Nice Guy Syndrome

[Starthinker]

I've come to believe that nice guys finish last and my opinion has always been that jerks and a-holes don't have any qualms about who they step on while they go through life trying to get what they want. I just read this little article (http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/datingtips/88037/dating-question-can-a-guy-be-too-nice/;_ylc=X3oDMTNlaDhtMWZxBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEX3MDMjE0MjE2 Mzc0MwRrA0NhbiBhIEd1eSBCZSBUb28gTmljZQRzZWMDZnBfcH Vsc2UEc2xrA2RhdGluZy1xdWVzdGlvbi1jYW4tYS1ndXktYmUt dG9vLW5pY2UEenoDYWJj) about nice guys and for me at least it sure rings true. I seem doomed to always be "the friend" and never really have romance in my life. Maybe I listen too much or try to help too much or whatever but in every case I've always just been myself. More than a few times I've vowed to become a jerk and have women beg me not to change, but still no romance, just friendships.

At least now I know it's not just me that thinks that this is true.

[bpesta22]

Can't speak for women but my impression of being labeled a nice guy is that the lady is admitting to not finding you physically attractive without trying to be mean about it.

this nice / bad boy thing is confounded with physical looks most of the time.

[Miss_Kitt]

Hmmm... I think a--holes get what they have coming more often than not; and I think most people prefer to associate with people they think are good, moral, decent folk. I also think that people would rather be treated nicely. The "jerk" thing may look good on TV and impresses 17-year-olds, but I question whether anyone in real life would be willing to put up with that kind of BS for long.

I married a "nice guy" -- in fact, I married the nicest, most decent, honorable, and classy gentleman I know. We have a great marriage and a good sex life (it was great before parenthood but--as you parents know--the offspring do take away some of your 'fun time'). We laugh together a lot; we work well as a team; he still makes my breath catch sometimes just from catching a glimpse of him.

The important thing is, I believe, to recognize the difference between being nice and trying to please. Women, in general, like men to be assertive, confident, and capable. Trying too often to figure out what will please others and doing that is a turn-off because it looks like the guy is uncertain and trying to appease--acting like a low-ranking pack member, if you will. But it is possible to be confident, sure of one's goals and pursue one's interest without being a jerk about it.

I think I can put it this way: A-Rod is a JERK. He's clearly more than willing to sell out anyone and anything to advance himself, and he's so emotionally needy that he named all his kids--even the girls--after himself. L-O-S-E-R, he stopped being attractive pretty early on as his phoniness became apparent. Jeter is self-confident, capable, and apparently a decent guy as well. He doesn't have to push himself in people's faces, he lets his actions do the talking. Jeter's hot, because he can afford to be nice; and he's nice because he wants to be, not because he thinks other people want him to be.

Hope that made sense, MK

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Hm, the issue might be "people pleasing", which people rarely find pleasing. You know, when it is "Where do you want to go?" it is always a neutral "I dunno" or "Wherever" or "Where do you want to?" Never asserting one's wants or needs, which makes one to be a very boring person to most people.

I am completely like that, but I have no love interests or friends, so it doesn't bother me :p .

[gumboot]

Hmmm... I think a--holes get what they have coming more often than not;


It's a nice sentiment, but sadly as far as I've seen it's simply not true. The only time A-holes get what's coming to them is when they encounter a bigger A-hole.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I don't get the "play hard to get" angle the article talks about. Any time a woman has told me that she's not interested, my response is, "Sorry for bothering you. I'll leave you alone now." Have I been doing it wrong all this time?

[gumboot]

I don't get the "play hard to get" angle the article talks about. Any time a woman has told me that she's not interested, my response is, "Sorry for bothering you. I'll leave you alone now." Have I been doing it wrong all this time?

Yes.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Don't get me started on the Nice Guy... Every time I see some entitled whiner go on about how he never gets any action for being a nice guy I know that I am in actual fact not dealing with a "decent bloke" at all, but with a Nice Guy(TM).

Now, the Decent Bloke is an all together differentkind of person: just like miss Kitt described, but was too polite to put in context. I have no such qualms, because Nice Guys is a bug bear of mine.

The Decent Bloke treats other people right because he sees other people as people who deserve to be treated well without asking himself "is there any p**n in this for me?

The Nice Guy on the other hand, thinks the world owes him Snickers and women, and gets sniffy and starts whining that Nice Guys Finish Last whenever some human lady he has been casting his Net of Niceness around politely refuses him. B***h owes him after he spent all that time and effort being NICE! After all: nice obviously doesn't come natural to him. He's usually a pompous, self absorbed, entitled whiner who scores HIGH on the narcissistic scale.

If, after this description you have a problem understanding the difference between The Nice Guy and The Decent Bloke then you can be fairly certain in which category you fall.

Out of the three, The Decent Bloke, The Nice Guy and the Douchebag, The Nice Guy is actually the most obnoxious. TDB is the clear winner and preferred by all, not just women but anyone who associates with him. This is why Nice Guys(TM) wonder why the D gets ahead of him. The D may be an ass, but at least he's not fake. He is actually slightly nicer to be around than The Nice Guy(TM). Why? Well, The Douche is a Douche, but he never acts as if you OWE him.

So damn right Nice Guys(TM) finish last. Because a Nice Guy is just an extra obnoxious idiot in sheep's clothing. I am sure he has no clue for himself what an unpleasant character he is, so he is most likely self righteous too.

Learn to see women as... oh, I don't know ... people? And realize that any given woman is not obliged to return your affections(shallow as they may be) just because you give them attention. You'll be amazed at the difference that will make in your life. Not to mention your love life.

Entitled twat. She thought to herself.

[Shrike]

Don't get me started on the Nice Guy... Every time I see some entitled whiner go on about how he never gets any action for being a nice guy I know that I am in actual fact not dealing with a "decent bloke" at all, but with a Nice Guy(TM).

Now, the Decent Bloke is an all together differentkind of person: just like miss Kitt described, but was too polite to put in context. I have no such qualms, because Nice Guys is a bug bear of mine.

The Decent Bloke treats other people right because he sees other people as people who deserve to be treated well without asking himself "is there any p**n in this for me?

The Nice Guy on the other hand, thinks the world owes him Snickers and women, and gets sniffy and starts whining that Nice Guys Finish Last whenever some human lady he has been casting his Net of Niceness around politely refuses him. B***h owes him after he spent all that time and effort being NICE! After all: nice obviously doesn't come natural to him. He's usually a pompous, self absorbed, entitled whiner who scores HIGH on the narcissistic scale.

If, after this description you have a problem understanding the difference between The Nice Guy and The Decent Bloke then you can be fairly certain in which category you fall.

Out of the three, The Decent Bloke, The Nice Guy and the Douchebag, The Nice Guy is actually the most obnoxious. TDB is the clear winner and preferred by all, not just women but anyone who associates with him. This is why Nice Guys(TM) wonder why the D gets ahead of him. The D may be an ass, but at least he's not fake. He is actually slightly nicer to be around than The Nice Guy(TM). Why? Well, The Douche is a Douche, but he never acts as if you OWE him.

So damn right Nice Guys(TM) finish last. Because a Nice Guy is just an extra obnoxious idiot in sheep's clothing. I am sure he has no clue for himself what an unpleasant character he is, so he is most likely self righteous too.

Learn to see women as... oh, I don't know ... people? And realize that any given woman is not obliged to return your affections(shallow as they may be) just because you give them attention. You'll be amazed at the difference that will make in your life. Not to mention your love life.

Entitled twat. She thought to herself.
But whatthebutlersaw, tell us how you really feel about it :D
I generally agree with you. Any which way you go, staying true to yourself works best on the long run. And that can also mean being an a-hole sometimes (someday I'll tell how Mrs. Shrike and I got involved...)

[Piscivore]

This page (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml) says it all, and echoes WTBS.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Some women have bad taste in men. If you want to manipulate those women into having sex with you then you can act like a selfish jerk and maybe they'll sleep with you. I wouldn't call it ethical but it might work.

Some women have good taste in men, and if you want to form a relationship with them then you should try to be the kind of person that a sane, well-adjusted woman would want in her life. Be emotionally stable, reasonably fit, attractive, cook, have a hobby, have a future and make an effort in the sack. Let her know you're attracted to her and see where it goes. If she likes you too and you turn out to be a compatible pair you can be really happy.

When it comes to talk about relationships the men who make the biggest racket on the internet are the jerks and the unfulfilled "nice guys", because to both of them their success or failure with women is their obsession. The well-adjusted guys that sane women actually want aren't making a racket because they're either in happy relationships, or they figure they will be in a happy relationship soon enough and they aren't obsessing over it.

[slingblade]

I married a nice guy, my second time. No, he's not a rich go-getter and never will be. That's my ex, the one who's only rich on paper, up to his eyeballs in debt, mortgaged and leveraged into two lifetimes beyond his own.

I have all I want, and more than I dared ask for.

[Soapy Sam]

I agree with Kevin; women are not homogeneous in this any more than men.
Some women do find aggressive, selfish men attractive- and often with reason: Such men are often successful in other aspects of life, too.

Being a nice guy is good, but in many cases may not be good enough to attract and hold a woman who seeks both a pleasant companion and a man able to provide well for her and her children.

What I find hard to understand is why so many women seem attracted to violent thugs who have no intention of getting off the sofa long enough to provide for anything. That does seem like an instinct gone somehow awry.

[El Greco]

Much confusion here. By "nice guy" many people mean "pathetic guy". The pathetic guy is timid, insecure, dependent, styleless. There is no reason why a "nice guy" can't be the exact opposite, ie daring, secure, independent, stylish. It's true that a-holes often appear to have some of the above qualities, because in order to be worthy of the "a-hole" title one can't afford to be a coward or a beggar for love. The first impressions usually linger more in younger ages, so this is where the apparent dominance of a-holes will be more visible. However, a really nice guy who also knows how to maintain his composure, (behaves like he) is happy with his life, doesn't plead for love, has style, personality and oozes self-confidence, will win over an a-hole any day.

[lionking]

So there are three (or four?) categories of men ? Interesting.

Can't men be nice, decent and a-holes depending on the circumstance? I know I can.

[El Greco]

So there are three (or four?) categories of men ? Interesting.

Can't men be nice, decent and a-holes depending on the circumstance? I know I can.

Of course they can, and as we all know there is a whole spectrum of success<->failure with the opposite sex. We just simplify and generalize so that the discussion will not get lost in the sea of differences between individuals.

[lionking]

Of course they can, and as we all know there is a whole spectrum of success<->failure with the opposite sex. We just simplify and generalize so that the discussion will not get lost in the sea of differences between individuals.

I understand that, but I think that a topic like this with such gross generalisations deserves to be lost in "the sea of differences".

[Professor Yaffle]

Hmmm... I think a--holes get what they have coming more often than not; and I think most people prefer to associate with people they think are good, moral, decent folk. I also think that people would rather be treated nicely. The "jerk" thing may look good on TV and impresses 17-year-olds, but I question whether anyone in real life would be willing to put up with that kind of BS for long.

I married a "nice guy" -- in fact, I married the nicest, most decent, honorable, and classy gentleman I know. We have a great marriage and a good sex life (it was great before parenthood but--as you parents know--the offspring do take away some of your 'fun time'). We laugh together a lot; we work well as a team; he still makes my breath catch sometimes just from catching a glimpse of him.

The important thing is, I believe, to recognize the difference between being nice and trying to please. Women, in general, like men to be assertive, confident, and capable. Trying too often to figure out what will please others and doing that is a turn-off because it looks like the guy is uncertain and trying to appease--acting like a low-ranking pack member, if you will. But it is possible to be confident, sure of one's goals and pursue one's interest without being a jerk about it.

I think I can put it this way: A-Rod is a JERK. He's clearly more than willing to sell out anyone and anything to advance himself, and he's so emotionally needy that he named all his kids--even the girls--after himself. L-O-S-E-R, he stopped being attractive pretty early on as his phoniness became apparent. Jeter is self-confident, capable, and apparently a decent guy as well. He doesn't have to push himself in people's faces, he lets his actions do the talking. Jeter's hot, because he can afford to be nice; and he's nice because he wants to be, not because he thinks other people want him to be.

Hope that made sense, MK

Ditto, re marrying a really nice guy, and the rest of your opinions.

[El Greco]

I understand that, but I think that a topic like this with such gross generalisations deserves to be lost in "the sea of differences".

