Chastity vows

[Puppycow]

The president of Paraguay (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8017370.stm), fathered at least one child (by his own admission) and perhaps three, by different women while he was a Roman Catholic bishop.

It seems like the chastity rules, which go against natural human instinct and physiological needs, are a bit of a problem for the church. Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism? Also, what other religions have celibate (at least in theory) clerics? IIRC, Jain monks are also supposed to be celibate. They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.

[MarekM]

From the Catechism of the CC:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.' Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to 'the affairs of the Lord,' they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God."

[geni]

It seems like the chastity rules, which go against natural human instinct and physiological needs, are a bit of a problem for the church.


Not in the general run of things.


Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism?


It isn't.

[MG1962]

The president of Paraguay (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8017370.stm), fathered at least one child (by his own admission) and perhaps three, by different women while he was a Roman Catholic bishop.

It seems like the chastity rules, which go against natural human instinct and physiological needs, are a bit of a problem for the church. Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism? Also, what other religions have celibate (at least in theory) clerics? IIRC, Jain monks are also supposed to be celibate. They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.

In what way are people tricked into being celibate. It is not like they hide the fact in the job description for Catholics priest.

On the subject in general I agree it is tough to keep up the celibacy vow within the Chuch. Falling in love with someone, and the desire to raise a family leads to a lot of priests etc leaving the priesthood.

I know within the Catholic Church that they vet canidates pretty tightly. Even with declining numbers, the Church realises the sacrifices that need to be made are well beyond what many of us a capable of.

[shadron]

From the Catechism of the CC:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.' Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to 'the affairs of the Lord,' they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God."

The only problem is that after a while it tends to itch, joyous heart or not.

[shadron]

In what way are people tricked into being celibate. It is not like they hide the fact in the job description for Catholics priest.

On the subject in general I agree it is tough to keep up the celibacy vow within the Chuch. Falling in love with someone, and the desire to raise a family leads to a lot of priests etc leaving the priesthood.

I know within the Catholic Church that they vet canidates pretty tightly. Even with declining numbers, the Church realises the sacrifices that need to be made are well beyond what many of us a capable of.

I agree. There is no more trickery than there is for an American to voluntarily accept military duty, and then find that a fight has been picked with some foreign country and that he is expected to perform. In fact, less so, as the threat for a priest is not contingent on anyone else's actions. Yes, a priest may not know what temptation might be brought to bear, but it's not beyond intellectually grasping, and resigning is always a possibility.

Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism?As geni says, "sex" may not be; depends on how you define it. Sex that doesn't result in intercourse (Clinton's sin?) is, perhaps, a relatively minor sin of courting temptation; adultery (intercourse outside of marriage) is, and more so adultery in spite of vows of chastity (breach of solemn promise, and abuse of exalted position). It is wrong and sinful because the church says so, and they say so because tradition based upon Christ's example as described in the Bible deems it so.

They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.

Nope. They sought their position of trust based on their promises, and then abrogated the contract. That behavior would have netted them the death penalty at times in the past; today, it would only net them the minor shame associated with resigning their position in order to regain their ability to dally as they please. As they choose to enjoy both, then they subject themselves to as much shame as can be brought to bear, IMHO, as well as much penalty as contract abrogation and accusations of breach of trust as can be brought to bear.

[Bluefire]

From the Catechism of the CC:

" they give themselves entirely to God and to men."

Explains so much, (or would have if it also said "boys" )

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly I don't get this. Are they allowed to masturbate? I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives. Are you allowed to have wet dreams?

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community. Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).

[MarekM]

Explains so much, (or would have if it also said "boys" )

Ha! I was thinking the exact same thing.

[wardenclyffe]

Well, he broke his vow of celibacy, but he's still a good Catholic. He didn't use birth control.

Ward

[Darth Rotor]

Well, he broke his vow of celibacy, but he's still a good Catholic. He didn't use birth control.

Ward
FWIW:

To slightly correct you, he's only still a good Catholic if he went to confession and did the pennance assigned.

He otherwise can't (by rule) receive communion until his sin of fornication is reconciled. If he ain't receiving communion at mass, he's not in any way shape or form "still a good Catholic."

He'd know this, being a priest at one point in his life.

DR

[Aitch]

Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I don't need chastity vows. Unfortunately. :mad:

[Darth Rotor]

Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I don't need chastity vows. Unfortunately. :mad:

A possible remedy:

Make sure the ladies know you can breath through your ears. That may break the ice, a bit. :cool:

[Aitch]

I'll practice licking my eyebrows, as well...:cool:

[shadron]

Honestly I don't get this. Are they allowed to masturbate? I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives. Are you allowed to have wet dreams?

Come on. Is it really that hard to think like a prude?

Are they allowed to masturbate?Masturbation is right out, as it is for all Catholics. It is waste of potential (at least for the male), as well as temptation to further sexual pleasure.

I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives. How many Catholics truly adhere to the strictions against birth control, even though the penalties (like excommunication) are even more socially stigmatizing?

