Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[EGarrett]

This is quite possibly the worst "debate" I've ever seen. I can't believe this is serious.

Their panel is an ex-hooker, a complete idiot, Deepak Chopra and an Ex-Minister both of whom are dressed like a Middle-Eastern pimps and wearing sunglasses indoors.

Chopra is actually the closest thing to the voice of reason. There is no scientific, atheist, or rationalist perspective offered.

E5UPW9D26oE

[Wangler]

There is no scientific, atheist, or rationalist perspective offered.

E5UPW9D26oE

Sounds like a tent revival put on by the IPCC.

[Steelmage]

Chopra is actually the closest thing to the voice of reason. There is no scientific, atheist, or rationalist perspective offered.


That there is quiet sad.

[Third Eye Open]

The devil is old news ever since the Vatican announced the discovery of the Super-Devil. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3a73d8811b/the-super-devil)

[Hamradioguy]

I saw this live on Nightline a few weeks back. And had the same take as EGarrett. Hell MUST have frozen over because I also identified Chopra as the voice of reason. Never thought I'd ever feel that way about him.

At one time Nightline had some pretty good topics and first rate presenters. Granted TV journalism is getting worse, but this Nightline "debate" was just pathetic. What were they thinking?

[jimtron]

OK, I've only watched the beginning, up to where the pastor is saying God is good, loving etc. I assume no one during the debate pointed out how many people God kills in the Bible vs. how many Satan kills?

[Monketey Ghost]

Tha Angel of Death rocks yer Passover

[MattusMaximus]

The stupid! It burns!!! :flamed:

ETA: You've got to wonder what the moderator was thinking... "I can't believe that I'm in the middle of all this stupid. What did I do to piss off ABC?"

[MattusMaximus]

I saw this live on Nightline a few weeks back. And had the same take as EGarrett. Hell MUST have frozen over because I also identified Chopra as the voice of reason. Never thought I'd ever feel that way about him.

Well, considering whom he was teamed up against, it's not hard to see Chopra as "the voice of reason" - but that's kind of an insult to reason, if you ask me.

ETA: I did find the opening remarks of the black minister in purple to be interesting, goofy but interesting. But the ex-hooker and evangelical pastor... wow, I think some of my neurons committed suicide listening to that drivel :rolleyes:

[MattusMaximus]

Okay, I just saw the bit where the ex-hooker started going on about how she was literally attacked & raped by demons... what the frak... why someone didn't just call her bat**** crazy right then and there I don't know.

[MattusMaximus]

Done watching it all... ugh. The part at the end where the evangelical preacher read from the Bible annoyed me to no end :rolleyes:

I have to wonder how much more interesting it would have been had Hitchens been there :)

[Robin]

Their panel is an ex-hooker, a complete idiot, Deepak Chopra and an Ex-Minister
Is that four people or three people and poor punctuation?

[Ysidro]

Okay, I just saw the bit where the ex-hooker started going on about how she was literally attacked & raped by demons... what the frak... why someone didn't just call her bat**** crazy right then and there I don't know.

Because, for some reason bat **** crazy is ok as long as it's religious bat **** crazy.

Note to everyone in the USA: 1st amendment rights allow bat **** crazy people to have their bat **** crazy religous beliefs. It also allows you to say their bat **** crazy beliefs are bat **** crazy! Don't be afraid to point out the obvious!

[Robin]

Okay, I just saw the bit where the ex-hooker started going on about how she was literally attacked & raped by demons... what the frak... why someone didn't just call her bat**** crazy right then and there I don't know.
Same reason fish don't call each other 'wet'.

[joobz]

When Following the Preacher explaining why god is good

Depak-"It is a bit difficult to respond because everything he says is in direct contradiction to what we know about the physical universe that began about 13 billion years ago...."

[JetLeg]

I have problems with access to youtube.

Were there any interesting points raised?

[Safe-Keeper]

Okay, I just saw the bit where the ex-hooker started going on about how she was literally attacked & raped by demons... what the frak... why someone didn't just call her bat**** crazy right then and there I don't know.:looks both sides, hoping truethat is not within hearing range:
Because calling rape victims bat-**** crazy for stating they were raped is exceptionally poor form;)? Look, I realize it's the "they were demons" part that got to you, but if I was sexually assaulted and a believer, I'd probably be tempted to identify my assailants as demon-possessed or demonic, too. If that's the craziest you can fish out of the debate, it must have been quite decent.

What's weirdest for me is that they had a former prostitute in there in the first place. For what reason? Because she stated she was raped by demons? Because prostitutes are viewed as downtrodden or lacking in puritan morals?

If only Dr. Dawkins had been there... :D

[joobz]

Well, It would be weird to have had an atheist on there.
"I don't even think there's a god, and you're asking me if I think the devil exists???? "

[ExMinister]

Okay, I just saw the bit where the ex-hooker started going on about how she was literally attacked & raped by demons... what the frak... why someone didn't just call her bat**** crazy right then and there I don't know.

She said she had the sensation of being held down, terrified, unable to move or see her attackers - that sounded like a classic description of sleep paralysis to me.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I always liked that argument.

God is all good and created things which are all good
???
Now you're evil

[Darth Rotor]

Note to everyone in the USA: 1st amendment rights allow bat **** crazy people to have their bat **** crazy religous beliefs. It also allows you to say their bat **** crazy beliefs are bat **** crazy! Don't be afraid to point out the obvious!
Nice balance, as I see it.

It's a beautiful thing, that First Amendment. Try implementing it in your country.

DR

[kurious_kathy]

I have problems with access to youtube.

Were there any interesting points raised?

Well I believe what Mark Driscol has to say and know it to be the absolute truth and what everyone needs to acknowledge and agree with.

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

As for the others interviewed, my youtube errored so I will try to watch more later and comment then.

[Tricky]

Well I believe what Mark Driscol has to say and know it to be the absolute truth and what everyone needs to acknowledge and agree with.
Truth isn't based on what a single person, or even a group of people believe. It is based on solid, objective, verifiable evidence. If you get to call your beliefs "truth" then every other religion has the same right to call their non-Christian beliefs "truth".

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.
It doesn't sound to me like you were ever very open-minded, but it appears that the tiny little window to any new thought in your brain is closing tightly and being nailed shut. And you consider this good. I pity you.

[fagin]

Well I believe what Mark Driscol has to say and know it to be the absolute truth and what everyone needs to acknowledge and agree with.

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

As for the others interviewed, my youtube errored so I will try to watch more later and comment then.

Okay Okay, I'm convinced. No more please.

[kurious_kathy]

Truth isn't based on what a single person, or even a group of people believe. It is based on solid, objective, verifiable evidence. If you get to call your beliefs "truth" then every other religion has the same right to call their non-Christian beliefs "truth".


It doesn't sound to me like you were ever very open-minded, but it appears that the tiny little window to any new thought in your brain is closing tightly and being nailed shut. And you consider this good. I pity you.
Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind?? Jesus is the only way to know God and most all the other stuff I use to believe he changed as now I have the turht of Gods word in me. If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.

[fagin]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind?? Jesus is the only way to know God and most all the other stuff I use to believe he changed as now I have the turht of Gods word in me. If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.

I said please.
ps what's a turht?

[paximperium]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind?? Jesus is the only way to know God and most all the other stuff I use to believe he changed as now I have the turht of Gods word in me. If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.
Well, I don't pity you. If it makes you happy, I just feel disgust and the mindlessless of your nonsense.

[paximperium]

I said please.
ps what's a turht?
KK has no mercy.

[Lonewulf]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind??

Normally this would be a strawman, but yes, that's actually exactly what we pity you for. That you "know" it's all "The Truth" without the possibility of doubt in your mind.

It's sad.

[fagin]

Enough to make me pray for mercy. And the meaning of turht.

[Damien Evans]

When Following the Preacher explaining why god is good

Depak-"It is a bit difficult to respond because everything he says is in direct contradiction to what we know about the physical universe that began about 13 billion years ago...."

For once Depak is right...


Stopped clock and all that I suppose.

[joobz]

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

Yes, becuase Burning books is a clear sign of rational thought.

[joobz]

as now I have the turht ...
there's a cream for that.

[godless dave]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind??

Yes.

[Ysidro]

Nice balance, as I see it.

It's a beautiful thing, that First Amendment. Try implementing it in your country.

DR

Well they wrote it down in the Bill of Rights! You dont' expect anyone to actually put it into practice, do you! That would be madness! Madness I tell you! :eye-poppi

[JetLeg]

I think that KK should have thread that are dedicated just to her. This way every thread would not turn to a discussion with KK.

[Tricky]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind??
Yes. Exactly. If you don't have a doubt in your mind, it means that your mind isn't working. You are incapable of considering something different. And yes, I find that pitiable. But I wish the best for you (it's the atheist equivalent of a prayer) and truly hope that you will some day recover.

If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.
Your truly think that nobody's opinion matters but your own? Do you really think so little of humanity that you consider yourself to be the apex of intelligence? Well, I hope you recover from this too.

[supercorgi]

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

You burned the books!? What's wrong with you? Couldn't you have just donated them to a library or nursing home or something? KK is a book burner, just one more reason to dislike her.

[Lonewulf]

You burned the books!? What's wrong with you? Couldn't you have just donated them to a library or nursing home or something? KK is a book burner, just one more reason to dislike her.

What, you mean you didn't burn Ayn Rand books yourself?

Then again, I didn't. I flushed mine down the toilet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Second_That_Emotion_(Futurama)#Cultural_referenc es).

[Moochie]

This is quite possibly the worst "debate" I've ever seen. I can't believe this is serious.

Their panel is an ex-hooker, a complete idiot, Deepak Chopra and an Ex-Minister both of whom are dressed like a Middle-Eastern pimps and wearing sunglasses indoors.

Chopra is actually the closest thing to the voice of reason. There is no scientific, atheist, or rationalist perspective offered.

E5UPW9D26oE

Thanks for the link, EGarrett. I found the program most informative.

As usual, I looked at it from the point of view of the "woo economy." I think the two speakers on the right of the moderator were at least not denying what science has taught us, while the two on the left of the moderator appeared to be out and out fundamentalists, just like our very own KK.

Chopra and the ex-exorcist appear to be hedging their bets -- they won't come right out and say there's no evidence for gods, but want to stay relevant to believers (coz that's where the money is) and nonbelievers (coz that way lies credibility).

Most interesting. Maybe there's hope for the U.S. yet.


M.

[pgwenthold]

If Satan exists, how would you distinguish him from God? I mean, I know if I were the ruler of hell and all that and was trying to get people sent to hell, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God so they would worship me.

Comments are made above about how God is good and whatnot. But to make that determination requires an independent standard of good to compare against.

So where do you get the objective standard of good by which to evaluate God?

[Moochie]

If Satan exists, how would you distinguish him from God? I mean, I know if I were the ruler of hell and all that and was trying to get people sent to hell, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God so they would worship me.

Comments are made above about how God is good and whatnot. But to make that determination requires an independent standard of good to compare against.

So where do you get the objective standard of good by which to evaluate God?


God gives you the numbers with which you win


PoWeRbAlL!


(Apologies to DLGAS)


M.

[MattusMaximus]

Truth isn't based on what a single person, or even a group of people believe. It is based on solid, objective, verifiable evidence. If you get to call your beliefs "truth" then every other religion has the same right to call their non-Christian beliefs "truth".

Which is the great irony of religion: many claim some immutable "Truth" that only they can lay claim to (with "evidence" from their holy texts, I might add), yet these claims contradict one another, leading to an obvious paradox...

... how can multiple religions all lay claim to the "one True path" when they disagree with each other? Answer: they can't.

I can anticipate what folks like KK will likely say, because when I was a kid asking these questions I got the usual "we're right, they're wrong, we're going to heaven, they're going to hell, so get on board with us" nonsense. Which is, of course, nothing more than attempting to scare people into going along with the rest of the herd. It was childish then, and it's childish now.

Even at 15 or 16, I realized the only solution to this paradox that made any sense to me then (and still does)...

They're all wrong. They're all just making it up. Rather than admit that they don't really know (which frightens them to no end), they'd just as soon make up fairy-tales, claim "ultimate Truth", and use all these smoke & mirrors as a cover for their own ignorance, fear, and inadequacy.

[MattusMaximus]

I think Sam Harris said it best... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjhbccXIp4c

KK, may Elvis be with you.

[Tricky]

They're all wrong. They're all just making it up. Rather than admit that they don't really know (which frightens them to no end), they'd just as soon make up fairy-tales, claim "ultimate Truth", and use all these smoke & mirrors as a cover for their own ignorance, fear, and inadequacy.
Mostly they're not making it up. Mostly they're believing what they've been told by somebody they trust. Their minds aren't flexible enough to come up with their own ideas. But you're right that fear is a big part of it. The whole concept of "I don't know" is terrifying to them. It is much better to blindly accept something... anything... than to not "know".

And here is where they differ from scientists and critical thinkers. To a critical thinker, the most wonderful phrase in the world is "we don't know". To them, it means there are new paths to be explored, new ideas to try out, new experiments to be done. They don't face ignorance with denial. They challenge ignorance with the determination to beat it by learning all they can. The excitement in such a quest is one of the greatest joys of life.

The Kathys of the world will never know that joy. And for that, I pity them.

[joobz]

The Kathys of the world will never know that joy. And for that, I pity them.
Today, my grad student gave me microscope images of polymer films on glass. They were of the most striking bifurcating crystalline structure. I started smiling. He was shocked and didn't know why.

He asked, "What does this mean for my project?"
"I don't know." I started laughing.

At that point, we sat down and considered what it meant, what we can do, what we study next. It was a fun time simply hypothesizing what's next and developing experiments to test it. I don't know is so much fun.

[EGarrett]

Comments are made above about how God is good and whatnot. But to make that determination requires an independent standard of good to compare against.That's why God is the perfect circle. :)

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, if you define morality and validity of a supreme being by the actions of their more high-profile followers, then I hate to say it, KK, but Satan's followers are far more moral than those of the Judeo-Christian god.

Let's see here - Christianity gave us the Crusades, hucksters like Popoff and Tilton, adulterers like Swaggart and Bakker, crooked and corrupt windbags like Pat Robertson, and a host of atrocities throughout the ages.

Satanism gave us uh...Anton LaVey - who as far as I know had zero criminal record and was only guilty of being a rather touched and kooky individual. It is important to note that continued membership in the Church of Satan is contingent upon the person staying completely within the law. If a member is convicted of any crime, they are kicked out of the church. Compare this to the Roman Catholic church who has continued to cover up and excuse acts of pederasty by its clergy.

Based on that observation, I'd much rather have a Church of Satan on every corner than the bastion of self-righteous pompous hypocrisy that is the Southern Baptist Church.

GLOOOORY!

[kurious_kathy]

Yes, becuase Burning books is a clear sign of rational thought.
Well we live in the mountains where we do burn piles quite regularly for fire safety, so it was just as easy to burn it as to throw it in the garbage.

