North Korea cancels truce

[BenBurch]

I just heard this.

WTF????

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It's on again.

I hope you haven't burned your draft card yet.

[Thunder]

There was no truce. Just an armastice agreement.

But they did abandon that.

This is definitely worrying, though my dad says they are very unlikely to start a new conflict.

=)

[BenBurch]

It's on again.

I hope you haven't burned your draft card yet.

This time I hope we bury them. My Uncle was never right in the head after he came back from Korea. He and his platoon were pinned down for several days and he was the only one to come out of it physically whole. Thereafter he had to sleep in a bed in the middle of the room because he would punch holes in the walls in the violent nightmares he had almost every night.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

How would the North Korean military hold up in a conventional war, assuming the Chinese stay out of it? They've got a lot of manpower, I hear, but wouldn't South Korean soldiers be better trained and equipped (and fed)?

[Thunder]

How would the North Korean military hold up in a conventional war, assuming the Chinese stay out of it? They've got a lot of manpower, I hear, but wouldn't South Korean soldiers be better trained and equipped (and fed)?

they have a million soldiers. assuming it stays conventional, they could kick some major $$$.

[mortimer]

they have a million soldiers. assuming it stays conventional, they could kick some major $$$.
Doubtful. Their numbers are not that much greater than South Korea's, and they'd be fighting an offensive war against a well-trained and well-equipped enemy.

[gumboot]

There was no truce. Just an armastice agreement.

But they did abandon that.

This is definitely worrying, though my dad says they are very unlikely to start a new conflict.

=)


An armistice is more significant than a truce. A truce is merely a temporary halt on battle, normally for the purposes of conducting a specific negotiation (such as a surrender, or to bury the dead). A truce is almost always necessary to negotiate an armistice, which is a more long term agreement to stop fighting.

I think you are getting confused with a peace treaty, which is a formal end to warfare, and which was never implemented for the Korean War.

This latest incident is interesting. Is this just more saber rattling, or something more serious from the North? Also, to those familiar with the geo-politics of the area, it is my understanding that there's some pretty solid bonds between North Korea and China. Does anyone know how strong those bonds are? Does China exert any sort of control over the North?

[BenBurch]

Kim is reportedly very ill. This might be dementia, but nobody there dares ignore him.

[aviolet4u]

Kim is reportedly very ill. This might be dementia, but nobody there dares ignore him.


There is that saying..."Only the good die young." These dictators apparently stay ill for a very long time, long enough to do some damage along the way.

[BenBurch]

There is that saying..."Only the good die young." These dictators apparently stay ill for a very long time, long enough to do some damage along the way.

They of course have only the best of medical care.

[Pardalis]

Kim is reportedly very ill. This might be dementia, but nobody there dares ignore him.

He was born demented. That whole regime is a loose cannon.

[Just thinking]

He was born demented. That whole regime is a loose cannon.

I believe his new look is that of a Chia Pet in pajamas (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090410/as-north-korea/images/2cb3946b-8046-4280-9182-87c3411a7fcf.jpg).

[Policenaut]

I think this is the sign of a new regime taking over be it one of Il's sons or the generals. A regime that I believe wants to go out in a blaze of glory. Also I don't think China can put a lid on the monster they've been brewing. If China does block trade it may force their hand and I think they will at the very least try to attack South Korea and at worst launch a nuke at someone as their last hurrah.

[Just thinking]

This time I hope we bury them.

Bury nothing. The entire country should be incinerated to the point of there being nothing left standing ... as if it never even existed. I don't wish to take the chance of any coming back as zombies.

[Just thinking]

... I think they will at the very least try to attack South Korea and at worst launch a nuke at someone as their last hurrah.

It would be a blast to see it detonate at the launch site ... or better still, come down right on Kim's palace.

[Doctor Evil]

Must admit that I have no idea what N. Korea are doing, or even thinking. It seems I am not the only one

[aviolet4u]

it isn't fair for the civilians there, I feel the most sorry for them throughout it all.

The regime then must be crazy if they want to attack with all the odds against them. Suicidal at best.

[MattusMaximus]

Kim is reportedly very ill. This might be dementia, but nobody there dares ignore him.

I think what's probably going on is some of the hard-liners in the NK government are taking advantage of the situation to push their agenda. It may sound crazy, but it seems as if Kim wasn't the most militant nutcase in NK - he may have actually been holding the really dangerous people back, until now.

Man, how messed up is that? :boggled:

ETA: I really, truly hope that NK backs down and that this is just more saber rattling. Because if they don't, it's going to be a really nasty mess. Ugh...

[timhau]

they have a million soldiers. assuming it stays conventional, they could kick some major $$$.

They could do some major damage, but without help from China, they'd lose badly. AFAIK the NK Air Force is pretty crappy, their pilots cannot be well-trained because they haven't been able to afford much air time, and it's unclear how long they could keep their aircraft flying even if nobody was shooting them down. If the US/South Korea alliance had absolute air superiority, the NK advantage in numbers on the ground would mean little.

[BenBurch]

You know that experimental missile killing laser system we own? I hope somebody thinks to send it on...

Maybe it only has a small chance of working, but that is a small chance more than we had before...

[MG1962]

Must admit that I have no idea what N. Korea are doing, or even thinking. It seems I am not the only one

Well I have been an ardent follower of North Korean politics for 20 years - And I have no clue whats going down. This is all very left field, and erratic even by North Korean standards.

[BenBurch]

DEFCON 2 has been declared, BTW

[MG1962]

DEFCON 2 has been declared, BTW

Apparently it is only for troops stationed in South Korea

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5397767/South-Korea-and-US-troops-raise-alert-level-over-North-Korean-threat.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5397767/South-Korea-and-US-troops-raise-alert-level-over-North-Korean-threat.html)

Now I can concentrate on shoving my heart back down my throat lol

[Tsukasa Buddha]

[Kyle's mom]What what WHAT???[/Kyle's mom]

[gumboot]

Apparently it is only for troops stationed in South Korea

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5397767/South-Korea-and-US-troops-raise-alert-level-over-North-Korean-threat.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5397767/South-Korea-and-US-troops-raise-alert-level-over-North-Korean-threat.html)

Now I can concentrate on shoving my heart back down my throat lol


That's not enough to settle me. My Gods... DEFCON 2. That is really serious. The highest alert level ever reached was DEFCON 2, and that was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and even then, only for Strategic Air Command. If the level for all forces in South Korea has been raised to DEFCON 2 this is far more serious than I realised.