I don't think so; on the contrary, this is a recurring theme all over the internet - and not only there, of course. This means that there must be at least a minimum of corroborating independent observations. Generalization is unavoidable if we want to examine the substrates and the cause-effect relationships of those observations.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

His worst showing of being too nice was when he was on a first date with a girl and he walked her into the subway station (behind the turnstile -- he paid even though he wasn't riding the train) and waited with her for the train to come. When she stepped onto the train, he then ran along as the train was leaving, waving through the window at her until he couldn't keep up.

I'm a guy, but this quote from the article referenced in the OP struck me. If a girl did this to me on a first date, my initial thoughts wouldn't be 'What a nice girl' but more on rabbits and saucepans.

[plumjam]

Just be a man.
Grow a beer-belly and rub it with affection and pride. Grow a tache and twirl it for comic/sinister effect. Develop a glint in your eye; if that proves difficult start surreptitiously using eye drops.
Smoke a pipe, preferably a curved one, hewn out of the richest darkest mahogany.
Don't cook. Don't try to be a "new man".
While felling trees or welding ships back together be absolutely careless about your bum-cleavage.
Be naughty without being a total ****.
Above all, stop worrying - if you do that then it's a no-lose situation.
Then sit back and watch the chicks come running.

[lionking]

Just be a man.
Grow a beer-belly and rub it with affection and pride. Grow a tache and twirl it for comic/sinister effect. Develop a glint in your eye; if that proves difficult start surreptitiously using eye drops.
Smoke a pipe, preferably a curved one, hewn out of the richest darkest mahogany.
Don't cook. Don't try to be a "new man".
While felling trees or welding ships back together be absolutely careless about your bum-cleavage.
Be naughty without being a total ****.
Above all, stop worrying - if you do that then it's a no-lose situation.
Then sit back and watch the chicks come running.

This is obviously the secret of your success. Remind me again, how many supermodels have you dated? :)

[plumjam]

This is obviously the secret of your success. Remind me again, how many supermodels have you dated? :)

Want an annual breakdown, or should I just send you the relevant backcopies of OK magazine? :p

[DevilsAdvocate]

on rabbits and saucepansOh my, my. I am, in general wisdom, hip to the shizzle, however I must oblige an elucidation of such colloquialism. :confused:

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Oh my, my. I am, in general wisdom, hip to the shizzle, however I must oblige an elucidation of such colloquialism. :confused:

Fatal Attraction (http://www.imdb.com/keyword/bunny-boiler/) Sorry, probably me showing my age and trying to be too smart, but over here 'Bunny Boiler' has entered the language as a phrase for a woman who goes too far too fast in a relationship, and may not be too stable. I thought the behaviour in the OP quote seemed a bit OTT for a first date.

[athon]

Don't get me started on the Nice Guy... Every time I see some entitled whiner go on about how he never gets any action for being a nice guy I know that I am in actual fact not dealing with a "decent bloke" at all, but with a Nice Guy(TM).

Now, the Decent Bloke is an all together differentkind of person: just like miss Kitt described, but was too polite to put in context. I have no such qualms, because Nice Guys is a bug bear of mine.

The Decent Bloke treats other people right because he sees other people as people who deserve to be treated well without asking himself "is there any p**n in this for me?

The Nice Guy on the other hand, thinks the world owes him Snickers and women, and gets sniffy and starts whining that Nice Guys Finish Last whenever some human lady he has been casting his Net of Niceness around politely refuses him. B***h owes him after he spent all that time and effort being NICE! After all: nice obviously doesn't come natural to him. He's usually a pompous, self absorbed, entitled whiner who scores HIGH on the narcissistic scale.

If, after this description you have a problem understanding the difference between The Nice Guy and The Decent Bloke then you can be fairly certain in which category you fall.

Out of the three, The Decent Bloke, The Nice Guy and the Douchebag, The Nice Guy is actually the most obnoxious. TDB is the clear winner and preferred by all, not just women but anyone who associates with him. This is why Nice Guys(TM) wonder why the D gets ahead of him. The D may be an ass, but at least he's not fake. He is actually slightly nicer to be around than The Nice Guy(TM). Why? Well, The Douche is a Douche, but he never acts as if you OWE him.

So damn right Nice Guys(TM) finish last. Because a Nice Guy is just an extra obnoxious idiot in sheep's clothing. I am sure he has no clue for himself what an unpleasant character he is, so he is most likely self righteous too.

Learn to see women as... oh, I don't know ... people? And realize that any given woman is not obliged to return your affections(shallow as they may be) just because you give them attention. You'll be amazed at the difference that will make in your life. Not to mention your love life.

Entitled twat. She thought to herself.

I nominated this post because I've always had a vague tendency to feel this way too, but never really sat and put words to it. If I were to, these are pretty much the words I'd use.

I went through my adolescent years feeling pretty much like The Nice Guy. The problem was I was so wrapped up in the idea of a girl kissing me or going out with me I missed a lot of fun stuff.

The turning point for me was when I got out and involved myself with a heap of other social activities while simply enjoying people's company. Ever since, I've not gone six months without having an enjoyable, personal relationship of some kind with a girl.

Nearly every person I've ever met who has used the 'girls hate nice guys' line turns out to have some chip on their shoulder the size of a small house. Given that hunk of timber is often visible from space, it's little surprise women avoid the hassle.

Athon

[shawmutt]

Some women have bad taste in men. If you want to manipulate those women into having sex with you then you can act like a selfish jerk and maybe they'll sleep with you. I wouldn't call it ethical but it might work.

Just a caveat--this only really works for good looking and/or rich guys. I am a selfish jerk but ugly, so I never get laid. The only thing ugly dudes can do is make lots of money.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't get the "play hard to get" angle the article talks about. Any time a woman has told me that she's not interested, my response is, "Sorry for bothering you. I'll leave you alone now." Have I been doing it wrong all this time?

Remember you don't know she is serious about not being interested until the restraining order...

[Delvo]

To me, the idea behind the assertion that women don't want a nice/decent guy isn't that the niceness/decency turns women away; it's just that it doesn't attract them either... not that it harms, but that it doesn't help. And the only reason why it gets said so much is in reaction to the lie that it does help because women are attracted to it. Getting lied to can be very annoying, especially when it's particularly transparent. Annoyance at having transparent lies shoveled in one's face can lead to a tendency to protest against the lies.

[Eddie Dane]

As an ex-nice guy (not in the sense that WTBS described), I think that it's about coming across needy.

Needy is not attractive.

[Safe-Keeper]

Haven't read through the thread yet, and I promise to contribute more than this, but Richard Dawkins begs to differ (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3494530275568693212&ei=Pf72SbGJNZmh-AbNyeDJDg&q=nice+guys+finish+first&emb=1);).

[gumboot]

Nice Guys just have to be patient. Once women have gone through half a dozen A-holes and realised how awful they are, they'll be gagging for a guy that treats them decently. :)

[shawmutt]

Nice Guys just have to be patient. Once women have gone through half a dozen A-holes and realised how awful they are, they'll be gagging for a guy that treats them decently. :)

And have the VDs to show for it :) Wear a rubber nice guys!

[Kevin_Lowe]

To me, the idea behind the assertion that women don't want a nice/decent guy isn't that the niceness/decency turns women away; it's just that it doesn't attract them either... not that it harms, but that it doesn't help. And the only reason why it gets said so much is in reaction to the lie that it does help because women are attracted to it. Getting lied to can be very annoying, especially when it's particularly transparent. Annoyance at having transparent lies shoveled in one's face can lead to a tendency to protest against the lies.

If someone said to me that adult women want a nice, decent guy I wouldn't think they were lying to me. It's usually been true in my experience, which is of course limited to a relatively tiny sample of all the adult women in the world.

[fuelair]

It's a nice sentiment, but sadly as far as I've seen it's simply not true. The only time A-holes get what's coming to them is when they encounter a bigger A-hole.Or a person who is nice, because he/she prefers that, but is not when forced to be otherwise. Most people I meet like me, find me friendly and helpful - it's my preference. People who behaved otherwise, found their head over a toilet bowl - as I was deciding whether they had learned a valuable lesson or not (he had), their knee in intense pain -which I helped fix (he learned) and related. Contrary to some belief here, knowing how and what to do when rectums present does not make you a bad person. I just don't like being attacked. As I have said many times: most of us want to just have a decent chance to be happy and get on with our lives.

[Autolite]

Can't men be nice, decent and a-holes depending on the circumstance? I know I can.

Bingo! Nail on the head!

That's the secret. Women are attracted to 'a-holes' because they are assertive and aggressive. Characteristics associated with being a good provider and protector. It's only natural for females to be attracted to these personality traits in a male.

OTOH, problems arise when the male doesn't know when to turn off the 'a-hole' switch. Women expect the male to be the nice guy with them but act like the a-hole when dealing with everyone else. The relationship heads south once the female realizes that the guy is an 'a-hole' 24/7...

[fuelair]

I married a nice guy, my second time. No, he's not a rich go-getter and never will be. That's my ex, the one who's only rich on paper, up to his eyeballs in debt, mortgaged and leveraged into two lifetimes beyond his own.

I have all I want, and more than I dared ask for.
Happy is good:)

[ImaginalDisc]

Don't get me started on the Nice Guy... Every time I see some entitled whiner go on about how he never gets any action for being a nice guy I know that I am in actual fact not dealing with a "decent bloke" at all, but with a Nice Guy(TM).

Now, the Decent Bloke is an all together differentkind of person: just like miss Kitt described, but was too polite to put in context. I have no such qualms, because Nice Guys is a bug bear of mine.

The Decent Bloke treats other people right because he sees other people as people who deserve to be treated well without asking himself "is there any p**n in this for me?

The Nice Guy on the other hand, thinks the world owes him Snickers and women, and gets sniffy and starts whining that Nice Guys Finish Last whenever some human lady he has been casting his Net of Niceness around politely refuses him. B***h owes him after he spent all that time and effort being NICE! After all: nice obviously doesn't come natural to him. He's usually a pompous, self absorbed, entitled whiner who scores HIGH on the narcissistic scale.

If, after this description you have a problem understanding the difference between The Nice Guy and The Decent Bloke then you can be fairly certain in which category you fall.

Out of the three, The Decent Bloke, The Nice Guy and the Douchebag, The Nice Guy is actually the most obnoxious. TDB is the clear winner and preferred by all, not just women but anyone who associates with him. This is why Nice Guys(TM) wonder why the D gets ahead of him. The D may be an ass, but at least he's not fake. He is actually slightly nicer to be around than The Nice Guy(TM). Why? Well, The Douche is a Douche, but he never acts as if you OWE him.

So damn right Nice Guys(TM) finish last. Because a Nice Guy is just an extra obnoxious idiot in sheep's clothing. I am sure he has no clue for himself what an unpleasant character he is, so he is most likely self righteous too.

Learn to see women as... oh, I don't know ... people? And realize that any given woman is not obliged to return your affections(shallow as they may be) just because you give them attention. You'll be amazed at the difference that will make in your life. Not to mention your love life.

Entitled twat. She thought to herself.

Nominated.

ETA: I have no dating/relationship/whathaveyou advice to share. And when I read things such as "That's the secret. Women are attracted to 'a-holes' because they are assertive and aggressive. Characteristics associated with being a good provider and protector. Its only natural for females to be attracted to these personality traits in a male," and "Grow a beer-belly and rub it with affection and pride. Grow a tache [sic] and twirl it for comic/sinister effect," I get the impression most of you don't either.

Look, here's a rule of thumb, before giving advice ask yourself the following questions:

1) Do I know what the **** I'm talking about?

2) Can I provide supporting evidence?

If the answer to either or both questions is "No," don't give any advice. At best you're running your mouth for for one's benefit and at worst you're leading someone astray.

/Rant

[shawmutt]

Hmm...maybe "nice guys" are not attracted to "nice girls"--instead "nice guys" are attracted to the girls who want "bad boys", which means...

...oh, dammit, here comes that headache again...where's the Tylenol?

[El Greco]

More confusion ensues in the thread.

*Sigh*

[Cleon]

Sounds like the only difference between a Nice Guy and a Decent Bloke is that the Decent Bloke never complains about not getting laid.


Frankly, on this subject, the stronger an opinion someone has, the more full of **** I think they are. There is nothing in this thread - and I mean nothing - but confirmation bias all around.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Sounds like the only difference between a Nice Guy and a Decent Bloke is that the Decent Bloke never complains about not getting laid.


Frankly, on this subject, the stronger an opinion someone has, the more full of **** I think they are. There is nothing in this thread - and I mean nothing - but confirmation bias all around.

I suspect this may be one of those Godelian propositions where there is a truth to it, but the truth is not provable.