[Hokulele]

Well we live in the mountains where we do burn piles quite regularly for fire safety, so it was just as easy to burn it as to throw it in the garbage.


Because that is just so much more rational and open-minded than reading and challenging the ideas within. :rolleyes:

[kurious_kathy]

Well, if you define morality and validity of a supreme being by the actions of their more high-profile followers, then I hate to say it, KK, but Satan's followers are far more moral than those of the Judeo-Christian god.

Let's see here - Christianity gave us the Crusades, hucksters like Popoff and Tilton, adulterers like Swaggart and Bakker, crooked and corrupt windbags like Pat Robertson, and a host of atrocities throughout the ages.

Satanism gave us uh...Anton LaVey - who as far as I know had zero criminal record and was only guilty of being a rather touched and kooky individual. It is important to note that continued membership in the Church of Satan is contingent upon the person staying completely within the law. If a member is convicted of any crime, they are kicked out of the church. Compare this to the Roman Catholic church who has continued to cover up and excuse acts of pederasty by its clergy.

Based on that observation, I'd much rather have a Church of Satan on every corner than the bastion of self-righteous pompous hypocrisy that is the Southern Baptist Church.

GLOOOORY!
I never said what the Catholic church believes is right now have I? There are way too many false manmade religions and false prophets in our world today but people who know Jesus are not falling for so many phonies who teach heresy. The Holy Spirit once indwelling a person does in fact lead us into all truth which is found in the Word of God. I am truly sorry there have been way too many phonies out there but that does not mean there aren't people who truly love and know God that choose to overcome evil by doing good. I pray the Lord will bring some true Christians into your path so you can see there is a difference!

[kurious_kathy]

Because that is just so much more rational and open-minded than reading and challenging the ideas within. :rolleyes:
Depak Chopra is a false teacher so why once I know that would I even want to read his bad theories? That's all it is something that may sound good to some but full of lies that deceive many. I did at one time read his stuff, but once you know it's bad why would you ever want to read it again?

[Flo]

I pray the Lord will bring some true Christians into your path so you can see there is a difference!

What a good idea, it would make a nice change from you ... :D

[Hokulele]

I am truly sorry there have been way too many phonies out there but that does not mean there aren't people who truly love and know God that choose to overcome evil by doing good.


Let me know when you meet one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4497292#post4497292

(Removed a rant. Got my threads confused. My apologies.)

[kurious_kathy]

Today, my grad student gave me microscope images of polymer films on glass. They were of the most striking bifurcating crystalline structure. I started smiling. He was shocked and didn't know why.

He asked, "What does this mean for my project?"
"I don't know." I started laughing.

At that point, we sat down and considered what it meant, what we can do, what we study next. It was a fun time simply hypothesizing what's next and developing experiments to test it. I don't know is so much fun.
I still have many questions I ask each day and make many new discoveries. Why would you think just because I am bold in my faith I am not inquisitive?

[kurious_kathy]

Let me know when you meet one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4497292#post4497292




What the heck? Did you even look at the links I posted? Read any of the text I wrote? Where on earth did I mention Deepak (The Moron) Chopra? Do you think people of Indian descent are interchangeable? The Borg?

V.S. Ramachandran.

http://cbc.ucsd.edu/ramabio.html
I was commenting on another person making a statement on why I burned his book on this post and then you made a comment? Perhaps we got our wires crossed because I did not see the link. I took it as you put me down for burning Depak's book. Sorry if I wasn't following you well but it looked like you commented to my comment about that. Why don't we leave the other threads alone and I'll get back to you comment on that one. When people try to blend thread topics it does get a bit messy don't you think?

[Hokulele]

I was commenting on another person making a statement on why I burned his book on this post and then you made a comment? Perhaps we got our wires crossed because I did not see the link. I took it as you put me down for burning Depak's book. Sorry if I wasn't following you well but it looked like you commented to my comment about that. Why don't we leave the other threads alone and I'll get back to you comment on that one. When people try to blend thread topics it does get a bit messy don't you think?


Yep, I got my threads crossed and apologized for the mistaken rant (my post has been edited).

My bad.

[Tricky]

I pray the Lord will bring some true Christians into your path so you can see there is a difference!
Are you an example of a "true Christian"?

[paximperium]

I still have many questions I ask each day and make many new discoveries. Why would you think just because I am bold in my faith I am not inquisitive?
Because faith makes people stupid. Faith makes you stop looking. Faith makes you believe you have answers you don't have.

You are an example of someone without one ounce of inquisiveness, just closed minded faith. A book burner, a liar and someone who claims some "truth" without one bit of intelligence behind that claim.

[Eddie Dane]

You burned the books!? What's wrong with you? Couldn't you have just donated them to a library or nursing home or something? KK is a book burner, just one more reason to dislike her.

When I have parties at my house, my friends look through my bookcase. I also enjoy looking at peoples book collections to see if they have something interesting and to learn about their interests.

One fine day I decided that for the sake of public relations I should get rid of my collection of woo. So it was bye bye to Deepak and creative visualisation and a whole bunch of other crap that was just standing there and making me look like an idiot.

So, after harvesting a box full of woo, what to do with it?
I remembered that in my days of woo, I enjoyed rummaging through the second hand occult books at the store. There was that extra special feeling of a book "coming to you" when it was second hand. And then I realised that I didn't want inflict all this deceitful, time-wasting bull crap on some impressionable teenager. I don't want to be responsible for someone doing visualisation exercises before an exam, instead of actually reading the frigging schoolbooks.

So in the paper recycle bin it went.

With any luck some fat bloke is now wiping his butt with Shati Gawain and practical magyck. What could be more appropriate?

[joobz]

I still have many questions I ask each day and make many new discoveries. Why would you think just because I am bold in my faith I am not inquisitive?Well, it's because you speak with assurity about things you can't possibly know. You seem to have no problem insert the "God" answer as though that explains things. It limits discovery and learning.
I mean, what are your answers to the following questions:
So what are your answers to the questions:
1. What would it mean if we discovered alien life?
2. What did the very first protolife forms look like?
3. How can we combat bacterial evolution?
4. Why do childhood diseases exist?
5. If evolution isn't true, why does all the data make it look like it is?

Does god factor into your answers of these questions? How sure are you of your answers once you allow god as part of it?

[Lonewulf]

You know, given the book that Kathy decided to burn, I'm not sure I can point my finger at her for it.

If she burned Harry Potter or Fahrenheit 451, though, I'd have a case. Not so sure about Twilight. ;)

[Lonewulf]

I don't want to be responsible for someone doing visualisation exercises before an exam, instead of actually reading the frigging schoolbooks.

You know, I'm not sure how "visualization exercises" are supposed to work according to the author that you're talking about, but low levels of "visualization" actually seem helpful for some things. For instance, when I'm fencing, I often forget what I look like while I'm fighting; I square up, making myself an easier target, I cross my legs, making it easy for someone to push on me and make me trip over myself, etc. Through "visualization", I can sort of see how I look like while feeling it...

But of course, this is totally different than what you're talking about. For history, I can see how visualization could help -- trying to imagine a city under discussion, of course. But I'm still sure that this isn't what you're talking about.

[joobz]

Well we live in the mountains where we do burn piles quite regularly for fire safety, so it was just as easy to burn it as to throw it in the garbage.
The avilability of fire doesn't make the practice of book burning any more justifiable.

I hold equal amounts of disdain for an atheist who would burn the bible as I would a republican who would burn the communist manifesto. The words on the page are ideas. Burning books isn't a demonstration of hatred for the ideas, it is an indication of fear for the ideas. Fear that the words on the page may actually hold some truth for you and that you must destroy it before it takes hold.

[Lonewulf]

The avilability of fire doesn't make the practice of book burning any more justifiable.

I hold equal amounts of disdain for an atheist who would burn the bible as I would a republican who would burn the communist manifesto. The words on the page are ideas. Burning books isn't a demonstration of hatred for the ideas, it is an indication of fear for the ideas. Fear that the words on the page may actually hold some truth for you and that you must destroy it before it takes hold.

Hm... good way of putting it, actually.

I think you just changed my stance on the topic. Good show. :)

[joobz]

You know, given the book that Kathy decided to burn, I'm not sure I can point my finger at her for it.

If she burned Harry Potter or Fahrenheit 451, though, I'd have a case. Not so sure about Twilight. ;)


When they burned Atlas Shrugged,
I remained silent;
I was not a douchebag objectivist.
Then they Burned up Joyce's Ulysses,
I remained silent;
I was not a douchebag Lit major.
Then they burned The DaVinci Code,
I did not speak out;
It totally Sucked and was written for douchebags.
Then they burned Dianetics,
I did not speak out;
I was not a douchbag rich actor.
When they burned the Watchmen,
I was like, "Hey What the EFF!!! That book's awesome!!!"
And there was no one left to speak out for me,
because they were all pissed that I kept calling them douchebags.

[Lonewulf]

...Can I nominate two people in one day?

[Eddie Dane]

You know, I'm not sure how "visualization exercises" are supposed to work according to the author that you're talking about, but low levels of "visualization" actually seem helpful for some things. For instance, when I'm fencing, I often forget what I look like while I'm fighting; I square up, making myself an easier target, I cross my legs, making it easy for someone to push on me and make me trip over myself, etc. Through "visualization", I can sort of see how I look like while feeling it...

But of course, this is totally different than what you're talking about. For history, I can see how visualization could help -- trying to imagine a city under discussion, of course. But I'm still sure that this isn't what you're talking about.

I was talking about the idea that if you visualise something you want really vividly and very often, you tell the universe what you want and it will come to pass.

If that actually worked, I'd be typing this with Scarlett Johansson sitting on my face.

[Jorghnassen]

Why is it a Nightline debate? Of course Satan exists, he plays for the Pittsburgh Penguins (http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/666).

[supercorgi]

The avilability of fire doesn't make the practice of book burning any more justifiable.

I hold equal amounts of disdain for an atheist who would burn the bible as I would a republican who would burn the communist manifesto. The words on the page are ideas. Burning books isn't a demonstration of hatred for the ideas, it is an indication of fear for the ideas. Fear that the words on the page may actually hold some truth for you and that you must destroy it before it takes hold.

Thank you for stating the reasons for my disdain of this practice better than I possibly could! :) Books are the home of ideas, you may disagree with ideas, but trying to stamp them out makes the world a poorer place.

[Thanz]

I never said what the Catholic church believes is right now have I? There are way too many false manmade religions and false prophets in our world today but people who know Jesus are not falling for so many phonies who teach heresy.
I was raised Roman Catholic and am now a practicing Anglican. In your opinion, am I following a false manmade religion, falling for phonies who teach heresy?

[MattusMaximus]

I never said what the Catholic church believes is right now have I?

Nice one. The "Catholics aren't real Christians" argument :rolleyes:

There are way too many false manmade religions and false prophets in our world today but people who know Jesus are not falling for so many phonies who teach heresy.

Um, yeah. I'm sure that by now someone has pointed out that your religion is also man-made - they all are, KK.

The Holy Spirit once indwelling a person does in fact lead us into all truth which is found in the Word of God. I am truly sorry there have been way too many phonies out there but that does not mean there aren't people who truly love and know God that choose to overcome evil by doing good.

Curious how your path is the "True" one, and all others are "phonies" - exactly the kind of argument which got me to questioning religion in the first place.

I pray the Lord will bring some true Christians into your path so you can see there is a difference!

My wife is a Christian, KK. And, despite my open atheism & skepticism of religion, I am proud to know her, love her, and be in her life. The same goes for her regarding me.

And, for me, that's heaven :D

[Cainkane1]

Laveyan Satanists say satan doesn't exist. If you are a Catholic, a fundy xcian, muslim than Satan is very real. If you are a atheist then belief in satan is hogwash.

[MattusMaximus]

Good point. To an atheist, neither Satan or God is real - you might as well start talking to us about leprechauns.

[AkuManiMani]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind?? Jesus is the only way to know God and most all the other stuff I use to believe he changed as now I have the turht of Gods word in me. If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.

Heh... "kurious_kathy". If you were intentionally being ironic I'd give you kudos. Judging from your posting history tho, I'd have to conclude that its completely unintentional and the joke is on you.

You're anything but curious; your mind is hermetically sealed. It's obvious that you prefer false certainty over gaining actual knowledge or truth. You're doing yourself an great disservice.

[kurious_kathy]

What a good idea, it would make a nice change from you ... :D
I meant face to face! The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives. The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled. Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!

[Hokulele]

Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!


Good idea.

[pgwenthold]

I meant face to face! The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives. The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled. Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!

The thing I've never understood about you Kathy is that you gleefully admit that you weren't on board until "God opened your eyes" or "touched your heart" or other such cliches. IOW, you admit that it took intervention from GOD to convince you of the truth of the Gospel. So why do you think you can do it to us on your own?

You, more than anyone else, should realize that you are wasting your time preaching to us. What you should be spending your time doing is praying to your God to get him to "open our eyes" in the same way he opened yours. I think it's a good idea. Why don't you leave here, go to a private place, and pray for God to open our eyes that we can see as you can. You are wasting your time here.

[Ducky]

I just watched the videos of this debate and am now considering drinking bleach to cleanse the stupid from my brain.

That was like watching a pack of drunk monkeys attempt to build a house by throwing poop at each other.



ETA:

Stop feeding kurious_kathy's self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether she's a troll or actually believes it, the function of reactions to her is the same: Paying attention to her feeds her need to feel superior.

[MattusMaximus]

I meant face to face! The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives. The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled. Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!

Oh please... don't go... :rolleyes:

[joobz]

I just watched the videos of this debate and am now considering drinking bleach to cleanse the stupid from my brain.
UNfortunately, bleach precipitates the stupid into tiny stupid aggregates.

[Darth Rotor]

Are you an example of a "true Christian"?
If she is, I am buying my Kilt from a different catalogue.

[Darth Rotor]

I meant face to face! The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives. The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled.
Not quite. Not enough believers are walking the walk.

Hear a lot of talking the talk, however ...





By the way, I can't emphasize strongly enough how much I wish the part I bolded and underlined were corrected. When the day to day life of a Christian is a compelling example of selflessness and sacrifice, the Word is spread without a word spoken. My own mentor is one such example. His example is, I fear, all too rare.

Kathy, think about that before you post here again. Is your talking the talk in any way, shape, or form as effective as walking the walk?

DR

[Moochie]

Oh deary, deary me! Sweetheart, KK, please don't go, yet. I implore you. Even as I type this humble missive for you we, the unfaithful, are gathering together the forces of evil with which to reclaim your mortal bits and pieces from the clutches of that irascible God fellow thingy, and we shall not be denied!

Once we have cleansed you of your silly little delusions, we will dress you in a diaper and offer you the breast that contains the milk of human kindness.

