Antiglobalism’s Jewish Problem (from "Foreign Policy" Magazine)

[Skeptic]

From the article:

Anti-Semitism is again on the rise. Why now? Blame the backlash against globalization. As public anxiety grows over lost jobs, shaky economies, and political and social upheaval, the Brownshirt and Birkenstock crowds are seeking solace in conspiracy theories. And in their search for the hidden hand that guides the new world order, modern anxieties are merging with old hatreds and the myths on which they rest.

The rest of it is here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13958

[DanishDynamite]

What's your point?

[Drooper]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
What's your point?


Perhaps:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Or maybe:

We are desitine to relive mistakes of history.

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by Drooper
We are desitine to relive mistakes of history.

Well, yes. We aren't remembered for the good things we do.

[DanishDynamite]

Drooper:Perhaps:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Or maybe:

We are desitine to relive mistakes of history. Excellent cliches, Drooper.

I await Skeptic's confirmation. Hopefully followed by his real point.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Drooper



Perhaps:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Or maybe:

We are desitine to relive mistakes of history.

Or maybe a writer is told to "do something on anti-semitism".

At the beginning of the article we get.......


" So why did some protesters at the 2003 World Social Forum (WSF) in Porto Alegre, Brazil, display the swastika?

Held two months prior to the U.S.-led attack on Iraq, this year’s conference—an annual grassroots riposte to the well-heeled World Economic Forum in Davos—had the theme, “Another World is Possible.” But the more appropriate theme might have been “Yesterday’s World is Back.” Marchers among the 20,000 activists from 120 countries carried signs reading “Nazis, Yankees, and Jews: No More Chosen Peoples!” Some wore T-shirts with the Star of David twisted into Nazi swastikas. Members of a Palestinian organization pilloried Jews as the “true fundamentalists who control United States capitalism.” Jewish delegates carrying banners declaring “Two peoples—Two states: Peace in the Middle East” were assaulted.".........

................snip....................

But then after a lengthy perambulation visiting anti-semitic nut farms around the world we get, at the end of the article and in relation to those opposing anti-semitic conspiracy theories, the following words.

.........."A measure of their success could be seen in the final day of the 2003 World Social Forum in Porto Alegre. While street protesters waved their swastikas, a small group of Jewish and Palestinian peace activists organized a series of workshops, funded by local Jewish and Palestinian communities in Brazil. The result was a joint statement, read to 20,000 cheering activists, calling for “peace, justice, and sovereignty for our peoples,” and a Palestinian state existing side by side with Israel. "

All credit to the writer for having the integrity to put in the counter argument.

Perhaps a headline saying "compromise supported and anti-semitism rejected by most at conference" wasn't what the editor wanted.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
What's your point?

The point of the article is that, to a large degree, the so-called "antiglobalization activists" and the "enlightened left" are the new antisemites, due to their paranoid thinking of a worldwide conspiracy to "globalize" everything.

As the article shows, it is only tiny step from that paraoia to the age-old accusation that the leaders of the global conspiracy are (you guessed it) the jews, and that quite a few of the "enlightened protectors of human rights against racism and capitalist opression" had made just this step.

The article also shows the critical role hatered of israel plays in taking this step. Once israel is identified as the #1 enemy of freedom and justice in the world (or #2, after the USA), US support of israel is the critical "clue", in this conspiratorial worldview, as to who "really" rules the USA and "forces" it to "support colonialism": it is the jews, of course.

Thus the "I am not an antisemite, just an anti-zionist" excuse quickly becomes "the jews control the world" conspiracy theory. As one of the protestors said, "if I told you what I think about globalization and capitalism, you'd say I'm a left-winger. If I told you who I think is behind it, you'd say I'm a right-winger".

This, of course, is not suprising, considering the fact that the jews were always the "real power" behind everything from the enlightment to humanism to freemasonry to capitalism to communism to race-mixing to feminism to whatever-it-is-you-don't-like-this-week-ism by those who opposed it.

But it is rather important, timely information, considering the huge increase in antisemitic incidents in Europe lately, and the EU's hypocritical decision not to publish its own 112-page study (by the EU's center for the study of racism and xenophobia) about the causes of this rise in antisemitism, because it identified muslims and anti-globailization activists as the two main causes of the increase, and not (as expected) right-wing groups... just like the FP article exposes.

Of course, the EU being completely without testicles, hiding its own findings instead of risking the shrill attacks of "racist!" and "islamophobe!" from those who are exposed as rabid antisemites is ALSO not surprising. (After all, it's only JEWS--why take political risks defending THEM?). The EU, after all, has had no testicles for a long time now. But if the EU will not speak the obvious truth, it's good that FP magazine does.

Think of the article as a summary of the 112-page study, reaching the same conclusions, which the EU first commissioned and then tried to suppress when its results didn't match what they wanted.

Think of it as exposing the real meaning of the "I am just an anti-zionist" apologetics as the lynchpin of the new socially-sanctioned antisemitism.

Think of it, in short, as tearing the mask of hypocracy off the anti-globalizations left-wing groups and exposing them as what they really are: yet another manifestation of the species of "protestors" we've seen throughout history, the "I have no idea what I'm criticizing, but I hate it and it's the jews' fault."

[Tony]

Originally posted by Skeptic


The point of the article is that, to a large degree, the so-called "antiglobalization activists" and the "enlightened left" are the new antisemites....


I'd like to add that these same political groups are the source of ALL mainstream racism in the US.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Skeptic

...the leaders of the global conspiracy are (you guessed it) the jews...
That the space bankers from the future walking freely among us turn out, after all, to be Jewish ought to please Cleopatra tremendously...

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent

That the space bankers from the future walking freely among us turn out, after all, to be Jewish ought to please Cleopatra tremendously...

