Any correlation between intelligence and happiness?

[Zeuzzz]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.

[aggle-rithm]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.

What I've heard is that people with above-average intelligence have to make more neural connections in the brain as they grow into adulthood, and so it takes longer for them to mature. As a result, they go through a longer emotionally unstable period as they approach adulthood, when the emotional parts of the brain have fully developed but the cognitive parts are still catching up.

The result can be scarring psychologically.

Also, smart people tend to think more existential thoughts, which can easily lead to depression.

PS: My source for the "big brain" theory is the show "Most Evil", which was attempting to explain why many serial killers are really smart.

[drkitten]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

As far as I know, that's an old wives' tale. Google scholar comes up with nothing, which strongly suggests that it's not something that "it's been shown." Especially since Google itself comes up with a million unsubstantiated pop versions of that claim.

[rocketdodger]

You must be a very unhappy person drkitten.

[fishbob]

Ever hear the expression: "fat, dumb, and happy"?

Is there a basis in reality?

[Professor Yaffle]

I found this quote using google scholar, but the article is paywalled, and I don't have access:

... As Watson has earlier dis- covered, there is no demonstrable connection between
intelligence and happiness, although it is not inverse as many defeatist cynics ...


http://content.apa.org/journals/abn/29/2/202.pdf

[JohnG]

PS: My source for the "big brain" theory is the show "Most Evil", which was attempting to explain why many serial killers are really smart.


<derail>
In novels and movies, anyway. Are real life serial killers really geniuses like their fictional counterparts? Seems to me a lot of the reason people think real life serial killers are so smart is simply that they are able to evade detection for so long, but in actuality a lot of it is just dumb luck. Add to that the fact that the murders perpetrated by a serial killer are always harder to solve that a more conventional murder simply because the victims of a serial killer aren't usually friends/relatives/acquaintances of said killer, so it's naturally harder for police to tie them (via motive and opportunity) to the crime.

As the years have gone on since The Silence of the Lambs was in theatres, there have been a lot of super genius serial killers in film, TV and books, but they have never rung true to me. The fascination with not only their intellects but more importantly their capacity for evil acts is something I personally don't share.

Hannah Arendt was right; evil is banal.
</derail>

[drkitten]

<derail>
In novels and movies, anyway. Are real life serial killers really geniuses like their fictional counterparts?

They tend to be smarter than average, I believe.

Killing people is difficult and requires a certain amount of planning, which, in turn correlates with intelligence. Killing people multiple times and getting away with it requires successful planning, which correlates even more so.

But there are few enough serial killers that they don't affect the overall averages much.

From a literary standpoint,.... intelligent villains have always been much more fun and interesting. There's a reason that Magneto, Moriarty, and Lex Luthor are as commanding as they are. Moriarty is actually a pretty good example -- he, and possibly Irene Adler, are the only two Sherlock Holmes bad guys that most people can name. (Go ahead, name another one, without looking up the books. I dare you.) Those are also, of course, the two most intelligent/dangerous villains in the entire series.

But can you even remember the name of the bad guy in "The Sign of Four," or "The Hound of the Baskervilles"?

[Soapy Sam]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.


I'm too depressed to care.

[Iconoclast08]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.

Any idea where this person is getting his/her information? Sounds like bunk to me based on what I've seen in the literature. Subjective well-being is the closest I've seen to a "happiness" variable in the positive psych literature although I may be missing something. Lots of woo in there (e.g., the idea of "flow"), but some ideas would be worth pursuing with more rigorous methods and better operational definitions.

From Diener, E. (2000). Subjective well-being: The science of happiness and a proposal for a national index. American Psychologist, 55(1), 34-43.

"Researchers have also accumulated evidence that many life circumstances correlate with SWB [subjective well-being] at only modest levels, again supporting the idea of adaptation. For example, Campbell, Converse, and Rodgers (1976) estimated that 10 resources, including income, number of friends, religious faith, intelligence, and education, together accounted for only 15% of the variance in happiness."

So no, not really.