ETA. Never mind. It looks like the alert level specifically for Korea's DMZ has been raised to the second highest level - Watchcon, they call it. DEFCON is only at 4.

[portlandatheist]

North Korea is a complete wild card. IMHO, it is the most evil empire on the planet and the best strategy has been to simply keep them contained. I don't know if its dementia, Kim's health, another famine looming or a bad economy, or anything else, but I feel this isn't so much a well planned strategic move than a political instability move. If there is war, it will be ugly and if Kim's regime collapses, it will also be very ugly.

[Damien Evans]

You know that experimental missile killing laser system we own? I hope somebody thinks to send it on...

Maybe it only has a small chance of working, but that is a small chance more than we had before...

Why? It's not like the North Koreans could actually launch the nukes they might have on rockets, they wouldn't fit.


ETA: Unless the N.Ks have some Saturn 5's I'm unaware of.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If there is war, it will be ugly and if Kim's regime collapses, it will also be very ugly.

I'd hope for regime collapse. The north will then split along the lines of most popular Kim Dumb-@#$%s sycophants and they'll have it out amongst themselves.

USA and ROK will then get to play against what's left of the winner.

[wollery]

Bury nothing. The entire country should be incinerated to the point of there being nothing left standing ... as if it never even existed. I don't wish to take the chance of any coming back as zombies.Yes, because, as we all know, every person born in North Korea is evil. They're born that way, and every single one, even the unborn infants, deserves to die. :rolleyes:





Do you actually bother to think before you write? :nope:

[MG1962]

If there is war, it will be ugly and if Kim's regime collapses, it will also be very ugly.

The thing that always stick in my head - is a whole nation of good people are going to become basket cases for a generation while the world works on deprograming them of 50 years of intense mind altering propaganda

[Travis]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements in the North Korean Military that have drunk their own kool-aid and are looking for a way to start a shooting war.

Supposedly the North has been constructing tunnels under the DMZ for decades. They have over 10,000 artillery pieces within a few kilometers of the DMZ and are notorious for keeping enough troops forward deployed at all times that they wouldn't need an obvious mobilization to launch an invasion thus depriving US surveillance assets the ability to provide some lead time to prepare and ship US reinforcements out. If they do strike out they will be walking into prepared defenses manned by South Korean soldiers and an armored brigade from the US 2nd Infantry Division. The South Koreans are well trained and have top of the line equipment including some of the best battle tanks in the world so the North Koreans would take heavy casualties. However the North probably anticipates that and would be prepared to lose whole corps of troops in the name of attempting to overwhelm the South/US forces. Seoul would be the obvious first target and probably would be where the 82nd Airborne's ready brigade would be sent in the first hours after the initial artillery salvos. US doctrine calls for the immediate mustering and deployment of the rest of the 2nd Infantry division (which is three Stryker Brigades) along with the 10th Mountain and 25th Infantry Divisions. Prepositioned assets at Guam would immediately begin steaming north and would eventually supply two US armored brigades (probably drawn from the 1st Cavalry Division) and a Marine landing battalion.

Outside of Seoul the idea would be to trade space for time so that the totality of South Korea's forces can mobilize and US forces can begin deployment. How much time they can buy is an open question but hopefully long enough to allow the closure of heavy armor assets such as the 4th Infantry Division and 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment which would be central to any massed counterattack. Concurrent to that would be a massive amphibious operation by the USMC, likely on the coast of the Sea of Japan near the city of Wonsan.

Of course that's all speculation.

[Just thinking]

Yes, because, as we all know, every person born in North Korea is evil. They're born that way, and every single one, even the unborn infants, deserves to die. :rolleyes:





Do you actually bother to think before you write? :nope:

Ever hear of hyperbole? Do you really think anyone using the word zombies is 100% serious?

:nope:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements in the North Korean Military that have drunk their own kool-aid and are looking for a way to start a shooting war.

[minor_derail]
I don't think they are capable of conceiving of kool-aid. The convergence of artificial flavoring, refined sugar and potable water would be a luxury of orgasmic proportions to them.
[/derail]

[Just thinking]

The thing that always stick in my head - is a whole nation of good people are going to become basket cases for a generation while the world works on deprograming them of 50 years of intense mind altering propaganda

I can see it running along some asymptotic curve over a much longer period of time ... you'll never reach 100% for a couple of generations.

[Foolmewunz]

I can see it running along some asymptotic curve over a much longer period of time ... you'll never reach 100% for a couple of generations.

Depends.

If there is a radical and immediate regime change at some point, the effect on the population could be very similar to the abject shock in Japan after WWII and the "de-godding" of the emperor. It could be immediate and frightening and traumatic, but could take effect rather quickly when it becomes quite obvious what fools they've been.

Koreans are Koreans - when the IMF problems were rife, the population took the blame on their own shoulders to a great extent, and if the personality(collectively) of North Koreans is anywhere nearly similar to the South, they could adjust more quickly than is being imagined.

[wollery]

Ever hear of hyperbole? Do you really think anyone using the word zombies is 100% serious?Ever hear of emoticons, they're very useful in conveying meaning when you want to use sarcasm, hyperbole or other subtle meanings usually conveyed by tone of voice.

Particularly useful in a forum like Politics, where people do say some very silly things and mean them.

:nope:Oh, apparently you have. :rolleyes:

[Just thinking]

Ever hear of emoticons, they're very useful in conveying meaning when you want to use sarcasm, hyperbole or other subtle meanings usually conveyed by tone of voice.

Particularly useful in a forum like Politics, where people do say some very silly things and mean them.

Oh, apparently you have. :rolleyes:

I thought the use of unrealistic terms would have had the equivalent effect ... it seemed to for everyone else. You might want to try and climb off that pseudo high horse of intellect you appear to be spousing through your avatar and look into context now and then.

[wollery]

I thought the use of unrealistic terms would have had the equivalent effect ... it seemed to for everyone else. You might want to try and climb off that pseudo high horse of intellect you appear to be spousing through your avatar and look into context now and then.Oh no! Argument by avatar! I'm devastated! What can I possibly do now??




:catfight:

[BenBurch]

Why? It's not like the North Koreans could actually launch the nukes they might have on rockets, they wouldn't fit.


ETA: Unless the N.Ks have some Saturn 5's I'm unaware of.

Given the yield, the size should not be prohibitive.