[bpesta22]

Frankly, on this subject, the stronger an opinion someone has, the more full of **** I think they are. There is nothing in this thread - and I mean nothing - but confirmation bias all around.

And just how have you confirmed this?

-meant nicely.

[Cleon]

And just how have you confirmed this?

-meant nicely.

Did you miss the "and I mean nothing" part? :p

-taken with humor.

[Autolite]

Look, here's a rule of thumb, before giving advice ask yourself the following questions:

1) Do I know what the **** I'm talking about?

2) Can I provide supporting evidence?

If the answer to either or both questions is "No," don't give any advice. At best you're running your mouth for for one's benefit and at worst you're leading someone astray.

Well okay then. :D

I will elaborate by citing personal experience. A few years years ago I was in, what I thought to be, a serious relationship. I worked the 'nice guy' angle ad naseaum. Not too difficult because I pretty much fit the nice guy 'whiner' profile naturally. Always did what she wanted to do, never complained and avoided all confrontation. Bent over back-wards to fulfill her every whim or need.

Anyhow, while away from home on a work assignment, she dumped me like a paper bag of fresh dog ****! Totally blindsided me! Never saw it coming.

The worst of it is that I was ditched for the biggest 'a-hole' in our social circle. I could have understood it if she had went for someone with more money or someone better looking, but that wasn't the case. The only difference being that this guy was an obnoxious, ambitious, back stabbing, arrogant a-hole and I wasn't. This guy actually had 'a-hole' tattooed on his forehead if you actually bothered to look close enough.

In any case, she married this guy and went for the divorce a couple of years later. He didn't know when to turn off the a-hole 'switch'. It turns out that she grew tired of the constant beatings and abuse.

I suppose it might be fair to say that they each got what they deserved. She wanted an a-hole and an a-hole is what she got. It was his second divorce so now he's saddled with support payments to two ex-wives for a few good more years to come.

But hey, don't pay any attention to what I might have to say on the topic. I can only speak from direct personal experience and observation... :D

[bpesta22]

Did you miss the "and I mean nothing" part? :p

-taken with humor.

Cleon; you have 12k posts and I don't know if you are an XX or an XY. Spill the beans? And, what are you wearing?

[Morrigan]

Obligatory:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8803/sp02142004rf9.gif

[Cleon]

Cleon; you have 12k posts and I don't know if you are an XX or an XY. Spill the beans?

I'm a guy.

(Whether I qualify as a Nice Guy, Decent Bloke, or Royal Douche depends on the person talking about me, I suppose.)


And, what are you wearing?More than you. :p

[bpesta22]

Damn, as I suspected, it's a nice guy sausage fest in here.

[Cleon]

Damn, as I suspected, it's a nice guy sausage fest in here.

I think I've just been insulted...

[bpesta22]

Don't be so sensitive; chicks won't copulate with the overly-sensitive. Hold it in and develop coronary disease. Most ladies swoon over triple bypass kinda guys.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Damn, as I suspected, it's a nice guy sausage fest in here.

There's nothing wrong with nice guy sausage.

[NewtonTrino]

It's obviously a generalization but what woman would want to date a pansy? Of course having a type-A personality is going to make you IN GENERAL more attractive to women.

Money helps tremendously as well. Again I'm generalizing here but it's true.

<NT heads off to beat his woman...>

[Professor Yaffle]

It's obviously a generalization but what woman would want to date a pansy? Of course having a type-A personality is going to make you IN GENERAL more attractive to women.

Money helps tremendously as well. Again I'm generalizing here but it's true.

<NT heads off to beat his woman...>

???It seems to have passed me by that the opposite of being a jerk is being a wimp.

[mazyloron]

???It seems to have passed me by that the opposite of being a jerk is being a wimp.

As I understand it, those are the options: selfish, arrogant, abusive jerk or spineless, whiny doormat. Please support the false dichotomy.

Personally, since there are ladies that go for both types, I'm trying to be an arrogant, whiny, abusive doormat. That should either make me attractive to all women, or shunned by every last one of 'em. We'll see how it goes.

[Professor Yaffle]

Call me naive, but I have found that if you just be yourself, you will attract people who like people like you. If you put on an act, you will attract a different sort of person who will then dump you when they find out it is all an act.

[Nursefoxfire]

Everything you always wanted to know about: "Why do nice guys get dumped and women always choose Outlaw Bikers over them?" can be explained by The Ladder Theory.

http://www.laddertheory.com/

As a female I was prepared to be all defensive when I read about it, but it's quite sound. People really DO slot each other into ascending steps of attractiveness, and women really DO like the persona of the Outlaw Biker.

[Cavemonster]

Call me naive, but I have found that if you just be yourself, you will attract people who like people like you. If you put on an act, you will attract a different sort of person who will then dump you when they find out it is all an act.

I generally take issue with the after-school special logic of "Just be yourself"

We regulate our personality in many many ways depending on who we're around. Sometimes it's deliberate, more often it's less so.

You're going to speak and act differently when you're around your grandmother and her friends then you will playing poker with your buddies.

Which one is the real you?

There is something wrong with creating a very deliberate fake persona, but the line between that and being thoughtful about your behavior in a given situation is a fuzzy one.

[mazyloron]

Call me naive, but I have found that if you just be yourself, you will attract people who like people like you. If you put on an act, you will attract a different sort of person who will then dump you when they find out it is all an act.

Assuming that you are who you want to be, then this is good advice. Also, assuming that you like the kind of people who like people like you. Which is not the case for some people. (How's that for vague?)

Of course, both of the above issues would be internal, not external problems. But, it's easier to blame the outside world than to address one's own issues.

For example: I know exactly why I don't get any. It's generally not other people who are the problem. And, even if they are, whining about it doesn't make me MORE attractive to anyone. If it were a big enough deal to me, I would do something about it. But I don't, so clearly it doesn't seem to be a big enough priority to be worth fixing at this time.
</uncalled for introspection>

Also: Ladder Theory is both funny and reasonably true, even though it fully supports the Nice Guy (TM) whining.

[technoextreme]

Call me naive, but I have found that if you just be yourself, you will attract people who like people like you. If you put on an act, you will attract a different sort of person who will then dump you when they find out it is all an act.
OOoo great. There is hope for the mad scientist who might just be able to take over the world demographic.

[Cayvmann]

Let me see if I have this straight... Ahem, "Waaaaaaaaaah!!!!!"

That about cover it?

[El Greco]

Everything you always wanted to know about: "Why do nice guys get dumped and women always choose Outlaw Bikers over them?" can be explained by The Ladder Theory.

http://www.laddertheory.com/

As a female I was prepared to be all defensive when I read about it, but it's quite sound. People really DO slot each other into ascending steps of attractiveness, and women really DO like the persona of the Outlaw Biker.

Very much true. People do that all the time, and not only when it comes to dating or relationships.

The thing is that there are many people who see or experience the "nice guy vs a-hole" problem, and the trilemma Nice Guy/Decent Bloke/Royal Douche, as described above, leaves them with few answers: Either they are bad (Royal Douche)/emetic (Nice Guy) or they are perfectly ok Decent Blokes who have successes but just don't know it and they keep imagining things.

[Morrigan]

As a female I was prepared to be all defensive when I read about it, but it's quite sound.
No, it's really not, and if you're a female who thinks it is, then I suppose you'll get the mistreating douche you deserve.

[Almo]

I had once had Nice Guy problem. I did eventually find a very interesting, intelligent and pretty girl to marry. But it was a long, hard haul with very little in the way of dating on the way. Part of that was me not knowing how to play the game and missing the clues when I was hit on. Another part of it was that I was Nice, and that didn't seem to be what many girls were looking for. I saw them turn me down, then go off with some "baseball-hat guy" (as I called them). Over and over and over again.

Accusing anyone who says "I have the Nice Guy" problem of being a whiner is wrong. Some may be that way, but it's not always that way. That's like a guy in one of my classes who had a strong immune system said, "being sick is all in your head. I never get sick because I have a good attitude."

[I Ratant]

So there are three (or four?) categories of men ? Interesting.

Can't men be nice, decent and a-holes depending on the circumstance? I know I can.
.
Me, too.

[Autolite]

Personally, since there are ladies that go for both types, I'm trying to be an arrogant, whiny, abusive doormat.

Actually, that's the ticket! As Lionking has already pointed out, woman want both! You've just got know when to turn the respective modes on and off. Although, with this being the case, mind reading ability is a definite asset... :D

[Fnord]

From my personal lexicon of femspeak:

When she says: "I think you're a really nice guy, and I'm only interested in you as a friend."

She really means: "I think you're gay, and you'd only be interested in me as a beard."

Being kind, good-natured, attentive, witty, and a nice dresser with good hygeine seems to show up on many women's "Gay-dar" in a big way, while being rude, crude, inattentive, vulgar, and something of a slob with the aroma of sweat seems more likely to trigger the "urge to merge" in women.

But that's just my opinion.

[GreNME]

No, it's really not, and if you're a female who thinks it is, then I suppose you'll get the mistreating douche you deserve.

As I said in the other thread, it is sound under a certain set of conditions, and the Nice Guy Syndrome is one of those conditions where it definitely applies. It has to do with either the misrepresenting of intentions or the dishonesty to the other person or one's self where the motivations lie, and in cases where neither are exactly clear the Ladder Theory definitely comes into play in the predictive sense. What can totally blow the Ladder Theory out of the water is when people don't fit stereotypical models of behavior and they have the sense of mind to be honest about their intentions overall (which can and does happen). Now, an argument against whether the former or the latter is more prevalent is another story, and I fall into the camp that finds the former more prevalent currently.

[mazyloron]

Actually, that's the ticket! As Lionking has already pointed out, woman want both! You've just got know when to turn the respective modes on and off. Although, with this being the case, mind reading ability is a definite asset... :D

So, you're saying I'll have to develop psychic powers if I ever plan on getting laid?

Thanks?

Though, I guess the million bucks would help with that. I'd certainly have no excuses left if I could read minds AND I were a millionaire. ;)

[Starthinker]

Wow, just got back and was surprised to see this have so many posts. Let me clarify a few things. I'm not a whimpy, dependent, needy guy. I'm nice. The last woman I dated woke up every morning to breakfast cooking. I made her tea, I cleaned for her, I took her places where she wanted to go, and showered her with gifts, some very expensive. We talked about things like old movies, why religion is bad, how to find a decent club in NYC, and where do deer go in the winter. It was a great relationship but we were just too far apart and so called it quits. Now, a year later she still calls me for advice and she always talks about the current guy she's dating in terms of me. Like, "He didn't wait for a cab for me, you'd never do that" or "he doesn't like it when I call him at 2am because I can't sleep, but you're always there for me" or even more intimate things like "no one has ever touched my neck the way you did, I miss that." And when she breaks up with a guy the comparisons really fly. I made her laugh all the time. Many people have said I have great sense of humor. But no, I'm not the one.

My ex wife of 20 years has been moved on for almost 4 years now, been re-married for one and still calls me when things pisses her off. She said she left me because she knew the kids were better off with me and she wanted my example to be the one they based their lives on because I always did what was right, and was there for people who needed someone to be there and always stood up for the little guy.

Yeah, maybe I fall for a sob story and maybe I'm a sucker for blond over blue, but I do what I do because I was taught to be a gentleman. I know what it's like to be treated rudely, unfairly, and to be outright abused. When I was dating I never once moaned about anything, talked about my ex, or acted like I needed anything. I walk with women to their cars, or hail them a cab, and I would never say "get it yourself" when asked for something. I work hard for what little money I get, I am practical, I do what needs to be done. Things don't stay broken around me for very long, messes are cleaned up before you know they happened, and dinners are on time. I listen and pay attention, if something bothers a woman I don't do it, or take steps to avoid it. If a woman likes something I'll make it happen at just the right time.

Don't get me wrong, I do say no, when something requires it. I don't work myself to death and if I think something is wrong I'll say so. And I don't think I'm to terrible looking, either. And yes, I'd stand up for them in a bar even if it meant coming to blows or jump a bear for them or anything else that required manly intervention. Whether it sexist or not I was raised to believe that men provided for and protected women. And I will.

But women don't seem to want that. One woman I've been e-mailing from Face Book who started all flirty and wanting to meet me has told me she can't imagine dating me now because I've been so good to her that she doesn't want to ruin that. It's exactly the story of my life. When I brought up the subject of getting back together with the girl I dated last year she said the same exact thing. We're friends now, don't ruin it with dating.

