Israel and Palestine

[Grammatron]

I know there were a plethora of threads on the topic of this thread, however I don't want to talk about who is right and who is wrong, which land belongs to whom and so on. I just want to offer this video (and since I don't know Arabic I don't know if it's true since it comes from Israeli source) and show how sad events can get and how entire cultures and generations could be brainwashed and robbed of future or reason.

http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx

[davefoc]

I listened to it a bit. It's sad.

It reminds me a bit of the Kurdish situation. Read what the Indians have to say about the Pakistanis or visa versa and it clear that a cycle develops where each side repeats the same basic themes over and over to the point that views of each side are more real to each side than the reality of the underlying facts.

In this case you have the Israeli's repeating one of their long term basic themes. i.e. the Palestinians are being brainwashed into great violence and if only their leaders would stop this everything would be peachy.

And of course there is some truth to the Israeli view as there is to all the basic themes of both sides that are repeated endlessly in these kind of disputes, so the Israeli supporters will walk away nodding their heads in agreement with the piece and with their basic views of the dispute unchallenged.

Similarly the Palestinians will walk away from listening to this piece knowing that the actions are necessary because of the horrendous actions of the Israeli's and their basic views of the dispute will not be changed.

So what ends it? I don't know. But increasingly I have come to believe that the US involvement in the problem makes things worse year after year and that the US should move to withdraw from the entire Israeli Palestinian dispute over a period of about a year. Nothing we have done seems to make things better and we may just be making them worse.

[Cleopatra]

Many Greek folk songs are talking about young Greeks that have imaginary dialogues with their gun.In such songs the boys ask their mother not to stop them from killing themselves for the country and for Liberty.

In every old culture Death is depicted as the price that should be paid in order to enjoy Liberty.

Of course the Greeks who fought for their Liberation for more than 100 years never attacked civilians and they didn't even think to commit suicide and kill others although the Ottoman Turks weren't the most civilized conquerors. I guess that this is strongly connected to our Religion and to the fact that the War of Independance was conducted in Greece by people who admired the philosophers of Enlightment and the American Founding Fathers.

I have said many times that the only way to resolve the issue in Middle East is that both parts understand some basic truths.

1. Israel is established and it exists.

2. The Occupied Territories should be given to the Palestinians in order that they establish a State of their own as soon as possible.

Those who claim that the refugees should return or that the settlements must stay refuse to understand the basic truths.

For example those who produced the video haven't accepted that Israel exists. In other similar videos of the Israeli side, some other people haven't realized that they must leave the West Bank and they talk BS about Abraham and our fathers....

I repeat. Israel exists and it will exist and the Palestinian refugees cannot return.
The Palestinians should have a State so, all the settlements should be dismantled and Israel should really help Palestinians to built a country.

Once everybody understands those simple truths, the problem will be resolved in 20 days.

Now let's wait Unique to jump in this thread and destroy it.

[espritch]

I have said many times that the only way to resolve the issue in Middle East is that both parts understand some basic truths.

1. Israel is established and it exists.

2. The Occupied Territories should be given to the Palestinians in order that they establish a State of their own as soon as possible.

Those who claim that the refugees should return or that the settlements must stay refuse to understand the basic truths.

I agree. Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen. The view expressed is a rational one. The view of the settlers and the suicide bombers alike is essentially a religious one and consequently irrational. The settlers believe it is their holy duty to claim the west bank for Israel. The suicide bombers believe it is their holy duty to drive the infidel Jews into the sea. As long as these beliefs persist, there is little hope of a lasting piece since the fundamentalists can always derail any attempt at piece with one bomb and restart the cycle of violence.

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Now let's wait Unique to jump in this thread and destroy it.

Whohoo!!! Party! Yeah! :D
Originally posed by A_Unique_Person
When you consider how much the current war in Iraq is costing,
it's really quite a bargain.

