Coke Machine Ethics

[Marquis de Carabas]

The situation: You approach a Coke machine which charges $1.25 for a 20-oz. bottle of various soft drinks. You deposit five quarters which all drop straight into the coin return slot. As you reach down to collect your quarters and ponder whether to try a different form a payment, move to a different machine, or just try again, you happen to notice that the machine registered the money as well as returning it. You hit a button for your desired beverage, and it is delivered to you, slightly shaken, but none the worse for wear. You have your money and a drink.

Now, so far, I think it's pretty clear you've done nothing dubious. You could, I suppose, walk away leaving either the money or the beverage. In the former case, someone else will just take the money; in the latter, someone else will score the beverage. There is no way to prevent somebody getting something for nothing.

But the question is now, knowing that the machine will do this, is it unethical to continue pumping the same quarter through the machine again and again to acquire a stockpile of Cokes?

And, regardless of how you feel about the ethics of the situation, would you do it?

[Ysidro]

I posted "unethical but do it anyways" but I'm starting to think it's not unethical. Mainly because the company knows the machines can fail and accept a certain level of failure. This is different from shoplifting as it was not your intention to "steal" anything.

That said, I'd still do it.

[tkingdoll]

Yes, I think it's unethical to continue to take advantage. There are numbers on such machines in the event of breakdown, you could call and report the fault, or leave it (the latter being ethically neutral, the former being ethically..er..proactive). In the meantime other people may take advantage but that's their ethical dilemma and also an affordable risk for the machine operators (assuming that such malfunctions are rare and the machine doesn't have an endless supply of Coke).

I wouldn't do it, I don't draw a line between who it's fair to take advantage of and who it isn't (if my colleague leaves her purse unattended I don't help myself to her money just because she made a mistake). I certainly don't draw that line based on who has more money than me. I have done such things in the past, though (not the purse, the Coke machine scenario) and I don't think I'm a bad person for it. My ethics have changed as I've aged and also since I started my own business, interestingly.

Ysidro, the first bottle is not intentional theft but any subsequent bottles are. They've effectively left the door open and you've gone in and helped yourself, despite knowing that is not the intended contract.

[Aitch]

I have had something like this happen - I got a twofer. Not with a Coke machine - disgusting stuff, makes my teeth itch.

However, as the machine had ripped me off in the past, I didn't feel bad about it. ;)

[Denver]

I think there should be another option for "It's a little unethical to take the freebie, but a lot unethical to do it more than once."

Let's say you owned the franchise for that coke machine. How would you feel if someone took advantage of you because the machine malfunctioned, and took all the cokes? If you think that would be wrong, or that you have been wronged, than it would be called unethical for you to do it to the machine yourself.

[RoboTimbo]

Retailers also account for some shrinkage in their pricing but I still don't shoplift either. I voted that it is unethical and I wouldn't do it. I would even feel bad about taking the first one.

[Hokulele]

Unethical, as it prevents the next person from getting a free beverage.

That whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" bit.

[Marquis de Carabas]

This is different from shoplifting as it was not your intention to "steal" anything.
Well, on the first Coke, sure. The deposit of the five quarters indicates a willingness to pay for the beverage acquired. But subsequent "purchases" seem to me almost entirely indistinguishable from shoplifting. The intent of continuing once the issue is known is clearly to obtain product you have not paid for.

[MarekM]

From a utilitarian point of view, it might be okay if the good brought about by receiving a large amount of free Cokes outweighed the good that would have been brought about by Coke's profiting on the purchases.

Since I don't much care for Coke, I probably wouldn't take advantage, but someone else might, and in that situation, I think it depends on a number of factors. In most cases, I don't think it would be unethical.

[Professor Yaffle]

What if it is money rather than cokes?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/21/cash-machine-theft-essex

[fuelair]

I marked unethical and would because in the ancient past (mid sixties) i did once though it was 10 ozers and a quarter. Now, I would call.

(There were extenuating circumstances, but.....)

[slingblade]

I take the money and the Coke and I try to find someone to tell them the machine is broken.

Now, usually, even if there is someone around to report the malfunction to, they don't own the machine. But at a place like a grocery store, for instance, I'll try to hand the money to the person at the customer service counter, anyway. I'll try to pay for the Coke.

I will not pump the quarters back through to get more. And I'll feel slightly guilty for getting the one for free as it is, unless I can hand my money to someone in charge.

What they do with my quarters is their business. And their ethics.

[Cainkane1]

This happened to me. I put my money in the machine and he whole column of flavored water came out. I kept my bottle and I called the vending machine operator. They didn't lose a single drink to me. I'm not perfect but I ain't all bad either.

[theprestige]

I recently bought an expensive camera and various accessories. I didn't bother to review the invoice before authorizing the credit card payment. When I got home, my wife looked over the receipt and noticed that we hadn't been charged for the camera itself--several hundred dollars, more than 80% of the total purchase price.

So we went back to the store and paid for the camera.

[HarryKeogh]

I wouldn't keep doing it as stealing soda is wrong.

Now if I passed by one of those vending machines at the airport that sell iPods and digital cameras and it happened to be dropping merchandise for free...

just kidding! I'd totally tell security (so they can get a free iPod).

and in all seriousness...I don't see how anyone can say it is not unethical to keep pumping money into a broken machine to get free stuff (even if it's just a lousy Coke).

[Safe-Keeper]

The money I save doing this - the money I have wasted on vending machines refusing to give me beverages = Something pretty close to zero:D. Seriously, I see nothing wrong with getting some compensation.

Still voted unethical, for some reason that seems strange to me now.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I'm interested in the four of us* who voted it unethical but indicated they would do it anyway. What is it about the situation that makes one say, "Yep, it's wrong, but screw it"? Is it the relatively tiny amount of money involved? If there was, say, a literary vending machine that dispensed $20 books and an analagous situation occurred, would you still take advantage?

*I say us because I did it yesterday.

