Is there a scale of Holiness?

[Soapy Sam]

This may belong in community, religion or events.

During Razi's recent trip to the "Holy Land", the BBC referred to some shrine or other as "One of the holiest sites of Christianity".

Repeatedly during the Iraq war, the same Beeb has referred to "One of the holiest mosques in Islam"- (usually because some presumably atheist muslim had blown it up).

In Saudi, one of the king's titles is "Custodian of the two Holy Mosques" (I assume in Mecca and Medina).

So- how is "holiness" measured, exactly? What units are used? What instruments? Is holiness digital or analog?

Can anyone enlighten me?

[Professor Yaffle]

Wasn't there an episode of Father Ted in which their local "holy stone" is to be upgraded to a "class 2 relic"?

ETA: http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/comedy/watch/v6478008qn3DhNzm#

[fuelair]

I believe there to be a depth of difference between "Holy crap", "Holy jumping jeebus" and "Holy jumping jeebus on a (carnal knowledge of maternal parent) cross!!!" with the level of [calling on] holiness increasing exponentially.

[IMST]

I'm pretty sure Islam ranks their holy sites and such. Haven't heard much of that from anyone else, though.

[Springfork]

They use a mystery system for determining "holiness". My golf socks are the most holey...18 holes.

[slingblade]

atheist muslim

Do believe that there is an oxymoron.

[geni]

For example, Sahih Bukhari quotes Abu al-Dardaa as saying: "the Prophet of Allah Muhammad said a prayer in the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) is worth 100,000 prayers; a prayer in my mosque (in Medina) is worth 10,000 prayers; and a prayer in al-Masjid al-Aqsa is worth 1,000 prayers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque#Third_holiest_site

Not aware of any of the christian demoninations haveing such a list but I supose the catholic church might have something along the lines of

Church of the Holy Sepulchre, The Vatican, Church of the Nativity.

Normaly however holyness is judged by popular belief and to an extent pilgerimage figures.

[Soapy Sam]

Do believe that there is an oxymoron.


I wonder- I might describe myself as a Christian atheist as opposed to an Islamic atheist. In central Scotland, I'd be a Protestant atheist as opposed to a Catholic one.

I need to know though- is holiness a logarithmic scale, or is there some sort of power law of sanctity?

Or could it possibly all be a matter of human opinion?:boggled:

[casebro]

I think you have to go to divinity school to learn how the rating system works. It takes a BS degree. :)

[Denver]

I suppose this could also be related to the steps to Sainthood in Catholicism, though I understand that it is not that the church makes the person a saint during these steps, but rather, recognizes their existing level of 'holiness' using that process.

So maybe relics and locations and the like can be mapped to a similar mindset: its not that they are declared, and so made, holy. But rather they are recognized as being whatever 'holy' is in the belief system in question: and likely, that will mean something like 'being close-to/approved-by/bless-by God' or 'something that, when pondered, builds faith, and so holiness, in the ponderer'.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

I need to know though- is holiness a logarithmic scale, or is there some sort of power law of sanctity?

No. It's one of those rank-ordering jobbies.

You are currently My Lord Bishop, and may become His Grace. But if you want to become His Holiness, you'll have to take up bead-tickling or something of the sort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_(Christianity)#Styles_and_forms_of_addres s

* Wet towel round the head *

[Ralph]

Where's the dividing line between "not holy at all" and "just the slightest bit holy".

What's required to move that little bit from the realm of the non-holy to the slightly holy?

I can think of a lot of things that'd be called "very holy" or "most holy"...but I can't think of a damn thing that I'd consider to be just a wee little bit holy.

[slingblade]

Where's the dividing line between "not holy at all" and "just the slightest bit holy".

What's required to move that little bit from the realm of the non-holy to the slightly holy?

I can think of a lot of things that'd be called "very holy" or "most holy"...but I can't think of a damn thing that I'd consider to be just a wee little bit holy.

How about in the other direction? Can something be just a wee bit unholy?

[Darth Rotor]

The degrees of holiness are in the eyes of the Beholders, of which there are ten, and then there is that ultraorthodox central eye.

DR

(D & D ref, of course)

[PogoPedant]

It is all based on the Universial Subjective Holiness: "I" is holier than "thou". Everything else can be deduced from this.

[slingblade]

I wonder- I might describe myself as a Christian atheist as opposed to an Islamic atheist. In central Scotland, I'd be a Protestant atheist as opposed to a Catholic one.

Yes, you might. Each would be an oxymoron.

It is oxymoronic to identify oneself with a belief in god and a lack of belief in god at the same time, as the two terms are contradictory.

But hey, whatever floats your lead weight! :p

[Manning]

Yes, you might. Each would be an oxymoron.

It is oxymoronic to identify oneself with a belief in god and a lack of belief in god at the same time, as the two terms are contradictory.


However the terms "catholic" and "protestant" are a bit more fluid in their meaning, particularly in Ireland (and possibly so in Scotland).

