DRINKING IN THE PRESENCE OF CHILDREN DURING HOLIDAY GET-TOGETHERS

[Iamme]

While driving in to work this morning, I was thinking about the up-coming Christmas and New years Holidays. I got thinking about what a bummer it is that my parents are teetotalers. Other families have get togethers where they bring out the booze, and have at it.

Then I started to think this through a little bit. We aren't talking just an adult get-together here. We are talking kids, as well. Little kids.

Is it sort of selfish that one has to feel the need to imbibe during a 'family' celebration? Is it more appropriate to abstain from such imbibing, if kids are around, so that they can see that adults can have a good time without having to drink, and possibly make asses out of themselves? Or, do you think this should be a learning leason for the kids. A reality of life lesson, if you will?

[c4ts]

Drink in the presence of your kids, but tell them they're not allowed to have any until they're 21. Eventually they will get bored and leave you to your depraved orgy of pure sin.

[Upchurch]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a having a little something while the kids are around. I do think there is something wrong with becoming intoxicated while the kids are around. There is a difference, imho.

[c4ts]

The kids don't need to see you acting like a kid.

[rustypouch]

I'm with the funkmeister on this one.

Having a few drinks over the course of the evening is fine, drinking to the point of drunken jackassery is not.

There is a huge different between having a drink and getting drunk.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think there is anything wrong with a having a little something while the kids are around. I do think there is something wrong with becoming intoxicated while the kids are around. There is a difference, imho.
I agree it is a bad thing for parents to become looped. However, there is some benefit to having children see an intoxicated relative at family get-togethers. I mean, seeing Uncle Mel stumbling around, trying to grope his nieces and in general, making an ass of himself was a great lesson to me never to get that drunk.

Every human has a purpose, even if it to serve as a bad example.

[Andonyx]

Any behaviour I have to HIDE from my kids is a behaviour I shouldn't be engaged in in the first place.

Drinking is absolutely fine for some people and part of a normal healthy recreation routine. Letting kids see adults act like adults (that means drinking responsibly) is fine.

Hiding it from them is in a way dishonest, and ultimately pointless.

The only thing I do currently that I am ashamed to do around kids is smoke, and that's because I'm ashamed of the habit period.

Would you not let your kids watch you drive an automobile?

[Leroy]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think there is anything wrong with a having a little something while the kids are around. I do think there is something wrong with becoming intoxicated while the kids are around. There is a difference, imho.

I agree.

[Crossbow]

I do not have any children, but if I did then I would avoid drinking in front of them since I feel that it sets such a bad example.

After they are 21, then I would not mind drinking with them.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Crossbow
I do not have any children, but if I did then I would avoid drinking in front of them since I feel that it sets such a bad example.

After they are 21, then I would not mind drinking with them.

21!?

Drinking is that much more serious then getting married, having kids, joining the armed services and being shot and killed?

Seriously - why 21?

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Darat


21!?

Drinking is that much more serious then getting married, having kids, joining the armed services and being shot and killed?

Seriously - why 21?

Well because in my state it is illegal for people under 21 to drink, and
it is illegal for people over 21 to furnish those under 21 with alcohol.

I think that when the parents do illegal activities in front of their children it sets a bad example.

OK now?

[roger]

My parents both drank in front of me (socially, not boozing it up) and allowed me to drink (just a few sips) for as long as I canremember. I certainly remember having a sip of my father's beer when I was very young, and getting served wine at special meals. I'm talking age 4 or so.

The example being set was booze is no big deal as long as you are responsible about it, nothing you have to sneak around to get, and that we should exercise common sense, not mindlessly follow laws that meddle in your personal lives.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Well because in my state it is illegal for people under 21 to drink, and
it is illegal for people over 21 to furnish those under 21 with alcohol.

I think that when the parents do illegal activities in front of their children it sets a bad example.

OK now?

No.

Are you under 21?

[Ladewig]

I think demonstrating to the kids that it is possible and approriate to have one drink and stop will be more useful than never drinking in front of them.

Drinking is that much more serious then getting married, having kids, joining the armed services and being shot and killed?

The drinking age in the U.S. used to be decided by each state (ahh, those nostalgic days of states' rights). Then the auto insurance lobby realized that 18, 19, and 20-year-olds that drink and drive cost them a great deal of money. The lobby then asked congress to step in a raise the age limit to 21. Of course, the federal government has no power to pass laws directly regulating something like drinking age, so they said to each state, "those of you who want to continue to receive federal highway funds will raise the age to 21." One by one, the states toed the line. Wyoming became the last state to raise its drinking age to 21 on July 1, 1998.


See: National Minimum Purchase Age Act of 1984

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Darat
21!?

Drinking is that much more serious then getting married, having kids, joining the armed services and being shot and killed?

Seriously - why 21?
They actually did lower it during the Viet Nam war (for exactly the reasons you cite), but the enormous spike in drunk-driving deaths by teenagers caused them to raise it again.

This is probalbly the subject for a separated thread, but I would say that the difference has to do with the ability to make good decisions. As cannon fodder, no decisions have to be made by an 18-year-old.

[geni]

I still can't see what anyone hopes to atchive by not drinking in frount of thier children. It is as good a way as any of showing the impotant difference between drinking and getting plastered.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Well because in my state it is illegal for people under 21 to drink, and
it is illegal for people over 21 to furnish those under 21 with alcohol.

I think that when the parents do illegal activities in front of their children it sets a bad example.

OK now?

Sorry - should have looked at your location and realised you were in the USA.

Can you clear one thing up for me - is it illegal for people to drink until they are 21 or is it just illegal for them to buy alcohol and get served in a public bar until they are 21?

[Darat]

Originally posted by Tricky

They actually did lower it during the Viet Nam war (for exactly the reasons you cite), but the enormous spike in drunk-driving deaths by teenagers caused them to raise it again.