How's them apples, darlin'?


M.

[supercorgi]

Stop feeding kurious_kathy's self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether she's a troll or actually believes it, the function of reactions to her is the same: Paying attention to her feeds her need to feel superior.

Good advice Ducky. I'll try to do this. It's sometimes so hard when she says mental illness is because of demons. As someone who has had to deal with life-long depression, sometimes it's hard to not respond. Believe me, a lot of mental illness is biochemical -- my grandfather commited suicide, my father was chronically depressed, and I struggle against this every day. To hear KK, say that my problems are due to demons is infuriating. Sometimes it's hard to hold back. I'll try.

[Ducky]

Good advice Ducky. I'll try to do this. It's sometimes so hard when she says mental illness is because of demons. As someone who has had to deal with life-long depression, sometimes it's hard to not respond. Believe me, a lot of mental illness is biochemical -- my grandfather commited suicide, my father was chronically depressed, and I struggle against this every day. To hear KK, say that my problems are due to demons is infuriating. Sometimes it's hard to hold back. I'll try.

There's suicide in my family as well. Believers don't even buy kathy's crap. It is either specifically designed to troll this forum as a joke and rile you up, or it is specifically designed to troll this forum seriously and rile you up but either way this person is not interested in how you actually feel. It is intended to feel superior to us.

What amazes me is that anyone here does not simply react to this woman's posts as though she accused us of having a tail and horns. It's insane, worthless and it is beneath believer and nonbeliever alike to even bother acknowledging it.

There's a difference of beliefs, and then there's ******* crazy. It is ******* crazy to take anything this woman says seriously.

[Foster Zygote]

"There ain't no devil, that's just God when he's drunk."

[kurious_kathy]

Good advice Ducky. I'll try to do this. It's sometimes so hard when she says mental illness is because of demons. As someone who has had to deal with life-long depression, sometimes it's hard to not respond. Believe me, a lot of mental illness is biochemical -- my grandfather commited suicide, my father was chronically depressed, and I struggle against this every day. To hear KK, say that my problems are due to demons is infuriating. Sometimes it's hard to hold back. I'll try.

Yes I have some very strong beliefs on this subject of mental illness. I know as a Christian we have three main enemies, 1.the world, 2.the flesh,and 3.the devil. These are the things everyone battles with but Christians are the ones that see we are in a spiritual battle in this world because the Lord reveals it to us. If you want to argue with him go ahead but I strongly advise against arguing with the creator of the heavens and earth. He's always right! The only way anyone wins this spiritual battle is through Christ who defeats the enemies of our souls. In Christ We have victory over evil and he will fight our battles for us. "I can do all things through Christ!" I hope you take this one to heart because I am telling you the truth and it's the truth that makes us free. Why do you think Christians say "Jesus Saves?"

[kurious_kathy]

I was raised Roman Catholic and am now a practicing Anglican. In your opinion, am I following a false manmade religion, falling for phonies who teach heresy?
I am not sure what anglicans are taught.
Do you believe the sacraments save you?
Do you have to confess to a preist??
Do you pray to anyone other than God???
Do you believe it is anything other than by God's grace we are saved????

[joobz]

Yes I have some very strong beliefs on this subject of mental illness. I know as a Christian we have three main enemies, 1.the world, 2.the flesh,and 3.the devil.
there are three main enemies to a smoker's health. 1.) COPD, 2.) nicotine addiction and 3.) cancer. But all of which are the result of smoking. Hence, we state that people shouldn't smoke.

According to the bible 1.) the world, 2.) the Flesh and 3. The devil are all created by god. This would make god the real enemy.

These are the things everyone battles with but Christians are the ones that see we are in a spiritual battle in this world because the Lord reveals it to us. If you want to argue with him go ahead but I strongly advise against arguing with the creator of the heavens and earth. He's always right! The only way anyone wins this spiritual battle is through Christ who defeats the enemies of our souls. In Christ We have victory over evil and he will fight our battles for us. "I can do all things through Christ!" I hope you take this one to heart because I am telling you the truth and it's the truth that makes us free. Why do you think Christians say "Jesus Saves?"
WHy do you think Muslims say, "There is no god but allah and mohomed is his prophet?"

[six7s]

Why do you think Christians say "Jesus Saves?"Because saying 'My faith is based on wishful thinking and despair bred of willful ignorance' risks making them think

[Ralph]

There's suicide in my family as well. Believers don't even buy kathy's crap. It is either specifically designed to troll this forum as a joke and rile you up, or it is specifically designed to troll this forum seriously and rile you up but either way this person is not interested in how you actually feel. It is intended to feel superior to us.

What amazes me is that anyone here does not simply react to this woman's posts as though she accused us of having a tail and horns. It's insane, worthless and it is beneath believer and nonbeliever alike to even bother acknowledging it.

There's a difference of beliefs, and then there's ******* crazy. It is ******* crazy to take anything this woman says seriously.


I used to post on Rapture Ready.

It wasn't long before I realized I may as well be having a discussion with my dog.

[six7s]

I used to post on Rapture Ready.

It wasn't long before I realized I may as well be having a discussion with my dog.http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/gio/CS99I/figures/DogInternet_075.gif

:)

[Lucian]

I used to post on Rapture Ready.

It wasn't long before I realized I may as well be having a discussion with my dog.

Comparing talking to a dog to trying to have meaningful communication on Rapture Ready is a horrific insult to dogs. First of all, you can tell by the way they tilt their heads and gaze earnestly at you that dogs are really trying to understand what you're saying. And obviously, dogs are much more kindhearted and forgiving.

[Tricky]

Comparing talking to a dog to trying to have meaningful communication on Rapture Ready is a horrific insult to dogs. First of all, you can tell by the way they tilt their heads and gaze earnestly at you that dogs are really trying to understand what you're saying. And obviously, dogs are much more kindhearted and forgiving.
Also, they don't try to convince you that you should be a dog, nor do they long for the day when everybody but dogs goes to hell.

[six7s]

Time for an oldie?

Why Beer is Better than God

They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves
You can prove if you have a Beer
No one will kill you for not buying Beer
No one has ever been burned at the stake, hanged or tortured for favouring a particular brand of Beer
Beer has never caused a major war
There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you
You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second beer
Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex
When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away
If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop

[Hokulele]

No one has ever been burned at the stake, hanged or tortured for favouring a particular brand of Beer



Unless that brand is Steinlager.

:duck:

[six7s]

Unless that brand is Steinlager.

:duck:Just say NO (video: David & Goliath) (http://videolog.uol.com.br/video.php?id=391717)

:cool:

[Hokulele]

Steingrenade, ho!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Their panel is an ex-hooker, a complete idiot, Deepak Chopra and an Ex-Minister both of whom are dressed like a Middle-Eastern pimps and wearing sunglasses indoors.



These two are not mutually exclusive. :D Some of the others also might be redundant.

You know you are in big, big trouble when you say the phrase "a complete idiot and Deepak Chopra". :D

[six7s]

You know you are in big, big trouble when you say the phrase "a complete idiot and Deepak Chopra". :D

Deepak Chopra is NOT a complete idiot!

He can tie his own shoelaces :D

[Cavemonster]

Time for an oldie?

Why Beer is Better than God
Beer has never caused a major war



Drunk Man: Oh yeah? You think yer better than me Mr. Fancy pants, "I'm the Archduke Ferdinand"? How about you come over here so I can... so I can kick yer assssssssssss.

[supercorgi]

Yes I have some very strong beliefs on this subject of mental illness. I know as a Christian we have three main enemies, 1.the world, 2.the flesh,and 3.the devil. These are the things everyone battles with but Christians are the ones that see we are in a spiritual battle in this world because the Lord reveals it to us. If you want to argue with him go ahead but I strongly advise against arguing with the creator of the heavens and earth. He's always right! The only way anyone wins this spiritual battle is through Christ who defeats the enemies of our souls. In Christ We have victory over evil and he will fight our battles for us. "I can do all things through Christ!" I hope you take this one to heart because I am telling you the truth and it's the truth that makes us free. Why do you think Christians say "Jesus Saves?"

Kathy, sometimes I feel sorry for you because it seems that you can't think for yourself. But when you say things like this, I truly despise you. To just ascribe my suffering and my Dad's suffering as a spiritual battle is repugnant.

When I was a little girl, I used to pray to god to kill me in my sleep --he didn't respond. Why didn't a loving god take me pain away? Why didn't he take my suffering away? I attened church, I sang in the choir, I prayed for relatives that I didn't even know. I was just a little girl. I've struggled with this all my life. It wasn't until I got on the appropriate medication that I could think clearly.

Why didn't 't your loving god take my pain away (which modern medicine has relieved)? Why doesn't your god take your back pain away? Why doesn't he prevent earthquakes, , hurricanes that destroyed New Oleans, tidal waves which killed thousands of innocent people. Where is your god? Your god seems very inattentive. There is no god, this are no demons, there is no devil. Bad things happen, we can be compassionate by helping them to the best of our ability. People who say "I'll pray for you" are taking the easy way out. They don't do anything. What are you doing, besides coming here and bleathing your judgemental religion to us?

Go away, preach to someone else, because we find your version of Christianity repugnant. It's not loving, it's not accepting, and it not forgiving. Original sin is BS. No one should be held to blame for what our ancestors did. That is just BS. I pity you for thinking people are inherently evil, that the world is bad, and that you eagerly anticipate the end of the world and the suffering of so many people. Your religion and your view on mental illness is not just ignorant, it's repugnant. I'm not beset by demons, I'm not with struggle with Satan. My brain chemistry is messed up, and my upbringing reinforced it. I don't know it, but I guess that you're upbringing lead you to your acceptance of the unthinking type of religion.

I encourage you to join the real world and accept that world is billions of years old and amazingly wonderful. Look at life, look at animals, look at trees, they all beautifully adapted to their environment. It's amazing and it doesn't require god.

[Steelmage]

It's sometimes so hard when she says mental illness is because of demons.
Because the real cause of mental illness is lack of vitamins according to Dr. Tom Cruise. ;)

Why do you think Christians say "Jesus Saves?"
Because he always backs up his hard drive?


Why Beer is Better than God

*They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves
In this case, minors except the Beer.

*No one will kill you for not buying Beer
Depends which bar that you go to.

*Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex

Depends on how drunk you are, and in this case it may not matter.

*When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
Again, depends on how drunk you are.

[Flo]

I meant face to face! The world needs to see Jesus in the real world

That would certainly clear a lot of things up. Given the fact that it's a fictional character, I won't hold my breath.

and in his disciples lives.

That would be nice, as long as they don't behave the way you do here ...



The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled.

Yes, indoctrination isn't what it used to be, too many people escape nowadays ...


Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!


Planning to write "Brainwashing the Unbelievers for Dummies" ?

[Thanz]

I am not sure what anglicans are taught.
Here is a basic primer: http://www.stjohnsroslyn.org.nz/guide_to_the_anglican_church.html

So, am I a heretic?

[Lonewulf]

Kathy, seriously, can you please think about your approach for a bit?

All of this forum does not like you. Seriously. They don't like your style, they aren't going to buy into your preaching, and you're not going to make any converts.

Doesn't this say anything to you? In a forum where so many disagree about so many things, almost all of them are united in opinion against you. Surely this says something to you, doesn't it?

[Flo]

Kathy, seriously, can you please think about your approach for a bit?

All of this forum does not like you. Seriously. They don't like your style, they aren't going to buy into your preaching, and you're not going to make any converts.

Doesn't this say anything to you? In a forum where so many disagree about so many things, almost all of them are united in opinion against you. Surely this says something to you, doesn't it?


Yes, that she's a martyr for the cause and that the more she's preaching to us, the more brownie points she's accruing ... :D

[Tricky]

Yes, that she's a martyr for the cause and that the more she's preaching to us, the more brownie points she's accruing ... :D
Plus she gets to go back and tell her congregation how she tried to spread the word of Jesus among the heathen savages and suffered horrible insults for it.

'Course in the old days, you got eaten by a cannibal. Missionary work ain't what it used to be.

[X]

I know as a Christian we have three main enemies; 1. the world, 2. the flesh, and 3. the devil.



Those 3 "enemies" cast a big net.
You're essentially afraid of the whole frickin' world.
Sounds horrible. Why would anyone want to live their life fearing reality, when there is so much incredible stuff to be learned from it?



Kathy, for all your ranting about how you KNOW your religion is the right one, has it ever occurred to you that there are people in other religions who KNOW, equally strongly, that theirs is the right religion?

How do you contend with them? The Muslims, the Sikhs, the Catholics, the Jews, Hindus, and so-on.
How do you deal with the concept that other people think theirs is the only true religion, known to them by divine revelation?



For the record: I don't KNOW that atheism is correct. I just base my views on the evidence I see. Or rather, the utter lack of reliable evidence for any one religion over another, or any sort of god at all.

[pgwenthold]

These are the things everyone battles with but Christians are the ones that see we are in a spiritual battle in this world because the Lord reveals it to us.

Once again, Kathy, you make an appeal to having special insight from God.

If God can "reveal it" to you, why doesn't he reveal it to us? More to the point, why are we to be blamed if he doesn't?

And if God won't reveal it to us (which he obviously hasn't) then why do you waste your time trying to convince us? As I have said before, shouldn't you spend your time asking your God to provide us with the special revelation that you received? Until he does, you are wasting your time.

This is evident even from your own comments. You cannot convert us - that is up to God.

[kurious_kathy]

Because faith makes people stupid. Faith makes you stop looking. Faith makes you believe you have answers you don't have.

You are an example of someone without one ounce of inquisiveness, just closed minded faith. A book burner, a liar and someone who claims some "truth" without one bit of intelligence behind that claim.
No you are very wrong. Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

[MIKILLINI]

No you are very wrong. Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Why would the son of man have to seek? Didn't his father know already? Doesn't he know everything?

[six7s]

Didn't his father know already? Doesn't he know everything?Yeah... but he's a curmudgeonly, selfish wanker

[Foster Zygote]

Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Faith, which is belief without evidence, can provide emotional benefit, especially when the thing that is believed gives the believer comfort. But the emotional benefits of faith are certainly not unique to Christianity. Adherents of virtually every religious belief system in human history have reported the same feelings of comfort and assurance. You offer your feelings of certainty as evidence of the veracity of your beliefs, yet I hear the same thing from Muslims, Hindus and Scientologists. Your certainty in your beliefs is a consequence of your refusal to entertain uncertainty regarding your beliefs.

Then there's the fact that I, and many others, lack your faith yet still have the strength to go on each day. In fact, for me personally, I'm rather enthusiastic about going on with my life. I lack faith and yet I am happy.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
He isn't seeking very hard. Just imagine how many more people would be saved if Jesus would just make an appearance and demonstrate the truth of Christianity to the world. But instead Jesus confuses the world by offering nothing to verify Christianity beyond what is offered by the other religions you deride as false. How many Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etcetera will be cast into Hell because they chose to believe in the wrong set of evidenced beliefs?

