Quack Treatments and UK Government

[Salerio]

Just got an email from the Prime Minister's Office regarding a petition to regulate quack medicine.

<quote> The Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council (CNHC) does not promote the efficacy of disciplines practised by its registrants. The aim of the CNHC is protection of the public. Registration means that the practitioner has met certain entry standards (in terms of having an accredited qualification or relevant experience) and that they subscribe to a set of professional standards. The public will have the reassurance that the practitioner they choose meets these standards and will be subject to fitness to practise procedures should they behave inappropriately.

Regulation, whether statutory or voluntary, is about protecting the public. For this reason, the Government fully supports the work of the CNHC. If patients choose to use complementary or alternative therapy, the Government’s advice is to choose a practitioner registered with a reputable voluntary registration body such as the CNHC.</quote>

So, the CNHC is to protect the public. But not apparently to protect the public from scams and medicine which doesn't work. It seems it's there just to well, I'm not really sure what they do, but one thing they don't do is to test the efficacy of treatments.

So long as they have a suitable certificate people can happily join the register and dish out their sugar pills and distilled water willy-nilly. This is the government hiding behind quackery and refusing to take up the cudgels and actually do their job when it comes to regulating medicine and really protecting the public by throwing the lot of 'em in jail for fraud. It's as bad a Blackadder sketch

Edmund: Never had anything you doctors didn't try to cure with leeches. A leech on my ear for ear ache, a leech on my bottom for constipation.
Doctor: They're marvellous, aren't they?
Edmund: Well, the bottom one wasn't. I just sat there and squashed it.
Doctor: You know the leech comes to us on the highest authority?
Edmund: Yes. I know that. Dr. Hoffmann of Stuttgart, isn't it?
Doctor: That's right, the great Hoffmann.
Edmund: Owner of the largest leech farm of Europe.

It's like poachers being put in charge of a game-farm.

[Architect]

If folk are daft enough to pay for it, then let them. But not using the NHS.

[Mojo]

So, the CNHC is to protect the public. But not apparently to protect the public from scams and medicine which doesn't work.


No, it's just supposed to ensure that people are sCAMmed in an ethical manner, by sCAMmers with third party insurance.

[Salerio]

It's not just being scammed though, people are dying and becoming very ill because the government refuses to do anything about this. A lot of the blame has to be put on the buffoon Prince Charles.

[chillzero]

Do you mind if I copy that email to blog it?

[funk de fino]

It's not just being scammed though, people are dying and becoming very ill because the government refuses to do anything about this. A lot of the blame has to be put on the buffoon Prince Charles.


evidence?

[Salerio]

Do you mind if I copy that email to blog it?

Sure, I'm starting up mine again, especially now I'm taking a lot of interest in Simon Singh

[Salerio]

evidence?

Well, he is renowned for talking to trees because it helps them grow, and that was 30 years ago.

Complementary therapies should be given a greater role in the NHS, a report commissioned by the Prince of Wales has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4312780.stm

Come on, you can google for charles and his kooky ideas as well as I can.

ETA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5178122.stm

"Some high street homeopaths claim they can prevent malaria, a Newsnight investigation has found.

Secret filming revealed homeopaths were claiming their preparations could be used instead of anti-malarial drugs to protect travellers in high risk areas such as sub-saharan Africa."

As I said, lives are at risk here and this sort of thing should be facing criminal sanctions. Not only this though, chiropractors treating asthma, croup, with "cracking bones" fantastic. Might as well bring out the leeches and get back to blood-letting. Again, you can use google as well as I can.

[funk de fino]

Well, he is renowned for talking to trees because it helps them grow, and that was 30 years ago.

Complementary therapies should be given a greater role in the NHS, a report commissioned by the Prince of Wales has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4312780.stm

Come on, you can google for charles and his kooky ideas as well as I can.

I know he has silly ideas, I was not looking for evidence of that. I am asking for evidence he is to blame for anything.

ETA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5178122.stm

"Some high street homeopaths claim they can prevent malaria, a Newsnight investigation has found.

Secret filming revealed homeopaths were claiming their preparations could be used instead of anti-malarial drugs to protect travellers in high risk areas such as sub-saharan Africa."

