scientific evidence that supports your position.

Again: that's one specificly fulfilled prophecy, one bit of archaeological evidence backing a biblical text and one piece of scientific data supporting either the Bible or the exisence of God. Unless I'm missing something, the websites to which you have directed posters on this thread don't give those specifics. Since you seem certain that such evidence exists, why don't you simply state what it is? Then we can stop wasting time with vague generalizations. We will have specific, possible testable points.

[Lucian]

I just thought it was strange someone like you who apparently has never really suffered would even pick such a subject.

Prove that Hokulele has never suffered, that he is not lying on a hospital bed right now dying of simultaneous cancer and anthrax. And the plague.

I can relate to pain more than lots of people beause I have gone through some really tough stuff,

So f***ing what? So has everyone. The little starving children in Ethiopia and India.

but people like you who have not had to suffer according to your own admitance I don't understand why you would even investigate it? I mean most of us usally have a motive when we are wanting to learn about a topic but what was your motive in wanting to understand if there is a God then why is there suffering?

You claim to want to know and understand God, but you refuse to examine his motives?

KK can't seem to conceive that anyone might be Kurious about something without having a deep personal investment in it, that they might have interests beyond themselves. For KK, the dreamiest deity on the varsity God-Squad asked her to the dance, and that's all that matters.

[TimCallahan]

And still I wait for a response from Kurious Kathy.

[supercorgi]

Kathy, you and the Bible fail on this so called "evidence." If you know of one valid piece of archeological evidence that the Bible is true, please give specifics so I can evaluate its merits. Citing apologetic websites with vague references is not enough. You fail. Your evidence is fiction set against a historical background. Just because Homer wrote about the Trojan wars and we've found the city of Troy, doesn't mean that Apollo, Aprodite, and the other Greek gods participated in that supposed war.

Kathy, I'm still waiting for some good archeological evidence that the bible is true. Some evidence that is cited and published in archeological journals. Where is it?

[supercorgi]

And still I wait for a response from Kurious Kathy.

Me too.

[shuttlt]

Kathy, I'm still waiting for some good archeological evidence that the bible is true. Some evidence that is cited and published in archeological journals. Where is it?
Does citing the Qur'an count? There's a bunch of stuff about Jesus in that... virgin birth etc.

[TimCallahan]

Does citing the Qur'an count? There's a bunch of stuff about Jesus in that... virgin birth etc.

In a word: no. The material on Jesus in the Qur'an - written between 600 an 700 - was cobbled from th Lucan Nativity and the noncanonical Infancy Gospels. The Talmud also mentions Jesus in material from ca. 300. It says that he studied magic in Egypt, made cuttings in his own flesh and that the Jews put him to death - by stoning - for the crime of blasphemy.

[kurious_kathy]

And still I wait for a response from Kurious Kathy.

Hey Tim and Sc I am in Maui on a family vacation so some of my resources are at home and I can't get to it right now, plus I do not have this info memorized since archeology is not one of my specific areas of special interest or study. I just know there are many new discoveries especially in the last few years so I would not ignore that. I can share some of the other info I have for you once I get back home.

Also you can also easily find other archeological discoveries that are documented well if you'll pick up a copy of an Archeology Bible. Since you seem very interested in this subject I think you'll find this resource very helpful. I do not own a copy myself but I have seen them and now maybe I'll buy one too so I can help others like you who have these kinds of questions.

P.S. I think this will have to be a new thread topic however because it has nothing to do with the OP.

[Paulhoff]

Also you can also easily find other archeological discoveries that are documented well if you'll pick up a copy of an Archeology Bible.
Sorry KK, but no real archaeologist thinks that book is archeology, it has no real credit.

http://northstatescience.blogspot.com/2007/09/war-to-rescue-biblical-archaeology.html

Paul

:) :) :)

[joobz]

Hey Tim and Sc I am in Maui on a family vacation so some of my resources are at home and I can't get to it right now, plus I do not have this info memorized since archeology is not one of my specific areas of special interest or study. I just know there are many new discoveries especially in the last few years so I would not ignore that. I can share some of the other info I have for you once I get back home.

