[Split Thread] Does anyone think the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime? [Archive]

chillzero

15th May 2009, 12:53 PM

My english is fine. Thank you for clarifying what you actually meant, though you could have been a little more polite with it, particularly comparing your punctuation and grammar to mine.

So, the questions you actually meant are:
It's not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randi's lifetime?

I especially wonder if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

Instead of what you wrote, which asked did anyone believe that the challenge would be won - especially if Randi does believe so)

In which case the answer is that no, Randi does not expect anyone to win the challenge, ever, as he does not believe that supernatural or paranormal abilities actually exist. I'm not entirely sure why a matter of what forum members believe would be part of the FAQs anyway?

ZirconBlue

15th May 2009, 01:35 PM

You really can't read, can you? is english a second language for you perhaps?

Your initial post on the topic was not phrased clearly. You owe Chillzero an apology, IMO.

CaptainCapacitor

16th May 2009, 06:40 PM

Your initial post on the topic was not phrased clearly. You owe Chillzero an apology, IMO.

It was incredibly clear, but not at all concise.

I apologize that Chillzero can't properly parse my post, through no fault of my own.

now can someone answer the two questions?

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...

ZirconBlue

16th May 2009, 08:16 PM

It was incredibly clear, but not at all concise.

You don't get to decide whether it was clear or not. Your readers do. Chillzero interpreted it in a perfectly reasonable manner. When I first read it, I thought that either you meant it as chillzero interpreted it, or that English was not your first language.

I apologize that Chillzero can't properly parse my post, through no fault of my own.

It is through fault of your own. You didn't express your idea clearly. Perhaps, instead of lashing out like an angsty teenager at anyone who dares point this out to you, you could try being mature about it.

now can someone answer the two questions?

Sure. Why not?I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?

I doubt it will ever be won. During Randi's lifetime or beyond (if the challenge continues). I suspect most posters on this forum agree.

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

I'm sure that James Randi also does not expect anyone to ever win the challenge. (Note: This is one of the worst-phrased sentences I've seen on this forum, but based on your later posts, I think I understand what you're trying to say.)

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...

You were not "flamed". You started off with a very poorly worded post. Because it was so poorly worded, it was misinterpreted. You got a genuine answer based on that misinterpretation. Rather than just clarify your intent, you chose to be insulting.

You know, when I am new to a forum, I usually don't come out and insult people in my first handful of posts. In fact, I usually lurk for quite some time to get the lay of the land before posting at all. I would suggest that perhaps you might reconsider your approach next time.

six7s

16th May 2009, 08:16 PM

Breach of Membership Agreement removed.

chillzero

17th May 2009, 03:23 AM

now can someone answer the two questions?

Perhaps if you had read my response properly instead of looking for something to continue being so rude about about (seriously, would it have killed you to review your post and say, "sorry - you're right that wasn't very clear, and thank you for the correction?"), you would not have missed the answer:

In which case the answer is that no, Randi does not expect anyone to win the challenge, ever, as he does not believe that supernatural or paranormal abilities actually exist. I'm not entirely sure why a matter of what forum members believe would be part of the FAQs anyway?

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...
The only person who has flamed anyone so far was yourself.

six7s

17th May 2009, 03:28 AM

The only person who has flamed anyone so far was yourself.Such tact and diplomacy! Have you ever considered becoming a mod?

:)

CaptainCapacitor

19th May 2009, 08:33 AM

ZirconBlue

19th May 2009, 08:38 AM

steenkh

19th May 2009, 09:08 AM

will someone answer the questions please? so far no response.

does anyone think the challenge will finally be won in Randi's lifetime?

Does Randi think it will happen? (note the question mark!)

maybe you could have taken some patience with a newbie?

anyhow, still curious, it's still not in the FAQ, and no answer.
This has been answered already, but OK:

No, we are skeptics, so of course we do not think that the challenge will be won in Randi's or anybody else's lifetime (assuming that the challenge runs that long).

