Religious speech and typing

[ziztur]

My boyfriend and I go to a different church every week (we've been to I think 22) because we're gluttons for punishment. We are atheists and enjoy engaging with theists.

One thing we have noticed when speaking in person to religionists/theists, especially Christians (who we have the most experience with) is the ebb and flow of their speech. When they talk about non-religion related things, they have typical speech patterns. When the topic switches over to religion, their demeanor sometimes changes and they start using what appears to be rehearsed phrases that do not match the rest of the intonation of their voice. Their body language also seems to indicate that they are saying something from memory, I.E. they will look off into the distance without making eye contact, etc.

I've noticed this to a lesser extent online, where the sentence structure of an individual will change as though they are typing out religious catchphrases.

I am I just a victim of confirmation bias?

[Marduk]

nope, this type of phenomena is common with brainwashing and brain slugs
check to see if theres an amporphous blob of jelly attached to their frontal lobe, if not then its Gods fault
:D

[ziztur]

It sort of creeps me out. Whenever I am talking to someone and they flip into glassy-eyed pulput-speech mode, my boyfriend and I just give each other a look.

[Marduk]

I don't get why you go to churches though, if you like pain and suffering that much surely it would be easier to just invest in a solid whip and engage in religious roleplay, I know where you can get a backless rubber nuns outfit if it helps
:D

[ziztur]

We do that too. I have lots of fun toys.

We like listening to sermons and then talking about them afterward. I also think that non-theists sometimes get so far removed from church that they are incredulous when I tell them what some pastors will say up there - like we're creating a caricature.

Dawkins was accused of creating a "strawman Christianity" by a lot of people in the God Delusion. They apparently don't go to church enough. He wasn't.

[shadron]

Since religion does not flow logically from one point to another, it must be memorized; it is not possible for it to be learned in any other way for the average, casual user. The Baptists have the Bible, the Moslems the Koran, the Roman Catholics the Baltimore Catechism, and so on. What results in a religious conversation, then, is the committed-to-memory answers which pop out first when a question with obvious keywords are tripped.

Many people will remember "In the beginning was the Word...". For an RC who made it through RC school, it's:

"1. Who made you?
God made me.

"2. Why did God make you?
God made me so that I can know, love and serve Him on this Earth, and be happy with Him in he next."

...etc, through some 1400 or so Q&A didacticisms, written in 1885 by a committee. Memorized. See http://www.catholicinformationcenteroninternet.org/Catechism/Part1/les1.html#RTFToC2. Note that the quote above is the dumbed-down, 3rd grade version. It's the same thing for 8 grades, getting more wordy as one goes up the ladder, and so you have something new to memorize all the time. Religion class was gruesome.

That is what drives your conversation, until you actually talk to someone who has made an effort to understand and draw all the threads together into an integrated whole. Most don't have that drive.

[MG1962]

I am I just a victim of confirmation bias?

I think the answer is a little yes and a little no. You see the same behaviour in other areas, politics for example. If you ever caught a satirical British comedy Yes Minister, it shows just how much this goes on.

There is another issue, and one potentially more disturbing for me as a theists, and that is knowing the words without knowing the meaning. An educator once said to me, you can tell if you understand a concept by your ability to explain it to others.

So if you are encountering thesists who simply seem to repeat catch phrases, then one has wonder how much do they really understand what they are saying. It is one thing to know the words, the real secret is knowing the meaning.

And Shadron

That is what drives your conversation, until you actually talk to someone who has made an effort to understand and draw all the threads together into an integrated whole. Most don't have that drive.

I totally agree with you. Being a Christian does not give you an automatic pass to knowledge and understanding

[ziztur]

I think a LOT of theists know the words without knowing the meaning.

My boyfriend and I often like to question Christian theists about the Jesus resurrection thing because it just doesn't make any sense to us at all.

So we will ask, "why did Jesus have to die for your sins?"

they will say, "because he was sinless"

and we will go, "yeah but what does sinless have to do with it?"

and they will say, "because he had to take on all of the sin of the world"

and we will go, "okay but why?"

and they will go, "because god is perfectly just"

and we will say, "um... what doesn't make any sense."

and they will look at us like we're stupid. Well, except for a friend of ours (who is Catholic) who freely admits that it doesn't make any sense, but he believes it anyway.

[Beerina]

When they talk about non-religion related things, they have typical speech patterns. When the topic switches over to religion, their demeanor sometimes changes and they start using what appears to be rehearsed phrases that do not match the rest of the intonation of their voice. Their body language also seems to indicate that they are saying something from memory, I.E. they will look off into the distance without making eye contact, etc.

Ahhh, the defensive regurgitation of multi-plank* overmemes**. I know it well. They are designed to make the mental model of the world "work" just swell, leading to physical actions that increase the spread of the overmeme. Of particular value are plank memes that stroke the goodness/ego of the believer into thinking what they're doing is "right".