Anyway, I was just posting about an article I agree with, but don't equate me with being whimpy or needy. I wouldn't have chased the train pretending to wave but I sure as hell would have walked a woman to the subway. It's only polite. At the end of the day it just seems she'd rather have the guy that made her walk alone. I don't know why that's the way things seem, I'm just saying I agree with it.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Actually, I find kindness and generosity and "niceness" to be totally attractive in a man.

As William Shakespeare once said, "“Kindness in women, not their beauteous looks, shall win my love. (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/kindness_in_women-not_their_beauteous_looks-shall/146697.html)”

A male acquaintance of mine once picked up on this. He asked me "Gee, why is everyone so crazy for So and So? Sure, he's good looking but why do women all love him? He seems like a nice guy and that's what women really like, isn't it?"

I was startled that he would be so insightful and admitted that yes, we do.

The person we were discussing was a total pretty boy metrosexual type, btw. My friend had nothing but eyerolling contempt for him, though he himself is on the "pretty boy" side.

Maybe the only difference between "nice guys" who get women and "pansies" is that the nice guys are also good-looking. Maybe the a-holes who get a lot of women get away with being a-holes because they are good-looking.

Maybe being good-looking lets you get away with everything, be it being "weak" or being the exact reverse, a complete jerk. Same with women- women can be cruel and mean to other people if they are good-looking, physically fit and full of self-confidence. You can get away with almost anything if people want to go to bed with you.

I ditto the theory that a-holes attract women because of their confidence, assertiveness and strength, not cause women enjoy being abused.

Well, maybe some, in a way, do.

[Praktik]

I call BS on the nice guys finish last theory.

I think it just LOOKs like the a-holes are getting all the women, and maybe they are, but if we're talking about "pussy magnet" a-holes their experience is likely very wide but shallow.

Do you want to leave a trail of confused hearts and jilted ex-lovers in your wake? Is that what the "nice guy" should really aspire to and/or feel jealous of?

Its simple. If you're a "nice guy" you just have to find a "nice woman".

They're out there.

I know, cause I found one.

And we love the fact we're both "nice".

;)

[mazyloron]

Oh come on, this is the JREF. We all know that anecdotal evidence is inadmissible as proof of concept. I want a double-blinded experiment, with the findings published in a peer-reviewed journal of impeccable quality. Then, and only then, will I know what kind of guy to pretend to be so I can get laid.

[Starthinker]

Oh come on, this is the JREF. We all know that anecdotal evidence is inadmissible as proof of concept. I want a double-blinded experiment, with the findings published in a peer-reviewed journal of impeccable quality. Then, and only then, will I know what kind of guy to pretend to be so I can get laid.

Agreed.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I don't buy the whole "women want such-and-such". There's billions of women. I doubt they all want the same thing.

[Autolite]

So, you're saying I'll have to develop psychic powers if I ever plan on getting laid?

Thanks?

Though, I guess the million bucks would help with that. I'd certainly have no excuses left if I could read minds AND I were a millionaire. ;)

Yes!!!

You need to be able to read her mind, know exactly how she wants you to act and when, and have lots and lots of disposable cash!

I can't guarantee you'll get laid, but it's a good start... :D

[fuelair]

Call me naive, but I have found that if you just be yourself, you will attract people who like people like you. If you put on an act, you will attract a different sort of person who will then dump you when they find out it is all an act.
Eminently rational - though I would add that you may also attract people who like people like you because they can use them (how depends on your type and their needs).

[Autolite]

I don't buy the whole "women want such-and-such". There's billions of women. I doubt they all want the same thing.

They all want the same thing. It's just that due to a variety of circumstances, many will often settle for less than what they really want...

[egslim]

The important thing is, I believe, to recognize the difference between being nice and trying to please. Women, in general, like men to be assertive, confident, and capable. Trying too often to figure out what will please others and doing that is a turn-off because it looks like the guy is uncertain and trying to appease--acting like a low-ranking pack member, if you will. But it is possible to be confident, sure of one's goals and pursue one's interest without being a jerk about it.
I think you hit it spot on. I believe women generally prefer an alpha-man, that is, a man who takes charge. For example, compare the following invitations:
1) Would you like to meet sometime, do something together?
2) Are you free to come with me to the movies, may 5th or may 7h?
The first oozes a desire to receive approval, the second is an invitation for fun, and much more likely to get an affirmative response.

The Nice Guy on the other hand, thinks the world owes him Snickers and women, and gets sniffy and starts whining that Nice Guys Finish Last whenever some human lady he has been casting his Net of Niceness around politely refuses him. B***h owes him after he spent all that time and effort being NICE! After all: nice obviously doesn't come natural to him. He's usually a pompous, self absorbed, entitled whiner who scores HIGH on the narcissistic scale.
In modern society men and women have pretty much equal status and power, but in romantic relationships women still feel attracted to men who take charge.

Which is a confusing paradox. I believe many "Nice Guys" - those who finish last - basically treat women the way modern society seems to entitle them to, while women would prefer them to be more dominant.

That makes "Nice Guys" often insecure about women should be treated, ignorant of how the game is played, but not typically narcissistic persons.

[fuelair]

No, it's really not, and if you're a female who thinks it is, then I suppose you'll get the mistreating douche you deserve.There is research at this point (I DVD'ed the show it was in about 2 weeks ago) that definitely supports the sttractiveness (only thing measured in first phase) and effect of perceived wealth (2nd phase) of the ladder theory. I posted it in a thread at that time and I'll see if I can locate again. The basic results: in a group, men and women tend to pair off within reasonable time to perceived attractiveness equivalences and, as part of that move past any of lesser perceived attractiveness and try to get eye contact/face time with those of equal or greater. Women tested with photos of various males tended to rate by attractiveness. However, when the same pictures had data included (false, but...),specifically salary, the ratings began leaning toward finding more attractiveness correlating highly with salary.

[bpesta22]

If we're gonna bring science into it, here's some nice pubs showing that females want the ********* when they're cycling and the nice guys in between. Men, adjust your strategies accordingly (can you think of a nice way to assess how fertile she's feeling today?!)

Abstract:
Recent studies have reported that women exhibit elevated preferences for behavioral dominance in potential mates on higher fertility days of the menstrual cycle. This study was designed to test which hormonal signals may be associated with such cycle phase shifts in dominance preferences. Women indicated their mate preferences for dominant personality traits, and self-reported cycle day was used to estimate each woman’s levels of estrogen, FSH, LH, progesterone, prolactin, and testosterone on her day of testing. Women’s preferences for dominance in long-term mates were elevated on cycle days when estrogen is typically elevated, including during the luteal phase when conception is not possible. Preferences for dominance in short-term mates were highest on cycle days when LH and FSH are typically peaking. These findings support the existence of two types of hormone-regulated psychological mechanisms, each of which is proposed by a distinct functional theory of menstrual phase preference shifts: (1) a between-cycle mechanism that increases preferences for dominance in long-term mates during more fertile cycles characterized by higher estrogen, and (2) a within-cycle mechanism that couples enhanced preferences for dominance in short-term mates to the timing of ovulation.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4W0R39R-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F05%2F2009&_rdoc=18&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235897%239999%23999999999%2399999%23FL A%23display%23Articles)&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=46&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4ef270f97f2d95337affe6a8edfef706



... hey I found the answer to how to tell if she's looking for the bad boy or not, but it might be hard to test in casual conversation:

Ladies prefer really big
pupils when looking for the bad boy:

Abstract

Women differ in preference for small, medium or large pupil-size in male faces (Tombs & Silverman, 2004). We show that preference for large pupils is significantly stronger in women who were tested in the fertile (follicular) phase of the menstrual cycle than in those tested in the non-fertile phase (luteal phase and menses) or those using hormonal birth control (a pattern seen in response to many signals of male genetic quality: Gangestad & Thornhill, 2008). In addition, measures of sociosexuality and relationship status (single vs. partnered), and of attitude to ‘bad boy’ traits in a dating partner, help to predict pupil-size preference. We found that pupil-size preference peaked early in the menstrual cycle, 4 days before the peak in risk of conception, and we discuss the contrast with other cues for which maximum response occurs around the time of peak conception risk.





http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4VC73V2-2&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=24&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235897%232009%23999539995%23857122%23F LA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=36&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0f2252db7cb61ee4c54960e4c486aafb

[bpesta22]

And you can get the bad boy look and short term sex if'n you're willing to scar up your face:

It is widely thought in Western societies that facial previous scarring has a negative impact on attractiveness. However, the specific effects of non-severe facial posttraumatic scarring on third party perceptions of attractiveness are currently unknown. Here we show that non-severe facial scarring can enhance perceptions of attractiveness in men but not in women. We report the results of asking 147 female and 76 male participants to rate the attractiveness of unscarred opposite-sex faces and faces that had been manipulated to exhibit photorealistic scarring, demonstrating that scarring enhances women’s ratings of male attractiveness for short-term, but not long-term, relationships. Men’s ratings of female attractiveness were unaffected by scarring Though the reported effect is small, our results suggest that under certain circumstances scars may advertise valued information about their bearers, and that the idea that scarring universally devalues social perceptions can no longer be assumed to be true.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4TW9WBF-2&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2009&_alid=909659877&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=4&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6fe67d828eaae7194dcb21bc87302869

[Tanstaafl]

Well, I confess I've done a little of the nice-guys-finish-last grumbling now and then, but I never thought it was really all that much of a handicap. Finally I decided to embrace my inner nice guy, and I wrote a personal ad that started "I stand accused of being a nice guy...".

The result of that ad 11 years ago was Mrs. Tan.

[egslim]

Sounds like the only difference between a Nice Guy and a Decent Bloke is that the Decent Bloke never complains about not getting laid.
Which is because the DB is usually an alpha-guy who knows he's going to get laid anyway, if not by this chick, then by another.

[Autolite]

If we're gonna bring science into it, here's some nice pubs showing that females want the ********* when they're cycling and the nice guys in between. Men, adjust your strategies accordingly (can you think of a nice way to assess how fertile she's feeling today?!)

Abstract:
Recent studies have reported that women exhibit elevated preferences for behavioral dominance in potential mates on higher fertility days of the menstrual cycle. This study was designed to test which hormonal signals may be associated with such cycle phase shifts in dominance preferences. Women indicated their mate preferences for dominant personality traits, and self-reported cycle day was used to estimate each woman’s levels of estrogen, FSH, LH, progesterone, prolactin, and testosterone on her day of testing. Women’s preferences for dominance in long-term mates were elevated on cycle days when estrogen is typically elevated, including during the luteal phase when conception is not possible. Preferences for dominance in short-term mates were highest on cycle days when LH and FSH are typically peaking. These findings support the existence of two types of hormone-regulated psychological mechanisms, each of which is proposed by a distinct functional theory of menstrual phase preference shifts: (1) a between-cycle mechanism that increases preferences for dominance in long-term mates during more fertile cycles characterized by higher estrogen, and (2) a within-cycle mechanism that couples enhanced preferences for dominance in short-term mates to the timing of ovulation.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4W0R39R-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F05%2F2009&_rdoc=18&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235897%239999%23999999999%2399999%23FL A%23display%23Articles)&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=46&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4ef270f97f2d95337affe6a8edfef706



... hey I found the answer to how to tell if she's looking for the bad boy or not, but it might be hard to test in casual conversation:

Ladies prefer really big
pupils when looking for the bad boy:

Abstract

Women differ in preference for small, medium or large pupil-size in male faces (Tombs & Silverman, 2004). We show that preference for large pupils is significantly stronger in women who were tested in the fertile (follicular) phase of the menstrual cycle than in those tested in the non-fertile phase (luteal phase and menses) or those using hormonal birth control (a pattern seen in response to many signals of male genetic quality: Gangestad & Thornhill, 2008). In addition, measures of sociosexuality and relationship status (single vs. partnered), and of attitude to ‘bad boy’ traits in a dating partner, help to predict pupil-size preference. We found that pupil-size preference peaked early in the menstrual cycle, 4 days before the peak in risk of conception, and we discuss the contrast with other cues for which maximum response occurs around the time of peak conception risk.





http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4VC73V2-2&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=24&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235897%232009%23999539995%23857122%23F LA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=36&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0f2252db7cb61ee4c54960e4c486aafb

Sure, whatever. The 'scientific' explanation might have merit but still doesn't beat the 'having lots and lots of disposable cash' theory... :rolleyes:

[bpesta22]

Well, I confess I've done a little of the nice-guys-finish-last grumbling now and then, but I never thought it was really all that much of a handicap. Finally I decided to embrace my inner nice guy, and I wrote a personal ad that started "I stand accused of being a nice guy...".

The result of that ad 11 years ago was Mrs. Tan.

Nice!

[fuelair]

I call BS on the nice guys finish last theory.