Randi is also a skeptic, so the answer is obvious: he thinks the same as the rest of us. The challenge was created when Randi was claiming that the paranormal dose not exist, and he decided to put his money where his mouth was.

Originally, the prize was for US$ 10.000, but over time it has expanded to US$ 1 million, but it is still Randi, or the JREF, betting that no one will ever win the challenge. Obviously, we could all be wrong and the money would change owner, but Randi and all other skeptics regard this as extremely unlikely.

The challenge will never be won, not because the right people have not applied, but because reality is stacked in favour of the JREF: the paranormal does not exist.

CaptainCapacitor

19th May 2009, 09:49 PM

yeah, I never did see those answers, kind of figured it though.

I was thinking that Randi would *want* it taken in his lifetime, I mean, a real example of something real happening.

it would certainly change our view of the universe. that's one of the "catches" that people get caught up in, they want soo much to believe, they get lost in their own delusions.

and another part I think, even as a skeptic, we are still just scratching the surface of understanding the universe, and what is possible.

there are certain physical laws, can't accelerate to the speed of light, however, nothing says you can't "jump" into hyperspace and go faster than light.

the technology of today would seem like magic to someone from the middle ages, the speed of sound was once thought impossible to break.

my grandparents think computers are pretty much magic, one can only imagine what our grandkids will think of our primitive technologies.

the point is, maybe someday someone will show us we've been doing it all wrong. there are still many unexplained wonders in this universe.

I don't think the challenge will ever be beat, however, I wish someone someday could do it. always strive for more.

Reading the MDC applications, what most applicants don't understand is that JREF (and everyone else) really DOES want them to beat the challenge, that's the whole point to this mess.

We Really DO want it beat. just do it honestly.

steenkh

19th May 2009, 11:59 PM

I was thinking that Randi would *want* it taken in his lifetime, I mean, a real example of something real happening.
I cannot speak for Randi, but I am sure that he will be as excited as everybody else if the challenge is taken. And we might well "want" it taken in order to experience the scientific feeding frenzy that would be the result. However, we also know with all possible certainty (i.e. not absolute certainty) that it will never happen.

DevilsAdvocate

21st May 2009, 12:52 AM

I don't think the challenge will ever be beat, however, I wish someone someday could do it. always strive for more.There is a difference between advanced technology and the paranormal. It is not as if people would just try harder to be psychic, or practice their telekinesis more, or build a better dowsing rod, or search more for ghosts, or work harder to understand and capture the flying spaghetti monster, that we would strive for and achieve something paranormal. The only thing paranormalists strive for are other people's money, attention, or satisfaction of their delusions.

I would be thrilled if someone won the Million Dollar Challenge, and I’m quite sure I’ve seen Randi say the same. However, the MCD is not like the $10 million Ansari X Prize for the first private manned space flight. The purpose of the MDC is not to encourage people to investigate and try to find something paranormal. The purpose of the MDC is to call the bluff of charlatans claiming to have paranormal abilities.

If someone can prove something paranormal, that is great. If not, then nobody should claim to have paranormal abilities. It works out fine either way. :)

arthwollipot

21st May 2009, 01:05 AM

and another part I think, even as a skeptic, we are still just scratching the surface of understanding the universe, and what is possible.

there are certain physical laws, can't accelerate to the speed of light, however, nothing says you can't "jump" into hyperspace and go faster than light.

the technology of today would seem like magic to someone from the middle ages, the speed of sound was once thought impossible to break.

my grandparents think computers are pretty much magic, one can only imagine what our grandkids will think of our primitive technologies.

the point is, maybe someday someone will show us we've been doing it all wrong. there are still many unexplained wonders in this universe.Personally, I think that reasoning like this is a cop-out. We actually understand a whole lot more about the way the universe works than some people assume. While it is true that nothing says you can't "jump" into hyperspace and go faster than light, it is also true that nothing says that there aren't giant invisible squid living in the spaces between the galaxies.