[BPSCG]

I'm not so concerned about the Norks starting a war that would almost certainly end in their annihilation. What makes them so dangerous is that they're peddling their weaponry, including their nuclear knowledge, around the world, to nice people like Iran and Syria; they don't have much else to sell anyone.

[tomwaits]

An armistice is more significant than a truce. A truce is merely a temporary halt on battle, normally for the purposes of conducting a specific negotiation (such as a surrender, or to bury the dead). A truce is almost always necessary to negotiate an armistice, which is a more long term agreement to stop fighting.

I think you are getting confused with a peace treaty, which is a formal end to warfare, and which was never implemented for the Korean War.

This latest incident is interesting. Is this just more saber rattling, or something more serious from the North? Also, to those familiar with the geo-politics of the area, it is my understanding that there's some pretty solid bonds between North Korea and China. Does anyone know how strong those bonds are? Does China exert any sort of control over the North?


China is a sort of reluctant ally of North Korea. They are in a unique position in that the huge amounts of aid that China gives to North Korea actually makes them have less of an influence. If they stopped giving aid, it would likely lead to a collapse of the NK government and economy and then all the refugees will start tumbling into China and South Korea, which is something neither of them want.

Make no mistake, China is not at all happy about NK's antics with the nuclear weapons.

[Geezer]

At this point I would prefer if China went in and took control over NK, at any rate the the only ones who can even hope to rein them in is China.

[Lanzy]

When I was closer to the source, (I spent 3.5 years in S. Korea in Seoul), there was an alert every month or so, and threats from NK were very common. But everyone seemed resigned to the "fact" that someday it would be more than a threat.

NK would do some major damage due to Seoul being so close to the DMZ if they attack. I have no doubt the SK Army could handle them with no aid from the US if they really wanted to. The SK army is really well trained and well equipped compared to NK and estimates of the NK army have SK being able to field more soldiers.

In the end game, NK loses and loses badly, but will take a lot of SK civilians before they go.

I was there some time ago and worked in the Joint Forces planning office for the 8th Army.

[Beerina]

they have a million soldiers. assuming it stays conventional, they could kick some major $$$.

The US has long had the principle to have the best trained, best equipped soldiers, and to let the other guy throw human waves against their enemies.

There would be no conflict because the 37 miles to Seoul or whatever it is would be fast a killing zone for those millions of soldiers.



In any case, this isn't about an actual military invasion. It's about threatening the West to get some economic concessions (and probably, secretly, some 9-10 digit sums in some bank accounts in Zurich) to get them to stand down on their aggressive stance and nuclear research. Then they just wait awhile until the piggy bank gets empty, and repeat it all over again.

It's like a bully in school who gets bought off with lunch money, only to come back again the next day. Their behavior never changes because the principal of the school keeps saying, "If you do it again, I shall give you a stern talking-to again!"

[fuelair]

Ever hear of hyperbole? Do you really think anyone using the word zombies is 100% serious?

:nope:

Besides, Robby's programming will not allow him to fire at life forms.:)

[fuelair]

The US has long had the principle to have the best trained, best equipped soldiers, and to let the other guy throw human waves against their enemies.

There would be no conflict because the 37 miles to Seoul or whatever it is would be fast a killing zone for those millions of soldiers.



In any case, this isn't about an actual military invasion. It's about threatening the West to get some economic concessions (and probably, secretly, some 9-10 digit sums in some bank accounts in Zurich) to get them to stand down on their aggressive stance and nuclear research. Then they just wait awhile until the piggy bank gets empty, and repeat it all over again.

It's like a bully in school who gets bought off with lunch money, only to come back again the next day. Their behavior never changes because the principal of the school keeps saying, "If you do it again, I shall give you a stern talking-to again!"That's why glassing works. Permanent education.

[BenBurch]

My current thinking. Given that they have unilaterally cancelled the armistice, it requires no more action (in the sense of voting) at all on the part of the UN or the US government to resume hostilities.

I'd strike now.

A coordinated cruise missile strike into every RADAR, communications center, electrical generation facility, railroad junction, submarine base, and munitions dump in the North timed so that all weapons arrive on target in the same 5 minute window.

The submarine bases are vital because even if they cannot depend on their rockets yet, a nuke can be delivered into a harbor via submarine.

Then I would back that up within minutes by carpet bombing the forces deployed on the other side of the DMZ with the goal of reducing them by 20-30% quickly, and disrupting their lines of communication and resupply.

And if the North uses a nuclear weapon, we respond with one nuclear bunker buster into their main CCC center. The one Kim will be cowering in.

[Foolmewunz]

Oh no! Argument by avatar! I'm devastated! What can I possibly do now??




:catfight:

Run for the hills, is what! My kid can kick your owl's butt!

Avatars at forty paces!

[dudalb]

TIme to put on "Team USA:World Police" again.
When it comes to looks, Dear Leader is trying to project a Dr.No style image, and failing miserably.

[Demigorgon]

Hillary will fix this.

[geni]

My current thinking. Given that they have unilaterally cancelled the armistice, it requires no more action (in the sense of voting) at all on the part of the UN or the US government to resume hostilities.

I'd strike now.

A coordinated cruise missile strike into every RADAR, communications center, electrical generation facility, railroad junction, submarine base, and munitions dump in the North timed so that all weapons arrive on target in the same 5 minute window.

The US doesn't have enough cruise missiles to take out all the munitions dumps.


The submarine bases are vital because even if they cannot depend on their rockets yet, a nuke can be delivered into a harbor via submarine.

Then I would back that up within minutes by carpet bombing the forces deployed on the other side of the DMZ with the goal of reducing them by 20-30% quickly, and disrupting their lines of communication and resupply.


Dug in forces that don't need to go anywere. The US simply does not have enough delivery capacity to prevent the destruction of Seoul.



And if the North uses a nuclear weapon, we respond with one nuclear bunker buster into their main CCC center. The one Kim will be cowering in.

Doubtful. Kim is smarter than that.

[dudalb]

Provided Kim is still in control, which some experts are now debating.

[portlandatheist]

Depends.

If there is a radical and immediate regime change at some point, the effect on the population could be very similar to the abject shock in Japan after WWII and the "de-godding" of the emperor. It could be immediate and frightening and traumatic, but could take effect rather quickly when it becomes quite obvious what fools they've been.

Koreans are Koreans - when the IMF problems were rife, the population took the blame on their own shoulders to a great extent, and if the personality(collectively) of North Koreans is anywhere nearly similar to the South, they could adjust more quickly than is being imagined.