[Ducky]

No you are very wrong. Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

edited. waste of time.

[paximperium]

No you are very wrong. Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."No. Faith gives you false relief and false answers. It leads to you believing you have some answers when you have none. It gives you false relief and false confidence.

Blindly walking forward based solely on faith without any or ignoring evidence is a sure sign that faith robs people of the ability to think and leads to harm.

[Niggle]

No you are very wrong. Faith gives you the strength each day to keep going while at the same time healthier boundaries on what godly living is suppose to be.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

No. YOU are WRONG!! Your sick version of faith nearly drove me to suicide. It was all I deserved as a worthless, sinful wretch, and a female one at that. Better that I remove myself from the world to atone for Eve's sin.

It was only after I turned my back on empty faith that I came to realize that I did, indeed, have something of value to add to this world. So I sought help in science and found medication and counseling that helped me accept myself the way I am and gave me the strength to improve what I could.

And now I am happy with life in general (my own is a little rough right now, but it's fixable). And I don't have to feel guilty about that any more. I've thrown off the suffocating yoke of your religion and am now free to do what I can to try to help others who are worse off than me. I don't HAVE to do anything. But I can. And easing another's suffering spreads more joy than all your empty bleating ever will.

So take your fear and cruelty and hatred somewhere else. Because that's all you're showing us, and we're not buying your lies. You lose.

Goodbye, and good riddance.

[six7s]

... I came to realize that I did, indeed, have something of value to add to this worldKia kaha!

:)

[Hokulele]

And now I am happy with life in general ...


Yay! More skepchicks generally happy with life! Welcome to the club. :)

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy, sometimes I feel sorry for you because it seems that you can't think for yourself. But when you say things like this, I truly despise you. To just ascribe my suffering and my Dad's suffering as a spiritual battle is repugnant.

When I was a little girl, I used to pray to god to kill me in my sleep --he didn't respond. Why didn't a loving god take me pain away? Why didn't he take my suffering away? I attened church, I sang in the choir, I prayed for relatives that I didn't even know. I was just a little girl. I've struggled with this all my life. It wasn't until I got on the appropriate medication that I could think clearly.

Why didn't 't your loving god take my pain away (which modern medicine has relieved)? Why doesn't your god take your back pain away? Why doesn't he prevent earthquakes, , hurricanes that destroyed New Oleans, tidal waves which killed thousands of innocent people. Where is your god? Your god seems very inattentive. There is no god, this are no demons, there is no devil. Bad things happen, we can be compassionate by helping them to the best of our ability. People who say "I'll pray for you" are taking the easy way out. They don't do anything. What are you doing, besides coming here and bleathing your judgemental religion to us?

Go away, preach to someone else, because we find your version of Christianity repugnant. It's not loving, it's not accepting, and it not forgiving. Original sin is BS. No one should be held to blame for what our ancestors did. That is just BS. I pity you for thinking people are inherently evil, that the world is bad, and that you eagerly anticipate the end of the world and the suffering of so many people. Your religion and your view on mental illness is not just ignorant, it's repugnant. I'm not beset by demons, I'm not with struggle with Satan. My brain chemistry is messed up, and my upbringing reinforced it. I don't know it, but I guess that you're upbringing lead you to your acceptance of the unthinking type of religion.

I encourage you to join the real world and accept that world is billions of years old and amazingly wonderful. Look at life, look at animals, look at trees, they all beautifully adapted to their environment. It's amazing and it doesn't require god.

SC, I understand all the why's I still ask plenty myself. But unless you can accept that we are born into a fallen world then you cannot ever get to a place of knowing. I do believe everyhting everyone suffers in this world is because of sin, and not necessarily your own because other people who sin agianst us can and does have an affect on others. As far as I can understand at this point it seems like God is just letting free will and sin run it's course? I believe also that God is hoping many will repent and be saved as this is said in scripture to be the perfect will of God that none shall persih.

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?

[six7s]

...unless you can accept that we are born into a fallen world then you cannot ever get to a place of knowingAnd HOW do you, kurious_kathy, accept that we are born into a fallen world?

You create an intricate fantasy world that so thoroughly obscures and distorts reality that you actually forget that the rest of us can't see, touch, taste, hear or smell your delusions...

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?No

Of course not

God is a myth, remember? You fashioned him in your own image from smoke and twisting, turning, infinitely looping mirrors

[AJM8125]

And HOW do you, kurious_kathy, accept that we are born into a fallen world?

You create an intricate fantasy world that so thoroughly obscures and distorts reality that you actually forget that the rest of us can't see, touch, taste, hear or smell your delusions...

No

Of course not

God is a myth, remember? You fashioned him in your own image from smoke and twisting, turning, infinitely looping mirrors

I'd prefer to be seated in the non-smoking myth section please.

[six7s]

I'd prefer to be seated in the non-smoking myth section please.Certainly, sir

That'll be $175.50 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139065), thanks

Enjoy the view

[Flo]

SC, I understand all the why's I still ask plenty myself. But unless you can accept that we are born into a fallen world then you cannot ever get to a place of knowing. I do believe everyhting everyone suffers in this world is because of sin, and not necessarily your own because other people who sin agianst us can and does have an affect on others. As far as I can understand at this point it seems like God is just letting free will and sin run it's course? I believe also that God is hoping many will repent and be saved as this is said in scripture to be the perfect will of God that none shall persih.

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?


Your "god" doesn't exist and is just a figment of (dirty) humans imagination, made up in order to hide your inner wishes to see everybody cower in fear and loathing, just like you.

[Robin]

If Satan exists, how would you distinguish him from God? I mean, I know if I were the ruler of hell and all that and was trying to get people sent to hell, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God so they would worship me.
Actually, according to Revelations, Jesus Christ is the ruler of Hell, and oversees the eternal torture.

[six7s]

Actually, according to Revelations, Jesus Christ is the ruler of Hell, and oversees the eternal torture.That smacks of nepotism, to me

[Agatha]

I do believe everyhting everyone suffers in this world is because of sin, and not necessarily your own because other people who sin agianst us can and does have an affect on others. As far as I can understand at this point it seems like God is just letting free will and sin run it's course? I believe also that God is hoping many will repent and be saved as this is said in scripture to be the perfect will of God that none shall persih. Childhood cancer is because of sin? Babies starving to death in famine-hit countries is because of sin? Pain and grief and loss and illness and death is because of sin? No. All those things are part of being human. Blaming them on a fairy tale and calling it sin will not ease one jot of someone's suffering. Learning about the world, using science to ease pain, cure illness and to feed the hungry, and using love and compassion (not the hate and fear which you demonstrate) to comfort the grieving, that's what makes a positive difference to the world.

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?
No. But I think that you do. I think that you welcome other people's suffering, and I think that you believe that suffering is "good" as it will lead them into believing in the same god as you.

I feel desperately sorry for you. You are locked in an abusive relationship as surely as any battered spouse, but in your case, the abuser is your god, keeping you in fear and suffering and making you believe that he's doing it because he loves you.

[pgwenthold]

That smacks of nepotism, to me

It's not nepotism, it's a protection racket.

Pay the Don protection money, and if you don't, he sends Guido over to burn down your business.

[AkuManiMani]

Kathy, seriously, can you please think about your approach for a bit?

Kurious_Kathy has not yet exhibited the capacity to think critically. Best I can tell, shes just a mindless proselytizer.

[TimCallahan]

Pity me for what? Knowing it's all the truth without a doubt in my mind?? Jesus is the only way to know God and most all the other stuff I use to believe he changed as now I have the turht of Gods word in me. If I believe Gods word then it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of me because I know him through his word.

Okay, the obvious question is: How do you know this is the word of God? One would assume that might involve it being true, among other things. Leaving out the internal contradictions ofthe New Testament, historical inaccuracies found particularly in Acts and the often word-for-word quoting of miracle stories from the Septuagint; lets just deal with demons and Satan.

I am assuming that part of the truth you believe in is the description of spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6:10 - 16. Let us just consider verses 11 and 12 for a start:

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So, do you believe that you are actually day-to-day locked in spiritual warfare with demons? Do you believe that the "world rulers of this present darkness" refers to actual national leaders of today, and, if so, which ones? Finally, if you do believe at least in the gist of the verses above, what is your evidence of spiritual warfare and demonic atttack? Hopefully, it's something better that the testemony of Nightline's brain-fried ex-hooker. (Actually, given her streaked, peroxided hair and rather sexy affect, I wonder how much "ex" she really is.)

[Ron_Tomkins]

Hi guys

Mr Satan is willing to provide a written and signed document stating that he exists. However he will not engage in any dialogues due to his very tight schedule

Ron T.
Hades & Hades CO

[supercorgi]

No. YOU are WRONG!! Your sick version of faith nearly drove me to suicide. It was all I deserved as a worthless, sinful wretch, and a female one at that. Better that I remove myself from the world to atone for Eve's sin.

It was only after I turned my back on empty faith that I came to realize that I did, indeed, have something of value to add to this world. So I sought help in science and found medication and counseling that helped me accept myself the way I am and gave me the strength to improve what I could.

And now I am happy with life in general (my own is a little rough right now, but it's fixable). And I don't have to feel guilty about that any more. I've thrown off the suffocating yoke of your religion and am now free to do what I can to try to help others who are worse off than me. I don't HAVE to do anything. But I can. And easing another's suffering spreads more joy than all your empty bleating ever will.

So take your fear and cruelty and hatred somewhere else. Because that's all you're showing us, and we're not buying your lies. You lose.

Goodbye, and good riddance.

Congratulations for you Niggle! I am so glad that you've been able to get help and see that the teachings of religions are often so harmful. My problems weren't due to religion (I was raised a Congregationalist in a pretty laid back church). But the health we can find by facing our problems realistically, getting help from other people, and using the tools that science has given us, can help tremendously.

I'm literally biting my lips to keep from responding to KK's drivel but I'm going to try my best to do as Ducky suggested. I'll respond to other people but not to her. She can go pound sand for all I'm concerned.

[Steelmage]

Satan a being that leads people astray.

Kurious_katy a being that leads people astray from reason.

Therefore Kurious_katy is Satan. ;)

Kurious_katy exists.
Therefore Satan exists. ;)

Logic paid for by the logical reasoning of Fundy Christians.




















Oh wait on second though, take that back....

Satan a being that leads people astray using reason.

Kurious_katy a being that leads people astray from reason.

Therefore Kurious_katy cannot be Satan.


Kurious_katy exists.
Since Kurious_katy is not Satan.
Therefore Satan does not exist.

Logic paid for by the logical reasoning of Fundy Christians.

[Niggle]

Kia kaha!

:)

I had to Google this to find out what it means. Thank you! I love the sentiment, and I thank you for your support.

[Moochie]

Kia kaha!

:)


Is that some sort of New Age Kumbaya?


M.

[Moochie]

Yay! More skepchicks generally happy with life! Welcome to the club. :)

Yep, 'tis a joy to behold. :)

Incidentally, it's occurred to me that had the interrogators of those terrorists used KK instead of water-boarding...


M.

[Beerina]

The devil is old news ever since the Vatican announced the discovery of the Super-Devil. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3a73d8811b/the-super-devil)


As seen here, the Super Devil is at least six inches taller, he has a flying motorcycle, and a jar of marmalade that we believe forces you to commit adultery.
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=139&pictureid=849 http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=139&pictureid=943

[paximperium]

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?
According to you; YES.

Your god wants everyone to suffer so that they will grovel and become brainless slaves or be tortured for eternity. Your god is evil.

[JetLeg]

SC, I understand all the why's I still ask plenty myself. But unless you can accept that we are born into a fallen world then you cannot ever get to a place of knowing. I do believe everyhting everyone suffers in this world is because of sin, and not necessarily your own because other people who sin agianst us can and does have an affect on others. As far as I can understand at this point it seems like God is just letting free will and sin run it's course? I believe also that God is hoping many will repent and be saved as this is said in scripture to be the perfect will of God that none shall persih.

Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?

Did you notice that? KK DOES ask herself questions.

[paximperium]

Did you notice that? KK DOES ask herself questions.
And she lies to herself just like she does to others.

[kurious_kathy]

And HOW do you, kurious_kathy, accept that we are born into a fallen world?

You create an intricate fantasy world that so thoroughly obscures and distorts reality that you actually forget that the rest of us can't see, touch, taste, hear or smell your delusions...

No

Of course not

God is a myth, remember? You fashioned him in your own image from smoke and twisting, turning, infinitely looping mirrors
No siz7's God is certainly no myth and one day you will have to stand before him and give an answer to why you denied his gift of grace. Jesus died to save us all!

And how I know sin is real is because I see where sin led me before Christ. He saved me from a fate worse than the first death. All I deserve is hell but somehow in the midst of my pain 4+ years ago Jesus intervened in my life , showed me mercy, and turned my life back around to follow him and his truth. He is the only way anyone can come to God!

[Ducky]

No siz7's God is certainly no myth and one day you will have to stand before him and give an answer to why you denied his gift of grace. Jesus died to save us all!

And how I know sin is real is because I see where sin led me before Christ. He saved me from a fate worse than the first death. All I deserve is hell but somehow in the midst of my pain 4+ years ago Jesus intervened in my life , showed me mercy, and turned my life back around to follow him and his truth. He is the only way anyone can come to God!

So after a recent conversion you began proselytizing here. I'd say that shows you were wholly unprepared, and still are.

[six7s]

No siz7's God is certainly no myth Really?

It seems to me that you simply believe it...

If you actually knew that your god is NOT a myth, you would be able to prove it

But you can't, can you?

Until you can and do dispense with your delusions and begin to think, you will remain a self-deluding liar

[Tricky]

No siz7's God is certainly no myth and one day you will have to stand before him and give an answer to why you denied his gift of grace. Jesus died to save us all!
As often is the case, Ambrose Bierce (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/m.html)is the authority on the subject.


MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true accounts which it invents later.

[Darth Rotor]

SC, I understand
I bloody well doubt that.
Do you honestly think God is there just wanting everyone to suffer?
Only when I read your posts ...

[Ralph]

All I deserve is hell


What have you done in your life that is so bad--that it makes you feel like you deserve to be punished by being tortured....forever & ever...without end?

[six7s]

All I deserve is hell What have you done in your life that is so bad--that it makes you feel like you deserve to be punished by being tortured....forever & ever...without end?@kurious_kathy,

I think Ralph might mean 'What have you done in your life, other than post a litany of lies on teh interwebs, that is so bad... etc'

[TimCallahan]

Kathy, I'm still waitingfor your response to my question on spiritual warfare and Ephesians 6.

[JetLeg]

Comparing talking to a dog to trying to have meaningful communication on Rapture Ready is a horrific insult to dogs. First of all, you can tell by the way they tilt their heads and gaze earnestly at you that dogs are really trying to understand what you're saying. And obviously, dogs are much more kindhearted and forgiving.