This is probalbly the subject for a separated thread, but I would say that the difference has to do with the ability to make good decisions. As cannon fodder, no decisions have to be made by an 18-year-old.

Apart from deciding whether to be cannon fodder or not :)

[Darat]

Originally posted by geni
I still can't see what anyone hopes to atchive by not drinking in frount of thier children. It is as good a way as any of showing the impotant difference between drinking and getting plastered.

There isn't any difference - all drink is bad, it is sinful, it is terrible you will die and kill millions if you as much as drink a drop of the devil's brew........ sorry my Methodist upbringing flooded back for a moment.

As a more serious point I was brought up to consider drinking was terrible, that there was no such thing as “moderation” so someone having one drink or a drunk collapsed in the gutter were all the same. (I even won the prize one year at junior school for the best essay on “Why the Demon Drink is evil”.)

Since then I have drank and often drank until drunk as youngster. Yet even today I have some remnants of my religious upbringing in that I consider anyone who drinks regularly e.g. has one alcoholic drink a week a borderline alcoholic ;)

[Iamme]

O.k., there are many of you who think it is O.K. as long as the adults have a few throughout the evening and can handle it. Now...what if Uncle Bob and Aunt Kaye start having a few too many? THEN what?! Often times, people will already be pretty smashed the time anyone has the nerve to suggest to them that they are getting smashed. Do the hosts say, "Uhhh...Bob and Kaye...I think you've had enough now?"...as they start laughing it up, mocking the hosts by saying, "chuckle, chuckle, chuckle (envision Foster Brooks)....Bob and Kaye...I think you've had enough now. Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle."

Don't a lot of people drink in the first place so that they can get a buzz on? To loosen up? And if they have an attitude in their life that "Anything worth doing, is worth doing to excess" (I had a guy tell me this once, and we both got a good laugh out of it. Had to do with smoking.)...wouldn't you suppose that perhaps ONE of the guests (or more) just might decide that 3 drinks wasn't quite enough?

If you don't allow drinking, you don't run the risk of this, or run the risk of having some feud develop during festivities. For any of you barflys out there: Ever go into a bar sober and stay that way? It is quite a weird feeling being around these people who are laughing it up over the dumbest things, while they lean on and breathe on you and make YOU out to be the buffoon.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Darat

Sorry - should have looked at your location and realised you were in the USA.

Can you clear one thing up for me - is it illegal for people to drink until they are 21 or is it just illegal for them to buy alcohol and get served in a public bar until they are 21?
Technically, it is illegal for miinors to drink. Adults can be charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" by providing them with alcohol. In practice, it rarely happens.

Originally posted by Darat
Apart from deciding whether to be cannon fodder or not.

During the Viet Nam era, even this wasn't necessarily up to the minor. You could be drafted and forced into the army.
Originally posted by Darat
Yet even today I have some remnants of my religious upbringing in that I consider anyone who drinks regularly e.g. has one alcoholic drink a week a borderline alcoholic.

The clinical definition of an alcoholic is, "Someone who drinks more than their doctor."

[Ladewig]

The clinical definition of an alcoholic is, "Someone who drinks more than their doctor."


I would change that to "people who admit to drinking more than their doctors admit to drinking."

[Ladewig]

Can you clear one thing up for me - is it illegal for people to drink until they are 21 or is it just illegal for them to buy alcohol and get served in a public bar until they are 21?

Not only is it illegal for them to consume, possess, or purchase alcohol, it is illegal for them to sell alcohol. It is somewhat strange to see an adult purchase beer in a supermarket and have the 19-year-old check-out clerk ask the purchaser to drag the beer across the UPC laser scanner.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Ladewig


Not only is it illegal for them to consume, possess, or purchase alcohol, it is illegal for them to sell alcohol. It is somewhat strange to see an adult purchase beer in a supermarket and have the 19-year-old check-out clerk ask the purchaser to drag the beer across the UPC laser scanner.
So, it's illegal for a 20-year-old to enjoy, say, a glass of wine with a meal? :confused:

[Ove]

As a more serious point I was brought up to consider drinking was terrible, that there was no such thing as “moderation” so someone having one drink or a drunk collapsed in the gutter were all the same. (I even won the prize one year at junior school for the best essay on “Why the Demon Drink is evil”.)

Ahhhh, "The fatal glass of beer" :D

Don't a lot of people drink in the first place so that they can get a buzz on? To loosen up? And if they have an attitude in their life that "Anything worth doing, is worth doing to excess" (I had a guy tell me this once, and we both got a good laugh out of it. Had to do with smoking.)...wouldn't you suppose that perhaps ONE of the guests (or more) just might decide that 3 drinks wasn't quite enough?

Most people i know drink alcohol because they LIKE it, i mean they like the taste of it. That yo get drunk is a side effect that only happens if you drink too much.

If you don't allow drinking, you don't run the risk of this, or run the risk of having some feud develop during festivities. For any of you barflys out there: Ever go into a bar sober and stay that way? It is quite a weird feeling being around these people who are laughing it up over the dumbest things, while they lean on and breathe on you and make YOU out to be the buffoon.

You sound like an old record advertixing AA.;)

But seriously, if you have to get drunk every time you touch booze than i really really pity you. Beer/wine to me is something that tastes good and i drink it often, the wine enhances my meal and the beer(one pint) adds enjoyment to my weekly pub visit. Once or twice a year at a party i gets drunk but mostly i dont, i know how i feel the day after (hey i'm not 18 anymore). And YES my kids have seen me slightly drunk.

Strangely we have NEVER had the episodes with Aunt Marge/Uncle Bob or Cousin Dave vomiting all over but i put that down to the fact that we normally drink Wine or beer and very rarely Gin-Whiskey-Rhum etc. You just don't get that drunk if you stay with beer.

