Refuting Lourdes

[ReverendClog]

I have been ill for quite a while now, and generally won't get much better than I am at present. A good friend of mine, who is a bit of a god-botherer, has offered to take me to Lourdes in France, and is convinced it will help me get better.
I have tried to let her down gently, (she is delightful company, despite the religious nonsense), but she keeps giving me details of various cases of verified cures at the place. I have looked at them and it seems that the medical council which verifies these cures is legitimate, and apparently rejects many more cases than it investigates.
I argued with her last night that spontaneous cures are known from cases which involve neither religion or shrines e.t.c., but she was a bit distressed, and to be frank I couldn't back my argument up. I have been told to go and enjoy a free trip with my friend, but i am in as good health as I ever shall be right now and I think a week getting stressed out by religious stupidity would not help at all. I have counter offered a trip to Goa, but it has met with derision, (I wonder if she wants to go to Lourdes but can't find an excuse).
Can anyone on JREF help me with cases of spontaneous remission or tell me if the Lourdes medical council is not as bona-fide as it seems.:confused:

[MG1962]

I dont see a problem - at the very worst you get a nice little trip to a lovely piece of France - Is that really that tough a choice?

[Morwen]

That area of France is quite lovely; Lourdes itself is all but, or at least that's what it seemed to me. I found it depressing, crowded, full of religious merchandising-most of it tacky beyond words-, and unexpressably sad. If you're not a Catholic and go there without faith of recovery, don't go. As you say, it will likely stress you out and be counterproductive to your health. Tell this to your friend; she will probably understand.

On the other hand, France is so beautiful that you should go there just to enjoy the place. Avoid Lourdes and enjoy the rest!

[foxholeatheist]

First of all, I am sorry to hear that your health is ailing.

And like MG stated, I would take her up on it. What's the harm?

Without knowing your specific illness I can only point this out to you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6140000/newsid_6145700/nb_rm_6145768.stm

[Rasmus]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/1/16/ErnieBertBananaEarPart1.jpg

[P.J. Denyer]

An expensive trip to a religious tourist trap? Not my idea of fun...

Lourdes has been a site of pilgrimage for 151 years and currently sees about 5 million pilgrims a year, yet only claims 66 'miracle' cures none of which are medical impossibilities such as the regrowth of a limb. Frankly I would expect most modern hospitals could cite more surprise remissions.

For a quick sceptical overview-:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk

[LibraryLady]

I recommend the book The Faith Healers by James Randi. There is a heart breaking chapter on Lourdes.

[ReverendClog]

I appreciate the sentiment of taking a free holiday in France. I normally go over there about twice a year to stay with my relatives, however, I would feel awfully bothered by the tackiness and fervor of the whole Lourdes experience. I really think it would make me more ill, perhaps I should be a bit calmer but I'm too old and too tired to stop being annoyed at blind faith.

[Denver]

I appreciate the sentiment of taking a free holiday in France. I normally go over there about twice a year to stay with my relatives, however, I would feel awfully bothered by the tackiness and fervor of the whole Lourdes experience. I really think it would make me more ill, perhaps I should be a bit calmer but I'm too old and too tired to stop being annoyed at blind faith.

Sometimes, these kinds of offers are only partially about coping with your condition: they are also to help your friend cope with your condition. So depending on your relationship there, it might be a nice gesture on your part to help her out by going.

It could also be educational, to look at the site not as a bunch of crazies, but as a bunch of real people, doing their own best to cope with their issues, some maybe the same outlook as you. A very human social phenomenon seen close up on an impressive scale.

It could also be a way to educate your friend: if she is convinced of its value, your going may help her to change her mind.

Of course, in the best of all worlds, you'd get well.

[Earthborn]

If you really don't want to go yourself, and also don't want to alienate your friend, you can also tell her that you really prefer to stay home while ill but that you won't stop her from going to Lourdes, praying for you... and perhaps even that if she brings back some of that water you would drink it (or whatever it is that one is supposed to do with it). Let the mountain come to Mohammed, so to speak. ;)

[steve s]

Lourdes has been a site of pilgrimage for 151 years and currently sees about 5 million pilgrims a year, yet only claims 66 'miracle' cures none of which are medical impossibilities such as the regrowth of a limb. Frankly I would expect most modern hospitals could cite more surprise remissions.


I like P.J.'s tactic. You figure that at least a few hundred million people have to have visited the place over the past 150 years. If the church only recognizes 66 genuine miracles, that works out to a 0.000022% success rate. I think even the homeopaths have a better success rate than that.

Steve S.

[dropzone]

I recommend the book The Faith Healers by James Randi.Who he? Isn't he that cheesy magician who thinks he knows everything. (looking at the top of the page) Oh, THAT James Randi! The wise one who smites idiocy at every turn. I must've been thinking of Ricky Jay.



(please don't ban me)

[Fiona]

It is good that your friend so wants you to get well: but it is you who is ill and you must do (and not do) what is best for you. Perhaps you have better things to do with your time than debunking, too: and to be honest I doubt whether your friend will be open to persuasion at this time particularly. Maybe pursuing this argument will just make you both unhappy: and your friendship is worth more than that, surely.

It sounds as if your friend is feeling helpless and really wants to do something for you and also for herself. It is, as Denver said, part of how some people cope. I do not think that means you should go but perhaps there are other things you want or need that she could do? Maybe you have always wanted to go to Goa and she was so focussed on Lourdes and religion that she missed its importance to you?