Interesting point.

Has anyone seen a dog with a starry-eyed look? I would sure recognize the look if I would see a dog having it.

[kurious_kathy]

I'd prefer to be seated in the non-smoking myth section please.
Heaven is certainly no myth. If you receive Jesus then you will someday see!

Blessed is the man who believes but has not seen!!

[kurious_kathy]

Okay, the obvious question is: How do you know this is the word of God? One would assume that might involve it being true, among other things. Leaving out the internal contradictions ofthe New Testament, historical inaccuracies found particularly in Acts and the often word-for-word quoting of miracle stories from the Septuagint; lets just deal with demons and Satan.

I am assuming that part of the truth you believe in is the description of spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6:10 - 16. Let us just consider verses 11 and 12 for a start:

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So, do you believe that you are actually day-to-day locked in spiritual warfare with demons? Do you believe that the "world rulers of this present darkness" refers to actual national leaders of today, and, if so, which ones? Finally, if you do believe at least in the gist of the verses above, what is your evidence of spiritual warfare and demonic atttack? Hopefully, it's something better that the testemony of Nightline's brain-fried ex-hooker. (Actually, given her streaked, peroxided hair and rather sexy affect, I wonder how much "ex" she really is.)

Sorry Tim I did not see this. Yes I believe we are in a spiritual battle against evil and the power behind it which is Satan and his demons. Everyone outside of Christ cannot see this battle, but we who are in Christ do.

And I like Paul have a thorn in my flesh which is a constant reminder of this battle. Paul was knocked off his horse, I lived through being handed over (to the evil one) to help me cry out to the Lord and repent which seems a bit like the hookers story but just a little different. I had to confront my demons (like she did) but I was not raped by them. Demons cannot indwell a true believer but they will try.

Do you know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was?

[Hokulele]

Do you know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was?


The most common theories are epilepsy or homosexuality.

[six7s]

Blessed is the man who believes but has not seen!!Wow! I had thought that 'blessed' was affirming and complimentary...

It's a slur? :eek:

[TimCallahan]

Since Paul doesn't tell us what his thorn in the flesh was, nobody really has any idea what it might have been. I will assume it was a physical symptom. Beyond that I won't speculate.

Let's take this back to Ephesians 6:12 where Paul says that the believers of his day were contending against the "world rulers of this present darkness." The present darkness he was speaking of was in the 1st. century. We are now living in the 21st. How do you square spiritual warfare today with what paul was talking about 20 centuries ago? This is particularly a problem when you consider that Paul alludes several times to the end of the world taking place in his generation, as Jesus does in his apocalyptic pronouncements in the gospels. The imminence of the apocalypse is in fact a constant theme throughout the New Testament.

If you think the present darkness extends to today, who are the world rulers who you think support it?

Finally, since you claim to see, or at leas experience some way, the demonic hosts we unbleivers cannot, what, other than personal testimonies - which are notoriously subjective and virtually impossible to prove - do you have as evidence of demonic attack?

[kurious_kathy]

The most common theories are epilepsy or homosexuality.
Try again? He had been sent a demon to buffet him to keep him humble. Do you know where this one is written?

[Cavemonster]

Try again? He had been sent a demon to buffet him to keep him humble. Do you know where this one is written?

I know I always feel humble after a good buffet.

[kurious_kathy]

Since Paul doesn't tell us what his thorn in the flesh was, nobody really has any idea what it might have been. I will assume it was a physical symptom. Beyond that I won't speculate.

Let's take this back to Ephesians 6:12 where Paul says that the believers of his day were contending against the "world rulers of this present darkness." The present darkness he was speaking of was in the 1st. century. We are now living in the 21st. How do you square spiritual warfare today with what paul was talking about 20 centuries ago? This is particularly a problem when you consider that Paul alludes several times to the end of the world taking place in his generation, as Jesus does in his apocalyptic pronouncements in the gospels. The imminence of the apocalypse is in fact a constant theme throughout the New Testament.

If you think the present darkness extends to today, who are the world rulers who you think support it?

Finally, since you claim to see, or at leas experience some way, the demonic hosts we unbleivers cannot, what, other than personal testimonies - which are notoriously subjective and virtually impossible to prove - do you have as evidence of demonic attack?
Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere. Governemt is a big concern since we see how power is misusde by power hungry men. False relgion is another huge problem since there is so much that is not true. And the list goes on and on.

Have you happened to read "Epicenter" by Joel Rosenberg? Also look at what's going on with the EU. Sure looks like we are headed for a one world currency and government just as scripture predicts. Also when this one world government is in place this world leader will deceive many to think he's wonderful, but he is evil and called the anti-Christ. It's God's story and history unfolding right before our eyes. The good news in the end all who chose Christ will be on the winning team as Jesus is sure to come back and rule and reign forever.

As for my personal testimony my husband can testify to it a bit since he was on the outside watching me go through this supernatural experience a bit that weekend. The Lord actually told him to come over to my house(while we were still seperated going through a divorce) while he did not see the other side of things I shared with him and he saw God intervening and turning my life around.

And I am not the only one testifying to Christ setting them free from their demons. The fact that I never met this ex-hooker but had a simliar experience as she did should make many of you think. There are others who had these types of experiences but unless it is your own experience I guess the on lookers just need to see since there are indeed many like us who have had these types of supernatural experiences it is something to take heed to. We are not making it up or lying. Jesus does what he has to to reach the lost. I know my redeemer lives!

[six7s]

We are not making it up or lying.Maybe not consciously

However, if you could - just for a moment - look at your faith and belief system objectively, you may well see that it is highly probable that you, like countless billions of others throughout the ages, are simply accepting and creating one of many, many worldviews that are easy but nevertheless fundamentally flawed in terms of how they 'mesh' with reality

If you can't - even for a moment - look at your faith and belief system objectively then you are thoroughly brainwashed

If you think believe that you already have looked at your faith and belief system objectively then you are fooling only yourself

[joobz]

Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere.
So I should avoid reading the rest of your post, as it is clearly a Satanic booby trap.
I see clearly now. You must be a priestess of satan. No wonder why speak such evils like claiming little babies are guilty of sin, that mental illness isn't real and that you would find pleasure in others suffering.

[TimCallahan]

In 2 Corinthians 12:7 - 9 Paul says:

And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Well, Kathy, I see nothing here about any "buffeting". Further, buffeting seems unlikely, since the problem of the "thorn in the flesh" seems to be something chronic from which Paul has repeatedly asked God to deliver him. So, unless you are asserting that Paul went through the rest of his life with a demon pounding on him, I'd say buffeting is out. I would be interested to hear what verses you're using to contend that the thorn in the flesh was a demon beating on Paul.

As to the similarity of symptomology in different cases of demonic attack, this sounds more like something involving the chemistry of the nervous system, a common symptomology relating to a common neurochemical problem. As I said previously, testimonies are notoriously hard to prove and tend to be tainted by subjective sensations and shared belief systems. Have you got some evidence to support demonic attack that is a bit more objective in nature?

As to a monolithic world government, heralded by the common currency of the European Community, it's a long way from contiguous states in a geographically small area sharing a common currency to a global government. As to it being predicted by the Bible, the only thing that could refer to would be everyone taking the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16 - 18). If that is your source, it's quite a stretch to convert a mark on one's forehead and hand into a universal monetary currency and a one-world government. You also have a problem with Rev. 1:1 (emphasis added):

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

"What must soon take place" really doesn't stretch over 2,000 years.

[Paulhoff]

False relgion is another huge problem since there is so much that is not true. And the list goes on and on.
And with your great knowledge of how things work, you just know which one is the so-called true one.

NOT

Paul

:) :) :)

[Moochie]

Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere.

<snipped for mercy>


I think bras are a "Satanic booby trap."


M.

[six7s]

Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere.

<snipped for mercy> I think bras are a "Satanic booby trap."


M.D is for deceive

D(hexadecimal) = 13(decimal)

Coincidence?

I think not!

Conclusive evidence: Satan wears a D-cup!

[kurious_kathy]

In 2 Corinthians 12:7 - 9 Paul says:

And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Well, Kathy, I see nothing here about any "buffeting". Further, buffeting seems unlikely, since the problem of the "thorn in the flesh" seems to be something chronic from which Paul has repeatedly asked God to deliver him. So, unless you are asserting that Paul went through the rest of his life with a demon pounding on him, I'd say buffeting is out. I would be interested to hear what verses you're using to contend that the thorn in the flesh was a demon beating on Paul.

As to the similarity of symptomology in different cases of demonic attack, this sounds more like something involving the chemistry of the nervous system, a common symptomology relating to a common neurochemical problem. As I said previously, testimonies are notoriously hard to prove and tend to be tainted by subjective sensations and shared belief systems. Have you got some evidence to support demonic attack that is a bit more objective in nature?

As to a monolithic world government, heralded by the common currency of the European Community, it's a long way from contiguous states in a geographically small area sharing a common currency to a global government. As to it being predicted by the Bible, the only thing that could refer to would be everyone taking the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16 - 18). If that is your source, it's quite a stretch to convert a mark on one's forehead and hand into a universal monetary currency and a one-world government. You also have a problem with Rev. 1:1 (emphasis added):

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

"What must soon take place" really doesn't stretch over 2,000 years.
Did I say buffeting meant he was getting beat on by his demon? Again it's interpretation that makes the difference. I say he heard or saw this demon (like many others still do) that was attched to him. The fact is everyone has demons they battle daily. God gives us angels to help but Satan assigns his dermons too since he is nothing more than a God copy cat wanna be.
and the verse I am referring to is 2 Corinthians 12:6-8 which in the New King James says For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

So in todays modern day psychologists would have locked Paul up as psychotic but he wasn't, he tells the truth. How do you explain the 1% in the world poulation that hears audible voices? I say it's the angelic realm for some so do not discount this as heresay.

And I have no problem with Rev1:1 so I do not know where you are going with this statement. I know God gave these visions to John and we are watching Gods story unfold to the end. Many speculate on what the mark of the beast will be but no one is really sure. Could be the chips the military is already experimenting with? I'm not sure but I know by accepting Christ I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit so I am his.
All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

[kurious_kathy]

And with your great knowledge of how things work, you just know which one is the so-called true one.

NOT

Paul

:) :) :)
The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?

[TimCallahan]

As to the interpretation of "buffeting," you were the one who said that a demon buffeting Paul was the SPECIFIC nature of his thorn in the flesh. If you say this was what "thorn in the flesh" specifically refers to, that implies a specific, rather than a general, interpretation of the word "butffet." As I recall, you said this in response to my assertion that nobody knows specifically what was the nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh.

While I shouldn't be srprised that you hae no plroblem with Rev. 1:1, and while I know that "soon" can be interpreted by believers as in terms of God's time, the fact remans that John of Patmos is speaking to his fellow mortals. Thus "soon" would have to refer to a human, not divine, interpretation of time. If this verse stood alone perhaps it wouldn't be that meaningful. However, Jesus repeatedly says in the gospels that the end is near, within his own generation, as does Paul. How is it that this isn't a problem for you?

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

Also, so far, you've yet give one shred of testable evidence for the existence of demons, angels and spiritual warfare. Your assertion that unbelievers are somehow not able to detect demons is, of course, self-serving and can neither be verified or falsified by any objective test.

[joobz]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.
I was told that your holy spirit is actually satan telling you lies.

[Moochie]

<snipped for God's sake>


All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

That'd be the veritable credit card, I say unto you.

(ETA: I see that TimCallahan hath beateth me unto it.)


M.

[six7s]

All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17602488282a523219.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13093)
Don't leave home without it

[Paulhoff]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?
You don't believe in evolution, so you don't know lies from truth then.

How old is the earth, sun, universe KK?

The so-called HolySpirit reveals only what you want to tell yourself, and all you want are lies, too bad.

Paul

:) :) :)

[kurious_kathy]

As to the interpretation of "buffeting," you were the one who said that a demon buffeting Paul was the SPECIFIC nature of his thorn in the flesh. If you say this was what "thorn in the flesh" specifically refers to, that implies a specific, rather than a general, interpretation of the word "butffet." As I recall, you said this in response to my assertion that nobody knows specifically what was the nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh.

While I shouldn't be srprised that you hae no plroblem with Rev. 1:1, and while I know that "soon" can be interpreted by believers as in terms of God's time, the fact remans that John of Patmos is speaking to his fellow mortals. Thus "soon" would have to refer to a human, not divine, interpretation of time. If this verse stood alone perhaps it wouldn't be that meaningful. However, Jesus repeatedly says in the gospels that the end is near, within his own generation, as does Paul. How is it that this isn't a problem for you?

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

Also, so far, you've yet give one shred of testable evidence for the existence of demons, angels and spiritual warfare. Your assertion that unbelievers are somehow not able to detect demons is, of course, self-serving and can neither be verified or falsified by any objective test.
What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? I do not know this girl but I know what she is sharing is true because my experience was similar when the Lord intervened to save me. Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives. I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others. A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all. And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

[six7s]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? That was predictable; although she didn't say much at all, she said nothing that ruffles the feathers of your delusion

[TimCallahan]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? I do not know this girl but I know what she is sharing is true because my experience was similar when the Lord intervened to save me. Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives. I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others. A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all. And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

I already pointed out that the commonality of experience could be neurological. What would you say about the commonality of near-death experiences? The whole going through a dark tunnel and coming out into the light thing is highly touted by New Agers. However, I'm sure you would be inclined to dismiss the validity of that experience, or would relegate it to the level of satanic deception, just as I relegate it to brain chemistry. I could just as easily relegate your shared experience with that of the ex-hooker to the category of a common delusion with its roots in neurolological symptoms.

As to a changed life as evidence, let me point out that converts to Islam also experience a changed life, as do people who have undergone psychotherapy. People in 12-step programs also experience a changed life, regardless of whether their "higher power" is Christian, something "New Agy" or simply an abstract principle.

Can you come up with something that can be tested? Also, can you answer the points I made concerning "buffeting" and the failure of the world to end in the generation of Jesus, as predicted by Jesus himself, according to the gospels?

[joobz]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? What about the fact that I am in agreement with Feyman's testimony? I get excited about not knowing. That I hate pretending to know simply as a way of avoiding uncertainty. I gained a peace of mind when I was able to adopt a more consistent and logical world view. A world view that was not provided by christianity because of it's inherent illogical contradictions.

Will you claim that my testimony doesn't count or is less valuable than your's or the woman in the video?

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives.
Or did those people turn their own lives around? I can now only assume that you willfully ignore the fact that people all over the world have the same sort of experiences yet attribute them to many different gods. This suggests that it is not the gods who are intervening, but the people themselves.

I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others.
So, when someone turns from a self-destructive or abusive pattern of behavior due to the influence of Islam or Hinduism should we not accept those testimonies as being just as valid as yours?