Our children are normally introdyced to alcohol around 15. On my daughters scool we have held a meeting for all the parents and put down some "rules" for parties. There MUST allways be an adult present. The parents decide if there are to be a´lcohol or not. If they allow it it is max TWO drinks pr teenager (and it is checked). Theese rules have been working fine. The legal age for buying alcohol in Denmark is 16 but there are no rules about letting teenagers drink.

Yes we do have problems with senseless drunk teenagers now and then but i believe that that must be the responsibility of the parents. You got to raise your children properly and to teach them about alcohol. You DONT do that by forbidding them to touch the stuff, if you really think that you can forbid them to drink you are being seriously naive.:rolleyes:

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Iamme
O.k., there are many of you who think it is O.K. as long as the adults have a few throughout the evening and can handle it. Now...what if Uncle Bob and Aunt Kaye start having a few too many? THEN what?!

What's wrong with Uncle Bob and Auntie Kaye? are they alcoholics? If they can't act 'reasonably' in front of the kids, why ask them to the party in the first place?
Seriously, I'd never invite someone to my house in I knew they were going to upset me and mine.........even if they are family. Perhaps I'm fortunate that none of mine are that selfish.

If you don't allow drinking, you don't run the risk of this, or run the risk of having some feud develop during festivities.

I don't drink. My family does. My friends do. I (now) always have some alcohol ready to serve (spirits and wine), and I would consider myself a bad host if I didn't have some to offer.

For any of you barflys out there: Ever go into a bar sober and stay that way? It is quite a weird feeling being around these people who are laughing it up over the dumbest things, while they lean on and breathe on you and make YOU out to be the buffoon.

I often go into pubs with friends. My girlfriend and I go to a (place with a) bar to socialise once or twice a week. I don't feel weird. No one takes the mick out of me. Perhaps you just go to the wrong places with the wrong people


Peter

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Andonyx


No.

Are you under 21?

I am 41.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Crossbow


I am 41.

But don't you wish you were? :D

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Darat


Sorry - should have looked at your location and realised you were in the USA.

Can you clear one thing up for me - is it illegal for people to drink until they are 21 or is it just illegal for them to buy alcohol and get served in a public bar until they are 21?

In my area,

It is illegal for those over 21 to provide those under 21 with alcoholic beverages.
This includes buying alcohol for those under 21, selling alcohol to those under 21, and giving those under 21 alcohol for free.

It is also illegal for those under 21 to consume alcohol.
Even if the alcohol was legally purchased by someone over 21, it is still illegal for those under 21 to consume it. If someone under 21 were to find a bottle of booze in a trash bin, it would be illegal for them to consume it. If someone under 21 were to make their own beer, wine, liquor, etc., then it would still be illegal for them to consume it.

I hope this clears things up!

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Graham


But don't you wish you were? :D

I am sorry, but just what are you talking about?

[Darat]

Originally posted by Crossbow


In my area,

It is illegal for those over 21 to provide those under 21 with alcoholic beverages.
This includes buying alcohol for those under 21, selling alcohol to those under 21, and giving those under 21 alcohol for free.

It is also illegal for those under 21 to consume alcohol.
Even if the alcohol was legally purchased by someone over 21, it is still illegal for those under 21 to consume it. If someone under 21 were to find a bottle of booze in a trash bin, it would be illegal for them to consume it. If someone under 21 were to make their own beer, wine, liquor, etc., then it would still be illegal for them to consume it.

I hope this clears things up!

Cheers! Have to say I find this total prohibition amazing especially in a country so known for it's "freedoms".

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Darat


Cheers! Have to say I find this total prohibition amazing especially in a country so known for it's "freedoms".

True enough!

The USA has always had a strange attitude towards alcohol. We actually had national prohibition for a while (but there were many loop-holes in the law), then the law was repealled, but many states still had prohibition rules.

Ugh!

[daenku32]

It's wrong if you don't share..

At least that's what I always tell my kids.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Crossbow


I am 41.

What I don't understand then is what you are doing that is a bad example.

You are not engaging in illegal activity when you drink, in front of your children or otherwise.

No one has suggested you give alcohol to the children.

So unless you think drinking is inherently wrong, in which case, why do you do it?, what is it that is setting a bad example?

Again, I ask the question, do you not let your children see you drive?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Andonyx


What I don't understand then is what you are doing that is a bad example.

You are not engaging in illegal activity when you drink, in front of your children or otherwise.

No one has suggested you give alcohol to the children.

So unless you think drinking is inherently wrong, in which case, why do you do it?, what is it that is setting a bad example?

Again, I ask the question, do you not let your children see you drive? Interesting point. There are a number of "adult" activities that are generally agreed to be neither illegal per se nor inherently wrong but which should not be engaged in by children. Some of those activities, like driving, we think it's OK for adults to engage in in front of kids. Others, like having sexual intercourse, we think adults shouldn't engage in in front of kids. In the ordinary public mentality, consuming alcohol falls somewhere in the middle, depending on the circumstances. Moderate consumption is closer to the "driving" end of the spectrum. Excessive consumption is probably closer to the "having sex" end of the spectrum.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Andonyx


What I don't understand then is what you are doing that is a bad example.

You are not engaging in illegal activity when you drink, in front of your children or otherwise.

No one has suggested you give alcohol to the children.

So unless you think drinking is inherently wrong, in which case, why do you do it?, what is it that is setting a bad example?

Again, I ask the question, do you not let your children see you drive?

Excuse me, but I never said that it is illegal for those over 21 to drink in front of children; and if you still think that I did say such a thing, then I suggest that you read my postings on this subject.

There are any number of activities that are not illegal but one should not do in front of children because it sets such a bad example. You said so yourself when it came to smoking, which is a legal activity.

If I had children, I would not allow them to drink and in order to set a good example I would not drink in front of them.