I agree. It would be similar to people leaving a cult. The trauma and shock would be intense, but they wouldn't yearn for the goold ole days. Most North Koreans were born far after WWII and the Korean War, having no concept at all of what life is really like outside their borders and they would adjust.

[dudalb]

The Term "Orwellian" gets tossed around so much that it is almost meaningless, but after seeing the CNN Christine Annapour report about North Korea, that is one country where the term is almost 100% accurate.

[Darat]

Several posts dumped to AAH for Rule 11 & Rule 12 breaches. Any further such breaches will result in further moderation action which may include suspension.

[Pardalis]

The Term "Orwellian" gets tossed around so much that it is almost meaningless, but after seeing the CNN Christine Annapour report about North Korea, that is one country where the term is almost 100% accurate.

Yeah, it's almost as if Kim Il-sung read "1984" and "Animal Farm" and said:

"Hey, that's a pretty good idea, let's do that!"

[MG1962]

The Term "Orwellian" gets tossed around so much that it is almost meaningless, but after seeing the CNN Christine Annapour report about North Korea, that is one country where the term is almost 100% accurate.

Yes I also agree. This is a personality cult gone way beyond even George's dire descriptions. I have seen a few docos about the country and the thing that hurts the most - there is no bright spot, no ray of hope for these people - They are screwed on a level even Stalin would have blushed at

[BenBurch]

The Term "Orwellian" gets tossed around so much that it is almost meaningless, but after seeing the CNN Christine Annapour report about North Korea, that is one country where the term is almost 100% accurate.

Orwell understood where that goes if you let it.

We've all been smart enough to not let it because we have his warning clearly in mind. Hence the overuse of "Orwellian." But I'd rather we worry about it when it isn't there than worry about it after its too late to matter.

[tomwaits]

Keep in mind that Orwell was basing 1984 directly off of the Stalin-era Soviet Union, so it's no surprise that North Korea resembles it so much.

[geni]

Yes I also agree. This is a personality cult gone way beyond even George's dire descriptions.

Beyond not so much. But the match that is pretty good. You've got the inner party who know the truth. The outer party where there is pretty strong cult of personality and the proles (mostly farmers in NK) who well as long as they don't rebel who cares what they think?

Kim Il-sung's title may be Eternal President of the Republic but a very good big brother analoge there.

The Emmanuel Goldstein figure would currently be Lee Myung-bak

Eternal war exists in properganda terms although it isn't used to use up excess production capacity.

Newspeak doen't really exist with shifts from korean as spoken in south korea being limited to a few things like place names.

[headscratcher4]

Unlikely with all the puffing and strutting that they will really want to start a war...I agree w/BPSCG, the real danger from the North is in what they may be trying to peddle around the world.

While a war isn't impossible, here are some of the considerations:

Yes, they have a million man army. It is unclear, however, how good an army it is. Weaponry is likely to be old and untried.

Second, they have Stalin's problem. They put ground troops into the South, that million man army is going to find out first hand, even combing through ruins, that their government has lied to to them. It will be abundantly clear to any troops that get into the south that the standard of living there is far, far higher than in the north.

Next, it is like 40 or 50 million in the South to 20 million in the North.

The south and its allies have the more up to date weaponry.

The north doesn't have much in the way of a fuel reserve...they go south, they can't power their tanks, trucks, etc. for very long.

While they can launch missles, there is real question as to the quality and accuracy of their abilities. What they've been doing lately is for show. It is planned to a tee. They've got their best people on it, planning the launches, etc. for days, to make sure that nothing goes wrong (remember the long range missle back in December(?) crashed into the ocean, not what they wanted the world to see). The launching circumstances will be very different if they go south, for one thing, missles will be launched back on them.

They can't contest either the U.S. airforce or the Korean Air force.

China is no sure bet to support them this time, nor is Russia. China has to be worried about a growing, unchecked nuclear power to its south. Further, they are worried that an unchecked north could cause the Japanese to both re-arm and go nuclear. China wants to be the player in Asia, it is likely going to step up to this situation if, for no other reason, a massive new land war on the Korean penninsula will be bad for commerce and China's economic recovery.

Russia can't support or won't support the North like it did in the past. Why? Not because they're not sympathetic, but because Russia is now a more cash and carry economy. They likely will not be giving the north arms out of old friendship, especially as its trading relationship with the south has signifcantly expanded in recent years. Also, they too have to have concerns about a nuclear power and possible war on their far east border.

It seems to me that much of what is going on is internal. There is some sort of power struggle going on in the line-up to replace Kim. THe putative family heir is only in his early 20s, the military can't like the idea of him succeeding without more seasoning, at the same time, the military has proped up the Kim regime, help to make and keep it paramount in the country, it must be at something of a loss about what to do in a power vacume when there is no strong Kim family member immediately available.

They, of course, also could be completely bat-sh$t crazy, even suicidal. They could be itching for a war, collectively, if you will, having drunk the kim coolaide and thinking they can win it. I just don't see that as the case however, their intelligence about our side and the South is far better than ours is about them. They know that we could have nukes on the penninsula. They know that the weaponry is better. They know that the South's standard of living is higher...they may think that will make them soft, but the leadership has to fear that its soldiers will be exposed to the lie that is the regime.

[BenBurch]

Maybe the best choice is to ask China to curb its dog?

[tomwaits]

Maybe the best choice is to ask China to curb its dog?

That's the thing...China does what they can. They have repeatedly tried to get NK to stop doing this nuclear thing while at the same time trying to satisfy the international community. The only thing China can do is to withhold it's monetary aid...but since NK is so dependent on the aid, the country would collapse if withheld. Then, China and SK have to deal with refugees pouring into their own countries, causing their own chaos a la Rwanda and the surrouding African nations. So it's a bit misleading to call NK China's "dog", although it may look like that since China is their sole ally in the world.

China is in a very delicate position, you see.

[headscratcher4]

That's the thing...China does what they can. They have repeatedly tried to get NK to stop doing this nuclear thing while at the same time trying to satisfy the international community. The only thing China can do is to withhold it's monetary aid...but since NK is so dependent on the aid, the country would collapse if withheld. Then, China and SK have to deal with refugees pouring into their own countries, causing their own chaos a la Rwanda and the surrouding African nations. So it's a bit misleading to call NK China's "dog", although it may look like that since China is their sole ally in the world.