Appealing to unknown future technology is a pretty piss-poor way of trying to justify anything today. If that's what you want to do, write science fiction.

No, I will not see the paranormal challenge won in my lifetime. And I think we already know enough about the way the universe works to say that telepathy or dowsing or the ability to make people pee with the power of your mind do not and can not exist.

Yeggster

21st May 2009, 08:26 AM

No

It's not scientificly possible, that's the idea behind the challenge ... to educate the public of the fact, these so called paranormal events are easily explained with science.

Steel Rat

21st May 2009, 08:35 AM

In reality there is no such thing as a "paranormal" or "supernatural" ability, thing, event, etc. There are just things which are normal, albeit rare, which we perhaps haven't identified or explained yet.

This is not to say that anyone who claims such things actually has them or has experienced them. Maybe there are such things as ESP, ghosts, etc, we just don't have any verifiable evidence for them.

My answer to the main question, I don't think the challenge will ever be legitimately won.

RoboTimbo

21st May 2009, 08:39 AM

It should be easily winnable. All you have to do is claim your paranormal ability, create a protocol that eliminates mundane explanations for said ability, and then do it. Jeez, how hard can it be? It isn't rocket science.

Rasmus

21st May 2009, 09:00 AM

yeah, I never did see those answers, kind of figured it though.

I was thinking that Randi would *want* it taken in his lifetime, I mean, a real example of something real happening.

Those are two different issues:

Does Randi think the challenge will be won? No, he does not. That is the whole point of the challenge, after all.

(Should I be wrong, and should Randi just have been desperately trying to get rid of all that money, I would be more than happy to put him in touch with my bank ...)

Would Randi want the challenge to won?
I don't know. The consequences would be unforseeable, but let us look at that question a little closer:

Does Randi want there to be paranormal events or powers? I really don't know. But if there are, I am certain he would want for them to be discovered, proven and scientifically examined. He is a sceptic, after all.

it would certainly change our view of the universe. that's one of the "catches" that people get caught up in, they want soo much to believe, they get lost in their own delusions.

Hence the challenge ...

and another part I think, even as a skeptic, we are still just scratching the surface of understanding the universe, and what is possible.

Uh ... no. Not at all. We have a very deep and detailed understanding of the universe, in fact. We have artifical satteltites in orbit, human artefacts have gone beyond the solar system, i can publish my thoughts here on JREF for the world to see, small pox and the plague no longer pose a serious problem to humanity, we cannot only measure the movement of continents (or the speed with which the moon moves away from the earth) we can actually watch (http://dan.pfeiffer.net/continentaldriftcam/cd-cam.htm) it happen (http://www.sudftw.com/contdcam.htm). Never mind that we have masterd flight, dug a tunnel under the ocean and a gazzilion other things.

And all the while we have not only dicvoered what is possible, we have also dicvored things that are impossible and can explain why that is so.

There is, of course, a margin of error, but we are not nearly as ignorant as you would want us to belive.

there are certain physical laws, can't accelerate to the speed of light, however, nothing says you can't "jump" into hyperspace and go faster than light.

Please define "hyperspace" and explain what you mean by "jumping into it". Otherwise your claim doesn't evne begin to make sense.

the technology of today would seem like magic to someone from the middle ages, the speed of sound was once thought impossible to break.

What were the reasons given for that belief, though? And did they mae sense? As much sense as the reasons we have for the claim that you cannot accelerate to light speed?

my grandparents think computers are pretty much magic, one can only imagine what our grandkids will think of our primitive technologies.

How is that relevant?

I am not aware of the advance of any piece of technology during my lifetime that I would have declared "impossible" prior to its development.

I never thought CDs would be impossible. I wasn't smart enough to invcent them, but i somebody had told me you could use a laser to etch information into metal disk i would not have assumed this to be impossible per se.

the point is, maybe someday someone will show us we've been doing it all wrong. there are still many unexplained wonders in this universe.