"It was the first time they had flown together, and it was obvious by their silence that they didn't get along. After 30 minutes, the Captain finally spoke.
He said, "I don't like Chinese."
The First Officer replied, "Ooooh, no like Chinese? Why that?"
The Captain said, "You bombed Pearl Harbour. That's why I don't like Chinese."
The First Officer said, "Nooooo, noooo ... Chinese not bomb Pearl Harbour. That JAPANESE, not Chinese."
And the Captain answered, "Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese ... it doesn't matter. They're all alike."
Another 30 minutes of silence.
Finally the First Officer said, "No like Jew."
The Captain replied, "Why not? Why don't you like Jews?"
"Jews sink Titanic."
The Captain tried to correct him, "No, no. The Jews didn't sink the Titanic, it was an iceberg."
"Iceberg, Goldberg, Rosenberg, Spielberg ... no mattah ... all same." "


;)

Cleopatra is pleased tremendously when Frank drives safely...

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:The point of the article is that, to a large degree, the so-called "antiglobalization activists" and the "enlightened left" are the new antisemites, due to their paranoid thinking of a worldwide conspiracy to "globalize" everything. OK.

For the record, I'll admit I haven't read the entire article as my eyes glazed over about halfway through.
As the article shows, it is only tiny step from that paraoia to the age-old accusation that the leaders of the global conspiracy are (you guessed it) the jews, and that quite a few of the "enlightened protectors of human rights against racism and capitalist opression" had made just this step. Personally, I found the article laughable in its own paranoia. The only bit which wasn't laughable was this claim:
Not since Kristallnacht, the Nazi-led pogrom against German Jews in 1938, have so many European synagogues and Jewish schools been desecrated. I was waiting for some evidence of this claim, but didn't find it. Perhaps it was in the bottom half.
The article also shows the critical role hatered of israel plays in taking this step. I would say "Exactly!", except for the use of the hyperbole "hatred". There is substantial disagreement with the way Israel handles the conflict with the Palestinians. This disagreement could indeed be a factor in a percieved rise of anti-semitism.
Once israel is identified as the #1 enemy of freedom and justice in the world (or #2, after the USA), US support of israel is the critical "clue", in this conspiratorial worldview, as to who "really" rules the USA and "forces" it to "support colonialism": it is the jews, of course. Complete bollocks.
Thus the "I am not an antisemite, just an anti-zionist" excuse quickly becomes "the jews control the world" conspiracy theory. As one of the protestors said, "if I told you what I think about globalization and capitalism, you'd say I'm a left-winger. If I told you who I think is behind it, you'd say I'm a right-winger".And the word of one protester among the "huge" number of 20,000 (LOL) obviously reflects general opinion. Don't make me laugh.
This, of course, is not suprising, considering the fact that the jews were always the "real power" behind everything from the enlightment to humanism to freemasonry to capitalism to communism to race-mixing to feminism to whatever-it-is-you-don't-like-this-week-ism by those who opposed it.What is surprising is that anyone would take that crap seriously. Luckily, almost no one does.
But it is rather important, timely information, considering the huge increase in antisemitic incidents in Europe lately, and the EU's hypocritical decision not to publish its own 112-page study (by the EU's center for the study of racism and xenophobia) about the causes of this rise in antisemitism, because it identified muslims and anti-globailization activists as the two main causes of the increase, and not (as expected) right-wing groups... just like the FP article exposes. Do you have a link which provides evidence of this "huge increase"? And would you have one relating to the non-published report?
Of course, the EU being completely without testicles, hiding its own findings instead of risking the shrill attacks of "racist!" and "islamophobe!" from those who are exposed as rabid antisemites is ALSO not surprising. (After all, it's only JEWS--why take political risks defending THEM?). The EU, after all, has had no testicles for a long time now. But if the EU will not speak the obvious truth, it's good that FP magazine does. Your paranoia and anthropomorphism aside, what are you talking about?
Think of the article as a summary of the 112-page study, reaching the same conclusions, which the EU first commissioned and then tried to suppress when its results didn't match what they wanted. Ooooh. Once again the evil EU is suppressing stuff. Odd how they didn't supress the recent poll concerning countries which were a threat to world peace.
Think of it as exposing the real meaning of the "I am just an anti-zionist" apologetics as the lynchpin of the new socially-sanctioned antisemitism. Socially-sanctioned? How do you mean?
Think of it, in short, as tearing the mask of hypocracy off the anti-globalizations left-wing groups and exposing them as what they really are: yet another manifestation of the species of "protestors" we've seen throughout history, the "I have no idea what I'm criticizing, but I hate it and it's the jews' fault." I'm sure this is your paranoid worldview, but how does it relate to reality?

BTW, I found the following quotes from the article interesting:It is the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement refusing to put the Star of David on their ambulances. And? Why the humping hell should they?
Last June, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press published a survey conducted in 44 countries revealing that, although people generally have a favorable view of globalization, sizable majorities of those polled said their “traditional ways of life” are being threatened and agreed with the statement that “our way of life needs to be protected against foreign influence.” And many believe “success is determined by forces outside their personal control.”Lovely. I basically agree. Oh, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Jews, so of what relevance is it in the article?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
I was waiting for some evidence of this claim, but didn't find it. Perhaps it was in the bottom half.



Danish Dynamite

According to Simon Wiesenthal Centre ( which is not a centre of the fanatics) during the previous year we recorded the highest rates of violence against the Jewish communities of Europe since WWII.

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra:According to Simon Wiesenthal Centre ( which is not a centre of the fanatics) during the previous year we recorded the highest rates of violence against the Jewish communities of Europe since WWII. Thanks. Would you have a link?

[Cleopatra]

Simon Wiesenthal Centre -News Releases (http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press_archive.cfm)

[Chaos]

The Wiesenthal Center is at www.wiesenthal.com. (googling helps ;) )

I did not look for that particular report Cleopatra refers to, though.

From what I notice about violence against jewish communities around here, which is very little*, it is mostly desecrated cemeteries, and swastikas sprayed on the walls of synagogues and jewish community centers. (Don´t mistake me, though - this is bad enough as it is)
However, earlier this year our federal police uncovered a plot by a neonazi would-be terrorist cell (would-be as in "got busted before they could do anything") to bomb a gathering at the laying of the foundation stones of a jewish community center in Munich that, I think, took place on November, 9th, the 65th anniversary of the Reichskristallnacht.