China is in a very delicate position, you see.

I think this is all true, but the North also knows that while it can lead China around, it likely can't go to war if China is actively opposes it...and they certainly must oppose it today. War is bad for business.

The challenge here, it seems to me, is not to over react....

[Darth Rotor]

Doubtful. Their numbers are not that much greater than South Korea's, and they'd be fighting an offensive war against a well-trained and well-equipped enemy.
I will disagree with you here on the significance of any order of battle comparison.

Look at the map.

See where Seoul is. Count tube artillery.

MOdern war is a lot about the battle of the first salvo. NK has the luxury of the initiative. This is a non trivial concern.

NK has less to lose than SK. SK knows that. NK knows that. This is not a match of political equals, nor is there equality of aims.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

You know that experimental missile killing laser system we own? I hope somebody thinks to send it on...

Maybe it only has a small chance of working, but that is a small chance more than we had before...

Sorry, Ben, but I'd not put too much hope in that money sink.

It's an expensive silve bullet not worth, operationally, what it's advertised as.

The concept is appealing, sure, but you have some massive operational problems (not to mention physics, with dust and moisture) degrading the laser carrying aircraft, which is itself a sitting duck.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

My current thinking. Given that they have unilaterally cancelled the armistice, it requires no more action (in the sense of voting) at all on the part of the UN or the US government to resume hostilities.
I'd strike now.
That's not that bad of an idea, as I don't think Kim would expect that. Use surprise to your advantage.
A coordinated cruise missile strike into every RADAR, communications center, electrical generation facility, railroad junction, submarine base, and munitions dump in the North timed so that all weapons arrive on target in the same 5 minute window.
Ben, a strikle like that takes a bit of force, thus mobilization and repositining. Mobilization time is measured in weeks from "now" from above, which rather effs up surprise. Damnit all, Iraq still going on and Afghanistan being plussed up has been taken advantage of by Kim.

Or I miss my guess.
The submarine bases are vital because even if they cannot depend on their rockets yet, a nuke can be delivered into a harbor via submarine.
Aye.
Then I would back that up within minutes by carpet bombing the forces deployed on the other side of the DMZ with the goal of reducing them by 20-30% quickly, and disrupting their lines of communication and resupply.No, carpet bombing is not the way to play this. Far more effective ways of using air power to smash such of their forces as are above ground.

Hint: NK tunnel a lot. Ever wonder why? Hint #2: North Korea is not a desert.
And if the North uses a nuclear weapon, we respond with one nuclear bunker buster into their main CCC center. The one Kim will be cowering in.
Fantasy, just as your boy Rummy and Cheney wanted to do a decapitation strike on Saddam.

Sounds easy, but your little silver bullet idea has a lot of snags in it. (Oh, wait, Cheney and Rummy weren't your boys, but you just sounded a lot like the both of them. Weird, that is.)

I am a bit out of date, but I am not certain we have the kind of targeting info necessary for such a decap strike.

Would love to be wrong, as I'd like nothing more than to see a JDAM arrive in his lap, this afternoon. (GBU 31, 2000 pound class)

But again, that's a bit of a fantasy.

DR

[aviolet4u]

ok they have a lot less to lose but they will still lose in the end. Do they not care at all anymore? What is the point in attacking SK in this day and age, are they that deranged?

[fuelair]

ok they have a lot less to lose but they will still lose in the end. Do they not care at all anymore? What is the point in attacking SK in this day and age, are they that deranged?Potentially yes.

[Darth Rotor]

Potentially yes.
How does one say, in Korean:

Cornered rat? :p

Gotterdamerung? :jaw-dropp

DR

[IDB87]

they have a million soldiers. assuming it stays conventional, they could kick some major $$$.

1.2 million - active- soldiers.

Care to take a stab at how many reserves they can pull up?

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090530/ts_nm/us_korea_north

NK appears to now be moving an intercontinental ballistic missile from a factory to its eastern border. The question is now, how crazy are they?

:eek:

[BenBurch]

1.2 million - active- soldiers.

Care to take a stab at how many reserves they can pull up?

Or is his military a "Potemkin Village?"

[BenBurch]

DR, you are right about the positioning, but at least the cruise missile assets can be brought up where Kim cannot see them. However this is not true of his friends the ChiComs; They have two working spysats last I heard, and lots of patrol aircraft.

[BenBurch]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090530/ts_nm/us_korea_north

NK appears to now be moving an intercontinental ballistic missile from a factory to its eastern border. The question is now, how crazy are they?

:eek:

Jesus Christ.

[IDB87]

Or is his military a "Potemkin Village?"

One would hope.

Doubtful, though.

[gumboot]

ok they have a lot less to lose but they will still lose in the end. Do they not care at all anymore? What is the point in attacking SK in this day and age, are they that deranged?


If NK is truly in as bad a state as it appears (and chances are it's a lot worse), they're doomed anyway. It's a country literally starving to death. They might prefer to go out in a blaze of glory rather than slowly rot away from the inside.

And if they can achieve a rapid and dramatic enough initial attack, they might even be able to squeeze some concessions out of the international community in exchange for peace.

The United States won't be a major player in a new war, at least not initially, and that's something the North will be aware of. They're stretched to breaking point as it is - the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq having revealed some woeful shortcomings in US military capability.

Simple fact is a war on the Korean peninsula could potentially result in a death toll in the millions, and the west just are not up to dealing with that scale of bloodshed any more.

If the North made an early gain like capturing Seoul, many countries in the west would be willing to give quite a lot to end the war.

[Travis]

One has to wonder if the MSC is getting any of their sealift ships ready.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

If NK is truly in as bad a state as it appears (and chances are it's a lot worse), they're doomed anyway. It's a country literally starving to death. They might prefer to go out in a blaze of glory rather than slowly rot away from the inside.


To add some context, though, things aren't nearly as bad as they were in the mid-90's when there was widespread famine and millions of people likely starved to death. That was when there were likely real uprisings against the Kim regime and serious instability. If the country survived that, it would seem it would take conditions considerably worse to have any drastic change there.

Since the mid-90's, north Korea seems to have become quite adept at keeping things stable. They are starving, but arguably not starving to death.

[applecorped]

North Korea


THE SEVEN COMMANDMENTS

1. Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3. No animal shall wear clothes.
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5. No animal shall drink alcohol.
6. No animal shall kill any other animal.
7. All animals are equal (but some are more equal than others).