[Professor Yaffle]

What undercuts the expertise of the profilers even more is the fact, amply demonstrated (it seems to me) by the case histories in these volumes, that most serial killers aren't very bright. Contra the FBI's profiling program, that found the mean IQ for serial killers to be "bright normal," and Schechter and Everitt's conclusion that "serial killers tend to be smart," the best that can be said for the best of them is that they were able to live functional double lives. Smart people don't think they can get rid of bodies by cutting them up and flushing the pieces down the toilet. And yet this is how both Dennis Nilsen and Joachim Kroll were caught. Again we can blame Hollywood for the entirely fictional figure of the serial killer as cunning genius and criminal mastermind - someone like Hannibal Lecter who can lecture on Dante and play the Goldberg Variations from memory. In the real world some of the most successful serial killers, like the cretin Ottis Toole or the degenerate Wests, were borderline retarded.

http://www.goodreports.net/reviews/theencyclopediaofserialkillers.htm (http://www.goodreports.net/reviews/theencyclopediaofserialkillers.htm)


Are serial killers 'brilliant'? According to Stéphane Bourgouin, the French criminologist, the average IQ of serial killers is 110 - bright, perhaps, but not brilliant. His figures are based on those furnished him by the FBI (Bourgouin, 1993, p. 224). Bundy himself, who is often depicted as unusually intelligent, had a measured IQ of 120 (Rule, 1994). Most university students would score higher.
http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/Publications/Serial_Killers.htm (http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/Publications/Serial_Killers.htm)

[Eos of the Eons]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.
Blissfully ignorant? I think I know some people like that :wink8:

[drkitten]

http://www.goodreports.net/reviews/theencyclopediaofserialkillers.htm (http://www.goodreports.net/reviews/theencyclopediaofserialkillers.htm)



http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/Publications/Serial_Killers.htm (http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/Publications/Serial_Killers.htm)


Of course, looking at the "average" IQ of serial killers isn't necessarily meaningful.

If four of five serial killers are average, and one in five is a Lecter-style genius with an IQ of 150, that would put the mean IQ at 110, "bright normal." But the distribution is far from normal, and geniuses would be vastly overrepresented in serial killers relative to the population at large.

Alternatively, you might be able to get a high average simply by cutting off the bottom. If you assume that no one from the thirtieth percentile or below is smart enough to get away with serial killing, then you'd end up with an average serial killer IQ of about 107-ish.

[Iconoclast08]

What I've heard is that people with above-average intelligence have to make more neural connections in the brain as they grow into adulthood, and so it takes longer for them to mature. As a result, they go through a longer emotionally unstable period as they approach adulthood, when the emotional parts of the brain have fully developed but the cognitive parts are still catching up.

The result can be scarring psychologically.

Also, smart people tend to think more existential thoughts, which can easily lead to depression.

PS: My source for the "big brain" theory is the show "Most Evil", which was attempting to explain why many serial killers are really smart.

I really don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but this "theory" sounds downright wonky. Any references for this besides the T.V. show and Dr. Stone's media musings? Any other researchers who have data to support this?

I'm not sure how seriously Stone's "Gradations of Evil Scale" is taken in the field of psychology. Sounds a little dramatic to me, but I don't know much about it.

I just ran a lit search on this "evil scale" or anything by Stone that discusses its psychometric properties, and the only thing I could find was this single book chapter:

Sadistic Personalities in Murderers. Stone, Michael H.; In: Psychopathy: Antisocial, criminal, and violent behavior. Millon, Theodore; Simonsen, Erik; Birket-Smith, Morten; Davis, Roger D.; New York, NY, US: Guilford Press, 1998. pp. 346-355. [Chapter]

Seems fishy that not a single article exploring its psychometric properties came up, but maybe there are other articles...

Anyone else know of anything?

[drkitten]

I'm not sure how seriously Stone's "Gradations of Evil Scale" is taken in the field of psychology. Sounds a little dramatic to me, but I don't know much about it.

As far as I can tell,.... not seriously at all. I've personally never seen any work on it.

More damningly, there are 31 citations on Google Scholar for the phrase "gradations of evil." By contrast, we get about 200 for "aries rising" and two thousand for "alien abduction."

ETA: and 1300 for "satanic ritual abuse."

[Iconoclast08]

From the timothyjpmason webpage:

3. Are serial killers 'brilliant'? According to Stéphane Bourgouin, the French criminologist, the average IQ of serial killers is 110 - bright, perhaps, but not brilliant. His figures are based on those furnished him by the FBI (Bourgouin, 1993, p. 224). Bundy himself, who is often depicted as unusually intelligent, had a measured IQ of 120 (Rule, 1994). Most university students would score higher.

Anyone know if IQ is "estimated" or actually measured using, say, a full WAIS battery?

I read Rule's book awhile ago and never remember her saying anything about how Bundy was tested. Anyone know?

I often find that "IQ" is used pretty loosely and inconsistently measured. Like that "past presidents' IQ" thing that floats around junk emails. Where are those numbers coming from, exactly?