As for driving, that is a practical and necessary skill which is needed by most adults, therefore I would have no problem if they saw me drive. However, I would not drive if my license had expired, the vehicle was unsafe, and so on. Because even if one does so without incident, then it sets a bad example.

Is that clear now?

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Others, like having sexual intercourse, we think adults shouldn't engage in front of kids. In the ordinary public mentality, consuming alcohol falls somewhere in the middle, depending on the circumstances.

Ahaha!!!!

You walked right into my trap!!!!

I knew, absolutely knew sombody would bring up having sex in front of children, and I was prepared.

I don't have sex in front of children not because it's wrong, and not because they are children. I don't have sex in front of adults either. I only have sex in front of my partner (and sometimes not even then!) because it's private.

That is a false analogy.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Crossbow

If I had children, I would not allow them to drink and in order to set a good example I would not drink in front of them.


I am having trouble understanding how drinking in front of children exemplifies anything _bad_ in the first place.

Unless you are religious or something, drinking alcohol is not bad. It just is something that people do when they are older. Will you keep your kids from drinking when they get old enough to do so?

The example of driving is reasonable here. It is something that adults do that children should not be doing because they are not old enough to be able to do it responsibly.

The comparison to driving with an expired license or an unsafe car is silly. These are things that adults _should not be doing in the first place_! You can't compare that to social drinking.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Excuse me, but I never said that it is illegal for those over 21 to drink in front of children; and if you still think that I did say such a thing, then I suggest that you read my postings on this subject.



No you seemed to say that it sets a bad example because it is illegal for the children to drink.

I would give children the benefit of the doubt that they understand that it is illegal for them to drink and not illegal for you to drink.

What I think is folley is your idea that you should not engage in anything in front of the kids that they cannot engage in. (And please I'm trying to keep this on an academic level, I in no way mean to impugn you or your parenting skills, I'm sure you're an excellent parent.) What I'm suggesting is that while you may have a gut or intuitive instinct to not drink in front of your kids, there is no logical reason to abstain, and that it stems from a sense of dislike for the idea of drinking, deserved or not.

Again you posed a false analogy when you suggested that you would not drive on a suspended license. Of course not, bad example or otherwise, it's illegal.

But drinking is not illegal for you, and I do not see how engaging in a legal activity, in a responsible manner is a bad example for anyone. I daresay that letting children see that alcohol can be enjoyed in a safe and healthy manner is a good example, and that sending the message that alcohol is something you don't do in nice company is more harmful.

Certainly as a child if my parents had only drank when I was not around I would have been far far more curious about it than I was.


There are any number of activities that are not illegal but one should not do in front of children because it sets such a bad example. You said so yourself when it came to smoking, which is a legal activity.

Again, you are really only supporting my point. I said in my prior post that I don't smoke around children not because they are children but because I am ashamed of the habit period. I also don't smoke around my family, or my friend's family out of respect. It's a filthy habit that I do not believe anyone should engage in at any age. Legality by age has aboslutely nothing to do with it.

So again, I have to ask, unless you think there is something inherently wrong with drinking itself, how does legally and responsibly imbibing set a bad example for children?

[Andonyx]

Can I also mention that I find having this discussion with Crossbow's avatar is hysterical.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Andonyx


Ahaha!!!!

You walked right into my trap!!!!

I knew, absolutely knew sombody would bring up having sex in front of children, and I was prepared.

I don't have sex in front of children not because it's wrong, and not because they are children. I don't have sex in front of adults either. I only have sex in front of my partner (and sometimes not even then!) because it's private.

That is a false analogy. I didn't analogize having sex in front of children to driving in front of children. On the contrary, I placed them on opposite ends of a scale, with drinking somewhat removed from either, due to the different nature of those activities. And from an objective point of view, you don't have sex solely in front of your partner because it's private; it is private because you only do it in front of your partner.

Some people (http://edition.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9902/10/annabel.chong) do have sex in front of many other adults under circumstances that are neither illegal nor clearly immoral, although under different circumstances (http://www.dispatch.co.za/1998/12/22/easterncape/COUPLES.HTM) this is viewed as antisocial behavior and repressed by law. I hesitate to say that sex is inherently private; there seem to be many factors (both objective and subjective) involved in a determination of when it should be and when it needn't be. And isn't that also true of the present discussion regarding drinking in front of children? Identifying and weighing those factors is, I think, precisely what we're attempting to do in this case.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I didn't analogize having sex in front of children to driving in front of children. On the contrary, I placed them on opposite ends of a scale, with drinking somewhat removed from either, due to the different nature of those activities.



I wasn't suggesting you did. I was suggesting you tried to compare drinking in front of the children to a scale that has sex in front of kids on it. I believe your scale is not a correct analogy to drinking in front of kids, repsonsibly or otherwise. One is, to my mind, an inherently social activity, the other is an inherently private activity.

Therefore you have two scales, one involves not drinking at all, to making an ass out of yourself in front of kids while drunk. The other goes from Driving to having sex in front of the kids. I believe that analogy is false.

And isn't that also true of the present discussion regarding drinking in front of children? Identifying and weighing those factors is, I think, precisely what we're attempting to do in this case.

To an extent yes that is what we are trying to determine. But from a social norms stand point. I think the vast majority of people would say sex is a private, not public activity, and I also believe the same majority of people would say the reverse about drinking. After all, I think one of the signs of a drinking problem is people who hide their drinking, drink alone, or only drink with a drinking buddy in private.

And if we're trying to decide how public our drinking should be I have yet to hear a cogent argument on why responsible levels of adult drinking should be limited to any audience.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Andonyx
...

So again, I have to ask, unless you think there is something inherently wrong with drinking itself, how does legally and responsibly imbibing set a bad example for children?

Allow me to address this one point since it seems to be the focus of your postings on this subject.