- George Orwell

[gumboot]

To add some context, though, things aren't nearly as bad as they were in the mid-90's when there was widespread famine and millions of people likely starved to death. That was when there were likely real uprisings against the Kim regime and serious instability. If the country survived that, it would seem it would take conditions considerably worse to have any drastic change there.


True, good points. It's possible that a suicidal action could be the result of a doomed regime rather than a doomed country. The question would then be how blindly the foot soldiers would follow that regime to their deaths. Mass defection could be a possibility.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Oh no! Argument by avatar! I'm devastated! What can I possibly do now??




:catfight:



Bird avatar wins every time.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Wouldn't the United Nations be required to send in military aid to South Korea if Kim Jong Il finally goes completely bonkers and attacks? The United Kingdom, France, and so on, wouldn't they send troops?

Any chance that North Korean soldiers would attempt some kind of revolt against the government if war happens?

[gumboot]

Wouldn't the United Nations be required to send in military aid to South Korea if Kim Jong Il finally goes completely bonkers and attacks? The United Kingdom, France, and so on, wouldn't they send troops?

Any chance that North Korean soldiers would attempt some kind of revolt against the government if war happens?


No, the UN is not obliged to undertake any military activities at all. If NK attacked, SK could seek assistance from an international coalition under Article 51 (collective self defense) of the UN charter, until such time as the UNSC met and decided on a course of action.

I would expect something to happen similar to the Persian Gulf War - rather than initiate a UN force, the UNSC would instead give the coalition already formed under Article 51 a UNSC mandate to repel the invaders. This would probably result in further nations that had not already joined SK under Article 51 start to provide support. More importantly, it would prohibit any UN member state from assisting NK.

[Travis]

Wouldn't the United Nations be required to send in military aid to South Korea if Kim Jong Il finally goes completely bonkers and attacks? The United Kingdom, France, and so on, wouldn't they send troops?

Any chance that North Korean soldiers would attempt some kind of revolt against the government if war happens?

Wanting to send troops and the ability to actually send formations of any consequence is another. Sending massive amounts of military hardware to South Korea would be difficult if you didn't have the practice or the facilities to do it. The UK had a pretty hard time sending two armored brigades to Iraq. Trying to send multiple divisions to Korea would be an order of magnitude harder. It could be done but it would take time.

[Architect]

There have been frequent warnings in the UK that our troops are now severely stretched by overseas peacekeeping operations and that we don't have any real slack left.

[headscratcher4]

There seems to be a notion that South Korea would not be able to handle a first strike by the North. One should assume that their defense planning assumes that Soul gets flattened in the first couple of hours. The South's army is better equipped, better fed, has the most modern communications capability, has more in the way of oil and food reserves, as well as access to more support from the US, Japan, Australia, etc.

The North has more than a million people in their army. But, how much of that million are more than mere prison guards? How much oil do they have to fuel their Southern advance? How much ammo? A nuke thrown at the South, or at Japan, would reap nuclear retaliation. In addition, as soon as a Northern invasion begins, the US and South Korea would be targeting by air and missles every airbase and missle base in the North (and we know where they are). THe north, like Iraq, would be left with so/so mobile missles that down't have the throw weight or consistency and quality of their fixed systems.

The North can reap havock. THey can kill a million southerners. THey can not sustain the battle. That's their problem. China isn't going to sustain a pre-emptive attack and risk a wider war and the loss of their economic gains. THe Russians aren't going to get involved this time either. The North will be doing this alone. They are dangerous, but they have to win on day one or the lose. And, I don't think they can win on day one, especially if the US and the South are on warning.

This is a lot of talk about nothing....unless they are completely deluded (possible) and than they die.

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090530/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/as_gates_asia_security_summit

North Korea has a "dark" future.

[Darth Rotor]

DR, you are right about the positioning, but at least the cruise missile assets can be brought up where Kim cannot see them. However this is not true of his friends the ChiComs; They have two working spysats last I heard, and lots of patrol aircraft.

Yes, Ben, there is that, but I will caveat my head nod with the hard reality that the number of TLAMS required is rather substantial. (Hell, it was more than substantial big dollar war game I was in over a decade ago, and NK's tunnel.) Cruise missiles, conventional warhead, have a limit to what they can do. What then can do, however, does make me grin. :D

Not sure China would be willing to get into the shooting bit against NK, but I sure would hope it. Just think it's a low probability bet.

DR

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Japan has an impressive military, from what I've heard. Given that they're at risk of perhaps being attacked, would they send troops if North Korea heads south? Are they even allowed to, after that unpleasantness back in the thirties and forties? I can't imagine that North Korea would have a chance against Japan and South Korea.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Japan has an impressive military, from what I've heard. Given that they're at risk of perhaps being attacked, would they send troops if North Korea heads south? Are they even allowed to, after that unpleasantness back in the thirties and forties? I can't imagine that North Korea would have a chance against Japan and South Korea.

A thousand times no (and the unpleasantness with Japan and Korea extended well before the 30's and 40's).

I don't care how backed against the wall South Korea might be. They would never allow Japanese troops on their territory.

That said, they might, and probably would accept Japanese logistical or monetary support -- either directly, or via the U.S. Or Japanese naval support, outside of their waters, though it would be surprising if north Korea were able to venture too far away from shore, aside from some Special Forces craft.

[boloboffin]

You know what I would shower the country with?

IPhones. Blackberries. IPods. Nintendo DSi's. All with easy-to-follow applications for the technically inept. Devote scads of mobile broadband capability to the country. Make sure a video plays at the very beginning with a brief explanation of what the device is and how isolated the country really is.

There would be blood, but it would be Dear Leader's. And maybe they'd get over the embarassment when we hook them up to the power grid.

[timhau]

Japan has an impressive military, from what I've heard. Given that they're at risk of perhaps being attacked, would they send troops if North Korea heads south? Are they even allowed to, after that unpleasantness back in the thirties and forties? I can't imagine that North Korea would have a chance against Japan and South Korea.

The quickest way to unify Korea is to send Japanese troops to the peninsula.

[MG1962]

You know what I would shower the country with?

IPhones. Blackberries. IPods. Nintendo DSi's. All with easy-to-follow applications for the technically inept. Devote scads of mobile broadband capability to the country. Make sure a video plays at the very beginning with a brief explanation of what the device is and how isolated the country really is.

There would be blood, but it would be Dear Leader's. And maybe they'd get over the embarassment when we hook them up to the power grid.