*I do not know if this means there is very little such violence, or that it just does not get reported. I think - and hope - it is the former.

Cleopatra
Is there any data on who commited this violence - neo-nazis, muslim extremists, or "generic" criminals? Just wondering...

[Skeptic]

Evidence? Sure, DD.

1). As for the non-published report, I read about it in the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/11731.htm

but as the NY Post itself says, it is quoting the "Financial Times" as the source. The FT is not exactly known as some sort of right-wing newspaper.

2). As for the rise in antisemitism, Cleo already beat me to it--try the Simon Wiesenthal center, among many others.

Oh, and for your claim that israel's behavior is the "real reason" for the rise in antisemitism, I would have been SLIGHTLY more convinced if, not long ago, the "real cause" for antisemitism was not their "racist" country, but that they are "parasites" because they DON'T have their own country. The "real reason" for antisemitism changes with the seasons; the hatered stays the same.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Chaos

From what I notice about violence against jewish communities around here, which is very little*, it is mostly desecrated cemeteries, and swastikas sprayed on the walls of synagogues and jewish community centers. (Don´t mistake me, though

Nope we don't take you wrong :)

The symbolism the act of desecrating a cemetary has is very old and those who perfom it deliver a clear message to the community whose cemetary is being attack: you must leave.

Also, we leave in the 21th ce. It would be horrific if the crimes were worse than that!


Cleopatra
Is there any data on who commited this violence - neo-nazis, muslim extremists, or "generic" criminals? Just wondering...

If we don't have arrests and convictions it is against the Law to speculate.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Simon Wiesenthal Centre -News Releases (http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press_archive.cfm) Thank you, my lovely, but there are hundreds of articles on that page. Which one relates to my question?

[Cleopatra]

Danish Dynamite You might control the safety of my keyboard but it's too late to search the whole site, I mean I can't do it even for your eyes now.

I will do my best tomorrow morning :)

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:Evidence? Sure, DD.

1). As for the non-published report, I read about it in the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/11731.htm

but as the NY Post itself says, it is quoting the "Financial Times" as the source. The FT is not exactly known as some sort of right-wing newspaper.Thanks, Skeptic. Just had a quick look. According to the article:The EUMC's director said only that the study was rejected because its definition of anti-Semitism was "too complicated."I'll agree that this seems a weak excuse for not publishing. However, without further details, it is difficult to judge the reason for not publishing.
2). As for the rise in antisemitism, Cleo already beat me to it--try the Simon Wiesenthal center, among many others.I did and was stumped by the hundreds of articles there.
Oh, and for your claim that israel's behavior is the "real reason" for the rise in antisemitism, I would have been SLIGHTLY more convinced if, not long ago, the "real cause" for antisemitism was not their "racist" country, but that they are "parasites" because they DON'T have their own country. The "real reason" for antisemitism changes with the seasons; the hatered stays the same. The "real" reason does indeed change, but mostly among the paranoid who need to see "Jew-haters" everywhere.

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra: Danish Dynamite
You might control the safety of my keyboard but it's too late to search the whole site, I mean I can't do it even for your eyes now.

I will do my best tomorrow morning :) I know you will, my one-and-only. Your infatuation with me guarentees it.

:D

[JamesM]

The original FT story about the report is here (http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=031122001339). A further story about the reasons for not publishing (also from the FT) is here (http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=031124006667).

Unfortunately, I can't find any figures on the SWC site for increases in anti-semitic incidents in Europe as a whole. There is plenty of talk about it from several places, but no numbers. Last year, the World Jewish Congress (http://www.wjc.org.il/index.html) complained of increasing anti-semitism across Europe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1946851.stm), but I've yet to find figures on their site, either. Apparently, "the facts speak for themselves", but there aren't that many listed.

For France, there was a large increase (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2892125.stm) in anti-semitic attacks in 2002 (compared to 2001), but it appears that the number of attacks in 2003 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3282335.stm) has actually gone down, compared with the same period in 2002. Unfortunately, information that would illustrate any trends for even the last few years, let alone going back to 1936, is proving elusive.

In the UK, according to the Community Security Trust, the first quarter of 2003 saw a significant increase (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2994637.stm) in the incidence of anti-semitic attacks. Amusingly, their director of communications is called Mike Whine.

Well, I thought that was funny.

If anyone wants to try and find figures for other European countries, I'd like to see them.

[Cleopatra]

This report concerns Greece (http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemId=8328)

[Mr Manifesto]

So... Let me get this straight... You're saying the anti-globalisation movement is anti-Semitic?

I know you're paranoic with delusions of persecution, but surely it's time for you to get some help?

[Cleopatra]

Since we know that when it comes to illusions you have a good share as well, could you please define whom you are addressing?

[Chaos]

If Mr. M is adressing Skeptic (and this guy from ForeignPolicy), I am inclined to agree with him.

These continous hints that any critical comment on Israel, and obviously on the USA as well, is motivated only by antisemitism, begins to remind me of those old "it´s all the jewish world conspiracy" BS. Who´d have thought that this idiocy would work the other way round as well?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Since we know that when it comes to illusions you have a good share as well, could you please define whom you are addressing?

Sorry, should use the quote function more often- I was referring to Skeptic.

Incidentally, an 'illusion' implies you know it's a trick and can see through it. Good example of which can be seen here (http://www.optillusions.com/dp/1-1.htm). You know the dots aren't black, it's your eyes tricking you.

A delusion -the word you're looking for- is when you can't tell the difference between fiction and reality. For example, Skeptic's idea that the antiglobalisation movement has an anti-Semitic agenda is a delusion. He can't see the reality of the movement no matter how hard he tries. Schizophrenics who think the government is putting microphones in their rooms are similarly deluded.

Thus endeth the English lesson for today.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

According to Simon Wiesenthal Centre ( which is not a centre of the fanatics) during the previous year we recorded the highest rates of violence against the Jewish communities of Europe since WWII.

