Furure of humanity look grim? I'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND!

[charles brough]

If you believe, that the medium and long term outlook for “society,” for “the Earth,” for world affairs---in other words, for the human race---is dismal, ominous, etc., then let me change your mind! I believe as you do, but I still think I can convince you that the outlook is really good and that you are wrong!

Does it seem rational to you that the problem must have begun a few generations to a few centuries ago and it has gotten worse? Then, perhaps you think that something has happened to the human ability to think, to solve problems, to plan, to execute plans. If so, do you think that loss of ability is due to genetic or epigenetic change that is accelerating? Perhaps we are experiencing “reverse evolution” (!)

No, most of you are familiar with biology and evolution enough to know better! It has nothing to do with any biological, genetic or evolutionary change in us.

So, what is left? Isn't the only thing left what we believe? Sure it is, there is no alternative explanation. The world is divided into Muslim nations, Christian-originated nations, Marxist ones, and Hindu ones. Are they to blame? When we look back into world history, we find that we have been divided into different religions for the full extent of recorded history. So that does not seem to be the reason. Besides, the world is being run not by them but by our secular belief system. The UN, the IMF, World Bank, etc. are all secular institutions. Our governments are mostly all secular. Iran, North Korea, Gaza, and the Tribal Areas are about the only exceptions. It seems hardly reasonable to blame all our world problems on those few people in those small nations or sub-nations instead of our inability to deal with them and with the other problems!

That leaves only one thing. Our secular system is failing us. What else can possibly be the problem? . . .nothing is left. We had secularized the way the world was run, but our secular system has become steadily less and less able to unite the world and to deal with its problems.

So, since you do not and cannot believe anything is wrong with our secular beliefs, you are forced to conclude that the world outlook is good after all.

There you are, just as I said at the beginning! Feel better now?:D

[drkitten]

Does it seem rational to you that the problem must have begun a few generations to a few centuries ago and it has gotten worse? [Then, perhaps you think that something has happened to the human ability to think, to solve problems, to plan, to execute plans.

Not at all.

Perhaps I think that problems that are ignored become worse and more difficult to solve.

I'm a homeowner. I drive a car. Heck, I also visit a doctor from time to time. Catching a problem early is key to solving it. If I have a slightly leaky pipe under the sink, it's a simple fix. (I can simply wrap the pipe in duct tape.) But if I let it go until the pipe rusts out, I'm going to need to -- at a minimum -- replace the pipe. At some point, the water's going to start damaging the floor and I'll need to replace the cupboard floor, or possibly even the subflooring. Left long enough, it could do serious structural damage to the house.

Similarly, I had a car, years ago, that leaked oil. Not a problem; it lost something like a quart a month. Bright and early, on the first of every month, I had to pour in a new can. But if I had failed to do so, and the car had run out of oil, the entire engine would have seized up, turning a $2 fix into a several hundred or thousand dollar fix.

And ask any oncologist about the importance of early diagnosis and treatment.


So, what is left? Isn't the only thing left what we believe?

Nope, as shown above.


you are forced to conclude that the world outlook is good after all.

Not at all.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Humans are neither better nor worse than we've ever been.

We do have superior technology now, though.

[yy2bggggs]

I think the technical term for this, charles, is "drivel". Was there a line of reasoning in the OP that I missed? Not only does the problem and the conclusion seem totally made up, but nothing within your post seems to logically connect the two.

[madurobob]

So, um, global warming, massive pollution, over-fished oceans, nuclear proliferation, global population explosion, etc... are all because we're just too secular?

Huh.

[Dave Rogers]

So, what is left? Isn't the only thing left what we believe?

No. You've completely ignored the effect of technology on society and individual behaviour. Global communications, long distance travel and weapons of unprecedented power mean that many of the limitations previously preventing individuals and minority groups from exerting a destructive effect on society no longer apply.

Since you've ignored a very large and very significant factor, your entire post is effectively a false dilemma.