[Lonewulf]

Unethical, wouldn't do it, would call the number. Or, being lazy and hating to call people (especially if it's a machine), get someone else to do it for me.

While I could say, "They malfunctioned and didn't give me my cash before", I could've called the number then as well.

[I Ratant]

I'd take the money and the drink, but not pump out more for which I would have no use at the time.
On some situations like this I have tried to bring the attention of the cognizant authorities to become aware that the machine is faulty, but most of the time the proper persons aren't available.
,
Now, back in collitch, when the phone company guy would leave the coin box out of a phone in the dorm, that phone would get used a LOT, using the same quarter. Some really long distance calls, to South America.
I didn't do that.

[Hokulele]

I'm interested in the four of us* who voted it unethical but indicated they would do it anyway. What is it about the situation that makes one say, "Yep, it's wrong, but screw it"? Is it the relatively tiny amount of money involved? If there was, say, a literary vending machine that dispensed $20 books and an analagous situation occurred, would you still take advantage?

*I say us because I did it yesterday.


I voted Planet X, but I am one of those loathsome moral relativists. I can easily think of situations where I would do this, but there are probably more situations where I wouldn't. I hate those "always right, always wrong" types of questions.

[HarryKeogh]

I hate those "always right, always wrong" types of questions.

Me too. In fact, I never think it's okay to even ask them.

[Piscivore]

I don't drink soda anymore, but say it was water. I'd take the first one, get a second for later, then inform the company their machine was malfunctioning.

I figure it is unethical to rob the machine of everything you can get, but it's also unethical to me to not take some advantage when the rare opportunity presents itself.

[Lonewulf]

I voted Planet X, but I am one of those loathsome moral relativists. I can easily think of situations where I would do this, but there are probably more situations where I wouldn't. I hate those "always right, always wrong" types of questions.

I just go with the average.

If I would only do it in extreme circumstances, then why automatically assume that it's an extreme circumstance?

Exception:

If the question is, "Is it EVER okay to...?", then it's different. That's automatically thinking extreme circumstances, just by putting "ever" in the question.

[Hokulele]

I just go with the average.

If I would only do it in extreme circumstances, then why automatically assume that it's an extreme circumstance?


The average of the hypotheticals, or the average of what I have done in the real world? Since I am not that fond of soda, my real world average is pretty unethical as I must already be desperate to be drinking a Coke. ;)

[Marquis de Carabas]

I voted Planet X, but I am one of those loathsome moral relativists. I can easily think of situations where I would do this, but there are probably more situations where I wouldn't. I hate those "always right, always wrong" types of questions.
I didn't intend this to be one of those type of questions. I'm a loathsome relativist myself. Sure, there are circumstances that might exist that would make me change my opinion that this was unethical, but they are rare, so by calling it unethical, I'm just playing the percentages. (Plus, as I said, I did this yesterday, and, at least for that iteration, know all the prevailing circumstances, none of which I would call justification.)

[Hokulele]

I didn't intend this to be one of those type of questions. I'm a loathsome relativist myself. Sure, there are circumstances that might exist that would make me change my opinion that this was unethical, but they are rare, so by calling it unethical, I'm just playing the percentages. (Plus, as I said, I did this yesterday, and, at least for that iteration, know all the prevailing circumstances, none of which I would call justification.)


In that case, in the spirit of playing the game, I would call it unethical but I would be likely to do it anyways, although just one or two, as carrying a buttload of warm Coke around all day would get annoying. I would call it unethical for the reasons listed by others above. I would do it because I can live with minor blemishes on my conscience. I wouldn't advertise the fact that the machine was broken to other people, would possibly contact the owner, and I wouldn't judge the next person who decided to take the freebie.

The reason I use the term minor blemish is because I tend to evaluate how much harm my actions may cause to another when deciding what actions to take. Yeah, loathsome, I know.

Now if this were Japan and the vending machine dispensed beer...

[Marquis de Carabas]

In that case, in the spirit of playing the game, I would call it unethical but I would be likely to do it anyways, although just one or two, as carrying a buttload of warm Coke around all day would get annoying.
Well, I had easy access to a refrigerator.

[Hokulele]

Well, I had easy access to a refrigerator.


Who did you steal that from?

[Basilio]

I voted "unethical but take", and likewise would not keep doing it to rob them. But, and there is alway the hedging "but", while Im being charged $1.25 for a bottle, it is the principle that they are making over 100% profit on what it costs them to produce it that tends to egg me on to make the most of the free bottle.

[sphenisc]

Go to car, get crowbar, lever open the machine, replace bottle.

a) Have ethically not stolen item.
b) Have provided incentive for company to ensure their machines work properly in future.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Who did you steal that from?
The taxpayers of the state of Texas. It's part of my grand socialist plot.

[Hokulele]

No wonder they want to secede.

[tkingdoll]

Ah, I forgot the "how many times has that machine stiffed you" factor. In that case, I would take Coke equivalent to the number of times the machine had eaten my money. In offices where I've worked, each machine would probably owe me two Cokes or Snickers a year on that basis. It's only fair if you are taking from the same machine/operator who stiffed you though.

In a perfect world where the machine only malfunctions in my favour, though, my original post stands.

Uh oh - I just realised I have to give back all the Monopoly money I won thanks to "Bank error in your favour, collect £200".

[NotJesus]

I had a friend in high school who lost some money in a Coke machine. He gave the machine a kick and the door popped right open. Free Cokes for everyone! It was unethical but we were young and poor.

As for now -- I wouldn't cheat the machine to get a stockpile. It's not that I'm so darned ethical; I just don't drink Coke very often.

[slingblade]

A handful of years ago, when I was in college, Coke ran a prize campaign: a certain number of sodas in all the machines had a coupon for a free lift ticket to Powderhorn, the nearby ski area.

We had Coke machines all over campus, but only one of the new transparent variety, where you could see all the sodas and watch them drop when you bought one.