Sorry to nit-pick, but I can't help it thinking like a rascally psychologist.

[plumjam]

The positive correlation is much stronger between obesity and happiness (or rather, jolliness). When did you last see a fat person frowning?
(Discount the above avatar)

[blutoski]

Someone told me the other day that its been shown that people with a lower IQ are on average happier than most people with a high IQ. And that people with a higher IQ are more likely to suffer from depression. True or not?

Any studies been done on this? Would be interested in any research thats been done in this area.

Thanks.

I've heard people say this, but nobody's ever been able to support it with evidence.

Most studies that attempt to resolve this do have modifiers that can be contested.

Specifically, people with severe depression are unmotivated and underperform on all cognitive tests, including IQ tests. There is an argument that IQ tests don't have much meaning if done by the depressed. As a consequence, scores from those who are depressed are usually omitted from these types of surveys.

Secondly, there is also the trend to omit data from those with IQ score below 85, which also skews the results suspiciously. For the record: there is no doubt that there is a correlation between depression and being below 85 IQ. The relationship is very strong.


Relevant studies:


[Life course impacts of mild intellectual deficits. Am J Ment Retard. 2005 Nov;110(6):451-68. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16212448?ordinalpos=17&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)]

Excerpt:Compared to their higher IQ sibling, low-IQ individuals completed less schooling, had less prestigious occupations, rated themselves less physically healthy, and reported lower levels of psychological well-being.

[Children with developmental delays twenty years later: where are they? How are they? Am J Ment Retard. 2004 May;109(3):219-30. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15072520?ordinalpos=22&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)]

Excerpt:Findings documented a broad range of outcomes, with some young adults leading independent and productive lives, whereas the majority were un- or underemployed, living with and financially dependent upon their families, and socially isolated. For both parents and young adults, IQ was significantly and negatively related to perceived life satisfaction.

[Life satisfaction in 28 intellectually gifted persons aged 65 and over. Presse Med. 2003 May 10;32(16):734-9. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12856531?ordinalpos=25&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)]

Excerpt:OBJECTIVE: To date, no French studies have been published concerning intellectually gifted elderly people (over 65 years of age), although they represent more than 200,000 people in France. METHOD: This paper reports the results of a study conducted with members of the Mensa Association, whose membership is open to those who have scored very highly on IQ tests (scores of 132 or higher). Twenty-eight gifted elderly people (aged between 65 and 86 years) were assessed using a life satisfaction index (Neugarten Scale). The results were compared with those obtained from a sample of 394 elderly people who participated in the lcare study, which is recognised as a reference study. RESULTS: Our study indicates that gifted elderly people have significantly higher rates of life satisfaction (past, present and future) than normal elderly people. DISCUSSION: The Neugarten index revealed the great life satisfaction in this population. However, several biases should be taken into account: size of the sample, recruitment method and life satisfaction assessment. Despite these limits, the results of this study are of certain interest since there is little data on follow-up and aging of intellectually gifted people in the literature.

[Estimated intelligence and long-term outcomes of opioid addicts. Am J Drug Alcohol Abuse. 1986;12(4):331-40. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3826022?ordinalpos=42&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)]

Excerpt: DP Estimated IQ was significantly related to length of addiction career; the higher the estimated IQ, the shorter the career.

[Zeuzzz]

Brilliant Blutoski, cheers for the info.

[JohnG]

From a literary standpoint,.... intelligent villains have always been much more fun and interesting. There's a reason that Magneto, Moriarty, and Lex Luthor are as commanding as they are. Moriarty is actually a pretty good example -- he, and possibly Irene Adler, are the only two Sherlock Holmes bad guys that most people can name. (Go ahead, name another one, without looking up the books. I dare you.) Those are also, of course, the two most intelligent/dangerous villains in the entire series.

But can you even remember the name of the bad guy in "The Sign of Four," or "The Hound of the Baskervilles"?


I like evil geniuses as much as the next guy (one of the problems, IMO of the James Bond films of the last 20 years has been a serious lack of Blofeld/Goldfinger style super-villains), but that's not the same thing, necessarily as an evil genius serial killer.

Nitpick: Irene Adler may have technically been the antagonist in "A Scandal in Bohemia", but I think it's pushing it a bit (in more ways than one) to refer to her as the "bad guy".;)

I apologize for the contributing to the derailment of this interesting and worthwhile thread.

[Iconoclast08]

The positive correlation is much stronger between obesity and happiness (or rather, jolliness). When did you last see a fat person frowning?
(Discount the above avatar)

hahaha

Well, maybe Alfred Hitchcock, too...

