Courage and stupidity...

[sorgoth]

What is the difference? Are they both the same thing, except that it's called courage if it helps a lot of people?

[EdipisReks]

Originally posted by sorgoth
What is the difference? Are they both the same thing, except that it's called courage if it helps a lot of people?

did you try the dictionary? Courage. (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=courage) Stupidity. (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stupidity)

[jimmygun]

I would define courage as knowing the dangers and still acting. I would define stupidity as panic which causes the situation to worsen. For example, diving in to save someone from drowning could be both courageous or stupid, courageous if you decide the risk of you drowning is worth the attempt to save someone, stupid if you just jump in without thinking and cause more risk.

It has been my opinion that the number one cause of accidental death in North America is panic. I have seen so many instances that ended in harm or tragedy simply because the person panicked. Cool heads and training over come panic and usually result in more favourable conditions.

[The Don]

Maybe it's to do with risk assessment. The Victoria Cross is the Commonweath's (nee. Empire) highest award for military gallantry.

In the award criteria it distinguishes between acts of bravery and stupidity by insisting that although the recipient must have carried out the deed for which they are being awarded the medal with no concern for their own safety (which is why pilots who bravely bring a crippled bomber back with all crew din't get them (self interest)), they must have assessed the risks and deemed that they were worth taking:

Courage - Putting oneself in danger having considered the risks
Stupidity - Blundering in any old how



Victoria cross information:
http://www.victoriacross.net/Default.asp

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by The Don

Victoria cross information:
http://www.victoriacross.net/Default.asp

Also, it helps a lot if you are an officer- preferably a dashing young leutenant fresh from public school.

(filthy squaddies arent capable, d'ye'see!)

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by sorgoth
What is the difference? Are they both the same thing, except that it's called courage if it helps a lot of people?

courage=Seeking to help another or others and or doing what is good and right and helpful for the simple reason these people need help and the help is what they need not what you believe they need.

stupidity= Looking to "be a hero" or to interfear in the lives of others for a self desire, need or to "look good".

Just what I believe.

[BillyTK]

Anyone ever actually paid attention to airplane emergency procedures? Well I do, and I thought the instructions for using oxygen masks were kind of interesting-basically, if you've got kids, put your own mask on first, then attend to your kid's. It's nati-intuitive in that we tend to think of putting children's welfare before our own. In fact we often reward such behaviour as courageous. But in this instance, the courageous thing is to ignore the kid (well, you might have to hang on to it by the ankle if there's explosive decompression of something) and sort yourself out because you're no good to the kid if you're suffering from oxygen deprivation.

Um, there seemed to be a point in all this before I started writing...

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Anyone ever actually paid attention to airplane emergency procedures? Well I do, and I thought the instructions for using oxygen masks were kind of interesting-basically, if you've got kids, put your own mask on first, then attend to your kid's. It's nati-intuitive in that we tend to think of putting children's welfare before our own. In fact we often reward such behaviour as courageous. But in this instance, the courageous thing is to ignore the kid (well, you might have to hang on to it by the ankle if there's explosive decompression of something) and sort yourself out because you're no good to the kid if you're suffering from oxygen deprivation.

Um, there seemed to be a point in all this before I started writing... :clap:

[LW]

Sometimes it is very difficult to distinguish between courage and stupidity. They both may be present at the same time in the same person.

One extreme example of this is vääpeli (WO) Pakkala who got himself killed on July 18, 1941. I remember Pakkala's case well because he was in the same rifle platoon as my grandfather, though I didn't hear about this event from him since he never told anybody anything about his wartime experiences.

Instead, I read about it from a different account written by one soldier of the company that was originally published in the Kansa taisteli magazine. Though, the magazine is not exactly the most reliable source since it consisted solely of stories told by soldiers but I've managed to confirm the main outline from other sources (database of Finnish WWII casualties and the history book Eteläpohjalaisia taistelussa II).

Pakkala was originally a member of 2nd Company of Kevyt Osasto 19 (Light Detachment 19). In late June that company was ordered to attack strong Soviet positions over open ground. To this day it hasn't been found out what exactly happened, but apparently only 20-40 men actually followed the order and the rest didn't attack. Pakkala was among the men who participated in the attack, and fought courageously until retreat order came. [The reason why the company didn't attack was that they knew that the other side of the field was heavily fortified with numerous machineguns but the detachment commander continued to insist that there were absolutely no enemy soldiers opposite them and they could just leisurely stroll over the field.]

Because this failure the company was disbanded and the men sent to other companies. Pakkala and four others were sent to 1st Company of JR 37 (infantry regiment). They arrived just before scheduled attack to Särkisyrjä village.

The company commander gave a very verbose verbal attack to the five men, calling them traitors and cowards among other insults and then dismissed them without giving an opportunity to present their own side of the story.

This made Pakkala so furious that in the attack next morning he didn't give any concerns to his personal safety. The attack was stopped on a grassy ridgeline where the Soviets had many automatic weapons positioned behind a stone wall. Pakkala then took a bag of grenades with him, crawled to the wall, and forced Soviets to retreat with casualties by throwing grenades at them. After doing this he sat down on ground to wait the others, knowingly sitting in clear view of enemy, and was promptly shot to death.

So, here is an example of a courageous man going to his death in a stupid and needless way.

[My great uncle (who was in the same company) died on the second day of the battle. I haven't been able to find details of his death.]

[jimmygun]

Speaking of courage and stupidity (and maybe changing the subject a bit) is anyone besides me sick of hearing the word hero thrown at every person that walks by? If I hear someone say again about the heroic young welfare mom who raises three kids I will puke.

Our own Prime Minister was described in the media as doing a heroic deed in not sending troops to Iraq along with the States. Heroic? He simply did nothing. Is it heroism to do nothing? Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick! That sort of crap really gets my blood boiling.

Sorry for the rant. And now back to our regularily sheduled topic!

[Nyarlathotep]

I tend to think that it's a matter of degree. Courage is a good thing, but too much of it is sheer stupidity. Too little is just as bad. I like to think of myself as brave, I will take calculated risks if it serves a purpose (and the more important the purpose the more of risk I will take) but I would never risk myself in a situation where I either had no realistic chance of success and/or stood to accomplish nothing, that would be stupid.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Speaking of courage and stupidity (and maybe changing the subject a bit) is anyone besides me sick of hearing the word hero thrown at every person that walks by? If I hear someone say again about the heroic young welfare mom who raises three kids I will puke.

Our own Prime Minister was described in the media as doing a heroic deed in not sending troops to Iraq along with the States. Heroic? He simply did nothing. Is it heroism to do nothing? Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick! That sort of crap really gets my blood boiling.

Sorry for the rant. And now back to our regularily sheduled topic!

Yeah, I get sick of it too. To me, a hero is someone who puts his life (or in some cases his career or other important thing) on the line to acheive a greater goal, and something very specific at that (i.e. the person who runs into a burning building to save their family). For example, Jessica Lynch may well have faced great problems and acted bravely, however she was not a hero. The guy that led the troops to her, he MIGHT have been a hero (though I am not sure, since I don't really know how much of a risk he faced)

[PogoPedant]

Quick and dirty : Courage is doing what you are afraid of doing.