And I happened, one day, to notice that there were two sodas in there, with lift tickets on them, ready to drop. One in front, and one two sodas back.

I bought all four. Then I sold the lift tickets for $50 each.

Not a bad day at all, though I was accused of cheating to get both cokes. But...how is it cheating? I had enough money to buy 4 sodas, and I could easily see the ones I wanted. My timing and my available funds just happened to jibe.

I never thought what I did was "cheating" in any sense. Do you?

[El Greco]

It is unethical and I wouldn't do it.

But those two are unrelated. I wouldn't do it not because it's unethical but because I'm not cheap. Had the machine been spitting out Ferraris, I'd grab as many as I could without thinking about it twice.

[Ysidro]

Well, on the first Coke, sure. The deposit of the five quarters indicates a willingness to pay for the beverage acquired. But subsequent "purchases" seem to me almost entirely indistinguishable from shoplifting. The intent of continuing once the issue is known is clearly to obtain product you have not paid for.

True, I didn't read closely. Continuing to do it would be taking advantage of company and their machine.

I'm going to blame MdC for not paying attention.

No wait.... Dammit! :boxedin:

[HarryKeogh]

A handful of years ago, when I was in college, Coke ran a prize campaign: a certain number of sodas in all the machines had a coupon for a free lift ticket to Powderhorn, the nearby ski area.

We had Coke machines all over campus, but only one of the new transparent variety, where you could see all the sodas and watch them drop when you bought one.

And I happened, one day, to notice that there were two sodas in there, with lift tickets on them, ready to drop. One in front, and one two sodas back.

I bought all four. Then I sold the lift tickets for $50 each.

Not a bad day at all, though I was accused of cheating to get both cokes. But...how is it cheating? I had enough money to buy 4 sodas, and I could easily see the ones I wanted. My timing and my available funds just happened to jibe.

I never thought what I did was "cheating" in any sense. Do you?

I don't think so. It's not like you had to go out of your way.

My slightly similiar story is also soda related. Pepsi was giving away codes for iTunes music. The code was on the bottle cap. It was either a code or "sorry, try again" message. If you tilted the bottle just right you could make out the message. I collected about a dozen codes. Was I cheating?

Anyway, now I just use The Pirate Bay so I would never have to face that ethical dilemma again.

[Soapy Sam]

People really drink this stuff?

[Bob Blaylock]

The situation: You approach a Coke machine which charges $1.25 for a 20-oz. bottle of various soft drinks. You deposit five quarters which all drop straight into the coin return slot. As you reach down to collect your quarters and ponder whether to try a different form a payment, move to a different machine, or just try again, you happen to notice that the machine registered the money as well as returning it. You hit a button for your desired beverage, and it is delivered to you, slightly shaken, but none the worse for wear. You have your money and a drink.

Now, so far, I think it's pretty clear you've done nothing dubious. You could, I suppose, walk away leaving either the money or the beverage. In the former case, someone else will just take the money; in the latter, someone else will score the beverage. There is no way to prevent somebody getting something for nothing.

But the question is now, knowing that the machine will do this, is it unethical to continue pumping the same quarter through the machine again and again to acquire a stockpile of Cokes


Up to the point of taking the first Coke, and my money back, I'm OK. I wanted to buy a Coke, and the machine tried to sell it to me, but malfunctioned and failed to take my money. At some very high-level of ethics, the right thing to do would be to contact the company responsible for the machine, and make arrangements to pay for the Coke, but the price of a Coke just isn't worth that much trouble. (No, I don't usually bother to contact a company to ask for a refund when a vending machine malfunctions the other way, either, for the same reason.)


If, later on, I was thirsty again, and that machine were still malfunctioning, I would still attempt to buy another Coke, and if the machine still failed to keep my money, same thing. Perhaps it's slightly less ethical now, if I go to the machine knowing that it is going to malfunction in my favor, but I still am thirsty, and I still want that Coke, and I figure it's the machine's responsibility to make that Coke available to me. My intent isn't to steal from the machine, it's to obtain, in the most ethical manner that is immediately available to me, the product that I need. If the machine was working, I'd gladly pay for the Coke; it's not my fault nor responsibility that the machine is failing to take my payment.


The last paragraph is different. Here, the intent isn't to obtain a product to satisfy an immediate need; it is to obtain more product that one needs, to stockpile it for later, specifically because right now one can get it without paying for it, and thus avoid having to pay for it when one obtains it later. This is clearly, in both intent and effect, stealing.


I guess the difference is in whether one's intent is to obtain the product that the machine is supposed to be selling, or whether one's intent is to avoid paying for the product.

[El Greco]

People really drink this stuff?

If they can get it for free, they sure do.

[X]

Been there, done that.
It was a snack machine, actually.

In my defense, I tried to pay...

[Wowbagger]

If the vending machine was running Windows* , it would almost be their fault for making the machine so needlessly complicated.

This could go for some editions of Linux* as well: It's not always so perfect for running vending machines, either, you know!

(*Don't laugh. I've seen it.)

But, even as such, I think it would still be unethical. It is not fair to take advantage of brain-damaged people.

[Brendy]

This happened to me at my dorm when i was in college. However, the situation was slighty different.

I think the price for a can was 1 dollar or 75 cents, not sure. So I went to the machine and put in my 75 cents. I got my soda and I noticed the machine spit out 70 cents as well. Now I look at the little electronic sign displaying the price, and it said .05 .

The vendor guy must have put the price in wrong. But this wasn't a new machine so I don't know why he would change it.

My friends and I in the dorm ended up buying every single soda in the machine for 5 cents each and would give them to anyone on our floor for free if they wanted some.

Personally I don't think this was unethical because the machine clearly advertised a price of 5 cents. You can't put a sign that says something is 5 cents then charge me more.

About two weeks later, the machine was filled and the the price was back to normal.

They prolly made a million bucks a year with that machine in the dorms, so I'm not worried about going to hell.