Both terms are used on occasion as a term of quasi-ethnicity rather than actual religious belief. The Irish comedian (and avowed athiest) Dara O'Briain does a routine about this fact where he notes that even becoming a Muslim and joining the Taliban would not be enough to stop you being a catholic - you would merely be considered a "bad" catholic.

[slingblade]

However the terms "catholic" and "protestant" are a bit more fluid in their meaning, particularly in Ireland (and possibly so in Scotland).

Both terms are used on occasion as a term of quasi-ethnicity rather than actual religious belief. The Irish comedian (and avowed athiest) Dara O'Briain does a routine about this fact where he notes that even becoming a Muslim and joining the Taliban would not be enough to stop you being a catholic - you would merely be considered a "bad" catholic.

Oh. The Irish are Jewish. I get it now. :p

[Professor Yaffle]

However the terms "catholic" and "protestant" are a bit more fluid in their meaning, particularly in Ireland (and possibly so in Scotland).

Both terms are used on occasion as a term of quasi-ethnicity rather than actual religious belief. The Irish comedian (and avowed athiest) Dara O'Briain does a routine about this fact where he notes that even becoming a Muslim and joining the Taliban would not be enough to stop you being a catholic - you would merely be considered a "bad" catholic.

I think the official term is "lapsed catholic".

[Soapy Sam]

Yes, you might. Each would be an oxymoron.

It is oxymoronic to identify oneself with a belief in god and a lack of belief in god at the same time, as the two terms are contradictory.

But hey, whatever floats your lead weight! :p

It's more about what lets you avoid a kicking, Sling. Some of my earliest encounters with religion involved being thumped for not being a Catholic (aged about five). I lived in a Victorian tenement in the lovely town of Motherwell. Our building was Protestant. The one up the hill was Catholic.
Now Protestant families in 1950-60s Scotland ran to two kids, whereas Catholic ones averaged six. This meant that any kid I got into a scrap with was likely to have at least two big brothers- or worse, sisters, who would promptly give me even more grief.
Religious denomination was fundamental- even for a kid who was an unbeliever from the start. I grew up an ardent Malthusian. I was foredoomed to be a Darwinist.

In that social context, "Protestant atheist" is perfectly sensible. This is the effect of religion on language and logic.

For greater clarification, ask Chillzero, who grew up in Northern Ireland and will recognise what I'm talking about perfectly.

I know this is alien to your background, Sling, but believe me, I'm not joking. Thankfully, Scotland has moved a bit out of the dark ages since. Still has a way to go though.

[Professor Yaffle]

And there is the old one about asking someone if they are a catholic or a protestant muslim...

[shadron]

I imagine that the holiness of a site depends directly on the perceived threat to that site from the event of the moment and inversely upon the perceived amount of other news to report at the moment. See the thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=143209

As for the levels of holiness of relics and icons within the catholic church, it probably has more to do with the perceived threat to the reporting Vatican official's place within the bureaucracy.

[bigred]

Can anyone enlighten me?

This very obviously belongs in the religion forum. You're welcome.

[Ladewig]

atheist muslim


Do believe that there is an oxymoron.


Yes, but it is a very useful one. It allows all the folks who have terminal Obama Derangement Syndrome to label him as the belonging to their two most hated groups.

[Beerina]

This may belong in community, religion or events.

During Razi's recent trip to the "Holy Land", the BBC referred to some shrine or other as "One of the holiest sites of Christianity".

Repeatedly during the Iraq war, the same Beeb has referred to "One of the holiest mosques in Islam"- (usually because some presumably atheist muslim had blown it up).

In Saudi, one of the king's titles is "Custodian of the two Holy Mosques" (I assume in Mecca and Medina).

So- how is "holiness" measured, exactly?


Is "follow the money" failing for some reason I'm not aware of?



Can anyone enlighten me?

"Follow the money" wasn't enlightening?

[JimBenArm]

Holiness has been known to leave a scale, if you don't rinse the pot completely after using it. A bit of Lime Away will clear it off easily enough, though, so it's not too much of a problem.

[Autolite]

So- how is "holiness" measured, exactly? What units are used? What instruments? Is holiness digital or analog?

Can anyone enlighten me?

I think it's a point system based on killing infidels. Agnostics are worth five, Atheists ten. I'm a strong, unrepentant dyed-in-the-wool Atheist. I figure that my death would be worth 15 points and an all expenses paid trip to Bermuda... :D

[JoeTheJuggler]

This topic reminds me of a Zen story. Two students are arguing over who has the best (perhaps "holiest"?) master.

The one argues that his master can levitate, has been reportedly seen in two places at the same time, has caused a dead tree to flower and fruit, and so on.

The other says, "When my master sits, he just sits. When my master eats, he just eats."

Or something like that.

[JoeTheJuggler]

So- how is "holiness" measured, exactly? What units are used?

I propose the Moses Scale of Holiness.