Yes, but none of them will make mind reading work.

I don't think the challenge will ever be beat, however, I wish someone someday could do it. always strive for more.

I am striving for more - I just try to direct my efforts at more worthwhile causes.

Reading the MDC applications, what most applicants don't understand is that JREF (and everyone else) really DOES want them to beat the challenge, that's the whole point to this mess.

We Really DO want it beat. just do it honestly.

No, i don't want it beat. I like living in a Universe that makes a little bit of sense. I just realize that whishful thinking doesn't make it so. So if there universe is not what we thought it to be I'd certainly want that to be found out, yes. But I'd rather have us been rihgt all along.

Uncayimmy

21st May 2009, 01:27 PM

I'll be nice to you, Newbie...

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?
It sounds to me like you're saying that you expect the question, "Does anyone expect the MDC to be won?" to be in the FAQ but did not find it. I will say that some who take the test expect it to be won, but most skeptics do not.

I should point out that putting a question mark at the end of a sentence doesn't automatically make it sound like a question? You made a statement about your curiosity and put a question mark at the end?

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?
Here's where you really lost people. Nice people. The above is not a complete sentence. It looks like a phrase that should be modifying something, namely the question you asked above. It would look like this:

I'm a bit more than curious, especially if [assuming] Randi himself believes it'll be done, if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?
Since you didn't follow the rules of grammar, putting together the above was a perfectly reasonable conclusion as to your meaning.

What I think you were asking was this:

I'm a bit more than curious if anyone believes the challenge will be won in Randi's lifetime. I am especially curious if Randi believes it will be won. I checked the FAQ, but I did not find an answer. Does anyone know or have any comments?

My answer is that I don't think it will be won. From what I have read by Mr. Randi, I don't think he believes it will be won. I'm sure that some people think it's only a matter of time for somebody proves the paranormal.

I don't think it will be done in his lifetime, let alone any member of the forums...
The first half of that makes sense. The second half I can't figure out. Maybe you meant is this:

I, let alone any member of the forums, don't think it will be done in his lifetime.
I disagree that no members here think it will be won. Most of those who file challenges and take the test seem pretty sincere.

Bill Thompson

21st May 2009, 02:13 PM

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139173

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

I don't think it will be done in his lifetime, let alone any member of the forums...

It is a catch 22. Anything proved to be real is no longer supernatural.

chillzero

21st May 2009, 02:17 PM

It is a catch 22. Anything proved to be real is no longer supernatural.
but would it still be paranormal? That's what the challenge asks for... after all.

Soapy Sam

21st May 2009, 02:20 PM

I interpret the OP to mean-

"It's not on the FAQ and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randi's lifetime - especially whether Randi himself believes it'll be done?

I don't think it will be done in his lifetime, and I don't think any forum member does."

If that's what's meant, then I agree. I don't think it will be won in Randi's lifetime and I don't think Randi does either. A few forum members might- not all are sceptics.

ETA- I just read unca yimmy's post and see he has interpreted the OP in a fairly similar way. It was rather confusing.

Toke

21st May 2009, 02:28 PM

Is there a loophole for "unexplained by science" something equivalent to levitating a frog with magnetism or "animating" a fresh corpse human or animal with electricity.

Those effects were pretty impressive in their time.
Perhaps someone could come up with something new and secure a 1 million reschearch grant before publishing.

It is the least unrealistic option to me.

Uncayimmy

21st May 2009, 02:34 PM

It is a catch 22. Anything proved to be real is no longer supernatural.
From the FAQ:
Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranorma

Besides it's not a catch-22 since passing the test doesn't prove it's real. That would be setting a really low bar for science.

The challenge is whether a supernatural/paranormal claim, something currently unexplainable by science, can be demonstrated and repeated under carefully controlled scientific conditions. It's important to think of it this way.

Denver

21st May 2009, 02:41 PM

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139173

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?...