As I said, lives are at risk here and this sort of thing should be facing criminal sanctions. Not only this though, chiropractors treating asthma, croup, with "cracking bones" fantastic. Might as well bring out the leeches and get back to blood-letting. Again, you can use google as well as I can.

Pathetic. People choose to use homeopathic medicine knowing it may or may not work. The medicine is not killing people. Try again.

I used to take homeopathic stuff for hayfever when at my wits end. It did not work. I stopped taking it. It worked for my friend however.

I guess you cannot find anyone who has died from it eh?

[Oliver]

No, Marc: you claimed that complementary medicine was effective. I've called you on it. Provide evidence. Put up, or shut up.


I've learned that Acupuncture is provided by many European national Healthinsurances, even if there is no knowledge about how exactly Acupuncture works, which could indeed mean that it's just quackery. Yet, the isurers pay for things like that because people react positive to it, which indeed may be just a placebo-effect. But obviously those insurer don't care if it's cheaper than traditional long-time therapies if it works somehow.

And of course, some people simply need quackery because their belief in an alternative therapie brings them back to a happier and healthier life. That fact doesn't mean that all alternative therapies are scam to rip off people. And I think that "practitioner registered with a reputable voluntary registration body such as the CNHC" means that they keep an eye on their registered practioners to avoid rip-offs.

[Darat]

Folks this is the "Politics" section if you wish to discuss the effectiveness of complementary medicines take it to the "G&P" or "Science..." section.

[Lothian]

I've learned that Acupuncture is provided by many European national Healthinsurances, even if there is no knowledge about how exactly Acupuncture works, which could indeed mean that it's just quackery. Yet, the isurers pay for things like that because people react positive to it, which indeed may be just a placebo-effect. But obviously those insurer don't care if it's cheaper than traditional long-time therapies if it works somehow.
Insurers don't care if a product works. They are in the business of making money. They will look at all the statistics; fees illness rates, recovery rates average treatment lengths etc and set thier (with accupunture insurance) premium at a rate which exceeds the likely outgoings.

[Salerio]

>I know he has silly ideas, I was not looking for evidence of that. I am asking for evidence he is to blame for anything.

Who said he was to blame for everything? I stated a lot of the blame should be directed at him. It's like Mugabe with his majik herbs for curing AIDS, who is to blame when you have the head or future head of a country actually advocating and pushing quackery medicine? No matter what scientists think or state people listen to their leaders, and if the leaders are spouting nonsense it gets listened to. Therefore a lot of the blame does lie at Charles' feet. This is what a public school education in classics gets you, bet he didn't do well in physics, chemistry, biology, but he can read greak and latin like a good 'un. Instead of pontificating about medicine he should be arguing with scholars about the correct translation of the bible of something, at least that's relatively harmless so long as he stays out of the press.

>Pathetic. People choose to use homeopathic medicine knowing it may or may not work. The medicine is not killing people. Try again.

If it doesn't work, and people are taking the stuff *on the advice of* someone they believe is medically qualified (lots of certificates on the wall and registered with some kind of council) gives them the stuff instead of real medicine. These people are dishing out treatments known to be fraudulent and it IS killing people and putting people at risk. Did you actually read the Newsnight report? Sugar pills being handed out instead of anti-malarials, it's criminal (or should be).

Being wishy-washy and justifying it by saying that the sugar pills aren't killing anyone is just hiding behind the whitewashed walls of your local quack-joint. No, the pills do not directly kill them, but the fact they are given instead of real stuff that works does. The so-called medicine in the entirety does kill and put people at risk.

[Darat]

Claims about effectiveness of complimentary medicine moved to: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=145335

[Oliver]

Insurers don't care if a product works. They are in the business of making money. They will look at all the statistics; fees illness rates, recovery rates average treatment lengths etc and set thier (with accupunture insurance) premium at a rate which exceeds the likely outgoings.


Yes, but in contrast to commercial Insurers, the UHC and all the other federal health systems focus isn't just about money but also about the effectiness to keep health-taxes low and people healthy. So they don't pay for every alternative treatment just for the sake of saving [or making] money. That's also what the "quack medicine letter" does state concerning the practitioners:

The aim of the CNHC is protection of the public. Registration means that the practitioner has met certain entry standards (in terms of having an accredited qualification or relevant experience) and that they subscribe to a set of professional standards.