It's related to Moh's Scale of Hardness. You just gauge the hardness of the stones used in stoning the person to death as a scale of holiness of a given martyr.

[I Ratant]

Is "follow the money" failing for some reason I'm not aware of?
"Follow the money" wasn't enlightening?
.
I believe one's personal degree of holiness is directly connected to the amount of tithing one does to the church of choice.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Or perhaps something akin to the Scoville Scale using Organoleptic Test (how much you have to dilute a pepper to make the "heat" undetectable as a measure of how hot it is).

I'm not sure what the proper solvent for diluting holiness is. Or the way to know when no more holiness is detectable.

How about how many atheists you have to put in a room with the holy person before the main topic of conversation stops being his faith? The units should perhaps be called "Dawkins".

ETA: This approach comes from recognizing that all holiness is a form of "holier than thou" attitude, so you've got to have a lot of "thous" around to be holier than before you're truly holy.

[Marquis de Carabas]

You should probably ask one of the snake-handling sects.

[tsig]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque#Third_holiest_site

Not aware of any of the christian demoninations haveing such a list but I supose the catholic church might have something along the lines of

Church of the Holy Sepulchre, The Vatican, Church of the Nativity.

Normaly however holyness is judged by popular belief and to an extent pilgerimage figures.

You can get indulgences for visiting certain sites. The Canterbury Tales is a story of a group of pilgrims to Canterbury to get indulgences.

[Soapy Sam]

As opposed to going to Santiago de Compostela to get indigestion?

[joobz]

Holiness is usually measured in terms of porosity and mesh size.

[Soapy Sam]

No, that's holosity.
Easy mistake to make. One's about a whole lot of nothing and the other measures holes.

[ponderingturtle]

So we have established the degree's of holiness, now we need to establish the degree's of horniness.

What would the unit of measure be?

[GeeMack]

Is there a scale of Holiness?


DOC / kurious_kathy
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GeeMack

[joobz]

So we have established the degree's of holiness, now we need to establish the degree's of horniness.

What would the unit of measure be?
inches

[Denver]

Maybe it's measured in credibility.

The more credible someone or something is in a given belief system, and the more it resists attack, or the more a person can say and do heinous things and not lose believers, the more holiness would be ascribed to it.

[slingblade]

It's more about what lets you avoid a kicking, Sling. Some of my earliest encounters with religion involved being thumped for not being a Catholic (aged about five). I lived in a Victorian tenement in the lovely town of Motherwell. Our building was Protestant. The one up the hill was Catholic.
Now Protestant families in 1950-60s Scotland ran to two kids, whereas Catholic ones averaged six. This meant that any kid I got into a scrap with was likely to have at least two big brothers- or worse, sisters, who would promptly give me even more grief.
Religious denomination was fundamental- even for a kid who was an unbeliever from the start. I grew up an ardent Malthusian. I was foredoomed to be a Darwinist.

In that social context, "Protestant atheist" is perfectly sensible. This is the effect of religion on language and logic.

For greater clarification, ask Chillzero, who grew up in Northern Ireland and will recognise what I'm talking about perfectly.

I know this is alien to your background, Sling, but believe me, I'm not joking. Thankfully, Scotland has moved a bit out of the dark ages since. Still has a way to go though.

No, I get it. I was serious with "the Irish are Jewish." Religion becomes subsumed within ethnicity...often so deeply that it isn't even recognized as being a religious belief anymore. Simply part of one's ethnicity.

I gets it right? :blush:

[Piscivore]

Yes. Anubis had it, last I looked.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Yes. Anubis had it, last I looked.
I've long been awaiting your arrival to this thread. Points for subverting expectations and not making a sacred fish joke.

[Piscivore]

I've long been awaiting your arrival to this thread. Points for subverting expectations and not making a sacred fish joke.

Thank you. :)

[SusanB-M1]

In more recent years, the word 'holy' has begun to annoy me more and more. I mean to say, it is totally meaningless.
And then today there is news that the new Archbishop of Westminster is to be enthroned; a special something has been made for him to kneel on on the steps outside, he will have full new ceremonial robes etc... and they talk of politicians fiddling their expenses.

A scale of holiness? Huh! I think it should be a flat line, zero scale, and the word 'holy' should quietly crawl away and hide itself in a dark corner or something.... oh, and work hard to find a replacement word for itself.

Okay - off to tap dancing in a minute; that'll brighten up the day!

[Elizabeth I]

10 gratia plenas = 1 ave
10 aves = 1 hosanna
100 hosannas = 1 halellujah
100 halellujahs = 1 chorus (just checking to see if you're paying attention :p)
Actually it's 10 halellujahs = 1 selah
1,000 selahs = 1 amen

[tsig]

10 gratia plenas = 1 ave
10 aves = 1 hosanna
100 hosannas = 1 halellujah
100 halellujahs = 1 chorus (just checking to see if you're paying attention :p)
Actually it's 10 halellujahs = 1 selah
1,000 selahs = 1 amen

Amen to that!