I personally would love to see it won in Randi's lifetime, or mine. It would have enormous repercussions upon our understanding of the universe and ourselves.

I also personally do not believe it will be won, since thus far, no one has demonstrated, under well controlled conditions, the slightest paranormal ability.

Uncayimmy

21st May 2009, 03:06 PM

I personally would love to see it won in Randi's lifetime, or mine. It would have enormous repercussions upon our understanding of the universe and ourselves.
No, it wouldn't. It would more likely show that Randi, like many other well-meaning people, failed to design an adequate test (or the odds caught up).

Now, if a winning test sparks a round of science that grinds and grinds on it to conclude there is, in fact, some new and fantastic discovery, that would be wild.

Denver

21st May 2009, 03:26 PM

No, it wouldn't. It would more likely show that Randi, like many other well-meaning people, failed to design an adequate test (or the odds caught up).

Now, if a winning test sparks a round of science that grinds and grinds on it to conclude there is, in fact, some new and fantastic discovery, that would be wild.

I didn't say that the impact would be universal and immediate. As you noted, it may be the beginning of a longer process, but assuming that process bore out the results of the demonstration (which is what I was assuming for the sake of the OP), then yes it would have enormous impact.

Olowkow

21st May 2009, 03:59 PM

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139173

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

"...especially whether Randi himself believes it'll be done... " without a question mark.

The above would have been much more clear. I agree with Chillzero, rude response to a perfectly good question. I did not understand the initial reading either, and yes, I am a native speaker.

I can't imagine how Randi could believe that someone could win the challenge, since he really does not believe in the paranormal. I get the impression that he hopes that someone would win it, because that would be something very earth shaking, and he would have had a hand in it.

I believe no one can win this challenge, because I believe there is no such thing as paranormal phenomena. On the other hand, it would definitely be cool if humans actually could see the future, or read minds.

six7s

21st May 2009, 05:18 PM

I disagree that no members here think it will be won. Most of those who file challenges and take the test seem pretty sincere.What follows is, admittedly, merely a semantic distinction:

Although most of those who file challenges and take the test may seem pretty sincere, I'd argue that - given the 100% failure rate with regard to progressing beyond the preliminary stages - they don't actually think in the orthodox sense of the word; instead they hope, believe, etc

Typicallucas

21st May 2009, 05:34 PM

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?

I doubt the challenge will be won. So, no.

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

If Randi had a bias toward awarding the prize it may be awarded due to lack of stringent test controls. But I don't think he is biased in this way, so I don't think it will happen. Hopefully you are satisfied that I answered your question.

Now some housekeeping:

You really can't read, can you? is english a second language for you perhaps?

in any case, it's NOT a claim, or a statement, it's a question. very simple.

I asked the question *if* Randi thinks it will be won in his lifetime. it was a question to Randi

that was the second part of the question.
the first part was a question *if* anyone else thinks it'll be won in that time.
If you want to be received well and have good communication with the members of the forum I suggest you adjust your attitude. This kind of textual assault will not make you very many friends.

It was incredibly clear, but not at all concise.

I apologize that Chillzero can't properly parse my post, through no fault of my own.

now can someone answer the two questions?

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...
Again, the attitude is hurting your chance to form relationships and have civil discussions. Blaming Chillzero for misunderstanding makes your apology an empty one.

Expect to be asked for clarification any time you write something on this forum. Especially if there is more than one way to interpret what you write.

Welcome to the JREF forum. This is a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way.

ZirconBlue

21st May 2009, 08:05 PM

The first half of that makes sense. The second half I can't figure out. Maybe you meant is this:

I, let alone any member of the forums, don't think it will be done in his lifetime.

I interpreted that one to mean, "I don't think it will be done in Randi's lifetime, nor during the lifetime of any member of the forums..."