Wiesenthal was a great Nazi Hunter. However, would you say (as a skeptic) that the Simon Wiesenthal Centre is an entirely impartial and unbiased source for such information?

[Skeptic]

These continous hints that any critical comment on Israel, and obviously on the USA as well, is motivated only by antisemitism,

Where have I EVER said that?

What I said, which is true, is that DELIGITIMIZING israel--claiming that, due to this or that action, it has no right to exist--is antisemitism. There are two reasons for this:

1). First, the deligitimization applies ONLY to the jewish state, while no other nation, no matter how awful its actions, is ever deemed not worthy of existence.

This is treating the jewish state among the nation the same way jews were treated among others--as the one group whose very existence is conditional on good behavior (or else). As Sharon correctly said, it's "treating israel as the jew among the nations". It's classical antisemitism, merely raised to the national level.

2). Second, most of the criticism is conspiracy-theory stuff in the first place. Take, for example, the USS Liberty conspiracy theory. Not only was it repeatedly posted on this forum as "proof" of israeli "perfidity", but when newly declassified evidence proves beyound a doubt that it was an accident, at least one person hinted darkely that the "real reason" the new material exhonerates israel is because it was "doctored" by mysterious "zionists" who control the secret services.

This is simply the age-old antisemitic fear of the all-powerful, secretive jew, with the convenient replacement of "jew" with "zionist".

As for being "paranoid", thank you. Israel Zangvil, the jewish intellectual of the 19th century, was once asked why the jews are so clannish and paranoid. As he said, "2000 years of christian love made us rather careful".

When in the "anti-racism" (HA!) conference in Durban israeli flags are burned, when synagogues are attacked, when the British press published illustrations of a golden star of david stabbing a prone union jack to death (or of the American flag's stripes being twisted into a star of david), when the italian press published a cartoon of the baby jesus asking israeli tanks "don't crucify me AGAIN", jews KNOW what all that really means.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[What I said, which is true, is that DELIGITIMIZING israel--claiming that, due to this or that action, it has no right to exist--is antisemitism. There are two reasons for this:

1). First, the deligitimization applies ONLY to the jewish state blah blah blah blah.............

2). Second, most of the criticism is conspiracy-theory stuff in the first place. Take, for example, the USS Liberty conspiracy theory
blah blah blah


When in the "anti-racism" (HA!) conference in Durban israeli flags are burned, when synagogues are attacked, when the British press published illustrations of a golden star of david stabbing a prone union jack to death (or of the American flag's stripes being twisted into a star of david), when the italian press published a cartoon of the baby jesus asking israeli tanks "don't crucify me AGAIN", jews KNOW what all that really means.

1) What if I apply the same logic to a Palestinian state?

2) Nice straw man.

I suppose you have links and supporting evidence to show that the British press published illustrations of a golden star of david stabbing a prone union jack to death and all the other stuff above? First hand links to the original document would be good.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Skeptic
These continous hints that any critical comment on Israel, and obviously on the USA as well, is motivated only by antisemitism,

Where have I EVER said that?


How about this post of yours:


The point of the article is that, to a large degree, the so-called "antiglobalization activists" and the "enlightened left" are the new antisemites, due to their paranoid thinking of a worldwide conspiracy to "globalize" everything.

*snip*

Think of it, in short, as tearing the mask of hypocracy off the anti-globalizations left-wing groups and exposing them as what they really are: yet another manifestation of the species of "protestors" we've seen throughout history, the "I have no idea what I'm criticizing, but I hate it and it's the jews' fault."

Bold face mine

That is the same old tactic many people who are critized employ: ignore the points made and call you opponent "anti"-something.

When will it finally get into your head?

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.

Criticism of the USA is not anti-americanism.

Finding a positive word for palestinians is not support of terrorism.

We have had this discussion many times since i joined this forum, but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything but your own thoughts.
I am giving my best to see both sides - be it in the Israel/Palestinians issue, be it in USA vs. world opinion matter, be it in advocates of globalization vs. opponents of globalization.
You, calling yourself "Skeptic", of all usernames possible, should, with all your intellect, try to do the same. Instead, you display an intolerance, obstinacy, political partisanship, hypocrisy and plain stupidity that makes me retch. Change your nickname to "Fanatic"; that would be more fitting.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Wiesenthal was a great Nazi Hunter. However, would you say (as a skeptic) that the Simon Wiesenthal Centre is an entirely impartial and unbiased source for such information?

SWC just records events. It doesn't convict people and it doesn't point to guilties and suspects. There is no way to lie about the burning of a synagogue you know...

Chaos I don't understand why people keep confusing antisemitism with the criticism towards Israel.

People do have the right not only to criticize but to protest against Israel as well.

Why don't the burn the Israeli Embassies in Europe and they burn the Synagogues?

Mr.Manifesto
<font face="symbol">qa elega oti eisai alhthV, alla oi alhteV exoun kapoia gohteia, eisai apla kopanoV kai kakohqhV.Blaka!</font>

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


SWC just records events. It doesn't convict people and it doesn't point to guilties and suspects. There is no way to lie about the burning of a synagogue you know...


There certainly are ways to distort and skew crime stats.

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Chaos I don't understand why people keep confusing antisemitism with the criticism towards Israel.


Simple, because its much easier for Isrealis and other Zionist and Zionist apologists to label every criticism of the Isreali state as "anti-semitism" and "Nazism" than to actually engage in logical and reasoned arguments about the actions of Isreal.

[Chaos]

Cleopatra

I wasn´t talking about you. Sorry if you got that impression.

I was talking about Skeptic and, from what I´ve heard, Mr. Sharon´s recent rant about "collective antisemitism in Europe" which is, according to him, shown in their criticism of his policy.

I won´t burn anything in Europe. (Although I´d make an exception if I came across the headquarters of a Neo-Nazi group)

The real anti-semites are not the ones who criticize Israel. They don´t criticize anything, they just burn and desecrate.