100 Billion Can Buy Peace (http://www.buypeace.com/)
It does not follow.... It simple does not follow.
The war in Iraq has little to do with Israel situation.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by espritch


I agree. Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen. The view expressed is a rational one. The view of the settlers and the suicide bombers alike is essentially a religious one and consequently irrational. The settlers believe it is their holy duty to claim the west bank for Israel. The suicide bombers believe it is their holy duty to drive the infidel Jews into the sea. As long as these beliefs persist, there is little hope of a lasting piece since the fundamentalists can always derail any attempt at piece with one bomb and restart the cycle of violence.

I think there are many people on both sides who want nothing but peace, and who would agree to Cleopatra´s basic truths. Or at least, they would accept them if they knew it would give them peace.
Unfortunately, as things are, the hardliners are too powerful. Israelis and Palestinians would probably need an outside force which is both powerful enough to put serious pressure on both sides´ leaderships, and be recognized by both sides as fair, trustworthy and impartial. However, I don´t see any such entity.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Chaos


I think there are many people on both sides who want nothing but peace, and who would agree to Cleopatra´s basic truths. Or at least, they would accept them if they knew it would give them peace.
Unfortunately, as things are, the hardliners are too powerful. Israelis and Palestinians would probably need an outside force which is both powerful enough to put serious pressure on both sides´ leaderships, and be recognized by both sides as fair, trustworthy and impartial. However, I don´t see any such entity.

Right. It's about time, that this God guy who is responsible for the mess steps in and resolves the issue for good...

Zee

[Cleopatra]

If what I learn about the new peace plan is true, and if the plan will be applied, I will have to abandon my house in Jerusalem because the Arabic sector will be given to the Palestinians.

Guess what. I don't care at all.

[Cleopatra]

If you want to have a look at the Geneva Initiative click here (http://www.heskem.org.il/Heskem_en.asp?id=2)

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Guess what. I don't care at all.
You don't care because you think that the plan will fail?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by LuxFerum

You don't care because you think that the plan will fail?

On the contrary. I don't care about the sacrifices that are needed for this plan to work.

For the moment the officials of both sides haven't accepted the plan but its existence proves an official opposition to the politics of the madness.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Once everybody understands those simple truths, the problem will be resolved in 20 days.



For the most part, Cleo, I agree. I think it would probably take closer to a month, though.

[geni]

Originally posted by Chaos


Unfortunately, as things are, the hardliners are too powerful. Israelis and Palestinians would probably need an outside force which is both powerful enough to put serious pressure on both sides´ leaderships, and be recognized by both sides as fair, trustworthy and impartial. However, I don´t see any such entity.

China. No history in the area and 3 million men under arms. Might keep the busy enough to stop threatening their neibors. Of course it wont happen but since nothing else seems to work anyway....

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


On the contrary. I don't care about the sacrifices that are needed for this plan to work.

For the moment the officials of both sides haven't accepted the plan but its existence proves an official opposition to the politics of the madness.
You are cool.:D
But how is that? you will just have to leave the house? Did you paid alone for it, or the government of Israel Subsidized it? will you get some money back?

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
If what I learn about the new peace plan is true, and if the plan will be applied, I will have to abandon my house in Jerusalem because the Arabic sector will be given to the Palestinians.
Why would you have to leave? Does the Palestinian part of Jerusalem have to be judenrein?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by JamesM

Why would you have to leave? Does the Palestinian part of Jerusalem have to be judenrein?

Oh no.

The Geneva Initiative intends to publish a list of Israelis who support energetically the plan and they are ready to leave --as a gesture of good will towards the Palestinians and towards the settlers.

Well, the original owner of the house was a Holocaust survivor,she went to Israel after it was established, my mother, my sister and I are born in Israel from a Jewish mother, we have something to lose from this story and we have to show an energetic support. At least we have more things to lose than those who came to Israel yesterday and refuse to leave the Occupied territories. I think that our opinion matters.

It's my way to demonstrate "my professed liberalism" that demon accused me of.Well, another key for my collection.

Many people are willing to fight for that.Of course there will be others that they will refuse and others that they will start accusing the supporters for being traitors.

For the moment let's hope that none will be assassinated.

After the symbolic sign of the plan I expect an outbreak of violence but there is an old jewish proverb : " The man who is already wet is not afraid of the rain " :)