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JetLeg
25th April 2009, 09:11 AM
I think that the question 'does god exist' is not the important question to be asked.

The evils of organized religion are not caused by the philosophic question 'does god exist', but by the attitudes that people have towards this god if he exists.

Imagine that there _really_ is a creator of the universe. In no way it means that he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. We have zero proof for that. We cannot infer from the fact that god can achieve) a lot in a certain area (knowledge, creating of stuff, compassion) that god can achieve everything in that area.

Perhaps god is almost omni-omni-omni. Perhaps he only lacks in the following: he doesn't know what is the phone number of Sylvia Brown, cannot creqate a red snail, and is not compassionate towards the dog of G.W. Bush. How would one prove that the last proposition is not true?

Not only we have zero proof for that god is omni-omni-opmni, but even if we would have one, it would still be a tentative one. (Which the religious try to forget about). If it would be proven that there is a god, and god would reveal himself to us and say "1+1=3", we would have to conclude that god is not omniscient/can lie/can err and not that 1+1=3.

It is the same with every area of knowledge. If god tells us that it is a good thing to kill unbeleivers, the right conclusion that god is not omnibenevolent. If he told us that he created the universe in six days, we can conclude that he is dellusional/has amnesia/can lie/doesn't know english well.


So, the important difference is not between theists and atheists. The evil of religion is caused by that it subdues one's own reason to authority. If an authority (god) tells us something that contradicts reason, or contradicts evidnece, a freethinker would conclude that the authority is wrong (for whatever reason). A true believer concludes that his reason is wrong. And that is the important difference.

BonkingBear
25th April 2009, 01:27 PM
What is ..the important question...then?

JetLeg
26th April 2009, 01:15 AM
What is ..the important question...then?

Isn't it evident from what I wrote?

The important question is "If an authority tells us something that contradicts our reason \ evidence, what will we do? Will we say that reason is wrong, or that the authority is wrong? ". (The authority in this case is god).

If people would believe in god, would even believe that the bible was written by god, but wouldn't conclude that when the bible contradicts reality, it is reality that is wrong and not god\the bible, religion wouldn't be a threat to science. Nor it would be to ethicical behaviour.

six7s
26th April 2009, 03:27 AM
What is ..the important question...then?Isn't it evident from what I wrote?Not to me... but I've only had two glasses of wine...

Maybe after two bottles I'll be on your wavelength

Bluefire
26th April 2009, 06:51 AM
That is _A_ important question. Another important question is by what standard one should choose ones authorities. So one should not limit the questioning of "Gods" authority to the cases where it is crystal clear that it is absurd. One should have a very good case for accepting the authoritys decrees in the other cases as well.

Ultimately all of these important questions boils down to epistemology: reason vs wishful thinking (faith among other varieties)

Ladewig
26th April 2009, 06:53 AM
deleted because I thought better of it.

Minarvia
26th April 2009, 02:23 PM
Not to me... but I've only had two glasses of wine...

Maybe after two bottles I'll be on your wavelength

Me, too. I have absolutely NO idea what he is talking about. :confused:

six7s
26th April 2009, 02:30 PM
I am now stone cold sober...

If anything, I'm less likely to guess

JetLeg
27th April 2009, 04:32 AM
Any other comments?

the PC apeman
27th April 2009, 08:12 AM
So, the important difference is not between theists and atheists. The evil of religion is caused by that it subdues one's own reason to authority. If an authority (god) tells us something that contradicts reason, or contradicts evidnece, a freethinker would conclude that the authority is wrong (for whatever reason). A true believer concludes that his reason is wrong. And that is the important difference.
Let me see if I get your message. Is it that theists value faith over reason and atheists value reason over faith?

If people would believe in god, would even believe that the bible was written by god, but wouldn't conclude that when the bible contradicts reality, it is reality that is wrong and not god\the bible, religion wouldn't be a threat to science.
Ignore conflicts and you won't be conflicted. Is that really the message you're trying to convey?

...religion wouldn't be a threat to science. Nor it would be to ethicical behaviour.
You seem to be saying that if we'd just stop employing reason when it conflicts with religion, then religion wouldn't conflict with ethical behavior either. (Implicit message: religion isn't ethical behavior when viewed with reason.) Okay. No problem. Thanks.