D@mn it, the people who criticize Israel mostly are trying to help Israelis! They are trying to show what they see as a better way to end the Israel/Palestinians conflict!

*sigh*

The fantasy author Robert Asprin created a saying that illustrates that quite well: "Blessed be the peacemakers, because they get whacked by both sides."


Mr Manifesto
My English lesson to you: ;)

A delusion is something one person suffers, which originates in his/her mind, like seeing non-existent white mice when you´re drunk.
An illusion is something that exists outside anyones mind, but is not what it appears to be - like fata morganas, which are images of real things in a place where they really are not.

I don´t know, though, which is what Skeptic suffers from.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

There certainly are ways to distort and skew crime stats.

You didn't understand. I repeat. SWC's mission is to record events.

Simple, because its much easier for Isrealis and other Zionist and Zionist apologists to label every criticism of the Isreali state as "anti-semitism" and "Nazism" than to actually engage in logical and reasoned arguments about the actions of Isreal.

I don't understand. Do you mean that they burn the Synagogue in order not be accused of antisemitism?

Also I don't understand what the term Zionist apologist means.Zionism is the right of Jews to have a country, an issue that has been resolved and even the Arabs have accepted. What's your problem with that?

[Skeptic]

Bold face mine

So? Look at the article. Look at who the subject of this criticism is: it's PRECISELY those whose "criticism" of israel calls for its deligitimization and destruction.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.

No, SOME criticism of israel is anti-semitism: such as deligitimizing it and calling for its destruction is.

Criticism of the USA is not anti-americanism.

No, SOME criticism of the USA is anti-americanism: such as the claim that Bush is a dictator "worse than Saddam", or that it is ruled by a military Junta.

Finding a positive word for palestinians is not support of terrorism.

No, SOME positive words for palestinians is support of terrorism, such as the claims that it is "legitimate resistance of the enemy".

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Chaos
Cleopatra

I wasn´t talking about you. Sorry if you got that impression.

I know!!! I just posed the question to you :)

I was talking about Skeptic and, from what I´ve heard, Mr. Sharon´s recent rant about "collective antisemitism in Europe" which is, according to him, shown in their criticism of his policy.

We know what sort of politician Sharon is but when it comes to the rise of antisemitism I can't blame him because lately the violence against the jewish communities has increased.

I won´t burn anything in Europe. (Although I´d make an exception if I came across the headquarters of a Neo-Nazi group)

Nope! It's illegal don't do it! Don't make them heroes. I know that you are joking :)
D@mn it, the people who criticize Israel mostly are trying to help Israelis! They are trying to show what they see as a better way to end the Israel/Palestinians conflict!

Aha! Now you are talking Chaos!!

I have been trying to persuade people here, especially Unique that Israel needs criticism but it needs healthy and fair criticism. Also, as in every conflict two parts are implicated. The other side needs some criticism as well but let's avoid to start this discussion here. We have at least two active threads where we can discuss that! :)

[Skeptic]

Simple, because its much easier for Isrealis and other Zionist and Zionist apologists to label every criticism of the Isreali state as "anti-semitism" and "Nazism" than to actually engage in logical and reasoned arguments about the actions of Isreal.

Is burning synagogues "criticism of the Israeli state"?

Is displaying a front cover of a golden star of david stabbing a union jack "criticism of the israeli state"?

It claiming the jews are the evil force that control globalization for their nefarious ends "criticism of the israeli state"?

Is the desire to destroy israel and expel or butcher the jews "criticism of the israeli state"?

(Well, THAT one is, in the same sense that murdering someone is "disapproving" of him.)

THAT is what the article is talking about. And the leaders of THOSE actions are the anti-globalist and islamist movements.

[Pycroft]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

I suppose you have links and supporting evidence to show that the British press published illustrations of a golden star of david stabbing a prone union jack to death and all the other stuff above? First hand links to the original document would be good.

Just for info http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,646268,00.html

The original picture was pretty strong stuff, unfortunately led to me cancelling my subscription, despite the apology.



Diolch

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Skeptic
*snip*

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.

No, SOME criticism of israel is anti-semitism: such as deligitimizing it and calling for its destruction is.

Criticism of the USA is not anti-americanism.

No, SOME criticism of the USA is anti-americanism: such as the claim that Bush is a dictator "worse than Saddam", or that it is ruled by a military Junta.

Finding a positive word for palestinians is not support of terrorism.

No, SOME positive words for palestinians is support of terrorism, such as the claims that it is "legitimate resistance of the enemy".

We might have a different idea of the meaning of the word "criticism".

I definde "criticism" as the fufilling the following criteria:

- agreeing with the general goals of the one critized (though not necessarily all details of that goal)
- disagreeing about the means to reach this goal
- pointing something that having no effect or a negative on the general goals AND/OR making suggestions as to how to further said goals

Therefore "Don´t treat Palestinians so harshly, as this will only create more terrorists" is criticism. "Death to Israel" is not.

Do you agree with my definition?


By the way, the goal, regarding Israel and the Palestinians, that I would support is "Peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, and equal opportunities for both to achieve democracy, liberty, rule of law, and economic well-being" - which would necessarily include two separate states recognizing each other and treating each other as equals. More specifically, that would require the Palestinian authorities to end terrorism, probably with outside help, and it would require Israel to stop construction of illegal settlements, removal of all existing illegal settlements, and, in the end, the dismantling of the "security wall". It would also mean that any act of violence from one side against the other is investigated, probably by a neutral third side, and anyone implicated in that is put before a criminal court, and if found guilty, is convicted, sentenced, and jailed - anybody without exception, even if that includes Arafat and Sharon themselves.

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:What I said, which is true, is that DELIGITIMIZING israel--claiming that, due to this or that action, it has no right to exist--is antisemitism. There are two reasons for this:

1). First, the deligitimization applies ONLY to the jewish state, while no other nation, no matter how awful its actions, is ever deemed not worthy of existence.

