Quigong practitioner, don't know how he does it

[m_huber]

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I'm not sure how he does this. Setting a newspaper on fire is most likely a device or chemical of some sort, but when he is shocking/burning people when their hands are on his stomach, I have no idea. The chopstick through the table seems like a familiar magic trick, except that he nicked the woman in the head. That part confuses me. I know that speculation from a video can't be conclusive, but I would like some perspective on how he did this.
Thanks!

[UncaYimmy]

Why do they always forget to bring a conjurer?

[Rasmus]

...

I just want to point out that I find the entire story utterly unbelievable.

They followed him around with a camera crew for years just hoping he'd change his mind?

And he later on agreed to have a performance filmed and then got upset when other people were shown his little publicity stunt?

Why would he suddenly agree to have the treatment of the film maker's brother recorded? And given how much he seems to mind the entire recording and publicity, why do they have footage of so many different patients?

And why would you use people to ground electricity rather than a piece of wire?

[jasonpatterson]

Note that, as usual, they didn't bring a magician along with the group of experts.

I'm not saying that this is how he does it, but I do know of a similar shocking effect. You can hold the end of an active tesla coil without getting shocked at all. Whenever anyone touches you anywhere on your body, both of you are shocked. I wonder what would have happened if someone had had their hands on his shoulders during the shocking events. I noticed that he tensed every time he shocked someone, which implies that he was being shocked as well but was expecting it. The inability of the people to detect the electricity on a multimeter isn't too surprising, as they will only pick up a narrow range of alternating currents and voltages (most shocking devices use voltage that is too high and have a very high frequency.) I don't know whether they will light LEDs or not; I've never tried. You can also light fires with your fingertips when you're touching a tesla coil, it's a bit painful, but a cool effect...

[Pushkin]

and why mix trickery with chi etc etc.

the newspaper thing is some kind of chemical exothermic reaction which indicates very strongly that he's a magician rather than a holy man.

watching suckers get fooled isn't really grounds for amazement.

[UncaYimmy]

The newspaper seemed to ignite from the bottom.

[Toke]

Ok, the technical quality is better than my telekinesis parody, but that does not make it more convincing. (or maybe I am just jealus).

The multimeter shown looks like one of the cheapest available on the streets of Hong Kong. (I bought one to fit in my shirt pocket and tell 440V 60Hz from nothing.) Which is completely irrelevant if everybody on the set is in on it.

Great points already, no magician present, and incoherent story.

[leafman91]

And why would you use people to ground electricity rather than a piece of wire?

As he said in the video, it isn't electricity, it's chi. One assumes chi behaves differently.
And if the person was in contact with ground (I didn't notice what the floor was in the video) then the electricity would defer to the person as ground.

Another explanation is that if the electricity comes from a human, then by physical law, there needs to be a ground to which the chi/electricity can flow, within that same person. It's a bit obvious really, other wise the chi tricks would only work when the person was in contact with bare earth, or a wire leading to ground

[jakesteele]

and why mix trickery with chi etc etc.

the newspaper thing is some kind of chemical exothermic reaction which indicates very strongly that he's a magician rather than a holy man.

watching suckers get fooled isn't really grounds for amazement.

Why did you automatically come to the conclusion that it is trickery? I think your mind is made up that all of this kind of thing is fake and it's just a matter of figuring out how the trick was done. You went in with an agenda to disprove as opposed to suspending judgment and bias and assessing objectively.

There are no Tesla Coils that I could see so that is a moot point unless you could find one hidden off camera. I think bring a conjurer is a good thing to do, but all they do is try to duplicate the outward appearances which some people take as proof positive.

The best way to test his ability, or lack thereof, would be to have a Phd. in physics who is unaffiliated with all parties and have him go with a reputable witness who films the scientist buying two of the exact same newspapers from the same vendor. Then give both the magician and the qi gong guy full body searches, especially the hands, and have them wear only their underpants and then let them go at it. Regardless of outcome, that would be considered a very convincing and solid protocol.

[leafman91]

I agree with the no magician criticism but I really was expecting the 'incoherent' storyline. Firstly, chi is a religious thing, so you would expect the chi guy to do otherwise irrational stuff like take 2 year treks through the forest 'n' stuff at random. It's just his beliefs.Second, of course the guys hung around for years looking for him. Not only were they searching for what would could potentially be a massive story, but because they had just seen 'magic' they were hardly going to walk away and pretend everything was normal. It's a psychological thing. The chi guy had given the presenter a new world to explore, and he wanted to explore it. I bet they had to fight to keep going back each year.