A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all.
Unless it's a life changed by Islam, Mehr Baba, Humanism etc. Then you choose to ignore it as evidence.

And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.
And if I just choose to believe in Santa Clause then I'll believe in toy-making elves and flying reindeer too.

[pgwenthold]

Or did those people turn their own lives around? I can now only assume that you willfully ignore the fact that people all over the world have the same sort of experiences yet attribute them to many different gods. This suggests that it is not the gods who are intervening, but the people themselves.

There's actually an important implication of Kathy's comment that she refuses to acknowledge. If people have turned their lives around because of "God's grace working on their lives," what does that say about people who HAVEN'T turned their lives around? Like me, for example. Either God's grace is not working on me, which makes you wonder about how good God's grace is, or that God isn't sending his grace my way.

If God can use his grace to turn other people's lives around, why doesn't he do it for me? Note, she can't use the "free will" excuse, because she has already admitted that God is able to change other lives. Thus, I conclude that it would have to be because God doesn't want me to change.

So Kathy, why are you trying to defy God's will?

[Foster Zygote]

There's actually an important implication of Kathy's comment that she refuses to acknowledge. If people have turned their lives around because of "God's grace working on their lives," what does that say about people who HAVEN'T turned their lives around? Like me, for example. Either God's grace is not working on me, which makes you wonder about how good God's grace is, or that God isn't sending his grace my way.

If God can use his grace to turn other people's lives around, why doesn't he do it for me? Note, she can't use the "free will" excuse, because she has already admitted that God is able to change other lives. Thus, I conclude that it would have to be because God doesn't want me to change.

So Kathy, why are you trying to defy God's will?

Joshua 11:20
"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses."

God took away their free will, putting in their minds the desire to wage war against Israel, because if they'd sought peace then he wouldn't have an easy excuse to commit genocide.

[Sun Countess]

Beware if you're waiting for the 7th Potter movie and haven't bothered with the books: SPOILERS ahead:

I cried when Hedwig died in the 7th book. I cried when Dobby died. I felt like a wimp, but I looked around the internetz and saw that I wasn't alone in crying for fictional non-human characters. We shared an experience. I absolutely believe that these other people cried just as surely as I did. Over a work of fiction. It can happen.

The feelings were real, but the experiences that precipitated them were pure fiction.

And I daresay that there are plenty of other known works of fiction that have changed people's lives for the better. So the bible isn't really unique in that regard either.

[bobcarp]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?


And why provide proof when speaking with rhetoric is so much easier....

[dafydd]

The devil is old news ever since the Vatican announced the discovery of the Super-Devil. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3a73d8811b/the-super-devil)

Satan,The Second Generation! Tremble!

[dafydd]

I know I always feel humble after a good buffet.

Cannibals really enjoy a good a finger buffet.

[dafydd]

"There ain't no devil, that's just God when he's drunk."

Tom Waits?

[Foster Zygote]

Tom Waits?

Yup. From Heartattack & Vine.

[six7s]

There ain't no god... Its just Tom Waits when he's sober

[Rogue1stclass]

Looks to me like Nightline deliberately picked a panel of the biggest loons they could find. Hoping for that Coast to Coast freakshow audience, I guess. It could have actually been an interesting show with a decent panel. I'd have liked to have seen, for instance, a Fundementalist, a Priest, a Rabbi and maybe some stripe of Islamic cleric discuss this topic.

What can I say? Religions fascinate me.

[kurious_kathy]

And why provide proof when speaking with rhetoric is so much easier....
Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!

[MattusMaximus]

Did I say buffeting meant he was getting beat on by his demon?

Is that a euphemism? :p

Seriously, I cannot believe this stupid thread has gone on this long...

:popcorn1

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Seriously, I cannot believe this stupid thread has gone on this long...

Kind of like trying to draw blood from a rock or flog a dead horse isn't it?

[Foster Zygote]

Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!

Why do you avoid discussing the fact that people report life changing experiences that involve other religions? What about someone who gives up a life of crime and drug abuse and dedicates himself to the betterment of his family and community because of the influence of Islam in his life? You say "I was on a path to self destruction but I changed, so Jesus must be real". What about the people who say the same thing about other religions?

[bobcarp]

Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!

How did the lord intervene? Did he appear before you and say "don't get divorced"?

If a Hindu or a person of another religion said the same thing happend to them (and there are billions) when they devoted their life to THEIR god would that convince you they are right? Why should your rhetoric convince us?

[Tricky]

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!
We know what you say, but you haven't given us any reason to believe you. You have not provided any evidence that any of the supernatural beings that you believe exist, nor have you shown that religion has made you more moral. If your behavior here is any guideline, it has made you horribly immoral.

So I will remain skeptical about your God and Devil until you or someone else provides a good reason not to be. I will not hold my breath.

[Ralph]

I've been clean & sober since 1994.

I worked the AA/NA program although as an atheist I left out the whole god part.

I never asked god for help or to remove my desire to use. I even laughed my ass off at Sam Kinnison.

Here I am 15 years later & doing fine.

There was a very nice young man who was going to a lot of the same meetings I went to.
He believed in god--but was never preachy about it.

He was what you could call a very "spiritual" individual...in a nice kind of way.

He was always pleasant to listen too--always very positive although he was obviously struggling with his addiction.

One day.....he doused himself in gasoline,lit a match, and that was it.

You have to wonder--what kind of personal hell is a person going through to cause him to not only end his own life---but to end it in such a horrible way.

Just another example of god & his mysterious ways I guess

[MattusMaximus]

I would love to see KK's response to Ralph's post.

:popcorn1

[TimCallahan]

And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

Let's look at what we have to accept to go along with this assertion. We must believe that a perfect god made everything, that it was good, but that one of his angels led a rebellion against him and in turn corrupted human beings as the serpent in the garden of Eden. This same rebellious angel and his minions continue to try to destroy human beings through spiritual warfare even today.

We are told by apologists for this view that the reason Satan and his fellow rebellious angels chose to revolt was that God gave angels and humans free will. Thus, some would choose evil. The problem with this explanation is that, God being perfect, all of his creations would logically reflect his perfection. Thus, given a free will choice between good and evil, they would choose good. Angels, including Satan, would also have intellects far above our own and would be able to see in advance the consequences of their actions.

Therefore, Kathy, to accept your world view, we have to believe that an all good God created a being, Satan, who chose evil, even knowing that his rebellion would most likely fail. Once the revolt failed, this same fallen angel, again a being of superhuman intellect, did not repent and seek forgiveness, but instead continues in disobedience and evil, even knowing that God will eventually destroy him.

On God's part, we have a creator whose omniscience must have told him in advance that Satan would rebel and mess up his creation. Yet, he created Satan anyway.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Leaving all this aside, however, the only evidences you have presented for spiritual warfare, demonic attack and the existence of Satan are your own subjective belief that you were being physically assaulted by demons, the commonality of your subjective sensations with those of the former prostitute and the evidence of changed lives among those who've accepted Jesus.

I've already answered that the commonality of experience could just as easily reflect a commonality of neurological symptoms. Others on this thread have pointed out changed lives among those who've accepted Allah and among atheists who have adopted a given, structured program of behavior.

So, we are still left without any evidence of the existence of demons and have no more reason to beleive in them than we have to accept the existence of giant sea serpents. Since one cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, whether it is for the existence of sea serpents, angels or devils.

[Moochie]

I've been clean & sober since 1994.

I worked the AA/NA program although as an atheist I left out the whole god part.

I never asked god for help or to remove my desire to use. I even laughed my ass off at Sam Kinnison.

Here I am 15 years later & doing fine.

There was a very nice young man who was going to a lot of the same meetings I went to.
He believed in god--but was never preachy about it.

He was what you could call a very "spiritual" individual...in a nice kind of way.

He was always pleasant to listen too--always very positive although he was obviously struggling with his addiction.

One day.....he doused himself in gasoline,lit a match, and that was it.

You have to wonder--what kind of personal hell is a person going through to cause him to not only end his own life---but to end it in such a horrible way.

Just another example of god & his mysterious ways I guess


I think I have highlighted the key word.


M.

[Moochie]

Let's look at what we have to accept to go along with this assertion. We must believe that a perfect god made everything, that it was good, but that one of his angels led a rebellion against him and in turn corrupted human beings as the serpent in the garden of Eden. This same rebellious angel and his minions continue to try to destroy human beings through spiritual warfare even today.

We are told by apologists for this view that the reason Satan and his fellow rebellious angels chose to revolt was that God gave angels and humans free will. Thus, some would choose evil. The problem with this explanation is that, God being perfect, all of his creations would logically reflect his perfection. Thus, given a free will choice between good and evil, they would choose good. Angels, including Satan, would also have intellects far above our own and would be able to see in advance the consequences of their actions.

Therefore, Kathy, to accept your world view, we have to believe that an all good God created a being, Satan, who chose evil, even knowing that his rebellion would most likely fail. Once the revolt failed, this same fallen angel, again a being of superhuman intellect, did not repent and seek forgiveness, but instead continues in disobedience and evil, even knowing that God will eventually destroy him.

On God's part, we have a creator whose omniscience must have told him in advance that Satan would rebel and mess up his creation. Yet, he created Satan anyway.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Leaving all this aside, however, the only evidences you have presented for spiritual warfare, demonic attack and the existence of Satan are your own subjective belief that you were being physically assaulted by demons, the commonality of your subjective sensations with those of the former prostitute and the evidence of changed lives among those who've accepted Jesus.

I've already answered that the commonality of experience could just as easily reflect a commonality of neurological symptoms. Others on this thread have pointed out changed lives among those who've accepted Allah and among atheists who have adopted a given, structured program of behavior.

So, we are still left without any evidence of the existence of demons and have no more reason to beleive in them than we have to accept the existence of giant sea serpents. Since one cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, whether it is for the existence of sea serpents, angels or devils.

I find it amusing that, for all this talk of belief and nonbelief, I have to ask, how many among us believe that science (or the fruits thereof) will ultimately save us from the perceivable catastrophe this planet (and everyone on it) is likely to experience thanks to the effects of human interference in the ecosystem? Did we even understand what an ecosystem was a few decades ago? Yet, as far as I can see (admittedly no farther than anyone else) we, as a species, are continuing along our merry way as if there will always be potable water; as if there will always be breathable air; as if there will always be enough usable energy to power all of our inventions eg, oil, coal, uranium, etc, and most importantly, IMO, we continue to reproduce as though there were no tomorrow.

We're in trouble now. How will we be when there are 10, or even 20 billion of us, if the species manages to survive?


M.

[six7s]

how many among us believe that science (or the fruits thereof) I don't believe in science, but I do trust the scientific method (in regard to formulating questions and finding answers to 'reality' stuff)

...the perceivable catastrophe this planet (and everyone on it) is likely to experience thanks to the effects of human interference in the ecosystem?Maybe this might be better in a new thread...

[thaiboxerken]

We're in trouble now. How will we be when there are 10, or even 20 billion of us, if the species manages to survive?


M.

Well, if we could convince people that the earth was not given to us by a god and that there really is no Rapture, we might actually make progress.

[six7s]

Well, if we could convince people that the earth was not given to us by a god and that there really is no Rapture, we might actually make progress.Although the overwhelming majority of us have never subscribed to Judeo Christian-style nonsense, we are - it seems - nevertheless going backwards (for examples: see the skies and waterways etc of China, India and Africa)

[Moochie]

Although the overwhelming majority of us have never subscribed to Judeo Christian-style nonsense, we are - it seems - nevertheless going backwards (for examples: see the skies and waterways etc of China, India and Africa)

That is the conundrum. Instead of some of us living in McMansions, we could, perhaps, all be living in modest housing with sewerage and electricity. The promise of such would convince many not to have a litter of kids, I think. As always, I could be wrong.


M.

[Moochie]

Well, if we could convince people that the earth was not given to us by a god and that there really is no Rapture, we might actually make progress.

Amen to that. :)


M.

[dafydd]

Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!

Wake up lol.That is rich coming from someone who is in a coma of ignorance.

[dafydd]

Kathy,I know a man who got off heroin when the Hare Krishnas scooped him up.He is still a baldy and he blesses Krishna for curing him.Does Krishna exist?

[kurious_kathy]

Why do you avoid discussing the fact that people report life changing experiences that involve other religions? What about someone who gives up a life of crime and drug abuse and dedicates himself to the betterment of his family and community because of the influence of Islam in his life? You say "I was on a path to self destruction but I changed, so Jesus must be real". What about the people who say the same thing about other religions?

Okay so you have a point, whatever a person puts their faith in will affect their life, but there is still only one truth that will save a mans soul!

Jesus is the only way to the Father and to be truly free from the other lies of this world (including other false religions) I know it sounds a bit close minded to some I'm sure but it is still the very truth of God!!

Jesus died to save mankind from their sins, and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!! Listen to pastor Mark again on this nightline video, he speaks the truth.

[Paulhoff]

That is a pretty poor so-called god that has only one way to it.

So, there is only one way into your house, poor design.

Paul

:) :) :)

[thaiboxerken]

Okay so you have a point, whatever a person puts their faith in will affect their life, but there is still only one truth that will save a mans soul!

Jesus is the only way to the Father and to be truly free from the other lies of this world (including other false religions) I know it sounds a bit close minded to some I'm sure but it is still the very truth of God!!

Jesus died to save mankind from their sins, and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!! Listen to pastor Mark again on this nightline video, he speaks the truth.

WRONG!! I am the only way to be saved! I am god, but you may call me Master. Bow before me or be forever damned to refereeing curling events!

[Foster Zygote]

Okay so you have a point, whatever a person puts their faith in will affect their life,...
So you admit that "Christianity changed my life" is not evidence that Christianity is true.

...but there is still only one truth that will save a mans soul!
And, of course, because you were raised in a culture in which Christianity was familiar to you, that one truth is Christianity. But if you were raised in a culture in which Hinduism or Islam were what you were familiar with you would be claiming that Hinduism or Islam was the one truth.

Jesus is the only way to the Father and to be truly free from the other lies of this world (including other false religions) I know it sounds a bit close minded to some I'm sure but it is still the very truth of God!!
It is closed-minded. Please imagine that you were born in India where you were raised among Hindus. You know next to nothing about other religions, but all the positive role models you know are Hindu. All the messages of love and hope and kindness you know come from Hindu teachings. In this hypothetical situation, Christianity is as alien to you as Hinduism is to you in your real life. Do you deserve eternal damnation?

Jesus died to save mankind from their sins, and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!!! Listen to pastor Mark again on this nightline video, he speaks the truth.
Why should I accept your message any more than I should accept the messages of dozens of other religions that promise happiness if I'll only follow their one true truth?

[kurious_kathy]

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads..

I just linked this video on another thread but I wanted to b sure to share it with you too as you had made this statement reguarding the mark of the beast. This Pastor is sharing info on the RFID being related to the mark. Check this out http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886083780458588815

[slingblade]

I can't wait for mine! But I really can't make up my mind...hand or forehead? I mean, look at that debacle with that girl and all those tattooed stars on her face. No thanks.
And it might be harder for me to get a job with the MARK OF THE BEAST on my forehead.