This is treating the jewish state among the nation the same way jews were treated among others--as the one group whose very existence is conditional on good behavior (or else). As Sharon correctly said, it's "treating israel as the jew among the nations". It's classical antisemitism, merely raised to the national level.Deligitimization (is that a word?) of Israel is not per se anti-semitic. It depends on the reason. If the reason given is that "Israel is full of Jews" then, yes, that would be anti-semitic.

BTW, there are other nations whose right to exist are questioned. Tibet, for example. Or Taiwan. Or....Palestine.
2). Second, most of the criticism is conspiracy-theory stuff in the first place. Take, for example, the USS Liberty conspiracy theory. Not only was it repeatedly posted on this forum as "proof" of israeli "perfidity",... Which is not anti-semitism.
...but when newly declassified evidence proves beyound a doubt that it was an accident, at least one person hinted darkely that the "real reason" the new material exhonerates israel is because it was "doctored" by mysterious "zionists" who control the secret services.That isn't anti-semitic either. It is just conspiracy crap.
This is simply the age-old antisemitic fear of the all-powerful, secretive jew, with the convenient replacement of "jew" with "zionist".In your mind, yes.
As for being "paranoid", thank you. Israel Zangvil, the jewish intellectual of the 19th century, was once asked why the jews are so clannish and paranoid. As he said, "2000 years of christian love made us rather careful". So you admit you are paranoid. Good. Admiting you have a problem is the first step.
When in the "anti-racism" (HA!) conference in Durban israeli flags are burned,... Not anti-semitism.
....when synagogues are attacked,...Yes, anti-semitism.
... when the British press published illustrations of a golden star of david stabbing a prone union jack to death...Borderline. The Israeli flag contains a star of david. It is difficult to judge whether the star of david referred to the state of Israel or to Jews. Since it was stabbing another flag, I would tend to think the former.
...(or of the American flag's stripes being twisted into a star of david),...See above.
... when the italian press published a cartoon of the baby jesus asking israeli tanks "don't crucify me AGAIN",...Yes, anti-semitism.
...jews KNOW what all that really means. Paranoid Jews, perhaps.

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.

No, SOME criticism of israel is anti-semitism: such as deligitimizing it and calling for its destruction is.Deligitimizing it and calling for its destruction is not anti-semitic. Calling for the destruction of all Jews is anti-semitic.
Criticism of the USA is not anti-americanism.

No, SOME criticism of the USA is anti-americanism: such as the claim that Bush is a dictator "worse than Saddam", or that it is ruled by a military Junta. This is not anti-Americanism. This is anti-Bush and paranoid delusion, respectively.
Finding a positive word for palestinians is not support of terrorism.

No, SOME positive words for palestinians is support of terrorism, such as the claims that it is "legitimate resistance of the enemy". How is "legitimate resistance of the enemy" a positive word for Palestinians?

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:Is burning synagogues "criticism of the Israeli state"?No, that is anti-semitism.
Is displaying a front cover of a golden star of david stabbing a union jack "criticism of the israeli state"?On balance, Yes.
It claiming the jews are the evil force that control globalization for their nefarious ends "criticism of the israeli state"?No, that is anti-semitism.
Is the desire to destroy israel ["criticism of the israeli state"]?Yes.
...and expel or butcher the jews "criticism of the israeli state"? No, that is anti-semitism.
THAT is what the article is talking about. And the leaders of THOSE actions are the anti-globalist and islamist movements. While I have no love for anti-globalists, your claim redarding their anti-semitism is unsubstantiated.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Mr.Manifesto
<font face="symbol">qa elega oti eisai alhthV, alla oi alhteV exoun kapoia gohteia, eisai apla kopanoV kai kakohqhV.Blaka!</font> [/B]



Le Francais est une langue bien meilleure que l'Hebreu

[Cleopatra]

Yeah but these are Greek.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yeah but these are Greek.

Let's move this one to flame wars.

[Ed]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Skeptic:OK.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This, of course, is not suprising, considering the fact that the jews were always the "real power" behind everything from the enlightment to humanism to freemasonry to capitalism to communism to race-mixing to feminism to whatever-it-is-you-don't-like-this-week-ism by those who opposed it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What is surprising is that anyone would take that crap seriously.
Luckily, almost no one does.


You are surprised? You are joking. That sort of demonization of Jews was the groundwork for this:



LAW FOR THE SAFEGUARD OF GERMAN BLOOD OF GERMAN HONOR
Certain in the knowledge that the purity of the German blood is the fundamental necessity for the continuation of the German people, and endowed with an unflinching will the secure the German nation for all times to come, the Reichstag [parliament] has unanimously approved the following law, which is herewith made public:


Paragraph 1.
Marriage between Jews and citizens of German or German-related blood are forbidden. Marriages which have been performed in spite of this law, even if they have been performed in a foreign country, are void.
Complaints declaring them void can originate only with the District Attorney.

Paragraph 2.
Extramarital sexual intercourse between Jews and citizens of German or German-related blood are forbidden.

Paragraph 3.
Jews are not allowed to employ female citizens of German or German-related blood under 45 years in their household.

Paragraph 4.
Jews are forbidden to raise the Reich and National flag and they cannot show the National colors.
However, they are allowed to display Jewish colors. The exercise of this disposition is under the state's protection.

Paragraph 5.
Whoever acts against Paragraph 1 will be punished with forced labor.
The man who acts against Paragraph 2 will be punished with prison or forced labor.
Whoever acts against Paragraph 3 or 4 will be punished with prison not exceeding one year and with a fine, or with one of these punishments.

Paragraph 6.
The Secretary of the Interior will, together with the Deputy Fuhrer and the Attorney General, issue the necessary law and administrative ordinances.

Paragraph 7.
This law is valid on the date of its publication, but Paragraph 3 will be valid only as of 1 January 1936.
Nuremberg, 15 September 1935
National Party Liberty Congress

Der Fuhrer and Reich Chancellor
(signed) Adolf Hitler
(other officials also sign)



People do take that stuff seriously. This was the law for Germany. Very formal and very teutonically official. I suspect that there were many that said "what crap, noone takes it seriously".

