So, whatever happened to Steorn?

[Z]

I haven't heard anything from the Steorn folks for a while - did they take their investments and bolt, or are they still convincing people they have a free energy machine?

[Horatius]

The last thing I can find is yet another "Any day now!" announcement from Feb. 2009, that seems to coincide with an update of their website.

[Freethinker]

I haven't heard anything either, but my guess is they are very close to having it ready for market, with just a few bugs to work out as soon as they can secure a little more fnding. Or not.

[Pantaz]

The Steorn forums (http://www.steorn.com/forum/) are actually pretty active. The latest (relevant) discussions are about "The 300 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61704&page=1#Item_0)".

A handful of True BelieversTM still post the occasional, "Just wait, you'll see!"

[Zeuzzz]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collpase the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation, so the technology was classified by intelligence agencies and not disclosed on national security grounds.

Business perspective: They got brought out and told to keep quiet about their discovery by the immensly powerful and wealthy energy industries.

Science persepctive: Their technology breaks the laws of physics and should not be possible. Money making scam.

My perspective: Undecided. Probably Scam.

[ben m]

Science persepctive: Their technology breaks the laws of physics and should not be possible. Money making scam.

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity" perspective: They screwed up big time and are still puzzled by why their "technology" can't scale up reliably. Money-losing epic fail.

[Zeuzzz]

Yeah, actually, I think they did belive in what they were doing at first, but now are just being dishonest and not owning up to its failure. Thus scamming people. They still accepting donations?

[temporalillusion]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collpase the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation, so the technology was classified by intelligence agencies and not disclosed on national security grounds.

This one is always interesting to me because there's a grain of truth in there. If free energy (or some other event changes all the rules like parking a gold asteroid in orbit to mine it and get rich haha!) did come it would change everything, and change can be hard to manage.

I don't think governments could do anything about it (cue the dramatic scene where the plans get transmitted to the world at the last second), but a transition plan would be nice to have rather than chaos.

[wackyvorlon]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collpase the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation, so the technology was classified by intelligence agencies and not disclosed on national security grounds.

Business perspective: They got brought out and told to keep quiet about their discovery by the immensly powerful and wealthy energy industries.



That ignores the billions, potential trillions, of dollars that could be made selling the device. Made sufficiently portable, every car manufactured in the world would ship with one. Do you know how many buildings have backup generators? You could replace nuclear reactors around the world with them.

The money to be made from such a device makes the oil industry profits look like pennies. IMO, the notion that there's more money to be made from suppressing it, than from manufacturing it, implies a lack of marketing forethought.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

That ignores the billions, potential trillions, of dollars that could be made selling the device. Made sufficiently portable, every car manufactured in the world would ship with one. Do you know how many buildings have backup generators? You could replace nuclear reactors around the world with them.

The money to be made from such a device makes the oil industry profits look like pennies. IMO, the notion that there's more money to be made from suppressing it, than from manufacturing it, implies a lack of marketing forethought.

I disagree. The way that the pen and pencil global conglomerates squashed the life out of the nascent computer industry proves that vested interests will always defeat innovation. Oh...

[Horatius]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collapse the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation, so the technology was classified by intelligence agencies and not disclosed on national security grounds.




I've been wondering if this would even happen, assuming some sort of Free Energy device was even possible.


This position seems to be based on the fact that our economy is heavily dependent on our energy systems. If all gas, coal and oil were to vanish overnight, the economy would collapse, because we wouldn't have the energy to do anything else - no transport, no manufacturing, no heating, no cooling.

But, introducing a free energy device would not be like oil, gas and coal vanishing. The FE device would replace the gas, oil and coal - we'd still have the energy, which is what we really wanted in the first place. Sure, the oil companies would tank, but every other company in the world that uses energy would have their costs dramatically reduced!

Wouldn't the economic gains to every other company offset most, if not all, of the economic losses to the oil companies?