If I were a parent, then I would not permit my children to drink until they are 21.

And in order to set a good example of abstinence, then I would not drink in front of them. I expect that I would still drink now and then, but I would make sure not to do so in front of them.

Further, my family does have a history of alcoholism and I have experienced first hand just how destructive it can be, therefore I do feel compelled to set a good example.

By the way, the 'Scotty' character never married nor had any children.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Allow me to address this one point since it seems to be the focus of your postings on this subject.

If I were a parent, then I would not permit my children to drink until they are 21.

And in order to set a good example of abstinence, then I would not drink in front of them.[/I]

Try this:

"If I were a parent, then I would not permit my children to drive until they are 16.

And in order to set a good example of not driving, then I would not drive in front of them."

If your concern is about alcoholism running in your family, why do you risk drinking yourself?

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Crossbow




Further, my family does have a history of alcoholism and I have experienced first hand just how destructive it can be, therefore I do feel compelled to set a good example.



Well, that kinda answers the issue then. You essentially do have a problem with drinking. And it sounds like it's not something you really wanna see your kids do even as adults although you won't stop them.

Which leaves me with my last question. If it's important to set a good example, why would you drink at all? You say you will still ocassionally drink, but not in front of the kids. Does that make what you're doing a good example?

What if you're kids say walked in on you drinking, or you let it slip that you had drinks with the neighbors last night? Do you lie? Do you tell the kids what you did was wrong?

How do you explain to the kids later that you hide your drinking from them? ( I realize that phrasing sounds loaded, like he has a problem, I don't mean to use that but I can't phrase it better at the moment.)

Ultimately I would have to respect your right to parent as you see fit. And I don't think you're doing anything wrong certainly. I just can't see the logic myself.

It just seems to me that in my logic anything I think would be a bad example to do in front of the kids I would not do at all. I feel like drinking, but not in front of them is essentially sneaking around to do the drinking.

My parents made it very celar that if they suspected me of boozing under-age it would be the end of life as I knew it. But they and the rest of the family drank around me all the time. And when I was old enough I joined them.

Why heck...Now I can't get enough of the stuff. I can't go a day without it! And it never did me any harm.

[LW]

Originally posted by Ove

Most people i know drink alcohol because they LIKE it, i mean they like the taste of it. That yo get drunk is a side effect that only happens if you drink too much.

I know people like that, too, and I'm actually one of them.

However, I also know quite a lot people who drink to get drunk.

I also know a few people who seem to have graduated from drinking to get drunk into the next stage that is drinking to get hangover. At least that seems to be the simplest explanation for their habit of drinking so large amounts of vodka in so short time that they pass out in an hour or at most two.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Try this:

"If I were a parent, then I would not permit my children to drive until they are 16.

And in order to set a good example of not driving, then I would not drive in front of them."

If your concern is about alcoholism running in your family, why do you risk drinking yourself?

Pardon me, but you are sounding rather stupid.

In the first place, if you are serious about your driving comments, then I suggest that you stop driving in front of children.
By the same token, since it is illegal for children to work you should quit your job.
Since it is illegal for children to vote, then you should stop voting.
Since it is illegal for children to serve in the military, then if you are in the military you should leave.
Since it is illegal for children to marry, then you should get divorced.
Since it is illegal ... (get the point?).
If you ask me, and you did, driving, working, voting, etc., comes under the heading of taking care of one's children, and in case it slipped your notice, parents are supposed to take care of their children.

In the second place, I already posted in another thread that I only drink two or three times a year and there have been times when I have gone for years in-between drinks. Thus, it is safe to say that I do not have a problem with alcoholism.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Pardon me, but you are sounding rather stupid.


I agree it sounds stupid. But it is the argument you made in the post I responded to! Except you had alcohol in it. Special pleading, here?


In the first place, if you are serious about your driving comments, then I suggest that you stop driving in front of children.
By the same token, since it is illegal for children to work you should quit your job.
Since it is illegal for children to vote, then you should stop voting.
Since it is illegal for children to serve in the military, then if you are in the military you should leave.
Since it is illegal for children to marry, then you should get divorced.
Since it is illegal ... (get the point?).


Add one more to your list:

Since it is illegal for children to drink, you should not drink in front of children. It sets a bad example.

Your claim, dude, not mine.



If you ask me, and you did, driving, working, voting, etc., comes under the heading of taking care of one's children, and in case it slipped your notice, parents are supposed to take care of their children.


Hey, if kids have to be expected to find rides to get where they are going, so can you, dude.


In the second place, I already posted in another thread that I only drink two or three times a year and there have been times when I have gone for years in-between drinks. Thus, it is safe to say that I do not have a problem with alcoholism.

Maybe your kids only want to have a glass of wine at christmas? Wouldn't be a problem with alcoholism.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


I agree it sounds stupid. But it is the argument you made in the post I responded to! Except you had alcohol in it. Special pleading, here?



Add one more to your list:

Since it is illegal for children to drink, you should not drink in front of children. It sets a bad example.

Your claim, dude, not mine.




Hey, if kids have to be expected to find rides to get where they are going, so can you, dude.



Maybe your kids only want to have a glass of wine at christmas? Wouldn't be a problem with alcoholism.

Wow man you are really something!

I ask that you actually read the posts you are responding to as opposed to writing a post while you are still feeling fired up.

Essentially my original post said, and I still stand by it:

If had children,
then I would not drink in front of them.
After they turned 21, then I may drink with them.

I do not know why you have such a problem with that but you sure do. If you want to drink a bit in front of your children, then do let me stop you.
If you want to furnish your children some alcohol on special occasions, then do not let me stop you.
I was only speaking for myself (my posts on this topic always used the first-person pronoun), I was not trying to tell everyone else what to do.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Andonyx


Well, that kinda answers the issue then. You essentially do have a problem with drinking. And it sounds like it's not something you really wanna see your kids do even as adults although you won't stop them.