A great idea till the batteries fail

[Darth Rotor]

You know what I would shower the country with?

IPhones. Blackberries. IPods. Nintendo DSi's. All with easy-to-follow applications for the technically inept. Devote scads of mobile broadband capability to the country. Make sure a video plays at the very beginning with a brief explanation of what the device is and how isolated the country really is.

There would be blood, but it would be Dear Leader's. And maybe they'd get over the embarassment when we hook them up to the power grid.
NOt much of an idea. The wireless networks to support your Iphone and Blackberry showers are not what you might assume them to be. You seem to take a few things for granted here.

As to the others, good plan, batteries remark considered, in that it will act as an opiate to the people: to busy trying to score a high game or listen to tunes that don't exist, to worry about starving or being cold in winter. By all means, help out the Dear Leader. :p

DR

[boloboffin]

It's not something that could be done tomorrow, granted. But the resources could be put together with all kinds of temporary cell phone towers, etc. The devices are not about entertainment but about connecting the populace to the world in a way that Dear Leader can't avoid. Set up phone banks in South Korea so that people in the North can call and talk to someone in Korean about how isolated they are.

As long as the batteries last for that call and for some censorship-free Internet surfing, that's all the North needs. A second shower of replaceable batteries with instructions on changing them even.

I know it's not going to happen. But the problem is connectivity.

[Travis]

I doubt very many of the people would even pick them up out of fear. I read a travel blog once about an American tourist in North Korea and one thing he found strange was how afraid everyone was to even say "hi" to him. Even way out in the middle of nowhere the villagers would try to ignore him and generally seemed very afraid someone might report them to the authorities if they talked to him. When you figure just about every family in the country has probably had someone taken off to a camp and tortured to death universal fear and obedience are expected.

[gumboot]

Cellphones are entirely useless unless you have cellphone towers. Does North Korea even have a 3G or GSM mobile network?

Or would we parachute in the cellphone towers as well, with little generators attached? :rolleyes:

[boloboffin]

Well, screw it. Carpet bomb them and let's all go back to sleep.

[headscratcher4]

The Japanese -- for all the Shinto temple tempests -- are very sensitive about Korea and the North in Particular. There's a large Korean population that lives in Japan that continues to send money, etc. to the North, and even with all of the current todo, the Japanese have yet to cut that tie to the North for fear of being provocative.

I keep coming back to two major points that will cause the North, eventually to back down. First, they can't do much without China's support...and you have to go a long way right now to believe that China wants to get into it (i.e. essentially a war with the U.S.) over Korea.

Second, North Korea has very limited resources for an invasion. Without massive resupply by China and Russia (a'la their support for the North's invasion that started the Korean War), the North simply can't sustain a push south for very long. For example, they have very limited fuel supplies...so unless they are able to strike a knock-out blow (by surprise), any push south that lasts more than a couple of days is likely to run into huge re-supply problems for the North (not to mention desertion rates once the bulk of the Army -- the troops not accorded special priviledge by the regime -- get a look at the lie that they've been fed about conditions in the South).

And, it is difficult to see how they would score such a surprise given that both the US and the South are currently on high alert...and, for example, once troops were seen moving across the boarder...while it is farther away, Pyongyang is in easy distance for missles and an air attack...while Soeul will suffer...so too will Pyongyang, it will essentially disapear.

Anyway, North Korea wants something or is doing this for internal reasons, it is hard to see why they would commit institutional suicide right now.

[tomwaits]

Cellphones are entirely useless unless you have cellphone towers. Does North Korea even have a 3G or GSM mobile network?

Or would we parachute in the cellphone towers as well, with little generators attached? :rolleyes:


It is to my understanding that certain higher-ups in the government have cellphones. I found this article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28224515/) from back in December about how an Egyptian company was planning on setting up some infrastructure in Pyongyang.

[dudalb]

[quote]Anyway, North Korea wants something or is doing this for internal reasons, it is hard to see why they would commit institutional suicide right now. [/quote.]
In which case they should not get what they want. I am tired of being blackmailed by these bozos.
If done for internal purposes, they should be ignored.
You are probably right, but there is also the small but real chance that elements in the government have decided that the country is near a state of collapse, will take the regime with it, and that the only chance they have is a takeover of South Korea. Totally irrational, but assuming rationality on the part of the NK Government is a very big assumption IMHO.

[headscratcher4]

But, they can't take over South Korea. THey can, if crazy, cause a lot of damage and kill a lot of people, but South Korea isn't some fat sitting duck. It has a well equipped, modern army that is currently on alert. It has the U.S. as an ally (which may even have nukes on the Peninsula). It has a superior air force. It has superior supplies and supply lines. It has superior miliatry supply lines. They are better fed. They have 30 million more people than the North. Whatever else is going on, about the only thing the North can accomplish is to create terrible havock and murder on a large scale, but it is essentially impossible for the North to win and reunify the country on its terms. The only way the North would even have a chance is if they had the full support and complete cooperation of the Chinese, and given that the Chinese own the US, right now, they've no interest in the US being involved in a land war on their boarder or a country that boarders China.

My point is, there's a lot of hand wringing and understandable outrage about the crazy North Koreans, but keep in mind that their strategy in the past has always been about maintaining the regime. Why would you assume that it changes now? And, if the strategy is about maintainning the regime, it is a goal that even they must recognize can not be accomplished by an invasion of the South...especially an invasion that both the South and the US are on alert for.

[egslim]

You are probably right, but there is also the small but real chance that elements in the government have decided that the country is near a state of collapse, will take the regime with it, and that the only chance they have is a takeover of South Korea.
Unlikely, but even assuming that's the case, I see very little that can be done about it. South Korea already has such military and logistical superiority over the North, if that's insufficient deterrent, nothing will deter them.

I place this in the category of 'unlikely events, whose likelyhood is beyond our control', which means they're best ignored from a rational POV.

Just maintain existing readiness and superiority, and get on with business as usual.

[portlandatheist]

Rumor is that Kim Jong-un, son of Kim Jong-il's favorite wife, is now slated as next tyrant of NK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8078562.stm

[Toke]

I wonder what 50 years of propaganda and malnutrition will do to a population education wise?

[Travis]

I wonder what 50 years of propaganda and malnutrition will do to a population education wise?

For interesting insight read this:http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

[BenBurch]

North Korea


THE SEVEN COMMANDMENTS

1. Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3. No animal shall wear clothes.
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5. No animal shall drink alcohol.
6. No animal shall kill any other animal.
7. All animals are equal (but some are more equal than others).