[69dodge]

Sure, the oil companies would tank, but every other company in the world that uses energy would have their costs dramatically reduced!

Wouldn't the economic gains to every other company offset most, if not all, of the economic losses to the oil companies?

More than all.

If everyone used the same amount of energy that they do now, except that they got it for free instead of paying the oil companies, things would be even. But, of course, if energy were free, people would use more of it than if they had to pay for it. The extra energy that they could then use would be a net win.

[Cuddles]

collpase the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation

What, again?

The FE device would replace the gas, oil and coal - we'd still have the energy, which is what we really wanted in the first place. Sure, the oil companies would tank, but every other company in the world that uses energy would have their costs dramatically reduced!

I've never quite understood this line of thought. Free energy refers to the lack of a finite source, not to the cost. Even if you're producing energy via some magical perpetual motion machine, it will still cost something to build, distribute, maintain and so on. Even in a world where perpetual motion is possible, there's no such thing as cost free energy.

When it comes down to it, we already have exactly this kind of energy source. Things like wind, solar and tidal power are close enough to free energy for all practical purposes. You stick a fan up on a big stick and watch it spin around until the Sun goes out. What more do you want? And yet wind power is not only not free, it's currently quite a bit more expensive than using fossil fuels, because the construction and maintainence costs are rather high. A perpetual motion machine would likely be cheaper since you probably wouldn't have to go to the trouble of sticking on remote hills and wouldn't have to worry about the wind not blowing or being too strong or getting hit by UFOs, but you'll still have all the other problems and costs to deal with.

If we really got a free energy device, every other company in the world that uses energy would just be paying someone else for that energy. Or, more likely, paying exactly the same people for that energy given that they're the ones in by far the best position to exploit that sort of thing.

[Seren_]

* double post *

[Seren_]

In 2007, there was an anonymous jury of experts who were evaluating the technology and were about to give theirs conclusions at the end of the year.

link (copy of the official Steorn website):

http://web.archive.org/web/20070221052040/http://www.steorn.net/news/releases/?id=911

Now, in 2009, there is a selection of 300 people who will evaluate the technology and will start the commercialisation at the end of the year.

The mysterious jury has disappeared from the official communication. Nothing has happened in 2 years... This is an awful lot of time to say "it works" or "it does not work".

This is *very* fishy : either the jury has never existed or it has given its conclusions who were not revealed by Steorn...

[Aepervius]

One of the hypothese I saw in steorn forum, is that maybe the jury existed, but they never got anything but theoretical papers, and so they gave up in frustration, but are locked in due to NDA not to say anything.

Bottom line is that in 3 years they [Steorn] neither presented a mechanism by which they could get FE, nor did htey demonstrate it. OTOH they got 14+ millions euros investments. Sooooo... my pick is : delusion at first / measurement error, but now it is a scam, where they bilk their investment up to the end, then when all dired up, the last one switch the lights off.

[Horatius]

I've never quite understood this line of thought. Free energy refers to the lack of a finite source, not to the cost. Even if you're producing energy via some magical perpetual motion machine, it will still cost something to build, distribute, maintain and so on. Even in a world where perpetual motion is possible, there's no such thing as cost free energy.





Well, that's why I said their costs would be "dramatically reduced"; there would still be some sort of cost, for equipment if nothing else. It would depend on the exact nature of the "Free Energy" device. But, unless it was the worst FE device ever, it would cost less than traditional sources (otherwise, who would use it?). These savings would more than offset the losses the traditional energy companies would experience.

But, even if it was all equal, we still wouldn't have an economic collapse. There'd be some unpleasant restructuring maybe, but the world would go on, and eventually be even better. Oilmen would take their place in history next to buggy whip makers.

[Ziggurat]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collpase the world energy market

And electric refrigeration collapsed the ice delivery market. And cars collapsed the horse market. And containerized shipping put tens of thousands of steevedors out of work. And on and on.

and ruin the global economies foundation

No, it would make global economic output skyrocket. Making part of the economy superfluous is a good thing, because it increases overall efficiencies and frees resources to be allocated to more productive uses.

Business perspective: They got brought out and told to keep quiet about their discovery by the immensly powerful and wealthy energy industries.

Who would realize that they've got a lot more to gain by taking advantage of such technology than by sitting on it. Nobody with any business sense has more loyalty to their product line than to their bottom line.

Science persepctive: Their technology breaks the laws of physics and should not be possible. Money making scam.

The only position you gave which makes any sense.

[Mojo]

The mysterious jury has disappeared from the official communication. Nothing has happened in 2 years... This is an awful lot of time to say "it works" or "it does not work".

This is *very* fishy : either the jury has never existed or it has given its conclusions who were not revealed by Steorn...


See here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2345034#post2345034), and the following comment by Horatius.

[CapelDodger]

A perpetual motion machine would likely be cheaper since you probably wouldn't have to go to the trouble of sticking on remote hills and wouldn't have to worry about the wind not blowing or being too strong or getting hit by UFOs, but you'll still have all the other problems and costs to deal with.

The real money's in the credit arrangement and extended warranties :cool:.

[Cuddles]

Well, that's why I said their costs would be "dramatically reduced"; there would still be some sort of cost, for equipment if nothing else. It would depend on the exact nature of the "Free Energy" device. But, unless it was the worst FE device ever, it would cost less than traditional sources (otherwise, who would use it?). These savings would more than offset the losses the traditional energy companies would experience.

But why do you think costs would be reduced at all? As I pointed out, for all intents and purposes, things like wind and solar power are free energy. It doesn't matter if your energy comes from some unknown magical energy field or from a giant nuclear reactor beaming energy at us, the end result is that you can build some kind of machine that will just keep producing energy for as long as you can keep it going. And yet wind power is not cheap at all, because building and maintaining complex machinery turns out to be fairly complicated.

Your "who would use it" question is a very important point that people in discussions about perpetual motion almost always fail to consider. The trouble is, you seem to have it backwards. You can't ask what the point would be if it was expensive, and therefore assume that it must be cheaper. You have to work out how much it would cost and then see if anyone would actually use it.

If we discovered free energy that turned out to be extremely weak and require a whole power station-sized generator to power a 100W bulb then yes, it would be extremely expensive and no-one would use it. But it would still be free energy. People always seem to assume that perpetual motion automatically equates to abundant, cheap energy. I don't see any justification for that assumption.

[Horatius]

But why do you think costs would be reduced at all? ....

People always seem to assume that perpetual motion automatically equates to abundant, cheap energy. I don't see any justification for that assumption.



But this discussion started with the Conspiracy Theory of FE suppression. Those who advocate this theory usually postulate that the FE devices are fairly simple, and can be made by some guy in his garage. This is usually why they claim it will "collapse the economy", because "The Man" won't be able to control it; it will let everyone live off the grid.

I was pointing out that, if they are right about how simple FE is, the economy actually wouldn't collapse.

Of course, back in reality, one thing we know pretty much for sure is that, if FE does exist, it won't be some simple garage-based device that does it. In that case, you're correct, that any large scale use will likely follow the models we already have for solar, nuclear, and oil.

[ohms]

This (http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/) was the last I heard about Steorn. Seems like they are still unable to demonstrate a working Orbo.

[volatile]

Their website is just... impenetrable.

I've read the blurb on the SKDB ("Steorn Knowledge Development Base") and still can't figure out even what it's masquerading as, let alone what it actually is. (http://www.steorn.com/skdb/)

[wackyvorlon]

But why do you think costs would be reduced at all? As I pointed out, for all intents and purposes, things like wind and solar power are free energy.

No, they're not. Windmills and solar panels are horribly expensive. They cannot produce output 24 hours a day. The cheapest they get right now is around $2/watt. If we want a 5 MW plant, that's minimum $10 million. Most likely closer to $15 million, including labour to install, grid intertie equipment, batteries, etc.

If we have an average of 5 hours per day at full capacity, (which I think is being generous) that gives us 25MW/hr per day. At the going rate of 8 cents per kilowatt hour, that's $2000 a day. Multiply by 360(five days shutdown for maintainance), we get $720,000 per annum. Divide, and we get 13.8 years before the plant breaks even.

I don't know a businessman in the world who is willing to spend $10 million and wait for thirteen years to break even.

[Horatius]

No, they're not. Windmills and solar panels are horribly expensive.



The point is, the energy is free, but as you point out, the equipment needed to make that energy useful can be expensive. You are actually in agreement with Cuddles here.

Cuddles point is, we'd expect the same thing from any other "free" energy source. Even if they were to find something that violates conservation of energy, it would probably still cost a lot for the equipment to make that energy useful to us.

[Geckko]

Conspiracy perspective: Free energy technology would collpase the world energy market and ruin the global economies foundation, so the technology was classified by intelligence agencies and not disclosed on national security grounds.

Business perspective: They got brought out and told to keep quiet about their discovery by the immensly powerful and wealthy energy industries.

Science persepctive: Their technology breaks the laws of physics and should not be possible. Money making scam.

My perspective: Undecided. Probably Scam.

The science perspective: It doesn't work yet, let's raise more research money and we can keep doing this for years.

The conspiracy perspective: Big oil got to them

The business perspective: Piss off, its worthless.

[Geckko]

for all intents and purposes, things like wind and solar power are free energy.

Just like that "free health care" and "free education".

[Cuddles]

But this discussion started with the Conspiracy Theory of FE suppression. Those who advocate this theory usually postulate that the FE devices are fairly simple, and can be made by some guy in his garage. This is usually why they claim it will "collapse the economy", because "The Man" won't be able to control it; it will let everyone live off the grid.

I was pointing out that, if they are right about how simple FE is, the economy actually wouldn't collapse.

Fair enough. However, even in that situation I'd question the conclusion. There are a great many things that are fairly simple and can be made by some guy in his garage, but that most people still pay a fair amount of money to someone else to do it for them. How many people build their own furniture, maintain their own car, grow their own food, wire their own house, and so on? I bet I could save more money by looking after my own car than I could generating my own electricity.

Even assuming that the conspiracy nuts were correct about the free energy itself, they're horribly wrong in their assessment of human nature. Not that that should come as a big surprise.

The point is, the energy is free, but as you point out, the equipment needed to make that energy useful can be expensive. You are actually in agreement with Cuddles here.

Cuddles point is, we'd expect the same thing from any other "free" energy source. Even if they were to find something that violates conservation of energy, it would probably still cost a lot for the equipment to make that energy useful to us.

Exactly.

[Horatius]

Fair enough. However, even in that situation I'd question the conclusion. There are a great many things that are fairly simple and can be made by some guy in his garage, but that most people still pay a fair amount of money to someone else to do it for them. How many people build their own furniture, maintain their own car, grow their own food, wire their own house, and so on? I bet I could save more money by looking after my own car than I could generating my own electricity.




Sure, you could probably buy a ready-made ZPM, or some such thing.

I see it this way: If I were inclined to generate my own electricity, I could buy a gas-powered generator, for upfront $X, and then supply it for the lifetime Y years of the generator for $Z per year. So, my total cost for electricity would be $(X + YZ). Having a ZPM eliminates the yearly cost, and so we'd only have the upfront costs of $A.

Why would I buy the ZPM if A > (X + YZ)? If it was just a bit more, maybe I'd do it for environmental reasons (see power, wind), but for large-scale, world changing effects, you'd need almost everyone to start using the ZPMs, and the majority of people won't adopt such technologies until A is less than (X + YZ).

If they were inclined to do that, we'd all have windmills in our backyards.

[dahduh]

Their website is just... impenetrable.

I've read the blurb on the SKDB ("Steorn Knowledge Development Base") and still can't figure out even what it's masquerading as, let alone what it actually is. (http://www.steorn.com/skdb/)

Ah, but you missed the part about converting back EMF into forward EMF. That explains everything, see?

[calebprime]

More than all.

If everyone used the same amount of energy that they do now, except that they got it for free instead of paying the oil companies, things would be even. But, of course, if energy were free, people would use more of it than if they had to pay for it. The extra energy that they could then use would be a net win.

Their website is just... impenetrable.

I've read the blurb on the SKDB ("Steorn Knowledge Development Base") and still can't figure out even what it's masquerading as, let alone what it actually is. (http://www.steorn.com/skdb/)

Ah, but you missed the part about converting back EMF into forward EMF. That explains everything, see?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

that reminds me of the good ol' Retro Encabulator.

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

(Wow - all my stuff from three years ago is still there! Who'd have thought?!?!)

[Seren_]

From what I gather from Steorn forum:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61787&page=1#Item_0

The Steorn "300" program is starting with... 84 people.

The program so far consists of elearning lessons every week. This week : Newton's Law.

At that rate they will probably start talking about how Steorn achieved overunity around 2020.

[Foolmewunz]

From what I gather from Steorn forum:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61787&page=1#Item_0

The Steorn "300" program is starting with... 84 people.

The program so far consists of elearning lessons every week. This week : Newton's Law.

At that rate they will probably start talking about how Steorn achieved overunity around 2020.


Anyone have any idea who's behind this blog? Sounds like Sean or the boys - but definitely a devoted follower.

http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/


I think our massive thread on this was over in the Latest Commentary section. For anyone wanting to read a whole lot of posts, do a search for the title "What's wrong with what Steorn is doing?" (I'm stepping out for a few minutes - I'm posting from work.)

[Bobbotov]

The vaunted Steorn jury has come back with a verdict:

"The unanimous verdict of the Jury is that Steorn's attempts to demonstrate the claim have not shown the production of energy. The jury is therefore ceasing work."

A very terse statement from a group that ostensibly put many, many man hours into reviewing this. And yet Steorn is proceeding as if this event which was supposed to be THE validation of their tech had never happened.

[volatile]

The vaunted Steorn jury has come back with a verdict:

"The unanimous verdict of the Jury is that Steorn's attempts to demonstrate the claim have not shown the production of energy. The jury is therefore ceasing work."

A very terse statement from a group that ostensibly put many, many man hours into reviewing this. And yet Steorn is proceeding as if this event which was supposed to be THE validation of their tech had never happened.

Link?

[Bobbotov]

I cannot link as I do not have enough posts. But if you go to Steorn dot com it is under Press Releases.

[ohms]

Here (http://stjury.ning.com/forum/topics/jury-announcement)

Seems like the jury announcement was on Jan 20th but Steorn have only just put it on their website.

[Darat]

Link to the Steorn announcement: http://www.steorn.com/news/releases/?id=1151

Absolutely no mention that they didn't validate the claims!

[Seren_]

And apparently members of the Jury have not seen a working Orbo, they only had access to some data, and not enough apparently...

Pretty hard to validate a technology in these conditions...

How will Steorn explain they have kept the jury conclusions secret for 5 months ?

So far no one has seen a working Orbo outside of Steorn... in 4 years. And then I remember a while ago that, according to Steorn's CEO, the technology was about to be used for water pumps in Africa. It is mind boggling how long one can lie without being caught.

[Bobbotov]

And apparently members of the Jury have not seen a working Orbo, they only had access to some data, and not enough apparently...

Pretty hard to validate a technology in these conditions...

How will Steorn explain they have kept the jury conclusions secret for 5 months ?

So far no one has seen a working Orbo outside of Steorn... in 4 years. And then I remember a while ago that the technology was about to be used for water pumps in Africa. It is mind boggling how long one can lie without being caught.

