is justice a dead concept in the USA?

[Ed]

From a purely practicle standpoint, if the Feds go after you you have three possible outcomes:

1) You match the federal government, in all of it's glory, dollar for dollar in legal costs

2) You cop a plea and go away

3) You use a public defender (see #2)

You really cannot win inasmuch as it is not a level playing field. So, is this intrinsically unfair or not?

[a_unique_person]

unlike all other countries, you get to vote for your public prosecuter, and they are the ones who implement policy. perhaps there is a flaw in this part of the process.

Originally posted by Ed
From a purely practicle standpoint, if the Feds go after you you have three possible outcomes:

1) You match the federal government, in all of it's glory, dollar for dollar in legal costs

2) You cop a plea and go away

3) You use a public defender (see #2)

You really cannot win inasmuch as it is not a level playing field. So, is this intrinsically unfair or not?

So, uh, nobody has ever been found innocent after being charged by the Feds?

[Ed]

Originally posted by LukeT


So, uh, nobody has ever been found innocent after being charged by the Feds?

Naturally. But for an average person, your only choice is tto plea bargan.

[Ed]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
unlike all other countries, you get to vote for your public prosecuter, and they are the ones who implement policy. perhaps there is a flaw in this part of the process.

I am pretty sure federal prosecutors are appointed by ... the feds.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Ed


Naturally. But for an average person, your only choice is to plea bargin. Let me ask this. If they had you on a drug charge and your choice was 5 years or a $100k retainer with exposure upwards of $250k, what would you do? What could you do? You might get out in 2 or be out in 30 lessbig bucks. What would you do, what could you do?

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
unlike all other countries, you get to vote for your public prosecuter, and they are the ones who implement policy. perhaps there is a flaw in this part of the process.

Sorry, but you are confusing state prosecutors (district attorneys or county solicitors) with federal prosecutors (United States Attorneys).

The district attorney is an elected official in most counties. The United States Attorney for each of the USA's 96 districts is appointed by the President, and serves at his pleasure.

AS

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Ed
From a purely practicle standpoint, if the Feds go after you you have three possible outcomes:

1) You match the federal government, in all of it's glory, dollar for dollar in legal costs

2) You cop a plea and go away

3) You use a public defender (see #2)

You really cannot win inasmuch as it is not a level playing field. So, is this intrinsically unfair or not?

Ed,

I don't know what this is all about. When you say the "feds" are coming after you, which federal agency are you talking about?

Although there are many possible agencies which could initiate criminal proceedings against you, the Department of Justice is the only one that prosecutes civilians criminally. The United States Attorney in each district is the prosecuting attorney.

You imply that merely being charged or indicted is tantamount to being convicted, from a practical standpoint. I say no. Criminal cases are tried in federal court every day, with many resulting in acquittals. US Attorneys overreach sometimes, just as state and local prosecutors do. As you imply, however, in felony cases they do often have great investigative resources to draw upon, and often make much tighter cases than state law enforcement agencies. As a result, I would have to say that a federal case resulting in an indictment tends to be a strong case for the government, and thus one usually needs a good defense in order to defeat the case altogether. Also, federal indictments often contain multiple counts and offenses, many of which seem "tacked" on to gain leverage against a defendant.

So some defense attorney quoted you a $100,000 retainer? So what? Talk to other attorneys. I have never gotten anything close to a $100K retainer in my life, and my experience is much closer to the norm than this other guy's. Obviously, the kinds of federal offenses which can land one in criminal court can vary tremendously, but $100k for one's defense sounds high, even for a complicated white collar case.

I tried a very complex case involving millions of dollars in U.S. Tax Court a couple of years ago, requiring the work of three attorneys along the way, and our fees in total were much less than $100k. Our client had previously been prosecuted criminally on the same set of facts for the same behavior, and his defense didn't cost him that much, although it was in the 10s of thousands.

Most federal cases are not vast, complex white collar cases and can be handled for a few thousand dollars, although trying anything before a jury is much more time intensive and costs more. You can even represent yourself (although I would strongly advise against it). You do have a choice. Just seek advice from other attorneys. Find a competent, honest lawyer who has more reasonable fees. Trust me, they do exist.