I think it just LOOKs like the a-holes are getting all the women, and maybe they are, but if we're talking about "pussy magnet" a-holes their experience is likely very wide but shallow.

Do you want to leave a trail of confused hearts and jilted ex-lovers in your wake? Is that what the "nice guy" should really aspire to and/or feel jealous of?

Its simple. If you're a "nice guy" you just have to find a "nice woman".

They're out there.

I know, cause I found one.

And we love the fact we're both "nice".

;)

Actually, that applies to all the couples my wife and I know and enjoy being with - though In a few cases the male has turned out to be a rectum, leaving the wife with no visible warning - invariably another female was involved (and yes I know it can go the other way, just noting the ones of my acquaintance).

[Praktik]

Actually, that applies to all the couples my wife and I know and enjoy being with - though In a few cases the male has turned out to be a rectum, leaving the wife with no visible warning - invariably another female was involved (and yes I know it can go the other way, just noting the ones of my acquaintance).

Ya we'll see how things go, I'm at the age where the marriages are starting to arrive like snow in a Canadian winter.

I guess we'll see 5-15 yrs down the line how many dudes turn "rectum"...;)

[mazyloron]

Yes!!!

You need to be able to read her mind, know exactly how she wants you to act and when, and have lots and lots of disposable cash!

I can't guarantee you'll get laid, but it's a good start... :D

I can't see any possible downside to this. I will begin working on my psychic abilities immediately.

[GreNME]

Starthinker, I'd like to comment on what you said, but because it's so personal in nature I really don't feel comfortable doing so. Instead, I'll use an anecdote from my own dating history.

I was dating this girl for a few months who I was absolutely head over heels for. She was amazing, and there wasn't much that I wouldn't do for her. She even told me as much. Now, her ex-boyfriend who had cheated on her prior to them breaking up was creeping back into the picture, and it would be a kindness in my opinion to describe the guy as a jerk. Self-absorbed pseudo-intellectual-wannabe who compartmentalized any relationship he ever had in order to discard at will was my general assessment. Needless to say, she left me for him. She explained to me that while she thought I was someone who would do anything for her, even pull down the moon and the stars if she wanted them, what she wanted from the person she was with was a partner and not a slave. Predictably, I went through the Nice Guy Syndrome angst afterward.

Since time offers perspective, I can look back now and I can agree with her choice. I've not kept in contact, but apparently she married the guy and they have a kid, and are pretty much happy as far as I know. I don't think the person I was when she and I were dating would have been as happy, and while I don't know everything that she might have been working through herself I know that there were things I needed to work through that were being ignored while I substituted trying to be or do (nearly) everything she wanted instead of taking care of a couple of fragments in my own self that needed a bit of repair. Since then I've had time to work on those things and I'm better off for it, and she's happily married with a kid. All in all, things worked out okay for everyone directly involved in that relationship, as far as I'm concerned.

Another earlier woman I dated was an on-again, off-again thing for several years, which began in high school. In all honesty a lot of things about her and her personality are still in my ideal archetype. Still, I can't deny that in a few of those 'off-again' cycles she wound up leaving me for someone else, without warning or explanation. And in at least one case she came back to me after a good amount of time for protection from a particular jackass she switched to. True to form I took her back and kept the jackass away, at one point taking a cold-cock to the face from the douche and not cracking his skull open with the weapon I held in my hand, all in the effort to show her that I could have restraint and not drop into violence by default while also attempting to intimidate the guy by shrugging off a punch and then letting him know he had to leave (which wasn't a feat... I had nerve damage on that side of my face due to an unrelated incident, which meant anything short of knocking me out wasn't going to register much right away). With another jerk ex of hers I took the opposite route when it was "needed," pushing the guy around in an obvious dominance play (which is embarrassing and reminds me of stereotypical bullies). We ran the gamut, but the consistent factor was that I was always the guy she would come back to, always the guy she would compare to her current or former boyfriends when talking to me, and often asking me why someone as "good" as me would care so much for her.

Time and perspective again speaks loads, and to be honest there was a whole magazine rack of issues going on with the entire relationship on both sides. She too is now married with a couple of kids, and as far as I know she's fairly happy and contented. I can say with a fair degree of certainty that this would probably not been the case had she and I remained together, and while we're currently distant friends (we don't talk often) I'm much happier for the place she's in now than I'd be had we not both been afforded the time to work through that magazine rack of issues respectively. There's no need for "coulda, shoulda, woulda" because we can both look back now and see the train wreck we were potentially heading into and are more concerned now each with the fact that the other has a good and happy life.

The 'Nice Guy Syndrome', due to the inward focus of the mentality being described, wouldn't necessarily look at the situations I gave in the way I've ultimately assessed them. Instead, the typical Nice Guy would focus on the effort put forth being or doing so many things for the girl and ultimately getting shafted in favor of the jerk-off. The Nice Guy would consider the on-off girlfriend to be the One Who Doesn't Get It with regard to how he (the Nice Guy) was the obvious only Right One For Her. The Nice Guy Syndrome turns what happens into a scenario where someone is directly doing the Nice Guy wrong and without remorse or consideration-- which is rarely the case and is frankly quite selfish. It takes complicated relationships and attempts to place nearly all of the blame for things going differently than expected or badly completely on other people-- after all, the Nice Guy is such a nice guy that he would never do anything wrong to her, so she must be making the stupid decisions or she must be getting tricked by that Lying Bastard. To apply a different description to it, the outlook of The Nice Guy tends to be a very ego-centric one where all decisions made by other people are either directed at or ignoring to some insulting degree The Nice Guy himself, where the operations of practically any part of the universe dealing with the desired relationship revolve around The Nice Guy's existence (and the acknowledgment thereof by the other party). In practical terms, it's a very ridiculously overblown and selfish outlook to begin with, and even if The Nice Guy doesn't have that outlook toward anything else in life (which he usually does), this approach to the romantic interest and the overblown list of expectations placed on the subject of affections is a construct of only The Nice Guy's mind.

That isn't to say that I think you're some kind of typical 'Nice Guy', Starthinker. However, many guys have been in situations where a lot of the stereotypical Nice Guy attitudes or outlooks have come into play, even if only briefly or if only in small amounts. The full-blown Nice Guy character is usually quite rare, since the level of passive-aggressiveness required to maintain that kind of character would be exhausting for most people. Learning to recognize whether those sort of things have come up in your own experiences, particularly if the question of "why do women like jerks?" pops up in your head, can help you not only figure out the answer to that question (which is actually very simple), but it can also help you to more successfully enjoy the relationships you do wind up having. It also helps to bolster the natural self-confidence that we should be able to display to others, rather than some faux-confidence that would likely backfire anyway.

[fuelair]

And you can get the bad boy look and short term sex if'n you're willing to scar up your face:

It is widely thought in Western societies that facial previous scarring has a negative impact on attractiveness. However, the specific effects of non-severe facial posttraumatic scarring on third party perceptions of attractiveness are currently unknown. Here we show that non-severe facial scarring can enhance perceptions of attractiveness in men but not in women. We report the results of asking 147 female and 76 male participants to rate the attractiveness of unscarred opposite-sex faces and faces that had been manipulated to exhibit photorealistic scarring, demonstrating that scarring enhances women’s ratings of male attractiveness for short-term, but not long-term, relationships. Men’s ratings of female attractiveness were unaffected by scarring Though the reported effect is small, our results suggest that under certain circumstances scars may advertise valued information about their bearers, and that the idea that scarring universally devalues social perceptions can no longer be assumed to be true.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4TW9WBF-2&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2009&_alid=909659877&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=5897&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=4&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6fe67d828eaae7194dcb21bc87302869
I could have told them that - especially the second part.

[GreNME]

And you can get the bad boy look and short term sex if'n you're willing to scar up your face:

Willing ain't got nothing to do with it for me. About a third of my face is after-market parts, so there's plenty of scars that weren't chosen. Not a great deal of short-term sexin' goin on here, though.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Well, all I can tell you is that I am no gentleman

Draw your conclusions from that

[GreNME]

You've got to beat them off with a stick, huh?

[Praktik]

You've got to beat them off with a stick, huh?

Ya, Bad Boy Tomkins has to beat them off with a stick, while Nice Guy Starthinker is stuck beating off his stick...

sorry... couldn't resist..;)

[Autolite]

And in at least one case she came back to me after a good amount of time for protection from a particular jackass she switched to.

This is one aspect of 'abusive' relationships that I will never understand. A woman will dump the boring 'nice guy' for the exciting 'a-hole'. The a-hole will eventually smack her around and/or beat on her and now she cries to everyone looking for sympathy.

Doesn't work for me. New's flash here lady! You mercilessly dumped the do-anything-and-everything-for-you 'nice guy' for the a-hole. The a-hole turns out to be a really big a-hole and now you want our sympathy and protection?

I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of these battered wives and girlfriends either dumped or ignored 'nice guys' that would have treated them well.

The logic escapes me completely. Even us 'nice guys' have our limits. It's hard for me to feel sympathy for someone who got exactly what they asked for...

[plumjam]

...being rude, crude, inattentive, vulgar, and something of a slob with the aroma of sweat seems more likely to trigger the "urge to merge" in women.

And yet some people still argue God doesn't exist.

[Morrigan]

What can totally blow the Ladder Theory out of the water is when people don't fit stereotypical models of behavior and they have the sense of mind to be honest about their intentions overall (which can and does happen). Now, an argument against whether the former or the latter is more prevalent is another story, and I fall into the camp that finds the former more prevalent currently.
Maybe you ought to stick around people who don't fit stereotypes, then. Just a thought.

Bitches and ********* deserve each others.

Wow, just got back and was surprised to see this have so many posts. Let me clarify a few things. I'm not a whimpy, dependent, needy guy.

Okay...

I'm nice. The last woman I dated woke up every morning to breakfast cooking. I made her tea, I cleaned for her, I took her places where she wanted to go, and showered her with gifts, some very expensive.
...Does not compute.
Sorry to burst your bubble, you are clingy and needy. I'd dump a guy who'd "shower me with expensive gifts" and cooked me breakfast every single morning (or at least I'd tell him to cut it out first). That's not being nice, that's being a clingy, creepy slave.

[shawmutt]

That's not being nice, that's being a clingy, creepy slave.

My dominatrix told me to tell you that some girls like that in a man.

[Ysidro]

Did folks discuss the BS that is the Ladder Theory in another thread? Probably the "Male female friends" one.

Come to think of it, when I had my couple years of Nice-GuyTMness, I believed in the Ladder Theory too. It made a convenient excuse for why I wasn't getting any anymore.

Then I grew up, got over the last chick, and got some again. I'm feeling MUCH better and don't buy into simplistic pop psych theories of relationships. Instead, I now have a girlfriend who talks to me instead of buying into her own brand of pop psych relationship advice.

[GreNME]

Maybe you ought to stick around people who don't fit stereotypes, then. Just a thought.

Bitches and ********* deserve each others.

Everyone's a bitch or an a-hole sometimes. I've been both the rotten bastard and the hero, as well as the generally-ok-guy. No one really does 'fit' into stereotypes, but every now and again we fall into stereotypical situations. It's one of those human experiences where we can tend to find commonality within a given culture. Being that in my life I've spanned a few subcultures I have quite a few stereotypical common life experiences that some people will relate to and others will not. Real people tend to have those types of lives.

Okay...

...Does not compute.
Sorry to burst your bubble, you are clingy and needy. I'd dump a guy who'd "shower me with expensive gifts" and cooked me breakfast every single morning (or at least I'd tell him to cut it out first). That's not being nice, that's being a clingy, creepy slave.

Thanks, you pretty much agreed with my longer post here. Maybe you should read it for more perspective on where I'm coming from. ;)

[GreNME]

Did folks discuss the BS that is the Ladder Theory in another thread? Probably the "Male female friends" one.

Come to think of it, when I had my couple years of Nice-GuyTMness, I believed in the Ladder Theory too. It made a convenient excuse for why I wasn't getting any anymore.

Then I grew up, got over the last chick, and got some again. I'm feeling MUCH better and don't buy into simplistic pop psych theories of relationships. Instead, I now have a girlfriend who talks to me instead of buying into her own brand of pop psych relationship advice.

Err... methinks you missed the point of the Ladder Theory explanation in general, but I repeat that it's not a universally applicable construct even though there are definitely plenty of scenarios where it does apply. If you're with a chick who actually talks to you and the two of you are honest with each other, then chances are you're correct in that the Ladder Theory has no meaning in your life-- which is great, I wish more people would get to that point and make the damned thing completely obsolete.