[Toke]

Why did you automatically come to the conclusion that it is trickery? I think your mind is made up that all of this kind of thing is fake and it's just a matter of figuring out how the trick was done. You went in with an agenda to disprove as opposed to suspending judgment and bias and assessing objectively.
[snip]


It could have something to do with everyone tested so far having been fakes.
It does give a bit of a bias, a justifiable one.

[YULE]

Why did you automatically come to the conclusion that it is trickery? I think your mind is made up that all of this kind of thing is fake and it's just a matter of figuring out how the trick was done. You went in with an agenda to disprove as opposed to suspending judgment and bias and assessing objectively.Actually it's completely acceptable to assume trickery and try to rule out all ways of cheating first, if only due to Occam's Razor. What requires the lesser of new explanations, that this man is cheating somehow or that he possesses a mystical energy?

Although it may seem close minded, it is actually just a way of coming across the most likely explanation first.

[Audible Click]

Can any of our magicians tell us if all the things on the video can be explained by trickery? And yes I'm a skeptic.

[Rasmus]

Can any of our magicians tell us if all the things on the video can be explained by trickery? And yes I'm a skeptic.

It's a video for eff's sake. Would you wonder if what you saw on Matrix, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings could have possibly been trickery?

Yes, it could all have been trickery - regardless of whether the film team or any of the "patients" were in on it or not.

It doesn't even matter if somebody here can name a method of performing these or similar tricks under varying circumstances or not. The video is worthless, it's not more valuable as is any other claim made.

[Audible Click]

It's a video for eff's sake. Would you wonder if what you saw on Matrix, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings could have possibly been trickery?

Yes, it could all have been trickery - regardless of whether the film team or any of the "patients" were in on it or not.

It doesn't even matter if somebody here can name a method of performing these or similar tricks under varying circumstances or not. The video is worthless, it's not more valuable as is any other claim made.

Geeze..calm down. Of course I know that SFX in movies are not real. I was asking my question to find out if magicians perform any of those specific tricks as seen in the video ie are they common tricks that magicians use.

[Rasmus]

Geeze..calm down. Of course I know that SFX in movies are not real. I was asking my question to find out if magicians perform any of those specific tricks as seen in the video ie are they common tricks that magicians use.

I'm sorry, I didin't mean to attack you. I just think we're allowing ourselves to be mislead if we play the "well, then tell us how it eas done" game with the woos.

[Audible Click]

Well thanks for the apology..maybe my first post was sort of unclear. I wanted to see if any of the magicians on here would say something like "Oh yeah..the old chopstick through the table trick." I don't want to know how any tricks are done as I enjoy magic just the way it is: Illusion and ,from me, amazement.

[CelticRose]

Did anybody else notice that although the qi gong guy supposedly treated the presenter for an eye problem, the presenter was wearing any eye patch? Looks like the treatment wasn't very successful. :oldroll:

The first part of the video just looked like he knew acupunture and acupressure very well. If you know the right pressure points to stimulate, you can get a physical reaction. However, we only had the video team's word for the presence of an electric shock. Since they were speaking in English, I'd be willing to bet that none of the patients had any idea what they were talking about.

IMO, the fire, light bulb, and chopstick could easily be tricks, although I don't know how they're done. The chopstick could have simply been brute force through a weak point in the table.

[KingMerv00]

Why did you automatically come to the conclusion that it is trickery?

Because all of recorded scientific history says such things are not possible but through trickery. This conclusion is tentative of course. Should sufficient evidence be presented, I would change my tune.

I vaguely recall Randi debunking a similar "electric man". Turns out he was standing on a special electric mat while barefoot. Could be the case here.

[shuttlt]

Odd the way he cups the end of the rifle in his hand before the bullet is shot into it. If the the video didn't explain he was doing it by channeling mystical energy I'd swear he was cack-handedly palming it.

[jasonpatterson]

There are no Tesla Coils that I could see so that is a moot point unless you could find one hidden off camera.


Indeed, which is why I wrote that I wasn't implying that that was how he did it... :confused:

They also, generally, require a corded power supply and are quite noisy. I was making a comparison between similar physical effects and what I saw in the video. Surely there are other simple means of concealing an object on one's person that could shock another person using similar means. Heck, an electric joy buzzer would do the job...