Are you allowed to have wet dreams?Sure, I'm allowed, though I must admit that it doesn't.... Oh - you mean Catholics, which I gave up longer ago than dreams. Wet dreams are not normally considered willful acts, so one is not required to attempt to suppress them, however one would possibly go about that. Tie a yellow ribbon...?

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community. It is not unnoticed that there is somewhat of a parallel between BDSM and Pauline doctrine on sex; many have commented upon the parallels and cause/effect relationship between self-flagellation, for example, and sexual denial - it runs as an implicit undercurrent through the Da Vinci Code, one of many.

Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).I suppose we'd have to ask an expert, perhaps like yourself. Is it effective? More to the point, is it fun? And who do you give the key to - the local bishop? Perhaps the most senior female in the local police department - ah, there's justice.

[Puppycow]

In what way are people tricked into being celibate.

Only in the sense that they are tricked into thinking the whole religion is true. Such as wine turning into blood.

[SezMe]

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community. Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).
OK, you got me intrigued so I did (http://www.cb-2000.com/cb3000.html):

The transparency of the clear device makes it very intriguing while being worn. It also comes in Neon and Black for the adventurous man.

Doesn't appear that the Catholic church is their target audience. :)

[fromdownunder]

Masturbation is right out, as it is for all Catholics. It is waste of potential (at least for the male), as well as temptation to further sexual pleasure.



Can we pursue this one just a little further please? I can understand the second part of this sentence as to why maturbation is not acceptable to the Church, although AFAIK, there is nothing in the Bible which explicitly forbids it (I am familiar withthe Onan story).

But as far as "waste of potential", I also understand that the Church does not disapprove of the rythm method, which also a "waste of potential" - well, most of the time anyway :). So it seems to me that one method of sexual relief (masturbation) is not allowable and another (intercourse while a woman is not fertile) is.

And I will leave aside the life span of a single sperm, the chances of any single sperm actually impregnating a woman (the number of sperm per ejaculation is a bit of overkill), and the waste of potential in women every month that they do not fall pregnant.

Norm

[shadron]

Can we pursue this one just a little further please? I can understand the second part of this sentence as to why maturbation is not acceptable to the Church, although AFAIK, there is nothing in the Bible which explicitly forbids it (I am familiar withthe Onan story).

But as far as "waste of potential", I also understand that the Church does not disapprove of the rythm method, which also a "waste of potential" - well, most of the time anyway :). So it seems to me that one method of sexual relief (masturbation) is not allowable and another (intercourse while a woman is not fertile) is.

And I will leave aside the life span of a single sperm, the chances of any single sperm actually impregnating a woman (the number of sperm per ejaculation is a bit of overkill), and the waste of potential in women every month that they do not fall pregnant.

Norm

All I can really say by way of support is that that was the argument given to me in my tender youth. Rhythm is allowed but is not really encouraged; ideally, you should always intend to create a child whenever you engage in the act (all the better to ruin the fun, of course). The Catholic Church trusts tradition more heavily than it does scripture, and traditionally no one knew anything concrete about human sperm until Anton von Leeuenhoek did some peeking and wrote about 1720:

What I investigate is only what, without sinfully defiling myself, remains as a residue after conjugal coitus. And if your Lordship should consider that these observations may disgust or scandalise the learned, I earnestly beg your Lordship to regard them as private and to publish or destroy them as your Lordship thinks fit.So no one could have conceived of the waste explicit in sex before that time.

[Puppycow]

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community.

How's this for masochism (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-540453/Boy-15-nailed-cross-Filipinos-whip-crucify-gory-Good-Friday-ritual.html)?

[MG1962]

How's this for masochism (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-540453/Boy-15-nailed-cross-Filipinos-whip-crucify-gory-Good-Friday-ritual.html)?

Though from the article

The country's dominant Catholic Church disapproves of the crucifixions and flagellations as a misrepresentation of the faith

So even the Church thinks they are crazy

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Only in the sense that they are tricked into thinking the whole religion is true. Such as wine turning into blood.

Only in the sense that you like to abuse language :p .

[I Ratant]

...
As geni says, "sex" may not be; depends on how you define it. Sex that doesn't result in intercourse (Clinton's sin?) is, perhaps, a relatively minor sin of courting temptation; adultery (intercourse outside of marriage) is, and more so adultery in spite of vows of chastity (breach of solemn promise, and abuse of exalted position). It is wrong and sinful because the church says so, and they say so because tradition based upon Christ's example as described in the Bible deems it so.
...


.
Clinton's "sin" is a crime in the UCMJ... "ANY penetration is sufficient for conviction".
Dick or stogie, machs nichts!
And ejaculation to prevent pregnancy, Onan was smote for that!

[I Ratant]

How's this for masochism (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-540453/Boy-15-nailed-cross-Filipinos-whip-crucify-gory-Good-Friday-ritual.html)?
.
And another..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Ashura

[I Ratant]

Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I don't need chastity vows. Unfortunately. :mad:
.
Yeah, there's other cultural "features" that include chastity or celibacy, desired or not! Sob!