[DanishDynamite]

Ed:You are surprised? You are joking. Nope.
That sort of demonization of Jews was the groundwork for this: Wouldn't surprise me. And?
People do take that stuff seriously. This was the law for Germany. Very formal and very teutonically official. I suspect that there were many that said "what crap, noone takes it seriously". Very possible. What's your point, Oh-Infinite-One?

[Skeptic]

So, DD, in your view, the desire to destroy israel isn't antisemitic? Go figure.

[JamesM]

Here's an interesting recent article from the BBC website, Viewpoints: Anti-Semitism and Europe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3234264.stm), featuring the comments of 12 experts on Jewish affairs. It touches on several of the issues raised in this thread.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite Skeptic:Deligitimization (is that a word?) of Israel is not per se anti-semitic. It depends on the reason. If the reason given is that "Israel is full of Jews" then, yes, that would be anti-semitic.



So hatred of an individual for belonging to a group is bad, but that same hatred directed against a nation whos population is mostly that same group is okay? I think it's a strange sort of logic that believes that escalation of hatred lends it legitimacy.

Originally posted by DanishDynamite While I have no love for anti-globalists, your claim redarding their anti-semitism is unsubstantiated.


So why is it that Israel among some 140 other nations gets singled out to represent globalism?

[Cleopatra]

Reading BBC's survey this morning I was thinking what would I do if things turned nasty again in Europe.

Would I leave or would I stay to give a fight? For sure I wouldn't stay hoping that things can't turn that bad as my grandparents thought.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Skeptic
So, DD, in your view, the desire to destroy israel isn't antisemitic? Go figure. I'm pointing out that there is a vast difference between the state of Israel and Jews. Criticism of one isn't criticism of the other.

[DanishDynamite]

Mycroft:So hatred of an individual for belonging to a group is bad, but that same hatred directed against a nation whos population is mostly that same group is okay? I think it's a strange sort of logic that believes that escalation of hatred lends it legitimacy.Where did I say that hatred of either was okay?
So why is it that Israel among some 140 other nations gets singled out to represent globalism? It doesn't. If the anti-globalist nuts (which consist of many groups) could even be said to single out a nation, it would seem to be the US, from what I've seen.

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra:Reading BBC's survey this morning I was thinking what would I do if things turned nasty again in Europe.

Would I leave or would I stay to give a fight? For sure I wouldn't stay hoping that things can't turn that bad as my grandparents thought.I think you should move north. A Scandinavian country, perhaps? ;)

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by JamesM
Here's an interesting recent article from the BBC website, Viewpoints: Anti-Semitism and Europe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3234264.stm), featuring the comments of 12 experts on Jewish affairs. It touches on several of the issues raised in this thread. Nice article. Most of the experts, many of them Jews, seem to feel as I do that there is increased criticism of Israel but that this isn't the same as anti-semitism.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Cleopatra:I think you should move north. A Scandinavian country, perhaps? ;)


My Mediterranean temper would drive you crazy Danish Dynamite although every time I visit Copenhagen I feel like a Goddess. Having dark colors in a country of blonde people with milky skin makes you look like a fly in the milk! It feels good :D

When I was little I remember that I have read a story on how the Danish Royal Family saved the Jews, I have never searched if it was a real one or just a legend. According to this story when the Nazis ordered the Jews to wear the Star of David, the people of Denmark reacted by wearing it in masses so the Nazis couldn't tell who was a Jew. Is that true?

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra:My Mediterranean temper would drive you crazy Danish Dynamite...You already drive me crazy. :D
... although every time I visit Copenhagen I feel like a Goddess. See! Wouldn't you like to feel like a Goddess all the time?
Having dark colors in a country of blonde people with milky skin makes you look like a fly in the milk! It feels good :DIt's settled then. I'll meet you at the airport. :)
When I was little I remember that I have read a story on how the Danish Royal Family saved the Jews, I have never searched if it was a real one or just a legend. According to this story when the Nazis ordered the Jews to wear the Star of David, the people of Denmark reacted by wearing it in masses so the Nazis couldn't tell who was a Jew. Is that true? It's lovely story, but it is an urban legend.

From Snopes: (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/denmark.htm)
Although the Danes did undertake heroic efforts to shelter their Jews and help them escape from the Nazis, there is no real-life example of the actions described by this legend. Danish citizens never wore the yellow badge, nor did King Christian ever threaten to don it himself. In fact, Danish Jews never wore the yellow badge either (except for the few who were finally deported to concentration camps), nor did German officials ever issue an order requiring Danish Jews to display it.

[Cleopatra]

It's ok. Even if the story isn't real it shows the prevailing attitude towards the procecutions of the Jews.

The truth is that I haven't seen anything to commemorate this act in Yad Vassem but I have never searched it to be honest.

A similar story from the Greek island of Corfu though is true. When the Nazi commander asked the Mayor to handle him a list with the Jewish citizens, he wrote on a piece of paper his name and the name of the Archibishop of Corfu. The commander didn't dare to touch the Jews of the island of Corfu which interestingly was one of the places in which --during the remote past-- blood libels had been published. Both the Mayor and the Archibishop have an exceptional place in the Righteous among the Nations.:)

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
I'm pointing out that there is a vast difference between the state of Israel and Jews. Criticism of one isn't criticism of the other.

So in your view a burning desire destroy the jewish state is NOT antisemitism? What if I had a burning desire to destroy Denmark--would that not imply I hate Danes?

[Skeptic]

Another article on this issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4804550-110687,00.html

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Skeptic

What if I had a burning desire to destroy Denmark--would that not imply I hate Danes?
Or that you don't like lutefisk as a roofing material.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[B]

So in your view a burning desire destroy the jewish state is NOT antisemitism? As I've said before, deligitimizing the state of Israel is not by itself anti-semitism.
What if I had a burning desire to destroy Denmark--would that not imply I hate Danes? Once again, it depends upon your reason.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent

Or that you don't like lutefisk as a roofing material. "Lutefisk"? What's that?