Uncayimmy

21st May 2009, 08:07 PM

What follows is, admittedly, merely a semantic distinction:

Although most of those who file challenges and take the test may seem pretty sincere, I'd argue that - given the 100% failure rate with regard to progressing beyond the preliminary stages - they don't actually think in the orthodox sense of the word; instead they hope, believe, etc

Allow me to quote from That '70s Show show how I feel about your comment:

Kitty: What is wrong with you!? Were you dropped on your head!

Kelso: Yes! I was! And up until now everyone had the good grace not to mention it!

Cuddles

22nd May 2009, 04:10 AM

It is a catch 22. Anything proved to be real is no longer supernatural.

Irrelevant. The challenge address what is considered paranormal now. Once you have a contract with the JREF agreeing to pay you a million dollars for doing something, you get a million dollars if you do it. That doing so may prove that your claim was not paranormal after all does not affect things in the slightest, although it will of course have an influence on any future paranormal challenges.

chillzero

22nd May 2009, 04:20 AM

I doubt the challenge will be won. So, no.

If Randi had a bias toward awarding the prize it may be awarded due to lack of stringent test controls. But I don't think he is biased in this way, so I don't think it will happen. Hopefully you are satisfied that I answered your question.

Ohhh.... good point. I hadn't even considered that. Indeed, if Randi had a belief that someone could win the MDC, there'd be the possibility of a control being overlooked, or the element of judging might be allowed, something really subtle that would nonetheless skew the end result.

We watch these kinds of discussions happen over and over when people try to convince of the amazing things they have seen - the amazing readings that 'no one else could have known those details' and so on. If there was any doubt in Randi's mind, ore the minds of those assisting with the various testing setups that he isn't involved in, then I guess that problem would have snuck in somewhere.

Again, the attitude is hurting your chance to form relationships and have civil discussions. Blaming Chillzero for misunderstanding makes your apology an empty one.
I expect nothing better from someone faking information about a cousin in the Twin Towers on 911 to invent a CT. In any case, we should all move on, now that the discussion is properly underway.

Typicallucas

22nd May 2009, 04:41 AM

we should all move on, now that the discussion is properly underway.
:)

Nursefoxfire

22nd May 2009, 01:27 PM

...

I expect nothing better from someone faking information about a cousin in the Twin Towers on 911 to invent a CT. In any case, we should all move on, now that the discussion is properly underway.

Holy HELL! thanks SO much for making me wander into the Conspiracy Theories subforum! I think I just lost half my remaining brain cells!

p.s. I interpreted the OP question exactly the way chillzero did. This guy's sentence structure graphic description of the sentence structure deleted.

Remember this is a public forum. That was a little too close to rule 2.

Erigena

22nd May 2009, 01:39 PM

No

It's not scientificly possible, that's the idea behind the challenge ... to educate the public of the fact, these so called paranormal events are easily explained with science.
Exactly! It's about educating the public. The challenge will never be won, not in anyone's lifetime.

William Smith

23rd May 2009, 03:38 AM

What we know about the universe so far strongly suggests the MDC will not be won.

dann

23rd May 2009, 02:52 PM

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?

You should make a poll!
I'd vote no, it won't be won, ever - or yes, somebody (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4740577#post4740577) actually believes that it will be won in Randi's lifetime.

Ron_Tomkins

23rd May 2009, 03:26 PM

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139173

its not on the FAQ, and I'm a bit more than curious if anyone seriously believes the challenge will be won in Randis lifetime?

especially if Randi himself believes it'll be done?

I don't think it will be done in his lifetime, let alone any member of the forums...

Belief is not a very relevant thing in the skeptical community

Almo

26th May 2009, 04:27 PM

It was incredibly clear, but not at all concise.

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...

It was not clear at all.

BTW: great way to join a forum. Insult one of the well-respected members.

jsfisher

26th May 2009, 09:00 PM

It was not clear at all.

BTW: great way to join a forum. Insult one of the well-respected members.

