Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?

[Greatest I am]

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?


Matthew 5:48 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=48&version=9&context=verse)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Genesis 3:5 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Neither of the perfect above speak of miracle working as a benefit of being as God.

Matthew 17:20 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Much of religion is based on the belief that God is a perfect miracle worker.
Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.
Genesis 3 indicates that to be as Gods we must eat of the tree of knowledge as Eve did but it does not say anything about gaining the ability to do miracles.

Matthew 17 indicates that any that have even a small amount of faith can do miracles.
Either miracles are available to man and God, or not.
Jesus indicates that they are but is it possible that those who say they have faith do not really because no one has yet shown even the small amount of faith that would trigger the miracle working ability.
I personally do not believe in miracles but at the same time I do not like the idea that those of faith are deceiving themselves or others as to the reality of their faith.

What do those of Faith, from the Pope on down to protestant faiths, think of Matthew 17.

Is there not one man alive with this small amount of faith?

Regards
DL

[A Christian Sceptic]

Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.[/SIZE]

Actually - it indicates that Jesus followers should strive for and can love their enemies.

[dafydd]

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?


Matthew 5:48 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=48&version=9&context=verse)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Genesis 3:5 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Neither of the perfect above speak of miracle working as a benefit of being as God.

Matthew 17:20 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Much of religion is based on the belief that God is a perfect miracle worker.
Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.
Genesis 3 indicates that to be as Gods we must eat of the tree of knowledge as Eve did but it does not say anything about gaining the ability to do miracles.

Matthew 17 indicates that any that have even a small amount of faith can do miracles.
Either miracles are available to man and God, or not.
Jesus indicates that they are but is it possible that those who say they have faith do not really because no one has yet shown even the small amount of faith that would trigger the miracle working ability.
I personally do not believe in miracles but at the same time I do not like the idea that those of faith are deceiving themselves or others as to the reality of their faith.

What do those of Faith, from the Pope on down to protestant faiths, think of Matthew 17.

Is there not one man alive with this small amount of faith?

Regards
DL


The bible does not indicate anything.Do The Lord Of The Rings or The Lion,the Witch and the Wardrobe indicate anything? The bible is a work of fiction too.

[Pure Argent]

Or maybe faith is so incredibly small that it is physically impossible for a single human being to have enough "faith particles" to put them together and have the resulting thing be the size of a mustard seed.

Yeah. See, religious people? I have given you a platform upon which to base your argument. And now I will proceed to agree with dafydd.

[Tumblehome]

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful? (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=48&version=9&context=verse)


As you pointed out yourself, the answer is yes and no. It's pointless trying to find specific answers from selected bible quotes. You can always find other quotes that directly contradict them.

If a meandering collection of writings from various sources made sense as a whole, that would be a miracle.

[5sisters]

If we were perfect we would not need God. We do know the difference of good and evil from the tree of knowlege. We just don't do use it all to do all good. But we did not eat of the tree of life which would make us like God. He performs miricales for us. I should know. He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

[H3LL]

He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

That's nice to hear.

So we have an all powerful being with full knowledge of the past, present and future that's all tied into an intricate divine plan for all time, everywhere. He has stated quite clearly that he never changes his mind.

However, he seems to have changed his mind because you had a chat. Stuff the divine plan - You had a chat so that's OK.

Well done.

The OP seems to be wrong. You, at least seem to perform miracles.




Who is being subservient to who here?

Is the divine plan nothing more than a throw together managed on a daily/hourly basis by a committee of millions of little whims?

.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

If we were perfect we would not need God. We do know the difference of good and evil from the tree of knowlege. We just don't do use it all to do all good. But we did not eat of the tree of life which would make us like God. He performs miricales for us. I should know. He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

How did Adam and Eve know not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil if they had no knowledge of good or evil? :confused:

[Greatest I am]

Actually - it indicates that Jesus followers should strive for and can love their enemies.

The same love that Jesus/God showed in Noah's day?