[NobbyNobbs]

This happened to me at my dorm when i was in college. However, the situation was slighty different.

I think the price for a can was 1 dollar or 75 cents, not sure. So I went to the machine and put in my 75 cents. I got my soda and I noticed the machine spit out 70 cents as well. Now I look at the little electronic sign displaying the price, and it said .05 .

The vendor guy must have put the price in wrong. But this wasn't a new machine so I don't know why he would change it.

My friends and I in the dorm ended up buying every single soda in the machine for 5 cents each and would give them to anyone on our floor for free if they wanted some.

Personally I don't think this was unethical because the machine clearly advertised a price of 5 cents. You can't put a sign that says something is 5 cents then charge me more.

About two weeks later, the machine was filled and the the price was back to normal.

They prolly made a million bucks a year with that machine in the dorms, so I'm not worried about going to hell.


I had almost the same thing happen in college, but we went one step further.

The sodas cost 75 cents, the machine sold them to us for 5 cents, we bought them all....and then sold them to anyone we could find for 50 cents.

[six7s]

Unethical, as it prevents the next person from getting a free beverage.

That whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" bit.The owner/lease-holder/whatever of the vending machine is a neighbour, too

[Holler Hoojer]

It's unethical (it's not scattered money as in a parking lot - it's clear who this belongs to) and I wouldn't do it. It has nothing to do with machines ripping me off or nobody caring or a certain expectation; I'd lose respect for myself if I stole. Or, at least money. A comely wench might be another story, except I never get them out of vending machines.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Please, no one mention whether this relates to stealing software.

~~ Paul

[Robin]

The situation: You approach a Coke machine which charges $1.25 for a 20-oz. bottle of various soft drinks. You deposit five quarters which all drop straight into the coin return slot. As you reach down to collect your quarters and ponder whether to try a different form a payment, move to a different machine, or just try again, you happen to notice that the machine registered the money as well as returning it. You hit a button for your desired beverage, and it is delivered to you, slightly shaken, but none the worse for wear. You have your money and a drink.

Now, so far, I think it's pretty clear you've done nothing dubious. You could, I suppose, walk away leaving either the money or the beverage. In the former case, someone else will just take the money; in the latter, someone else will score the beverage. There is no way to prevent somebody getting something for nothing.

But the question is now, knowing that the machine will do this, is it unethical to continue pumping the same quarter through the machine again and again to acquire a stockpile of Cokes?

And, regardless of how you feel about the ethics of the situation, would you do it?

No, I wouldn't do it. I only wish that the Coca Cola company displayed the same ethics about my money as I do about theirs.

[phantomb]

What if instead of a machine, it was a really dopey kid who Coke has hired to sell drinks for $1.25?

You hand the kid five quarters which he hands back to you saying he can't take them. As you reach over to collect your quarters and ponder whether to try a different form of payment, move to a different drink stand, or just try again, the kid asks you what drink you want. You tell the kid what you want, and he picks the drink out and hands it to you. You have your money and a drink.

Is this an analogous situation? How far should a customer be expected to go to ensure that they are not taking advantage of anybody? If, for example, an employee of a store offers you a deal because you're a good customer, is it unethical to take that deal without first checking with the owners to see if the employee is allowed to offer it?

[Roadtoad]

Unethical. Wouldn't do it.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't be tempted, though.

[Beth]

Interesting. I don't consider it unethical, though I would be unlikely to take advantage of it past the initial drink. Mainly because I don't like soda pop. I don't know why I don't consider it unethical. Partly because the malfunctioning machine is their responsibility, not mine. Partly because I've lost so much money in vending machines over the years. It seems more like a way to even the score than an underhanded taking of something that doesn't belong to me. Cleaning out an entire soda machine, which would be immensely impractical, would still leave the machines ahead.

It's an interesting question anyway. Thanks for asking.

[Lonewulf]

The average of the hypotheticals, or the average of what I have done in the real world? Since I am not that fond of soda, my real world average is pretty unethical as I must already be desperate to be drinking a Coke. ;)

Substitute *Drink you like* with Coke, then. :)

As that's not the point of the hypothetical.

[fullflavormenthol]

Here is my issue. I love Coke, and so I buy tons of the crsp from vending machines. Over the course of a decade I estimate I have donated a couple of hundred dollars to Coca-Cola and their independent bottlers through machine failure. Either from machines that don't register that I put money in, or my favorite; the coke that you here drop, but doesn't come out.

So from a Pepsi machine I would be ethical about it, but from a Coke machine I believe I have earned it...they owe me....you HEAR ME?!?! THEY.....OWE.....ME!!!!!! (I'm just being melodramatic for effect ;) ) It depends how recent my last time getting ripped off was to give you an honest answer.

[Robin]

Here is my issue. I love Coke, and so I buy tons of the crsp from vending machines. Over the course of a decade I estimate I have donated a couple of hundred dollars to Coca-Cola and their independent bottlers through machine failure. Either from machines that don't register that I put money in, or my favorite; the coke that you here drop, but doesn't come out.
My favourite part is the sticker on the side with the telephone number of an unattended answering machine. You can waste more money by making a call and leaving a message that is never returned.

I often wonder if the Coca Cola accounts have a code for this income.

[slingblade]

Cocapital.

Donation.

"Dewd, boh-nusss!"

[Piscivore]

What if instead of a machine, it was a really dopey kid who Coke has hired to sell drinks for $1.25?

You hand the kid five quarters which he hands back to you saying he can't take them. As you reach over to collect your quarters and ponder whether to try a different form of payment, move to a different drink stand, or just try again, the kid asks you what drink you want. You tell the kid what you want, and he picks the drink out and hands it to you. You have your money and a drink.

Is this an analogous situation? How far should a customer be expected to go to ensure that they are not taking advantage of anybody? If, for example, an employee of a store offers you a deal because you're a good customer, is it unethical to take that deal without first checking with the owners to see if the employee is allowed to offer it?