Dave

[uruk]

~snip~

So, what is left? Isn't the only thing left what we believe? Sure it is, there is no alternative explanation. The world is divided into Muslim nations, Christian-originated nations, Marxist ones, and Hindu ones. Are they to blame? When we look back into world history, we find that we have been divided into different religions for the full extent of recorded history. So that does not seem to be the reason. History has also shown how we have been beset with nearly catastrophic problems because of this. Besides, the world is being run not by them but by our secular belief system. The UN, the IMF, World Bank, etc. are all secular institutions. These are recent institutions in comparison to religious institutions. Religious institution have been around for a very long time and have been the cause of a great many problems and unrest that exist to this day. Our governments are mostly all secular. Some only recently. Some have have been in bed with religion for most of thier history. Iran, North Korea, Gaza, and the Tribal Areas are about the only exceptions. And they have been the cause of many problems and issues that plague us today. (i.e. terrorisim, political unrest, etc.) It seems hardly reasonable to blame all our world problems on those few people in those small nations or sub-nations instead of our inability to deal with them and with the other problems! Why not? They may not be responsible for the non-political problems that afflict us but they do produce thier share of problems which can take up resources and brain power that could be used on other problems.

That leaves only one thing. Our secular system is failing us. What else can possibly be the problem? . . .nothing is left. We had secularized the way the world was run, but our secular system has become steadily less and less able to unite the world and to deal with its problems. Actually I say the opposite is true. Religion tends to be a dividing foprce in our cultures. Religious intolerance and expansionisim have been the cause of a great many problems we have. Though in recent history you had the political schizims of democracy and communisim, but today we tend to coexists relatively comfortably. We have growing relations with China and Russia, and the ice is breaking with Cuba. This is something that happening within decades. How about theocracies?

The secular world tends to bring our culturs together. Technology and commerce bind and unite countries into a symbiotic relationship. There are always growing pains and coexistance issues to be sure, but at least secularism allows for the problems to be resolved in manner that is more mutualy beneficial. Religion usualy demands that any opposing religion be eliminated or overcome which usualy leads to strife.

So, since you do not and cannot believe anything is wrong with our secular beliefs, you are forced to conclude that the world outlook is good after all.

There you are, just as I said at the beginning! Feel better now?:D

As others have mentioned here, you seem to have overlooked or glossed over a great many things.

[Ikarus]

There you are, just as I said at the beginning! Feel better now?:D
Although I appreciate the effort of reassuring and comforting other people -that's a nice thought-, I think your theory is simplistic and flawed and the fact that people, such as yourself, seem to think and believe that the solution to the world's problems is to simply seperate back into religions, slightly saddens me.

:(

edit: was the OP an excersize in Poe's law?
edit2edit: I see it is no longer called Poe's law on wikipedia, but it is still called Poe's Law on rational wiki (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law).
Poe's Law states:

“ Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.[1]

[Ladewig]

The opening post as a wide-grinned smiley at the end. Surely it was meant as a bit of a spoof.

[Ikarus]

And surely, you don't link to an atheistic science website when you advocate unsecularizing or vice versa...

I feel dumb. :covereyes

[charles brough]

Not at all.

Perhaps I think that problems that are ignored become worse and more difficult to solve.

I'm a homeowner. I drive a car. Heck, I also visit a doctor from time to time. Catching a problem early is key to solving it. If I have a slightly leaky pipe under the sink, it's a simple fix. (I can simply wrap the pipe in duct tape.) But if I let it go until the pipe rusts out, I'm going to need to -- at a minimum -- replace the pipe. At some point, the water's going to start damaging the floor and I'll need to replace the cupboard floor, or possibly even the subflooring. Left long enough, it could do serious structural damage to the house.

Similarly, I had a car, years ago, that leaked oil. Not a problem; it lost something like a quart a month. Bright and early, on the first of every month, I had to pour in a new can. But if I had failed to do so, and the car had run out of oil, the entire engine would have seized up, turning a $2 fix into a several hundred or thousand dollar fix.

And ask any oncologist about the importance of early diagnosis and treatment. Nope, as shown above. Not at all.

As you say, problems can get much worse if not dealt with in time. Not dealing with them in time is not that the world has more problems but that our societies have a problem for not dealing with problems effectively and when they should.

[yy2bggggs]

As you say, problems can get much worse if not dealt with in time. Not dealing with them in time is not that the world has more problems but that our societies have a problem for not dealing with problems effectively and when they should.
But there are factors you're not considering--like the steady decline of the number of pirates.

(Don't look at me... I'm more pro-ninja).

[Darth Rotor]

But there are factors you're not considering--like the steady decline of the number of pirates.
You don't run a shipping company that plies the waters off the Horn of Africa, do you?

(By the way, ninja's are wankers and posers, the lot of them.)

DR