Regards
DL

[slingblade]

If we were perfect we would not need God. We do know the difference of good and evil from the tree of knowlege. We just don't do use it all to do all good. But we did not eat of the tree of life which would make us like God. He performs miricales for us. I should know. He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

Bull. What you think are "answers to prayers" are a combination of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and whole heaping helpings of wishful thinking.

See, I already know the pat answer to what I'm about to ask; trust me, I do.
But I know people just as good as you in every way, and I even know a few people better than you in every way, and they didn't get their prayers answered. Not a yes, a no, or a maybe later; just silence. A cosmic "gotta figure it out yourself, kid, cuz you are really all you have."

I know that many, maybe all, of the people who lost their lives on Sept. 11 were praying, and praying mighty hard. And yet, we can still watch as your god seemed to prefer they fling themselves, yet living, from the shattered, smoke-blackened windows to the pavement a hundred stories below.

Nice guy, your god. Couldn't even lift one holy finger to pluck someone from the air, from the smoke. Couldn't hold those buildings up long enough for everyone to get out...couldn't be bothered to do a damned thing.

You know why? No, it's not because the people weren't faithful, or were sinners (I mean hey, aren't we all?), or didn't say the words right, or caught god during a nap or a golf game.

The answer is: There's nothing out there. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

But hey, you go ahead and keep talking to air. It apparently makes religious types feel better than, oh, I dunno, actually lifting a freaking finger to help people with the sweat of their own brows and the strength of their own backs. Of course you did something: you prayed. Big help.

[Greatest I am]

If we were perfect we would not need God. We do know the difference of good and evil from the tree of knowlege. We just don't do use it all to do all good. But we did not eat of the tree of life which would make us like God. He performs miricales for us. I should know. He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

Deuteronomy 32:4 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

We are all God's works then. Are we not all created perfect?
If yes then why do most consider all men to be born with sin on our souls?

If all created perfect then why could God only find 8 good souls at the time of Noah and the genocidal flood?

Regards
DL

[A Christian Sceptic]

The same love that Jesus/God showed in Noah's day?

Regards
DL

Judging from the paragraph the sentence you quoted is part of I would have to say it's the same love you have towards someone who loves you - to not only love someone who is your neighbor and neighborly towards you.

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Your (intentionally or not) misrepresenting how the last sentence is being used and what the perfect action being talked about is.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Deuteronomy 32:4 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

We are all God's works then. Are we not all created perfect?
If yes then why do most consider all men to be born with sin on our souls?

If all created perfect then why could God only find 8 good souls at the time of Noah and the genocidal flood?

Regards
DL

Just wondering - why do you think creation ends at conception when all of human life shows it doesn't? You're no longer a Zygote nor a Toddler - Correct?

[slingblade]

Just wondering - why do you think creation ends at conception when all of human life shows it doesn't? You're no longer a Zygote nor a Toddler - Correct?


Definition of create (verb)
forms: created; created; creating
to produce; to design; to make; to manufacture

When does creation end, then? How about you tell us, since you seem to have an opinion on it?

[A Christian Sceptic]

Definition of create (verb)
forms: created; created; creating
to produce; to design; to make; to manufacture

When does creation end, then? How about you tell us, since you seem to have an opinion on it?

I'd say creation lasts at least until you die, possibly longer.

[Greatest I am]

Judging from the paragraph the sentence you quoted is part of I would have to say it's the same love you have towards someone who loves you - to not only love someone who is your neighbor and neighborly towards you.



Your (intentionally or not) misrepresenting how the last sentence is being used and what the perfect action being talked about is.

Are you saying that genocide against man is a perfect action? How is killing children and babies a perfect action?

Regards
DL

[A Christian Sceptic]

Are you saying that genocide against man is a perfect action? How is killing children and babies a perfect action?

Regards
DL

Are those talked about anywhere in those verses and/or in anyway except by you tied in with what is being talked about?

[Greatest I am]

Just wondering - why do you think creation ends at conception when all of human life shows it doesn't? You're no longer a Zygote nor a Toddler - Correct?

I do not know if I would call the evolution of a zygote to a toddler growth in creation.

How does this question relate to mine about God only being able to, if you prefer, create to maturity, only 8 souls out of millions, including children and babies?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Are those talked about anywhere in those verses and/or in anyway except by you tied in with what is being talked about?