[king catfish]

Don't women generally get really offended when men pigeonhole them into categories?

[Ron_Tomkins]

You've got to beat them off with a stick, huh?

Have you been spying on my sexual life???? :eek:

[badnewsBH]

Don't women generally get really offended when men pigeonhole them into categories?


No more, I suspect, than men get offended when women pigeonhole them into categories. :)

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Sounds like the only difference between a Nice Guy and a Decent Bloke is that the Decent Bloke never complains about not getting laid.


Frankly, on this subject, the stronger an opinion someone has, the more full of **** I think they are. There is nothing in this thread - and I mean nothing - but confirmation bias all around.

Well, mine is from the relationship border types they teach in therapy, though it isn't technically about picking up chicks.

Sorry to burst your bubble, you are clingy and needy... That's not being nice, that's being a clingy, creepy slave.

That's why I don't do well in relationships :p . Well, at least that's what I would expect I would be like...

Anyway, this is a really fun thread to read :D !

[The Painter]

I've come to believe that nice guys finish last

Yup, that's why I'm in first place!!!! Losers

[bpesta22]

Don't women generally get really offended when men pigeonhole them into categories?

Well, there is a category of women who do get offended when men pigeonhole them into categories.

[Harpyja]

I have dated nice guys - and dumped them when they turned out to be not-nice-guys. I am currently dating a nice guy and am happily in love, despite circumstances that may have prevented this from happening.

In addition - who was the one who would complain if a guy cooked her breakfast every morning? >.<

[Ysidro]

Err... methinks you missed the point of the Ladder Theory explanation in general, but I repeat that it's not a universally applicable construct even though there are definitely plenty of scenarios where it does apply. If you're with a chick who actually talks to you and the two of you are honest with each other, then chances are you're correct in that the Ladder Theory has no meaning in your life-- which is great, I wish more people would get to that point and make the damned thing completely obsolete.

In other words, it only works when it works? How useful... :confused:

[tyr_13]

I have a nice little myspace rant about this, so I'll just post that up. I know it is easy to 'blame' guys for not having good luck with women (obviously there must be something wrong with them right?) but that isn't always the case. Any 'internet forum psychology' applied to specific people will probably say more about the person doing the analysis than the person being analyzed.


"This is for all the 'nice' guys and to the general female population. I know that there is lots of talk about various forms of, "Nice Guy Syndrome," and most of you girls say, "I'd never treat a nice guy like that," but there are some points that need covered. This obviously happens in reverse too (Nice Girl Syndrome) but because I'm not as clear on that (and because I'm not a Nice Girl), I'll stick to the nice guy question. Of course this doesn't describe all nice guys, or all women's actions, but if you believe that you are a woman who treats nice guys…nice… still read on, the reason some of your friends have problems could be in here.

First and foremost, stop calling the nice guys in your life nice. Sure it sounds like a compliment, but in reality it was what you say about someone when you can't think of anything actually nice to say about them. All too often someone that is seen as boring or unimportant is called 'nice' just so women think they are being nice to them. But there are a whole lot of nice guys who aren't boring, and it isn't completely their fault that you can't think of any other word to complement them with. You're a woman so you are a good listener right? Well maybe you are and maybe you aren't but if 'nice' is the only thing you can think about to call a person how much attention have you been paying to them? At some point being called 'nice' seems like more of an insult, like pity praise. This is especially true if the nice guy happens to be down at the time, or you are telling him things that might make him sad. Calling him 'nice' doesn't help then, even if that is in actuality his most outstanding feature. Hell, try something similar to nice. Sure I might be nice, but what about generous? How about compassionate? Ever heard of caring, giving, self-sacrificing, considerate, empathetic, altruistic, selfless, or even noble? Seriously, try calling that great guy who has done oh so much for you, your friends, his family, his friends, etc, noble instead of nice. It's easy to remember because they both start with 'n'. If you find yourself starting to say, "nice," just twist it into, "noble."

But you know what, if you actually think about the person chances are good that they are so much more than just 'nice'. The people who think of me as a nice guy are the people who have tended to use me, ignore me, and in general, did not have my welfare in mind. Even if they were at base good people, they did and said some pretty ****** things to me. All my real friends think of me as, get this, Brandon. They may think that I am a nice guy, but they don't think of me as just a nice guy. Even those who might have called me the, "nicest guy," didn't seem to value that much. Even if I am a nice guy, I am not, nor have I ever been, just a nice guy. Seriously, why would you write anyone off like that? Maybe I'm nice, but I'm also smart. Hell, in some ways I'm god damned smart. My friends know me as observant, witty, and even funny. They think I'm, odd as it sounds, skilled, not bad looking, passionate, strong-willed and creative. There are a hell of a lot of things going for me and if someone doesn't remember it that isn't my fault. They weren't paying attention to the various ways I rock. Funny that they seem to always remember and perhaps catalogue the ways I suck (also various).

Sure some "nice guys," are pushovers. They aren't nice because they want to be, but because they are afraid to say, "No." Some are very scared that you won't hang around them if you think they are anything but neutered, nice, servants. So you might get the wrong idea that all nice guys are weak. Learn the difference. Some guys are nice because they like being nice. They want people to be happy, and enjoy it. They aren't nice because being nice is easy or they are afraid not to be. Being nice is incredibly difficult. These men aren't weak, they're strong. It is the same way with some, "moral," women. Some of them actually have a conviction or personal morality and others are just afraid of being seen as easy. (That is why they act sluttish on vacation when they think no one is watching and they don't have to be afraid of punishment. Guys learn the difference.) If you tend to think in a self-serving fashion (that isn't meant to be an attack I just can't think of a 'nice' way to put it right now) then you might have troubling seeing what is, "in it," for the nice guy. I mean, why would he do something that is difficult, that he might not feel like doing at the time, that doesn't seem to help him but only you? What is his motivation? He enjoys it. Now how simple is that? Being an ******* is easy, being nice is hard. Don't forget that.

Also, don't forget the difference between confidence and meanness. A nice guy might have reason to be mean, or angry, but he doesn't tend to act that way, not out of fear or the belief that you are better than him, but out of simple respect for other people. Feeling that you are entitled to be an ******* to someone just because you feel like it isn't confidence; it's arrogance. Hell, it could even be fear. A scared man has to treat you badly and objectify you. He doesn't want you to know he values you or you might not want to be with him. A confident man will come up and talk to you like a real person. Just because the nice guy doesn't come up to you and say, "You're hot, wanna dance?" while starring at your tits doesn't men he isn't interested. Nice guys don't so obviously emote their sexual desires or attractions because they don't feel that they have to, not because they don't have any. Just because he isn't drooling at your tits or ass doesn't mean he's gay. You know what, gay guys take note too. This entire rant to women could help you out too.

Thank you for your time. Even if you disagree and think I'm an ******* thank you. But don't call me just a 'nice' guy."

[Quad4_72]

Gotta have a mix of both. Gotta know when to be nice and when to turn the ******* portion on. But from my experience, women love confidence in a man more than anything else. My success has come from a lot of confidence not from being nice or being an *******. Take note though, don't be too confident or you might come off as a cocky douche.

[Kevin_Lowe]

There is research at this point (I DVD'ed the show it was in about 2 weeks ago) that definitely supports the sttractiveness (only thing measured in first phase) and effect of perceived wealth (2nd phase) of the ladder theory. I posted it in a thread at that time and I'll see if I can locate again. The basic results: in a group, men and women tend to pair off within reasonable time to perceived attractiveness equivalences and, as part of that move past any of lesser perceived attractiveness and try to get eye contact/face time with those of equal or greater. Women tested with photos of various males tended to rate by attractiveness. However, when the same pictures had data included (false, but...),specifically salary, the ratings began leaning toward finding more attractiveness correlating highly with salary.

So given only photos people tend to rate by attractiveness? I'm not sure that is surprising given they have nothing else to use to rate them.

Then you add salary as well, and see that people start to rate by attractiveness and salary. That's not exactly surprising either.

You might as well give people photographs of feet as their sole data and then conclude that 100% of the tested cohort are foot fetishists.

ETA: From some of the stories in this thread I'm starting to think that the "Nice Guy" story's real function is as an all-purpose excuse for why relationships fail, or never start in the first place, which is then fed by confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as you are enough of an ingratiating doormat, it's 100% guaranteed that whoever she dates or shacks up with next will be a "jerk" by comparison. Then you can make up a self-affirming narrative where the reason she left, or never dated you in the first place, is that you were "nice".

[Autolite]

ETA: From some of the stories in this thread I'm starting to think that the "Nice Guy" story's real function is as an all-purpose excuse for why relationships fail, or never start in the first place, which is then fed by confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as you are enough of an ingratiating doormat, it's 100% guaranteed that whoever she dates or shacks up with next will be a "jerk" by comparison. Then you can make up a self-affirming narrative where the reason she left, or never dated you in the first place, is that you were "nice".

Well in my particular case the gal told me that I was being dumped because I was too "nice" for her. Those were her exact words.

She married the fella that she dumped me for and then divorced him a couple of years later because he beat her.

Now, would you call that a 'confirmation bias' or a 'self fulfilling prophecy' on my part???

[Starthinker]

...Does not compute.
Sorry to burst your bubble, you are clingy and needy. I'd dump a guy who'd "shower me with expensive gifts" and cooked me breakfast every single morning (or at least I'd tell him to cut it out first). That's not being nice, that's being a clingy, creepy slave.

You're missing the point. I do the same for my kids, I do the same for myself. It's who I am. I didn't make breakfast for her every morning, I made breakfast, I let her sleep in, the most I did was time it a little to make sure it was still fresh when she woke up. And judging by the smiles (and other things) she truly loved the gifts. She didn't like dog hair so I took extra steps to make sure she didn't find dog hair. They were simple little things, not big complicated, trip over myself to please her things. Sorry, I just don't buy what you're saying.

[tyr_13]

Well in my particular case the gal told me that I was being dumped because I was too "nice" for her. Those were her exact words.

She married the fella that she dumped me for and then divorced him a couple of years later because he beat her.

Now, would you call that a 'conformation bias' or a 'self fulfilling prophecy' on my part???

I'd call that a self fulfilling prophecy on her part.

I think it should be noted that the JREF is not a good cross sample of the larger society. I believe the men and women with their experiences, but view them mostly as atypical. For example, the women on here tend to be much more self confident, mature, and forward with what they like and want than the vast majority of women I have known well enough to make such an observation.

[hcmom]

It really seems to me that the first thing that needs to be decided on is what the definition of "nice guy" is.

The men in my life that I love the deepest I would for sure categorize as nice, but in no way push-overs.

For that matter, my ex-husband, who was abusive in some respects, would probably also qualify under a broad "nice guy" umbrella.

And then there's always my favorite quote from Despair.com, which was something on the order of, "The one consistent thing in all your failed relationships is you"

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well in my particular case the gal told me that I was being dumped because I was too "nice" for her. Those were her exact words.

She married the fella that she dumped me for and then divorced him a couple of years later because he beat her.

Now, would you call that a 'confirmation bias' or a 'self fulfilling prophecy' on my part???

Given that people are often less than completely honest in their stated reasons for leaving a relationship, if she was aware you had a nice guy complex then her giving "you're too nice" as her reason for leaving can definitely be explained as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[GreNME]

In other words, it only works when it works? How useful... :confused:

No, it works when one or both parties have or tend to have unspoken expectations that are different or greater than the expectations put forth by their words an actions. In such cases, you're damned right Ladder Theory is in play. But that doesn't mean it's an absolute. To think so would be ridiculous. However, considering the differences in expectations from a cultural sense in people today (particularly in Western culture) with regard to the genders, as well as the common habit of people to be guarded or not completely forthcoming with their learned expectations, I would say that the types of scenarios where the Ladder Theory can apply are much greater than the converse. That's changing, especially over the last few decades, but that means the Ladder Theory is progressing toward obsolescence, not that it's already obsolete. Much like the progression of feminism or the Civil Rights movement it's a cultural growth that happens over generations. Also like those aforementioned things there will always be a few throwbacks out there.

It's not some kind of universal law, it's just a social phenomenon. It's one that a lot of people get over fairly easily and comfortably. The 'Nice Guy Syndrome' is an example of cases where people don't get over it and for some reason or another have trouble moving on.

Why is this such a hard concept to accept? People can go through periods of professional motivation and demotivation as well, and it's not necessarily indicative of a personal or moral failing, it's just something that happens to people in varying degrees from time to time. Unlike what the impression the website explaining it (kinda) gives, that doesn't mean it's a good strategic position that some guy hoping to employ game theory can use to get a girl. So, while I agree that it's not a good strategic map for some guy hoping to get a girl, that doesn't mean it's not a logically consistent explanation of a certain social phenomenon.