I will always give back incorrect change in my favour if it came from a human. Had this happen in a bookstore not long ago, as a matter of fact. Gave the guy a ten, got change for a twenty.

[Hokulele]

I will always give back incorrect change in my favour if it came from a human. Had this happen in a bookstore not long ago, as a matter of fact. Gave the guy a ten, got change for a twenty.


Well, the main difference here is that the person can acknowledge the mistake (whether in my favor or not) and may take that into account with better service, personal greeting, etc., the next time I visit their shop.

The Coke machine/machine owner, not so much.

Selfish? Maybe, but most social interactions tend to work that way.

[X]

It's unethical (it's not scattered money as in a parking lot - it's clear who this belongs to) and I wouldn't do it. It has nothing to do with machines ripping me off or nobody caring or a certain expectation; I'd lose respect for myself if I stole. Or, at least money. A comely wench might be another story, except I never get them out of vending machines.


So...
If you put money into a machine, received a drink, and the money came back out, you would try to put said drink back in the machine?

Taking advantage of the situation is, I agree, immoral.
But taking the drink that came out? It can't be put back.

[MIKILLINI]

This situation presented itself to me before and I did take the soda. What I did next was write a note that read "Out Of Order" and taped it over the coin slot.
The vendor returned the following day, so after I explained to him what happened, he thanked me for being honest and wouldn't accept the money. He said the soda was on him.

[Alkatran]

I would get an extra coke for free (the first time), then move on.

I think it's a programmer thing. I design systems with the understanding that people may try to attack them. When a flaw is found, I'm responsible and I try to fix it. So when I find something that has a flaw, I want to see if it works, see how it works, understand why it works and how it could be stopped.

Of course, there is a line. You don't want to cause any non-negligible damage (so don't repeatedly exploit things, don't exploit big targets like ATMs, etc).

I guess I'm the sort of person who would write a vote bot for youtube, see if it works, then not use it. (Their voting system is clearly flawed. They clearly didn't design for evil [ http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001123.html ].).

[SezMe]

If the vending machine was running Windows* , it would almost be their fault for making the machine so needlessly complicated.

...
(*Don't laugh. I've seen it.)
If it's not too much thread drift, I'd sure like to hear more about a Windows-based vending machine. How did you know? Did it use some kind of visual interface that allowed you to see a windows icon? What was it selling? Did you try a three-fingered salute?

[porch]

I don't really understand ethical codes. For me it has more to do with empathy in any given situation. In this case, I'm just not feeling it. If I knew I could get away with it . . .

<--- Straight up gangster. Planet X voter.

[Lucian]

It's unethical (it's not scattered money as in a parking lot - it's clear who this belongs to) and I wouldn't do it. It has nothing to do with machines ripping me off or nobody caring or a certain expectation; I'd lose respect for myself if I stole. Or, at least money. A comely wench might be another story, except I never get them out of vending machines.
What, no WenchMatics in your neck of the woods?

[volatile]

What if it is money rather than cokes?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/21/cash-machine-theft-essex

That came to my mind, too!

[ZirconBlue]

It's unethical, but I'd do it anyway. 'Cause I'm a hypocrite. I want everyone else to be ethical, but for me -- Hey! Free Stuff!

And succumbing to temptation is what I do best!

[Piscivore]

Well, the main difference here is that the person can acknowledge the mistake (whether in my favor or not) and may take that into account with better service, personal greeting, etc., the next time I visit their shop.

The Coke machine/machine owner, not so much.

Selfish? Maybe, but most social interactions tend to work that way.

Exactly. And beyond just that bringing the mistake to a human's attention gives them an opportunity to change, learn, and correct the behavior. Machines can't do that.

This situation presented itself to me before and I did take the soda. What I did next was write a note that read "Out Of Order" and taped it over the coin slot.

Oh, that's a good idea, I'd do that.

I'd still take a second beverage, though.

[Ikarus]

In all honesty, I'd treat myself and my friends to a round of free beverages.

Which is double unethical, for I force my friends into accomplice-hood-ity.

[Zax63]

I voted unethical but I'd do it anyway. If I was alone I would probably take a 2nd one as much to prove the machine broken as any interest in free soda. If I was with another person or 2 I might take up to 4. I don't think I would go any higher than that. Not at all ethical but that's probably what I would do.

This would make a good candid camera bit / psychology experiment. Have a fake machine, maybe fed manually from a building behind it, that can dispense hundreds of cans and see how many people will take given an unlimited supply of "free" soda. When the person starts to leave have a soda company van pull up and confront them about the "stolen" soda.

[Holler Hoojer]

So...
If you put money into a machine, received a drink, and the money came back out, you would try to put said drink back in the machine?

Taking advantage of the situation is, I agree, immoral.
But taking the drink that came out? It can't be put back.
No, I would do what I always do - leave the money in the slot.

[Tanstaafl]

Unethical and wouldn't do it.

Reminds me of the time my brother sat down at a slot machine in a casino. He put in a dollar, pulled the arm, got five or ten bucks back. Another dollar, another win, same amount. And the next time, and the next. He kept going until his wife finally succeeded in dragging him away. A guy who had been watching ran over and played it as fast as he could, but within a minute the casino staff swooped in and took the machine out of service. Not sure if the other guy got to keep his winnings, but my brother got away with his.

[Kernel Hapablap]

Near my city, there was a casino incident where the bank machine was dispensing 20s instead of 5s. They tracked down and arrested people WHO WENT BACK. Not just unethical, but against the law.

Its unethical, but, in the case of the coke machine, I would do it anyway. Why? Partly because I pretend to be a secular humanist when I'm really a closet nihilist, and partly because I wouldn't believe that I would be caught.

[SophieHirschfeld]

I'm going to post a story that relates to this topic, but I'll leave you all to decide if it is ethical or unethical or even how it relates.