Of course, what is "right" is heavily defined more by feelings of moral approval from others than by actual reality. Certitude is, after all, an emotion, not a logical conclusion. Anyone who's ever seen the bowling ball on a string vs. your nose demo can tell you that. It takes one hell of a lot of self-control to do something that is logically correct, but that is not buttressed by the emotion of certainty.



That they start looking off into the distance is interesting. I would like to observe this effect for both the religious, and the "politicous", given the observation that populist politics is just religion with "for God" replace with "for The People", and "the afterlife will be better" with "your life after the 10 year plan will be better", and no other changes.

One of the most difficult concepts to get across is that whether the planks are "true" in reality or not is irrelevant to the overmeme. Indeed, overmemes may adopt many of these precisely because they work, which is also advantageous to it. But many more do not work, and only sound good, which is to say, work in the mental model of reality rather than reality.













* As in planks in a political platform.

** Is there already an existent term for a group of memes that more or less work hand-in-hand to promote themselves as a group, the way a bunch of genes work hand-in-hand via an organism to promote themselves as a group? If not, let's coin "overmeme", shall we?

[Mr Clingford]

I think a LOT of theists know the words without knowing the meaning.

My boyfriend and I often like to question Christian theists about the Jesus resurrection thing because it just doesn't make any sense to us at all.

So we will ask, "why did Jesus have to die for your sins?"

they will say, "because he was sinless"

and we will go, "yeah but what does sinless have to do with it?"

and they will say, "because he had to take on all of the sin of the world"

and we will go, "okay but why?"

and they will go, "because god is perfectly just"

and we will say, "um... what doesn't make any sense."

and they will look at us like we're stupid. Well, except for a friend of ours (who is Catholic) who freely admits that it doesn't make any sense, but he believes it anyway.
This question of atonement is a biggie, though, and there is no one Xtian line. The Bible uses a few different metaphors for Jesus dying and wiki isn't bad on the atonement.

[JetLeg]

I think a LOT of theists know the words without knowing the meaning.

My boyfriend and I often like to question Christian theists about the Jesus resurrection thing because it just doesn't make any sense to us at all.

So we will ask, "why did Jesus have to die for your sins?"

they will say, "because he was sinless"

and we will go, "yeah but what does sinless have to do with it?"

and they will say, "because he had to take on all of the sin of the world"

and we will go, "okay but why?"
they will go, "because god is perfectly just"

and we will say, "um... what doesn't make any sense."

and they will look at us like we're stupid. Well, except for a friend of ours (who is Catholic) who freely admits that it doesn't make any sense, but he believes it anyway.

What do you think is more rational? To repeat meaningless phrases, or to admit it makes no sense but believe in it anyway?

[ziztur]

Repeating a meaningless phrase is arational. Believing in something that makes no sense is irrational.

[Fireshadow]

Have to agree--knowing that something makes no sense but accepting it as true, ignoring contradictory evidence, is completely irrational.

[boojum]

** Is there already an existent term for a group of memes that more or less work hand-in-hand to promote themselves as a group, the way a bunch of genes work hand-in-hand via an organism to promote themselves as a group? If not, let's coin "overmeme", shall we?

I have seen the term "memeplex" (for "meme complex") used to describe something like this. I'm pretty sure "memeplex" is used in Susan Blackmore's book on memes -- I'll try to check this evening when I have access to the book.

ETA: Wikipedia (for what that's worth) knows the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memeplex

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

A lot of Christians go glassy-eyed and sing-song when asked about their faith for the same reason a fifth-grader goes glassy-eyed and sing-song when asked to recite a poem they've memorized.

They know the words, but there's neither meaning nor understanding attached to them.

It's kind of like the folks who rattled off the Pledge of Allegiance and never noticed the, "under God," bit until you atheist guys pointed it out to them. One Nation 'unnergod'.... It's just a single word to them, just like Elemenopee... you know... Elemenopee, as in A B C D E F G H I J K Elemenopee, is to a slow kindergartner.

(I was a slow kindergartner, but I come by it honest. I was introduced to words, not the letters they're made of, at bed-time when I was little.)

[ziztur]

The other day my partner and I attended what was the culmination of a course on apologetics at a church (they invited us heathens to join) and some guy rattled off, "every building has a builder, every painting has a painter, so every creation has a creator" with glassy eyes. I just sighed.

[shadron]

I hope you sighed loud enough for him to hear. If you broke his chain of thought (generous phrase, that) he may have had o apply some mind grease.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have seen the term "memeplex" (for "meme complex") used to describe something like this. I'm pretty sure "memeplex" is used in Susan Blackmore's book on memes -- I'll try to check this evening when I have access to the book.

ETA: Wikipedia (for what that's worth) knows the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memeplex"Witnessing" is a more common term for it and it is a commonly observed ritual.

[arthwollipot]

Countdown to an appearance by Kurious_Kathy in 10... 9... 8...

[Ducky]

Countdown to an appearance by Kurious_Kathy in 10... 9... 8...