But if I get it on my hand, I'll have to take my gloves off in the winter every single time I want to buy and sell. That could get to be a real pain. And it's certainly going to clash with my slave bracelet jewelry.

I just don't know. But I am sure it's gonna rock, either way! Bring it on!

[TimCallahan]

I just linked this video on another thread but I wanted to b sure to share it with you too as you had made this statement reguarding the mark of the beast. This Pastor is sharing info on the RFID being related to the mark. Check this out http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886083780458588815

Let me see if I understand this raving jack-ass correctly: Because pets have chips inserted under their skin, it means that people are going to be coerced into doing the same. Following the "logic" of this argument, we could argue that once the technology of branding cattle was perfected, people would authomatically be branded as well.

The people who were seemingly enthusiastic about such chips were older folks who seemed to feel they might be protected from the ill effects of "senior moments." However, I can assure you that, although I'm 65, I have no desire for such a chip. Of course, it's a long way from people volunteering for such a chip and such a chip being cumpulsary. Such a chip, by the way, could probably be wiped clean by the wearer passing through the field of an elctromagnet. In fact, haveing an MRI might well disable it.

As to Revelation "predicting" such a technology, this is pure clap-trap. What Revelation actually predicted, in its first verse, was that what it predicted would SOON TAKE PLACE, not that it would happen 2,000 years in the future. Only by excessive rationalization and liberal amounts of special pleading can Revelation be seen as anything other than a failed prophecy.

In point of fact, not even the religious commentators who prey on the paranoia of their credulous followers really believe any of this. For example, years ago when I was monitoring our local fundamentalist radio station, KKLA, their programs would commonly feature one author or another who would say with great certainty that the world was shorty due to enter the Tribulation (the 7 yr. rule of the Beast). Then they would go to a commercial. These were often for such things as degree completion programs, low interest college tuition loans, and living trusts to help your heirs avoid probate. All these long-term programs were advertised, yet there wasn't a single add for real estate suitable for compounds in rural Idaho.

I suggest that, rather than worrying about when the world will end - your world will end on the day you die - you deal with real life. Remember: "Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof."

[kurious_kathy]

I suggest that, rather than worrying about when the world will end - your world will end on the day you die - you deal with real life. Remember: "Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof."

Yes Tim I deal with reality too and everyday there are struggles, but God is here with me no matter what's going on in my life or around the world. He is the only one who gives me peace that surpasses all understanding. Satan on the other hand is always trying to mess things up so I give God my battles as he is the only one who can win them for me.

As for death, yes I am more likely to die than to see the rapture but who knows? The only thing I do know for sure is when I leave this life I am on to the next and I look forward to a new life in my redeemed body someday which the Lord has promised me. It's hard to fathom what it will actually be like, but I know without a doubt the best is yet to come!

P.S. As for the OP... Satan does indeed exist but God is the one who has defeated the enemy of our souls for us!

[Paulhoff]

Yes Tim I deal with reality too and everyday there are struggles, but God is here with me no matter what's going on in my life or around the world. He is the only one who gives me peace that surpasses all understanding.
No, not even close KK, not even close to understanding, way way way off the mark.

Paul

:) :) :)

[TimCallahan]

Yes Tim I deal with reality too and everyday there are struggles, but God is here with me no matter what's going on in my life or around the world. He is the only one who gives me peace that surpasses all understanding. Satan on the other hand is always trying to mess things up so I give God my battles as he is the only one who can win them for me.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but frankly Kathy, with all your descriptions of Satanic attacks and the like, you don't sound like someone at peace, certainly not the "peace that surpasses all understanding." Rather, you live in a world where you see Satan constantly tormenting or attmpting to torment you.

Several years ago, at a party, I heard a woman tell how Satan tried to stop her from going to work that day, but God strngthened her. The reality was probably more like this: She woke up feeling down and considered calling in sick that day, but instead did the responsible thing and went to work. Of course, there's a lot more drama involved if God and Satan are doing battle over whether you will or will not tie your shoes.

[joobz]

Yes Tim I deal with reality too and everyday there are struggles, but God is here with me no matter what's going on in my life or around the world.
I'm glad you have something to give you solace.

He is the only one who gives me peace that surpasses all understanding. Satan on the other hand is always trying to mess things up so I give God my battles as he is the only one who can win them for me.
Now I'm not so glad. You just anthropomorphized good and bad, and absolved yourself of responsibility for the events in your life. That's a rejection of being an adult.


As for death, yes I am more likely to die than to see the rapture but who knows? The only thing I do know for sure is when I leave this life I am on to the next and I look forward to a new life in my redeemed body someday which the Lord has promised me. It's hard to fathom what it will actually be like, but I know without a doubt the best is yet to come!
You live life like it's not worth living. That's not a story of hope but of dispair.

P.S. As for the OP... Satan does indeed exist but God is the one who has defeated the enemy of our souls for us!
The bad guy will get you, but the good guy will protect you. All the while, you sit as a spectator in your own life.....

[Ralph]

No, not even close KK, not even close to understanding, way way way off the mark.

Paul

:) :) :)


Take a quick spin through Rapture Ready sometime.

You won't find as many sad & depressed individuals on a terminal cancer forum.

Marital problems-drug & alcoholism-sleep disorders-severe depression to the point of contemplating suicide------and whole lot of people who are just living every moment of their day wishing the rapture would come.

Not to be closer to jesus or to bask in gods glory.....but just because they are so depressed & miserable in their own lives.

I'll agree--if that's "peace"--it truly is beyond my understanding.

[billydkid]

This is beyond belief! It seems like a parody. Are they seriously discussing on Nightline whether or not Satan exists??? Good God in heaven. And we are different from those backward, superstitious Muslims how???

[Sun Countess]

In response to: He is the only one who gives me peace that surpasses all understanding. Satan on the other hand is always trying to mess things up so I give God my battles as he is the only one who can win them for me.
joobz wrote:
Now I'm not so glad. You just anthropomorphized good and bad, and absolved yourself of responsibility for the events in your life. That's a rejection of being an adult.
So very true. I agree with all that you and Tim Callahan said. She absolves herself of responsibility for being an adult, but is also denying herself the credit for any good decisions she may happen to make.


I get the sense that Kathy lives a pretty sad life, and feels special thinking that there are supernatural forces fighting for her very soul, and interested in the most mundane activities of her day as they do battle over her.

[TimCallahan]

Okay, Kathy, here's your chance to prove us all wrong. Consider these questions:

1) Are you involved in a long term relationship with another human being that fulfills at least some of your emotional needs? If you're married, do you trust your spouse, and is your relationship with him serene and reasonably free of conflict?

2) Are you in a fulfilling or at least absorbing career? Or do find serenity in your work?

3) Do you wake up most days with a feeling of dread or a sense of futility and insignificance?

4) Do you believe you are under attack, either by people at your workplace, or by supernatural forces?

I'm no shrink, and these questions are certainly not from any official psychological text. However, it seems to me that positive answers to the first two and negative answers to the last two would indicate someone with a reasonably joyful life. Negative answers to the first two and positeve answers to the last two would indicate the reverse.

[kurious_kathy]

So you admit that "Christianity changed my life" is not evidence that Christianity is true.


And, of course, because you were raised in a culture in which Christianity was familiar to you, that one truth is Christianity. But if you were raised in a culture in which Hinduism or Islam were what you were familiar with you would be claiming that Hinduism or Islam was the one truth.


It is closed-minded. Please imagine that you were born in India where you were raised among Hindus. You know next to nothing about other religions, but all the positive role models you know are Hindu. All the messages of love and hope and kindness you know come from Hindu teachings. In this hypothetical situation, Christianity is as alien to you as Hinduism is to you in your real life. Do you deserve eternal damnation?


Why should I accept your message any more than I should accept the messages of dozens of other religions that promise happiness if I'll only follow their one true truth?

Jesus himself said, "narrow is the way and few who find it."

And just because I am an American girl does not mean I was raised to be a Christian as my parents did not raise me to walk in the ways of the Lord. Jesus found me later in life and he is the one who saves those who are capable of hearing his voice, so even if I was in another part of the world and raised in another religion, He would have found me and pulled me out of what ever I was raised to believe. Jesus is the one who saves and changes us once we come to accept him as Lord of our life and it truly is a supernatural phenomenon that I assure you is very real!

The only way you will ever know is to accept Christ! I am not the one who can convince anyone but if you were to start agreeing with God and admitting your need for him I believe you would come to know what I am sharing is true. Jesus loves you!!

[Paulhoff]

Jesus found me later in life and he is the one who saves those who are capable of hearing his voice, so even if I was in another part of the world and raised in another religion
Funny, Jews don't need a middle man to talk to their so-called god, why do you, bad connection?

Paul

:) :) :)

[joobz]

Jesus himself said, "narrow is the way and few who find it."
You would think god would make the road a bit more obvious....if he actually wanted people to follow him.

And just because I am an American girl does not mean I was raised to be a Christian as my parents did not raise me to walk in the ways of the Lord.
How were you raised? How were your parents raised?


The only way you will ever know is to accept Christ!
So, you must believe in order to believe. Yeah!!!!

[kurious_kathy]

Funny, Jews don't need a middle man to talk to their so-called god, why do you, bad connection?

Paul

:) :) :)

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah, but we are still in the time of gentiles being saved so unfortunately it does seem many Jews are still blind to the truth about Jesus. As I understand it more Jews will come to faith in Christ through the great tribulation which is surely getting closer each day.

I also think its horribly sad that so many Jews have suffered persection, but can't you see it's because Satan does exist and he knows the Jews are God's chosen people whom he hates with a vengance? If Satan does not exist then why have so many Jews suffered needlessly?

[kurious_kathy]

You would think god would make the road a bit more obvious....if he actually wanted people to follow him.


How were you raised? How were your parents raised?


So, you must believe in order to believe. Yeah!!!!

Yes we must first have faith to believe God before we can find him. It's easy, you just get to a place where you accept him and then he comes to live in you and shows you the way.

I was raised in a broken home with a dad who was hardly around since I was 2. He was raised Catholic but fell away quite young and I ever new this till years later as my dad unfortunately does not talk about God. He does relate to Rush quite well so I think his understanding of God may be similar to Rush's even though he never talks about Jesus.

My mom struggled as a single mom and even though she took us to a Lutheran church when I was very young she stopped going so I do not remember my mom sharing her faith with us at all. I think she may have babtised me as a baby in the Lutheran church but I'm not sure. I babtised myself later when I accepted Christ.

As for God making the road easy, forget it. Jesus himself said we must pick up our cross and follow after him once we receive him. He is the one who changes everything!

As for the OP, I never knew just how real spiritual warfare was until I received Christ, now I know Satan does exist and he is deceiving way too many people. If you had Jesus open your eyes you would know too!

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus himself said, "narrow is the way and few who find it."
This fails to address my point.

And just because I am an American girl does not mean I was raised to be a Christian as my parents did not raise me to walk in the ways of the Lord.
So you were never exposed to Christianity? You never heard of Christianity? Christianity was every bit as alien to you as Islam or Hinduism and you were equally likely to be exposed to all other religions as you were Christianity?

Jesus found me later in life and he is the one who saves those who are capable of hearing his voice, so even if I was in another part of the world and raised in another religion, He would have found me and pulled me out of what ever I was raised to believe.
So if you were living in a part of rural India where Christianity was virtually unknown you would still have come to evangelical Christianity? Or is it that you have difficulty admitting to yourself the accidental nature of the circumstances that led you to one particular religion out of many?

Jesus is the one who saves and changes us once we come to accept him as Lord of our life and it truly is a supernatural phenomenon that I assure you is very real!
That's just what people who worship other gods say about their deities.

The only way you will ever know is to accept Christ! I am not the one who can convince anyone but if you were to start agreeing with God and admitting your need for him I believe you would come to know what I am sharing is true. Jesus loves you!!
And if I just believe in Santa Clause I will belive in Santa Clause.

[Foster Zygote]

Yes we must first have faith to believe God before we can find him. It's easy, you just get to a place where you accept him and then he comes to live in you and shows you the way.
So, to believe in God, all we have to do is believe in God. That's silly.

My mom struggled as a single mom and even though she took us to a Lutheran church when I was very young she stopped going so I do not remember my mom sharing her faith with us at all. I think she may have babtised me as a baby in the Lutheran church but I'm not sure. I babtised myself later when I accepted Christ.
So you have memories of attending Christian church. Do you have any memories of attending any mosques, temples or synagogues?

[Paulhoff]

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah,
Then they are no longer Jews...............

The would be called christians............

And that still doesn't make Jesus real.........

Paul

:) :) :)

[kurious_kathy]

Then they are no longer Jews...............

The would be called christians............

And that still doesn't make Jesus real.........

Paul

:) :) :)

Paul, Jesus is VERY REAL! And we live in a world that is not merely materialistic, we are supernatural beings with a soul that will go on forever. Why is it so hard for you to believe in the unseen world?

As for the born again Jews, they call themselves Messianic Jews. What's so exciting to me is to see how zealous they are for God once they meet their Messiah! You will never meet a more on fire for the Lord Chrisitian than a Messianic Jew. I am happy to know we are all one family through Christ!

P.S.Why stay in the dark with Satan when the light is much more exciting and brilliant?

[kurious_kathy]

So, to believe in God, all we have to do is believe in God. That's silly.


So you have memories of attending Christian church. Do you have any memories of attending any mosques, temples or synagogues?

It's simple faith like a child that God honors. What's so great about being intellectual if you lose the simplicity of childlike faith? Can your intellent save you? I think some of you intellectuals would do well to try to be more balanced. Just an observation of mine.

And I thought I stated I did not remember going to church as a baby or very young girl, did you read that statement correctly? My mom said she took us to church but I do not recall much of my childhood at all. I think God has protected me from some of those memories as some of what happened to me as a young girl was very bad. Either way I was not raised in a Christian home. My parents were divorced and I often wonder what it would have been like in my life if they had stayed together. "I see how Satan has worked overtime destroying the family unit which is God's design."

I will reinerate one of my statements from the above,even if I had been raised in a different part of the world or different religion, Jesus would have saved me and pulled me out of any of those other false religions. Only Christ is capable of setting the captives free!

[TimCallahan]

As for God making the road easy, forget it. Jesus himself said we must pick up our cross and follow after him once we receive him. He is the one who changes everything!

As for the OP, I never knew just how real spiritual warfare was until I received Christ, now I know Satan does exist and he is deceiving way too many people. If you had Jesus open your eyes you would know too!

So you're saying that things actually get WORSE once you become a Christian. You also say that once you receive Christ you know you're involved in a spiritual war.