So what are those "professional standards" before we even think about speculating about this issue even further?

[funk de fino]

Who said he was to blame for everything? I stated a lot of the blame should be directed at him. It's like Mugabe with his majik herbs for curing AIDS, who is to blame when you have the head or future head of a country actually advocating and pushing quackery medicine? No matter what scientists think or state people listen to their leaders, and if the leaders are spouting nonsense it gets listened to. Therefore a lot of the blame does lie at Charles' feet. This is what a public school education in classics gets you, bet he didn't do well in physics, chemistry, biology, but he can read greak and latin like a good 'un. Instead of pontificating about medicine he should be arguing with scholars about the correct translation of the bible of something, at least that's relatively harmless so long as he stays out of the press.

Are you just playing silly buggers? Since when did anything equal everything. Get a grip.

If it doesn't work, and people are taking the stuff *on the advice of* someone they believe is medically qualified (lots of certificates on the wall and registered with some kind of council) gives them the stuff instead of real medicine. These people are dishing out treatments known to be fraudulent and it IS killing people and putting people at risk. Did you actually read the Newsnight report? Sugar pills being handed out instead of anti-malarials, it's criminal (or should be).

Bolded - I do not disagree with. Howeveer that is not what your post is about. Please link to the evidence that backs up your OP claims.

Being wishy-washy and justifying it by saying that the sugar pills aren't killing anyone is just hiding behind the whitewashed walls of your local quack-joint. No, the pills do not directly kill them, but the fact they are given instead of real stuff that works does. The so-called medicine in the entirety does kill and put people at risk.

So your claim was wrong then, you have no evidence.

[Salerio]

Folks this is the "Politics" section if you wish to discuss the effectiveness of complementary medicines take it to the "G&P" or "Science..." section.

Sorry Darat. It was kind of 50/50 but I was really emphasizing the governments response in reply to the original petition to sort out this stuff. It was inevitable it was going to get sidetracked I suppose :)

The question is what can be done about government who refuse to take a stand against this stuff. Blogging to raise the issues, Simon's case is helping raise profile too, I've faxed my MP (lot of good that will do). It's not often I post here, but the wish-washy reply just got my goat.

[Professor Yaffle]

Re Charlie being to blame for anything:


An advert for herbal remedies made by Prince Charles' Duchy Originals company was misleading, a watchdog has ruled. An e-mail advert said they offered "alternative and natural ways of treating common ailments such as colds, low moods and digestive discomfort".
But the Advertising Standards Authority said it failed to state that the claims were not based on scientific evidence.

Also, I have spoken to people who used homeopathy and stated it couldn't be nonsense because the Royal family use it.

[Asolepius]

I guess you cannot find anyone who has died from it eh?No? Try this (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/05/homeopathy-kills/).

[Professor Yaffle]

Not dead, but brain damaged, after following the advice of a complementary therapist:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/115909.php

[Salerio]

So your claim was wrong then, you have no evidence.

How do you do multiple quotes?

Anyway ... No my claim is not wrong. If I were to be in an office with certificates on the wall and you came to me because you had (say) necrotizing fasciitis and I gave you some sugar pills telling you it'll keep the infection away. Would you sue me when you get your leg amputated? Yet it wasn't the pills that caused it. This is exactly what happens when people get sugar pills as an anti-malarial. You'd sue me because everyone knows you should be given antibiotics for your treatment just as everyone knows you need chlorquinine (say) to suppress malaria.

To state "but it's not the pills" is factitious and disingenuous. It's the whole of the false 'medicine' that's making you not take stuff that's going to work. This is why it has to be down to government to do something about this kind of thing.

If anyone is peddling an alternative treatment for anything then it should be regulated by a government body (see - we can get it back on topic). Either the treatment is doing nothing in which case there needs to be prosecutions for fraud, or it's acting as a real medicine in which case it should be controlled as a real medicine. That's the real issue with the governments "we'll wash our hands of it all" policy. Medicine needs to be controlled, monitored and regulated, no exceptions for alternatives, it stands or falls by hard scientific evidence.

[chillzero]

(multi-quote is the box next to 'Quote' with the " in it)