I am of the opinion that the only improvement in her writing over the past 5 years on this forum is that somewhere along the line she stopped ending every sentence with a question mark.

I am pretty sure the content of it is cribbed from her husband/pastor, though.

[BTMO]

I am I just a victim of confirmation bias?

Well, it is a unique hobby - I'll give you that...

But no, I don't think you are a victim of confirmation bias.

I used to belong to a church years ago - and I know *exactly* what you mean.

[SezMe]

Seems like an over generalization to me. For example, there are lots of different types of Christian churches. Do you see the same phenomenon at a fundie church and a liberal church. What about the different sects vs. a nondenominational one? What about a white, suburban one vs. an inner city black one? And so on....

But here's a real service you can do for us. Go to Upchurch's UU church and talk to him. Is he glassy-eyed all the time or just when he's here? :)

[Ducky]

Seems like an over generalization to me. For example, there are lots of different types of Christian churches. Do you see the same phenomenon at a fundie church and a liberal church. What about the different sects vs. a nondenominational one? What about a white, suburban one vs. an inner city black one? And so on....

But here's a real service you can do for us. Go to Upchurch's UU church and talk to him. Is he glassy-eyed all the time or just when he's here? :)

I was under the impression he's always glassy-eyed.

[ziztur]

I wasn't really over-generalizing, I said that I noticed this happen sometimes.

But the type of church does not seem to matter, and we've been to the ones you listed off numerous times.

[gypsey]

Ducky
Originally Posted by arthwollipot
Countdown to an appearance by Kurious_Kathy in 10... 9... 8...

I am of the opinion that the only improvement in her writing over the past 5 years on this forum is that somewhere along the line she stopped ending every sentence with a question mark.

I am pretty sure the content of it is cribbed from her husband/pastor, though.

I think kk and cd are way beyond just glassy eyed at this point, their posts even seem kind of zombieish (my own word:p) and there doesn't seem to be any room for improvement for either of them


ziztur
My boyfriend and I go to a different church every week (we've been to I think 22) because we're gluttons for punishment. We are atheists and enjoy engaging with theists.

One thing we have noticed when speaking in person to religionists/theists, especially Christians (who we have the most experience with) is the ebb and flow of their speech. When they talk about non-religion related things, they have typical speech patterns. When the topic switches over to religion, their demeanor sometimes changes and they start using what appears to be rehearsed phrases that do not match the rest of the intonation of their voice. Their body language also seems to indicate that they are saying something from memory, I.E. they will look off into the distance without making eye contact, etc.

I've noticed this to a lesser extent online, where the sentence structure of an individual will change as though they are typing out religious catchphrases.

I am I just a victim of confirmation bias?

My Husband is a yec fundy and he gets so glassy eyed at times that I have to leave the room and finish whatever conversation we were having at a later time
and it can happen at any time during any conversation because He relates everything to god even such a small thing as finding a penny or getting a good parking spot

gypsey

[ziztur]

Wow. I am not sure how I could be with someone whose worldview varied so much from mine with regard to religion.

[Beerina]

I have seen the term "memeplex" (for "meme complex") used to describe something like this. I'm pretty sure "memeplex" is used in Susan Blackmore's book on memes -- I'll try to check this evening when I have access to the book.

ETA: Wikipedia (for what that's worth) knows the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memeplex

Good, thanks! :)

[Beerina]

I wasn't really over-generalizing, I said that I noticed this happen sometimes.

But the type of church political persuasion does not seem to matter, and we've been to the ones you listed off numerous times.


I'm telling you guys, just as gravity and acceleration are the same phenomenon, and not just similar ones, these are, too.

Both are very heavy on the overmemes memeplexes that build a wild tapestry of doing well for yourself and everyone, and how good you are, and how bad those other guys are and how they are misled by the ultimate bad power in the universe. And neither's mental model has much in the way of scientific validation. Transparently, because that's not what it's all about with the memeplexes.

[SezMe]

I wasn't really over-generalizing, I said that I noticed this happen sometimes.
Actually, you did not say that. Your OP contains no such qualifier and subsequent posts carry the general theme. I could find no post of yours that indicated how limited or widespread this behavior is.

But the type of church does not seem to matter, and we've been to the ones you listed off numerous times.
Very interesting. Thanks.

[ziztur]

Thought I said it here:


...their demeanor sometimes changes and they...

My bad, should have been clearer.

[gypsey]

ziztur
Wow. I am not sure how I could be with someone whose worldview varied so much from mine with regard to religion.

Our views were not always so different and we don't talk about religion ever!:)

gypsey

[ziztur]

Ah, well that makes sense!

I talk about religion a lot with my guy so I have brainwashed myself into thinking other people to too, ha.

[gypsey]

at one time we did the same and I do miss those discussions but he went fundy and i went sane :D

[shawmutt]

You haven't been to church until you've been to a charismatic Pentecostal. Glassy eyes are the least of your worries.

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