[jakesteele]

Indeed, which is why I wrote that I wasn't implying that that was how he did it... :confused:

They also, generally, require a corded power supply and are quite noisy. I was making a comparison between similar physical effects and what I saw in the video. Surely there are other simple means of concealing an object on one's person that could shock another person using similar means. Heck, an electric joy buzzer would do the job...

LOL, at 'electric joy buzzer'. That's sounds as good as any an explanation because magicians tricks while appearing amazing and baffling on the surface more often than not are some very simple thing like that. That's why I never watch that show 'Magician's Tricks Revealed', it really bums me out to have the 'magic' taken away.

[KingMerv00]

LOL, at 'electric joy buzzer'. That's sounds as good as any an explanation because magicians tricks while appearing amazing and baffling on the surface more often than not are some very simple thing like that. That's why I never watch that show 'Magician's Tricks Revealed', it really bums me out to have the 'magic' taken away.

From House:

(The magician/patient dazzles House with a trick he can't explain. House wants to know how he did it but the patient refuses.}

Magician: "Oh, if I explain it becomes mundane, and you lose the actual magic.

House: "What do you mean the actual magic? Think you're actually sawing woman in half? ...Magic is cool. Actual magic is oxymoronic. Might not even be oxy...."

Magician: "The fun is in not knowing."

House: "The fun is in knowing...." (House demonstrates a little magic while saying this and then later demonstrates his own abilities,) "You eat a lot of beets, you have an electric toothbrush, and you sleep less than six hours a night."

Magician: "That's impressive."

House: "The red betamine from the beets stains the plaque deposits on your teeth, which are then swirled by your spinning toothbrush. Your heavy lids and your prematurely aging skin tell me that you're carrying a major sleep debt."

Magician: "That was way cooler before you explained it."

House: "It was meaningless until I explained it."

Magician: "People come to my show because they want a sense of wonder. They want to experience something that they can't explain."

House: "If the wonder's gone when the truth is known, there never was any wonder. You have tularaemia from your rabbits. I've put you on antibiotics, you'll be better in a couple of days. Sorry to spoil the mystery."

[krelnik]

I remember that same video that KingMerv00 mentioned: Randi debunked a guy JUST like this on a show. It was that Korean show that had Randi on as an expert. They did the ground work themselves.

I couldn't find it at first, but a little digging turned it up. Sorry, all the narration is in Korean:

9pBe2_tbPUE

It turned out he has a gadget in his shoe that supplies an electric charge through his feet. He manipulated it by moving his foot at appropriate moments. I think it precisely explains what is happening in the OP video. It doesn't take much voltage at all to cause muscle movements, especially if it is being directed to precise locations using acupuncture needles or other means.

The gun trick is pure sleight of hand, doesn't impress me at all.

Yes, this video is another reminder that one should always have a conjurer present when investigating people of this sort.

[jakesteele]

From House:

(The magician/patient dazzles House with a trick he can't explain. House wants to know how he did it but the patient refuses.}

Magician: "Oh, if I explain it becomes mundane, and you lose the actual magic.

House: "What do you mean the actual magic? Think you're actually sawing woman in half? ...Magic is cool. Actual magic is oxymoronic. Might not even be oxy...."

Magician: "The fun is in not knowing."

House: "The fun is in knowing...." (House demonstrates a little magic while saying this and then later demonstrates his own abilities,) "You eat a lot of beets, you have an electric toothbrush, and you sleep less than six hours a night."

Magician: "That's impressive."

House: "The red betamine from the beets stains the plaque deposits on your teeth, which are then swirled by your spinning toothbrush. Your heavy lids and your prematurely aging skin tell me that you're carrying a major sleep debt."

Magician: "That was way cooler before you explained it."

House: "It was meaningless until I explained it."

Magician: "People come to my show because they want a sense of wonder. They want to experience something that they can't explain."

House: "If the wonder's gone when the truth is known, there never was any wonder. You have tularaemia from your rabbits. I've put you on antibiotics, you'll be better in a couple of days. Sorry to spoil the mystery."


:D

I've asked this question before on another site but never really got an answer. The question is, how did Randi bend the spoon and make it break into two pieces when he did the thing with Uri Geller on the Johnny Carson show. I've seen Michael Shermer do it but only with optical angles that make it appear that the spoon is bent; it did not break into two distinct pieces. I want to know how Randi did it, his was way cooler.