If you will only answer questions with questions, you may as well go away.

Be honest or be gone

Regards
DL

[dafydd]

How did Adam and Eve know not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil if they had no knowledge of good or evil? :confused:

Hold on to your hat,this may come as a shock to you,but Adam and Eve never existed.They are fictional characters.If this is going to be the level of your arguement then you had better go post on a kindergarten site.

[dafydd]

Ignore last post it was intended for Greatest I'm Not

[A Christian Sceptic]

If you will only answer questions with questions, you may as well go away.

Be honest or be gone

Regards
DL

Why?

[A Christian Sceptic]

I do not know if I would call the evolution of a zygote to a toddler growth in creation.

How does this question relate to mine about God only being able to, if you prefer, create to maturity, only 8 souls out of millions, including children and babies?

Regards
DL

Where is this question of yours? You seem to be applying a concept not in those verses to something not talked about in any of those verses.

[dafydd]

Deuteronomy 32:4 (http://forums.randi.org/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

We are all God's works then. Are we not all created perfect?
If yes then why do most consider all men to be born with sin on our souls?

If all created perfect then why could God only find 8 good souls at the time of Noah and the genocidal flood?

Regards
DL

It's a story,there is no god.Your posts are devoid of meaning.Why would Shadowfax only let Gandalf ride him?

[slingblade]

I'd say creation lasts at least until you die, possibly longer.

Then I'd say we differ greatly on the definition and usage of the word.

I don't consider everything living to be in the process of being created throughout its entire life. That rather makes the word meaningless. I definitely differentiate between creation and growth.

[Wildy]

How did Adam and Eve know not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil if they had no knowledge of good or evil? :confused:

Because God said so.

[lolurigeller]

In regards to sisters post, you guys need to cut these people some slack, I have to admit, i've tried recalibrating my mindset to see what it's like to believe in god, but it's pretty difficult when you have to engage the critical mind, and very easy if you simply don't care at all about thinking and just want to go about getting things done in the real world and want to employ every possible mechanism whether it can or can't be discernably real or imaginary.

A better question to throw them off is whether they'd pray to the virgin mary, or any of the historically sanctified saints in history. Yeah i'd pray to god, but i'd also pray to st. Francis of Assissi, Virgin Mary, Mary Magdelene, Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Isis, Mohammed, and petition every single sacred figure on this planet when I'm up against a wall. Of course it doesn't mean my prayer will be answered, but that was never the point in the first place it's like playing the lottery and hoping that miniscule possibility that something good will happen is just a natural instinct. Can't be helped imo.



If we were perfect we would not need God. We do know the difference of good and evil from the tree of knowlege. We just don't do use it all to do all good. But we did not eat of the tree of life which would make us like God. He performs miricales for us. I should know. He has answered a lot of my prayers for me and others I have prayed for.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Then I'd say we differ greatly on the definition and usage of the word.

I don't consider everything living to be in the process of being created throughout its entire life. That rather makes the word meaningless. I definitely differentiate between creation and growth.

Does a sculptor himself consider himself still in the process of creating even if to us his sculpture looks finished? If the sculptor is still molding his art, adding finishing touches, would you consider him to still be in the process of creating?

[slingblade]

Does a sculptor himself consider himself still in the process of creating even if to us his sculpture looks finished?
If the sculptor is still molding his art, adding finishing touches, would you consider him to still be in the process of creating?

I said: I definitely differentiate between creation and growth.

And that's what I mean.


ETA: living things grow, by the way. Sculptures don't. I'm talking about living things, not objets d'art. That is the differentiation I make between the two. You must have not comprehended.

[Elizabeth I]

Does a sculptor himself consider himself still in the process of creating even if to us his sculpture looks finished? If the sculptor is still molding his art, adding finishing touches, would you consider him to still be in the process of creating?

At some point, the sculptor quits adding "finishing touches" and allows the work to be sold and/or exhibited. He doesn't hang around after that chipping off pieces of marble here or adding lumps of clay there. It's finished.