- George Orwell

Pretty much.

[shuize]

When I was a kid, I had a toy motorcycle I rode around that I called "the Big-Un." I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

Who would have thought "the Big-Un" would be back in dictator form all these years later.

[Pardalis]

I wonder what 50 years of propaganda and malnutrition will do to a population education wise?

That's why I'm more worried NK will go Tchernobyl than make an actual nuclear strike.

[Toke]

For interesting insight read this:http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

Thanks, very interesting, will read the rest of the pages tonight.

Tchernobyl, yes possible.

[headscratcher4]

That's why I'm more worried NK will go Tchernobyl than make an actual nuclear strike.


Yes, they could...assuming some sort of accuracy and reliabilty of their device. But the question I've got is why doesn't MAD apply to them? They are not apocolyptic...in spite of the rhetoric. What they are after is security for the regime, first and foremost, the other goals...like reunification... are more visionary than realistic. Survival of the regime means winning concessions from their enemies and support from their friends...the only one they've left with any real power is China and it could get very bored with this government. Lobbing a bomb in to the South, Japan or even the US will bring about the immediate and total distruction of the the North. Not a surgical strike, mind you, a wipe-out.

As I think BSPG (Sorry if I mis-remembered you initials!) made the more important point, if they've got Nuclear technology, they will want to sell it for cash. At the same time, that is something China is going to take a very dim view of. As now a prominent member of the nuclear club, China can't see nuclear proliferation as a good thing...it wants to be one of the few countries controlling it...so, I think, ultiately they will clamp down on the North.

More and more, pieces seem to be falling into place that suggest that this is all about a possible future succession of Kim's younger son. Prior to Kim being elevated by his own father, he was "put in charge" of a period of "struggle" to "prove" his merit. It is looking like Kim #3 is being pushed forward in a similar manner...and there is an effort to get NK foriegn Service and military representatives to swear alliegence to Kim #3 & #2. That would make this billigerence part of a bigger picture of proving that Kim 2&3 are proponents of what they call the "Army First" strategy...which elevates the Army and its needs as the most important institution in the country. There's got to be a passle of senior military men there someone concered about a sickly "Great Leader" and young "Commander Kim" known to have a drinking problem.

In any event, it would seem that so long as regime survival is the key to understanding what is going on there... other than the annoyance value, there is little, IMO, to worry about. Again, the South and US are on high alert and while they may not have great intelligence about the inner-workings of the NK state, they've got sattilites pictures that can tell them about troop movements, etc. ANd, the only way the NK could even hope to win is a quick, overwhelming surprise invasion that catches the South completely off-gaurd (and that has the blessing of China -- in which case we're all screwed). There is no possiblility just now that they could surprise either the South or Us.

[Toke]

For interesting insight read this:http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

Nice travel decription.
The worship of the Kim´s and the ignorance of the outside world is worse than I throught, but must be a great help in maintaining a dictatorship.

Let´s hope that somebody there have a realistic view of South Korea, and what it can do.

[dudalb]

With the sentence of the Two Reporters, NK seems to be pushing it to the limit.

[BenBurch]

With the sentence of the Two Reporters, NK seems to be pushing it to the limit.

Past my desire for peace, anyway.

[dudalb]

The UN Just passed tougher sanctions against NK. Interesting to see what the reaction will be.
I got the feeling that almost everybody now feels that Negotiating with NK is a waste of time becuase they simply cannot be trusted to abide by any agreement they make. Their history of siging agreements, then breaking them a year or so later when the heat is off is finally cathching up to them.
IMHO this is going to get very ugly.

[shuize]

I just finished Charles Jenkins' (one of the American defectors to North Korea) story "The Reluctant Communist." It was fairly interesting until the very end when his claims that he didn't (and doesn't) receive any special treatment by the U.S. military or Japanese government started to stretch credibility.

Here's something else I found online about an English language editor who worked revising political propaganda in North Korea for a year. It's a bit dated but also interesting in parts:

http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang.html

[quixotecoyote]

For interesting insight read this:http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

If that was at all representative of general sentiment, you'd never be able to occupy the place. If it ends up being a military solution to the nuclear issue, they'll have to raze the place to the ground.

[shuize]

For those who find this sort of thing interesting, here's a blog devoted to keeping an eye on the North Korean economy:

http://www.nkeconwatch.com/

[shuize]

If that was at all representative of general sentiment, you'd never be able to occupy the place. If it ends up being a military solution to the nuclear issue, they'll have to raze the place to the ground.


True. But if Jenkins' book is any guide, you'll be happy to know he reports being able to erase about two decades worth of ideological indoctrination by handing each of his two daughters a $50 bill* and turning them loose at the base PX in Japan.

* Actually, he said it was his lawyer's idea, being too much of a tightwad to think of it himself.

[Architect]

Ahha, the daft buggers are at it again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/13/north-korea-nuclear-weapon-plutonium

[Puppycow]

Ahha, the daft buggers are at it again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/13/north-korea-nuclear-weapon-plutonium

The time for carrots is over. Time to get the big sticks.

[dudalb]

True. But if Jenkins' book is any guide, you'll be happy to know he reports being able to erase about two decades worth of ideological indoctrination by handing each of his two daughters a $50 bill* and turning them loose at the base PX in Japan.

* Actually, he said it was his lawyer's idea, being too much of a tightwad to think of it himself.


LIke Pj O Rouke's statement that dozens of years of Communist rule in Russia was wrecked by Levi,s, Rock and Roll, and VCRs.

[dudalb]

I think it is a sign of how bad the situation is is that OBama in not sending envoys or making a huge deal about the two reporters who were sentecned as spys in a Kangeroo court right out of Stalin's Purge trials. Which is precisely the right way to handle it.

Tuesday CNN had some fool with a PHD on who blamed the US and South Korea for the crisis, talked about "liberal elements withing the Korean Government" and urged immediate reunification of Korea. A superb example of at times academia is the most totally removed place on earth from reality...except for maybe North Korea.

[shuize]

Ahha, the daft buggers are at it again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/13/north-korea-nuclear-weapon-plutonium


From the link:

There was no attempt to expand the sanctions to exports and imports of non-military goods. This is partly because China and Russia would have been opposed, but also because of fears a collapse of the North Korean economy would result in a flood of refugees into South Korea.


That can't be right. They must mean China.