Just one?

six7s

26th May 2009, 09:20 PM

BTW: great way to join a forum. Insult one of the well-respected members.Just one?tEH '0THERS' aRE aLL s0CKS !! 11 !!

T.A.M.

27th May 2009, 06:38 PM

You really can't read, can you? is english a second language for you perhaps?

in any case, it's NOT a claim, or a statement, it's a question. very simple.

I asked the question *if* Randi thinks it will be won in his lifetime. it was a question to Randi

that was the second part of the question.
the first part was a question *if* anyone else thinks it'll be won in that time.

Rather than jump and down and complain, why not come back over to the 9/11 Ct subforum and give us some more details about your cousin on the 8th floor of the WTC? Lots of questions await you over there after that hit and run post you left...sock.

TAM:)

corplinx

27th May 2009, 07:06 PM

A person with enough wealth and resources and employees under NDA might be able to cheese the challenge at some point using nano-technology before detection of such tech is possible under controls available.

The problem is, said wealthy person would have to spend billions to make 1 million. The joke would really be on them.

Elizabeth I

27th May 2009, 08:17 PM

It was not clear at all.

BTW: great way to join a forum. Insult one of the well-respected members.

Just one?

No, it's just that the rest of us aren't respected. :p:D

Manning

27th May 2009, 09:54 PM

I have my own re-interpretation of the challenge: "Demonstrate that a fundamental force exists which has not previously been identified by science".

A common element of all paranormal/New Age speculation is that there is some force that exists in addition to the four fundamental forces science accepts (Electromagnetism, Strong & Weak Nuclear forces, and gravity).

Just about every MDC candidate essentially argues for the existence of some new and unidentified force. Were they able to RIGOROUSLY demonstrate that such a force existed it would be a monumental event in science.

(Having said that, there is absolutely no evidence to justify even "wildly speculating" that such a force exists.)

drkitten

28th May 2009, 06:49 AM

I have my own re-interpretation of the challenge: "Demonstrate that a fundamental force exists which has not previously been identified by science".

Well, that's an interpretation, I suppose.

Of course, if you approach it from that point of view, the challenge will almost certainly not be won. The people who are most likely to identify such a force are physicists, who will

a) publish predictions of such a force in the journals, thereby rendering such a force non-paranormal
b) perform experiments to test such predictions somewhere other than in front of the JREF
c) win a Nobel Prize, which would put the "mere" MDC to shame.

jaydeehess

28th May 2009, 12:01 PM

Quite amazing this.

CC complains (erroeously) that no one has addressed the intent of his OP question (as opposed to the way he actually worded it), yet now that many posters have indeed addressed it in detail, CC is no where to be found.

arthwollipot

28th May 2009, 09:27 PM

And this surprises you because...?

Paul Bethke

3rd June 2009, 03:53 PM

I personally would love to see it won in Randi's lifetime, or mine. It would have enormous repercussions upon our understanding of the universe and ourselves.I also personally do not believe it will be won, since thus far, no one has demonstrated, under well controlled conditions, the slightest paranormal ability.

Well never a more true word spoken 'eh' written.

The situation in South Africa is reaching the political climax for which I have waiting.
It is time to act!

Ps 119:126
It is time for you to act, O LORD; Your law is being broken.

six7s

3rd June 2009, 05:11 PM

It is time for you to act, O LORD; Your law is being broken.The jury's out, on that one...

jsfisher

3rd June 2009, 05:34 PM

Ps 119:126
It is time for you to act, O LORD; Your law is being broken.

So, you think this god of yours should apply for the Million Dollar Challenge? What sort of paranormal ability does he have that can be demonstrated under test conditions?

If he'd like to post here, himself, I'm sure we could help with developing the test protocol.

fuelair

3rd June 2009, 06:11 PM

It was incredibly clear, but not at all concise.

I apologize that Chillzero can't properly parse my post, through no fault of my own.

now can someone answer the two questions?

BTW: great way to respond to a newbie to the forums, flame them, way to go guys...