AS

[Richard G]

A case still has to be proven beyond doubt against you in front of a judge, and a jury of your peers. Plea bargaining is not an option I would even consider, unless you really are guilty.

[Smalso]

A person charged with a crime--in either federal or state jurisdiction--who does not have a lot of money is less likely to get a fair shake. The prosecution has investigators and other resources that a defendant will not have unless he/she has the means to finance them. Court appointed lawyers are assign a fee by the court in most cases which, at least around here, I am told, is less that the lawyer would ordinarily charge; and that is a flat fee no matter how many hours are involved. In most cases, they are not given any money for investigative expenses at all. I think that is a big problem.

I would never plea bargain if I was innocent.

Never.

I also don't have a shred of fear of the feds ever knocking on my door. I don't come anywhere near violating federal laws, nor do I associate with any suspicious characters. My wife and I, and all of our friends, are drug and alcohol free.

My life is an open book. Even if the local feds followed me around with spy satellites, video cameras and wiretaps, with color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was for, they would come up empty.

Live a clean life in America, and choose the company you keep wisely, and you have nothing to fear.

I was once arrested and falsely accused of a crime. That was because I was stupid enough to fall in love with and marry an out-and-out maniacal woman, in the vein of bigfig.

But when you know you are innocent, then you have a huge advantage.

I was greatly inconvenienced, sure. But I didn't hire a lawyer. I would have if it actually came down to a trial, but it never did. I just stuck to the truth, and the other parties' lies eventually caught up with them. It took some time, and there were a few days and nights when I broke into a sweat. And I experienced a hell of a lot of frustration and worry. But the truth won out.

I learned a lot from the experience. I learned the consequences of stupid decisions. I learned to harken to warning signals.

The only thing that pisses me off is that the arrest is on my record. I would have to pay a lawyer to have it removed, and just have never gotten around to it.

[Smalso]

In 1967, I was identified by some girls as the man who was accosting them on their way to school and exposing himself to them. The girls being minors, it was a felony in Florida. I agreed to stand in a line-up. Of the seven girls present. one picked me, three picked off-duty police officers, and the other three said the guy wasn't there. When they caught the guy, he was about my height and weight and wore his hair very similiar to the way I wore mine. His car was an exact duplicate of mine (black 1964 Ford Galaxy 4-door with red interior, quite a few of those around at the time). They caught the weenie-wagger in the act and the PD notified me that I was excluded as a suspect and no longer under investigation. It still scares me when I think of jow easy it would have been to pin that on me.

[Ben Shniper]

Originally posted by Smalso
In 1967, I was identified by some girls as the man who was accosting them on their way to school and exposing himself to them. The girls being minors, it was a felony in Florida. I agreed to stand in a line-up. Of the seven girls present. one picked me, three picked off-duty police officers, and the other three said the guy wasn't there. When they caught the guy, he was about my height and weight and wore his hair very similiar to the way I wore mine. His car was an exact duplicate of mine (black 1964 Ford Galaxy 4-door with red interior, quite a few of those around at the time). They caught the weenie-wagger in the act and the PD notified me that I was excluded as a suspect and no longer under investigation. It still scares me when I think of jow easy it would have been to pin that on me.

Couldn't that happen in any country? Shouldn't you ask if justice itself is in question, not specifically "American" this or that.

-Ben

[Smalso]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper


Couldn't that happen in any country? Shouldn't you ask if justice itself is in question, not specifically "American" this or that.

-Ben

If that had happened in a lot of other countries, I would have been beheaded on the spot. I was fortunate that the detectives assigned to the case were concerned more with catching the guilty person than "closing the case." But there are too many cases in which an innocent person goes to jail because he/she cannot afford Johnny Cochran. If OJ had been Joe Average, do you think he would have been acquited in a nationally covered circus that lasted months? (And is still being discussed.)

[Jim_MDP]

Originally posted by LukeT
with color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was for

Would those be 8x10's ?

:D