Presumably her God can do his thing wherever you are, and she must believe that at some level: so perhaps it is the demonstration that you have no faith which has become the issue for her? I have seen Christians for whom the prospect of hell for their friends and relatives is very real : but if that is the case then going to please her will be worse than useless: because the point then is her hope for your conversion and the "miracle" is just a sideshow in her scheme of things. Seems like the trip can only upset you and disappoint her.

You have said this is a good friend, and you have presumably known each others views for a long time: but it probably did not matter before. Maybe neither of you realised how important the difference is and this has taken you by surprise. Perhaps you need to talk about this and see if you can find a way to accept this difference and move on: I am not sure rational debunking will help with that, though you may of course wish to pursue that for your own interest anyway. You value your friend for reasons other than her beliefs: and she values you similarly. That is what seems important to me.

[LibraryLady]

It is good that your friend so wants you to get well: but it is you who is ill and you must do (and not do) what is best for you. Perhaps you have better things to do with your time than debunking, too: and to be honest I doubt whether your friend will be open to persuasion at this time particularly. Maybe pursuing this argument will just make you both unhappy: and your friendship is worth more than that, surely.

It sounds as if your friend is feeling helpless and really wants to do something for you and also for herself. It is, as Denver said, part of how some people cope. I do not think that means you should go but perhaps there are other things you want or need that she could do? Maybe you have always wanted to go to Goa and she was so focussed on Lourdes and religion that she missed its importance to you?

Presumably her God can do his thing wherever you are, and she must believe that at some level: so perhaps it is the demonstration that you have no faith which has become the issue for her? I have seen Christians for whom the prospect of hell for their friends and relatives is very real : but if that is the case then going to please her will be worse than useless: because the point then is her hope for your conversion and the "miracle" is just a sideshow in her scheme of things. Seems like the trip can only upset you and disappoint her.

You have said this is a good friend, and you have presumably known each others views for a long time: but it probably did not matter before. Maybe neither of you realised how important the difference is and this has taken you by surprise. Perhaps you need to talk about this and see if you can find a way to accept this difference and move on: I am not sure rational debunking will help with that, though you may of course wish to pursue that for your own interest anyway. You value your friend for reasons other than her beliefs: and she values you similarly. That is what seems important to me.

Fiona, I wish you would stop saying what I want to say but better. It's very annoying. :)

[chillzero]

and perhaps even that if she brings back some of that water you would drink it (or whatever it is that one is supposed to do with it). Let the mountain come to Mohammed, so to speak. ;)

Do not drink the water!!
Personally, I wouldn't even touch water from Lourdes. It's either from the baths area which are refreshed by pumps and irradiated (not sure what effect that is supposed to have on holiness), or from a cistern where many people can be dipping in their (possibly diseased) hands, lips and bottles. Even the baths don't really seem to guarantee that any germs or illness held by the person in ahead of you are appropriately flushed out.

Your friend may now - post 911 - be unable to bring any water back for you anyway on the plane, unless she puts it in the hold.

Personally, I think she should have some respect for your feelings on the matter, and apart from not subjecting you to the stress of a trip you don't want to take, she should not be putting strain on your relastionship by not dropping the subject the first time you explained your feelings about it.

[Starthinker]

The water may be okay if you boil it first in the microwave. Not sure if that will kill the god in it, too. Consult your local bible for more information.

[leonAzul]

An expensive trip to a religious tourist trap? Not my idea of fun...

Lourdes has been a site of pilgrimage for 151 years and currently sees about 5 million pilgrims a year, yet only claims 66 'miracle' cures none of which are medical impossibilities such as the regrowth of a limb. Frankly I would expect most modern hospitals could cite more surprise remissions.

For a quick sceptical overview-:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk

Oh, furf oox ache, why direct someone in pain to that sort of reverse propaganda, as if that makes it more righteous?

Just let it be. If it's not your cup of meat, then simply say: "No, thank you."

Otherwise the entertainment value could be worth the price of admission, if that sort of adventure calls to you.

But only if it doesn't interfere with real treatment.

[P.J. Denyer]

Oh, furf oox ache, why direct someone in pain to that sort of reverse propaganda, as if that makes it more righteous?


How about 'because they asked', or would it have been more 'righteous' to say 'no, everything is wonderful and I'm sure you will be miraculously cured'? The OP asked, and I for one am not going to patronise them by lying especially when they are obviously realistic about their situation and sceptical of the claims to start with.

What is so rightous about encourageing someone to waste their time and money on a potentially stressful trip which could in itself agrivate the problem (we don't know what the OP's condition is), to a town full of sick and in some cases infectious people which profits off of the backs of the desperate (even Malcom Muggeridge described the souvenir shops that surround the place as garish and tasteless), when they are not even a believer in the first place?

As for 'reverse propaganda' the figures given in the clip come from the Lourdes Medical Board, indeed they are presented by their representative, if they are not convincing, who's fault is that?

[ponderingturtle]

Hmm, am I evil for thinking that it might be fun to sneak a buch of prosthetic arms and legs into lourdes and leave them in the pile of walkers and such?

[HansMustermann]

Prosthetics? Heh. Suddenly I have an urge to go dump a strapon there :p

[Rasmus]

Hmm, am I evil for thinking that it might be fun to sneak a buch of prosthetic arms and legs into lourdes and leave them in the pile of walkers and such?

Yes, you are.






But that's not a bad thing as such!

[Starthinker]

Rebecca went to Lourdes, you can read about it on page 83, the entry for January 15, 2007. http://www.starthinker.com/files/rebeccaslament.pdf

[godless dave]

I have looked at them and it seems that the medical council which verifies these cures is legitimate, and apparently rejects many more cases than it investigates.

They are a legitimate agent of the Catholic Church, yes.