When I was a kid, back in the 80s, my family was really poor. Times of extreme need were not foreign and the results of said need were apparent in our day to day lives. As children, we were keenly aware of our class as compared to our peers not only because our peers were rather skilled at informing us of our differences but also because of our parents encouraging us to try and make matters better. Things got so bad that for a while, my mother would encourage us to pick up pop cans and bottles and alcoholic beverage bottles whenever we found them. We even went on soda bottle runs on the backroads near our house where we would walk or ride bicycles or sometimes go in the car in search of cans to collect. The early part of the week, Sundays and Mondays were best, since Friday and Saturday nights were the richest part of the life of the town's outskirts and rednecks and college kids alike would find areas they thought others wouldn't know about (and the police would avoid) in order to marinate themselves in alcohol and make a lot of noise, all in the name of a good party. The remains of their adventures, found in large piles on the side of the road in nearly the same places every week, were frequently the funds for our next meal.

That's not what this post is really about, it is just a backdrop to another story that adds to the gray area of the issue at hand. During this time that we were often so desperate, there was a night where despite all our efforts, we failed to acquire enough money to supplement our meal that night. We had some macaroni and some hot dogs, but the meal was insufficient for a family of at least nine (five children and four adults). My mother, who was diabetic, decided that evening that she would not eat dinner with us. She prepared the meal that we had and got us all settled to dinner and she left for the store.

Later on, she would tell us her story of what happened there, a paraphrase of which follows. The store that she went to was very good about setting up nice displays of samples for people to munch on before they decide to make certain purchases. There was about ten of these throughout the store and they were often samples of very nice foods: Crackers, cheeses, lunch meats and even warm foods like barbecued meats and pizza. My mother wandered around the store for some time on a path that allowed her to pass by each "try me" stand in the store without crossing her path until she returned to the beginning of the route. This was her meal for the night and it probably seemed quite clever at the time.

However, the manager of the store was there at that time as well and had noticed what my mother was doing. He stopped her in the store and explained to her that there weren't any significant consequences that he could give her for her actions but that he could just ban her from the store. Right at the moment that the manager was chastising her, a person in a nearby isle had spilled a bag of birdseed.

Perhaps I should take a break to explain something. My mother was a highly religious person. She believed very much in her moral stance on things and that included concepts such as 'it is wrong to lie' and 'thou shalt not steal.' She knew that she was doing something that wasn't right when she did that, but it was an act out of desperation. She was hungry and there was no food for her.

Upon seeing the spilled birdseed, my mother made an offer to the manager because she didn't want to be banned from the store. She offered to clean up the spill in compensation for the samples of food that she took. I'm unsure if the manager intuitively knew that my mother was in a tough situation or if my mother told him, but he agreed to her offer nonetheless and told her where to get a broom. After having ensured that all the birdseed was swept up (even from under the shelving), my mother went back to the manager to let him know she had finished. The manager was obviously feeling particularly kind that day because he told my mother that she would not be banned from the store and he sent her home with $5.

[jasonpatterson]

Taking the extra Coke would be no different than taking produce from an unattended farm stand (the kind with a cash box and an honor system.) That said, I did it when I was a kid with glee. I found out that if I hit the red pop button on a particular gas station's machine at just the right frequency it would pump out can after can for only a quarter. These days, I wouldn't unless perhaps I could recall a specific instance in which that vendor's machine had taken my money. I can imagine myself balancing the account, so to speak. (They seem to steal your money an awful lot more than they give you a free pop...)

[Cavemonster]

Unethical and wouldn't do it.

Reminds me of the time my brother sat down at a slot machine in a casino. He put in a dollar, pulled the arm, got five or ten bucks back. Another dollar, another win, same amount. And the next time, and the next. He kept going until his wife finally succeeded in dragging him away. A guy who had been watching ran over and played it as fast as he could, but within a minute the casino staff swooped in and took the machine out of service. Not sure if the other guy got to keep his winnings, but my brother got away with his.

For me for some reason, I can respect taking advantage of a casino.
They spend huge amounts of money on sound and environmental design to make you forget time is passing and to fight the players tendencies to make rational decisions.

In my opinion, they go beyond advertising. Sure Coke manipulates people into associating their drink with sex, but they're not trying to brainwash people into drinking gallons for hours on end. And they're only exploiting a minor addiction, caffeine, as opposed to a potentially more life ruining addiction, gambling.

[Alareth]

This reminds me of the first time I put a quarter in a newspaper machine and discovered that if I wanted, I could have a whole stack of newspapers ...

[SphereGuy]

When I was stationed at RAF Bentwaters it was discovered that a Motorola radio, when placed near the opening of where the Coke came out would and when keyed, caused the machine to dispense a Coke and 55 cents change. After a while word spread because these machines were all over base and everyone carried a Motorola radio. The Coke vendor reported something was wrong when his machines started turning up empty with no money in them and after an investigation it was finally discovered why. Before the whole scandal was over at least 30 people were discharged and hundreds were reprimanded including loss of grade. Some for just not reporting that this was going on even though they didn't do anything themselves. It was theft, plain and simple.

There have been cases where gas stations put in the wrong amount and suddenly droves of people show up. It's written off as employee error or equipment malfuction. They know it will happen sooner or later and that the public will take advantage when it does. I can't think of a single industry where equipment malfuction isn't taken into account somewhere. It's just a hazard of having a business with any sort of mechanical device.

[Kernel Hapablap]

I'm going to post a story that relates to this topic, but I'll leave you all to decide if it is ethical or unethical or even how it relates.

When I was a kid, back in the 80s, my family was really poor. Times of extreme need were not foreign and the results of said need were apparent in our day to day lives. As children, we were keenly aware of our class as compared to our peers not only because our peers were rather skilled at informing us of our differences but also because of our parents encouraging us to try and make matters better. Things got so bad that for a while, my mother would encourage us to pick up pop cans and bottles and alcoholic beverage bottles whenever we found them. We even went on soda bottle runs on the backroads near our house where we would walk or ride bicycles or sometimes go in the car in search of cans to collect. The early part of the week, Sundays and Mondays were best, since Friday and Saturday nights were the richest part of the life of the town's outskirts and rednecks and college kids alike would find areas they thought others wouldn't know about (and the police would avoid) in order to marinate themselves in alcohol and make a lot of noise, all in the name of a good party. The remains of their adventures, found in large piles on the side of the road in nearly the same places every week, were frequently the funds for our next meal.