Which leaves me with my last question. If it's important to set a good example, why would you drink at all? You say you will still ocassionally drink, but not in front of the kids. Does that make what you're doing a good example?

What if you're kids say walked in on you drinking, or you let it slip that you had drinks with the neighbors last night? Do you lie? Do you tell the kids what you did was wrong?

How do you explain to the kids later that you hide your drinking from them? ( I realize that phrasing sounds loaded, like he has a problem, I don't mean to use that but I can't phrase it better at the moment.)

Ultimately I would have to respect your right to parent as you see fit. And I don't think you're doing anything wrong certainly. I just can't see the logic myself.

It just seems to me that in my logic anything I think would be a bad example to do in front of the kids I would not do at all. I feel like drinking, but not in front of them is essentially sneaking around to do the drinking.

My parents made it very celar that if they suspected me of boozing under-age it would be the end of life as I knew it. But they and the rest of the family drank around me all the time. And when I was old enough I joined them.

Why heck...Now I can't get enough of the stuff. I can't go a day without it! And it never did me any harm.

I do not have any idea of why you get so twisted up about this issue, but here goes.

If it is really is such a problem drinking while having kids, then I very well may give up drinking all together until they were 21. Let me see, I take about 3 drinks per year now, so if had say four kids, each two years apart, then that means I would give up 84 drinks over 28 years.

Yeah, I think I could manage that. In fact, I doubt that I would even miss it.

By the way, I would not lie to my kids if they caught me drinking because that such a thing would be counter-productive.

[Dragon]

(bemused Brit pops his head around the door)
Why do you Americans consider 18, 19 and 20-year olds to be minors? Are they not responsible for their own actions if they, say, commit a crime. Can they not vote? Can they not hold a driving licence? Can they not legally marry and have children of their own? Can they not join the armed forces and fight and die for their country?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Dragon
(bemused Brit pops his head around the door)
Why do you Americans consider 18, 19 and 20-year olds to be minors? Are they not responsible for their own actions if they, say, commit a crime. Can they not vote? Can they not hold a driving licence? Can they not legally marry and have children of their own? Can they not join the armed forces and fight and die for their country?
1) voting age is 18.
2) yes, they can hold a driver's license. Some states are moving towards "graduated licenses" in which new license holders gain privileges as they get older and more experienced. This is driven by insurance industry statistics.
3) a)Yes, they can marry. Specific ages vary from state to state.
3) b) having children is a matter of biology, not law.
4) Yes, they can join the armed forces, fight and die for their country.

[jimmygun]

When my kids were little I quit drinking totally for December and January. New kids, new house and new jobs meant there wasn't a lot of money to begin with so quitting saved me a bundle over the holidays, kept me from drinking and driving and allowed me to focus on what was important to me. I still went to parties, had people over and enjoyed myself.

As soon as January was over I dove back into the bottle with a vengence, only to reappear ten months later!:D

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

1) voting age is 18.
2) yes, they can hold a driver's license. Some states are moving towards "graduated licenses" in which new license holders gain privileges as they get older and more experienced. This is driven by insurance industry statistics.
3) a)Yes, they can marry. Specific ages vary from state to state.
3) b) having children is a matter of biology, not law.
4) Yes, they can join the armed forces, fight and die for their country. Just to clarify for Dragon's benefit, 18 remains the age of majority in general matters, i.e. the age at which people are entitled to the management of their own affairs.

For almost the first two centuries of the country's existence, the minimum voting age was 21. It was lowered to 18 in 1971 by the ratification of the 26th Amendment to the Constitution.

To an extent, the legal drinking age is the product of a crude but context-specific cost-benefit analysis, which explains why the drinking age appears to bear no relationship to the age at which people are allowed to marry, drive, enter into contracts or enlist in the armed forces. The younger the person, the greater the social costs associated with alcohol consumption (in terms of risk of dependency, traffic fatalities and many other things). Earlier this year, a National Academy of Sciences study estimated the net economic costs to the country of drinking by under-21s at $53 billion.

I would infer that the federal government considers that 21 is roughly the age at which the overall social advantages, both tangible and intangible (for example, in terms of civil liberties), of allowing the average person to drink begin to outweigh the social disadvantages of allowing him to drink.

[daenku32]

We need a Constitutional amendment so that 18 year olds can drink.

[geni]

Originally posted by daenku32
We need a Constitutional amendment so that 18 year olds can drink.

Why? They can just come and vist the UK and drink here.:)

[Dragon]

Thanks for the replies -

From my perspective the US does seem to be in "nanny state" territory on this issue (and I see a lot of alcohol related disorder and crime, much of it involving young people).

Personally I'm quite looking forward to my son buying me a pint next year when he turns 18. We have, I hope, instilled a sensible attitude to alcohol in our kids. They have often had a glass of wine (or a beer) with a family meal or on special occasions. This is quite legal here, even though the minumum age in pubs is 18.

What do our resident libertarians think of the u21 alcohol restrictions in the US?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Dragon
Personally I'm quite looking forward to my son buying me a pint next year when he turns 18.As well you should.

Although with all the money American society saves by maintaining the drinking age at 21, Americans can afford to buy each other more pints now.

:D

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Dragon
Thanks for the replies -

From my perspective the US does seem to be in "nanny state" territory on this issue (and I see a lot of alcohol related disorder and crime, much of it involving young people).

Personally I'm quite looking forward to my son buying me a pint next year when he turns 18. We have, I hope, instilled a sensible attitude to alcohol in our kids. They have often had a glass of wine (or a beer) with a family meal or on special occasions. This is quite legal here, even though the minumum age in pubs is 18.

What do our resident libertarians think of the u21 alcohol restrictions in the US?