Also you can also easily find other archeological discoveries that are documented well if you'll pick up a copy of an Archeology Bible. Since you seem very interested in this subject I think you'll find this resource very helpful. I do not own a copy myself but I have seen them and now maybe I'll buy one too so I can help others like you who have these kinds of questions.

P.S. I think this will have to be a new thread topic however because it has nothing to do with the OP.
That's fair. I will wait until you get back to start a new thread providing this archeological evidence. Until then, I shall assume that no such evidence exist and that the bible remains...fantasy developed from myths and legends that were greatly exaggerated stories of some likely true historical events.

[kurious_kathy]

Kurious_Kathy has not yet exhibited the capacity to think critically. Best I can tell, shes just a mindless proselytizer.

Oh so you don't think I came to the conclusion I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness using any critical thinking skills? That's messed up!

I think it takes way more guts and critical thinking skills to admit I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, than to make excuses to deny the truth. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!

[paximperium]

Oh so you don't think I came to the conclusion I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness using any critical thinking skills? Yes.

That's messed up! Most definitely

I think it takes way more guts and critical thinking skills to admit I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, than to make excuses to deny the truth. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay! You obviously have no idea what Critical Thinking actually means. Once you learn how to read a dictionary, come back and speak to the adults. Now run off and go play make-belief.

[JonathanClement]

Oh so you don't think I came to the conclusion I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness using any critical thinking skills? That's messed up!

I think it takes way more guts and critical thinking skills to admit I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, than to make excuses to deny the truth. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!

So why would God punish us for being the way he made us?

[Paulhoff]

We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!
So, we're not gods, big deal, we never said we where.

You think this so-called god made us, well he has done a bad job, and you want that to be our fault. That would be much like the customer being at fault for anything wrong with their car, but not the manufacture of their car.

It is your so-called god that has sinned, it is the one that should have to ask forgiveness from us, the ones that are stuck with its bad designs and plains, you have to all backwards KK.

Paul

:) :) :)

[joobz]

I think it takes way more guts and critical thinking skills to admit I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, than to make excuses to deny the truth. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!
Can you identify what skills these are which helps you admit you are a sinner?

Since your statement clearly implies that you have "way more critical thinking skills" than the rest of us, it shouldn't be hard for you to enumerate what these are and teach them to us.

[Pure Argent]

Oh so you don't think I came to the conclusion I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness using any critical thinking skills? That's messed up!

I think it takes way more guts and critical thinking skills to admit I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, than to make excuses to deny the truth. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!

^This

supports that |
V
Kurious_Kathy has not yet exhibited the capacity to think critically. Best I can tell, shes just a mindless proselytizer.

[six7s]

...without Jesus no one is unltimately going to be okay!With or without Jesus, everyone is ultimately going to be dead

If anyone has ANY evidence that contradicts this, then please do cite it

TYIA :)

[pakeha]

In reply to a query for sources of archeological evidence which confirms the bibical claims, KK wrote:

P.S. I think this will have to be a new thread topic however because it has nothing to do with the OP.
2nd August 2009 08:34 AM


Wrong, very wrong, kurious_kathy.
You yourself brought up the subject in this post:

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?
You are really not using your critical thinking skills if you have ignored the things!

Satan is so cunning at his game he has blinded you to the proof that God does exist, but I am praying God will open your eyes before it is too late for you!

So tell us about the archeological evidence, please.

[six7s]

Wrong, very wrong, kurious_kathy.<snip/>

So tell us about the archeological evidence, please.Dear KK,

I have a tip for you:
When - in a discussion on a critical thinking forum - you find yourself in a hole, stop digging

HTH :)

[Pure Argent]

Dear KK,

I have a tip for you:
When - in a discussion on a critical thinking forum - you find yourself in a hole, stop digging

HTH :)

Don't listen to him, KK! If you dig far enough you'll hit China!

:dig: