Israel stages biggest-ever war drill

[Oliver]

Oh my, the drama. Israel's government seem's to be pretty worried about evil Iran, aka: most aggressive, invading country ever:

CNN: Israel stages biggest-ever war drill (http://us.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/31/israel.drill/index.html) 41 min

In other, important news: Ghotbi's vision for Iran football
(http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=195773)

[Marc39]

I guess the Israelis realize that prayer, alone, won't do.

[Oliver]

I guess the Israelis realize that prayer, alone, won't do.


Well, that's what the religious weirdos supporting the "WMD invasion" did, too: Thinking that prayers aren't enough to get rid of their imaginary threats. :rolleyes:

[Marc39]

Well, that's what the religious weirdos supporting the "WMD invasion" did, too: Thinking that prayers aren't enough to get rid of their imaginary threats. :rolleyes:

Legally, there are no imaginary threats. Israel has about as much right to bomb Iran as I've ever seen. It's known as the doctrine of preemptive self-defense.

[parky76]

Iran has more right to bomb Israel then Israel has to bomb Iran.

[tyr_13]

Iran has more right to bomb Israel then Israel has to bomb Iran.

Care to explain that one sports fan?

[Oliver]

Legally, there are no imaginary threats. Israel has about as much right to bomb Iran as I've ever seen. It's known as the doctrine of preemptive self-defense.


Uh huh: Iran needs to stage biggest-ever war drills because Israel and the US actually have nukes and threatend Iran then?

You know what this is all about: "We have nukes, but are not allowed to any nuclear energy whatsoever because you disagree with us".

What an inspiring philosophy of -ehm- BS. :rolleyes:

[Marc39]

Iran has more right to bomb Israel then Israel has to bomb Iran.

Iranian leaders have been threatening Israel security and, indeed, Israel's existence. The verbal threats constitute a threat. The nuclear capabilities constitute an imminent threat.

[Marc39]

Uh huh: Iran needs to stage biggest-ever war drills because Israel and the US actually have nukes and threatend Iran then?

You know what this is all about: "We have nukes, but are not allowed to any nuclear energy whatsoever because you disagree with us".

What an inspiring philosophy of -ehm- BS. :rolleyes:

Iran initiated threats against Israel. No Israeli PM had issued existential threats to Iran. Try to alleviate confusion, rather than perpetuate it.

[parky76]

Iranian leaders have been threatening Israel security and, indeed, Israel's existence. The verbal threats constitute a threat. The nuclear capabilities constitute an imminent threat.

as of today, Iran has no nuclear weapon capabilities. therefore Israel has no reason to attack.

Iran, however, does have the right to attack pre-emptively to protect itself from Israel. And hopefully they will accidentally take out a few settlements too.

[Marc39]

as of today, Iran has no nuclear weapon capabilities. therefore Israel has no reason to attack.

Iran, however, does have the right to attack pre-emptively to protect itself from Israel. And hopefully they will accidentally take out a few settlements too.

According to reliable intelligence agencies, IRan is within 1-4 years of having nuclear capabilities. This represents an imminent threat. Under the law, Israel need not wait until Iran has a nuclear bomb to retaliate. Words and actions have consequences.

[parky76]

According to reliable intelligence agencies, IRan is within 1-4 years of having nuclear capabilities. This represents an imminent threat. Under the law, Israel need not wait until Iran has a nuclear bomb to retaliate. Words and actions have consequences.

Israel HAS nuclear weapons today. Many of them. Israel is more of a threat to Iran.

I hope Iran acts pre-emptively to remove the Israeli threat.

[mortimer]

as of today, Iran has no nuclear weapon capabilities. therefore Israel has no reason to attack.

Iran, however, does have the right to attack pre-emptively to protect itself from Israel. And hopefully they will accidentally take out a few settlements too.
How many settlers do you hope get killed?

[Marc39]

Israel HAS nuclear weapons today. Many of them. Israel is more of a threat to Iran.

I hope Iran acts pre-emptively to remove the Israeli threat.

Israel has never sabre-rattled with regards to their presumed nuclear capabilities. No Israeli leader has even spoken about Israel having nuclear capabilities. Claiming Israel is an offensive threat to Iran would be as lacking in credibility and intelligence as claiming that Israel has Jew-Only roads or that Netanyahu said 9/11 was a good thing.

[parky76]

How many settlers do you hope get killed?

i said settlements. not "settlers".

i wish no harm to innocent Israeli civilians.

[parky76]

Claiming Israel is an offensive threat to Iran would be as lacking in credibility and intelligence as claiming that Israel has Jew-Only roads or that Netanyahu said 9/11 was a good thing.

Or that the Palestine Mandate is still in effect.

Or that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of racism.

Or that the United Nations says that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are legal.

[Marc39]

i said settlements. not "settlers".

i wish no harm to innocent Israeli civilians.

The settlements are legal and the Oslo Agreements permits the Israeli military to protect them.

[mortimer]

i said settlements. not "settlers".

i wish no harm to innocent Israeli civilians.
You know, settlers live in settlements.

But back to the point. You believe Iran has every reason to attack Israel for the sole reason that Israel has nukes? Wouldn't that hold true for every single country in the region (Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc)?

[parky76]

The settlements are legal and the Oslo Agreements permits the Israeli military to protect them.

According to the International Court of Justice, the settlements are illegal.

[Darth Rotor]

i said settlements. not "settlers".

i wish no harm to innocent Israeli civilians.
Tangled up in your own rhetoric, are you?

There is no settlement without settlers. Getting rid of the settlements will bring with it the loss of settlers.

Or do you intend to buy them out?

DR

[Marc39]

Or that the Palestine Mandate is still in effect.

Or that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of racism.

Or that the United Nations says that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are legal.

I have proven the Pal. Mandate remains in effect and the Jewish settlements are legal. You have been defeated.

[parky76]

You know, settlers live in settlements.


if innocent Israeli civilians choose to live in illegal Israeli settlements, then they have chosen to put themselves in harms way.

its just like human shields trying to protect an Iraqi site. its not our fault if they get snuffed.

[Darth Rotor]

Iran has more right to bomb Israel then Israel has to bomb Iran.
Israel has more capability.

I'd like you to please flesh out this comparative rights argument, parky, as tyr and others have asked.

How do you support that statement?

Given that each is a sovereign nation, and each considers the other a threat, for one reason or another, I'd say this is a classic example of equal rights here.

DR

[parky76]

I have proven the Pal. Mandate remains in effect and the Jewish settlements are legal.

Have you contacted the United Nations to let them know their Mandate for Palestine is still in effect? I am sure they would love to know about this.

[parky76]

Israel has more capability.

I'd like you to please flesh out this comparative rights argument, parky, as tyr and others have asked.



sorry, too boring. got to go to brunch in Park Slope.

[Darth Rotor]

sorry, too boring. got to go to brunch in Park Slope.
I will translate that into English:

"I can't support that statement, so I'll scurry away and do something else."

DR

[Marc39]

I will translate that into English:

"I can't support that statement, so I'll scurry away and do something else."

DR

Haha.

[parky76]

I will translate that into English:

"I can't support that statement, so I'll scurry away and do something else."

DR

no, i actually do have to leave by 10:15 and i am not dressed yet.

try to get out of the house today, huh? or at least off JREF.

[Marc39]

no, i actually do have to leave by 10:15 and i am not dressed yet.

try to get out of the house today, huh? or at least off JREF.

Thanks for narrating your life. Fascinating. Be sure to clean your room!

[parky76]

Thanks for narrating your life. Fascinating. Be sure to clean your room!

don't have to. hot chick did that for me. and she did the dishes too. all i had to do for her, was, well....you know.

;)

[Marc39]

don't have to. hot chick did that for me. and she did the dishes too. all i had to do for her, was, well....you know.

;)

LOL. No law against dreaming.

[Marc39]

Tangled up in your own rhetoric, are you?

There is no settlement without settlers. Getting rid of the settlements will bring with it the loss of settlers.

Or do you intend to buy them out?

DR

The issue is "settled"

[Skeptic]

I do wish these folks would make up their mind. Either Israel is an evil superpower threathening poor innocent Iran, the Palestinians, the world, etc. or it is a pathetic little country whose leaders are hysterical due to its imminent, unavoidable collapse. It can hardly be both.

[Brainster]

There's a twisted little part of me that wishes that Iran would get the bomb and nuke Israel so that Parky and Oliver would shut up. Unfortunately, we can already see what Parky's response would be: The Israelis brought it on themselves.

[Quad4_72]

Edited to remove personal remarks.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

[Darth Rotor]

The issue is "settled"

No, it isn't. There are some people who are actively working against this settlement ... or should I say, those settlements.

I don't think the matter is resolved yet.

Time will tell.
The Israelis brought it on themselves
In a roundabout way, Israel's Zionists founders did just that. The woo belief that they could create, untroubled, their old homeland seems to have led to a load of Jews, and others in Israel, being neatly packaged for death by WMD. The woo seemed to involve believing that bringing this new, up dated and more improved version of old Israel to the region would be met with flowers and acceptance of an upgraded/improved society.

Oh, wait, was that Iraq I was thinking about? ;)

DR

[Skeptic]

(Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......)

There's something to what you say, Darth Rotor, and I understand you are in no way trying to excuse Ahmadenijad's genocidal intentions, but I would be more impressed with the "explanation" that "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Europe, your home -- get out of Palestine!" if my own grandparents, to name some people I presonally know, didn't hear from the very same type of people, "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Palestine, your home -- get out of Europe!"

If Israel is destroyed tomorrow, the same folks who now hate the "Zionist in occupied Palestine" will simply shift their hatered to the "parasitical Jews in Europe" (or wherever -- depending how and where any remain alive). Eventually, the Jews, will be hounded so badly again that they will, in desperation, come back to Palestine again (that story has a familiar ring, doesn't it?) -- and the whole "Jews, get out of Palestine!" story will start over again.

So why bother? We might as well keep the Jews where they are and save on the moving, considering they'll be hated no matter where they are.

P.S.

To avoid any possible misunderstanding: I am most certainly NOT saying you hate Jews for this reason, only that you think that other people hate Jews for this reason. I claim that's not the real reason -- it's only the excuse du jour.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You know, settlers live in settlements.

The hypocrisy!

You know that innocent Palestinians live in Gaza yet that never stopped you supporting Israel's racist slaughter in Gaza over Christmas.



But back to the point. You believe Iran has every reason to attack Israel for the sole reason that Israel has nukes? Wouldn't that hold true for every single country in the region (Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc)?

Iran has just as much reason and right to preemptively attack Israel than Israel has to preemptively attack Iran

[Darth Rotor]

There's something to what you say, Darth Rotor, and I understand you are in no way trying to excuse Ahmadenijad's genocidal intentions, but I would be more impressed with the "explanation" that "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Europe, your home -- get out of Palestine!" if my own grandparents, to name some people I presonally know, didn't hear from the very same type of people, "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Palestine, your home -- get out of Europe!"
Yes, love for Jews is breaking out the world over -- oh wait, maybe not -- but maybe there's a way out of this for "the Jew" after all:

Dale Carnegie Training! (http://www.dalecarnegie.com/)

How to Win Friends and Influence People! I hear it does wonders! :D Maybe the Israeli government, and all the rabbis in the world can be convinced to sign up their people for these courses. What to do with the more Atheist Jews is beyond my imagination, for the nonce.
If Israel is destroyed tomorrow, the same folks who now hate the "Zionist in occupied Palestine" will simply shift their hatered to the "parasitical Jews in Europe" (or wherever -- depending how and where any remain alive).
Maybe, but I am of the opinion that in America, the Jews have found just the sort of melting pot that they found in Spain during the blossoming of Toledo and Granada: a place to fit in quite nicely.

And I could be dead wrong about that.
Eventually, the Jews, will be hounded so badly again that they will, in desperation, come back to Palestine again (that story has a familiar ring, doesn't it?) -- and the whole "Jews, get out of Palestine!" story will start over again.
There is no end to history, so Fukayama is once again just plain wrong.
So why bother? We might as well keep the Jews where they are and save on the moving, considering they'll be hated no matter where they are.
Of course! Here is a green angle. Moving the Jews (For Example to Madagascar or Siberia) would add unnecessarilly to the carbon emissions, and thus further imperil the global climate.
am most certainly NOT saying you hate Jews for this reason
I don't in any general sense hate Jews at all. I have met a few folks who I intensely dislike, who by coincidence happen to be Jews, but since the vast bulk of my experience has been neutral or positive, what's to hate?

Furthermore, my own visits to Israel, albeit over twenty years ago, were intensely positive. What a great port call Haifa was!

DR

[Tin Foil Timothy]

(Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......)

There's something to what you say, Darth Rotor, and I understand you are in no way trying to excuse Ahmadenijad's genocidal intentions, but I would be more impressed with the "explanation" that "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Europe, your home -- get out of Palestine!" if my own grandparents, to name some people I presonally know, didn't hear from the very same type of people, "Jew, we hate you because you are not in Palestine, your home -- get out of Europe!"

If Israel is destroyed tomorrow, the same folks who now hate the "Zionist in occupied Palestine" will simply shift their hatered to the "parasitical Jews in Europe" (or wherever -- depending how and where any remain alive). Eventually, the Jews, will be hounded so badly again that they will, in desperation, come back to Palestine again (that story has a familiar ring, doesn't it?) -- and the whole "Jews, get out of Palestine!" story will start over again.

So why bother? We might as well keep the Jews where they are and save on the moving, considering they'll be hated no matter where they are.

P.S.

To avoid any possible misunderstanding: I am most certainly NOT saying you hate Jews for this reason, only that you think that other people hate Jews for this reason. I claim that's not the real reason -- it's only the excuse du jour.

Wow Skeptic. That's EIGHT TIMES! Back on form I see. In a thread about Israel and Iran.

Oh and btw where are Ahmadinejad's genocidal intentions? From what I have seen he wants the Zionist entity out of Jerusalam, but I haven't heard him say he wants genocide of the Jews.

From his speech at Columbia university (http://ahmadinejadspeech.blogspot.com/) he said the following:

PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: We love all nations. We are friends with the Jewish people. There are many Jews in Iran living peacefully with security.

Why isn't he killing the Jews who live in Iran then?


Because the nonsense about Ahmadinejad wanting to 'wipe Israel off the map' is nothing more than lying Zionist Propaganda

[Marc39]

The hypocrisy!

You know that innocent Palestinians live in Gaza yet that never stopped you supporting Israel's racist slaughter in Gaza over Christmas.

Reality check for ya: The "government" of Gaza started a war with Israel. Israel was entitled to retaliate. Israel has a better army. Gazans got killed. The war ended. Israel won. Next?

Iran has just as much reason and right to preemptively attack Israel than Israel has to preemptively attack Iran

No, they don't. Iran is the belligerent, not Israel. Next?

[Pardalis]

You know that innocent Palestinians live in Gaza yet that never stopped you supporting Israel's racist slaughter in Gaza over Christmas.

From what I have seen he wants the Zionist entity out of Jerusalam

Israel wanted the Hamas "entity" out of Gaza, what's the difference?

[Marc39]

Oh and btw where are Ahmadinejad's genocidal intentions? From what I have seen he wants the Zionist entity out of Jerusalam, but I haven't heard him say he wants genocide of the Jews.

No, you're wrong. He has said unequivocally he wants Israel wiped off the map. And, don't parse his words.

Why isn't he killing the Jews who live in Iran then?

Because they aren't Israeli. Get it, now?

Because the nonsense about Ahmadinejad wanting to 'wipe Israel off the map' is nothing more than lying Zionist Propaganda

He has said he wants Israel wiped off the map. Case closed.

[tyr_13]

PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: We love all nations. We are friends with the Jewish people. There are many Jews in Iran living peacefully with security.

Why isn't he killing the Jews who live in Iran then?


Because the nonsense about Ahmadinejad wanting to 'wipe Israel off the map' is nothing more than lying Zionist Propaganda

That from the same speech were he claimed that Iran didn't have gay people? Right...

[Marc39]

Have you contacted the United Nations to let them know their Mandate for Palestine is still in effect? I am sure they would love to know about this.

It's right there in their charter, Art. 80. I'm sure the the We Hate Israel contingent at the UN does not wish to acknowledge Art. 80, but, then, again, why would they?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/unchart.htm#art80

[webfusion]

HomeFront Command drills in Israel take into consideration the massive firepower that could be unleashed from Syria and Lebanon, and to a certain extent, Gaza.

The CNN article glosses over those aspects.

Israel expects to face tens of thousands of incoming rockets in any future war.
This drill is a prudent form of preparation.

By the way, Iranian long-range ballistic missiles have little chance of actually reaching their targets, with HETZ (Arrow) ABM deployed. The Iranians understand this fully, and would turn to their proxies in Gaza, Syria and Lebanon (and perhaps their 'mujahudeen' in the West Bank) to inflict the most possible damage across Israel ---- mass deaths of Jews which would bring many people across the MidEast into the streets distributing candy and sweets in celebration.

Apparently, parky76 has a dish of 'virtual sweets' prepared and ready to hand out here on JREF, should such a war break out.

[Marc39]

Israel HAS nuclear weapons today. Many of them. Israel is more of a threat to Iran.

I hope Iran acts pre-emptively to remove the Israeli threat.

You cannot possibly really need such an excruciating amount of elementary explanation. Or, do you? For the benefit of others, Israel has never posed an offensive nuclear threat to its neighbors. Iran does. Against Israel.

[Pardalis]

If they want to "wipe off the map" Israel, won't they inevitably wipe off Gaza and the West Bank in the process?

This is what makes me doubt Iran will attempt anything, at least not a missile strike.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

That from the same speech were he claimed that Iran didn't have gay people? Right...

Yup that's the one. Ahmadinejad is an idiot. We all know that Iran does have gay people of course.

Iran also has Jewish people but he didn't claim it has none.

you FAIL. never mind.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

If they want to "wipe off the map" Israel, won't they inevitably wipe off Gaza and the West Bank in the process?

This is what makes me doubt Iran will attempt anything, at least not a missile strike.

Who says Iran wants to "wipe Israel off the map" ?? That piece of terribel Zionist Propaganda was debunked years ago.

Are you an Ahmedinejad 'truther' ?

:dl:

[Marc39]

Who says Iran wants to "wipe Israel off the map" ?? That piece of terribel Zionist Propaganda was debunked years ago.

Are you an Ahmedinejad 'truther' ?

:dl:

He has said so. Nobody with any credibility denies it. Don't claim he was "misinterpreted"

[Pardalis]

Who says Iran wants to "wipe Israel off the map" ?? That piece of terribel Zionist Propaganda was debunked years ago.

Are you an Ahmedinejad 'truther' ?

:dl:

If you only cared to read and understand basic English, you would know that my post you reacted too agrees with your position that Iran will not attempt a strike against Israel.

Oh well.

[Skeptic]

There are two bitter jokes about this, DR, concerning Jewish DP (Displaced Persons) -- that is, holocaust survivors -- after WWII, who were asked by the clerk arranging his resettlement where they want to go.

One of them finds antisemitism in every country he is offered.

--What can I do? You're rejected every country on the globe!
--Do you have another globe?

The second DP is quite clear: he wants to resettle in Australia.

--But that's so far!
--From where?

[Marc39]

Yup that's the one. Ahmadinejad is an idiot. We all know that Iran does have gay people of course.

Iran also has Jewish people but he didn't claim it has none.

you FAIL. never mind.

Soon, he will be an ex-idiot, after the Israelis ge through with him and his screwball mullahs.

[Skeptic]

If they want to "wipe off the map" Israel, won't they inevitably wipe off Gaza and the West Bank in the process?

This is what makes me doubt Iran will attempt anything, at least not a missile strike.

I don't know if they will or will not do anything, but that certainly won't stop them. To the Shi'ite Persians who run Iran, the death of a few million Sunni Arabs if the Jews are killed are merely an added bonus.

In any case the drill had nothing to do with Iran, but rather with possible attacks from Syria, Lebanon, and Gaza.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

If you only cared to read and understand basic English, you would know that my post you reacted too agrees with your position that Iran will not attempt a strike against Israel.

Oh well.

I never said it didn't. If you only cared to read and understand basic English, you would know that. Oh well.

The wrecking of Gaza and the West Bank is not really the reason though is it? it's because maybe it simply doesn't want to wipe Israel off the map, but would rather get rid of the Zionist Movement by other means. In any case if Iran took a pot shot at Israel it knows it would have Israel's big tough son to contend with. The USA.

If it wasn't for the might of the US Israel wouldn't even be in existence today.

[Pardalis]

I never said it didn't. If you only cared to read and understand basic English, you would know that. Oh well.

The parrot routine, lovely. :rolleyes:

The wrecking of Gaza and the West Bank is not really the reason though is it? it's because maybe it simply doesn't want to wipe Israel off the map,

Actually, I think the close proximity of Palestinians in the region is the only thing preventing an attack.

but would rather get rid of the Zionist Movement by other means.

And what would those be?

If it wasn't for the might of the US Israel wouldn't even be in existence today.

Yes, and I believe it to be a good thing.

BTW, you've just contradicted yourself. You've just admitted that if the US wasn't there to protect Israel, Israel would indeed be wiped off the map.

[Marc39]

The wrecking of Gaza...

Not quite in the order of Dresden or Chechnya, now, is it?

and the West Bank

PLO chairman Abbas just stated Pals are living good, normal lives in Judea and Samaria, so, what wreckage?

...is not really the reason though is it? it's because maybe it simply doesn't want to wipe Israel off the map, but would rather get rid of the Zionist Movement by other means. In any case if Iran took a pot shot at Israel it knows it would have Israel's big tough son to contend with. The USA.

Israel and the Zionist movement are inextricably linked. Saying he wants to wipe out Zionism is, essentially, threatening to wipe out Israel. It would be tantamount to some other leader saying he just wants to wipe out Islam, but, not wipe out Islamic countries. That you are even parsing his words says much about you.

If it wasn't for the might of the US Israel wouldn't even be in existence today.

You're a regular Henry Kissinger.

[Skeptic]

Again, I wish some folks here would make up their mind. EITHER Israel is a puny little US colony on the point of collapse, OR it is an all-powerful mega-power that bullies the entire middle east and, through "Inernational Zionism", more or less controls the world. It can hardly be both.

While you're at it, decide what the Arabs are, too, will you? EITHER they are on the point of destroying the Zionist entity and justly wiping it off the map for all its evil crimes, OR they are peace-loving innocents wrongly prosecuted by the evil Zionists. They can hardly be both.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

The parrot routine, lovely. :rolleyes:


nah nah it's restin'


BTW, you've just contradicted yourself. You've just admitted that if the US wasn't there to protect Israel, Israel would indeed be wiped off the map.

I haven't contradicted myself at all. Without the 'protection' Israel would indeed be wiped off the map. Not by Iran but by the close Arabic neighbors. I've never claimed it wouldn't. But that doesn't excuse Israel's raciost atrocities just because it can get away with it because of US protection

[Pardalis]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. Without the 'protection' Israel would indeed be wiped off the map. Not by Iran but by the close Arabic neighbors.

So you agree the US protection is a good thing?

[Cobalt]

Again, I wish some folks here would make up their mind. EITHER Israel is a puny little US colony on the point of collapse, OR it is an all-powerful mega-power that bullies the entire middle east and, through "Inernational Zionism", more or less controls the world. It can hardly be both.

While you're at it, decide what the Arabs are, too, will you? EITHER they are on the point of destroying the Zionist entity and justly wiping it off the map for all its evil crimes, OR they are peace-loving innocents wrongly prosecuted by the evil Zionists. They can hardly be both.

Oh, but it can in Imagination Land.

[Marc39]

nah nah it's restin'



I haven't contradicted myself at all. Without the 'protection' Israel would indeed be wiped off the map. Not by Iran but by the close Arabic neighbors. I've never claimed it wouldn't. But that doesn't excuse Israel's raciost atrocities just because it can get away with it because of US protection

What you are acknowledging, unwittingly, is that without US support, the Arabs and Muslims would destroy Israel and annihilate every last Jew. Doesn't say much for them, does it?

Now, as for alleged racist atrocities in Israel, why are you dragging your feet in contacting Israel's Attorney General to report such atrocities? There are strict laws against such atrocities. Here is the name of the AG...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4758269&postcount=90

[Tin Foil Timothy]

So you agree the US protection is a good thing?

Only for innocent Israelis. Those who perpetrate racist atrocities against the Palestinians ( who don't have the luxury of such protection ) don't deserve any protection.

[Pardalis]

So it's a "yes" then.

[Marc39]

Only for innocent Israelis. Those who perpetrate racist atrocities against the Palestinians ( who don't have the luxury of such protection ) don't deserve any protection.

Please contact Israel's Attorney General about such atrocities, which are punishable by law. Let us know how the investigatons proceed...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4758269&postcount=90

[tyr_13]

Yup that's the one. Ahmadinejad is an idiot. We all know that Iran does have gay people of course.

Iran also has Jewish people but he didn't claim it has none.



So Iran wishes peace with all other countries too? Because that was kind of the point I was addressing. However, it doesn't matter if Ahmadinejad said there were Jewish people, or said in that speech that he doesn't want to destroy Israel, because he's an idiot. But that is the evidence you relied on. You could have just said that there were Jews in Iran, but you decided to bring his tour into it.


you FAIL. never mind.

Your maturity on this matter is striking. Really. But still, look at your avatar, I should have known better.

[parky76]

ugg

[Marc39]

at least I don't make believe that I have a wife and children, and a 16 year old nephew.

Nor, should you.

[parky76]

LOL. No law against dreaming.

hey, if you can dream, then so can I.

:)

off to go jogging now.

[Marc39]

hey, if you can dream, then so can I.

:)

off to go jogging now.

As long as you have finished your homework!

[Marc39]

hey, if you can dream, then so can I.

:)

off to go jogging now.

Your's is unlikely to be realized.

[mortimer]

The hypocrisy!

You know that innocent Palestinians live in Gaza yet that never stopped you supporting Israel's racist slaughter in Gaza over Christmas.
Although I did support Operation Cast Lead because the Palestinians continued to lob missiles at innocent Israeli citizens, I never expressed a wish for Palestinian homes to be destroyed and innocent Palestinians to be killed, as Parky has expressed in regards to Jewish settlers and their homes. So where exactly is the hypocrisy?
Iran has just as much reason and right to preemptively attack Israel than Israel has to preemptively attack Iran
No, you are incorrect.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Your maturity on this matter is striking. Really. But still, look at your avatar, I should have known better.

Oh Dear. Double FAIL.

You make sarcastic snide comments about someone's maturity because you were called out? Rather ironic don't ya think? <sigh>

[parky76]

As long as you have finished your homework!

I'll tell "Mrs. Rubinstein", you said hi.

:p

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Although I did support Operation Cast Lead because the Palestinians continued to lob missiles at innocent Israeli citizens, I never expressed a wish for Palestinian homes to be destroyed and innocent Palestinians to be killed, as Parky has expressed in regards to Jewish settlers and their homes. So where exactly is the hypocrisy?

No, you are incorrect.

No I'm not incorrect Iran has as much right as Israel to launch a preemptive strike, although I hope neither side does so as innocent people will be killed again.

And as to your first points if you supported Cast Lead then you support the racist slaughter of Innocent Palestinians because that's exactly what Cast Lead was all about.

Although I understand why they do it, I do not support the operations of Hamas that fire rockets at innocent Israelis.

[parky76]

until there is concrete proof that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, Israel is not justified in attacking pre-emptively.

Nasty rhetoric and a nuclear energy program is not enough.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

As long as you have finished your homework! I'll tell "Mrs. Rubinstein", you said hi.

:p

I can see putting him on ignore really was a good idea.

[parky76]

I can see putting him on ignore really was a good idea.

I am having great trouble deciding who is the poster..and who is the sockpuppet.

[tyr_13]

Oh Dear. Double FAIL.

You make sarcastic snide comments about someone's maturity because you were called out? Rather ironic don't ya think? <sigh>

Called out on what? Pointing out that because Ahmadinejad said it doesn't mean squat? Pointing out that Iran might not be all into peace, just like most every country in the region (or on Earth for that matter)?

Proclaim fail all you want, it doesn't make it so. Fail is that you don't know what the words 'sarcastic' and 'ironic' mean.

Your belligerent argument techniques, and childish 'points scoring' undermine your position. Consider a more even handed approach.

[mortimer]

No I'm not incorrect Iran has as much right as Israel to launch a preemptive strike
Yes, you are. Iran supports the Palestinian terrorists, and is seeking a nuclear weapon despite their signage of the NPT.
although I hope neither side does so as innocent people will be killed again.
I agree.
And as to your first points if you supported Cast Lead then you support the racist slaughter of Innocent Palestinians because that's exactly what Cast Lead was all about.
Incorrect.
Although I understand why they do it, I do not support the operations of Hamas that fire rockets at innocent Israelis.
Although I understand why it happened, I do not support the killing of innocent Palestinians by the IDF.

[Marc39]

until there is concrete proof that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, Israel is not justified in attacking pre-emptively.

Nasty rhetoric and a nuclear energy program is not enough.

There is concrete proof. Read the intelligence reports.

[Marc39]

No I'm not incorrect Iran has as much right as Israel to launch a preemptive strike, although I hope neither side does so as innocent people will be killed again.

Wrong.

And as to your first points if you supported Cast Lead then you support the racist slaughter of Innocent Palestinians because that's exactly what Cast Lead was all about.

Cast Lead was all about internatinal law permitting a state to retaliate against acts of war and then proceeding to destroy all military operatives.

Although I understand why they do it, I do not support the operations of Hamas that fire rockets at innocent Israelis.

Evidently, you do not.

[parky76]

Cast Lead was all about internatinal law permitting a state to retaliate against acts of war and then proceeding to destroy all military operatives.


ah, so what is International Law? anything Israel says it is...right?

[Marc39]

ah, so what is International Law? anything Israel says it is...right?


Art. 51 of the UN Charter is a good start.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yes, you are. Iran supports the Palestinian terrorists, and is seeking a nuclear weapon despite their signage of the NPT.
No, I'm correct, Israel not only has nuclear weapons it continues it's hawkish and threatening attitude towards Iran.

Iran has as much right to mount a preemptive strike against Israel as vice versa



Incorrect.

Cast Lead was about the mass slaughter of Palestinians.


Although I understand why it happened, I do not support the killing of innocent Palestinians by the IDF.

Then you should not support Cast Lead

[Marc39]

No, I'm correct, Israel not only has nuclear weapons it continues it's hawkish and threatening attitude towards Iran.

No, you are patently incorrect. Israel has never once sabre-rattled with nuclear weaponry nor has an Israeli leader even spoken about Israel's nuclear capabilities. Iran is obviously conducting itself in a belligerent manner with Israel. Anyone who supports a fascist, repressive state over a democratic state that honors human rights has an inoperative moral compass.

Iran has as much right to mount a preemptive strike against Israel as vice versa

Wrong. Iran is the belligerent. Israel is in a defensible position to engage Iran in a preemptive strike. Not the other way around.

Cast Lead was about the mass slaughter of Palestinians.

Wrong. Cast Lead was about Israel responding to repeated acts of war initiated by the Palestinian government.

Then you should not support Cast Lead

Then you ought to understand the issues.

[mortimer]

No, I'm correct, Israel not only has nuclear weapons it continues it's hawkish and threatening attitude towards Iran.
Hawkish and threatening? Are they supporting terrorism within Iran as Iran is inside Israel? Indeed, Israel has nukes. They never promised NOT to have nukes. Iran, on the other hand, DID promise not to have nukes, yet they are developing them despite their promise.
Cast Lead was about the mass slaughter of Palestinians.
I suppose you have evidence of this? Like, a leaked internal document telling the soldiers to kill innocent Palestinians? Anything?

ETA: If the point of Cast Lead was to slaughter innocent civilians, they did a pretty crappy job of doing so. Less than 1,000 civilians killed? Surely they would have killed many more if that were their purpose.

[Oliver]

Hawkish and threatening? Are they supporting terrorism within Iran as Iran is inside Israel? Indeed, Israel has nukes. They never promised NOT to have nukes. Iran, on the other hand, DID promise not to have nukes, yet they are developing them despite their promise.


Well, to be rational here: If 2 influental neighbors would threaten me and I would know that they own guns and tried to bring my other family members against me, I would strongly consider to get "a gun" for my protection as well.

Also: "Enriching uranium" isn't "having nukes". It's more like: "So I bought some bullets - and if my neighbors don't stop threatening me, I might as well get a Gun for my Bullets".

What Israel and the US/West does, seems to be a Self-fulfilling prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy).

[gumboot]

Oh my, the drama. Israel's government seem's to be pretty worried about evil Iran, aka: most aggressive, invading country ever:

CNN: Israel stages biggest-ever war drill (http://us.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/31/israel.drill/index.html) 41 min

In other, important news: Ghotbi's vision for Iran football
(http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=195773)

You would do well to do a bit more reading before you create these threads. The drill (which is an emergency response drill, not a war drill) is called Turning Point III. The clue is in that last bit of the name. This drill is nothing new at all. It's designed to ensure the civilian population and civil authorities are capable of responding quickly to rocket attacks.

When I was a child I lived in a earthquake prone area, so we used to have lots and lots of earthquake drills at school - more than we did fire drills. When actual earthquakes occurred we didn't panic, and instead did what we'd been trained to do, and no one was hurt.

Drilling to prepare for something that is a likely danger to you is smart and sensible. That's what Israel is doing.

Rocket attacks against Israel are fairly common (remember back to immediately before their invasion of Gaza?), and part of the reason these attacks kill so few people is because the Israelis conduct so many of these home front drills.

Smart.

[Marc39]

What Israel and the US/West does, seems to be a Self-fulfilling prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy).

What Iran is engaging in is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

[Oliver]

You would do well to do a bit more reading before you create these threads. The drill (which is an emergency response drill, not a war drill) is called Turning Point III. The clue is in that last bit of the name. This drill is nothing new at all. It's designed to ensure the civilian population and civil authorities are capable of responding quickly to rocket attacks.

When I was a child I lived in a earthquake prone area, so we used to have lots and lots of earthquake drills at school - more than we did fire drills. When actual earthquakes occurred we didn't panic, and instead did what we'd been trained to do, and no one was hurt.

Drilling to prepare for something that is a likely danger to you is smart and sensible. That's what Israel is doing.

Rocket attacks against Israel are fairly common (remember back to immediately before their invasion of Gaza?), and part of the reason these attacks kill so few people is because the Israelis conduct so many of these home front drills.

Smart.


I may have misinterpreted the drill as a precaution for Iran's revenge once Israel is attacking their nuclear facillities.

Concerning the antiquated rocket technology from Palestinians: The solution is peace due to the two state being finally comming into existence because it would moderate a lot of Palestinians and keep them busy to build up their own Palestinian future without aggressive foreign intervention.

Concerning Ahmadinejad: He isn't the portrayed irresponsible lunatic people often think he is due to "Scapegoat-Coverage":

SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH IRANIAN PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD
'We Are Neither Obstinate nor Gullible' (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,618559,00.html)

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke with SPIEGEL about what he expects from US President Barack Obama, why America's new Afghanistan strategy is wrong and why Iran should have a spot on the UN Security Council. more... (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,618559,00.html)

[Marc39]

Concerning the antiquated rocket technology from Palestinians: The solution is peace due to the two state being finally comming into existence because it would moderate a lot of Palestinians and keep them busy to build up their own Palestinian future without aggressive foreign intervention.

The Palestinian charters advocate a state of war with Israel and promote annihilation of Israel. Statements from Pal leaders indicate a continued animus toward Jews and an inability to live at peace with them. There is no demonstrable evidence of Palestinian violence against Jews being linked with an absence of statehood.

[mortimer]

Well, to be rational here: If 2 influental neighbors would threaten me and I would know that they own guns and tried to bring my other family members against me, I would strongly consider to get "a gun" for my protection as well.
Iran signed the NPT, Israel did not. If you had signed a legal contract with your neighbors saying that you would not buy a gun, the other signatories would have every right to sue you for breach of contract if you did buy a gun, and (possibly) have that gun removed from your possession, regardless of the fact that two of your neighbors didn't sign the contract and own guns.
Also: "Enriching uranium" isn't "having nukes". It's more like: "So I bought some bullets - and if my neighbors don't stop threatening me, I might as well get a Gun for my Bullets".
Why did you put "having nukes" in quotes? I didn't say that Iran "has nukes". I said they are developing them.
What Israel and the US/West does, seems to be a Self-fulfilling prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy).
How so?

[Oliver]

The Palestinian charters advocate a state of war with Israel and promote annihilation of Israel. Statements from Pal leaders indicate a continued animus toward Jews and an inability to live at peace with them. There is no demonstrable evidence of Palestinian violence against Jews being linked with an absence of statehood.


I suggest you may like to read opinion polls of Palestinians about their desire for a stabil self-governed state and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You may be surprised about the rather rational public opinion despite the fanatic views. So to me there is hope, but of course, Israel would have to be willing to make compromises as well - despite the radical Hamas being seen as the sole voice of Palestine.

Iran signed the NPT, Israel did not. If you had signed a legal contract with your neighbors saying that you would not buy a gun, the other signatories would have every right to sue you for breach of contract if you did buy a gun, and (possibly) have that gun removed from your possession, regardless of the fact that two of your neighbors didn't sign the contract and own guns.

Why did you put "having nukes" in quotes? I didn't say that Iran "has nukes". I said they are developing them.

How so?


We don't know if they are actually planning to get Nukes or if they are at a point which makes it unavoidable for Iran to protect itself against actual military threats of Israel. I still hope that Obama's politics may make Irans leadership rethink their former opposition to anything American/Israeli.

As Ahmadinejad said in the above interview:

SPIEGEL: The new US president, Barack Obama, directed a video address to the Iranian nation three weeks ago, during the Iranian New Year festival. Did you watch the speech? Ahmadinejad: Yes. Great things are happening in the United States. I believe that the Americans are in the process of initiating important developments.
SPIEGEL: How did you feel about the speech?
Ahmadinejad: Ambivalent. Some passages were new, while some repeated well-known positions. I thought it striking that Obama attached such high value to the Iranian civilization, our history and culture. It is also positive that he stresses mutual respect and honest interactions with one another as the basis of cooperation. In one segment of his speech, he says that a nation's standing in the world does not depend solely on weapons and military strength, which is precisely what we told the previous American administration. George W. Bush's big mistake was that he wanted to solve all problems militarily. The days are gone when a country can issue orders to other peoples. Today, mankind needs culture, ideas and logic.
SPIEGEL: What does that mean?
Ahmadinejad: We feel that Obama must now follow his words with actions.

Full source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,618559,00.html



As for putting "having nukes" into quotation-marks, it was meant for better reading, not to ridicule the words itself.

And as for self-fulfilling-prophecy:

If you tell me you have a gun and always rant about my dangerous nature and my intend to kill you and your family, at one point in time I might start to think that you are crazy and I should get a gun as well to protect me.

Part of Ahamadinejad's platform is to critizise Israel's politics concerning the Palestinians, and from a rather neutral point of view, he has a point since the whole pile of crap is going on for 60 years now and the Palestinian POV never really got as much attention as Israel's struggle. So it's no lunatic stance to think that both sides are treated unfair. Yet it is clear that the Palestinian Issue doesn't get as much attention as the Israeli plans and mistreatment, and that despite the fact that Israel is a military superpower having strong foreign support usually outvoting the Palestinian side of the issue.

So I would argue that if you really support Israel, you may stick to peace no matter if there is a small, lousy-equipped opposition or not. And it might mean that you don't support any Israeli military intervention in palestinian urban areas that complicates the whole issue due to [in contrast] massive civilian and innocent deaths - because it's a lose-lose situation for Israel in any case.

[mortimer]

If you tell me you have a gun and always rant about my dangerous nature and my intend to kill you and your family, at one point in time I might start to think that you are crazy and I should get a gun as well to protect me.
So a country's well within their rights to disregard promises they have made to the rest of the world, when it suits their purposes? So explain to me why Israel should be bound by anything the UN says?

[Pardalis]

So I would argue that if you really support Israel, you may stick to peace no matter if there is a small, lousy-equipped opposition or not. And it might mean that you don't support any Israeli military intervention in palestinian urban areas that complicates the whole issue due to [in contrast] massive civilian and innocent deaths - because it's a lose-lose situation for Israel in any case.

Governments aren't supposed to just let their population get fired at, even by "lousy" weaponry.

It's something called moral responsibility, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

[Marc39]

I suggest you may like to read opinion polls of Palestinians about their desire for a stabil self-governed state and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You may be surprised about the rather rational public opinion despite the fanatic views. So to me there is hope, but of course, Israel would have to be willing to make compromises as well - despite the radical Hamas being seen as the sole voice of Palestine.

A recent survey among Israeli Arabs says a wide margin of them deny the Holocaust and do not support the right of Israel to exist. Unless you have evidence to contrary sentiments among Pals elsewhre, I have no reason to believe Pals are not in accord with Arabs in Israel.

We don't know if they are actually planning to get Nukes or if they are at a point which makes it unavoidable for Iran to protect itself against actual military threats of Israel. I still hope that Obama's politics may make Irans leadership rethink their former opposition to anything American/Israeli.

You are incorrect. We do know Iran has been developing nuclear capabilities because Pakistani nuclear scientist A.Q. Khan has confessed to selling nuclear technology to Iran. Every reliable intelligence agency verifies Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons. It is patently absurd to suggest Iran is arming itself in a defensive posture against Israel, which has never threatened Iran until Iran began acting in a belligerent manner with Israel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/khan-iran.htm

As Ahmadinejad said in the above interview:
As for putting "having nukes" into quotation-marks, it was meant for better reading, not to ridicule the words itself.

And as for self-fulfilling-prophecy:

If you tell me you have a gun and always rant about my dangerous nature and my intend to kill you and your family, at one point in time I might start to think that you are crazy and I should get a gun as well to protect me.

Part of Ahamadinejad's platform is to critizise Israel's politics concerning the Palestinians, and from a rather neutral point of view, he has a point since the whole pile of crap is going on for 60 years now and the Palestinian POV never really got as much attention as Israel's struggle. So it's no lunatic stance to think that both sides are treated unfair. Yet it is clear that the Palestinian Issue doesn't get as much attention as the Israeli plans and mistreatment, and that despite the fact that Israel is a military superpower having strong foreign support usually outvoting the Palestinian side of the issue.

So I would argue that if you really support Israel, you may stick to peace no matter if there is a small, lousy-equipped opposition or not. And it might mean that you don't support any Israeli military intervention in palestinian urban areas that complicates the whole issue due to [in contrast] massive civilian and innocent deaths - because it's a lose-lose situation for Israel in any case.

Ridiculous.

[Marc39]

Part of Ahamadinejad's platform is to critizise Israel's politics concerning the Palestinians, and from a rather neutral point of view, he has a point since the whole pile of crap is going on for 60 years now and the Palestinian POV never really got as much attention as Israel's struggle.

He is in no moral position to criticize "Israel's policies concerning the Palestinians" when Iran has "policies" in place to oppress and persecute their Baha'i population. Iran is complicit in the misery of the Palestinians as Iran, along with the entire Arab League, has steadfastly refused to allow Pal refugees repatriation to Iran. Since World War II, 150 million refugees have repatriated, but, the Pal refugees are the only group that has, by Arab and Iranian calculation, been forced to live decrepid lives for over half a century.

Yet it is clear that the Palestinian Issue doesn't get as much attention as the Israeli plans and mistreatment, and that despite the fact that Israel is a military superpower having strong foreign support usually outvoting the Palestinian side of the issue.

Palestinians are mistreated more by their own Arab brethren than by Israel, infinitely so.

So I would argue that if you really support Israel, you may stick to peace no matter if there is a small, lousy-equipped opposition or not. And it might mean that you don't support any Israeli military intervention in palestinian urban areas that complicates the whole issue due to [in contrast] massive civilian and innocent deaths - because it's a lose-lose situation for Israel in any case.

Israel "intervenes" into Palestinian urban areas when Pal-elected governments provoke conflicts with Israel, which Israel is obligated to respond to.

[Oliver]

Governments aren't supposed to just let their population get fired at, even by "lousy" weaponry.

It's something called moral responsibility, but you wouldn't know anything about that.


Well, what's the moral highground in ignoring the Palestinian POV up to the point where they start to fire antiquated/unguided Rocket's at you then? :rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

It's not a matter of moral highground, governments have the responsibility to protect their citizens. Period.

As expected, the point flew right past your head.

[Skeptic]

it might mean that you don't support any Israeli military intervention in palestinian urban areas that complicates the whole issue due to [in contrast] massive civilian and innocent deaths - because it's a lose-lose situation for Israel in any case.

Not really a loss-loss situation.

Israel had the choice of doing nothing and continue to have its civlians killed (a real loss) or fighting back and having the usual gang of idiots whine about its nonexistent "war crimes" (a fake "loss").

A rather clear choice, if you ask me: the lives and safety of your citizens... or the anger of some whiners who never liked Israel anyway. Ah well, Israel will just have to get along without these folks' sympathy. But why it is a "loss" that anyone should give a rat's behind about is beyond me.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

It's not a matter of moral highground, governments have the responsibility to protect their citizens. Period.

As expected, the point flew right past your head.

No it's a moral highground. Israel expects to be able to persecute the Palestinians, mount operations of mass slaughter against them, slowly erode what land they have left by building settlements, impement measure of apartheid in their occupied lands, etc,etc, and then get all high and haughty when some of the Palestinians fight back.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Governments aren't supposed to just let their population get fired at, even by "lousy" weaponry.

Governments aren't supposed to intimidate 750,000 off their lands by violent and other means and subsequently efstroy over 400 of their villages in order to create a new country. Governments are not supposed to mount a 61 year campaign of racist persecution against those who it sees as being in the way if it's expansionist agenda.


It's something called moral responsibility, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

Bit of a personal attack there wasn't it?

Anyone who supports the racist behavior of Israel knows nothing about good morals

[Pardalis]

Nothing in both your last two posts has anything to do with what I was saying to Oliver.

You've outdone yourself today.

[IDB87]

Governments aren't supposed to intimidate 750,000 off their lands by violent and other means and subsequently efstroy over 400 of their villages in order to create a new country. Governments are not supposed to mount a 61 year campaign of racist persecution against those who it sees as being in the way if it's expansionist agenda.

This is not justification for deliberatley attacking civilian populations.

Infact, there is no way to justify terrorism.

Keep trying though.

[dudalb]

Oliver's faith in the good will of the Iranian Government is sort of touching, like a five year old kid beleiving in Santa Clause, with about the same basis in reality.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Nothing in both your last two posts has anything to do with what I was saying to Oliver.

Actually they do. They've everything to do with it.

If Israel didn't act in the way it acts towards the Palestinians then it's highly unlikely that the rockets would continue to be lobbed at it.

On the other hand whatever the Palestinians do Israel's agenda of Expansionism will march on.



You've outdone yourself today.

You made yourself look really silly for making an untrue claim. Well done!! :D

[IDB87]

Actually they do. They've everything to do with it.

If Israel didn't act in the way it acts towards the Palestinians then it's highly unlikely that the rockets would continue to be lobbed at it.

Remember that question about Islamic Expansionism I was asking you about? It applies in this situation.

[Pardalis]

If Israel didn't act in the way it acts towards the Palestinians then it's highly unlikely that the rockets would continue to be lobbed at it.

Israel's very existence is the reason why Hamas exists, so whatever Israel did they would shoot rockets at them.

On the other hand whatever the Palestinians do Israel's agenda of Expansionism will march on.
And we're already way beyond the point I was making with Oliver, you've successfully changed the subject.

You made yourself look really silly for making an untrue claim. Well done!! :DWhat untrue claim? Can you give me the direct quote?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

What untrue claim? Can you give me the direct quote?

The untrue claim that my posts had nothing to do with your remarks to oliver :roll:

Because they obviously did

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Remember that question about Islamic Expansionism I was asking you about? It applies in this situation.

How is your research coming along?

[IDB87]

How is your research coming along?

Would you care to toss around the idea that Hamas may be a group that embodies the Islamic Expansionism which you don't deny exists?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Would you care to toss around the idea that Hamas may be a group that embodies the Islamic Expansionism which you don't deny exists?

Hamas don't seem to have a core pursuit of Islamic Expansionism. They seem to be fighting against the Israeli racist persecution of the Palestinians. You should be looking at the Islamists like Ayman Zawahiri who followed Qutb and wanted to cleanse Islamic nations like Egypt and Algeria of 'western influence' and/or the insurgence of Islamists in Somalia for that kind of thing.

I know that the Zionist Apologists will attempt any kind of diversion away from Israel's behavior but using Islamic Expansionism is a really lame method.

Look, Israel created itself in Palestine with the support and backing ( Mainly ) of the UK and US and since has embarked upon a long term agenda of expansionism. The Palestinians who were 'displaced' ( to put it mildly ) have amongst them people who are fighting back against Israel's imposition and stealing of land. One of these groups is Hamas.

The fact that Islamic, Christian and Judaism fundamentalists would ideally like the whole world to be respectively Islamic, Christian or Juda'ian ( for want of a better word ) is neither here nor there, Hamas is fighting against Israeli oppression and persecution.

It's ridiculous to try and pin the troubles on Islamic Expansionism when the Zionist Movement/Israel started the troubles in the first place.

If you are really unbiased against the issues in Palestine then you should admit the truth of the matter which is that the creation of Israel, regardless of any mythological decrees of the promised land and other fairy tale nonsense, was done without any regard to the Arab people living in Palestine and as such any forcible creation of a racist state was bound to cause peopel to fight back against it.

[Skeptic]

Oliver's faith in the good will of the Iranian Government is sort of touching, like a five year old kid beleiving in Santa Clause, with about the same basis in reality.

Less. A five-year-old who believes Santa lives in the north pole usually does not have access to constant information from live web cams showing nobody is there, while Oliver does have access to unlimited data showing what Iran's plans are, from Iran's leaders own mouths.

[webfusion]

Air-raid sirens have been wailing across Israel today.

If you have ever experienced a real air raid (as I have, along with many Israelis), this is the most chilling, most terrifying sound you can imagine.

[Skeptic]

It's the 30-second wait between the siren's wail and hearing the "boom" of the explosions that gets to you, as you well know, Webfusion.

[IDB87]

Hamas don't seem to have a core pursuit of Islamic Expansionism.

Despite their origins?

They seem to be fighting against the Israeli racist persecution of the Palestinians.

While oppressing and persecuting their kin.

I know that the Zionist Apologists will attempt any kind of diversion away from Israel's behavior but using Islamic Expansionism is a really lame method.

Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (the latter not being a direct wing of Fatah) all have Islamic Expansionism at the heart of their goals - are you saying these groups do not effect Isarel's behavior?

Look, Israel created itself in Palestine with the support and backing ( Mainly ) of the UK and US

Relevance?

and since has embarked upon a long term agenda of expansionism.

All the while giving back land, surrendering annexations, making peace deals, etc.

The Palestinians who were 'displaced' ( to put it mildly ) have amongst them people who are fighting back against Israel's imposition and stealing of land. One of these groups is Hamas.

And the most notorious of those groups are Islamic in nature, especially Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Hamas is fighting against Israeli oppression and persecution.

Hamas is seeking to reestablish the Calpihate, which had at its time all of the Levant under its' control.

It's ridiculous to try and pin the troubles on Islamic Expansionism when the Zionist Movement/Israel started the troubles in the first place.

To say the Zionist Movement started the troubles in the first place is a -tad- facetious.

[Skeptic]

Hamas don't seem to have a core pursuit of Islamic Expansionism.

The sun doesn't seem to be hot.

[Skeptic]

To say the Zionist Movement started the troubles in the first place is a -tad- facetious.

They did. They were Jews breathing air, weren't they? Not allowed.

Just ask the Mufti of the Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the father of Palestinian patriotism -- and the man who urged Hitler and Himmler weren't killing the Jews off fast enough, fearing some might survive to reach Palestine.

One would think it's impossible to be more antisemitic than Hitler and Himmler, but somehow I'm not surprised that, if anybody could, it was a Palestinian leader.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

To say the Zionist Movement started the troubles in the first place is a -tad- facetious.

Actually it's true. Creating a country for open race of people only, or at least where one race of people is treated with superiority to others on land already inhabited by a mixture of groups was always going to create trouble.

Even you should be able to compute that one.

[IDB87]

Actually it's true. Creating a country for open race of people only, or at least where one race of people is treated with superiority to others on land already inhabited by a mixture of groups was always going to create trouble.

Even you should be able to compute that one.

And the rest of my post?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

To say the Zionist Movement started the troubles in the first place is a -tad- facetious. They did. They were Jews breathing air, weren't they? Not allowed.

Just ask the Mufti of the Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the father of Palestinian patriotism -- and the man who urged Hitler and Himmler weren't killing the Jews off fast enough, fearing some might survive to reach Palestine.

One would think it's impossible to be more antisemitic than Hitler and Himmler, but somehow I'm not surprised that, if anybody could, it was a Palestinian leader.

Oh dear, the forum's resident 'lets turn it into a racist issue' has popped up again.


You'd think that the Zionist Apologsts would learn from their mistakes. The old method of stifling criticism of Israel's racist behavior by turning it into a 'Jewish' Issue so they can shout 'Anti-Semite!' was debunked and discredited years ago. Yet like a few old soldiers still fighting the Vietnam war cut off in the jungle unaware it finished decades ago a few stragglers of the Zionist Old Guard still plod on.

:dl:

[parky76]

The old method of stifling criticism of Israel's racist behavior by turning it into a 'Jewish' Issue

Most Jews are Zionists. Israel is a Jewish issue.

But that doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is always anti-Semitic.

[IDB87]

Oh dear, the forum's resident 'lets turn it into a racist issue' has popped up again.


You'd think that the Zionist Apologsts would learn from their mistakes. The old method of stifling criticism of Israel's racist behavior by turning it into a 'Jewish' Issue so they can shout 'Anti-Semite!' was debunked and discredited years ago. Yet like a few old soldiers still fighting the Vietnam war cut off in the jungle unaware it finished decades ago a few stragglers of the Zionist Old Guard still plod on.

:dl:

Are you saying it's impossible for certain groups/people to be anti-Semitic? What does it take to be anti-Semitic?

[parky76]

Are you saying it's impossible for certain groups/people to be anti-Semitic? What does it take to be anti-Semitic?

A good friend of ours, who is currently suspended from JREF, said that it is "anti-Semitic" to accuse Israel of institutional racism.

The problem is that on one hand, we have anti-Semites who have infiltrated the anti-Zionist movement. Their presence and statements are highlighted by some pro-Zionists, in order to argue that ALL anti-Zionists hate Jews.

And on the other hand, we have Zionists who argue that any and all criticism of Israel and Zionism is rooted in hatred of Jews. The logical conclusion of this is that basically....Israel and Jews can do NO wrong.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

And the rest of my post?

The only thing worth commenting upon is the following:

All the while giving back land, surrendering annexations, making peace deals, etc.

And that's because it comes straight out of the Zionist Apologist Propaganda Fantasy Cookbook becuase of it's cherry picked absurdity!

If we present the full picture;

giving back land, surrendering annexations, making peace deals, treating non-Jews as second class citizens, persecuting the Palestinians, implementing apartheid, continued building of settlements, mass slaughter of Palestinians, war crimes, lies, religious extremists being allowed to hand out leaflets calling for slaughter of Palestinians to the IDF, bombing of Palestinians refugee camps, bulldozing 400 Palestinians villages and displacement of 750,000 Palestinians upon it's creation, Ghettoizing Palestinians behind 30 foot concrete walls, hundreds of checkpoints in the west bank, keeping the Gazans just this side of starving, banning all kinds of goods from entering Gaza, stealing Palestinians land, dropping 3,000,000 cluster-bomblets on southern Lebanon knowing damn well that innocent civilians will be the most at risk, occupation of Jerusalem, acts of terrorism, bombing installations in other countries, etc,etc

I'm sure we could extend the list at least 3 times as long.

Come on IDB87 you cannot expect to be taken seriously in the real world by making such a nonsense statement!!

[IDB87]

The only thing worth commenting upon is the following:

Why am I not surprised you choose to latch onto something to do with Israel, rather than stick to what we were discussing, or what I was discussing.

*edit*

Which was not so much Israel's wrong doings, but how they may be pushed into acting a certain way (reasonably so) because of the extremists they face. You can argue that Hamas is a reactionary group formed -because- of Israel's expansionism, but you'd be fighting an uphill battle in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Are you saying it's impossible for certain groups/people to be anti-Semitic? What does it take to be anti-Semitic?

Your first question is a form of strawman as you can see that I'm saying nothing of the sort.

You second question exposes a complete naivety. Racism is pretty simple. It's creating a negative prejudice against someone or a group of people purely because of their race/ethnicity.

Which means it's complete nonsense ....


A good friend of ours, who is currently suspended from JREF, said that it is "anti-Semitic" to accuse Israel of institutional racism.

.. to call an accusation that a country is racist as being racist.

And really the old nonsense that criticizing Israel for it's behavior as being racist is plain stupid.

Even today we see Skeptic and others still trying this one on this forum. <sigh>

[IDB87]

Your first question is a form of strawman as you can see that I'm saying nothing of the sort.

Not at all. Do you deny that Haj Amin el-Husseini acted in an anti-Semitic way? Do you deny that he may have inflamed the Palestinians (some at least) to behave in an anti-Semitic way? Do you beleive that this had no effect on the war in 1948?

You second question exposes a complete naivety. Racism is pretty simple. It's creating a negative prejudice against someone or a group of people purely because of their race/ethnicity.

So, there is a bench mark for anti-Semitism - what is it?





.. to call an accusation that a country is racist as being racist.

It's all a matter of context, sanctioned policies, present behaviors, etc. The U.N. has reported that the distribution of funds per student (Arab vs Israeli) is still not where they'd like it to be, but that it is improving. Is this the behavior of a racist country? When does a country shed their 'racist' ways? Is a baby step not worth noting?

And really the old nonsense that criticizing Israel for it's behavior as being racist is plain stupid.

Which is why I asked what it takes to be anti-Semitic.

Even today we see Skeptic and others still trying this one on this forum. <sigh>

Again, are you saying Haj Amin el-Husseini had -no- effect on the Palestinian population by peddling his anti-Semitic propaganda? This is what Skeptic was talking about, not about you complaining about Israel doing something.

[parky76]

Not at all. Do you deny that Haj Amin el-Husseini acted in an anti-Semitic way? Do you deny that he may have inflamed the Palestinians (some at least) to behave in an anti-Semitic way? Do you beleive that this had no effect on the war in 1948? .

are you suggesting that the Arab refusal to allow a Jewish State in Palestine was motivated not by concern for the native Palestinian-Arabs, but out of pure hatred of Jews?

[IDB87]

are you suggesting that the Arab refusal to allow a Jewish State in Palestine was motivated not by concern for the native Palestinian-Arabs, but out of pure hatred of Jews?

There are many factors that contributed to the War - not the least of which was the expulsion of Palestinians from Israel. I just want to know how much of an impact Haj Amin el-Husseini had on the whole thing. It's something that can't really be gauged.

I do feel the massacre of the Old Yishuv in Hebron is really quite disturbing, and shows how anti-Semitism may be inflamed based on false reports and outright lies.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Most Jews are Zionists. Israel is a Jewish issue.

But that doesn't mean that criticizing Israel is always anti-Semitic.

Don't you mean most Zionists are Jews? Are most Jews Zionists? I dunno, There's certainly many that are not.

Israel is a Jewish State for sure. Pretty stupid to argue against that.

anyway it's besides the point. The tedious charge by the Zionist Movement is that criticism of Israel's behavior is anti-semitic. This is nonsense.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Racism is pretty simple. It's creating a negative prejudice against someone or a group of people purely because of their race/ethnicity.
So, there is a bench mark for anti-Semitism - what is it?

You're starting to get ridiculous now. I've just told you what racism is, and you still ask what it is. :confused:

I'll repeat:

Racism is pretty simple. It's creating a negative prejudice against someone or a group of people purely because of their race/ethnicity.

You do understand the concept of prejudice don't you?

If Israel commits an act that is racist and someone criticizes it this is not prejudice it's 'postjudice' i.e A judgement has been made after the fact.

Prejudice is making a judgement before an act is committed.

But I don't really think you are that naive. I'm sure you can grasp the concept of prejudice v. 'postjudice' (yes I know 'postjudice' isn't an official word but it fits the debate )

Look, citing various Islamic individuals that have anti-semitic views doesn't absolve Israel of it's own behavior. This is just as silly as those who go on about the Mufti in answer to those who rightly proclaim the Palestinians aren't to blame for the Holocaust.

The behavior of the Palestinians isn't perfect, and I certainly believe that firing rockets at innocent Israelis is disgusting behavior but you people who have a bias towards Israel need to stop denying the bad behavior of Israel if you are going to be taken seriously.

Because despite the behavior of the various groups today the fact remains is that a territory called Palestine, which was the home to both Jews and Arabs was all of a sudden the subject of a claim by the Zionist Movement that it should be for Jews only and since then there has been displacement, war, slaughter, apartheid, etc,etc This is inherently racist

I have no problem with Jews having a homeland. What I have a problem with is creating homelands by stomping on other people. Especially in tyhe vilent and inhumane, racist way it's being implemented. If Palestine was previously uninhabited I would have no beef with setting up Israel in the slightest.

How would you feel if I decided that my homeland was the land where you lived? how would you feel if I suddenly declared that your land was mine and that you should either get the hell out of it or continue to stay as a 2nd class citizen?

Think about it from the Palestinians POV for a change!!!

Jews/Arabs, Israelis/Palestinians are all human beings with the same feelings and emotions and only racists would place each on differing levels.

Stop seeing the Palestinians by the benchmark of their extremist element. I don't judge all Israelis by the benchmark of the Extremist Zionist element who want to expand across the whole Levant and further.

[Pardalis]

Are "Zionists" human?

It looks to me you are using that word as a means to dehumanize the ones you don't like without referring to actual human beings.

BTW, did you read Zawahiri's latest rant (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/02/monitor/entry5057096.shtml) today? He used the word "Zionist" profusely. It's uncanny, for a second there I thought I was reading one of your posts.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Are "Zionists" human?

It looks to me you are using that word as a means to dehumanize the ones you don't like without referring to actual human beings.

I won't lower myself to even respond to such a disgusting argument.


BTW, did you read Zawahiri's latest rant (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/02/monitor/entry5057096.shtml) today? He used the word "Zionist" profusely. It's uncanny, for a second there I thought I was reading one of your posts.

The fact you align me with Zawahiri just proves the complete lack of vision and rationality in your agenda.

Zawahiri is a vicious deluded piece of crap who wants to peddle a nasty religious cult like Islam upon the world.

You should be completely ashamed of yourself for even having the cheek and restricted intellect to connect those of us who criticize the racist behavior of Israel and the ideology of Islamic extremists like Zawahiri.

People who can't see beyond a binary world of good v. evil are worthy of pity IMO. To automatically assume that those criticizing your side is on the other side is intellectually starved. This is the moronic "you are either with us or with the terrorists" kind of single brain cell thinking.

I'm highly offended by your insinuations pardalis. You might want to expand you limited horizons beyond the 2 zones of good v. evil and realise that the rest of us work in a base bigger than 2

[Pardalis]

Hey, I'm just a Zionist Apologist™.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

And now I've actually looked at your linked article ...


BTW, did you read Zawahiri's latest rant (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/02/monitor/entry5057096.shtml) today? He used the word "Zionist" profusely. It's uncanny, for a second there I thought I was reading one of your posts.

He used the word 'Zionist' profusely did he?

Really? Did you think no one would actually click on your link? I clicked on your link I typed 'zion' into Firefox's word search function so it would pick up Zionist, Zionism, etc

guess what? it proved the word Zionism was featured two times in the article.

Now I know what 'profusely' means and so do many others. I don't think any of us would claim with a straight face that profusely' would mean only twice.

You're argument and claims are a complete joke. Ands that's on top of the offensive patronization that the rest of us a locked into a binary world where there's only room for the good and the infidels.


If I were Pardalis I would seriously be considering my tenability to continue showing my face in this forum.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Hey, I'm just a Zionist Apologist™.

Can you clarify what your definition of 'profusely' means? Would you confirm that profusely means 'twice'? :D :D

:dl:

[Pardalis]

And you're not the one who aligned himself with a party that promotes the deportation of Jews from the region?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137629

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Come on pardalis stop diverting!! You're only making yourself look even worse. Tell us about 'profusely'. If you didn't understand the meaning of 'profusely' at the time of your claim then admit it. We'll understand.

Does 'profusely' mean 'twice' pardalis?

[Pardalis]

You've said it so many times, now it pops out of any text I read, especially when the word is used with the same intentions.

[Pardalis]

You might want to expand you limited horizons beyond the 2 zones of good v. evil and realise that the rest of us work in a base bigger than 2

BTW, I find this particularly ironic, you talking about other people having limited horizons, since I've never seen you post any comments or start any threads about anything else than Israel.

You world starts and ends with your hatred of the ones you call the "Zionists". That's 1 "zone".

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You've said it so many times, now it pops out of any text I read, especially when the word is used with the same intentions.

Oh dear. You continue along your path of self desctrcution regarding your credibility.

Come on Pardalis you claimed that Zawahiri used the word Zionist profusely in the article you linked to. can you explain to the forum how profusely means 'twice' ?

Zawahiri used the word twice. Here's the two examples:

1] "Zionist aggression on Gaza,"

Well whatever Zawahiri's faults he's correct on that one.

2] [obama is] an arriviste politician who serves the Zionist cause in order to get promoted to the highest levels of government."

No one get's to the POTUS unless they are approved by the Zionist body of AIPAC.

On these two points Zawahiri is right. does that mean I support his agenda? Absolutely not. Islam is a vile cult IMO, and Zawahiri's particularity extremist and fundamentalist version of it is the worst it can be.



Now are you going to tell us about the word profusely?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

BTW, I find this particularly ironic, you talking about other people having limited horizons, since I've never seen you post any comments or start any threads about anything else than Israel.

You world starts and ends with your hatred of the ones you call the "Zionists". That's 1 "zone".

More untruths. Not only do you cite untruths ( and saying two instances is profuse is a certain untruth without doubt ) about articles than anyone can link to and verify, you don't even read my posts. I regularly condemn cults like Islam and Christianity. Oh look! My previous post does just that.

Pardalis your reputation in this forum is shot.

[funk de fino]

Are "Zionists" human?

It looks to me you are using that word as a means to dehumanize the ones you don't like without referring to actual human beings.

BTW, did you read Zawahiri's latest rant (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/02/monitor/entry5057096.shtml) today? He used the word "Zionist" profusely. It's uncanny, for a second there I thought I was reading one of your posts.

The posts remind me of the Rwanda cockroaches MO.

[bigjelmapro]

Don't know what this drivel about 'war drills' is about.

This drill was headed by the home front command, 'Pikud ha-oref', which I'm a reservist of, and my sister is currently in. This isn't so much a 'war drill' as it is a country-wide exercise if Israel were to be attacked on a large scale. Search and rescue, 'chilutz ve-ha-tzala', which is a subset of the homefront command, and where my sister is involved in, was at the forefront. And as the name implies, it was about searching and rescuing and nothing along the lines of offensive action.

The IDF additionally worked with the Israeli Arab volunteers involved in the Arab majority areas up and around Haifa and Beersheva in these exercises.

So can we pull away from the regular pointless conspiracy bs of AIPAC and Zionism this, Zionism that, etc., and get back to the OP of the thread? I do think, however, that this is wishful thinking and the ongoing extreme leftist ploys with continue on as usual....

[Pardalis]

On these two points Zawahiri is right.

:rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

BTW, TFT, you've said all that needed to be said in this thread:

Without the [US] 'protection' Israel would indeed be wiped off the map. Not by Iran but by the close Arabic neighbors. I've never claimed it wouldn't

And yet you foam at the mouth against Zionism and the US protectorate, and have the same rhetoric as those who wish Israel's destruction.

Go figure. :boggled:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

BTW, TFT, you've said all that needed to be said in this thread:



And yet you foam at the mouth against Zionism and the US protectorate, and have the same rhetoric as those who wish Israel's destruction.

Go figure. :boggled:

Your argument is really really pathetic you know that don't you? You are the one who is trying to align me with the Islamists. You've been trying it ever since I joined this forum and you're foaming at the mouth because you consistently FAIL.

Unlike you Pardalis I'm not into this worldview of Good v. Evil. My viewpoint is one of sympathy for all innocent people whatever their race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender, etc, etc.

And again you FAIL. I do not have the same rhetoric as those who wish Israel's destruction. Why? Because I don't call for Israel's destruction. If anything I would call for Israel's reform. A reform that rids it of it's racist behavior against the Palestinians and other atrocities.

Now are you going to tell us why you described two instances of 'Zionist' 'profuse' ??

[Trojan_Jockey]

Your argument is really really pathetic you know that don't you? You are the one who is trying to align me with the Islamists. You've been trying it ever since I joined this forum and you're foaming at the mouth because you consistently FAIL.

Unlike you Pardalis I'm not into this worldview of Good v. Evil. My viewpoint is one of sympathy for all innocent people whatever their race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender, etc, etc.

And again you FAIL. I do not have the same rhetoric as those who wish Israel's destruction. Why? Because I don't call for Israel's destruction. If anything I would call for Israel's reform. A reform that rids it of it's racist behavior against the Palestinians and other atrocities.

Now are you going to tell us why you described two instances of 'Zionist' 'profuse' ??

You constantly align yourself with the Islamists.

Consider this section from the Hamas Charter~~:

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on."

Could have been written by TFT himself.

It continues...

"Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying"

Ever read that TFT? ;)

[IDB87]

On these two points Zawahiri is right. does that mean I support his agenda? Absolutely not. Islam is a vile cult IMO, and Zawahiri's particularity extremist and fundamentalist version of it is the worst it can be.

Did you know that Zawahiri is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Did you know that Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Isn't it interesting how most of these extremists know eachother, or at least come from the same background.

[IDB87]

You're starting to get ridiculous now. I've just told you what racism is, and you still ask what it is. :confused:

I'll repeat:

Racism is pretty simple. It's creating a negative prejudice against someone or a group of people purely because of their race/ethnicity.

When can someone label criticism of Israel as 'anti-Semitic'? Does it have to be open anti-Semitism (example: 'I hate Jews, therefore Israel is wrong) or can we make an assumption based on the context of their argument, the manner in which they present their argument etc?

You do understand the concept of prejudice don't you?

If Israel commits an act that is racist and someone criticizes it this is not prejudice it's 'postjudice' i.e A judgement has been made after the fact.

Prejudice is making a judgement before an act is committed.

I am not Marc, nor am I his sock. Why are you bothering with this?

Look, citing various Islamic individuals that have anti-semitic views doesn't absolve Israel of it's own behavior.

You'll be hard-pressed to find one my posts that says that. That is what we call a strawman.

The behavior of the Palestinians isn't perfect, and I certainly believe that firing rockets at innocent Israelis is disgusting behavior but you people who have a bias towards Israel need to stop denying the bad behavior of Israel if you are going to be taken seriously.

The issue you run into here is that the Palestinians that are firing the rockets into Israel are part of a group called Hamas - a group whose origins are based on Islamic Expansionism and war. These aren't your ordinary Palestinians, like Fatah or any of their wings. These are not left wing, socialist, working class Palestinians that just want their own state and peace with Israel. These are hard-core religious fanatics who want to reinstate the Caliphate, starting with the Levant. This is not a peaceful group, by any stretch.

Because despite the behavior of the various groups today the fact remains is that a territory called Palestine, which was the home to both Jews and Arabs was all of a sudden the subject of a claim by the Zionist Movement that it should be for Jews only and since then there has been displacement, war, slaughter, apartheid, etc,etc This is inherently racist/

This type of argument could be used to justify the Crusades. None the less, if you think one form of Extremism warrants another, you're in for a bloody mess, which is what we've got now in Israel.


How would you feel if I decided that my homeland was the land where you lived? how would you feel if I suddenly declared that your land was mine and that you should either get the hell out of it or continue to stay as a 2nd class citizen?

If only it were so simple to make Israel/Palestine analogous to the above.

Think about it from the Palestinians POV for a change!!!

I've never once denied their right to resist an occupation. I have a problem with their methods, which are driven by religious fundamentalism and nihilism.

Stop seeing the Palestinians by the benchmark of their extremist element.

It's difficult not to when they are represented and controlled by that extremist element.

I don't judge all Israelis by the benchmark of the Extremist Zionist element who want to expand across the whole Levant and further.

Yet you will be the first one to bring that up to use against Israel.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Did you know that Zawahiri is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Did you know that Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Isn't it interesting how most of these extremists know each other, or at least come from the same background.

Trying to align people such as myself who criticize the atrocities of Israel with Islamists is just as crass as shouting 'Anti-Semite!' at us.

Trying to lump everyone who criticizes Israel into one big pot is, frankly, retarded. It's the tired old "You are either with us or with them!" binary thinking that Bush may have succeeded in fooling a few plebs with, but it doesn't work on the rest of us.

So what if these Islamics come from the same background or maybe even know each other. The same can be said for the extremists within the Western corridors of power, including major players in the Israeli and US govenrments. In fact they know the Islamists as well. The Bin Laden familty is well known in the West. Bin laden, Zawahiri and others who came to Afghanistan to join in the jihad against the soviets came into contact with the CIA there.


What's your point?

[IDB87]

What's your point?

The point was that

Islam is a vile cult IMO, and Zawahiri's particularity extremist and fundamentalist version of it is the worst it can be

You do not deny that his views and motives are extremist and vile. He learned those views, and let them grow, when he was an active member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you think their motives may be suspect because of this allegiance?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

When can someone label criticism of Israel as 'anti-Semitic'? Does it have to be open anti-Semitism (example: 'I hate Jews, therefore Israel is wrong) or can we make an assumption based on the context of their argument, the manner in which they present their argument etc?

Making assumptions based upon the manner of someone's argument is nonsense and can only be described as an attempt to stifle criticism by claiming racism.

Criticizing Israel for it's behavior is not racist in itself. Even that criticism is made by some who also hates Jews and is an anti-semite.

I'm not going to stop criticizing Israel just because Islamists and anti-semites also make those criticisms.


I've never once denied their right to resist an occupation. I have a problem with their methods, which are driven by religious fundamentalism and nihilism.


I've never denied the Jews the right to a homeland. I have a problem with the methods of the Zionist Movement in it's creation of the homeland.

but remember that Israel as a homeland is driven by religious fundamentalism ...The Promised land, etc


I don't judge all Israelis by the benchmark of the Extremist Zionist element who want to expand across the whole Levant and further.
Yet you will be the first one to bring that up to use against Israel.

And? Israel's behavior as a country is no more the fault of innocent Israelis than the awful behavior of the USA against Iraq is the fault of innocent Americans.

[parky76]

When can someone label criticism of Israel as 'anti-Semitic'? Does it have to be open anti-Semitism (example: 'I hate Jews, therefore Israel is wrong) or can we make an assumption based on the context of their argument, the manner in which they present their argument etc?

Lets make a few things abundantly clear:

1. Israel is a country and as such deserves to be critisized when someone feels that they have done something wrong.

2. The Israeli people, like any other people, are capable of racism, war crimes, etc.

3. It is not anti-Semitic to simply accuse Israel of racism, war crimes, apartheid, discrimination, etc.

4. If someone's criticism and attacks against Israel are followed by or come after statements that attack Jews or Judaism, then that person's anti-Israel attitudes can be considered suspect..as being connected to anti-Semitism.

5. No two people are the same. You cannot accuse someone's anti-Israel feelings of being motivated by anti-Semitism, unless you have proof of that person ALSO having anti-Jewish beliefs.

6. Singling out Israel for criticism while not critisizing other nations, or even disregarding criticism of other countries, may be a double-standard, but unless their is ALSO evidence of hostility towards Jews, it is not an anti-Semitic double-srandard.

are we clear?

[IDB87]

What's your point?

You glossed over the points I was trying to make and instead focused on Israel.

The points, again, were:

You do not deny that [Zawahiri's] views and motives are extremist and vile. He learned those views, and let them grow, when he was an active member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you think their motives may be suspect because of this allegiance?

You also said,

The behavior of the Palestinians isn't perfect, and I certainly believe that firing rockets at innocent Israelis is disgusting behavior but you people who have a bias towards Israel need to stop denying the bad behavior of Israel if you are going to be taken seriously.

To which I responded:

The issue you run into here is that the Palestinians that are firing the rockets into Israel are part of a group called Hamas - a group whose origins are based on Islamic Expansionism and war. These aren't your ordinary Palestinians, like Fatah or any of their wings. These are not left wing, socialist, working class Palestinians that just want their own state and peace with Israel. These are hard-core religious fanatics who want to reinstate the Caliphate, starting with the Levant. This is not a peaceful group, by any stretch.

Anything to say? This is dealing with Hamas' roots in fundamentalism.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Lets make a few things abundantly clear:

1. Israel is a country and as such deserves to be critisized when someone feels that they have done something wrong.

2. The Israeli people, like any other people, are capable of racism, war crimes, etc.

3. It is not anti-Semitic to simply accuse Israel of racism, war crimes, apartheid, discrimination, etc.

4. If someone's criticism and attacks against Israel are followed by or come after statements that attack Jews or Judaism, then that person's anti-Israel attitudes can be considered suspect..as being connected to anti-Semitism.

5. No two people are the same. You cannot accuse someone's anti-Israel feelings of being motivated by anti-Semitism, unless you have proof of that person ALSO having anti-Jewish beliefs.

6. Singling out Israel for criticism while not critisizing other nations, or even disregarding criticism of other countries, may be a double-standard, but unless their is ALSO evidence of hostility towards Jews, it is not an anti-Semitic double-srandard.

are we clear?

Well said Parky. It oughta be in the Forum FAQ :)

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You glossed over the points I was trying to make and instead focused on Israel.

The points, again, were:



You also said,



To which I responded:



Anything to say? This is dealing with Hamas' roots in fundamentalism.

Yes.


I'm well aware of Islamic Extremism. I've no doubt that some of the motives of members of Hamas is rooted in fundamentalism. You must also realize that much of the motives of Israel's behavior is rooted in fundamentalism too. Jeez, the old Promised Land nonsense is religious fundamentalism.

So if your point is that Israel is justified in it's behavior because those it considers infidels ( i.e Islamic Fundamentalism ) then you couldn't be more mistaken. Islamic fundamentalism does NOT justify Israel's racist persecution of the Palestinians, including the apartheid in the West Bank, the two tier system of prejudice in Israel itself.

Israel is NOT a victim. It's a racist country that has forcibly created itself in a most immoral manner in a region in the middle East it considers a right to do so based upon some fairy tale mythology. And because it's initial territory isn't as big as it would like it's continuing upon an agenda of expansionism until it reaches it's goal.

You cannot expect to do that and then expect those who were displaced and plundered not to fight back. The Palestinians would still fight back even if they were all atheists or secularists.

[lionking]

I've never denied the Jews the right to a homeland. I have a problem with the methods of the Zionist Movement in it's creation of the homeland.



Yet you have repeatedly stated that homeland should not be in the middle east. Where then?

[The Fool]

Yet you have repeatedly stated that homeland should not be in the middle east. Where then?
How about Victoria? Its full of swine flu anyway.....we could do with the cash. :)

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yet you have repeatedly stated that homeland should not be in the middle east. Where then?

Have I? Please provide links. No I didn't think so.

Actually my position remains the same. And that is I've no problem with any group of people creating a homeland as long as it doesn't piss on others in the process.

The creation of israel not only pissed on aq lot of people but tiped a bucket of rotting feces on them as well. FAIL. Big time!

[Pardalis]

Yet you have repeatedly stated that homeland should not be in the middle east. Where then?

Well TFT wants the Jewish homeland in a place that's not already occupied by humans, so I guess it's either Yellowknife, Antarctica, anywhere on the ocean floor or the Moon.

[DC]

Yet you have repeatedly stated that homeland should not be in the middle east. Where then?

Did he? missed those posts, can you link me to them?

[Pardalis]

Then what do you suggest TFT? Relocation (http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2007/10/while-the-un-do.html) of Israel entirely?

Either it stays where it is, and you keep whining for another 60 years about how unjust you think the whole deal was, or you have a better suggestion.

[lionking]

Have I? Please provide links. No I didn't think so.

Actually my position remains the same. And that is I've no problem with any group of people creating a homeland as long as it doesn't piss on others in the process.

The creation of israel not only pissed on aq lot of people but tiped a bucket of rotting feces on them as well. FAIL. Big time!

This is just one. I was going to go back through more of your posts, but my stomach would probably not stand it.

It's a racist country that has forcibly created itself in a most immoral manner in a region in the middle East it considers a right to do so based upon some fairy tale mythology

I suppose you will try to use sophistry to show that you didn't really mean that Israel shouldn't have been created in the middle east.

[DC]

This is just one. I was going to go back through more of your posts, but my stomach would probably not stand it.



I suppose you will try to use sophistry to show that you didn't really mean that Israel shouldn't have been created in the middle east.

how does that say what you claimed? care to explain?

[lionking]

I know that english is not your long suit, but TFT's meaning is quite clear. Israel's existence in the middle east is immoral.

Where would you have the jews move to DC?

[DC]

I know that english is not your long suit, but TFT's meaning is quite clear. Israel's existence in the middle east is immoral.

Where would have the jews move to DC?

actually how i understand his sentence, the immoral part is about THE WAY it was created, not where it was created.

i dont want to move jews anywhere, i even think that jews that want to live in israel should be able to do that.
im in favor of a 2 state solution. this would include Israel.

i think you have a problem, you seem to assume im an anti-semite.
im not.
But i am against the creation of new nations other than Palestine. so im against a Kurdistan and others. It causes only alot new problems. I would say the same about Israel if Israel was not created yet, but it is, and there is no way for me to get it moved or get it dissapear. i belive now it must stay. now it is the home of the Israelis. now we need a home for the Palestinians, i think thats the way to reach peace in some future.

but i do belive the settlements in the Westbank must be removed, those people must move to Israel or become Palestinian citizens in future. but i guess i must point out to you that i dont want to kill them. just to make that clear.

it may be strange to you, but i do see Jews and israelis as Human beeings. like i do with Palestinians and moslems.

[parky76]

AIPAC is the largest and most preeminent lobby for the Jewish State in the United States. That's what I meant by "the Jews".

The largest and most preeminent lobby for the Jewish State in the United States.................and "The Jews".....is the same thing?????????

Wow, that is a pretty anti-Semitic thing to say!!

It also suggests Jews are just full of dual-loyalty.

And it suggests Israel=Jews=Israeli.

Right-wing Zionism to the core. Though Neo-Nazis would agree with you.

Mortimer, my dear friend, the Jews and Israel are NOT the same thing.

This is a great example of anti-Zionism being dishonestly confused with anti-Semitism.

Its also a great example of saying the Jews and Israel are the same thing.

Both of which, are absolute BS. This is absurd.

[Tricky]

I've scraped this thread and sent the scrapings to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=144703), or at least the last two pages of it. (I don't have the stamina for more.) It appears to have degenerated into a series of mostly off-topic bickering.

Look, I know you guys don't like each other, but you're going to have to make a better job of disguising your feelings or there are going to be some MIA's here pretty soon. Discuss the topic, not each other. No, I don't care who "did it first". If they did, don't respond. Stay on topic. Don't make personal attacks. Don't evaluate each other's posting style. Don't bring in issues from other threads.

What more do we have to say to you?
:con2:

[gumboot]

Concerning the antiquated rocket technology from Palestinians: The solution is peace due to the two state being finally comming into existence because it would moderate a lot of Palestinians and keep them busy to build up their own Palestinian future without aggressive foreign intervention.


You mean like how it worked with Lebanon?

Oh wait...

[Oliver]

You mean like how it worked with Lebanon?

Oh wait...


Are you referring to the country-less Palestinians in Lebanon (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/index.html)? :rolleyes:

[Skeptic]

Concerning the antiquated rocket technology from Palestinians: The solution is peace due to the two state being finally comming into existence because it would moderate a lot of Palestinians

Of COURSE it would. Look how it moderated the people of Gaza!

Wait, don't tell me: they were not "moderated" because Israel is still protecting its borders against the terrorist thugs that came to power there, so it's all the "blockade"'s fault.

So I suppose the same thing will happen in the WB, won't it? Israel will be attacked from it, impose a blockade, people will blame it for not giving even more land, etc., etc. rinse, repeat.

[bigjelmapro]

So no response to the actual topic of this thread yet?

[parky76]

So no response to the actual topic of this thread yet?

That's exactly what your post is. Do you know what the topic is?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Are you referring to the country-less Palestinians in Lebanon (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/index.html)? :rolleyes:

Not surprising that the mainstream media biases are ever present in the west eh?

from that article
====================================
July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.
================================

Dozens? Actually around 1200 Lebanese Civilians were killed. but then we've come to expect that playing down of non Zionist casualties in the western media haven't we?

[Pardalis]

Not surprising that the mainstream media biases are ever present in the west eh?

from that article
====================================
July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.
================================

Dozens? Actually around 1200 Lebanese Civilians were killed. but then we've come to expect that playing down of non Zionist casualties in the western media haven't we?

Well the article is date July 14th 2006, only two days after the conflict started.

Take those paranoid anti-Zionist blinders off.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Well the article is date July 14th 2006, only two days after the conflict started.

Take those paranoid anti-Zionist blinders off.

Ohh dear, my bad. :blush:

Well I guess you owe yourself a celebratory drink for scoring a success at last. Well done! Congratulations Pardalis.

Although you did kinda ruin it all by using the word 'paranoid'

[Pardalis]

Ohh dear, my bad. :blush:

Well I guess you owe yourself a celebratory drink for scoring a success at last. Well done! Congratulations Pardalis.

Although you did kinda ruin it all by using the word 'paranoid'

At least you admitted your mistake, which looks good on you. :)

I still stand by my paranoid remark though, because when you saw the discrepancy in the number of casualties, you did jump uncritically to the conclusion that there was a vast media conspiracy pretty fast. It's almost as if it's your default position.

[parky76]

Dozens? Actually around 1200 Lebanese Civilians were killed. but then we've come to expect that playing down of non Zionist casualties in the western media haven't we?

Don't you mean "non-Zionist Movement supporters"?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

At least you admitted your mistake, which looks good on you. :)

I still stand by my paranoid remark though, because when you saw the discrepancy in the number of casualties, you did jump uncritically to the conclusion that there was a vast media conspiracy pretty fast. It's almost as if it's your default position.


Doesn't mean I'm paranoid. I have no deluded and unfounded fears of being watched, chased or persecuted.

'vast media conspiracy' is hyperbole btw.

[bigjelmapro]

That's exactly what your post is. Do you know what the topic is?
Did you even bother to read my post I made previously regarding the actual story behind this 'wardrill'? Guess not.

[Marc39]

Dozens? Actually around 1200 Lebanese Civilians were killed. but then we've come to expect that playing down of non Zionist casualties in the western media haven't we?

The deaths of Arabs killed by other Arabs makes Israel look like girl scouts. 2,000 Palestinians have been killed just in the past three years by internecine warfare between Fatah and Hamas. Thousands were murdered by King Hussein in Jordan. 400,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed by Kuwait after the Gulf War because of their support for Iraq. Scores of Kuwaitis were killed by Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds were slaughtered by Iraq. I could go on.

In toto, when it comes to killing Arabs, the Israelis don't even come close.

[Pardalis]

400,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed by Kuwait after the Gulf War because of their support for Iraq.

IIRC they were expelled, not killed.

[Slayhamlet]

IIRC they were expelled, not killed.

Ethnic cleansing doesn't necessarily require any killing. Quite a few ethnic Palestinians were killed, though, by government-endorsed mob violence.

[Marc39]

IIRC they were expelled, not killed.

Ethnic cleansing need not involve death, although Pals were killed in Kuwait.

[Marc39]

Ethnic cleansing need not involve death, although Pals were killed in Kuwait.

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20War%20Complete/Chapter%2010,%20Palestinians%20in%20Kuwait,%20Terr or%20and%20Ethnic%20Cleansing,%20By%20Hassan%20A%2 0El-Najjar.htm

[Sword_Of_Truth]

*poof*

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Iran has more right to bomb Israel then Israel has to bomb Iran.

I'm just speechless... just... wow.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Israel HAS nuclear weapons today. Many of them. Israel is more of a threat to Iran.

I hope Iran acts pre-emptively to remove the Israeli threat.

Oh my gawd...

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Look, I know you guys don't like each other, but you're going to have to make a better job of disguising your feelings or there are going to be some MIA's here pretty soon.

This mod box would have been frickin hilarious if posted in CT/911CT forums threads. "OH MY GAWD!! THEY'RE THREATENING TO "DISAPPAER" PEOPLE, AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!" :D

*AHEM* No disrespect to mod authority intended, of course. ;)

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I'm just speechless... just... wow.

Well when you weigh things up realistically and not through the filter of the racist neo-Zionist group then Parky is right.

[parky76]

I'm just speechless...

That would be a wonderful gift.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I know that english is not your long suit, but TFT's meaning is quite clear. Israel's existence in the middle east is immoral.

Where would you have the jews move to DC?

Ahh lionking.

As this is a skeptics forum and if my meaning is quite clear, perhaps you could show us where I said Israel's existence in the middle East is immoral? I'm sure you were telling the truth so a clarification with a link to the post in question should clear things up nicely. Thanks for your participation. :)

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Oh my gawd...

Ok Sword_Of I guess you've heard about Israel's little bombing mission in Syria? So why shouldn't it's neighbors bomb Israel's nuclear weapons facilities? Only fair isn't it? I mean I'm sure you don't support double standards in Israel's favor?

[Marc39]

Ok Sword_Of I guess you've heard about Israel's little bombing mission in Syria? So why shouldn't it's neighbors bomb Israel's nuclear weapons facilities? Only fair isn't it? I mean I'm sure you don't support double standards in Israel's favor?

I guess you heard of America's little bombing mission in Iraq and Afghanistan? It's known as self-defense. Did you know the US has had an economic embargo on Syria because of terrorist activities in supporting Hamas and Hizbullah? No terror state should be permitted to have a nuclear bomb, and, Israel did the right thing in destroying Syria's nuclear facility. They made the world a much safer place. Israel deserves thanks, not baseless criticism

[parky76]

Israel deserves thanks, not baseless criticism

Thanks..for making the Muslim world hate us.

Thanks...for Jonathan Pollard.

Thanks..for the USS Liberty.

Thanks...for inspiring the 9-11 terrorists.

Thanks...for nothing!!!

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Thanks..for making the Muslim world hate us.

Thanks...for Jonathan Pollard.

Thanks..for the USS Liberty.

Thanks...for inspiring the 9-11 terrorists.

Thanks...for nothing!!!

I cannot think of one single thing to thank Israel for. I only wish criticisms of Israel were baseless. The world would be a much safer place.

The staging of a 'war drill' kinda says it all in some respects.

[Marc39]

I cannot think of one single thing to thank Israel for.

Many poor people in Third World and developing countries lacking proper medical care, particularly cardiac care for children, thank Israel for its "Save A Child's Heart" program which dispatches Israeli medical doctors to provide healthcare services free-of-charge...

http://www.saveachildsheart.org/

[Skeptic]

Ah, if only those annoying Jews in Israel dropped dead and disappeared, the Muslim world would be satisfied, and will no longer hate the west.

Parky76 just cannot understand why he needs to worry about terrorist attacks in the USA because of of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom he knows nothing. (http://images.google.co.il/imgres?imgurl=http://varifrank.com/images/chamberlain2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://varifrank.com/archives/2008/09/index.php&usg=__3_TaOgxPVMV1tTcw9vJ1pUI8vD8=&h=403&w=436&sz=96&hl=iw&start=2&um=1&tbnid=9gkGOEkSly8vDM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchamberlain%26hl%3Diw%26client%3Dfire fox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:he:official%26hs%3Dbx8%26sa% 3DN%26um%3D1).