Alien ship? Comet? You decide

[Ed]

Is is a ca. 1550 engraving. What do you see?

It reminded me of the panel from the Bayeux tapestry that I try to post below. Von Danekin would say anicent astronauts, Luci would say a discarnate spirit, Steve would say let's not be hasty. What do you think?

To be more explicit:

-Is this guy pointing to the thing in the sky in the first place?
-Whether or not he is, what is that thing? It is not mistake in the engraving, it was intentionally put there.

I'll tell you why I care later.

[Ed]

As an aside, this is a JPG and 24k. Why is it so damn puny?

[geni]

If you mean the guy in the middle isn't he simpley holding up his shield to try and block a blow?

[CFLarsen]

Can't see it. Bigger?

[jimlintott]

How do we know that this picture represents an actual event? It may just be art for art's sake. Nothing more than the imagination of the artist. Artists have been known to do that from time to time.

[geni]

The thing in the "sky" looks a bit like an axe head. Does it matter that there would be an empty space on the engraving if it was not there?

[Ed]

why is it so small? (no jokes please)

[BTox]

Any better? To me, it looks like a battle scene. I'd assume the object is a flaming ball of tar shot by catapult.


http://users.rcn.com/rick8172/lores%20bigger.jpg

[CFLarsen]

I still can't see what it is.

Is there ANY better image? :)

[CFLarsen]

Eddie Spaghetti,

I looked at the files you sent me.

Material: Looks like bronze on a non-corroding alloy of coarse blend.

Scenery is fairly easy to interpret:

Left guy: Helmet, but with naked torso. Carries a big sword.

Middle guy: Lies on ground, raises shield and left leg to protect himself against Right guy.

Right guy: Naked, ready to swing a big club on Middle guy.

There seems to be an extra person standing next to Right guy, holding a shield similar to Middle guy's.

This is most likely a depiction of a gladiator scene (Left and Right guys' attire hints at this).

As for the "alien ship"? Looks like a cloud to me. There are not that many details - if any.

[MRC_Hans]

Gladiator scene? Isn't the ting in the sky a net thrown by the guy on the left? One of the "weapons" used by gladiators was a net.

Hans

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Gladiator scene? Isn't the ting in the sky a net thrown by the guy on the left? One of the "weapons" used by gladiators was a net.

Hans

Yes, you're right: First guy has fingers outstretched. It would jive with him wearing a helmet.

(My historical source for this? Asterix! :D)

[geni]

Isn't the date a bit wrong for Gladiators?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by geni
Isn't the date a bit wrong for Gladiators?

We need confirmation on the date.

Edso?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


*snip*
(My historical source for this? Asterix! :D) Ehhrm... Mine too, I must confess :rolleyes:.

Hans :p

[geni]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


We need confirmation on the date.

Edso?

Oh dear I read ca. 1550 as the date (what does this mean?)

Also the stye seems more greek than roman (form what I have seen in other place).

[Ed]

On or about 1550. Typically classical scenes were used for decorative purposes. The gold was probably applied with a mercury process...

The reverse side has a decoration with Samson and his silly jaw bone, the armor is 16th c. or close enough.

edit to correct a date estimate by 100 years:D

[CFLarsen]

What part of the world?

Specifics, man! Specifics!! ;)

[Ed]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
What part of the world?

Specifics, man! Specifics!! ;)

:D

If I knew a lot, I would not be asking questions.

Two experts are of differing provisional opinions .... Venice and Germany .. for the decoration at least. The blade is german. But these things travelled. The blade might have been made in G. The hilt in Venice, the decoration on the blade in Venice, Florence or North (as they refer to it). It might have been assembled somewhere else for a patron in yet another place. The point is "where" sort of only defined when you ask "what".

My interest is in finding out anything definitive, and that is wishful thinking, perhaps. All we know is that it appeared in a south German collection in a 1924 catalog. The collection was formed during the Gothic revival in the 1700's. It vanished until it was bought by the father of the collector that I bought it from.


The comet, if it is that, appears in renassence prints and on some weapons. I am visiting the Yale print collection to "browse" this week. Another academic wrote a book on comets in art and I spoke to her this am. She found it "interesting" and we will talk more. It might MIGHT provide a clue to the date or make finding the print (if indeed there is one) that served as the model for the engraving easier to find.

I am hoping for a comet, but being honest, I will walk away from that if it does not hold water.

Incidentially, no one is flinging anything anywhere on the damn thing.

It looks a bit like that "UFO" on that painting that someone posed here a while back.

oh yeah... best guess for a date is 1550-1575, maybe. Not earlier than say 1525, certinly not 15th century. Maybe as late as 1600, but doubtful. The met has something similar that they date to 1550.

[DickK]

The guy on the ground is quite dead,
the guy on the left throws his head,
the guy on the right,
unarmoured in fight,
simply cries "where's his bonce?", instead.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Scenery is fairly easy to interpret:

Left guy: Helmet, but with naked torso. Carries a big sword.

Middle guy: Lies on ground, raises shield and left leg to protect himself against Right guy.

Right guy: Naked, ready to swing a big club on Middle guy.

There seems to be an extra person standing next to Right guy, holding a shield similar to Middle guy's.

This is most likely a depiction of a gladiator scene (Left and Right guys' attire hints at this).

Agree, except for..
Originally posted by CFLarsen
As for the "alien ship"? Looks like a cloud to me. There are not that many details - if any.
It looks a bit equine to me. The presence of a horse would fit right in with the "gladiator" scenario.

[Charlie in Dayton]

I'm surprised you haven't consulted the ultimate authority on things like this...

KOA? Albert? Bueller? Anyone? :D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Ed
oh yeah... best guess for a date is 1550-1575, maybe. Not earlier than say 1525, certinly not 15th century. Maybe as late as 1600, but doubtful. The met has something similar that they date to 1550.

If it's a comet, it would most likely have appeared in the years right before it was made, so it was still fresh in people's memories.

You can check with The Bad As(s)tronomer if there was a comet visible around that time. If there was...well, your pet theory is somewhat strengthened... :)

[Ed]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


If it's a comet, it would most likely have appeared in the years right before it was made, so it was still fresh in people's memories.

You can check with The Bad As(s)tronomer if there was a comet visible around that time. If there was...well, your pet theory is somewhat strengthened... :)

IF it is a representation of a comet. Unfortunately the person who's opinion in Art circles is high in this regard will not be back from vaca for a week.

[El Greco]

Why would a comet be depicted just as decor in a battle scene ? Such an important thing would deserve something more. I tend more towards the cloud.

[Fidelio]

Gary W Kronk (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search/002-0506390-2259264?keyword=Gary%20Kronk&tag=archinforinterna) in his book "Comets a Descriptive Catalog" lists 13 long period (100+ years) and non-periodic comets for the years between 1500 and 1596. The short period comets require a bit more research. You might see if your library has a copy of his latest book "Cometography."

[Woo hoo I knew that book would come in handy some day.;)]