The only thing I can think of is like when you take a piece of wire and bend it in the middle and with hands on either end you bend it back and forth quickly, the metal gets hot and malleable. The only problem is that the metal is too hot to touch. So, how's it done, if you know?

[godless dave]

The only thing I can think of is like when you take a piece of wire and bend it in the middle and with hands on either end you bend it back and forth quickly, the metal gets hot and malleable. The only problem is that the metal is too hot to touch. So, how's it done, if you know?

It's done like that. The heat doesn't make it break, the weakening of the metal does.

[m_huber]

I remember that same video that KingMerv00 mentioned: Randi debunked a guy JUST like this on a show. It was that Korean show that had Randi on as an expert. They did the ground work themselves.

I couldn't find it at first, but a little digging turned it up. Sorry, all the narration is in Korean:

9pBe2_tbPUE

It turned out he has a gadget in his shoe that supplies an electric charge through his feet. He manipulated it by moving his foot at appropriate moments. I think it precisely explains what is happening in the OP video. It doesn't take much voltage at all to cause muscle movements, especially if it is being directed to precise locations using acupuncture needles or other means.

The gun trick is pure sleight of hand, doesn't impress me at all.

Yes, this video is another reminder that one should always have a conjurer present when investigating people of this sort.

Ah, this one is ABR -- Already Been Randi'd. I didn't know such devices existed. Thanks for the footwork, Krelnik! Now I'll have something to tell my buddies about this.

I looked at the original video again. It looks like the "chi master" pulls his stomach back before shocking the sound man, which would break the ground and cause just the kind of shock Randi mentions. Nobody is injured by feeling the "chi." It looks more like a reaction to a static electricity shock.

Ok, I'm pretty satisfied that this one is done. Yay for reason!

[KingMerv00]

:D

I've asked this question before on another site but never really got an answer. The question is, how did Randi bend the spoon and make it break into two pieces when he did the thing with Uri Geller on the Johnny Carson show. I've seen Michael Shermer do it but only with optical angles that make it appear that the spoon is bent; it did not break into two distinct pieces. I want to know how Randi did it, his was way cooler.

Heh...I'm pretty familiar with this. At TAM6 we did a world record spoon bend:

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I was lucky enough to help with the prep work along with Teek and about 4 others. To prep the spoons, we pre-bent them all until a stress fracture appeared at the part where the bowl meets the handle. By the time they got into the hands of the audience, the spoons we quite fragile.

(Randi has a forum rule against revealing how magic tricks are done but this is a special case. He has debunked Uri Gellar so many times, I'm sure he won't mind.)

[Cavemonster]

Odd also that they didn't look under the table at what he was actually passing the chopstick through.

Odd that they claimed to be leading an investigation of his electrical properties, but they misdescribed LEDs as color-changing, something anyone with very basic exposure would catch.

Odd that they spent all their time on parlor tricks and didn't seriously investigate his "healing" powers with any real scrutiny.

[Lanzy]

The first part of the video just looked like he knew acupunture and acupressure very well. If you know the right pressure points to stimulate, you can get a physical reaction.

But then acupuncture would have to actually work wouldn't it?

[Toke]

But then acupuncture would have to actually work wouldn't it?

No, knowing where the nerves run and healing people by sticking needles in them are two different things.

[jasonpatterson]

I've asked this question before on another site but never really got an answer. The question is, how did Randi bend the spoon and make it break into two pieces when he did the thing with Uri Geller on the Johnny Carson show. I've seen Michael Shermer do it but only with optical angles that make it appear that the spoon is bent; it did not break into two distinct pieces. I want to know how Randi did it, his was way cooler.


I got in massive trouble for bending and breaking spoons when I was about 8 (1986 or so) because I learned how it was done and wanted to try for myself. I went through about a dozen spoons and forks and attempted to 'bend' butter knife handles as well. Let's just say that the parents were not amused with my attempts.

In the famous Uri Geller on Carson episode, they took great care to make sure that he had no prior contact with the spoons, so that he couldn't prep them. If you take a normal, undamaged spoon and attempt the same thing with it, you're going to be wiggling it for an awfully long time. If you are overly zealous in your preparation, the fracture is obvious (or it just falls apart), if you don't do it enough, the trick doesn't work.