Steorn has never bothered to explain anything that makes sense so I do not suspect they will in this case either. Like I said previously, they are proceeding as if this never happened with their "300 Engineers," whom are currently in a ten week physics 101 online tutorial program. If qualified physicists cannot ascertain what the tech is how are engineers that have to be taught physics on the fly going to make much progress?

I have followed this for three years as a skeptic and this is pretty much turning out to be a tempest in a tea cup.

[ben m]

Link to the Steorn announcement: http://www.steorn.com/news/releases/?id=1151

Absolutely no mention that they didn't validate the claims!

Also, look at the wording:


Steorn today confirmed that the internet ‘blog’ stjury.ning.com had been posted on behalf of members of the Jury of scientists that Steorn had engaged to conduct an independent review of its Orbo Technology.


That sounds to me like it's been carefully worded to delegitimize the jury announcement. It's not a web page, it's an "internet 'blog'" with scare quotes and everything. No mention of an announcement---just something "had been posted." And no mention that the announcement was the jury chair reporting a unanimous conclusion---just a post "on behalf of members".

And of course, no inkling that this jury was once Steorn's main claim to legitimacy. Remember their $100,000 coming-out ad? It basically said, "We've got this thing working behind closed doors---why should you believe us? Because we're inviting an independent jury to test it. So much for that.

[Bobbotov]

Also, look at the wording:

No mention of an announcement---just something "had been posted." And no mention that the announcement was the jury chair reporting a unanimous conclusion---just a post "on behalf of members".




The announcement was made by the chair person (R.I.MacDonald) of the jury committee as the spokesperson. It is cited on the jury blog linked from the Steorn site.

[D'rok]

Hilarity ensues on the Steorn forum. From user qqqq:

Sean Explains....

'I know each of you has your own theory,
And I'll try to address every query
As to why were proceeding
When even that bleeding
Jury says we're out of our minds quite clearly!'

Sean's Resolve....

'Like a ship abandoned by rats,
We've lost our 007's and babcats.*
But though our project's dead,
We'll steer Steorn straight ahead
Like the Titanic among the ice-caps!'

*(true believers on Steorn's forum)

Sean, on Steorn's Operating Principles...

'Now it's off to new enterprises,
Fresh promises, new disguises.
Perpetual reinvention
Is our noblest intention
And the best way out of a crisis!'

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61803&page=3

[ben m]

The announcement was made by the chair person (R.I.MacDonald) of the jury committee as the spokesperson. It is cited on the jury blog linked from the Steorn site.

I know, you will find that information in the jury's announcemnt; I find it telling (but unsurprising) that Steorn's own announcement buries the link in dismissive and delegitimizing language.

It's like going to Bernard Madoff's web page and finding an announcement like, "Mr. Madoff would like to thank certain subgroups of the financial community (link: www.sec.gov) for their attention to the health of his investments. This group seems to have to 'uploaded' a document about us to some sort of 'e-zine' (link: www.fbi.gov) in case anyone cares. For the most trustworthy information about Mr. Madoff's investment plans, including how to invest, please await our authoritative announcements at www.madoff.co.bm".

[Bobbotov]

I know, you will find that information in the jury's announcemnt; I find it telling (but unsurprising) that Steorn's own announcement buries the link in dismissive and delegitimizing language.


Of course they would do this to keep the con going. Steorn was supposed to send out notifications to some sixty thousand people who had signed up to receive the jury results regardless of outcome and they never did that either after six months. It is in their best interest to just tell folks to "move along, nothing to see here."

Steorn has lied consistently for three years so what does glossing over the obvious mean to them? It means they are still drawing paychecks with investor money and now have promised a new demo and commercialization by year's end. They started yet another developer club of supposedly 300 engineers although I think it is more like ninety that is currently having to watch ten weeks of e-learning modules on physics 101 which seems a bit obtuse for people who ostensibly are qualified to get the real goods. It is BS from top to bottom.

They are supposed to go on talking point lectures in North America in a few months and I just hope they stop near me.