[bpesta22]

Any idea where this person is getting his/her information? Sounds like bunk to me based on what I've seen in the literature. Subjective well-being is the closest I've seen to a "happiness" variable in the positive psych literature although I may be missing something. Lots of woo in there (e.g., the idea of "flow"), but some ideas would be worth pursuing with more rigorous methods and better operational definitions.

From Diener, E. (2000). Subjective well-being: The science of happiness and a proposal for a national index. American Psychologist, 55(1), 34-43.

"Researchers have also accumulated evidence that many life circumstances correlate with SWB [subjective well-being] at only modest levels, again supporting the idea of adaptation. For example, Campbell, Converse, and Rodgers (1976) estimated that 10 resources, including income, number of friends, religious faith, intelligence, and education, together accounted for only 15% of the variance in happiness."

So no, not really.


There was a similar thread on this not too long ago-- based on Diener's work (sort of) I just submitted a paper to a high prestige journal (rejection most likely) on exactly this issue.

A major part of it was the correlation between IQ and subjective well being, operationalized as a host of variables with the unit of analysis being the 50 US states.

At this aggregate level, IQ correlates moderately to strongly with all well-being factors.

At the individual level, to the extent happiness is captured by the big-5 personality traits than it likely would not correlate with IQ, as IQ and the big 5 are pretty independent.

I'm reluctant to post too much of my data as it's under review now.

[Iconoclast08]

There was a similar thread on this not too long ago-- based on Diener's work (sort of) I just submitted a paper to a high prestige journal (rejection most likely) on exactly this issue.

A major part of it was the correlation between IQ and subjective well being, operationalized as a host of variables with the unit of analysis being the 50 US states.

At this aggregate level, IQ correlates moderately to strongly with all well-being factors.

At the individual level, to the extent happiness is captured by the big-5 personality traits than it likely would not correlate with IQ, as IQ and the big 5 are pretty independent.

I'm reluctant to post too much of my data as it's under review now.

Interesting. Will look forward to hearing more when you are comfortable sharing what you've found.

Best of luck with the article submission! It's an awful process, ain't it? :rolleyes:

[HansMustermann]

It seems to me that saying that serial killers have above average IQ is like saying that something is in the last place you look for it. Think about that for a bit.

A dumb killer gets caught. It doesn't say he didn't have the morals, inclination, or voices in the head to kill again. (In fact, a lot do kill again when they get released from prison.)

Think of the "dumb criminals" lists you read all over the place. Think of the guy who rubbed lemon juice on his face, and robbed a store without a mask in broad daylight, because he thought it makes him invisible to cameras. Think of the guy who wrote his name and address on a check and wrote his demand on the back of it when robbing a bank. Etc.

Do you have any suspicion that these guys could do a murder that's a complete mystery to the police? No, they just get caught after the first time.

That is, if they don't botch that first time too.

Think of the guys who blew up their gun by shoving a potato on the barrel, because Hollywood taught them it's a good silencer. Think of the guys who can't actually hit a victim because they're holding the f-ing pistol sideways like the cool guys in movies do. Etc.

So, yes, somebody who manages to never leave clues and never get caught are the smarter criminals. Of course they'll have above average IQ. The below average IQ ones just got caught earlier.

It doesn't mean that being smart makes you evil. It just says that at evil (if they decide to do it in the first place), just like almost anything else, the smart guys are more successful. It's not that big a revelation any more, is it?

[Dr. Trintignant]

Scientific proof:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/R2PqZOHLuCI/AAAAAAAAAVM/zpfpBGPhKCs/s320/Happiness-intelligence-lisasimpson.jpg

- Dr. Trintignant

[Travis]

Not that anecdotes are worth much but it seemed like everyone, myself included, in my anthropology and physics classes in college were on anti-depressants and we often got off on tangential conversations on how hopelessly screwed up everything was. Conversely, in my film appreciation class (which was filled with jocks on scholarships) I was seemingly the only depressed one and the only one that was often described by the other students as "pretty much hating the human race."

[bpesta22]

Interesting. Will look forward to hearing more when you are comfortable sharing what you've found.

Best of luck with the article submission! It's an awful process, ain't it? :rolleyes:

Brutal for the best journals. I sent it in mid may and the manuscript number was already at 1205! Something like 6 articles a day are submitted to the journal which rejects 95% of them.

And, the rejected ones often find homes in other decent journals, so the competition is fierce.