That's not what this post is really about, it is just a backdrop to another story that adds to the gray area of the issue at hand. During this time that we were often so desperate, there was a night where despite all our efforts, we failed to acquire enough money to supplement our meal that night. We had some macaroni and some hot dogs, but the meal was insufficient for a family of at least nine (five children and four adults). My mother, who was diabetic, decided that evening that she would not eat dinner with us. She prepared the meal that we had and got us all settled to dinner and she left for the store.

Later on, she would tell us her story of what happened there, a paraphrase of which follows. The store that she went to was very good about setting up nice displays of samples for people to munch on before they decide to make certain purchases. There was about ten of these throughout the store and they were often samples of very nice foods: Crackers, cheeses, lunch meats and even warm foods like barbecued meats and pizza. My mother wandered around the store for some time on a path that allowed her to pass by each "try me" stand in the store without crossing her path until she returned to the beginning of the route. This was her meal for the night and it probably seemed quite clever at the time.

However, the manager of the store was there at that time as well and had noticed what my mother was doing. He stopped her in the store and explained to her that there weren't any significant consequences that he could give her for her actions but that he could just ban her from the store. Right at the moment that the manager was chastising her, a person in a nearby isle had spilled a bag of birdseed.

Perhaps I should take a break to explain something. My mother was a highly religious person. She believed very much in her moral stance on things and that included concepts such as 'it is wrong to lie' and 'thou shalt not steal.' She knew that she was doing something that wasn't right when she did that, but it was an act out of desperation. She was hungry and there was no food for her.

Upon seeing the spilled birdseed, my mother made an offer to the manager because she didn't want to be banned from the store. She offered to clean up the spill in compensation for the samples of food that she took. I'm unsure if the manager intuitively knew that my mother was in a tough situation or if my mother told him, but he agreed to her offer nonetheless and told her where to get a broom. After having ensured that all the birdseed was swept up (even from under the shelving), my mother went back to the manager to let him know she had finished. The manager was obviously feeling particularly kind that day because he told my mother that she would not be banned from the store and he sent her home with $5.

I can't see what part of this is unethical. Free samples are free samples. there may be a tacit code of manners regarding how much one takes, but unethical, hell no.

[Blackadder]

I was reminded of this topic today when I tried to buy coffee from a vending machine.

It costs €0,50 (small cup) and the machine said it took coins €0,05 - €2,-

I only had a €2,- coin .... No coffee... No return. Nothing. The supervisor was absent .. so I went to see another person in that building.. Oh yes, she said, that machine sometimes?! only accepts €0,50 coins.. She gave me 4x €0,50. I went back, putting in a 50 cent coin.. Still nothing.. I guess the €2 coin still blocked the machinery... I didn;t want to walk back again and bother her for a lousy 50 cents so I gave up and got myself a nice can of Coke for €0,90 instead...

alas... No lucky machine with free drinks for me.

[ZirconBlue]

This reminds me of the first time I put a quarter in a newspaper machine and discovered that if I wanted, I could have a whole stack of newspapers ...

But, unfortunately, they all have the same news in them.

[Wowbagger]

If it's not too much thread drift, I'd sure like to hear more about a Windows-based vending machine. How did you know? Did it use some kind of visual interface that allowed you to see a windows icon? What was it selling? Did you try a three-fingered salute? I have seen a snack and soda vending machine, that had a touch pad, complete with Windows error message. I believe that was on a trip to Calfornia some years ago. I have seen similar machines in Vegas, selling iPods and accessories, though I have not witnessed any error messages on any of them.
_________________________________________

Also, there was once a set of "experimental" soda and snack machines in a building I once worked in. I only know they were running Linux, because I saw them opened for maintenence a few times, and there would be a small, cube-shaped Linux box, complete with a keyboard and flat-screen monitor inside.

The machines had some uique features: You could buy two snacks, for the price of about 1 and a half, but you had to choose one "red" and one "green" item. There were lights designating which ones were which color, and god-knows what algorithm was used to make that designation!

The soda machine had a subscription card service: After you bought a certain number of sodas from it, you could get one free! It dispensed cards it could scan and write to, to determine when you got your freebie.

The machines were also notorious for their blunders. One time, one of my co-workers hit a "jackpot" when all the quarters that were inside of it, spilled out of the change receptical. Unfortunately, one of its assessment "goons" was standing by, and didn't let him keep all of it. But, the "goon" did confirm the story.

It has been a while since I worked in that building. But, I would guess those machines are not there, anymore.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm interested in the four of us* who voted it unethical but indicated they would do it anyway. What is it about the situation that makes one say, "Yep, it's wrong, but screw it"? Is it the relatively tiny amount of money involved? If there was, say, a literary vending machine that dispensed $20 books and an analagous situation occurred, would you still take advantage?

*I say us because I did it yesterday.
I am down, over the course of my life with vending machines, somehwere in excess of 100 dollars. My do it anyway response is a bit of me getting my own back against the great vending machine borg. I understand the ethics of the situation.

Now that I have a cell phone, I call when one goes nutso on me. (I still beat on it, however.) I have, in the past five years, been refunded seven dollars, despite numerous calls to various companies at their phone numbers. The money refunded was all by the same concern for the same machine in the same building.

At least one company does make good to you.

The rest can hang.

DR

[wunky]

[quote=Blackadder;4653164]I was reminded of this topic today when I tried to buy coffee from a vending machine.

ARE YOU MAD?
You actually drink that sludge? ((shudder))

[Typicallucas]

I wish there was a poll choice for this:

I would consider myself fortunate to have discovered the malfunction. I would take the drink I intended to buy, and then call the phone number on the machine and let them know it is defective.