[Horatius]

It is mind boggling how long one can lie without being caught.



The sad part is, they have been caught....and some people still continue to believe them.

[Biff Starbuck]

Thankfully a few web outlets are pointing out the failure. Of course, the boring truth about the device not working almost never gets the same coverage as the hype of the "inventors" describing their new miracle products.

http://gizmodo.com/5301033/independent-jury-rules-on-steorns-free-energy-machine-guilty-of-not-working

Independent Jury Rules On Steorn's Free Energy Machine: Guilty (Of Not Working)

By John Herrman, 10:40 AM on Tue Jun 23 2009

Remember how Steorn, the company who built, hyped, then failed to demonstrate the Orb free energy machine, convened a hand-selected "jury" to evaluate the technology? No? Well, anyway, they've disbanded, unanimously unconvinced.

First, a little recap: In 2006, a little-known IT company announced that it had, in effect, circumvented the law of conservation of energy with its "Orb" generator, which produces "Clean, Free and Constant" power. To mitigate the inevitable response from rational people horrible skeptics, they issued a challenge to the world's scientists in The Economist, claiming they would assemble a qualified, unbiased jury to evaluate their technology. And so they did....

[blutoski]

For old time's sake:


[Jury Announcement (http://stjury.ning.com/forum/topics/jury-announcement)]
[Steorn has "technical difficulties" with "free energy" machine (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/05/steorn-has-technical.html)]
[Video of Steorn CEO explaining why its perpetual motion device failed at demo (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/07/snake-oil-updat/)]
[Intelligent design proponents champion Steorn's perpetual motion device (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/07/yet_another_example_of_credulity_begetti_1.php)]
[First Glimpse at Orbo (http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2007/07/first_glimpse_of_an_orbo.html)]

[CORed]

But this discussion started with the Conspiracy Theory of FE suppression. Those who advocate this theory usually postulate that the FE devices are fairly simple, and can be made by some guy in his garage. This is usually why they claim it will "collapse the economy", because "The Man" won't be able to control it; it will let everyone live off the grid.

I was pointing out that, if they are right about how simple FE is, the economy actually wouldn't collapse.

Of course, back in reality, one thing we know pretty much for sure is that, if FE does exist, it won't be some simple garage-based device that does it. In that case, you're correct, that any large scale use will likely follow the models we already have for solar, nuclear, and oil.

Does anyone really believe, in the age of the internet, that a free energy device that could be built by any handyman in his garage could be suppressed? All you would have to do is publish the plans, and everybody would build one in his garage.

[blutoski]

Does anyone really believe, in the age of the internet, that a free energy device that could be built by any handyman in his garage could be suppressed? All you would have to do is publish the plans, and everybody would build one in his garage.

My impression is that the advocates are actually admitting that the devices are not quite ready, and that they require investment for further devlopment.

'Suppression' is an explanation for why major players like universities or governments or big corporations are not investing in this research to bring the technology to the point where it can actually be demonstrated reliably and therefore viable.

As opposed to the reality, which is that the professionals have concluded it's crackpottery, and feel they would be flushing their money down the toilet.

[Horatius]

My impression is that the advocates are actually admitting that the devices are not quite ready, and that they require investment for further devlopment.





That's true of some, but it seems to me that there are a lot who really believe that practical FE devices are already in existence. Which brings us back to the point that CORed made: They must also believe that suppression is possible, even today, even of something so simple that you can make it in your garage.

Of course, once you've decided to disconnect from reality, it's probably splitting hairs to complain about how large that disconnect is.

[blutoski]

That's true of some, but it seems to me that there are a lot who really believe that practical FE devices are already in existence. Which brings us back to the point that CORed made: They must also believe that suppression is possible, even today, even of something so simple that you can make it in your garage.

Of course, once you've decided to disconnect from reality, it's probably splitting hairs to complain about how large that disconnect is.

Well, exactly. When Elvis has left the building (and is operating the drive-through at Burger King) what can you do?