[GreNME]

And then there's always my favorite quote from Despair.com, which was something on the order of, "The one consistent thing in all your failed relationships is you"

That's a great quote.

Also, I think your bringing up a delineation between the 'Nice Guy' and someone who is genuinely nice is a very good point. The two are definitely not the same, and ulterior motives are what tend to make the difference. A large part of being nice puts you at risk of being a pushover or taken as gullible, and often is the case that someone has to learn how to avoid being a pushover or gullible in order to really be a genuinely nice person. That was certainly the case with me, and I'm happier for it.

[Axiom_Blade]

Most of the hot women I know are with very awesome (and yes, NICE) men. I used to complain about women only liking a-holes, until I realized that all the other guys with a similar complaint were either A) terminal nerds, B) jerks, or C) whiny, creepy jerks (or some combination).

Anyone who tells you they have women all figured out is either deluded, or trying to sell you something. Our society isn't nearly as sexually or emotionally liberal as we'd like to think. However, I am awkward and shy around women, and I recognize that as a problem on my part, not women in general.

The appeal of the "Nice Guy Syndrome" is that it allows you to place all the blame on women as a whole, instead of yourself.

[Autolite]

Given that people are often less than completely honest in their stated reasons for leaving a relationship, if she was aware you had a nice guy complex then her giving "you're too nice" as her reason for leaving can definitely be explained as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Okay, I can understand that. Perhaps I should have beaten her, just a little bit, so as to lose the 'nice guy' persona but not hard enough to cause her to leave. You know, just a little hoof in the stomach once in a while to keep her interested in me.

Hindsight is such a bee-atch... :o

[GreNME]

Most of the hot women I know are with very awesome (and yes, NICE) men. I used to complain about women only liking a-holes, until I realized that all the other guys with a similar complaint were either A) terminal nerds, B) jerks, or C) whiny, creepy jerks (or some combination).

Anyone who tells you they have women all figured out is either deluded, or trying to sell you something. Our society isn't nearly as sexually or emotionally liberal as we'd like to think. However, I am awkward and shy around women, and I recognize that as a problem on my part, not women in general.

The appeal of the "Nice Guy Syndrome" is that it allows you to place all the blame on women as a whole, instead of yourself.

Well-put. Sans the awkwardness around women (I have my own foibles), I feel very much the same.

[Autolite]

The appeal of the "Nice Guy Syndrome" is that it allows you to place all the blame on women as a whole, instead of yourself.

Even though I've been labeled a 'nice guy' I don't blame women at all for going for the a-holes. As I've mentioned in a previous post, it's quite natural and understandable for a female to be attracted to an assertive, aggressive and belligerent male.

My beef is with the women who end up locked in a relationship with an a-hole and then look for sympathy afterward. They wail and moan about how their husbands/boyfriends are complete a-holes and then they expect the 'nice guys' to give them a shoulder to cry on.

Go figure...

[Ron_Tomkins]

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[tyr_13]

The appeal of the "Nice Guy Syndrome" is that it allows you to place all the blame on women as a whole, instead of yourself.

In my experience, the 'nice guys' are the people who are the hardest on themselves and the most lenient on women.

I also think it is telling that people are quick to assign 'blame' to the nice guy, either for being a pushover or blaming women, or blaming women for going for dickheads. All cases are true because, get this, people are different enough that these broad generalizations are going too far afield.

EDIT: I'm saying that blaming all women for going for dickheads is just as wrong as blaming all nice guys for blaming women.

[fuelair]

So given only photos people tend to rate by attractiveness? I'm not sure that is surprising given they have nothing else to use to rate them.

Then you add salary as well, and see that people start to rate by attractiveness and salary. That's not exactly surprising either.

You might as well give people photographs of feet as their sole data and then conclude that 100% of the tested cohort are foot fetishists.

ETA: From some of the stories in this thread I'm starting to think that the "Nice Guy" story's real function is as an all-purpose excuse for why relationships fail, or never start in the first place, which is then fed by confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as you are enough of an ingratiating doormat, it's 100% guaranteed that whoever she dates or shacks up with next will be a "jerk" by comparison. Then you can make up a self-affirming narrative where the reason she left, or never dated you in the first place, is that you were "nice".
Actually, you only commented on the second part and misnoted that. The second part was only women and photo/salary. They were testing within reasonable limits of time and funds one idea about women and response to males. The first, I noted , was groups of real people. Specifically two - one of IIRC 10 females and one of ten males and the investigators had them interact under two constraints to pair off. Since I have it on DVD, I will check within a day or so and provide the experimenter's information and other applicable data.

[GreNME]

In my experience, the 'nice guys' are the people who are the hardest on themselves and the most lenient on women.

I also think it is telling that people are quick to assign 'blame' to the nice guy, either for being a pushover or blaming women, or blaming women for going for dickheads. All cases are true because, get this, people are different enough that these broad generalizations are going too far afield.

EDIT: I'm saying that blaming all women for going for dickheads is just as wrong as blaming all nice guys for blaming women.

I don't want to deny your experience as valid, but in my own experience and in most experiences related to me on the subject, the situation is quite the opposite: the 'nice guy' held unrealistic (and generally unfair) expectations of the women they had experiences with, which colored a fairly general (and typically misogynist) outlook toward women.

But as a general rule, as I covered earlier, the level someone may have these qualities varies in degrees. I've never personally met someone who completely personifies this archetypal 'Nice Guy', though I've heard reports of various veracity. We've all played the role of the ******** from time to time, despite how good of a person we individually feel we are.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Okay, I can understand that. Perhaps I should have beaten her, just a little bit, so as to lose the 'nice guy' persona but not hard enough to cause her to leave. You know, just a little hoof in the stomach once in a while to keep her interested in me.

Hindsight is such a bee-atch... :o

Maybe there were relevant differences between what she wanted, and what you gave her, other than violence on one hand and "niceness" on the other?

[tyr_13]

I don't want to deny your experience as valid, but in my own experience and in most experiences related to me on the subject, the situation is quite the opposite: the 'nice guy' held unrealistic (and generally unfair) expectations of the women they had experiences with, which colored a fairly general (and typically misogynist) outlook toward women.


I'm fairly biased, so I can accept that. Most of my nice guy friends though make the mistake of continuing to think specific women are wonderful even after those women do mean, or more often simply insensitive things to them, something I've been accused of myself. They continue to be nice to these people, who might be bitches or might be otherwise fine people, even though they should just cut their losses and move on.

[Fiona]

So some men go for jerks and some women go for jerks? Amazing!

[tyr_13]

So some men go for jerks and some women go for jerks? Amazing!

I know. Get on the wire, London must know!

[gumboot]

Okay so I have a theory... bear with me. It's based on nothing other than my own speculation and life experiences, with are naturally limited. Strictly speaking I should call it a hypothesis.

In the initial stages of romantic male-female interaction, the primary driving force is passion. This is due to the newly arrived hormone storm that is driving a young teenager insane with new feelings.

Relationships are erratic, stormy, emotional, and so forth. Naturally more aggressive and emotional people tend to fare much better. Whether their actions and attitudes are positive or negative is irrelevant - the point is their actions generate passion in the opposing party, resulting in stormy and usually brief relationships.

For quieter person, they struggle to generate that same level of passion, and may even be overwhelmed by it, thus they miss out on those early passionate relationships.

That early experience is crucial. Those that gain it, learn invaluable intelligence about the opposite gender, which they can use to good effect as that storm of emotions gradually subsides.

Those who lack that experience, meanwhile, are increasingly intimidated by the "mystery" that is romance, and are therefore increasingly cut off from the experience due to their own unwillingness to act.

I think that's how the nice guy syndrome develops, and why it looks to them like only a-holes score the ladies. Now what's interesting is what happens when that dynamic is forming. The A-hole types will tend to expend a lot of their energy maintaining the status that brings them women, or elsewise chasing women. The nice guy is more prone to give up, and will instead turn to other hobbies and activities, which will develop the nice guy into a much more rounded, interesting character.

Eventually most of these "nice guys" will undergo experiences that will drastically alter their attitude towards women. It could be career success, financial success, social success, or some initial tentative relationship experiences that empower them. When this happens they will suddenly rule the universe because while they now have the experience and confidence to chase women, they will also typically be a much better person, thanks to all that personal development they did back when they were a "nice guy".

At the same time, of course, that passion that used to be all that mattered will start to subside, and men and women alike will begin to realise that actually it wasn't enough to have a partner that invoked that passion and desire in you, but that you wanted someone who could be a great partner also.

This is pretty much exactly what happened to me, and I'm glad of it, because I know I'm now in a much better place than those people I used to think were A-holes. I actually feel sorry for them.

For me, thankfully the shift started fairly early, in my last year of high school, because I had a whole bunch of friends. It would, however, be another four years before I'd have my first relationship. My first two relationships were brief, and I ended each because I realised I could do better, and didn't need a girl. Again, huge boost to my self esteem and all of that.

To illustrate my point, all throughout high school I never dated, or even tried to. Didn't ask a single girl out. Was terrified to. Plenty of girls I wanted to ask out. Instead I did a lot of extra cirricular activities. I read. Did theatre. Sports. Wrote. All sorts.

Towards the end of my last year, I got the greatest ever remark from a girl in one of my classes. She was one of those perfect popular girls - both gorgeous and highly intelligent, but also a pretty decent nice person. From my perspective, totally unattainable - as a friend or a girlfriend. I was never what I'd call friends with her, but our circles did cross via classes and school camps and things.

Her remark was in my final year book thing, which she actually asked to sign, much to my surprise. She filled a page, more than just about everyone, and said how much she loved me (not in a "stalker" way, as she explained) because I was so cool and interesting.

It was all of that stuff I had been doing while the other guys were chasing girls that made me cool and interesting, and just as I finished high school that "passion" aspect was beginning to be surplanted as the most important feature, in favour of a person's actual, well, features.

I realised at that point, that far from being the unwanted outcast, I had the potential to be someone that was highly sought after.

[Cleon]

So some men go for jerks and some women go for jerks? Amazing!

Are you hitting on me?

[JimBenArm]

Don't be so sensitive; chicks won't copulate with the overly-sensitive. Hold it in and develop coronary disease. Most ladies swoon over triple bypass kinda guys.
Damn it! I knew the QUADRUPLE bypass was going too far again!

No wonder I still can't score with the ladies. Well, that, and the wedding band...

[Autolite]

Maybe there were relevant differences between what she wanted, and what you gave her, other than violence on one hand and "niceness" on the other?

The post you're referencing was of course sarcasm but your point just underscores what I and others have already pointed out, that being that women want both.

You have to be the nice guy at certain times and the a-hole at others. The trick is to know when to operate in which mode and to what degree. The advantage is still with the a-hole because it's easier for an a-hole to 'act' nice than it is for the nice guy to 'act' like an a-hole.

In any case you have to 'act' in order to meet the female's expectations. Ain't love grande???

[Autolite]

Most of my nice guy friends though make the mistake of continuing to think specific women are wonderful even after those women do mean, or more often simply insensitive things to them, something I've been accused of myself. They continue to be nice to these people, who might be bitches or might be otherwise fine people, even though they should just cut their losses and move on.

That's just the 'love-is-blind' symptom on the NG Syndrome. I'm not sure if they've found a cure yet... :D

[gumboot]

In any case you have to 'act' in order to meet the female's expectations. Ain't love grande???

Who was it that explained that men needed sex in order to feel love, and women needed to feel love in order to have sex, thus the act of intimate lovemaking, fundamentally, requires at least one partner to lie to the other.

(Whoever it was probably worded it better than me)

:D

[Ron_Tomkins]

Michael J Fox says the following about the success of his marriage: "Keep the fights clean and the sex dirty"

I hope that helps

[Kevin_Lowe]

The post you're referencing was of course sarcasm but your point just underscores what I and others have already pointed out, that being that women want both.

You have to be the nice guy at certain times and the a-hole at others. The trick is to know when to operate in which mode and to what degree. The advantage is still with the a-hole because it's easier for an a-hole to 'act' nice than it is for the nice guy to 'act' like an a-hole.


No. You don't have to "be the a-hole" at any time, in my experience.

[mazyloron]

Frankly, on this subject, the stronger an opinion someone has, the more full of **** I think they are. There is nothing in this thread - and I mean nothing - but confirmation bias all around.

QFT

There an awful lot of sweeping generalizations and personal anecdotes running around here.

