More guns make us safer.

[Ryokan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8044229.stm

If there were people around carrying guns, things like this would never have happened. They need to allow military personell to carry firearms.



I feel a bit dirty using this article this way, it's just a counter to the argument that if only people were armed, these sort of shootings would never happen.

[Drudgewire]

Ummm...

The shooting reportedly occurred at a clinic where troops receive help for personal issues or combat stress.


Good counter, considering it happened somewhere most people weren't armed. :rolleyes:

[Ryokan]

Good counter, considering it happened somewhere most people weren't armed. :rolleyes:

I assume the soldiers carried their weapons everywhere. At least that was true when I was in the army. But I haven't been to Iraq, and I've never been to this facility.

At least this guy was armed, and no one thought it funny that he was.

Anyway, I'm not really going to argue this too much. It was just the first thing I thought of when I read the article, and using it this way is kind of low, I'll readily admit.

[Ziggurat]

I feel a bit dirty using this article this way, it's just a counter to the argument that if only people were armed, these sort of shootings would never happen.

You should feel dirty, because that's a strawman for the pro-gun position. I know of nobody who thinks shootings would never happen if people were armed. Rather, the claim is that they would be less frequent and/or often less deadly. A single incident can tell us nothing about the former claim (and even statistics covering multiple instances need to account for demographic differences between populations), and very little about the second one.

[Drudgewire]

I know of nobody who thinks shootings would never happen if people were armed.


Especially in what amounts to a mental health facility.

[WildCat]

I assume the soldiers carried their weapons everywhere.
From the AP:
Soldiers routinely carry weapons on Camp Liberty and other bases, but they are supposed to be unloaded
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hwK_CSpBxsNuVUEaDuOwmSSCiqGwD9849C200

And no one ever claimed that more armed people would prevent these things. It can certainly limit the damage they can do. I wonder how it came to be that he was taken into custody after killing only 5 people? After all, he's a trained soldier with a (presumably) fully automatic rifle and a high-capacity magazine. I'd assume he could have easily outdone the Virginia Tech shooter, maybe other armed soldiers cut short his shooting spree?

[ProbeX]

From the AP:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hwK_CSpBxsNuVUEaDuOwmSSCiqGwD9849C200

I'd assume he could have easily outdone the Virginia Tech shooter, maybe other armed soldiers cut short his shooting spree?

Okay are you serious? Are you really trying to compare several teenagers who never had to endure the stress of combat, to one soldier - trained or not - who is marginally functional because of PTSD?

[Darth Rotor]

I feel a bit dirty using this article this way, it's just a counter to the argument that if only people were armed, these sort of shootings would never happen.
You ought to feel filthy. You were once a soldier.

DR

[Ryokan]

You ought to feel filthy. You were once a soldier.

DR

And having seen what firearms can do, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of civillians.

[Bombastic Penguin]

And having seen what firearms can do, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of civillians.

Excellent idea Einstein! Civilians are just morons who need the supervision of a nanny state. However, in order to be consistent we're going to have to ban cars, power tools, knives (London stabbing epidemic of May 2008 anyone?) etc...

We need more funding for tazer happy police officers, who will arrive ten minutes after I'm raped and strangled by my own panty hose.

I'll just leave this here:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

[Drudgewire]

And having seen what firearms can do, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of civillians.


Since most of my knowledge of Norwegians comes from black metal music, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of your citizens too. :p

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Since most of my knowledge of Norwegians comes from black metal music, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of your citizens too. :p

+5 to awesome for the black metal referance with a multiplier of 3x for insulting Norway, Black Metal, and excellent use of derision. :D

[Quad4_72]

You ought to feel filthy. You were once a soldier.

DR

So being a soldier means one is filthy?

[Quad4_72]

And having seen what firearms can do, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of civillians.

Me personally, I would prefer to keep them out of the hands of criminals. Responsible civilians have every right to have firearms.

[SezMe]

After all, he's a trained soldier with a (presumably) fully automatic rifle and a high-capacity magazine. I'd assume he could have easily outdone the Virginia Tech shooter, maybe other armed soldiers cut short his shooting spree?
I've looked about a bit and can find no information on the weapon he used. The only reference close to the question said that he had had his own personal weapon taken away from him earlier in the day and had gotten another one later and returned to the scene. It could have been a small capacity sidearm, not a rifle. Yes, I note you careful use of the word "presumably". I also could not find out how the incident came to a close.

I think the gun aspect of this is secondary to the mental health one. Over the next decades PTSD ex-military are going to go over the edge and commit murder. I sure hope the VA has the necessary resources to effectively confront the problem.

[WildCat]

I've looked about a bit and can find no information on the weapon he used. The only reference close to the question said that he had had his own personal weapon taken away from him earlier in the day and had gotten another one later and returned to the scene. It could have been a small capacity sidearm, not a rifle. Yes, I note you careful use of the word "presumably". I also could not find out how the incident came to a close.
Yeah I just read that myself. They took away his gun but in a wartime military base there's planty of others lying around for the taking. Short of locking him up I don't see what could have been done.

[Quad4_72]

Yeah I just read that myself. They took away his gun but in a wartime military base there's planty of others lying around for the taking. Short of locking him up I don't see what could have been done.

There actually should NOT be plenty of weapons just "lying" around. Each soldier keeps personal accountability of his weapon and should never let it get more than arms length away from him. Any others should be locked up in an arms room. But obviously he did find a weapon so maybe there was a gun being unattended somewhere.

[Praktik]

Since most of my knowledge of Norwegians comes from black metal music, I'd prefer to keep them out of the hands of your citizens too. :p

They've actually got a pretty great tech-house vibe emanating from Oslo these days - definitely punching above their weight!

[SezMe]

But obviously he did find a weapon so maybe there was a gun being unattended somewhere.
Latest article I read said he was being escorted away from the facility after a confrontation and overwhelmed the escort, took his weapon, forced him out of the vehicle and drove back to commit carnage.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

So being a soldier means one is filthy?



I think you're misunderstanding. He is saying that a former soldier should feel dirty using a military tragedy to score cheap gun control points.

[joobie]

Good counter, considering it happened somewhere most people weren't armed. :rolleyes:

my guess is that no matter where a shooting happens, most people won't be armed. of course, i have no evidence for this...but how many people do you know that carry all the time?

[joobie]

Me personally, I would prefer to keep them out of the hands of criminals. Responsible civilians have every right to have firearms.

in my experience, most civillians are criminals. let me ask you, do you ever exceed the speed limit?

OK, i realize that was unneccessarily sarcastic.

[Ziggurat]

in my experience, most civillians are criminals. let me ask you, do you ever exceed the speed limit?

OK, i realize that was unneccessarily sarcastic.

It's also wrong. Speeding is not a crime, it's an infraction. Which is why you're not entitled to a jury trial if you contest a ticket.

[WildCat]

There actually should NOT be plenty of weapons just "lying" around. Each soldier keeps personal accountability of his weapon and should never let it get more than arms length away from him. Any others should be locked up in an arms room. But obviously he did find a weapon so maybe there was a gun being unattended somewhere.
By "lying around" I just mean they're there for the taking if one wants it badly enough. Not that they're literally just lying around like an MP-40 in Call of Duty.