If it is still dispensing free cokes the next day, I'd take another. But I wouldn't empty the whole machine!

The guilt I would feel would be far less than the pleasure I would get from a cold, tasty, and FREE beverage.

[six7s]

I can't think of a single industry where equipment malfuction isn't taken into account somewhere. It's just a hazard of having a business with any sort of mechanical device.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3380/3418193314_53320f7da7.jpg?v=0

[Roadtoad]

I'm going to post a story that relates to this topic, but I'll leave you all to decide if it is ethical or unethical or even how it relates.

When I was a kid, back in the 80s, my family was really poor. Times of extreme need were not foreign and the results of said need were apparent in our day to day lives. As children, we were keenly aware of our class as compared to our peers not only because our peers were rather skilled at informing us of our differences but also because of our parents encouraging us to try and make matters better. Things got so bad that for a while, my mother would encourage us to pick up pop cans and bottles and alcoholic beverage bottles whenever we found them. We even went on soda bottle runs on the backroads near our house where we would walk or ride bicycles or sometimes go in the car in search of cans to collect. The early part of the week, Sundays and Mondays were best, since Friday and Saturday nights were the richest part of the life of the town's outskirts and rednecks and college kids alike would find areas they thought others wouldn't know about (and the police would avoid) in order to marinate themselves in alcohol and make a lot of noise, all in the name of a good party. The remains of their adventures, found in large piles on the side of the road in nearly the same places every week, were frequently the funds for our next meal.

That's not what this post is really about, it is just a backdrop to another story that adds to the gray area of the issue at hand. During this time that we were often so desperate, there was a night where despite all our efforts, we failed to acquire enough money to supplement our meal that night. We had some macaroni and some hot dogs, but the meal was insufficient for a family of at least nine (five children and four adults). My mother, who was diabetic, decided that evening that she would not eat dinner with us. She prepared the meal that we had and got us all settled to dinner and she left for the store.

Later on, she would tell us her story of what happened there, a paraphrase of which follows. The store that she went to was very good about setting up nice displays of samples for people to munch on before they decide to make certain purchases. There was about ten of these throughout the store and they were often samples of very nice foods: Crackers, cheeses, lunch meats and even warm foods like barbecued meats and pizza. My mother wandered around the store for some time on a path that allowed her to pass by each "try me" stand in the store without crossing her path until she returned to the beginning of the route. This was her meal for the night and it probably seemed quite clever at the time.

However, the manager of the store was there at that time as well and had noticed what my mother was doing. He stopped her in the store and explained to her that there weren't any significant consequences that he could give her for her actions but that he could just ban her from the store. Right at the moment that the manager was chastising her, a person in a nearby isle had spilled a bag of birdseed.

Perhaps I should take a break to explain something. My mother was a highly religious person. She believed very much in her moral stance on things and that included concepts such as 'it is wrong to lie' and 'thou shalt not steal.' She knew that she was doing something that wasn't right when she did that, but it was an act out of desperation. She was hungry and there was no food for her.

Upon seeing the spilled birdseed, my mother made an offer to the manager because she didn't want to be banned from the store. She offered to clean up the spill in compensation for the samples of food that she took. I'm unsure if the manager intuitively knew that my mother was in a tough situation or if my mother told him, but he agreed to her offer nonetheless and told her where to get a broom. After having ensured that all the birdseed was swept up (even from under the shelving), my mother went back to the manager to let him know she had finished. The manager was obviously feeling particularly kind that day because he told my mother that she would not be banned from the store and he sent her home with $5.

Been through times like that. I told a tale on another thread about this sort of a situation. Rather than let my wife and kids go hungry, I used to raid dumpsters. You'd be surprised how well you can eat from another man's plate, once you get past the mold and cigarette ashes.

[Christian Klippel]

Don't know why, but vending machines hate me. I lost so many DM and Euro in such machines, i'm really sick of them. For that reason, i answered "It is not unethical, and I would do it."

Here in Germany most machines you find at train stations, subway stations, etc. are set up by the same company. Same for cigarette vending machines, but at least there are a few more companies putting them up. However, almost 1/3 of my tries to get something out of any of these ended with either my cash completely gone and no goods, or no change paid back (or insufficient change). Heck, i don't even use ATM's anymore because i always get the broken ones that are switching to "out of order" as soon as i approach them....

So, heck, yes, whenever i would find such a malfunctioning machine, i'm all in. At least i could get back a small part of my losses that way. However, if i get back too much change, or some stuff doesn't appear on the bill when i'm in a regular shop, i tell them so and give back the excess change or pay the missing items. Guess that's the difference for me: Man vs. Machine, so to say. If people make mistakes, no need to exploit that. But if those nasty machines fail, no problem ...

Greetings,

Chris

[Blackadder]

[quote=Blackadder;4653164]I was reminded of this topic today when I tried to buy coffee from a vending machine.

ARE YOU MAD?
You actually drink that sludge? ((shudder))


As you saw the end result was that I drank a soft drink......

But there are situations that I drink vendor machine coffee. But maybe our stuff here is not the same as your sludge. There is a reason we don't have Starbucks here

[tsig]

I think the vendor should keep the machines is good repair so they neither cheat or reward you so if their machine malfunctions I see nothing wrong in taking advantage.

[ImaginalDisc]

Ah, I forgot the "how many times has that machine stiffed you" factor. In that case, I would take Coke equivalent to the number of times the machine had eaten my money. In offices where I've worked, each machine would probably owe me two Cokes or Snickers a year on that basis. It's only fair if you are taking from the same machine/operator who stiffed you though.

In a perfect world where the machine only malfunctions in my favour, though, my original post stands.

Uh oh - I just realised I have to give back all the Monopoly money I won thanks to "Bank error in your favour, collect £200".

Do you really think you'd win second prize a beauty contest?

*snorts*