Not flaming - your post was unclear, poorly phrased and poorly punctuated. The fact that you know what you mean is logical. The fact that you expected others to correctly interpret your message as written is not logical. This is, by the by, the problem some attempters of the challenge have had - unclear statements, inability to understand that the challenge is scientific and a general attitude of "I get to do my trick how I want to do it because those nasty science people and equipment just turn my aura green!!"

As to the prize, not a chance in hell of anybody winning it - the point is to allow those who believe they have powers to test, fail and understand they are nothing special in any way AND to show up the ones who think they have found an infallible, undebunkable way to work fraud on others. The first group has some who keep dreaming, the second has no one (in my memory) stupid enough to try. I'll let you figure out why.

Now, you may feel I am somewhat biased on this - and you are correct. NO ONE has ever under verifiable circumstances/situations done anything paranormal. NO ONE has ever done anything parascientific under verifiable conditions. NO ONE has ever demonstrated the slightest verifiable evidence of a supreme (or even mediocre) creator of all. I have to say the million + a bit is still safe - statistics are way on the side of no one doing any of those things.:)

fuelair

3rd June 2009, 06:21 PM

I interpreted that one to mean, "I don't think it will be done in Randi's lifetime, nor during the lifetime of any member of the forums..."

Most likely by me too!!

CaptainCapacitor

8th June 2009, 08:22 AM

A lot of people believe "natural magic" is possible, a force that exists outside the boundaries of our limited understanding of reality.

it goes way back to before the first "fairy" sighting (fakes), to the middle-ages, the age of Dragons and wizards, and things from the darkest realms of human imagination.

Even today we have some left-overs from that era, there are "priests" who perform "exorcisms" and believe in "demonic possession", and there is a huge group of people that believe in "ghosts"

I think it's just the human condition, wanting desperately to believe in something greater than ourselves, to have more to life than just "this", to try and understand the meaning of life, the purpose, more than "you are born, you live, you die - that is all", a lot of people can't accept the limitations of that.

it comes down to the question "is this all there is, is there nothing more?"

the perspective is flawed of course, but they don't want to see that.

btw James Randi has said many times he really does want the challenge to be beaten, just as long as it's real, and not some fakery.

Yeggster

8th June 2009, 08:44 AM

...
btw James Randi has said many times he really does want the challenge to be beaten, just as long as it's real, and not some fakery.

Yes he says words to the efect of .. the milion woud be worthy investment based on the effect it would have on inceasing our knowledge alone

drkitten

8th June 2009, 08:54 AM

A lot of people believe "natural magic" is possible, a force that exists outside the boundaries of our limited understanding of reality.

Oh, it is. Demonstrably.

Pitchblende "magically" fogged photographic plates, and X-rays allowed us to "magically" see bones inside flesh. If James Randi had been around in 1890, he probably would have given away the million dollars (which was a lot of money in those days) for a demonstration of the magic rocks that messed up photographs.

What keeps Randi safe today is that most scientists are more interested in publishing their findings rather than exploiting them as parlor tricks -- and the fact that most science today is done in groups, and widely published. But even Randi has been burned. In the early 80s, a music nerd named Arthur Lintgen was able to identify the music on a (phonograph) record by looking at the grooves. (http://www.skepdic.com/vinylvision.html) Fortunately for Randi, he (Lintgen) cheerfully admitted that he was not psychic, just a total propeller-head who knew more about recorded music than any sensible person should.

Similarly, Matt Blaze managed to "visualize" Randi's lockbox, and should by rights have been able to claim the million for his astonishing cryptography-based feat of remote viewing. (http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/) Again, Blaze graciously declined to take the million.

Lintgen knew he wasn't doing anything magical, and so do the physicists working on their Q-rays or whatever. They generally don't harass Randi, and Randi doesn't harass them. Who he does harass are the people who think they are doing something magical, but either don't understand that what they are doing is commonplace, or aren't doing anything at all.