By the way, speaking of spiritual warfare, did you know that Paul based the "whole armor of God" in Ephesians 6 on an earlier work, the Wisdom of Solomon, written ca. 100 BCE, a book not accepted as canonical by Protestant denominations? Here's a comparison of relevant verses:

Wisdom of Solomon 5:17 - 20

The Lord will take his zeal as his whole armor,
and will arm all creation to repel his enemies;
he will put on righteousness as a breastplate,
and wear impartial justice as a helmet;
he will take holiness as an invincible shield
and sharpen stern wrath as a sword.

Ephesians 6:13a, 14 - 17:

Therefore take the whole armor of God . . . . Stand, therefore having girded your loins with truth, and havine put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation , and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

[joobz]

Yes we must first have faith to believe God before we can find him. It's easy, you just get to a place where you accept him and then he comes to live in you and shows you the way.nothing else in reality works this way.
If I don't believe in gravity, it still effects me and I can detect it.
If I don't believe in sunline, it still burns me and I can detect it.
If I don't believe in evolution, the evidence for it still exists.
Nothing in reality requires my prior belief or me to see it.

IF god does, than that makes god less powerful and impactful then anything else in reality.

I was raised in a broken home with a dad who was hardly around since I was 2. He was raised Catholic but fell away quite young and I ever new this till years later as my dad unfortunately does not talk about God. He does relate to Rush quite well so I think his understanding of God may be similar to Rush's even though he never talks about Jesus.

My mom struggled as a single mom and even though she took us to a Lutheran church when I was very young she stopped going so I do not remember my mom sharing her faith with us at all. I think she may have babtised me as a baby in the Lutheran church but I'm not sure. I babtised myself later when I accepted Christ.

So you lied. You WERE brouht up in a christian background. It may not have been AS christian as you claim to be now, but you were exposed to the concept of Jesus as a child.


As for the OP, I never knew just how real spiritual warfare was until I received Christ, now I know Satan does exist and he is deceiving way too many people. If you had Jesus open your eyes you would know too!
So, I must believe in order to believe. Nope. Still not a convincing argument.

[Paulhoff]

Paul, Jesus is VERY REAL!
No, to you he is real, that still does not make him real, and that is because you think you need him. That is a shame, the shame is that you can't forgive yourself for making a mistakes or mistakes. It also seems that the people that mean anything to you can't forgive you unless say you found Jesus. Until you can realy forgive yourself, you'll never get that monkey off you back.

A christian, is anyone that thinks that Jesus is the son of a so-called god, if someone whats to call themselves something else, fine, they are still a christain.

Paul

:) :) :)

[MarkCorrigan]

Or did those people turn their own lives around? I can now only assume that you willfully ignore the fact that people all over the world have the same sort of experiences yet attribute them to many different gods. This suggests that it is not the gods who are intervening, but the people themselves.



I have to make a point here.

I was, for a long time, a bit of a waste of space. I'm intelligent, and I'm not a bad person at all, but I was lazy and depressed. I was upset by the fact I was going nowhere in life and that made me feel even more useless. I felt trapped in a cycle that would lead me down to my grave, possibly by suicide. I wanted to kill myself because I was a stupid waste of oxygen who couldn't do anything right. I was ugly, cowardly, lazy and stupid in my mind, and I didn't deserve any of the small successes that I achieved.

For one brief period I gained lucidity, I worked hard at my university work for the first time and got decent grades, but I rapidly fell back into self loathing and laziness. I was at my wits end.

Then I was saved. Not by god, not by any higher power, but by another flawed, but wonderful human being. My girlfriend, as she now is, saved me from myself and helped me turn my life around. I wasn't doing drugs, or killing myself slowly with anything like that, but I was heading on a downward spiral all the same.

I still have my depression, and every now and then I get a little more upset than I should by some things, but with the emotional support from the woman I love, I am now employed, with a decent degree from a respectable university and actually have plans (of sorts) for the future. I'm not wasting my life anymore, I am finally doing something with it, small as it may be for the moment, and I needed no god or promise of heaven to get me there. No loving deity opened my eyes, only a loving human being, whom I care about so much. We help one another now, and we're very very happy. Life isn't perfect, but we make the best of it.

So what say you to that KK? Should I attribute my successes to God, despite the fact that neither I nor my girlfriend believe in him, or any other religious or spiritual power? Or is my current happiness and state of near stability a trick by Satan? (If so, could he please keep it up? Things are going great).

[MarkCorrigan]

If Satan does not exist then why have so many Jews suffered needlessly?
Because people can be cruel and hateful towards relatively small minorities?

Because orthodox Jews tend to be rather isolationist in their stance to non Jews (NB, I realise this is a sweeping statement and could be applied to any religion) and thus they are treated with suspicion and fear?

Because people like picking on smaller, weaker groups than them to make themselves feel good thanks to mob mentality?

Because both Christianity and Islam have sects (and not always small ones) who have written into their very docterine a fear and hatred of the Jews for rejecting Jesus/the revelations of Mohammed (delete as appropriate)?

Lots and lots of reasons. Mythical red men with horns don't appear in any.

[lightfire22000]

I think Satan just means "accuser" in Hebrew, so in that sense it exists.

Mostly, Satan/Devil/Lucifer/Beelzebub is just a fusion of several myths and stories. Satan exists, like those myths and stories exist. It's not even in the Bible explicitly. Satan is an anthropomorphic creature expressed in human nature.

Family Guy taught me that the Devil isn't the greatest threat though. The Super Devil is the greatest threat.

[Foster Zygote]

It's simple faith like a child that God honors. What's so great about being intellectual if you lose the simplicity of childlike faith? Can your intellent save you? I think some of you intellectuals would do well to try to be more balanced. Just an observation of mine.
Thank you for affirming that it takes a complete rejection of intelligence to become like you. Joobz was right: you feel threatened by intellect.

And I thought I stated I did not remember going to church as a baby or very young girl, did you read that statement correctly? My mom said she took us to church but I do not recall much of my childhood at all. I think God has protected me from some of those memories as some of what happened to me as a young girl was very bad. Either way I was not raised in a Christian home.
You still don't get it: you found Christianity because you were surrounded by it. The great majority of religious people whom you could have encountered are Christian. Had you been born in India you might have been surrounded by Hindus or Sikhs or Muslims or Jainists or any number of other religions. Then you would be marveling that Christians could be so blind to the one true faith.

My parents were divorced and I often wonder what it would have been like in my life if they had stayed together. "I see how Satan has worked overtime destroying the family unit which is God's design."
Yet here I am, a faithful husband still passionately in love with my wife, a loving father who can't get enough of my child's laughter, and an atheist. You're still making your sales pitch on the assumption that people who don't share your beliefs are miserably unhappy. Why can't you come to terms with the fact that many, many people are happy in their lives without sharing your beliefs?

I will reinerate one of my statements from the above,even if I had been raised in a different part of the world or different religion, Jesus would have saved me and pulled me out of any of those other false religions. Only Christ is capable of setting the captives free!
Reiterate. And you don't know that, you just want to believe it.

[Foster Zygote]

If Satan does not exist then why have so many Jews suffered needlessly?
You do realize just how many of those Jews suffered at the hands of Christians, yes?

For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terribly, so unmercifully, and in addition keep silent, comforting them neither with words nor with deeds, and fixing no time limit and no end to it. Who would have faith, hope, or love toward such a God? Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God. This is in accord with Hosea 1:9, "Call his name Not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your God." Yes, unfortunately, this is their lot, truly a terrible one. They may interpret this as they will; we see the facts before our eyes, and these do not deceive us.

Martin Luther

[kurious_kathy]

This fails to address my point.


So you were never exposed to Christianity? You never heard of Christianity? Christianity was every bit as alien to you as Islam or Hinduism and you were equally likely to be exposed to all other religions as you were Christianity?


So if you were living in a part of rural India where Christianity was virtually unknown you would still have come to evangelical Christianity? Or is it that you have difficulty admitting to yourself the accidental nature of the circumstances that led you to one particular religion out of many?


That's just what people who worship other gods say about their deities.


And if I just believe in Santa Clause I will belive in Santa Clause.

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

[Cavemonster]

It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

Really? There are numerous documented cases of people who were somehow never exposed to the Christian religion having an experience with Jesus?

Links please.

[kurious_kathy]

So you're saying that things actually get WORSE once you become a Christian. You also say that once you receive Christ you know you're involved in a spiritual war.

By the way, speaking of spiritual warfare, did you know that Paul based the "whole armor of God" in Ephesians 6 on an earlier work, the Wisdom of Solomon, written ca. 100 BCE, a book not accepted as canonical by Protestant denominations? Here's a comparison of relevant verses:

Wisdom of Solomon 5:17 - 20

The Lord will take his zeal as his whole armor,
and will arm all creation to repel his enemies;
he will put on righteousness as a breastplate,
and wear impartial justice as a helmet;
he will take holiness as an invincible shield
and sharpen stern wrath as a sword.

Ephesians 6:13a, 14 - 17:

Therefore take the whole armor of God . . . . Stand, therefore having girded your loins with truth, and havine put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation , and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Yes I'm saying once you are saved you enter the war zone more because Satan doesn't like knowing he can't take you to hell with him anymore so he comes against you even harder than ever. Unsaved people do not seem to struggle like we do as Christians and I believe it's because Satan does everything he can to discredit the testimony of a believer. Satan can't steal our salvation, but he does everything he can to make our lives harder because he is furious. You would think he would get tired of accusing us day and night but he must get off on it or something.

I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do so I find peace in knowing God is in control of my life. No matter what this world throws at me, God is for me not against me.

[kurious_kathy]

Really? There are numerous documented cases of people who were somehow never exposed to the Christian religion having an experience with Jesus?

Links please.

If you were in the church or fellowship with believers (like I am) you would meet people and hear these types of testimonies all the time. I could try to get a list of some together for you but if you are truly seeking this info you could discover them yourself as God's people are everywhere, and Jesus isn't hiding!

The first one I am thinking of is Ravi Zacharias. Have you heard of this man? He was suicidal when Jesus intervened in his life and save him. If you want to find him Ravi is easy to find as he has been traveling the globe sharing Christ with others ever since he got saved. His backround was he was raised in India in a different religion prior to his conversion to Christianity. Check out RZIM ministry if you want more info on his life and testimony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjf5PaS7-SQ

How about Lee Strobels testimony? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

How about this one about a Messianic Rabbi who accepted Jesus? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZP0UPoFVo

How about another one here of an ex devout Muslim who becomes a Christian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88KtXJsmkI

Here's another one I found of a Ex-Hindu's testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbToQCbZOOo&feature=PlayList&p=1F8FC0B849A9AA7D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

[Lucian]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

But he only saves women parenthetically.

[joobz]

I became a Christian because God saved me.
But you said that you had to believe first? So, God didn't save you, you simply believed he saved you.

It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?
But you said that you had to first believe in order to believe. Now you are saying some people are just saved without believing and then they start to beleive?

Why does god make such random selections of who is or is not worthy of saying? Why is your version of god so inconsistent?

[Cavemonster]

If you were in the church or fellowship with believers (like I am) you would meet people and hear these types of testimonies all the time. I could try to get a list of some together for you but if you are truly seeking this info you could discover them yourself as God's people are everywhere, and Jesus isn't hiding!

The first one I am thinking of is Ravi Zacharias. Have you heard of this man? He was suicidal when Jesus intervened in his life and save him. If you want to find him Ravi is easy to find as he has been traveling the globe sharing Christ with others ever since he got saved. His backround was he was raised in India in a different religion prior to his conversion to Christianity. Check out RZIM ministry if you want more info on his life and testimony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjf5PaS7-SQ

How about Lee Strobels testimony? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

How about this one about a Messianic Rabbi who accepted Jesus? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZP0UPoFVo

How about another one here of an ex devout Muslim who becomes a Christian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88KtXJsmkI

Here's another one I found of a Ex-Hindu's testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbToQCbZOOo&feature=PlayList&p=1F8FC0B849A9AA7D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

No, I didn't ask if any people had ever converted, of course people have converted.

I asked, if Jesus and God exist as entities separate from the human culture and religion, and texts, has anyone been saved by Jesus directly, without other humans telling them about Jesus.

In the two thousand years of Christianity, if Jesus actually acts independantly of Christian culture being spread, surely there is some record of someone in a small village that had never heard of the bible being directly converted by Jesus. right?

[Foster Zygote]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?
I met a guy who was killing himself with drugs and alcohol but has been sober for nine years because he discovered Islam. He now has a good job, a loving wife and a couple of adorable children. How do you explain that?

[Lrrr]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

And you still didn't address the points even though you quoted them. You just spouted more Vogon poetry.

[Lrrr]

Yes I'm saying once you are saved you enter the war zone more because Satan doesn't like knowing he can't take you to hell with him anymore so he comes against you even harder than ever. Unsaved people do not seem to struggle like we do as Christians and I believe it's because Satan does everything he can to discredit the testimony of a believer. Satan can't steal our salvation, but he does everything he can to make our lives harder because he is furious. You would think he would get tired of accusing us day and night but he must get off on it or something.

I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do so I find peace in knowing God is in control of my life. No matter what this world throws at me, God is for me not against me.

So why doesn't God just smite Satan and be done with it? Is it because without Satan, God doesn't have a fall guy/scapegoat to push people toward him? Without Satan, who would do all the evil in the world?

[TimCallahan]

Yes I'm saying once you are saved you enter the war zone more because Satan doesn't like knowing he can't take you to hell with him anymore so he comes against you even harder than ever. Unsaved people do not seem to struggle like we do as Christians and I believe it's because Satan does everything he can to discredit the testimony of a believer. Satan can't steal our salvation, but he does everything he can to make our lives harder because he is furious. You would think he would get tired of accusing us day and night but he must get off on it or something.

I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do so I find peace in knowing God is in control of my life. No matter what this world throws at me, God is for me not against me.

I pretty much knew that this would be your answer, since I've heard it before, but I wanted to be sure. So, let's look at the logic of your argument. If you belive in God and Jesus, you suffer for it. In your words, you enter a war zone. However, God could, but does not, stop this. Your words are: "I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do . . . ."

Frankly, any parent who allowed some fiend to torment their child, or any teacher who allowed a otrmentor to attack the children in his or her charge, would face criminal prosecution and would hadf the children in question taken from them. Yet you say God lets Satan torment his believers, up to a point.

Another flaw in your argument is this: I know a number of Christians - those who walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk - who are not involved in any of this demonic attack nonsense. So, given what you assert about believers entering a "war zone," are you saying these people aren't really Christians?

[kurious_kathy]

So why doesn't God just smite Satan and be done with it? Is it because without Satan, God doesn't have a fall guy/scapegoat to push people toward him? Without Satan, who would do all the evil in the world?

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil. Don't you think God uses Satan to show us what we do not want to turn into?

[joobz]

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil.
No. We just need god for that.


Isaiah 45:6-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"