The problem is, there IS no real answer to this. We're talking about the interaction of (at least) two unique individuals with an unknown number of personality quirks; there's just no way to say, "do X and you will always get result Y."

Nice guys will finish last. Nice guys will also wind up with their dream girl. Women will date nice guys. Women will date jerks. Women will leave one for the other, and vice versa. There's an example of every single sort of possibility just waiting to refute someone's theory, and it happened to you, or someone you know.

I think it's an entertaining topic, but at the same time, it can't be taken too seriously. Anecdotes are entertaining, but are not good samples of the norm - usually, if it's worthy of mentioning as an anecdote, it's abnormal in some way. Advice can be helpful, but it's always individual and situational. There isn't a theory - Ladder, or "be yourself", or otherwise - that works for everyone, all the time.
/Rant

...I'll go back to being new and not ruffling feathers now. :boxedin:

[Fnord]

To Hell with the whole load of "Nice Guys Finish Last" crappola! It has recently become apparent to me that it is not so much "Nice" guys being at a disadvantage as it is "whiny, emo, loser" types that turn women off.

Specifically, I stood up to someone at church (!) last Sunday, and ever since then women from that church have approached me "just to talk" - not many, and not the ones most folks would consider more than average-looking, but ones whose husbands have reputations for complaining about getting the short end of the stick, for putting forth less than 100% effort, or for having to shoulder the greater burden than those around them in nearly everything they do.

Never confuse emo, loser, submissive, whiny, or wimpy behavior with being "Nice."

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Sounds like a rowdy church. Did a bunch of pews get knocked over? Did you punch the guy right in the narthex?

[Monketey Ghost]

Ya know, I've always been mystified by women's attitudes in regards to "bad boys". I started a thread years ago about it, and I think Luciana said something like, "Well, with bad boys at least you know where you stand."

Yup. They don't give a **** about you. That's a great thing to know.

(my apologies to Luciana, my memory is very faulty and I could have the whole thing wrong.)

[Luciana]

Ya know, I've always been mystified by women's attitudes in regards to "bad boys". I started a thread years ago about it, and I think Luciana said something like, "Well, with bad boys at least you know where you stand."

Yup. They don't give a **** about you. That's a great thing to know.

(my apologies to Luciana, my memory is very faulty and I could have the whole thing wrong.)

I don't remember saying that, Magnifico... really don't. I don't even like bad boys. :) Except for one unfortunate exception (short-lived, at least), I've always dated the best guys. :fg:

[Monketey Ghost]

You probably didn't say that. Hazy hazy memory is the kind of ancient recording device I have. :)

[tyr_13]

Never confuse emo, loser, submissive, whiny, or wimpy behavior with being "Nice."

Please see my first post in this thread, it says the same thing in a much longer, convoluted way.

[Autolite]

Ya know, I've always been mystified by women's attitudes in regards to "bad boys". I started a thread years ago about it, and I think Luciana said something like, "Well, with bad boys at least you know where you stand."

I've never considered it a mystery as to why women would be attracted to the "bad boy". It makes perfect sense. As I've mentioned earlier, it's only natural. The female is looking for the protector/provider type and it's the aggressive/violent male that creates that impression.

I'll cite another example. Years ago I had dated a divorcée for a few months. Not yet having learned my lesson, I stuck with being myself. I just couldn't break away from the NG mold.

In any case, after a few months she dumped me and went back to the ex-husband. The same guy who had repeatedly threatened her life at knife point. Perhaps death threats add a certain level of sexual intensity that I had never previously considered.

I am not whining about women going for the "bad boy" because I can understand it. In this particular case, this girl even told me that after her divorce she wrote letters to prison inmates with the intentions of starting a relationship.

As it turned out, she again left the ex and married another fella. I can only guess, but I suspect that even the excitement from the threat of being murdered grows stale after a while. Gals are fickle...

[Professor Yaffle]

For every girl who chooses a bad guy over you, there is some nice girl wondering why on earth you have been mooning after a girl like that...

[chillzero]

Okay so I have a theory... bear with me. It's based on nothing other than my own speculation and life experiences, with are naturally limited. Strictly speaking I should call it a hypothesis.

In the initial stages of romantic male-female interaction, the primary driving force is passion. This is due to the newly arrived hormone storm that is driving a young teenager insane with new feelings.

Relationships are erratic, stormy, emotional, and so forth. Naturally more aggressive and emotional people tend to fare much better. Whether their actions and attitudes are positive or negative is irrelevant - the point is their actions generate passion in the opposing party, resulting in stormy and usually brief relationships.

For quieter person, they struggle to generate that same level of passion, and may even be overwhelmed by it, thus they miss out on those early passionate relationships.



I have to comment that from my own experience, this has merit. My ex-husband was a very passionate man ... and violent, as was my first serious partner in a relationship before him. I have found it difficult to separate the two; that if I want a passionate romantic partner, that does not necessitate a violent nature. Conversely, if I want a non-violent relationship it should not mean the man is by definition dull or passionless and therefore less attractive.

It's a difficult concept to overcome, particularly when fed by icons of romance such as Heathcliff, and all those other romantic tales where the good guy is seen as the weedy guy and is not suitable, but the hero / romantic figure of desire is always a stronger character... shirt ripping, muscular...passionate. Women are meant to swoon at those images, and it plays unfairly to those men who are passionate and romantic, just not outwardly aggressive into the bargain. Those are guys you need to get to know... and in the 'first impressions' game that is a shame.

[Cleon]

It's a difficult concept to overcome, particularly when fed by icons of romance such as Heathcliff,

?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17349f9a0030e74a.jpg

[Autolite]

For every girl who chooses a bad guy over you, there is some nice girl wondering why on earth you have been mooning after a girl like that...

Possibly quite true. Factually, I've dumped as often as having been dumped. I'm a NG who is apparently not attracted to girls who like nice guys.

Go figure... :boggled:

[Wudang]

There's nothing wrong with nice guy sausage.

I wouldn't know. In the UK, it seems that sausages are made from a**holes.

[Fnord]

Sounds like a rowdy church. Did a bunch of pews get knocked over? Did you punch the guy right in the narthex?
.
Ordinary, run-of-the-mill Pragmyterians.

His last child left the church, after all the others had already done so. He is of the type that believes that since he was one of the founding members of that particular congregation, that he somehow "owns" the church. I merely pointed out that his only legacy is one of prideful authoritarianism, and that all of those closest to him have confirmed it by getting as far away from him as possible.

I only said to his face what we were all whispering behind his back. Fortunately, he has no real authority within the church, so he can't excommunicate me. And with his kids all gone, he's lost his power-base.

Ahh ... religion ... :rolleyes:

[Monketey Ghost]

Sorry, I'm gonna be offensive to some: women who choose to be with a "bad boy" who treats them poorly are idiots who end up with exactly what they've asked for, an untrustworthy, controlling jerk.

(my wife says, after I read this to her: "Well, first of all, I don't like it. And that assumes everyone in the situation is telling themselves the truth.")

[chillzero]

?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17349f9a0030e74a.jpg

You metal men know nothing. Go read a book or two!! :crc:

(I meant Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. One of the worst books to give impressionable young teens to read and allow them to form their concept of romance from.)

[Autolite]

Sorry, I'm gonna be offensive to some: women who choose to be with a "bad boy" who treats them poorly are idiots who end up with exactly what they've asked for, an untrustworthy, controlling jerk.

Well now you've really gone and done it!!!

You can pretty much go ahead and kiss goodbye any possibility of getting an interview spot on Oprah... :D

[Polaris]

So damn right Nice Guys(TM) finish last. Because a Nice Guy is just an extra obnoxious idiot in sheep's clothing. I am sure he has no clue for himself what an unpleasant character he is, so he is most likely self righteous too.

Learn to see women as... oh, I don't know ... people? And realize that any given woman is not obliged to return your affections(shallow as they may be) just because you give them attention. You'll be amazed at the difference that will make in your life. Not to mention your love life.

Entitled twat. She thought to herself.

This is probably as good an explanation to the subject as you're going to get, in a nutshell.

Since the underlying theme of the OP is how the subject relates to which men are more attractive to women, I want to expand on what WTBS said about "decent blokes". "Nice Guys(TM)" versus douchebags is a false dichotemy. There's a huge spectrum between those two options, and men who fall between them are going to be more attractive to women who aren't emotionally damaged in some way (if that kind of woman is your type, well, being a jerk is probably in your best interest. Just don't be surprised when you start losing friends).

It's important to keep in mind that Nice Guys are cowards who've gotten that way by, I believe, a combination of risk-aversion, lack of strong male role models, and a failure by their parent(s) to tell them these things. Ladies, these are the guys who make us uncomfortable when you go out with your "guy friend", because that's a common way for a Nice Guy to approach a woman he wants (desperately) to have sex with. It's not that we don't trust you, it's that we know what their game (or lack thereof) is.

This approach Does. Not. Work. And yet it is repeated over and over again. The only reason I can think of as to why has already been pointed out by WTBS said - these guys are oblivious due to a sense of entitlement, probably from watching too many rom-coms out of desperation.

All that said, one thing that can't be stressed enough is that confidence is a bigger attraction for a woman than any material possession (if the opposite is true, don't waste your time with her). This I think is where the Nice Guy/Douchebag dichotemy comes from, because the latter seems to never lack a woman while the former couldn't nail an inflatable doll. Those girls are usually too young (chronologically and/or emotionally) to tell the difference between confidence and unthinking arrogance. Other than good looks, there's not a lot of reason to want a woman like that anyway.

You can be confident and not be a douchebag. And you can be kind without being a snivelling and weak Nice Guy. You'd be that "Decent Bloke", a good guy. And you'd attract a woman worth wanting.

I highly recommend Neil Strauss's The Game. He does a very good job about showing what kind of sick twisted minds become "pick-up artists", but more than that he shows how he eventually built confidence by following his own path of self-improvement (he ended up with a good woman by the end, true, but as a result of his self-improvement, not because of any scheming or strategy). For the record - don't read the book expecting to find out a better way to pick up chicks. That's not what the book is about.

The bottom line I think is that Nice Guys(TM) are simply doing it wrong by overthinking and under-doing by definition. If you want a good woman, stop thinking about whether you should be an a-hole rather than be too nice. Just improve yourself until you're happy in your own skin and become someone that people want to be around. It should go without saying that "people" includes women. Anything else is doing something that isn't you to please someone else. And honestly, **** that.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Be kind to others whenever it's reasonable, bust heads (figuratively or literally) in the rare instance it's called for. That's the best balance, I think. Someone will probably like you, if you're sincere. Maybe you'll find love, maybe not, but that's all part of the journey. Try to enjoy the trip.

[Miss_Kitt]

???It seems to have passed me by that the opposite of being a jerk is being a wimp.

:clap:

[Miss_Kitt]

I have a nice little myspace rant about this, so I'll just post that up. I know it is easy to 'blame' guys for not having good luck with women (obviously there must be something wrong with them right?) but that isn't always the case. Any 'internet forum psychology' applied to specific people will probably say more about the person doing the analysis than the person being analyzed.


"This is for all the 'nice' guys and to the general female population. I know that there is lots of talk about various forms of, "Nice Guy Syndrome," and most of you girls say, "I'd never treat a nice guy like that," but there are some points that need covered. This obviously happens in reverse too (Nice Girl Syndrome) but because I'm not as clear on that (and because I'm not a Nice Girl), I'll stick to the nice guy question. Of course this doesn't describe all nice guys, or all women's actions, but if you believe that you are a woman who treats nice guys…nice… still read on, the reason some of your friends have problems could be in here.

{removed lots of words}

Also, don't forget the difference between confidence and meanness. A nice guy might have reason to be mean, or angry, but he doesn't tend to act that way, not out of fear or the belief that you are better than him, but out of simple respect for other people. Feeling that you are entitled to be an ******* to someone just because you feel like it isn't confidence; it's arrogance. Hell, it could even be fear. A scared man has to treat you badly and objectify you. He doesn't want you to know he values you or you might not want to be with him. A confident man will come up and talk to you like a real person. Just because the nice guy doesn't come up to you and say, "You're hot, wanna dance?" while starring at your tits doesn't men he isn't interested. Nice guys don't so obviously emote their sexual desires or attractions because they don't feel that they have to, not because they don't have any. Just because he isn't drooling at your tits or ass doesn't mean he's gay. You know what, gay guys take note too. This entire rant to women could help you out too.

Thank you for your time. Even if you disagree and think I'm an ******* thank you. But don't call me just a 'nice' guy."

TL DR -- but I'm sure you're a nice guy! ;)