[I Ratant]

...

But as far as "waste of potential", I also understand that the Church does not disapprove of the rhythm method, which also a "waste of potential" - well, most of the time anyway :). So it seems to me that one method of sexual relief (masturbation) is not allowable and another (intercourse while a woman is not fertile) is.
...

Norm
>
I'd heard that those Catholics that used the rhythm method had a special term for the results.... parents...!
.
I'm the middle child with siblings put-near 18 months older and younger.
I did find a condom when snooping thru my parent's chest-of-drawers, many a year ago!
I bet those are more reliable than the rhythm method.

[qayak]

I did find a condom when snooping thru my parent's chest-of-drawers, many a year ago!
I bet those are more reliable than the rhythm method.

More reliable for birth control, unfortunately condoms cause AIDS or didn't you get that memo from the church?

[Puppycow]

Though from the article

The country's dominant Catholic Church disapproves of the crucifixions and flagellations as a misrepresentation of the faith

So even the Church thinks they are crazy

I have to admit that I didn't read that far down.
But a little further down, I came across this:
Some foreigners have previously been crucified including a Belgian nun and a Japanese man, who later allowed footage of his ordeal to be used in a pornographic film. No one has ever died during the rituals.

:newlol :roll:

[Soapy Sam]

While modern dictionaries tend to conflate the words " celibate" and "chaste", we should remember that the original meanings were distinct. A monk (though not all priests, I'm told) would take vows including Obedience, Poverty, Chastity (no sex) and Celibacy (no marriage). I suppose in societies where younger sons often joined the priesthood, this avoided embarassing conflicts of interest and slowed the breeding of impoverished gentry.
Oddly, nuns were allowed to marry- but they all married the same person. Wierd.
But that's the wacky world of religion.

[I Ratant]

More reliable for birth control, unfortunately condoms cause AIDS or didn't you get that memo from the church?
.
This was long before AIDS.
One could purchase condoms in the rest rooms in the local service stations.
"For the prevention of disease".

[qayak]

.
This was long before AIDS.
One could purchase condoms in the rest rooms in the local service stations.
"For the prevention of disease".

That's probably what caused AIDS.

[NobbyNobbs]

I don't have a cite for this, but I was told that priests were allowed to marry at one time. Then the church realized that every time a priest died, he'd leave his money, land, and belongings to his wife and kids. By not allowing them to marry, the church caused them to leave their inheritance to the church.

I don't know how much truth is in this though.

[Andronicus]

I don't have a cite for this, but I was told that priests were allowed to marry at one time. Then the church realized that every time a priest died, he'd leave his money, land, and belongings to his wife and kids. By not allowing them to marry, the church caused them to leave their inheritance to the church.

I don't know how much truth is in this though.

Generally Latin Rite priests cannot be married when ordinated (they can be widows) or after. Eastern Rite (using the term generally for the 10% of practicing non-Latin Rite catholics, formerlly referred to as Uniates) priests can be married when ordinated but can't marry (or marry again) later. In the Latin Rite, more and more regulations were issued from 700 AD until 1500 AD until priests being married was finally barred. See Catholic Encyclopedia: Celibacy of Priests (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm), 1917. (Obviously pro-Catholic, but probably accurate enough especially as to dates.)

Latin Rite priests still generally cannot be married (d'uh), but the Apostolic See (the Pope or his designee) may allow a priest to be married. Code of Canon Law 1042, 1047. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3S.HTM) As an example of a recent exception, some Anglican priests converting to Catholicism have been ordinated priests despite being married. See this article (http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MARPRIE.htm)for a discussion and example.

I don't think inheritance was the Church's biggest issue with priestly marriage as most priests from propertied families were the younger sons raised for the priesthood in part to have the older sons maintain a larger estate (though I wouldn't doubt exceptions). Some reasons I've heard why a priest shouldn't marry include:
symbolically the priest represents Jesus therefor should be married only to the Church;
a married priest might not be able to "pick up and go" when required because of family concerns;
the local diocese supports its priests, and can't afford to support a priest and his family;
a priest shouldn't have to choose between obeying his wife and his bishop;
celibacy is a sacrifice which the community understands and profits by;
celibacy is a discipline which helps support other catholic disciplines (like fasting when appropriate);
and historically the Church didn't want to create dynastic lines of priests.

(Whatever my beliefs about the Roman Catholic Church; some of the above concerns are practical and logical.)

[I Ratant]

the local diocese supports its priests, and can't afford to support a priest and his family;
.
There's a congregation locally whose preacher has a white Rolls Royce!
PASTOR 9 as the vanity! plate.
I wonder how many members of the congregation have anything close to the RR in value, or even any 20 of them all together!
Getting rich off the congregation is not uncommon in some religions.
That's one of the driving forces in religion.
Perks!