I'm not a libertarian, but I guess I'm libertarian on this issue.

I think there are two factors involved:

1. I get annoyed any time congress essentially legislates something to protect us from ourselves. Yes. I understand that practically speaking unecessary healthcare costs from preventible injury and illness are huge but you can take that logic to any extreme and deny us the ability to drive without professional drivers, or use cars without helmets etc.

I hate it even more when the Federal Government uses its money granting to bully states into doing what they want even though it's constitutionally a matter of states rights. They do this in public schools with drug education and abstinence programs all the time. So I think the age should be 18. However I also think the driving age should be higher because those little sh**s should not be behind the wheel...that's another topic.

2. It's also a social issue. And some people use this logic about guns, and I'm not a gun guy, but in this case it makes sense. When something that is potentially hazardous is introduced into your sphere of awarenes in a safe responsible manner early, I think the sense of respect and discipline associated with its use stays with you.

I've only been to the uK a bit but even when I went there as a teenager, it seemed like alcohol played much less of a focus in the lives of their youth because it was de-mystified and unhidden. Here there's an adult allure to alcohol that makes underages curious, and yet they have no idea how to handle it.

I'm not a sociologist so perhaps that's just my skewed impression.

[INRM]

Originally posted by Tricky

I agree it is a bad thing for parents to become looped. However, there is some benefit to having children see an intoxicated relative at family get-togethers. I mean, seeing Uncle Mel stumbling around, trying to grope his nieces and in general, making an ass of himself was a great lesson to me never to get that drunk.

Every human has a purpose, even if it to serve as a bad example.

You know, I like you more and more every time I read your posts :D

I agree with you here... watching a f*cked up relative get all silly, stupid, and potentially nasty and stupid, and act like a Courvoisier-man (tm) in front of them all will be a lesson to stay sober...

-INRM
P.S. To anyone who wants to know what a Courvoisier Man is, just ask. (Either reply, or PM me).

[epepke]

I've got an idea.

Let's protect kids from ever seeing drunk people. Let's also protect them from any knowledge of sex. Let's also protect them from death: no pets, and Gramma just gwine up to hebbin'. Let's just keep them all in a nice little hygenic box and send them to Montessori schools and teach them to play the violin, and then they will be just perfect child-bots until they are 18.

Excuse me, but the lessons I got as a youngster while seeing my elders in various stages of inebretude stand out as some of the most important lessons in life that I have ever had.

[Garrette]

Tricky

As cannon fodder, no decisions have to be made by an 18-year-old.

Sorry for the temporary hijack.

Tricky, I can't tell if you're serious or not on this. If so, then you are mistaken, at least in the US military.

18 year olds are called upon to make decisions, though it's usually when they're 19 or 20.

Sometimes the decision is as simple as : "Do I shoot that Iraqi approaching my vehicle or not?"

This is not a trivial thing and is not a decision for a dunderhead.

Young soldiers frequently make decisions with large political ramifications.

[Agammamon]

I think it's absolutely essential that you drink in front of children. Where else are they going to learn how to drink responsibly - from their peers?
Intoxicated behaviors are learned as much as innate. Set and setting are the key. Teach them when to say when by showing them an example.

[zultr]

Originally posted by Andonyx


I knew, absolutely knew sombody would bring up having sex in front of children, and I was prepared.

I don't have sex in front of children not because it's wrong, and not because they are children. I don't have sex in front of adults either. I only have sex in front of my partner (and sometimes not even then!) because it's private.

That is a false analogy.

Actually, I was going to specifically mention fellatio, but I guess that was covered under the general umbrella of the term. More to the point, what you originally said was that “any behaviour I have to HIDE from my kids is a behaviour I shouldn't be engaged in in the first place.” I disagree with this very broad statement, as you ended up doing yourself by creating an exception for private acts. Privacy is generally a subjective term depending on the person, and is unrelated to the inherent "rightness" or "wrongness" (also subjective terms) of particular act. If others performed sexual acts in front of children because they didn't believe it a private act, would you think it was ok? A more complete exception would be for subjective elements like privacy and other judgment calls based on what is appropriate for their age.

Regarding drinking, since it is a major part of most cultures and carries significant risk, I believe it is nothing to hide – the more children learn about it, the better they’ll be able to handle it. It is my understanding that many European countries allow you to drink at 16, but don't allow you to drive until 18 (as well as prohibit admission to bars until 18). This seems to make more sense, because in the U.S., we give car keys to kids when they're 16 1/2, and tease them with the prospects of drinking for 4 1/2 years and thereby turn it into some glamorous activity, just out of reach of those on the cusp of adulthood. Consequently, kids who can get it score coolness points with peers, they learn to binge drink (they can't legally keep it, so they ingest all of it when they have it), and increase their risk of dying in a drunken car accident. We’ve created a cultural phenomenon in this country of teenagers going through well established rites based on alcohol abuse. They're bombarded with sexy images in advertising and peer pressure that equates drinking, getting drunk and acting irresponsibly with maturity.

I think if we provided a responsible example for them and allowed them to drink earlier, children would understand alcohol's effects and it would lessen the sense of novelty regarding drinking, thereby eliminating the element of "coolness" for those who do drink. There would be less binge drinking, alcohol abuse, and drunk driving deaths. Plus, most kids don't like the taste of beer, wine, or whiskey anyway, so it would further lessen the magic if they first experienced it in the controlled environment of their homes with adults, instead of under a bridge or the woods with a dozen kids trying to get drunk.

[Ove]

I think if we provided a responsible example for them and allowed them to drink earlier, children would understand alcohol's effects and it would lessen the sense of novelty regarding drinking, thereby eliminating the element of "coolness" for those who do drink. There would be less binge drinking, alcohol abuse, and drunk driving deaths. Plus, most kids don't like the taste of beer, wine, or whiskey anyway, so it would further lessen the magic if they first experienced it in the controlled environment of their homes with adults, instead of under a bridge or the woods with a dozen kids trying to get drunk.

This is precisely the way it has been working over here for years, wonderfull formulated.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

By the way, I would not lie to my kids if they caught me drinking because that such a thing would be counter-productive.

But can't you see that what you are doing is making alcohol more "exiting" and "mysterius" and "forbidden" to your kids? I fully understand that someone that has experienced alcoholism close (relative??), has very difficult with relating to alcohol but you are NOT doing your children a favour. Prohibition didn't work in USA why do you think it'll work in your family?

[Ove]

I also know a few people who seem to have graduated from drinking to get drunk into the next stage that is drinking to get hangover. At least that seems to be the simplest explanation for their habit of drinking so large amounts of vodka in so short time that they pass out in an hour or at most two.

I know a lot like that too, we call them "Sweedes".:D :D

Sweden has a alcohol politic that is even more restrictive than USA, you can only buy alcohol in goverment regulated shops and it costs a fortune so consequently the Danish cities that has connection to Sweden floods with senseless drunk Swedes every summer. Ohh well perhaps EU can change that........ Then again perhaps not.;)

[Leroy]

Originally posted by geni
I still can't see what anyone hopes to atchive by not drinking in frount of thier children. It is as good a way as any of showing the impotant difference between drinking and getting plastered.

Do you have teenagers?

I chose not to drink around my son because I grew up watching my father and his brothers get drunk on a continual basis. My father lost control with alcohol and it tore the family apart. It wasn't a nice picture, and it was something I didn't want my child exposed to. I have siblings who have drinking problems, and some of their children have drinking problems.

I'm not much of a drinker anyway, so I figured it was best that I don't have it in my house, or drink around my son. Maybe my son will drink, and get trashed with his teenage friends, maybe he won't, but one thing is for certain, if he does, he didn't learn it from me.

[geni]

Originally posted by Leroy


Do you have teenagers?


No I am a teenager (19). Every day at my uni I see people who have not learned to drink in moderation. They are not going to learn this skill from each other so somewhere along the line they need to be taught how to drink responsibly.

[diddidit]

Regarding the age 21 thing, in Wisconsin, children can drink alcoholic beverages when they are with their parents. I suppose their is a lower age limit to this, but I'm not sure, and it's possible that the whole thing has been made illegal.

did

[zultr]

Originally posted by Leroy

I chose not to drink around my son because I grew up watching my father and his brothers get drunk... it was something I didn't want my child exposed to.

If you don't want your child exposed to adults getting drunk around him, then don't get drunk around him. Why not show him what responsible adults do with alcohol instead?


Maybe my son will drink, and get trashed with his teenage friends, maybe he won't, but one thing is for certain, if he does, he didn't learn it from me.

By ignoring alcohol entirely, aren't you concerned that he isn't learning anything from you on the subject? If you don't ignore it completely but tell your kids about the evil of drink, don't you run the risk of being deemed a hypocrite if they ever do see you drink (or discover a few empties after the Super Bowl)?

It's been my experience that the kids with the most problems don't come from families that drink in moderation in front of their children, they come from the two opposites: those who abuse it, and those who don't mention it and hope things turn out for the best. In print, that looks more harsh than I intend it to be. Trust me.

[Leroy]

Originally posted by zultr

If you don't want your child exposed to adults getting drunk around him, then don't get drunk around him. Why not show him what responsible adults do with alcohol instead?

Why should I do that when not drinking at all sets a better example? I could drink in moderation around him, but that doesn't mean he would do the same. What if, since alcoholism runs deep in my family, he is the one who gets addicted? I decided that it is better that he not think alcohol is something I need in my home. I choose to keep it out of my home. I choose not to drink around him. I seldom drink anyway.

By ignoring alcohol entirely, aren't you concerned that he isn't learning anything from you on the subject? If you don't ignore it completely but tell your kids about the evil of drink, don't you run the risk of being deemed a hypocrite if they ever do see you drink (or discover a few empties after the Super Bowl)?

You are assuming that I ignore the subject of alcohol. We have discussed alcohol many times. We have discussed alcoholism and our family history of it. We have discussed drinking and driving. We have discussed the risks of him becoming an alcoholic, since alcoholism runs on his mothers side of the family also.

We have also discussed the fact that drinking is not a bad thing if it is done responsibly. He is not sheltered from drinking. Our neighbor is drunk everynight. My son spends time with his son. He sees the man drunk at least twice a week, and he thinks it is hilarious. Just because I choose not to drink around him that doesn't mean he is sheltered from alcohol or people who drink.


It's been my experience that the kids with the most problems don't come from families that drink in moderation in front of their children, they come from the two opposites: those who abuse it, and those who don't mention it and hope things turn out for the best. In print, that looks more harsh than I intend it to be. Trust me.

It has been my experience that kids who have the most problems with alcohol, are those who come from families who don't seem to give a crap what their children do. It was that way when I was a teenager, and It seems to be that way today.

Having alcoholics in your family, who abuse this substance, does not mean your children will abuse it, in many cases they don't want any part of it. Being raised in a family where alcohol is never used, doesn't make the teens any more prone to want to drink. What about the families who don't drink because they don't like the taste of it? It isn't an issue.

I honestly believe that the children who do most of the drinking, are those who are left unsupervised, with parents who don't seem to care where they are or what they do. It is not always the case, but very often it is. My son is supervised. I am as active in his life as he allows me to be. We talk. He has to let me know where he is, and who he is with. He is 17 and we have never had an issue with alcohol. He seems more interested in country living, bikes, swimming, fishing, and four wheeling, than going out and partying.

I don't have to drink in front of him to show him how to be a responsible drinker. I can "not" drink and talk to him about responsible drinking.