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
"Lutefisk"? What's that?
Huh? Lefse, ainna. I dunno. Uff da, (http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/3227/) the secret incredient in Ole Larsen's lutefisk, ya! If you can't say nuttin' gute 'bout lye, don't say nuttin, OK?

Huh? Oh... din't know dat. Danish joke are oxymoron, you becha. Beer?

[Dancing David]

Previously I couldn't get my computer to post to this thread.

I am frightened by the increase in anti semitism seen in the last five years, especialy as it manifests as anti-islamic sentiment in Bosnia/Herzogovina. The recent rise in anti semitic acts in Europe and the uS is truely appaling.

But to BUMP back to the OP.

I disagree with the observation that the anti global movement has been hijacked by the right wing nut balls.

Respectfuly disagree, while they are trying to co opt the anti globalization movement , they are not the main thrust of the movement.

I participated and try to participate in the Nestle/Beich boycott since the 1970s, and have never done so as an anti semite.

I just happen to feel that the world will be dominated by Multi-National Corporate Intrests(MNCI) and that the influence of the MNCI are already out of hand. They create all sorts of wierd under currents in US polotics and I am sure they dominate politics around the world.

Why does canada have to defend it's fisheries with thier Navy, MNCI.
Who is currently depleteing the fisheries in the waters of every poor nation on earth, MCNI.
Who will overturn all the great social protections of any nation, MNCI.
Who will sell arms to countries that need food, MNCI.
Who ravages Kenya? MNcI.

Many evils will come about due to the MNCI, most of which are run by right wing Christians, I say fear the rights wing Christians, there is no jewish protocol for world domination at the MNCI.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Dancing David Previously I couldn't get my computer to post to this thread.

I am frightened by the increase in anti semitism seen in the last five years, especialy as it manifests as anti-islamic sentiment in Bosnia/Herzogovina. The recent rise in anti semitic acts in Europe and the uS is truely appaling.


Can you explain me the connection between antisemitism and anti-islamism please?

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Dancing David


I disagree with the observation that the anti global movement has been hijacked by the right wing nut balls.



Who said this?

:confused:

[Gem]

Can you explain me the connection between antisemitism and anti-islamism please?

I beleive the peasant dancing david is refering to anti-semitism as a movement against semetic people, which includes jews and arabs. Ergo: anti semitism = anti islamism.

Gem

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Can you explain me the connection between antisemitism and anti-islamism please?

In the case of Bosnia I feel that the anti-turkish sentiment is exactly the same as the anti-jewish sentiment.

That was really all that i meant, I am not making the general argument that the islamic people are often semetic. Just that in the case of the ethnic turks in Bosnia/Herzogovina, the same racial pogroms that had been visited upon the jewish diaspora were visited upon the slavic turks.

I think that in this case the roots and the behaviors were strickingly the same, the stories of the ethnic turks reads almost like the stories of the russian pogroms, then there was the usual 'look the other way' attitude of certain European leaders, the same attitude they showed prior to WWII.

I feel that in the USA, many of the stereo types are applied to both the jewish and islamic members of our nation. I recall how in my home town there were attacks upon people who were percieved to be Arabs in he 1970s.

There have been no physical attacks upon members of the jewish faith in my town, but the Hillel Foundation was vandalized about ten years ago and the mosque was vandalized about four years ago.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Mike B.


Who said this?

:confused:

It is in the source cited in the OP. There are right wing neo nazis who insert themselves into the anti global movement.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Gem


I beleive the peasant dancing david is refering to anti-semitism as a movement against semetic people, which includes jews and arabs. Ergo: anti semitism = anti islamism.

Gem

I am a peasant, thanks! My family hasn't lived on the farm since my great grandmother. Peasant huh? No better pejorative than that, I am disappointed with you.


The issue that I am refering to is that in many of the eyes of americans there is little seperation between the jewish state of Israel and the other nations of the middle east. In many an american's eye, they are very similar in nature and many americans do blame the jewish and islamic people for all the evils of world. Or they lump them together with those 'other crazies in the middle east'.

My main point is that the sentiment of anti arab/islam/towel-head is very similar to the sentiment of anti Israel/jewish/yarmulke head.

The people of the two faiths rightly distinguish between thier two faiths, I am not sure that many americans actualy could. I grew up in a large university town and met many secular and non secular jews, this is not the norm in central Illinois, where the diversity rests in which synod of the Lutheran church you belong to. Or if you spell Johnson or Johnsen.

During my life I have encountered many an anti jewsh person, unfortunately. I see lttle difference in religous bigotry , wether against Judaism or Islam, the sentiments of the frightful Arayan Nation and more traditional but still frightening KKK are the same towards the members of either faith. I see a similarity in the rhetoric towards both and a demonization of both.

Peasant huh, thanks!

[Cleopatra]

A different point of view.

A very nice article from BBC.com

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3327781.stm



Viewpoint: Hanukkah has a bar mitzvah

Jewish people around the world are getting ready to celebrate Hanukkah. Edward Serotta, director of www.centropa.org, an institute specialising in Jewish history and culture in Central Europe, has been documenting and photographing Jewish life there since the mid-1980s. He explains why the "festival of lights" is particularly symbolic this year.

[...]

But in this 13th year of freedom in these former communist countries, despite renewed charges by some Americans and some Israelis, that all Europe is a sea of Jewish hatred, tens of thousands of Jews in Central and Eastern Europe will dance around their synagogues and social halls, fry up tens of thousands of potato pancakes, and thrill to hear their children caterwaul their way through age old melodies.

And for the following eight nights, they will light thousands and thousands of Hanukkah menorahs, in their synagogues, in their schools, in their homes.

They say that Hanukkah, which revolves around the legend of the tiny flame that wouldn't go out, lasts eight nights. In this part of the world, Hanukkah has had a good 13-year run. It wouldn't be out of place to tip the hat to these small communities for all they've done these past few years. It wouldn't even be a sin to applaud them.